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MOESAN
23-01-13, 19:52
Yes indeed; weather conditions is another forgotten aspect of the IE spread models, that's very true. Thanks for the file, it is very informative !


horses :

And I would had an argument : contrary to Taranis, I state that the word for "horse" is generally different in the IE languages. The *ekwos etymon doesn't work in many languages : English "horse" is "of unknown origins", Spanish "caballo" (= French "cheval, = Irish "capall", = Welsh "cefyll"), Danish "heste", Breton "marc'h" (= Welsh "march") as well. I am not sure but the Albanian kalë would not fit in *ekwos without dramatic manipulations. It tends to indicate that the PIE urvolk did not have a specific horse culture.

urvolk :

To be a bit provocative (as I like to be and as Sparkey rightly stated :) ), I would also add : are we sure that a PIE urvolk ever existed ? We have clear linguistic convergences (although many of them are based upon heavily distorted interpretations), is it sufficient to declare that you had an urvolk and an urheimat and horses and bronze swords and conquest and the like ? Well, I don't think so. I don't discard the hypothesis of a PIE urvolk, I am just wondering, this is after all only a hypothesis.


some thoughts of mine:
We have to be cautious about presence or absence of cognates words in languages

1- old words can have disappeared (and recently enough sometimes)
2- the litteral meaning of old words can evolve, even if giving birth to new meanings close enough or still related to old meanings (see the exchanges between meanings like «horse», «stallion», «mare», «foal» or «colt», «filly» ...)
3- on another side, without shift of meaning, by instance, in a population where horses are common and well used for different purposes, a lot of names can exist for them, more precise (we see that even in french): according to gener, to task/use (food, ploughing, war...) you can find diverse names: it does not prove that these different words haad been loaned to foreign languages and cultures... not always.
'horse' (I red it) would be for *'hros' << **'kros' ? (dutch 'ros', french 'rosse' = «bad horse») – so not isolated in lonely english -
as said by Taranis (I believe) *'ekw-' has some sons as 'hyppos', 'epos' >> 'each' (gaelic, irish) + 'ebol'/'ebeul' (welsh/breton) and as 'yegua'/'egua'/'iapä'(«mare» in spanish, portugales, romanian)
*'capall'-'caball' common to latn and celtic languages gave names in occidental languages but too in slavic ones like 'kobyla', 'kobila' (mare) -
*'mark-' is common to celtic languages as 'marc' (gaelic) and 'march'/'marc'h («stallion» in welsh and breton) but germanic had the same root in ancient 'marh' or 'marah' (marhskall >> 'marshall', 'maréchal' in english and french, and I suppose 'mare'/'merrie'/'merr' (english, dutch, norvegian) have some ancient connexions too as maybe 'hoppe' (norvégian, swedish) with *'caball-'...
the scandinavian 'hest'/'häst' could have a link too with welsh and breton 'caseg'/'kaseg'...
diversity of namings is not always a sign of loans -
I have sone difficulties to imagine that all these words were picked up here and there by the first
I-Eans: surely some words are not I-E but the basic ones, MORE THAN A NAME, were in western I-E, I suppose... it is not to disprove some heterogeneity concerning the naming of the horse in I-E: the example of slavic 'konj' (connected to turkic by someones) shows what seams a loan word;
just to say: be carefull concerning multiplicity of forms!


I 'm very doubtfull concerning ancient I-E = convergence of different languages (super-creole?): NO P-I-E thesis:
the majority of basic words for family, physical environment, body, basic verbs are not a distorded intellectual construction to create a forged common origin, as say someones: not all of them; even the conjugaisons endings show some similitude between say breton and persian (verbe 'to be')! It is not possible if I-E is only a convergence of not related languages – or I have not well understood what people were meaning about that.
Have a good supper!

Kardu
23-01-13, 20:01
Since we are talking about horses any idea from which IE language Georgian would borrow Achua (Horse in baby language, while the general term for a horse is local - Tskh-en-i) :)

Kentel
25-01-13, 15:55
some thoughts of mine:
'horse' (I red it) would be for *'hros' << **'kros' ? (dutch 'ros', french 'rosse' = «bad horse») – so not isolated in lonely english -

Interesting. But the French "rosse" is probably a loanword, since it cannot be a reflex of *kros. This is also the opinion of the TLF (Trésor de la Langue Française) : Empr. au m. h. all. ross « cheval » (= "borrowed from Old High German ross"). Moreover we don't have a PIE etymon such as *kros.

The OED (Oxford English Dictionary) suggests the following : of unknown origin, connected by some with PIE root *kurs-, source of Latin currere "to run"

For "ross" the DEW (Duden's Deutsches Etymologisches Worterbuch) says : Herkunft unklar (origins unclear) but confirms your connection with "horse" : auch in anord. hross, ae. hors, afr. hors, hars, hers. (ae = Old English).



*'mark-' is common to celtic languages as 'marc' (gaelic) and 'march'/'marc'h («stallion» in welsh and breton) but germanic had the same root in ancient 'marh' or 'marah' (marhskall >> 'marshall', 'maréchal' in english and french, and I suppose 'mare'/'merrie'/'merr' (english, dutch, norvegian) have some ancient connexions too as maybe 'hoppe' (norvégian, swedish) with *'caball-'...

Here the German words are borrowed from Celtic according to Henry's (Lexique Etymologique du Breton), or are common only to Celtic and Germanic, hence it is not IE in any case.


the scandinavian 'hest'/'häst' could have a link too with welsh and breton 'caseg'/'kaseg'...
diversity of namings is not always a sign of loans -

I have not my Danish etymological Dictionary at hand, but I'll check it and tell you more about this one.


I have sone difficulties to imagine that all these words were picked up here and there by the first
I-Eans: surely some words are not I-E but the basic ones, MORE THAN A NAME, were in western I-E, I suppose... it is not to disprove some heterogeneity concerning the naming of the horse in I-E: the example of slavic 'konj' (connected to turkic by someones) shows what seams a loan word

I agree with you here, but which conclusion do you draw from this ? IMO if they are not IE then the hypothesis of a specific IE horse culture vanishes.


I 'm very doubtfull concerning ancient I-E = convergence of different languages (super-creole?): NO P-I-E thesis:
the majority of basic words for family, physical environment, body, basic verbs are not a distorded intellectual construction to create a forged common origin, as say someones: not all of them; even the conjugaisons endings show some similitude between say breton and persian (verbe 'to be')! It is not possible if I-E is only a convergence of not related languages – or I have not well understood what people were meaning about that.

Yes, I agree, creolisation cannot explain all the convergences. Meillet said that we could assume the existence of a proto-language, as a mathematical model, not as a reality. And in no case was the existence of a urvolk demonstrated. As for myself I don't know. On one hand you have indeed many convergences which cannot be coincidental, on the other too many striking differences (and the verbal paradigm shows both of them : striking convergences and unexplainable differences - considered as "innovations" but it is again speculatory).

