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kamani
26-01-13, 02:43
To understand the IE languages expansion, we might need to study pre-IE languages in Europe. The best candidate pre-IE language is basque since it is still spoken today. Another pre-IE population in europe are the pelasgians, the earliest known inhabitants of the balkans. So my attempt is to compare pelasgian and basque. Since we don't know much about pelasgian, I am making an assumption that we will find traces of it in modern albanian. After digging in online dictionaries for about 1/2 hour, I think I found some suprising similarities.

dog - txakur, zakur (basque) - zagar (albanian)
mountain - mendi(basque) - mali(albanian)
forest - pinudi (basque) - pylli (albanian)
nut - intxaur (basque) - arre (albanian)
soldier - gudari (basque) - ushtari (albanian)

If I am on the right track with this, this would mean that Basque is the survivor of a family of languages that once were used in most of Europe. Since the basque people are 88% R1b, and many scientists claim that R1b has been in europe before the bronze age and IE-languages expansion, the whole R1a+R1b expansion in Europe with IE-languages seems flawed. Which would mean that we don't really have a model how the IE languages expanded in Europe.

Taranis
26-01-13, 10:35
To understand the IE languages expansion, we might need to study pre-IE languages in Europe. The best candidate pre-IE language is basque since it is still spoken today. Another pre-IE population in europe are the pelasgians, the earliest known inhabitants of the balkans. So my attempt is to compare pelasgian and basque. Since we don't know much about pelasgian, I am making an assumption that we will find traces of it in modern albanian.

I have my doubts about the validity of the very concept of "Pelasgian" (that is, a common pre-IE language on the Balkans), and honestly I find any connections of "Pelasgian" with Albanian spurious. By the original meaning (how the Greeks used the word), it either refered to the ancestors of the Greeks or to the first people that lived in Greece before the Greeks (which may not be mutually exclusive). In the linguistic sense, it may make sense to dubb the Pre-Greek substrate "Pelasgian", but it's an unfortunate term since there certainly was not "one" Pelasgian language but several: Greek has borrowings from Anatolian (Luwic), Semitic and very probably also the as-of-yet-undeciphered Minoan language. You might talk about 'Pelasgian languages' (plural), but considering how they were obviously not related with each other, this seems without purpose. If the "Pelasgian" hypothesis in the sense of a common Balkans pre-IE substrate was correct, we would expect a common substrate found in both Greek and Albanian, but I haven't seen a convincing example of this yet.

Independent of this, it's possible (and probable) that there are pre-IE substrate words in Albanian, but there is no connection what so ever with the so-called 'Pelasgians'.

So let's see...


After digging in online dictionaries for about 1/2 hour, I think I found some suprising similarities.

dog - txakur, zakur (basque) - zagar (albanian)
mountain - mendi(basque) - mali(albanian)
forest - pinudi (basque) - pylli (albanian)
nut - intxaur (basque) - arre (albanian)
soldier - gudari (basque) - ushtari (albanian)

I don't want to discourage you (rather the opposite), but to me, I'm afraid, most of the words look only superficially similar:

- "mendi" requires an earlier *bendi.

- "pinudi" is very probably a Latin loanword, from Latin "pinetum" (grove).

- "intxaur" ("walnut") is probably a compound word - see "hur" ("hazelnut").

- "gudari" is a compound word, derived from "gudu" ("battle"). It is formed in a similar way as for instance "edan" (to drink) > edari (beverage). Albanian "ushtri" is usually thought to be derived from Latin "hostis" - in any case the two words look not particularly similar to me.

On the flip side, I have noticed these two peculiar words which have no parallel outside Albanian:

- "hekur" (iron)
- "xeheror" (ore, mineral)


If I am on the right track with this, this would mean that Basque is the survivor of a family of languages that once were used in most of Europe. Since the basque people are 88% R1b, and many scientists claim that R1b has been in europe before the bronze age and IE-languages expansion, the whole R1a+R1b expansion in Europe with IE-languages seems flawed. Which would mean that we don't really have a model how the IE languages expanded in Europe.

That's a lot of assumptions. The oldest find of R1b thus far comes from a Beaker-Bell site in Germany, but it's absent from the various Neolithic sites in western and central Europe - in so far I find the evidence for a founder effect in western Europe quite compelling. If R1b was anywhere in Europe before, it would have been the Balkans (L23 cluster on the Balkans, which is sitting outside of Western Europe L51, however). I'm also not very convinced on the Basque-R1b connection, it's also possible that the Basques were formerly predominantly I2-M26.

Kentel
26-01-13, 12:16
To understand the IE languages expansion, we might need to study pre-IE languages in Europe. The best candidate pre-IE language is basque since it is still spoken today.

I agree. I am currently working on Basque and trying to find connections between Basque and its neighbouring languages (Gaulish, French, Breton, and Spanish) and see which features connected with Basque could be substratic. I have already a few ideas.


Another pre-IE population in europe are the pelasgians, the earliest known inhabitants of the balkans. So my attempt is to compare pelasgian and basque. Since we don't know much about pelasgian, I am making an assumption that we will find traces of it in modern albanian. After digging in online dictionaries for about 1/2 hour, I think I found some suprising similarities.

dog - txakur, zakur (basque) - zagar (albanian)
mountain - mendi(basque) - mali(albanian)
forest - pinudi (basque) - pylli (albanian)
nut - intxaur (basque) - arre (albanian)
soldier - gudari (basque) - ushtari (albanian)

Excellent. The zakur/zagar especially is really puzzling.


