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Maciamo
10-02-13, 10:02
We have discussed this topic extensively in various threads on the forum over the years, but there doesn't seem to be one thread dedicated to the subject. I will summarise my thoughts here so that I don't have to repeat myself every time.

As I have explained in my R1b history (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#European), between 2500 and 1800 BCE Western Europe was invaded by Bronze-age Indo-European speakers carrying mostly the R1b paternal lineage.

I could be believed that the Basques escaped this Indo-European invasion because they retained their non-IE language to this day. That is not the case.

In Iberia, it seems that the (Proto-)Celts of the early Bronze Age simply failed to impose their language not just over the Basque and Aquitanians, but also over all Mediterranean Iberia. In fact, there is no conclusive evidence that (Proto-)Celtic was spoken in Iberia before the Iron Age, with the La Tène expansion of the Celts to Northeast Iberia. Iberian was still spoken when the Romans arrived. It was the Romanisation that eventually obliterated Iberian language around the 2nd century.

I think it is very possible that all Iberia and Southwest France, and not just the Basques, kept their original Neolithic languages following the Bronze Age Indo-European invasions.

The survival of the indigenous language would have been the most likely scenario if the IE/R1b invaders were predominantly men. An army of adventurous Celtic men riding horses and equipped with bronze weapons could have butchered a substantial part of the Neolithic Iberian male population and taken their women. As good conquerors they would have taken many wives or concubines each (polygamy), having a great many children each, which helped the spread of R1b Y-DNA lineages (see How did R1b become dominant in Western Europe (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#R1b-conquest)). Children, however, learn the language of the people who raise them, and these kinds of fathers would not have been able to take care of so many children. They would have concentrated on ruling their new land and enjoying their privileges, and left the education of their offspring to the (local) women.

After one, or a few, generation(s) their IE language would have completed disappeared, leaving only the previous Neolithic languages. It is possible, and even expected, that a few loanwords from (Proto-)Celtic entered the non-IE languages of Iberia and Southwest France to fill the gaps in vocabulary for new Bronze Age technologies brought by the Indo-Europeans. This is exactly what we see in the modern Basque vocabulary. I expect that the same happened to all other non-IE languages of the peninsula in the Bronze Age.

GloomyGonzales
10-02-13, 15:24
As I have explained in my R1b history (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#European), between 2500 and 2000 BCE Western Europe was invaded by Bronze-age Indo-European speakers carrying mostly the R1b paternal lineage.

I could be believed that the Basques escaped this Indo-European invasion because they retained their non-IE language to this day. That is not the case.




R1b folks haven’t been IE horse riders at the first place they were seafarers and belonged to Cardium Pottery or Cardial Ware culture. They migrated from Levant (that’s why R1b Basques have no Caucasian component) by water route along seashore and made first European settlement in present day Albania (see map below).
5812


Albania is the palace where the first European clades below R1b-L23 have appeared. It’s pretty much obvious and can be seen on the map for R1b-L151 and R1b-L51 distribution.

http://foto.rambler.ru/photos/51179ebd-c189-9a89-7d9e-0c95bc909bcb/

Moving along seashores R1b folks soon reached South France then Portugal and Britannia. From history we know them as Ibero-Ligurians. Spread and distribution of U152 clades mirror expansion of Ligures in inland France and Iberian peninsular.
Later they were captured and assimilated be IE folks.

Finalise
10-02-13, 18:49
My last post on this site.


How about this R1b is a western European hg, and R1a is an eastern European haplogroup.

How about maybe because the celts lived in western europe, you're wrongly assuming a modern nation has monopoly over a y-chromosome.

How about maybe the Slavs lived in Eastern Europe, and you're wrongfully assuming the same thing.

How about the Indo-Europeans were a mixture of R1b, R1a, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, considering they were modern tribes living in the cross roads of humanity in Eurasia.

How about there were different tribes of R1b, some pre-IE, some IE.