Yetos
25-01-13, 17:39
I see we are speaking again about the horse but nobody notices the donkey, which East of Summerian has another theme-root and west another.

Taranis
25-01-13, 19:11
I see we are speaking again about the horse but nobody notices the donkey, which East of Summerian has another theme-root and west another.

The word for "donkey" is almost certainly a wanderwort in most languages in Eurasia, as donkeys were originally not native to Eurasia, but north Africa.

LeBrok
25-01-13, 20:37
I would like to mentioned that horses always existed in Europe. They were hunted and consumed by hunter gatherers. Obviously there was a word for horse before IE showed up. The only question is which one and if the word survived.

We also have to keep in mind that there were different types of horses. The horse that we know today, is pretty much human creation, like dogs, and was expensive and mostly used for battles. It was like a Ferrari of horses.
The most common horse in ancient times was a small one used for transportation of people over distances. It had a specific trot, thus a smooth ride, and could do it all day.
Obviously these two main types of horses had different names. The big one in Latin times might have been called caballo, the smaller one (because of the trot) aquos.
Now we have only big horse existing, therefore only caballo in use today.

I think caballo is IE. There is so vast uniformity of word kobila and kon (soft n), sometimes kun for horse in all slavic languages, and kuznia (stable/black smith), that easily backtrackts it into proto-slavic, and more likely IE. Also in many slavic languages trot is called kwus, kus, and possibly name of the small horse. Small horses were native to steppes from Europe to Mongoilia, and even used as a battle horse for Hunic invaders and Mongols in middle ages.

Taranis
25-01-13, 21:09
I would like to mentioned that horses always existed in Europe. They were hunted and consumed by hunter gatherers. Obviously there was a word for horse before IE showed up. The only question is which one and if the word survived.

We also have to keep in mind that there were different types of horses. The horse that we know today, is pretty much human creation, like dogs, and was expensive and mostly used for battles. It was like a Ferrari of horses.
The most common horse in ancient times was a small one used for transportation of people over distances. It had a specific trot, thus a smooth ride, and could do it all day.
Obviously these two main types of horses had different names. The big one in Latin times might have been called caballo, the smaller one (because of the trot) aquos.
Now we have only big horse existing, therefore only caballo in use today.

I agree with regard for Mesolithic/Neolithic peoples and their relationship with horses. Incidentially, I remembered this paper (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19943892?dopt=Abstract), which argues for modern continuity between Neolithic/Bronze Age horse breeds in western Europe.


I think caballo is IE. There is so vast uniformity of word kobila and kon (soft n), sometimes kun for horse in all slavic languages, and kuznia (stable/black smith), that easily backtrackts it into proto-slavic, and more likely IE. Also in many slavic languages trot is called kwus, kus.

I would agree with you with respect for *kaballo-, but I'm inclined to think the word is still regional:
- we only have it in Celtic, Latin/Romance (which in turn might be borrowed from Celtic) and Slavic. We might as well add Paleo-Balkan (Albanian "kalë", Romanian "cal"), but I'm not aware of any reflexes for Indo-Iranic, Tocharian or Anatolian.

spongetaro
25-01-13, 22:47
It is possible that Horses have also been domesicated in the Iberian Peninsula. As wikipedia states:

Variation in the mitochondrial DNA is used to determine so-called haplogroups (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup). A haplogroup is a group of closely related haplotypes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplotype) that share the same common ancestor. In horses, seven main haplogroups are recognized (A-G), each with several subgroups. Several haplogroups are unequally distributed around the world, indicating the addition of local wild mares to the domesticated stock.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse#cite_note-Jansen2002-12)[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse#cite_note-Vila2001-19)[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse#cite_note-Lira-23)[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse#cite_note-priskin-24)[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse#cite_note-Cai-25) One of these haplotypes (Lusitano group C) is exclusively found on in Iberian Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Peninsula), leading to a hypothesis that the Iberian peninsula or North Africa was an independent origin for domestication of the horse.[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse#cite_note-Lira-23)

It would explain the specific Basque word for Horses.

LeBrok
25-01-13, 23:35
It is possible that domestication of horse happened interdependently in few places. As I mentioned before the most important thing is who used horses on industrial scale, and it points to people of the steppe around Ukraine to Kazakhstan, possibly IEs.
Most archeological and genetic finds point to Ukraine.

Here is the latest research, or rather its conclusions:

A study published in 2012 that performed genomic sampling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_genomics) on 300 work horses from local areas as well as a review of previous studies of archaeology, mitochondrial DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA), and Y-DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA) suggested that horses were originally domesticated in the western part of the Eurasian steppe.[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse#cite_note-Warmuth-20) Both domesticated stallions and mares spread out from this area, and then additional wild mares were added from local herds; wild mares were easier to handle than wild stallions. Most other parts of the world were ruled out as sites for horse domestication, either due to climate unsuitable for an indigenous wild horse population or no evidence of domestication.[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse#cite_note-LesteLasserre-21)
Genes located on the Y-chromosome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosome) are inherited only from sire to its male offspring and these lines show a very reduced degree of genetic variation (aka genetic homogeneity (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Homogeneity)) in modern domestic horses, far less than expected based on the overall genetic variation in the remaining genetic material.[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse#cite_note-Lau-17)[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse#cite_note-Lindgren2004-18) This indicates that a relatively few stallions were domesticated, and that it is unlikely that many male offspring originating from unions between wild stallions and domestic mares were included in early domesticated breeding stock

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestication_of_the_horse


PS. Perhaps we should open Horse thread. :)

Kentel
26-01-13, 01:25
I think caballo is IE. There is so vast uniformity of word kobila and kon (soft n), sometimes kun for horse in all slavic languages, and kuznia (stable/black smith), that easily backtrackts it into proto-slavic, and more likely IE. Also in many slavic languages trot is called kwus, kus, and possibly name of the small horse. Small horses were native to steppes from Europe to Mongoilia, and even used as a battle horse for Hunic invaders and Mongols in middle ages.

Here is the notice from Delamarre's Etymological Dictionary of Gaulish (2003) (my translation):

"caballos : workhorse. The Latin caballus and its Romance cognates [...] are sometimes considered as originally Gaulish. [...] The Insular Celtic word is not a borrowing from Latin. [...] The word, which has not an IE aspect is attested in Greek at an early date (kaballes) and is probably not borrowed from the Galates. It is either a "wanderwort" (cf. Turkish keväl and Persian kaval) or a word borrowed by the European IE languages from an indigeneous substratum."

original version :caballos : cheval de trait. Le latin caballus et ses dérivés romans [...] sont parfois considérés d'origine gauloise. [...] Le mot en celtique insulaire n'est pas un emprunt au latin. [...] Le mot, qui n'a pas un aspect indo-européen, est attesté en grec à date ancienne (kaballes) où il n'est probablement pas emprunté aux Galates. Il s'agit d'un mot voyageur (Wanderwort) (v. turc keväl et persan kaval) ou d'un mot passé dans les langues IE d'Europe à partir d'un substrat local."