If I am on the right track with this, this would mean that Basque is the survivor of a family of languages that once were used in most of Europe. Since the basque people are 88% R1b, and many scientists claim that R1b has been in europe before the bronze age and IE-languages expansion, the whole R1a+R1b expansion in Europe with IE-languages seems flawed. Which would mean that we don't really have a model how the IE languages expanded in Europe.

This is Venneman's hypothesis too. I am not sure what to think about that. I agree with you for the R1b. LeBrok suggested different waves of R1b penetration into Europe (attested by their haplogroups), that one being pre-IE and some others being IE.

From a linguistic point of view, I think that Venneman (and you as well) rely too much on languages known to us today. How much prehistorical languages disappeared, about which we know nothing ? The idea of Basque-speaking Europe, does not look realistic to me. As for the PIE warriors, we have a tendency to oversimplify situations which were certainly very complex. But this is only a feeling.

In any case, your idea about working the Albanian dictionary and compare it to Basque is very interesting. Did you think about Etruscan too ? I will start working on Etruscan in a few days.

MOESAN
26-01-13, 14:07
I agree. I am currently working on Basque and trying to find connections between Basque and its neighbouring languages (Gaulish, French, Breton, and Spanish) and see which features connected with Basque could be substratic. I have already a few ideas.



Excellent. The zakur/zagar especially is really puzzling.



This is Venneman's hypothesis too. I am not sure what to think about that. I agree with you for the R1b. LeBrok suggested different waves of R1b penetration into Europe (attested by their haplogroups), that one being pre-IE and some others being IE.

From a linguistic point of view, I think that Venneman (and you as well) rely too much on languages known to us today. How much prehistorical languages disappeared, about which we know nothing ? The idea of Basque-speaking Europe, does not look realistic to me. As for the PIE warriors, we have a tendency to oversimplify situations which were certainly very complex. But this is only a feeling.

In any case, your idea about working the Albanian dictionary and compare it to Basque is very interesting. Did you think about Etruscan too ? I will start working on Etruscan in a few days.

I think (for now) too that Y-R1b was introduced 2 times in Europe, BUT the obstacle is that the most of western european ligneages seam not too old and being cognates of a same little number of upstream ancestors living between N-Italy, E-France and SW-Germany at some stage - W-Europe for me does not show an important dicotomy - I believe the 2 streams and different occurrences of R1b would be around Balkans and Greece...
hard to prove - the datation of the W-European first ancestors arriving is not so easy to do and so their affiliation to an I-E or a pre-I-E wave - we lack more ancient DNA studies about Meso-Neolithic-Bronze ages transition -

kamani
26-01-13, 14:28
I agree with a lot of the points you make.



The idea of Basque-speaking Europe, does not look realistic to me. As for the PIE warriors, we have a tendency to oversimplify situations which were certainly very complex. But this is only a feeling.


I think just like the IE language family took over europe, a pre-IE language family might have taken over parts of europe before it. Basque was part of that family. Genetically these pre-IE people were also considerably R1b (disputable), which breaks the whole R1b-IE exclusive connection and complicates things more. In any case I believe the IE family came from only one of the neolithic R-cultures of east-europe/west-asia; the one that became the most advanced militarily.



In any case, your idea about working the Albanian dictionary and compare it to Basque is very interesting. Did you think about Etruscan too ? I will start working on Etruscan in a few days.
since Etruria is in between albania and spain, it is a candidate for finding simmilarities.
The difficulty with etruscan is that it probably has heavily influenced latin, and latin has
influenced everything else (not to mention spanish). So now it is hard to tell what part of latin is pre-IE etruscan. Also, etruscan is also considered IE by many, which leaves us with pre-etruscan as a pre-IE candidate :).

Some info about etruscan from wikipedia:
"Complex consonant clusters
Speech featured a heavy stress on the first syllable of a word, causing syncopation by weakening of the remaining vowels, which then were not represented in writing: Alcsntre for Alexandros, Rasna for Rasena.[25] This speech habit is one explanation of the Etruscan "impossible consonant clusters." The resonants, however, may have been syllabic, accounting for some of the clusters (see below under Consonants). In other cases, the scribe sometimes inserted a vowel: Greek Hēraklēs became Hercle by syncopation and then was expanded to Herecele. Pallottino[29] regarded this variation in vowels as "instability in the quality of vowels" and accounted for the second phase (e.g. Herecele) as "vowel harmony, i.e., of the assimilation of vowels in neighboring syllables ....""

Interestingly, albanian also exhibits considerably "stress on the first syllable and consonant clusters".
For example: Hercle (etr) - Herkuli(alb), are more simmilar to each-other than to Hēraklēs (greek).

Hal Fao
26-01-13, 14:31
On the flip side, I have noticed these two peculiar words which have no parallel outside Albanian:

- "hekur" (iron)
- "xeheror" (ore, mineral).
I wonder for their etymology. In modern Albanian "heq" (in Gheg: "hek") means "extract" (v);
"hequr" (in Gheg: "hekur") means "extracted".
Is it possible to be a coincidence?

Kentel
26-01-13, 14:42
I think (for now) too that Y-R1b was introduced 2 times in Europe, BUT the obstacle is that the most of western european ligneages seam not too old and being cognates of a same little number of upstream ancestors living between N-Italy, E-France and SW-Germany at some stage - W-Europe for me does not show an important dicotomy - I believe the 2 streams and different occurrences of R1b would be around Balkans and Greece...
hard to prove - the datation of the W-European first ancestors arriving is not so easy to do and so their affiliation to an I-E or a pre-I-E wave - we lack more ancient DNA studies about Meso-Neolithic-Bronze ages transition -

And we shouldn't forget the previous waves of I and G, whose languages probably had an impact on the languages of the newcomers. As long as substrata are considered, they are important too. But you're right, we lack accurate datings.

kamani
26-01-13, 15:30
I might have found the historical connection between basque-etruscan-albanian. The key is "Cardium Pottery" neolithic culture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_Pottery
It certainly fits very well with the expansion of E-v13 and the R1b-269* (parent clade) through anatolia.