Can you explain this to me, since R1b is 18,000 years old, and in Chad/Cameroon this goes up to 90% frequency, and those people are definitely not 90% white, are you saying R1b carriers were black 18,000 thousands years ago?

Assuming you're considering them as Europeans 6000 years ago, are you saying they went from black to white in a little over 10,000 years? Think about that.

Ill say it again, as I made this analogy before.

Haplogroups are like stds. You can spread them around, give them to the next person, make maps out of it, but it doesn't tell you anything about the genetic content of the person. It just says they have an std.

Goodbye to you, good sir, and all the people in this forum.

sparkey
11-02-13, 05:54
How about this R1b is a western European hg, and R1a is an eastern European haplogroup.

Anciently/originally? How anciently? Who introduced it? These are the questions we're trying to answer.


How about maybe because the celts lived in western europe, you're wrongly assuming a modern nation has monopoly over a y-chromosome.

Who is saying that "a modern nation has monopoly over a y-chromosome"? You're not responding to anybody.


How about the Indo-Europeans were a mixture of R1b, R1a, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, considering they were modern tribes living in the cross roads of humanity in Eurasia.

Who is saying that the Indo-Europeans were not a mixture? (And seriously? M? You're not even trying.)


How about there were different tribes of R1b, some pre-IE, some IE.

Did anybody say anything that would contradict this? The question is how a particular non-IE group came to be R1b dominant.


Can you explain this to me, since R1b is 18,000 years old, and in Chad/Cameroon this goes up to 90% frequency, and those people are definitely not 90% white, are you saying R1b carriers were black 18,000 thousands years ago?

That doesn't follow under anybody's logic that I've read.


Assuming you're considering them as Europeans 6000 years ago, are you saying they went from black to white in a little over 10,000 years? Think about that.

I would think about that... but it doesn't make any sense...


Ill say it again, as I made this analogy before.

Haplogroups are like stds. You can spread them around, give them to the next person, make maps out of it, but it doesn't tell you anything about the genetic content of the person. It just says they have an std.

That's nonsensical. A Y-DNA haplogroup is a part of the genetics of a man. You're also severely underestimating the amount of information Y-DNA analysis of populations can contain. It has many advantages over autosomal analysis, the most important being that it is much easier to date. It is also easier to isolate certain strains (haplogroups vs. components) and assign meaning to them.

Your STD analogy only works to a point. Actually, if we were to sample virus strains and determine their phylogeny, we would have a very good understanding of how they were passed historically, as well as the point of origin... of the virus. If you want to find points of origins of human paternal lineages, obviously Y-DNA is much more useful than STDs.


Goodbye to you, good sir, and all the people in this forum.

See ya.

zanipolo
11-02-13, 07:32
My last post on this site.




This is the 3rd "last post" you mentioned.

zanipolo
11-02-13, 07:34
R1b folks haven’t been IE horse riders at the first place they were seafarers and belonged to Cardium Pottery or Cardial Ware culture. They migrated from Levant (that’s why R1b Basques have no Caucasian component) by water route along seashore and made first European settlement in present day Albania (see map below).
5812


Albania is the palace where the first European clades below R1b-L23 have appeared. It’s pretty much obvious and can be seen on the map for R1b-L151 and R1b-L51 distribution.

http://foto.rambler.ru/photos/51179ebd-c189-9a89-7d9e-0c95bc909bcb/

Moving along seashores R1b folks soon reached South France then Portugal and Britannia. From history we know them as Ibero-Ligurians. Spread and distribution of U152 clades mirror expansion of Ligures in inland France and Iberian peninsular.
Later they were captured and assimilated be IE folks.

I have seen this before and do not entirely diagree with it. it does mean a landing anywhere between the Italian riviera and catalonia

Knovas
11-02-13, 16:38
I'd like to add:

- We have late Neolithic R1b from del Bell Beaker site in Germany, so definetely predates the Bronze Age. Just a remark, I know it's probably irrelevant if it's a late Neolithic or an Early Bronze Age event.