Hence : wandering or substratic word, but in any case not IE.

Kentel
26-01-13, 01:32
PS. Perhaps we should open Horse thread. :)

Yes, definitely ! I just can't paste all the posts devoted to the topic in a new thread. We need a moderator to do that :)

LeBrok
26-01-13, 03:21
Here is the notice from Delamarre's Etymological Dictionary of Gaulish (2003) (my translation):


Hence : wandering or substratic word, but in any case not IE.

Interesting, It's hard to believe how wildly it had spread just on bases of borrowing. I'm not saying you and Taranis are wrong, I'm just amazed how it turned out.

Kentel
26-01-13, 12:43
Interesting, It's hard to believe how wildly it had spread just on bases of borrowing. I'm not saying you and Taranis are wrong, I'm just amazed how it turned out.

If I understand well, Delamarre's conclusion is that the word was substractic somewhere in Central Asia (because of the Turkish and Persian cognates) and became a wandering word afterwards. It sounds realistic from an archaeologic point of view.

He says that cabalos "has not an IE aspect", probably because PIE *b is very rare. Some linguists go as far as considering it as non-existant.

Yetos
26-01-13, 17:17
The word for "donkey" is almost certainly a wanderwort in most languages in Eurasia, as donkeys were originally not native to Eurasia, but north Africa.

Correct, and that is wher I want to focus,

the theme root asinus osl onos in finnish aasi and Summerian anse, and in Tocharian Persian and rest East as Kerkapo kar etc
shows clear a line, a line among Indo-Iranian and European, and strangely divides Anatolian languages to Hettit and Ludian and Tocharian,

I think that is something that we must observe it,
as also some other differences, for example the word for mountain,

on how these words spread and towards where, we can understand the move, or the waves.

for instance in the above example we have clear contact of IE with Summerian either as loan or common word the theme-root asinus, but Tocharian Kerkapo (reminds me kapros Capri) is after what? and which other language connected?
I think such comparisons gives us lines and limits, so we can understand the waves.

a good example
Greek εγειρω and English raise
could that be connected with south Slavic goran the word for mountains?
or Greek ορος, Slavic goran, Spanish Sierra cognates with Summerian Kur?
another linguistic line? notice that in both (Greek south Slavic) misses the theme-root for mountain.

LeBrok
26-01-13, 21:13
He says that cabalos "has not an IE aspect", probably because PIE *b is very rare. Some linguists go as far as considering it as non-existant.

Doesn't this apply to PIE *v too? Possibly PIE kaval?

MOESAN
27-01-13, 20:43
Interesting. But the French "rosse" is probably a loanword, since it cannot be a reflex of *kros. This is also the opinion of the TLF (Trésor de la Langue Française) : Empr. au m. h. all. ross « cheval » (= "borrowed from Old High German ross"). Moreover we don't have a PIE etymon such as *kros.

I agree, I was aware 'rosse' was presumed being of germanic origin - it seams evident enough -

The OED (Oxford English Dictionary) suggests the following : of unknown origin, connected by some with PIE root *kurs-, source of Latin currere "to run"

For "ross" the DEW (Duden's Deutsches Etymologisches Worterbuch) says : Herkunft unklar (origins unclear) but confirms your connection with "horse" : auch in anord. hross, ae. hors, afr. hors, hars, hers. (ae = Old English).



Here the German words are borrowed from Celtic according to Henry's (Lexique Etymologique du Breton), or are common only to Celtic and Germanic, hence it is not IE in any case.

It was just to make a list of words before trying to give an possible PIE origin or not


I have not my Danish etymological Dictionary at hand, but I'll check it and tell you more about this one.



I agree with you here, but which conclusion do you draw from this ? IMO if they are not IE then the hypothesis of a specific IE horse culture vanishes.

I don't draw anuy conclusion now, lacking knewledge about eastern satem languages


Yes, I agree, creolisation cannot explain all the convergences. Meillet said that we could assume the existence of a proto-language, as a mathematical model, not as a reality. And in no case was the existence of a urvolk demonstrated. As for myself I don't know. On one hand you have indeed many convergences which cannot be coincidental, on the other too many striking differences (and the verbal paradigm shows both of them : striking convergences and unexplainable differences - considered as "innovations" but it is again speculatory).

convergences prove more than divergences, when we know how quickly innovations can occur in living languages - french lonaed a lot of english words, but for now never adopted the english verbs conjugaisons, very easier nevertheless than the latine french conjugaisons! and look at personal pronouns in IE languages (different today but cognates, but today their new forms are not exchanged) -
and the 'ne' negative marker also - it is not every kind of words which is commonly loaned -
i could say in modern french: "Je vais dans mon jogging voir mon père qui est manager d'un petit fast-food low-cost": mais pas: "I vais in mon survêtement voir my father who dirige un petit fast-food à prix cassés."

MOESAN
27-01-13, 20:44
Sorry, I made a mess of my answers to Kentel

MOESAN
27-01-13, 20:53
If I understand well, Delamarre's conclusion is that the word was substractic somewhere in Central Asia (because of the Turkish and Persian cognates) and became a wandering word afterwards. It sounds realistic from an archaeologic point of view.

He says that cabalos "has not an IE aspect", probably because PIE *b is very rare. Some linguists go as far as considering it as non-existant.

I agree 'caball-' is very curious: it is surely a loan word, and I suppose it was loaned at different times through different ways because phonetic laws are not too much respected in its case, if loaned at an unique source:
celtic *'cabalos', BUT gaelic 'capal' and welsh breton 'ceffyl', 'kefel-' ('kefeleg' is the name of a bird !!! see my other posts): in celtic languages, we would have expected *"kaval" or "kevel" ('kaval' exists in Brittany, but it's a place name) but
even if we can imagine *'capal-' before 'cabalos' in Galia, the other forms in Eire-G-B suppose rather a *'cappal-' form...

Kentel
28-01-13, 12:10
Doesn't this apply to PIE *v too? Possibly PIE kaval?

Yes, there is (apparently) no fricative in PIE but for *s. Hence PIE *kaval is impossible.