Kardu
26-01-13, 17:53
Excellent. The zakur/zagar especially is really puzzling.





Old Georgian ძაღ-ალ Dzag-al - Dog

kamani
26-01-13, 19:43
I wonder for their etymology. In modern Albanian "heq" (in Gheg: "hek") means "extract" (v);
"hequr" (in Gheg: "hekur") means "extracted".
Is it possible to be a coincidence?
I found some more albanian - basque similar words:

flower - lore (basque)- lule (alb.)
eat - ano (food supply ) - ha
circle - korru (basque) - korr (harvest in a circular motion with a sicle alb.)
square - karratu (basque) - katror (alb.)
house - etzea (basque) - e zene (occupied alb.)
edge, border - hegi (basque) - hendek (alb.)
head - buru (basque) - burim (source alb.)
exchange - truka (basque)- truk (trick alb.) I guess this is close to english too.
bird - txori (basque) - zok, zog (alb.)
luck - zori (basque) - zorr (barely, luckily alb.)

Eldritch
26-01-13, 21:03
Some of you should really stop playing pseudolinguistis.

Taranis
26-01-13, 22:06
I found some more albanian - basque similar words:

flower - lore (basque)- lule (alb.)
eat - ano (food supply ) - ha
circle - korru (basque) - korr (harvest in a circular motion with a sicle alb.)
square - karratu (basque) - katror (alb.)
house - etzea (basque) - e zene (occupied alb.)
edge, border - hegi (basque) - hendek (alb.)
head - buru (basque) - burim (source alb.)
exchange - truka (basque)- truk (trick alb.) I guess this is close to english too.
bird - txori (basque) - zok, zog (alb.)
luck - zori (basque) - zorr (barely, luckily alb.)



Some of you should really stop playing pseudolinguistis.

Kamani, I would have put it more diplomatically than eldritch, but he's right. As I elaborated here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28301-OFFTOPIC-from-quot-Are-R1a-and-R1b-really-Indo-Europeans-quot?p=402829&viewfull=1#post402829), there are very clear, rigorous rules of how one establishes a relationship between two languages. You're comparing superficially similar words in modern Albanian and modern Basque without considering the changes that these languages made in the past (which was the point of my earlier post), and without considering if the words you perceive as similar exist elsewhere. If there was a relationship between Basque and a hypothetical pre-IE substrate in Albanian, the words would have thousands of years of separate development.

With regards for the Etruscans, while they spoke a non-Indo-European language, there's considerable genetic evidence that the Etruscans immigrated to Italy from Anatolia:

The mystery of Etruscan origins: novel clues from Bos taurus mitochondrial DNA (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/274/1614/1175.long)

Mitochondrial DNA variation of modern Tuscans supports the near eastern origin of Etruscans (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17357081)

In other words, they were not pre-Indo-Europeans in Italy.

kamani
27-01-13, 01:27
Kamani, I would have put it more diplomatically than eldritch, but he's right. As I elaborated here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28301-OFFTOPIC-from-quot-Are-R1a-and-R1b-really-Indo-Europeans-quot?p=402829&viewfull=1#post402829), there are very clear, rigorous rules of how one establishes a relationship between two languages. You're comparing superficially similar words in modern Albanian and modern Basque without considering the changes that these languages made in the past (which was the point of my earlier post), and without considering if the words you perceive as similar exist elsewhere. If there was a relationship between Basque and a hypothetical pre-IE substrate in Albanian, the words would have thousands of years of separate development.




Maybe I came of as a little pretentious, ofcourse I know that I am presenting nothing academically rigorous. I have neither the tools
nor the time for that; if I had a rigorous study I wouldn't post it for free on a forum but publish it and get
some academic credit for it. I am just talking from the intuitive position of somebody who speaks 4+
IE languages, albanian being one of them. I am fully aware that a lot of my connections might fall
under a linguistic study. Whoever is a linguist can take my ideas and run with them,
or choose to ignore them.



With regards for the Etruscans, while they spoke a non-Indo-European language, there's considerable genetic evidence that the Etruscans immigrated to Italy from Anatolia:

The mystery of Etruscan origins: novel clues from Bos taurus mitochondrial DNA (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/274/1614/1175.long)

Mitochondrial DNA variation of modern Tuscans supports the near eastern origin of Etruscans (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17357081)

In other words, they were not pre-Indo-Europeans in Italy.

That doesn't contradict my point, I am also saying they came from anatolia, as part of the Cardium Pottery culture.

nordicwarrior
27-01-13, 05:30
I don't think you sound pretentious, I appreciate both your and Yetos's contributions. As an utter novice, I pick-up interesting tidbits like "blood tax" and Pelasgians--and this isn't a peer review journal so the free flow of ideas between "citizen scientists" should be encouraged. (I will say peer reviewed journals might acutally benefit from browsing through these threads, because I've seen few gems bantered about here on Eupedia.)