- Taking autosomal tests as reference, the Basques along with Sardinians seem to be the least affected by the IE invasions. One could wonder if there were many different IE waves, and the first speakers in Europe were not the carriers of some components. Or in other words, there wasn't much of a difference between the first IE invaders and the Neolithic population regarding genetics.

nordicwarrior
11-02-13, 18:49
The survival of the indigenous language would have been the most likely scenario if the IE/R1b invaders were predominantly men. An army of adventurous Celtic men riding horses and equipped with bronze weapons could have butchered a substantial part of the Neolithic Iberian male population and taken their women. As good conquerors they would have taken many wives or concubines each (polygamy), having a great many children each, which helped the spread of R1b Y-DNA lineages (see How did R1b become dominant in Western Europe (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#R1b-conquest)). Children, however, learn the language of the people who raise them, and these kinds of fathers would not have been able to take care of so many children. They would have concentrated on ruling their new land and enjoying their privileges, and left the education of their offspring to the (local) women.

Replace the horses with boats and this sounds alot like the Vikings. Or the Anglo-Saxons. Or even the Normans. What comes around goes around I guess.

R1b hasn't always been the sedate, cultured haplogroup we see today. And here I was feeling guilty about I1's past rampages.

nordicwarrior
12-02-13, 16:35
Finalise, you should reconsider leaving the site. Just because you have a differing opinion from another individual (or group), that's no reason to excuse yourself from the exchange of ideas. Life is about contrasting viewpoints, if everyone agreed all the time wouldn't we all get bored quickly?

Plenty of language experts on Eupedia would love nothing more than to dissect past perfect tenses of Latin verbs with you. That's not my thing, but I don't begrudge others for their niche interests-- nor should you. So please continue to contribute on this site, and use your sense of humor as a shield to protect you from any errant blows.

Now back to R1b Basque... I don't see how this tribe could maintain such a seperate identity by travelling through an over-land route. I'm thinking they originally arrived in Iberia by boat (via Med. Sea) with not much interaction along the way. And their current population advantage comes from implementing more complex organizational networks over time rather than pressing military advantages.

Sennevini
12-02-13, 18:20
I still think it is possible that R1b in Western Europe can be a late Neolithic fenomenon before the arrival of Indo-European languages. It is possible for people in a large area to take their language from a small ruling elite (see Hungarians, Romance people).

Knovas
12-02-13, 19:20
There was already R1b during the late Neolithic. If they were IE speakers or not, that's another issue, but seems pretty much a Celtic marker (or mostly carried by Celts), who clearly spoke IE. On the other hand, what it's an evidence is that, despite the high R1b levels among Basques, they fall definetely outside the modern European variation when checking autosomal tests. That means overall they were the least affected by the successive migrations, and possibly R1b has little to do with some components, specially the West Asian genetic signature, the one which seems to correlate with the IE irruption into Europe. But as I said, maybe the initial wave only carried a haplogroup (R1b), and we could be dealing with a population fairly similar to the Neolithic pre-IE inhabitants in genetic terms. That would explain why the Basques still show such a curious peculiarity, and points to the need of another explanation for the autosomal results.

If the answer is that only some types of R1b carried the West Asian related components, then I am not enough versed to speculate which ones and why the Basques were not impregned by them. That would probably consist on checking common subclades which Basques lack or simply possess at very low levels.

nordicwarrior
12-02-13, 20:21
Sennevini and Knovas--both of your last comments work with my Med. boat theory. Travel over water gets them to Iberia faster and earlier than wandering on foot (or even horse).

Sennevini
12-02-13, 21:52
I think there are two ways in which R1b could have reached Western Europe, all of which is just guessing, but we have to start somewhere:

I: They came from Balkan/Anatolia and travelled along the Danube and Rhine, spreading over the more sparse populated Western Europe, profiting in population growth from their late neolithic agriculture for which there was a lot of space in Western Europe.