Kentel
28-01-13, 12:18
convergences prove more than divergences, when we know how quickly innovations can occur in living languages - french lonaed a lot of english words, but for now never adopted the english verbs conjugaisons, very easier nevertheless than the latine french conjugaisons! and look at personal pronouns in IE languages (different today but cognates, but today their new forms are not exchanged) -
and the 'ne' negative marker also - it is not every kind of words which is commonly loaned
i could say in modern french: "Je vais dans mon jogging voir mon père qui est manager d'un petit fast-food low-cost": mais pas: "I vais in mon survêtement voir my father who dirige un petit fast-food à prix cassés."

Yes but innovations and borrowings are two different things. Innovations stricto sensu may exist only in echoism (a new root built upon an onomatopeia). And I don't believe in echoism.

By the way, "jogging", from Middle English "to jog" has no known origins :)

Kentel
28-01-13, 12:55
A propos horses, here is the etymology for Danish "hest" (horse, same word in all the Scandinavian languages) according to the Gyldendals Etymologisk Ordbog. I have to stress the fact that this dictionary is fanatically pro-PIE and sees PIE roots everywhere. The guys know what meaning distorsion is the name for. But you can judge by yourselves :

hest : glda. hæst, no. hest, sv. häst, oldnord. hestr; af urnord. *hahistaR, germ. *hanhista- der er Verners vekselsform til germ. *hanqista-, se hingst. [...] Begge ord er superl. "best springende", dannet til ie *kak "springe, danse" ligesom fx lit. šókti "springe, danse", nasaleret šankìnti få (en hest) til at springe.

my translation:

hest : old Danish hæst, norwegian hest, swedish häst, old Norse hestr, from common Nordic *hahistaR, proto-Germanic *hanhista, which is the alternate proto-form of *hanqista (Verner's Law), see hingst. [...] Both words are actually a superlative "best jumping", built upon PIE *kak- "to jump", like f.ex the Lituanian šókti "to jump, to dance" and its nasalized form šankìnti "make (a horse) jump".


other jumping animals (my suggestions for forecoming etymologies):

rabbit
grasshopper
squirrel
salmon
frog
etc.

My contribution (I hope you'll like it): kangaroo, from PIE *kak- "to jump" (nasalized).

By the way, contrary to the kangaroo, the horse does not move by jumping, so let's face it : "hest" is not IE.

MOESAN
28-01-13, 16:15
A propos horses, here is the etymology for Danish "hest" (horse, same word in all the Scandinavian languages) according to the Gyldendals Etymologisk Ordbog. I have to stress the fact that this dictionary is fanatically pro-PIE and sees PIE roots everywhere. The guys know what meaning distorsion is the name for. But you can judge by yourselves :

hest : glda. hæst, no. hest, sv. häst, oldnord. hestr; af urnord. *hahistaR, germ. *hanhista- der er Verners vekselsform til germ. *hanqista-, se hingst. [...] Begge ord er superl. "best springende", dannet til ie *kak "springe, danse" ligesom fx lit. šókti "springe, danse", nasaleret šankìnti få (en hest) til at springe.

my translation:

hest : old Danish hæst, norwegian hest, swedish häst, old Norse hestr, from common Nordic *hahistaR, proto-Germanic *hanhista, which is the alternate proto-form of *hanqista (Verner's Law), see hingst. [...] Both words are actually a superlative "best jumping", built upon PIE *kak- "to jump", like f.ex the Lituanian šókti "to jump, to dance" and its nasalized form šankìnti "make (a horse) jump".


other jumping animals (my suggestions for forecoming etymologies):

rabbit
grasshopper
squirrel
salmon
frog
etc.

My contribution (I hope you'll like it): kangaroo, from PIE *kak- "to jump" (nasalized).

By the way, contrary to the kangaroo, the horse does not move by jumping, so let's face it : "hest" is not IE.

thanks for the joke, but I think you are very hard concerning the dan etymologists and by the way, a horse is not everytime moving by jumps BUT CAN JUMP - I don't pronounce myself about the last part of this etymology, but I think it 's a vauable HYPOTEHSIS -
concerning innovations in languages, I was speaking about evolutions of meanings or creation of new words by derivation or association of two words, we see everywhere in every language, almost...

MOESAN
28-01-13, 16:16
'valuable' - 'hypothesis' - sorry, my fingers are swifter than my brain...

LeBrok
28-01-13, 19:09
Yes, there is (apparently) no fricative in PIE but for *s. Hence PIE *kaval is impossible.

Interesting. It makes the most common name in Poland "Kowalski" none IE, in otherwise very IE language. :)

Taranis
28-01-13, 19:49
Interesting. It makes the most common name in Poland "Kowalski" none IE, in otherwise very IE language. :)

In a number of IE daughter languages (including Slavic, but also Latin and German, for instance), the sound *v arose from an earlier *w. Another typical way for *v to arise is from an earlier *b, which happened in Brythonic and (medieval to modern) Greek for instance. The latter also explains why the Cyrilic letter В has the value /v/ while a new letter for /b/ (Б) was invented.


My contribution (I hope you'll like it): kangaroo, from PIE *kak- "to jump" (nasalized).

By the way, contrary to the kangaroo, the horse does not move by jumping, so let's face it : "hest" is not IE.

:grin:


Yes, there is (apparently) no fricative in PIE but for *s. Hence PIE *kaval is impossible.

Not quite: you're forgetting the so-called laryngeals (*H1, *H2, *H3), which were also fricatives.

Kentel
28-01-13, 20:05
Interesting. It makes the most common name in Poland "Kowalski" none IE, in otherwise very IE language. :)

Curiously enough, the Polish word kowal (smith) is probably one of the very few words of Celtic origins in Slavic, being originaly a borrowing from Gaulish goben (smith - "gof" in Breton). From Gaulish or from another old Celtic language. It is not a PIE word, unless you absolutely want to connect it with *g(h)eubh (to bend) as some linguists do. But Delamarre stresses that, contrary to bronze, iron was neither bent nor folded when worked. And "goben" points undoubdtedly to iron smiths.

Kentel
28-01-13, 20:29
Not quite: you're forgetting the so-called laryngeals (*H1, *H2, *H3), which were also fricatives.

Yes, right, laryngeals... :grin: I remember one of my professors saying "why don't they admit that PIE had quite simply a A and a O and give us a break with their laryngeal hysteria ?". But yes, you're certainly right, they were constrictives, or something similar (fricatives maybe).

Taranis
28-01-13, 20:39
Yes, right, laryngeals... :grin: I remember one of my professors saying "why don't they admit that PIE had quite simply a A and a O and give us a break with their laryngeal hysteria ?". But yes, you're certainly right, they were constrictives, or something similar (fricatives maybe).

Well, I agree, and I disagree with your professor: my opinion is that PIE certainly had the laryngeals (obviously at the positions where they are reflected in Anatolian), but I agree with him in so far as that the "laryngeal soup" that some reconstructed proto-forms of words become, appear unlikely.