You mentioned speaking four languages... this might be an idea for a seperate thread, but what four languages would give the best understanding of European history? My vote would be 1. Modern English 2. Modern Albanian 3. Old Norse 4. Ancient Greek (A working knowledge of Basque would be nice too.)

nordicwarrior
27-01-13, 05:39
Albanian would almost have to be toward the top of the list because of it's unique genetic consistency. Slices of E, G2, I1, I2, J1, R1a, and R1b.

kamani
27-01-13, 09:35
what four languages would give the best understanding of European history? My vote would be 1. Modern English 2. Modern Albanian 3. Old Norse 4. Ancient Greek (A working knowledge of Basque would be nice too.)

That's a good choice. I would also add something from the latin family, like italian or spanish.

Taranis
28-01-13, 18:41
Maybe I came of as a little pretentious, ofcourse I know that I am presenting nothing academically rigorous. I have neither the tools
nor the time for that; if I had a rigorous study I wouldn't post it for free on a forum but publish it and get
some academic credit for it. I am just talking from the intuitive position of somebody who speaks 4+
IE languages, albanian being one of them. I am fully aware that a lot of my connections might fall
under a linguistic study. Whoever is a linguist can take my ideas and run with them,
or choose to ignore them.

I could go into greater length, but, I suggest nontheless that you might want to check out this article (http://www.zompist.com/chance.htm), which goes into great detail of the problems. ;-)


That doesn't contradict my point, I am also saying they came from anatolia, as part of the Cardium Pottery culture.

It does. We are talking about an early iron age immigration, while Cardium Pottery was in the Neolithic. There is also the Lemnian language (http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Eteocretan/Lemnos.gif), which is staunchingly similar to Etruscan. The two languages couldn't be so similar if the common ancestor was spoken in the 7th or 6th millennium BC.

kamani
28-01-13, 19:18
It does. We are talking about an early iron age immigration, while Cardium Pottery was in the Neolithic. There is also the Lemnian language (http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Eteocretan/Lemnos.gif), which is staunchingly similar to Etruscan. The two languages couldn't be so similar if the common ancestor was spoken in the 7th or 6th millennium BC.

The article did not give any proof of the time-period when the migration took place. Wikipedia also confirms this:

Another team of Italian researchers showed that the mtDNA of cattle (Bos taurus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bos_taurus)) in modern Tuscany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuscany) is different from that of cattle normally found elsewhere in Italy, and even in Europe as a whole.[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_origins#cite_note-27)[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_origins#cite_note-28)[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_origins#cite_note-29) An autochthonous population that diverged genetically was suggested as a possibility by Cavalli-Sforza.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_origins#cite_note-cavalli-sforza-history-2) The mtDNA is similar to that of cattle typically found in the Near East. Many tribes who have migrated in the past have typically taken their livestock with them as they moved. This bovine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bovine) mtDNA study suggests that at least some people whose descendants were Etruscans made their way to Italy from Anatolia or other parts of the Near East. However, the study gives no clue as to when they might have done so. There is the possibility that Etruscan civilization arose locally with maritime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing)contacts from all across the Mediterranean, and the genetic presence could have been all along since the Neolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic) and the expansion of the seaborne Cardium Pottery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_Pottery) cultures of same origin.

The Lemnian-etruscan connection is another confirmation to my point, because Lemnos is on the maritime ways of Cardium Pottery culture, and Cardium Pottery spread along the coasts in a maritime fashion.

Kentel
29-01-13, 16:24
Maybe I came of as a little pretentious, ofcourse I know that I am presenting nothing academically rigorous. I have neither the tools
nor the time for that; if I had a rigorous study I wouldn't post it for free on a forum but publish it and get
some academic credit for it. I am just talking from the intuitive position of somebody who speaks 4+
IE languages, albanian being one of them. I am fully aware that a lot of my connections might fall
under a linguistic study. Whoever is a linguist can take my ideas and run with them,
or choose to ignore them.


You would be surprised by the lack of objectivity and the absurdities of some speeches if you attended academic linguistic conferences. You have already a good insight into this when reading etymological dictionaries... Linguists are generally not likely to question unproven ideas upon which there is a common agreement (ex: the PIE left the Pontic steppe around 3000 BC). Moreover, ideology underlies many arguments, and when we are talking about the Indo-Europeans, their language, their homeland and their way of life, we fall very rapidly into ideological quicksand.

Taranis
30-01-13, 13:52
The Lemnian-etruscan connection is another confirmation to my point, because Lemnos is on the maritime ways of Cardium Pottery culture, and Cardium Pottery spread along the coasts in a maritime fashion.


It is not a confirmation rather the opposite, because, as I elaborated:


It does. We are talking about an early iron age immigration, while Cardium Pottery was in the Neolithic. There is also the Lemnian language (http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Eteocretan/Lemnos.gif), which is staunchingly similar to Etruscan. The two languages couldn't be so similar if the common ancestor was spoken in the 7th or 6th millennium BC.

Lemnian and Etruscan are very similar (perhaps Catalan vs. Castillian Spanish). If there was a Cardium Pottery connection it would date back in the 7th/6th millennium BC, and it would be extremely unlikely for two languages to be so similar. If I were to hazard a guess, I would expect a similarity of the degree at such deep time to be comparable to the difference between, for example, Hebrew and Hausa.