II: they came from the sea directly (also from Balkan/Anatolia) in Western Europe, but, because the variance of R1b is higher in France than Iberia, I prefer the place of arrival then more in Southern France.

For now, if R1b can be connected with a pre-Indo-European rapid spreading late neolithic culture, I would prefer the Danube setting, but I certainly think we should not underestimate the faring skills of the people in this time.

The arrival of Indo-European just seems slightly to late for me to have tremendous effect on the population (even in the more changeable Y-dna) as a whole. As said, language can be taken from a powerful (small) elite, of which there are examples.
That does not mean I disregard spread of language with spread of people; no, of course, when for example pioneers take possession of a land (as in America, but also in the neolithic), they will take their language with them.

To stay on topic: if we see the spread of R1b as suggested by me, Basque may have been a language spread in neolithic by R1b-people.

nordicwarrior
13-02-13, 02:29
I don't doubt R1b travelled into Europe through the Danube, several different routes over land, through the Baltic, and hugging the Northern coast of the Mediterranean Sea by boat. Their huge numbers indicate multiple methods of arrival in wave after wave.

Here I'm referring specifically to the original Basque settlers though. Their unusual language tells me they made little contact with neighbors on the journey from the Russian steppes (if that's still where science has them pegged) to their new home in Iberia. How else could such a unique language develop?

They would have had to travel over water with little to no neighbor contact--ensuring the purity of the language-- and the Mediterranean route makes the most sense.

Maciamo
13-02-13, 10:53
I think there are two ways in which R1b could have reached Western Europe, all of which is just guessing, but we have to start somewhere:

I: They came from Balkan/Anatolia and travelled along the Danube and Rhine, spreading over the more sparse populated Western Europe, profiting in population growth from their late neolithic agriculture for which there was a lot of space in Western Europe.

II: they came from the sea directly (also from Balkan/Anatolia) in Western Europe, but, because the variance of R1b is higher in France than Iberia, I prefer the place of arrival then more in Southern France.

For now, if R1b can be connected with a pre-Indo-European rapid spreading late neolithic culture, I would prefer the Danube setting, but I certainly think we should not underestimate the faring skills of the people in this time.

I also think that the seafaring abilities of people 5000 years ago would have been sufficient for them to travel long distances across the Black Sea and Mediterranean. However the size of the ships would have been small and they could never have launched a massive migration or invasion by sea. Neolithic farmers certainly used ships to colonise the Mediterranean coast and islands, but I seriously doubt that the Indo-Europeans from the Pontic Steppe did, apart maybe for moving along the Black Sea coast. A small contingent of immigrants landing in France or Iberia would never have been able to take over the whole of Western Europe in a few centuries. That is just not possible. Additionally the archaeological record doesn't show any new Bronze Age or steppe culture springing out of nowhere in France or Iberia, but clearly shows a slow progression from Ukraine and Romania along the Danube, then from Germany to all Western Europe. There is not the slightest doubt about that in my mind.

Ziober
13-02-13, 12:13
I'd like to add:

- We have late Neolithic R1b from del Bell Beaker site in Germany, so definetely predates the Bronze Age. Just a remark, I know it's probably irrelevant if it's a late Neolithic or an Early Bronze Age event.

I think bell beaker culture was originated in SW Iberia. Brought to Europe by celts describing a circle as the clock direction, from west facade into actual France, then Germany, finally from Germany to NE Iberia. The first were tartessian, vettons, celticis, gaellics. The "back to home" cames from Central Europe hallsatt people entering Iberia and becaming celtiberians (actual catalonia, aragon, soria, la rioja, NE castilla la mancha)

http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=10990.320;wap2

nordicwarrior
13-02-13, 14:07
I also think that the seafaring abilities of people 5000 years ago would have been sufficient for them to travel long distances across the Black Sea and Mediterranean. However the size of the ships would have been small and they could never have launched a massive migration or invasion by sea. Neolithic farmers certainly used ships to colonise the Mediterranean coast and islands, but I seriously doubt that the Indo-Europeans from the Pontic Steppe did, apart maybe for moving along the Black Sea coast. A small contingent of immigrants landing in France or Iberia would never have been able to take over the whole of Western Europe in a few centuries. That is just not possible. Additionally the archaeological record doesn't show any new Bronze Age or steppe culture springing out of nowhere in France or Iberia, but clearly shows a slow progression from Ukraine and Romania along the Danube, then from Germany to all Western Europe. There is not the slightest doubt about that in my mind.