LeBrok
28-01-13, 21:57
In a number of IE daughter languages (including Slavic, but also Latin and German, for instance), the sound *v arose from an earlier *w. Another typical way for *v to arise is from an earlier *b, which happened in Brythonic and (medieval to modern) Greek for instance. The latter also explains why the Cyrilic letter В has the value /v/ while a new letter for /b/ (Б) was invented.
.

I see. Let me play with it a bit. Theoretically we can go back in time and evolution of this word, like this: Kaval -> Kawal -> Kwal (kual)
Interestingly it brings us close to Albanian and Romanian "kal" for horse.

I looked through other languages outside europe too, and have to say that I couldn't find anything even remotely close to Cabal, Koval, Kual, Kal for horse or stallion. If it is not IE, it looks seriously local (Balkan) non-IE.

Other names for horse:
"At" and "Aygir" look Turkic to me. Mongolian "adu", possible East Steppe connection.

Interesting for stallion:
"žrebec" Slavic, "zirgas" Latvian, "zi" Armenian, "azarga" Mongolian (steppe connection?). Basque "Zaldi" doesn't seam to belong to this group.


Generally, there are so many names for horses, that domestication of horse didn't play a role in naming this animal. Looks more that horses existed everywhere in Eurasia, hens many local names.

LeBrok
28-01-13, 22:25
Curiously enough, the Polish word kowal (smith) is probably one of the very few words of Celtic origins in Slavic, being originaly a borrowing from Gaulish goben (smith - "gof" in Breton). From Gaulish or from another old Celtic language. It is not a PIE word, unless you absolutely want to connect it with *g(h)eubh (to bend) as some linguists do. But Delamarre stresses that, contrary to bronze, iron was neither bent nor folded when worked. And "goben" points undoubdtedly to iron smiths.

Somehow it might be a polish construct of kon (horse) and wal (hit with hammer), hens konwal -> kowal (smith that makes iron horseshoes and installs them with nails to the hoofs.)

Yetos
28-01-13, 23:57
This one sounds pretty close to "horse", unfortunately the Greek ph is a reflexe of PIE *bh while Germanic h is a reflexe op PIE *k (or *k'). So it does not work.




I like this one much more than the Vulgar Latin *pullus for the French "poulain" (colt). Do you have an etymology ?



But *ekwo cannot yield ka- nor ca-, thus it doesn't work.


Well in Greek Ph and F = Φ no ph exists in words, but Φ Philip = Φιλιππος
so Φορβας can be connected with Germaniv Pherd Paard but different gender.
about Πωλος the word was used to express the young Horse (1 Year old) Donkey or Mule, Πωλος and the very small Πωλαριον (less than 1 year)
for example
olympic games with Horses 384BC
tεθριππον πωλων, συνωρις πωλων were olympic games with young horses
well if it is usefull in Olympic games the horses where named also as κοππατιες and σαμφορες but mainly due to the Marks S (( Ϟ ϟ Κοππα Qoppa) and Σ (Sigma) in their nail.

the idea is that since we have change in Celtic and Greek like Ikkos to Ippos then we might have something simmilar

BUT
I found something that might be usefull
ΚΑΛΠΗ. 496 Bc for first time, the female horses run,
dont know etymology but the run of female horses was named KΑλπη Kalpi-Kalpe

Yetos
29-01-13, 01:07
I wonder do we know the size of the horse of 3500 BC? or even troyan war horse?

I wonder did the famous Arabian berber Turkic Horses existed when R1b entered Europe?

for example we know the most ancient horses in Europe was Equus Cabalus Skyros or Equus ferus Cabalus Thessalonian (Horse that entered balkans by Scythians)
could that horse make a difference?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2NxPK5IvsU&amp;feature=player_embedded

Scyriano is mentioned that was the horse that Myceneans had in Troyan war and only Thracian Diomedes had the Scythian like Thessalonian. (I Think Homer say that Diomedes horses eat meat, thats why they were big)

these horses are very small so you can find them as ponies but they are horses,
in fact are some of the most ancient in Europe, so I wonder could that horses be the tremendous war machine that we are speaking?
Even Scythian horses Thessalonian (Scythians are considered as very connected with Horse) which where 2500 years after Yamna-Dunav road and younger in Balkans, have nothing to do with today horses, that are Arabic Berber Turkic etc.

So when we Speak that steppe people had horses, plz your mind don't go to Horses like modern ones in size, but to small less 110 cm height until scythian 120-125 cm (neck and head not included)

I link the video to see how tall were the ancient European horses.

Both horses, but especially Scyriano are considered very ancient in Europe

LeBrok
29-01-13, 01:17
Mare - horse female, English.

mare Basque, mara Estonian, mare Georgian, mare Lao, mare Norwegian


kobila Slavic, cavalla Italian, keve Latvian, kanca Hungarian (possible cognate with Slavic "kon"?)

euga Catalan, Portugues, yegua Spanish

stu Germanic
pele Albanian
iapa Romanian
klacz Polish
matak Armenian
tamma Finnish
forada Greek
khodi Hindi
larach Irish
equa Latin
kumele Lithuanian
kisrak Turkish
gaseg Welsh

LeBrok
29-01-13, 01:37
I wonder do we know the size of the horse of 3500 BC? or even troyan horse?


for example we know the most ancient horses in Europe was Equus Cabalus Skyros or Equus ferus Cabalus Thessalonian (Horse that entered balkans by Scythians)
could that horse make a difference?



Mongols conquered half of the world on them! The smaller horses were still in use in europe till 19th century. It all could have started from Tarpan horse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarpan

Kardu
29-01-13, 03:35
Mare - horse female, English.

mare Basque, mara Estonian, mare Georgian, mare Lao, mare Norwegian


kobila Slavic, cavalla Italian, keve Latvian, kanca Hungarian (possible cognate with Slavic "kon"?)

euga Catalan, Portugues, yegua Spanish

stu Germanic
pele Albanian
iapa Romanian
klacz Polish
matak Armenian
tamma Finnish
forada Greek
khodi Hindi
larach Irish
equa Latin
kumele Lithuanian
kisrak Turkish
gaseg Welsh

Sorry, LeBrok, there is no Mare in Georgian. Maybe you refer to Merani which is late loan-word.

LeBrok
29-01-13, 06:51
Sorry, LeBrok, there is no Mare in Georgian. Maybe you refer to Merani which is late loan-word.
It's not my fault, Google Translate did it. ;)
There is no continental connections anyway. The words are all over the map.

Yetos
29-01-13, 09:15
Mongols conquered half of the world on them! The smaller horses were still in use in europe till 19th century. It all could have started from Tarpan horse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarpan



Tarpan Turcoman Arabian Berber horses are newly horses in Europe, with max 2-2,5 milleniums history in Europe.
Scythians, Famous open valley - steppe people which culture use the horse very much, had max 120-130 cm Horses at 500 BC,

the only evidence of big horse is in ancient Egypt by Hyksos.