Yetos
30-01-13, 15:33
@Kamani

Etruscans were nemed by Greeks as Thyrrenians Thyrsenians etc,

the sea from Sardinia to central- North Italy carries their name Thyrennian sea,
and 1 possible explanation is that Adriatic is after Hatria-Atria Etruscan or Mycenean city, (the other is after Greek abra and adra sea, soft and rough sea)


ETruscans can also be connected with sea peoples, or are the same.

their move to Italy is about same time with sea peoples,
Means after the Troyan war, and almost same time with Minoan Navy decline (worked as traffic police in East mediterennean) and Mycenae destruction,
that put devastation of Etruscans to Italy after 1200 BC to almost 900 BC when we have the Dorian descent and the Early olympic in Ellanas river
the final move of Etruscan speaking people is about 500 BC from Lemnos
Cardium pottery is milleniums before, means it made its circle much before Etruscans,
Cardium pottery reach Italy 4-5 milleniums before Etruscans,
so we cannot combine these 2 events cause Cardium pottery existed in Italy when Etruscans went

there are threads about them in the forum, with very interesting historical linguistic and gennetical data.

kamani
30-01-13, 17:32
Lemnian and Etruscan are very similar (perhaps Catalan vs. Castillian Spanish). If there was a Cardium Pottery connection it would date back in the 7th/6th millennium BC, and it would be extremely unlikely for two languages to be so similar. If I were to hazard a guess, I would expect a similarity of the degree at such deep time to be comparable to the difference between, for example, Hebrew and Hausa.

Assuming they're that simmilar, that would mean Lemnos was an etruscan colony. If you consider the non-IE pelasgians in the middle as a possible connection, Etruria and Lemnos do not seem that far. However this connection was severely weakened when the IE Illyrians and Mychaneans came in the balkans. Cardium pottery is still a candidate in the ethnogenesis of etruscans because of G and E V-13 hg, maybe as a contribution from an older neolithic crowd of the area.

Pixelless
03-02-13, 17:44
To understand the IE languages expansion, we might need to study pre-IE languages in Europe. The best candidate pre-IE language is basque since it is still spoken today. Another pre-IE population in europe are the pelasgians, the earliest known inhabitants of the balkans. So my attempt is to compare pelasgian and basque. Since we don't know much about pelasgian, I am making an assumption that we will find traces of it in modern albanian. After digging in online dictionaries for about 1/2 hour, I think I found some suprising similarities.

dog - txakur, zakur (basque) - zagar (albanian)
mountain - mendi(basque) - mali(albanian)
forest - pinudi (basque) - pylli (albanian)
nut - intxaur (basque) - arre (albanian)
soldier - gudari (basque) - ushtari (albanian)

If I am on the right track with this, this would mean that Basque is the survivor of a family of languages that once were used in most of Europe. Since the basque people are 88% R1b, and many scientists claim that R1b has been in europe before the bronze age and IE-languages expansion, the whole R1a+R1b expansion in Europe with IE-languages seems flawed. Which would mean that we don't really have a model how the IE languages expanded in Europe.
Zagar seems to be a satem version of the English dog.
The word mendi is much more similar to the Spanish montaña or the English mountain rather than the Albanian mali.
Pinudi seems to have been derived from the Latin Pinoideae(Different types of pines), pinu means pine in Basque. While pylli seems related to forest.
Intxaur and arrë are quite similar to the English walnut.
I don't know the etymology of the word ushtar, but gudari is more similar even to the English soldier, or other words like guard etc.


I have my doubts about the validity of the very concept of "Pelasgian" (that is, a common pre-IE language on the Balkans), and honestly I find any connections of "Pelasgian" with Albanian spurious. By the original meaning (how the Greeks used the word), it either refered to the ancestors of the Greeks or to the first people that lived in Greece before the Greeks (which may not be mutually exclusive). In the linguistic sense, it may make sense to dubb the Pre-Greek substrate "Pelasgian", but it's an unfortunate term since there certainly was not "one" Pelasgian language but several: Greek has borrowings from Anatolian (Luwic), Semitic and very probably also the as-of-yet-undeciphered Minoan language. You might talk about 'Pelasgian languages' (plural), but considering how they were obviously not related with each other, this seems without purpose. If the "Pelasgian" hypothesis in the sense of a common Balkans pre-IE substrate was correct, we would expect a common substrate found in both Greek and Albanian, but I haven't seen a convincing example of this yet.

Independent of this, it's possible (and probable) that there are pre-IE substrate words in Albanian, but there is no connection what so ever with the so-called 'Pelasgians'.

So let's see...



I don't want to discourage you (rather the opposite), but to me, I'm afraid, most of the words look only superficially similar:

- "mendi" requires an earlier *bendi.

- "pinudi" is very probably a Latin loanword, from Latin "pinetum" (grove).

- "intxaur" ("walnut") is probably a compound word - see "hur" ("hazelnut").

- "gudari" is a compound word, derived from "gudu" ("battle"). It is formed in a similar way as for instance "edan" (to drink) > edari (beverage). Albanian "ushtri" is usually thought to be derived from Latin "hostis" - in any case the two words look not particularly similar to me.

On the flip side, I have noticed these two peculiar words which have no parallel outside Albanian:

- "hekur" (iron)
- "xeheror" (ore, mineral)



That's a lot of assumptions. The oldest find of R1b thus far comes from a Beaker-Bell site in Germany, but it's absent from the various Neolithic sites in western and central Europe - in so far I find the evidence for a founder effect in western Europe quite compelling. If R1b was anywhere in Europe before, it would have been the Balkans (L23 cluster on the Balkans, which is sitting outside of Western Europe L51, however). I'm also not very convinced on the Basque-R1b connection, it's also possible that the Basques were formerly predominantly I2-M26.
Hekur seems related to the Spanish hierro and even the English hard.
Xeheror is strange, but both words that you mentioned seems to be related, first we have ore <> xeheror and than we have mineral <> xeheror.
I guess you answered your own questions.