Then how do you explain the utter disconnectedness of the Basque language? I agree that most of R1b arrived by the method you've mentioned, but here we are talking only about the Basque people. A large fleet of ships wouldn't be needed-- just 40 or so kayaks or canoes would be more than enough to get the job done. If Iberian was lightly populated at the time of their arrival, the founder population wouldn't have to be very large. Especially if they had a more efficient organizational/governing system than the existing tribe(s).

ElHorsto
13-02-13, 15:49
I'd like to add:

- We have late Neolithic R1b from del Bell Beaker site in Germany, so definetely predates the Bronze Age. Just a remark, I know it's probably irrelevant if it's a late Neolithic or an Early Bronze Age event.


I thought BB R1b represents an additional problem for the IE R1b theory. Do you mean that the R1b in that one Bell Beaker was inherited from very first Bronze age IE invaders and that Bell Beakers were originally not R1b?

Knovas
13-02-13, 18:03
No, I didn't mean this, that point does not look relevant to me. I was just remarking that R1b was present in the late Neolithic, so definitely before the Bronze Age. What maybe we should consider, is that IE languages arrived before the Bronze Age, and R1b could still fit. But you know, late Neolithic or Early Bronze Age...it's pretty much the same. What would be really surprising, is to find R1b in the "middle Neolithic".

What seems clear, is that Basques were the same affected by R1b compared to other groups (Irish, Welsh, Scots, and so on), and they lack the West Asian related componenets or have very low levels, while the others do have noticeable percents usually. So what seems to not fit, is West Asian = R1b, although perhaps only some subclades carried the component. I'm not able to speculate more on the issue as I said, possibly other forumers would do it better than me.

Wilhelm
13-02-13, 18:26
I don't think R1b is related with Indo-european invasions...probably arrived before, and then later came in as a second wave with Indo-Europeans once they adopted the language and culture (Celtic, Italic, Germanic) and probably related with some kind of very primitive Proto-proto-Basque language. What is clear is that R1b translates autosomally with the Atlantic/Western kind of components. For example, in the Eurogenes EUtest, the Atlantic component peaks in Basques, but it is followed by Scottish and Irish people, and then other like Spanairds, French..etc which mimmics very well the frequency of R1b in Europe. This kind of Western components, what is hidden inside of them, is ultimately a mix of West-Asian and Mesolithic Euro (Northern-like), but this west-asian doesn't involve the Caucasus/West-Asian component (as it is non-existant in Basques). So, we assume there have been different waves from West-Asia, of different sources.

ElHorsto
13-02-13, 18:38
No, I didn't mean this, that point does not look relevant to me. I was just remarking that R1b was present in the late Neolithic, so definitely before the Bronze Age. What maybe we should consider, is that IE languages arrived before the Bronze Age, and R1b could still fit. But you know, late Neolithic or Early Bronze Age...it's pretty much the same. What would be really surprising, is to find R1b in the "middle Neolithic".


Thanks, and I agree.



What seems clear, is that Basques were the same affected by R1b compared to other groups (Irish, Welsh, Scots, and so on), and they lack the West Asian related componenets or have very low levels, while the others do have noticeable percents usually. So what seems to not fit, is West Asian = R1b, although perhaps only some subclades carried the component. I'm not able to speculate more on the issue as I said, possibly other forumers would do it better than me.