Tarpan may entered with Tatars or Huns in Europe.


Yet we do not know about Diomedes horses, but I guess should be taller than 130 cm

Kardu
29-01-13, 12:37
It's not my fault, Google Translate did it. ;)
There is no continental connections anyway. The words are all over the map.

I see. :) Apparently they haven't added this word to their Georgian vocabulary.

In any case Mare - ფაშატ-ი Phashat-i

I believe it's a loanword too..

Kentel
29-01-13, 16:09
Somehow it might be a polish construct of kon (horse) and wal (hit with hammer), hens konwal -> kowal (smith that makes iron horseshoes and installs them with nails to the hoofs.)

Excellent !

We can explore the matter further on : "konwalia" in Polish means "lily", what do you say about that ?

Kentel
29-01-13, 16:11
Scythians, Famous open valley - steppe people which culture use the horse very much, had max 120-130 cm Horses at 500 BC,

the only evidence of big horse is in ancient Egypt by Hyksos.


If I understand well, we have been invaded by blond warlike horsemen with big bronze swords mounted on 1,30m horses ?

Kardu
29-01-13, 16:54
If I understand well, we have been invaded by blond warlike horsemen with big bronze swords mounted on 1,30m horses ?

:) :) :) :) :)

MOESAN
29-01-13, 17:20
Curiously enough, the Polish word kowal (smith) is probably one of the very few words of Celtic origins in Slavic, being originaly a borrowing from Gaulish goben (smith - "gof" in Breton). From Gaulish or from another old Celtic language. It is not a PIE word, unless you absolutely want to connect it with *g(h)eubh (to bend) as some linguists do. But Delamarre stresses that, contrary to bronze, iron was neither bent nor folded when worked. And "goben" points undoubdtedly to iron smiths.

I'm ready to follow you here concerning iron, but what is the reason of so a conviction, eliminating bronze smiths?

MOESAN
29-01-13, 17:23
HORSES AND CLOSE ANIMALS speculations

I have not an I-E roots dictionary by the hand – here, just some possible links after being looked at some translations: my *s are a bit naive compared to modern I-E signs but...
greek: pôlos = «colt», «foal» <> germ. *fol-, lat. *pul- <???> alb.mod- pelë =«mare»
+ ir/scot-gael- lair << ? *plâr ??? << p°l-r ???
alb.mod- kalë = «horse» surely from *cabal- (and not *capal nor *cappal; what put me to conclude the Greats Isles Celts adopted **cappal- from a language that hardened (assourdissement) consonnants -

norv-dan- hoppe = merr =«mare» - it's hard for me not considering a possible root: *cab-
snskr- ašvah, indoust- aššv = «horse», lit- ašva = «mare» could be evolved cousins of *ekw- (by the way I saw lit- kumele = «mare», lett- kēve = «mare» could give way to some speculations (sometimes I wonder if camal- would not have a remote link with cabal-? I 'm not aware of hamitic-semitic languages evolution so it could be pure convergence) - I add lit- kumeliukas + lett- kumeĮs = «colt», «foal» - I know 'kuinas = kumele could show the root is just *ku- and not *kum-...
greek forbàs = «mare» seams to me based ont a root *phor- << *bhor <???> *bher- = to bear
&: this I-E *bh- recall me an interrogation shared by me and Taranis about modern germ- 'b- quasi identical to celtic and slavic 'b-' : why this consonnant never became 'p-' according to Grim's law? I think now it could be the proof '*bh- in germanic was not already arrived to the stage of simple b- when the big shift tooke place; in fact, in modern hoch-deutsche dialects the dictionary b- is pronounced as a non-aspirated /p/ but it is a secondary evolution -


I found some hypothetic link too between slavic *žreb- (žerebjonok/źrebię/hřibě/žrebeć/ždrebe) << **greb- = «colt», «foal» and indoust- ghŏɽā = aššv = «horse» -


all that seams showing some links within or between some groups of I-E languages but not a complete global unity, and some loan words seam almost evident... I have to refresh my mind and to give a rest to my poor old brain... I rely on you! Some coloured map showing the different roots in Eurasia could help? I have not the equipment to do it...


&& about french poule, lat- pullis and the apparently impossible semantic link with french poulain and other I-E cognates words, I cite the breton word jaw = marc'h = «horse»; jaw evocates me the french dialectal jau << jal/al << gal << gallus = cock – so, the question is still open for meanings drifts... I say too as answer to Kentel that sometimes the name of a litlle animal is given to the adult full developped animal of same race: breton kole << kohle, kodle << kozh-leue, «young bull» ('old-calf') which has taken the place of tarw for «bull» in some dialects; so 'poule', 'poulet' << *pullis doesn't seam so strange? The 2 words are attested in XIII°C french; maybe 'poulet' = «chicken» was created when 'poule' took the meanign of «hen»??? so 'pullis' = «little» keeps is explicative power? Yetos, was is the meaning of «-poulos» we find so often at the end of greek family names???


I would be very glad if I could have access to serious etymologies of a lot of I-E languages, sure!

LeBrok
29-01-13, 20:35
Excellent !

We can explore the matter further on : "konwalia" in Polish means "lily", what do you say about that ?
lol, I admit I'm lost with kowal. The closest cognates that I found is Russia "kovats" (to hit with hammer) and Czech "kovar" (also blacksmith as in Polish, for the rest of Slavs it is "kuzniecz". What would you say if possibly it is a very old name for copper/bronze smith, through celtic/or east germanic borrowing into slavic? There were celtic setlements in Czech area, with huge metal smelting industry. Can you see an evolution from copper? I could only find that smith in insular celtic is "goba".

PS."kowalia" name comes from shape of a flower, like water vessel, "konwa" old Polish, modern "konewka".

LeBrok
29-01-13, 20:44
Looks like we don't have pan-IE horse connection. We should be more successful with a wheel and a wagon though, or even word "bronze".

Yetos
30-01-13, 00:35
@ Moesan
about ending names in -opoulos


well according 1 out of 3 possible explanations yes

it is like a dimunitive

English anc Greek, Modern Greek, Dimunitive
Cat (μυ)γαλη Γατα Γατ-ακι and Γατ-ουλι
falcon Ιεραξ Γερακι Γερακ-ουλι
but
Eagle Αετος Αετος Αετ-ουλι and Αετ-οπουλο
Pig Χοιρος(Ηoiros) Χοιρος and Γουρουνι Γουρουν-ακι and Γουρουν-οπουλο.

According to 2nd explanation is after Latin Pullus cause we find it mainly after Enetocracy and Francocracy.