I wonder for their etymology. In modern Albanian "heq" (in Gheg: "hek") means "extract" (v);
"hequr" (in Gheg: "hekur") means "extracted".
Is it possible to be a coincidence?
Maybe, or maybe not. Notice than as you yourself pointed out, heq means extract. Also I don't know if you're not actually Geg or are trying to fool the forum members, but in Geg extracted is said hekun and not hekur.


Old Georgian ძაღ-ალ Dzag-al - Dog
Exactly Dzag-al <> Dog.


I found some more albanian - basque similar words:

flower - lore (basque)- lule (alb.)
eat - ano (food supply ) - ha
circle - korru (basque) - korr (harvest in a circular motion with a sicle alb.)
square - karratu (basque) - katror (alb.)
house - etzea (basque) - e zene (occupied alb.)
edge, border - hegi (basque) - hendek (alb.)
head - buru (basque) - burim (source alb.)
exchange - truka (basque)- truk (trick alb.) I guess this is close to english too.
bird - txori (basque) - zok, zog (alb.)
luck - zori (basque) - zorr (barely, luckily alb.)
:petrified:
Well, lule is much more related to the English flower. While the Basque lore seems to derive from the Spanish flor(flower).
Food supply in Basque is said elikagaien hornidura.
This circle thing was really funny. First, circle in Basque is said zirkulu and that explains itself. While as you said të korrësh means to harvest, and it's very similar to the English correspondent.
The Albanian katror derives from the Latin quattor(four).
Etxea is no way related to the Albanian zënë(busy or occupied, not in the military meaning), etxea seems to have derived from the Latin tectum(rooftop).
:lmao:<about this hendek thing. Do you realize that hendek is a Turkish word right? And it has been adopted from Albanian not too much time ago. While hegi and edge seems quite similar.
How are the words head and source related to each others? Buru(head) seems to have the same origin as the Albanian burrë(man), both from the Spanish hombre(man). While burim(source) has the same origin as the Dutch bron(source).
After reading this truk thing I'm starting to have concerns about you, or you're a ***** or a total i...
...well, totally iiiiignorant in linguistics. The Albanian truk cannot even be understood from the old generations, because it's a word that has entered in the Albanian language after the fall of the communist dictatorship via the French truc(trick). On the other side the Basque truka is a lot similar to the English trade or even the Albanian treg(market).
The Albanian(satem) zog(bird) is related to the Scandinavian(centum) languages, the Danish and Norwegian fugl(bird) and the Swedish fågel(bird). On the other side txori(bird) seems to be related a lot to the Albanian sorrë(crow).
The Basque zori(luck) probably derives from the Latin fors(chance), while the Albanian me zorr(barely) derives from the Turkish zar zor (barely).

Conclusion you just made yourself look ridiculous and made me involuntary find by mistakes two clear similarities between Albanian and Basque.
It was more easy for me to find them by mistake than you by intention. Linguistics is a science and in science you study the evidence and came up with a conclusion and not vice-versa, that would be religion. Your claims are pure myth.

kamani
03-02-13, 18:10
Conclusion you just made yourself look ridiculous and made me involuntary find by mistakes two clear similarities between Albanian and Basque.
It was more easy for me to find them by mistake than you by intention. Linguistics is a science and in science you study the evidence and came up with a conclusion and not vice-versa, that would be religion. Your claims are pure myth.

wow, you're so smart, thank you for putting me to my place. We should raise you a monument or something.

ElHorsto
03-02-13, 21:48
Old Georgian ძაღ-ალ Dzag-al - Dog

Would Schakal/Jackal then be a German/English cognate?
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_jackal
"...indigenous to north and northeastern Africa, southeastern and central Europe (up to Austria and Hungary), Asia Minor, the Middle East and southeast Asia.")

Kardu
03-02-13, 22:04
Would Schakal/Jackal then be a German/English cognate?
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_jackal
"...indigenous to north and northeastern Africa, southeastern and central Europe (up to Austria and Hungary), Asia Minor, the Middle East and southeast Asia.")

Hmm, interesting... although I am not sure...

Jackal <----- from Turkish chakāl , from Persian shagāl , from Sanskrit srgāla

ElHorsto
03-02-13, 22:15
Hmm, interesting... although I am not sure...

Jackal <----- from Turkish chakāl , from Persian shagāl , from Sanskrit srgāla

Maybe Zagar and shagāl are simplified versions of srgāla...

Yetos
03-02-13, 22:48
interesting,

I wonder Greek θως where cognates?

Kardu
03-02-13, 23:03
Maybe Zagar and shagāl are simplified versions of srgāla...


Indeed, Sanskrit keeps the closest to the original PIE word, I assume

kamani
03-02-13, 23:21
in albanian: jackal = cakall (and it's a different animal from dog), so zagar still sounds closer to zakur, (k is a silent g). BTW, albanian also has the latin cognate for dog: qen = canis. Notice that like etruscan, albanian puts value on the first syllable. As far as the english "dog", it probably came from the latin verb indago=search, track.

kamani
04-02-13, 00:44
another basque - albanian similar word, "stone, on the ground": gur (alb) - gur (bas). Lets see if an IE cognate comes up for "gur".

Hal Fao
04-02-13, 12:50
another basque - albanian similar word, "stone, on the ground": gur (alb) - gur (bas). Lets see if an IE cognate comes up for "gur".
Maybe Slavic “гора” (mountain).

MOESAN
04-02-13, 15:05
Zagar seems to be a satem version of the English dog.
I don't know the etymology of the word ushtar, but gudari is more similar even to the English soldier, or other words like guard etc.
Hekur seems related to the Spanish hierro and even the English hard.
Exactly Dzag-al <> Dog.