We did speculate a lot and when I speculate of R1b then I immediately think of the Gedrosia component and the Basques.

kamani
13-02-13, 18:48
Bell Beakers found in:
Iberian peninsula around 2900 BC
Ireland and England around 2500 BC
Central Europe and Balkans around 2500 BC
Sardinia around 2000 BC

This probably means that BB was already R1b, based on the ages of R1b subclades. We know that Corded Ware was IE and a contemporary of BB. We just don't know what language did BB speak (assuming a language family was associated with BB). My hunch is that it was a caucasian language simmilar to basque. So Basque never became R1b; Basque always was R1b, just everybody else became IE.

Knovas
13-02-13, 19:34
We did speculate a lot and when I speculate of R1b then I immediately think of the Gedrosia component and the Basques.
The correct thing, in my honest opinion, is to check as much admixture experiments as possible. And when doing this, one definitely must recognise that Basques, along with Sardinians, are the least afected by the West Asian related components. That's what we usually see, so whatever it is present among them, it's little relevant compared to other groups. Keep in mind in that particular run the Atlantic-Med component was so remote, even compared to the North European. So for instance, it's not the same 8% Gedrosian among the Irish, and 8% Gedrosian among Basques. Admixture proportions make the picture fairly different, I think it's clear what I mean.

ElHorsto
13-02-13, 20:02
The correct thing, in my honest opinion, is to check as much admixture experiments as possible. And when doing this, one definitely must recognise that Basques, along with Sardinians, are the least afected by the West Asian related components. That's what we usually see, so whatever it is present among them, it's little relevant compared to other groups.


Even if they are least affected (apart from Saami and Finns), they are not completely unaffected. And R1b would be an elegant explanation. Also remember that Sardinians have lowest Gedrosia admixture and coincidentally much lower R1b too, but much more G instead. The higher West Asian component further east in Italy, Balkans and Alps can be explained by other than R1b-only intrusions (LBK,...).

Ziober
13-02-13, 23:15
Then how do you explain the utter disconnectedness of the Basque language? I agree that most of R1b arrived by the method you've mentioned, but here we are talking only about the Basque people. A large fleet of ships wouldn't be needed-- just 40 or so kayaks or canoes would be more than enough to get the job done. If Iberian was lightly populated at the time of their arrival, the founder population wouldn't have to be very large. Especially if they had a more efficient organizational/governing system than the existing tribe(s).


I think Iberia was the most populated place in Europe at the time of IE migrations into europe because de glaciations. And I think R1a was IE, R1b was Iberian mutation on R1a. So R1a cames to Iberia several time before the IE biggest migration waves.

Knovas
13-02-13, 23:25
Sorry, but you're assuming R1b comes from R1a, and that's completely wrong. R1a and R1b share a common ancestor (R1), so what you say makes absolutely no sense.

Check this: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_haplogroups_timeline.shtml

Wilhelm
13-02-13, 23:54
Even if they are least affected (apart from Saami and Finns), they are not completely unaffected. And R1b would be an elegant explanation. Also remember that Sardinians have lowest Gedrosia admixture and coincidentally much lower R1b too, but much more G instead. The higher West Asian component further east in Italy, Balkans and Alps can be explained by other than R1b-only intrusions (LBK,...).
I think so..but this Gedrosia component is most time hidden into the Western/Atlantic type of components. If you lookt at the experiments of Dieneks, correlating components between different calculators, you'll see that Atlantic components are a mix of West-Asian (makes sense, it's where R1b originated) and old Northern-euro probably Mesolithic-Palaeolithic.

Knovas
14-02-13, 00:10
Concerning the run he mentions, it's not the Atlantic-Med component the one hiding this admixture, but rather the North European. There's a clear Asian shift there (lacking inside Atlantic-Med), so that's what really makes sense to me.

Maciamo
14-02-13, 11:19
Then how do you explain the utter disconnectedness of the Basque language? I agree that most of R1b arrived by the method you've mentioned, but here we are talking only about the Basque people.