3rd possible is complicated and consider ending as Thracian or Slavic

MOESAN
30-01-13, 11:40
@ Moesan
about ending names in -opoulos


well according 1 out of 3 possible explanations yes

it is like a dimunitive

English anc Greek, Modern Greek, Dimunitive
Cat (μυ)γαλη Γατα Γατ-ακι and Γατ-ουλι
falcon Ιεραξ Γερακι Γερακ-ουλι
but
Eagle Αετος Αετος Αετ-ουλι and Αετ-οπουλο
Pig Χοιρος(Ηoiros) Χοιρος and Γουρουνι Γουρουν-ακι and Γουρουν-οπουλο.

According to 2nd explanation is after Latin Pullus cause we find it mainly after Enetocracy and Francocracy.

3rd possible is complicated and consider ending as Thracian or Slavic

thanks for answer, yetos

MOESAN
30-01-13, 11:45
just to appear more serious to linguists:
kole/kohle << not kozh-leue ("old calf", only the present day components fo understanding the meaning) but << coth-loe (gaulish: 'cott-' = "old"

answer to Kentel:
I don't explain 'K-' of 'kowal' or 'kovats' in front of 'G-' of 'gov-' << 'gob-' in slavic languages

MOESAN
03-02-13, 01:47
I can add that even in sentance structure we saw evolutions among I-E languages and that the today differences are not the proof that there have not been more homogenous structures employed at high time in I-E language "offsprings" - some evolutions could be put on the account of substrata action, others to hazard local evolutions without link we any sbustrata nor superstrata - see the fall of declinsons among a lot of modern languages and the use of a lot of prepositions - occidental Europe is a good example of that...

Pixelless
03-02-13, 15:34
Well the Albanian words kalë(horse) and pelë(mare) both probably have origin from the Latin caballus. Respectively kalë <> caballus, and pelë <> caballus.

Zemra
05-02-13, 00:58
Well the Albanian words kalë(horse) and pelë(mare) both probably have origin from the Latin caballus. Respectively kalë <> caballus, and pelë <> caballus.Albanian "pelë" it's not of Latin origin, but PIE; cognates English "foal".

MOESAN
05-02-13, 11:14
all the way, latin had a *pul- (different from *pull->> birds ?) root for 'foal' so surely cognate too...
it 's true that the Pixelles hypothesis seams wrong to me (two ways of stressing in a same language for a same root)

MOESAN
05-02-13, 11:18
I'm wrong too, sorry !!! the stress in some languages can move, so... but then whe could have expected a trace of the old *K-(before p-l-) and the supposed *-b- intervocalic, disappeared in 'calë' is uneasy to explain under the form of 'p-' in 'pelë'
but we are here among hypothesis very unreliable...

MOESAN
05-02-13, 11:23
Mare - horse female, English.

mare Basque, mara Estonian, mare Georgian, mare Lao, mare Norwegian


kobila Slavic, cavalla Italian, keve Latvian, kanca Hungarian (possible cognate with Slavic "kon"?)

euga Catalan, Portugues, yegua Spanish

stu Germanic
pele Albanian
iapa Romanian
klacz Polish
matak Armenian
tamma Finnish
forada Greek
khodi Hindi
larach Irish
equa Latin
kumele Lithuanian
kisrak Turkish
gaseg Welsh

thanks for some words: but sorry, the basic form in welsh (and breton, cornish) is with a K- soind: 'caseg'

MOESAN
05-02-13, 11:26
all the way, an old form *ekw-/*akw- seams common to 2 celtic branches, to latin, greek, baltic and indo-iranian languages...

Selwyn Greenfrith
18-02-13, 23:38
From Wiki:

"Kehoe/Keogh is one of several versions of the Irish name "Mac Eochaidh" which translates as ‘son of Eochaidh’, a personal name based on each ‘horse’. There is also a similar Danish surname, Keøgh"

MOESAN
22-02-13, 20:04
From Wiki:

"Kehoe/Keogh is one of several versions of the Irish name "Mac Eochaidh" which translates as ‘son of Eochaidh’, a personal name based on each ‘horse’. There is also a similar Danish surname, Keøgh"

this danish KEÖGH is very surprising to me: have you the DANISH meaning???
for ireland I add that exists too a KEOUGH form

Selwyn Greenfrith
26-02-13, 08:54
this danish KEÖGH is very surprising to me: have you the DANISH meaning???
for ireland I add that exists too a KEOUGH form

If it is indeed Irish, then another likely spelling for Kehoe would be: 'Keown' Right now I don't have any other meanings for this lastname - though still reckon 'kehoe' is an English lastname to do with the landscape rather than an Irish lastname somehow to do with horses. Indeed, I can't understand that well how it links into the Danish lastname: Keøgh(?)

MOESAN
28-02-13, 16:25
except an error, I see no link between KEOGH/KEOUGH/KEHOE and KEOWN
KEHOE is irish and only irish, I think -
KEOWN evocates me a gaelic scottish name MCKEOWN formed upon MAC-EWEN/MAC-EWAN (MAC EOGHAIN? seamingly "saxonization" under the forms: EUNSON/EWENSON in eastern Scotland) as MACKINTOSH for MAC-INTOSH

MOESAN
28-02-13, 16:32
for danish KEÖGH if think it is a bad spelling for whether KOEGH or KÖGH old spellings of final -GH (as in flemish) for spired -G
a danisj word exists: kög = "to bake", "to cook" !?!

hope
28-02-13, 22:27
except an error, I see no link between KEOGH/KEOUGH/KEHOE and KEOWN
KEHOE is irish and only irish, I think -
KEOWN evocates me a gaelic scottish name MCKEOWN formed upon MAC-EWEN/MAC-EWAN (MAC EOGHAIN? seamingly "saxonization" under the forms: EUNSON/EWENSON in eastern Scotland) as MACKINTOSH for MAC-INTOSH



Moesan, Kehoe is Irish. Mac Ceóch, Mac Keogh, Keogh are variants of Mac Eochadha [ son of Eochaidh..common personal name in ancient Ireland].
There was a Leinster stock and a Ui Maine stock [descended from Maine Mor] I think this is the one in question.

MOESAN
01-03-13, 20:36
Moesan, Kehoe is Irish. Mac Ceóch, Mac Keogh, Keogh are variants of Mac Eochadha [ son of Eochaidh..common personal name in ancient Ireland].
There was a Leinster stock and a Ui Maine stock [descended from Maine Mor] I think this is the one in question.

thanks Hope (I think this explication was given yet, maybe by yourself -
my remark was only about the apprently false link between all these KEOGH/KEHOE cognates AND KEOWN

hope
01-03-13, 21:35
thanks Hope (I think this explication was given yet, maybe by yourself -
my remark was only about the apprently false link between all these KEOGH/KEHOE cognates AND KEOWN


I see :smile:

Well in case you have not come across the Keown yet, it is Irish too according to Woulfe. It is listed as MacEóin
[which was assumed by a Scottish family who settled around the Glens of Antrim].
Also acc. to Woulfe there is another name which is pronounced almost in same way which is of course Mac Eoghain. I think Selwyn Greenfrith noticed Keown might be Irish.