Well, lule is much more related to the English flower. While the Basque lore seems to derive from the Spanish flor(flower).
Food supply in Basque is said elikagaien hornidura.
How are the words head and source related to each others? Buru(head) seems to have the same origin as the Albanian burrë(man), both from the Spanish hombre(man). While burim(source) has the same origin as the Dutch bron(source).
After reading this truk thing I'm starting to have concerns about you, or you're a ***** or a total i...
The Albanian(satem) zog(bird) is related to the Scandinavian(centum) languages, the Danish and Norwegian fugl(bird) and the Swedish fågel(bird).
Conclusion you just made yourself look ridiculous and made me involuntary find by mistakes two clear similarities between Albanian and Basque.
It was more easy for me to find them by mistake than you by intention. Linguistics is a science and in science you study the evidence and came up with a conclusion and not vice-versa, that would be religion. Your claims are pure myth.

just some points:
satem Z has more chances to derive fromI-E *G'
english guard is surely from an ancient germ- *war-d
spanish (castillan) hierro is for other dialects fierro/ferro, english hard surely comes from a IE *kar- (brittonic celtic caled/kaled "hard"???)
castillan hombre cannot be broken down as ****hom-bre, it comes from latin word hom-ine- (here the H is old and etymologic (latin), but doesn't correspond to original *f- as in other castillan and gasconoccitan words
zog <> fowl/vogel/fugl ??? the F- in germanic is for the most the reflex of an old PIE/IE P- (see breton polog, french poule, latin pullis??? just a track very unsure...)
for the remnant I 'm not in position to say anything, I regret I don't speak albanian nor basque

Taranis
04-02-13, 19:01
Old Georgian ძაღ-ალ Dzag-al - Dog

Before comparing Georgian with English, have you looked what the word for 'dog' is in the other Kartvelian languages? Bear in mind that Georgian is not an isolate language.


Zagar seems to be a satem version of the English dog.
Could you explain to us what exactly is, according to you, 'Satem', about this?


Hekur seems related to the Spanish hierro and even the English hard.

But Spanish "hierro" is a cognate with Latin "ferrum", French "fer", Italian "ferro".
Also compare Spanish "hija" - Latin "filia", French "fille", Italian "figlia". I might pick more examples, the point is that the *h in Spanish corresponds regularly to *f in Latin or other Romance languages. And the English word "hard" is clearly unrelated.


Conclusion you just made yourself look ridiculous and made me involuntary find by mistakes two clear similarities between Albanian and Basque.
It was more easy for me to find them by mistake than you by intention. Linguistics is a science and in science you study the evidence and came up with a conclusion and not vice-versa, that would be religion. Your claims are pure myth.

While I see that you have taken quite an effort in to this, no doubt like, many of your proposed cognates or etymologies, no offense, are essentially based on superficial similarity. Or you are taking individual letters out of a word and equate them with another word in another language. Where is your regularity and rigourosity?


Would Schakal/Jackal then be a German/English cognate?
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_jackal
"...indigenous to north and northeastern Africa, southeastern and central Europe (up to Austria and Hungary), Asia Minor, the Middle East and southeast Asia.")

I'm pretty sure the word is a wanderwort.

Goga
04-02-13, 20:46
A puppy in (Kurmanji) Kurdish = 'tulja' and a dog in Kurdish = 'kûçik' ('kutjik').

kesi
04-02-13, 22:48
zagar is a hunting dog in Albania, alternate word is "langua" or qen gjahu. because the hunting dog is used by its master to collect prey Albs use to speak negatively of a person who is like an obedient servant or tool etc. puppy is kelysh or klish in Alb qenushe (fem dog) bushter (bad connotation fem dog) etc you could use the online shqip-shqip dictionary for meaning of words http://fjalorshqip.com/

Kardu
04-02-13, 23:39
Before comparing Georgian with English, have you looked what the word for 'dog' is in the other Kartvelian languages? Bear in mind that Georgian is not an isolate language.




Georgian ძაღ-ალ dzag-al has a perfect cognateს in Laz/Megrelian ჯოღ-ორ jog-or and Svan ჟეღ zheg

Goga
05-02-13, 00:26
It's very strange to see that the main ancestors of the Kurds, the Medes, had a different name for a dog. They called a dog = 'spake' ('spaka'), while the Scythians called a dog = 'kutha' ('kuti'). Scythian 'kutha' ('kuti') is the same as Kurdish 'kûçik' ('kutjik').

So there're even different names for a 'dog' in (ancient & modern) Iranic languages:

DOG

Median: spake (spaka) close to Russian 'sabaka'
Farsi: sag
Kurdish: kûçik (kutjik)
Scythian: kutha (kuti)

http://steppes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=board22&action=display&thread=1369

MOESAN
05-02-13, 11:40
A puppy in (Kurmanji) Kurdish = 'tulja' and a dog in Kurdish = 'kûçik' ('kutjik').

interesting: if 'kûçik' can be broken as *kû-çik it shows a link with celtic singular cu/ci/ki >> plural cuin/cwn/kon

Pixelless
05-02-13, 12:49
wow, you're so smart, thank you for putting me to my place. We should raise you a monument or something.
That wasn't my goal. I was just pointing out that Albanian isn't some sort of super ancient language or whatever the Albanian nationalism claims.


interesting,

I wonder Greek θως where cognates?
It's really curious, even I would like to hear more about this.


another basque - albanian similar word, "stone, on the ground": gur (alb) - gur (bas). Lets see if an IE cognate comes up for "gur".
Well you have the Armenian քար(k'ar), no big deal anyway.