Like I explained at the beginning of this thread. During the first invasion of Iberia by R1b, the male-only elite assimilated the local culture and language within a few generations, just like the Germanic tribes who invaded the Roman Empire. Celtic languages may only have taken hold during the Iron Age, when the La Tène culture "receltisied" northern and western Iberia.


A large fleet of ships wouldn't be needed-- just 40 or so kayaks or canoes would be more than enough to get the job done. If Iberian was lightly populated at the time of their arrival, the founder population wouldn't have to be very large. Especially if they had a more efficient organizational/governing system than the existing tribe(s).

How would have horses have travelled on canoes ? Btw, Neolithic Iberia was not that lightly populated. Mediterranean regions were always much more populated than northern Europe and especially the steppes.

Maciamo
14-02-13, 11:56
No, I didn't mean this, that point does not look relevant to me. I was just remarking that R1b was present in the late Neolithic, so definitely before the Bronze Age. What maybe we should consider, is that IE languages arrived before the Bronze Age, and R1b could still fit. But you know, late Neolithic or Early Bronze Age...it's pretty much the same. What would be really surprising, is to find R1b in the "middle Neolithic".

R1b has never been found in Neolithic sites in Europe. The earliest was a late Bell Beaker site in Thuringia that was adjacent to the Bronze-age Corded Ware culture (to the north) and the Bronze-age Danubian cultures that I associated with the spread of R1b. The spread of Bronze Age cultures from the Pontic steppes is undeniable from an archaeological point of view. It follows this path :

First Phase

- Yamna culture (3500-2200 BCE) in Ukraine and southern Russia.
- Usatovo culture (3500-3000 BCE) in Romania, Moldavia, and southern Ukraine.

Second Phase

- Coţofeni culture (3300-2500 BCE) in northern and western Romania and north-east Serbia.
- Ezero culture (3300-2700 BCE) in Bulgaria.

Third Phase

- Sighişoara-Wietenberg culture (2200-1550 BCE) in central Transylvania.
- Ottomány/Alföld culture (2100-1700 BCE) in Hungary.
- Unetice culture (2300-1600 BCE) in Czechia, Austria, southern and central Germany, and western Poland.

Fourth Phase

- Tumulus culture (1600-1200 BCE) in Central Europe and eastern France.
- Terramare culture (1700-1150 BCE) in northern Italy (Po valley).

Ziober
14-02-13, 11:56
Sorry, but you're assuming R1b comes from R1a, and that's completely wrong. R1a and R1b share a common ancestor (R1), so what you say makes absolutely no sense.Check this: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_haplogroups_timeline.shtmlProbably I was wrong in any term, but it does not meant all that I'd said have no sense. If all what we talk in a forum would be right, the forum would haven't sense we only would need a blog. In the tree you did put isn't refered to any sourcesneither data, We only can see a drawing, even in that tree appear on the top; "some ESTIMATIONS are owns, when no reliable source was available" this is not to serious when all forum readers can see how exceptics are some of the forum admins about the Celts From the West theory. I would like to know the link between r1 and r1b, but mAybe there are no reliable data, I don't know.I'd liked the maciamo's expression "receltization of Iberia" cause it is probed in Iberia were celts before halstatt la tenne people cames.

Knovas
14-02-13, 16:28
R1b has never been found in Neolithic sites in Europe.

Just clarify I said LATE NEOLITHIC, exactly what the abstract pointed. So that's what it is:

At this period during the Late Neolithic (ca. 2,800–2,000 BC), regionally distinctive burial patterns associated with two different cultural groups emerge, Bell Beaker and Corded Ware, and may reflect differences in how these societies were organized. Ancient DNA analyses of human remains from the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker site of Kromsdorf, Germany showed distinct mitochondrial haplotypes for six individuals, which were classified under the haplogroups I1, K1, T1, U2, U5, and W5, and two males were identified as belonging to the Y haplogroup R1b.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.es/search?q=bell+beakers

PD: Thanks for the summary though.