MOESAN
03-03-13, 16:47
I see :smile:

Well in case you have not come across the Keown yet, it is Irish too according to Woulfe. It is listed as MacEóin
[which was assumed by a Scottish family who settled around the Glens of Antrim].
Also acc. to Woulfe there is another name which is pronounced almost in same way which is of course Mac Eoghain. I think Selwyn Greenfrith noticed Keown might be Irish.

OK no big surprise - If I don't do any mistake, Eoin is one of the irish gaelic forms for John/Jean/Yann/Giobanni... not very far (phonetics) from Eoghain descendant words-

Hal Fao
04-03-13, 14:01
It is very probable that Albanian word kalë (horse) be related with the verb kaloj (“pass”, “go off”, “transfer”, “overstep”, etc.). As I’ve pointed out, the suffix “-oj” turns a noun into a verb, but actually Albanian lacks the noun kal/ë (“pass”, “transfer” …) and there does exist only kalë (horse) instead.

Hansas
19-09-13, 09:36
Somehow it might be a polish construct of kon (horse) and wal (hit with hammer), hens konwal -> kowal (smith that makes iron horseshoes and installs them with nails to the hoofs.)

In lithuanian:
"kalvis" - the smith (human)
"kalvė" - smith workshop, smith house
"kalti" - verb ("to hit" with hammer)
"kaltas, kaltuvas" - chisel, cutter, gouge - you hit it with hummer

About horse in lithuania:
"žirgas" - nice, big horse; war horse; sport horse
"kumelė - female horse;
"kumelys, kumeliukas" - young horse
"kuinas" - weak, skinny old horse
"ašva" - old lithuanian 'kumelė"
"arklys" - working horse, linked to "arklas". Look in wikipedia for "ard_(plough) - arklas"

"asilas" - donkey

We have lots of words to describe horses by color: "juodbėras, kirsnas, bėras, sartas, raudas, kaštanas, palšas, šėmas, pelėkas, širmas, obuolmušas, bulanas, gelsvis, derešas, keršas, šlakis, šyvis, laukas..." :)

Адам. Б. К.
18-09-19, 01:31
In Circassian (Adyghe) (West Caucasian group of languages) the word "horse" is pronounced something like this:
"shee" - horse

Suppose that thanks to the “mountain isolation” in the Circassian language, tokens lost by the European languages ​​(what is called polysyntheism) are preserved
If, with the help of the Circassian language tokens, we try to decompose the words of European languages ​​denoting a horse, it will turn out something like this (with the maximum allowance for the original pronunciation in each of the languages ​​presented):

loshad (rusland) "loo" - allowing to fight "sha" - horse, "d" - (indicates the possibility of action)
horse (english) "ho" - man, "ris" - what is sitting on
caballo (spanish) "keualo" - explosive, (or the one they beat)
cavallo (italy) "keualo" - explosive, (or the one they beat)
cheval (france) "shee" - horse "ual" - mad
pferd (germany) "pfer" - the one you drive, "d" - (indicates the possibility of action)
equo (latin) "e" - (pointer to something), "k" + “diphthong“ + "o" - move
kon (poland) "k" + “diphthong“ + "on" - move, head somewhere
ceffyl (wales) "kefil" - fitted
capall (ireland) "kep" + “diphthong“ + "il" - the one you hold (held)
hestur (island) "he" - carrier "str" - fever
hevonen (finland) "heuon" - the one you hit, "en" - the end of the verb in undefined form

The problem is that the polysynthesis of the Circassian language is so rich that there can be many options for transcription. For example: imagine that each separate letter of the Latin alphabet in the Circassian language means a separate word (or several words), combinations of two letters mean a separate word (or several words), etc.

What this all means, I do not fully understand. When I tried to show this in Russia, I was treated as an ethnic nationalist. But I just don’t know tokens in other languages.
In the manner shown, many words can be decomposed in Western European languages.

gandalf
21-10-19, 19:31
I did not read all posts , but an idea came to mind .
The gaulish word Caballos that gave the french Cheval , is probably based on an onomatopoeia ( onomatopée in french is far easier ! ) , imitating the noise of a horse galloping
( an english word from the same origin , onomatopoeia of the same meaning) . This word Caballos gave a few other in french like : galloper , cavaler ( to run fast ) .
So it is probably not the only word used by the Gauls to name a horse , but a word that became popular , Ekos could be another one ?

MOESAN
07-02-20, 16:42
horse in gaulish 'epos' + 'caballos'* + I think 'marcos' (stalion?) - 'caballos' seems linked to 'capall'/'ceffyll' (see 'corp'/'corff' in gaelic and welsh) and slavic 'koyla' (mare) - phonetically, the forms of the insular Celtics seem unregular (unvoiced consonnants), as loaned through an intermediary pop (Rhaetic close to Etrusque???)
the cultures where horses played a big role have always a lot of specialized words accordint ot the usages done with these horses (work, war, race, reproduction...)
I doubt 'galloper' has something in common with 'cavaler'

MOESAN
07-02-20, 20:34
Slavic 'kobyla', sorry! But I think you knew where I made my error.

Yetos
09-02-20, 03:40
Epona
Celtic deity

It is obvious the change Q-P in Celtic
as it is in Greek
from IE ekw-os
Mykenean ικκος
greek ιππος

https://www.ancient.eu/img/r/p/500x600/5421.jpg?v=1485682312

gandalf
12-02-20, 22:56
horse in gaulish 'epos' + 'caballos'* + I think 'marcos' (stalion?) - 'caballos' seems linked to 'capall'/'ceffyll' (see 'corp'/'corff' in gaelic and welsh) and slavic 'koyla' (mare) - phonetically, the forms of the insular Celtics seem unregular (unvoiced consonnants), as loaned through an intermediary pop (Rhaetic close to Etrusque???)
the cultures where horses played a big role have always a lot of specialized words accordint ot the usages done with these horses (work, war, race, reproduction...)
I doubt 'galloper' has something in common with 'cavaler'

Cavaler gave the word Cavalier or horse rider , and of course it is also based on Cabalos ( onomatopoeia from a horse galloping , gallop , galloper ) .

MOESAN
14-02-20, 19:41
Cavaler gave the word Cavalier or horse rider , and of course it is also based on Cabalos ( onomatopoeia from a horse galloping , gallop , galloper ) .

Possible, but I 'm not convinced for this word. Sorry.