Guys and girls, I'm not a linguist. As you might have noticed I usually just reply on the topics that include the Albanian language in it. I do it because I'm tired of these nationalists, they're destroying the future of my country. They live in Wonderland, they believe that the Ancient Egyptians were speaking some sort of Proto-Albanian dialects along Ancient Greeks and Ancient Romans, because even these ones were 'Albanians' stand to these pothead nationalists. My point is to show them that Albanian is not a Gods' language but just a random IE language. About my IP and flag usage, I used the Canadian flag mostly because I love Canada. It's true that for now I live in Albania despite I might move in Canada. But the point was, I used the Canadian flag to avoid spam from the Albanian members, they usually call a traitor anyone that doesn't like their stupid propaganda. I want the future generations of Albania to live in the reality and not with romantic nationalist dreams.

ElHorsto
05-02-13, 14:38
interesting: if 'kûçik' can be broken as *kû-çik it shows a link with celtic singular cu/ci/ki >> plural cuin/cwn/kon

More possible cognate candidates from google:

Gujarati: kūtarō
Hindi: Kuttā
Telugu: Kukka

Bulgarian: kuče
Macedonian: kuče

Hungarian: kutya

Finnish: koira (?)
Bengali: Kukura(?)

kesi
05-02-13, 15:34
More possible cognate candidates from google:

Gujarati: kūtarō
Hindi: Kuttā
Telugu: Kukka

Bulgarian: kuče
Macedonian: kuče

Hungarian: kutya

Finnish: koira (?)
Bengali: Kukura(?)

Albs also call "kuci" a dog when they want the dog to follow them, its more like slang , also bubi for puppies

kamani
05-02-13, 19:23
Well you have the Armenian քար(k'ar), no big deal anyway.



There are scientists claiming that armenian has a caucasian substratum, so the trail is leading suspiciously back to the caucasian languages. Something slavic or germanic would be more convincing.
And nobody is saying that albanian is not IE, we're just saying small parts of it date before the Indo-Europeans came to the balkans, through linking it with basque and etruscan. This is nothing nationalistic or new, it's the pelazgo-illyrian theory that has been taught in albania for 50 yrs. Why should we deny evidence in our favor, to please our chauvinist neighbors.

Kardu
05-02-13, 20:01
There are scientists claiming that armenian has a caucasian substratum, so the trail is leading suspiciously back to the caucasian languages. Something slavic or germanic would be more convincing.
And nobody is saying that albanian is not IE, we're just saying small parts of it date before the Indo-Europeans came to the balkans, through linking it with basque and etruscan. This is nothing nationalistic or new, it's the pelazgo-illyrian theory that has been taught in albania for 50 yrs. Why should we deny evidence in our favor, to please our chauvinist neighbors.

Modern Armenian does have a very strong Caucasian and Hurrian substratum, no doubt about that.

Archaic Armenian which was related to Phrygian must have been quite different. Even Classical Armenian (Grabar) is in-understandable to contemporary Armenian speakers.

Pi gman
03-03-13, 01:30
Albs also call "kuci" a dog when they want the dog to follow them, its more like slang , also bubi for puppies

Yes, and in Turkish a dog is kopek!

Curtis Pigman French: Pigmon/Pimond and Greek Pygmon(nEIrMO)

martinmkp
07-03-13, 08:43
El Horsto:
Schakal - is in Slovak and suppose in Czech the same - šakal. Although, I have no clue of its origin (which language group).

This discussion - I have thought that Albanian language is a part of Indo-European languages, or am I wrong?

kamani
07-03-13, 10:42
This discussion - I have thought that Albanian language is a part of Indo-European languages, or am I wrong?
it is, the vast majority of words have cognates in latin, slavic, celtic, or germanic, but certain words match with basque or etruscan.

MOESAN
07-03-13, 13:54
I might have found the historical connection between basque-etruscan-albanian. The key is "Cardium Pottery" neolithic culture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_Pottery
It certainly fits very well with the expansion of E-v13 and the R1b-269* (parent clade) through anatolia.

I was pushed to think that rather Y-G2 was the prevalent "bearer" of Cardium, maybe associated with Y-E1V13 and some others (coastal Y-I2a1a*6I2a1a and Y-J1/J2b ???)

kamani
07-03-13, 21:42
I was pushed to think that rather Y-G2 was the prevalent "bearer" of Cardium, maybe associated with Y-E1V13 and some others (coastal Y-I2a1a*6I2a1a and Y-J1/J2b ???)

You're right about associating G2 with Cardium Pottery; there are studies saying it was significant in the etruscan population. I sticked R1b in there too because looking at its migration maps, it seems to have had a significant presence in the neolithic levant and arabia, from where Cardium Pottery launched. If that is true then we would get a neolithic non-IE R1b in europe to justify basques, etruscans etc. (just my vague theory thou, which could change if we get more studies)

MOESAN
09-03-13, 00:32
apparently, neolithical advance in Central Europe (danubian, rubané) was quick enough and involved males and females, and males and females of more than an Y-HG (for mtDNA I'm too confused and bad informed to say anyothing more) even if Y-G2 there seemed very heavy - for Cardial, it could have been quick enough too, but maritime, with less new incorporated members and having involved rather males so if this males (and Y-R1b bearers are newly considered as rather a male elite too) were comrades to Y-R1b males, their distribution would have followed the Y-G distribution, it seems it is not the case, at a present day stage of studies - or just a very slight component (the R1b stayed at the L23 stage?) dissociated from the maybe more numerous group of Y-R1b that came after and colonized Western Europe? a very meticulous survey about Y-R1b in -Italy could inform us?...

Rainbow Warrior
14-04-13, 04:57
well researched