Probably I was wrong in any term, but it does not meant all that I'd said have no sense. If all what we talk in a forum would be right, the forum would haven't sense we only would need a blog. In the tree you did put isn't refered to any sourcesneither data, We only can see a drawing, even in that tree appear on the top; "some ESTIMATIONS are owns, when no reliable source was available" this is not to serious when all forum readers can see how exceptics are some of the forum admins about the Celts From the West theory. I would like to know the link between r1 and r1b, but mAybe there are no reliable data, I don't know.I'd liked the maciamo's expression "receltization of Iberia" cause it is probed in Iberia were celts before halstatt la tenne people cames.

I'm afraid there's no discussion: both R1a and R1b split from R1, so your point that R1a inhabited Iberia earlier than elsewhere and changed gradually to R1b, was completely wrong. You were speculating, I know, but not me. My focus was this one, I did no say anything about other things you posted.

Maciamo
14-02-13, 17:17
Just clarify I said LATE NEOLITHIC, exactly what the abstract pointed. So that's what it is:

At this period during the Late Neolithic (ca. 2,800–2,000 BC), regionally distinctive burial patterns associated with two different cultural groups emerge, Bell Beaker and Corded Ware, and may reflect differences in how these societies were organized. Ancient DNA analyses of human remains from the Late Neolithic Bell Beaker site of Kromsdorf, Germany showed distinct mitochondrial haplotypes for six individuals, which were classified under the haplogroups I1, K1, T1, U2, U5, and W5, and two males were identified as belonging to the Y haplogroup R1b.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.es/search?q=bell+beakers


Whatever the abstract said, the Bell-Beaker culture was not Neolithic, but Chalcolithic to Bronze Age. It is an oft misunderstood fact since the Beaker folks moved into the Megalithic cultures of Western Europe, which were Neolithic. The Megalithic culture survived in juxtaposition throughout the Beaker period.

The Bell-Beaker culture is an important transitional culture since it frames the period when bronze technologies first entered into Western Europe. I believe that R1b first penetrated into Germany and Western Europe during the Beaker period. They would have been only a small minority of migrants/invaders. Just like early Neolithic farmers lived side-by-side with indigenous hunter-gathers when they moved into Europe, the Bronze-age Beaker people settling a few isolated sites and traded with their Megalithic neighbours, which is why beaker pottery ended up in Megalithic sites too. However bronze technologies were not a widely adopted by the whole of Central/Western European society yet. This only happened with later advances from the Indo-Europeans (Tumulus, Hallstatt, La Tène...), when more R1b people flocked in.

I believe that the R1b sample found in Thuringia in just one of those early adventurers who moved west from the Hungarian plain.

nordicwarrior
14-02-13, 17:23
Like I explained at the beginning of this thread. During the first invasion of Iberia by R1b, the male-only elite assimilated the local culture and language within a few generations, just like the Germanic tribes who invaded the Roman Empire. Celtic languages may only have taken hold during the Iron Age, when the La Tène culture "receltisied" northern and western Iberia.

Not a great comparison from any angle... modern day Iberia is full of R1b, but where is the Germanic markers in the Roman Empire lands?

Horses absolutely love canoes, as long as you train them from an earlier age. They can be trained to row using their teeth and hoofs. R1b were fantastic horse whisperers.:rolleyes2:

Actually with my theory I have the Basque as the first group into Iberia from R1b lines, and they would have moved in without horses. Other branches of R1b would have brought horses later. This is the only way to account for the strangeness of the Basque language.

Knovas
14-02-13, 18:14
Whatever the abstract said, the Bell-Beaker culture was not Neolithic, but Chalcolithic to Bronze Age. It is an oft misunderstood fact since the Beaker folks moved into the Megalithic cultures of Western Europe, which were Neolithic. The Megalithic culture survived in juxtaposition throughout the Beaker period.

The Bell-Beaker culture is an important transitional culture since it frames the period when bronze technologies first entered into Western Europe. I believe that R1b first penetrated into Germany and Western Europe during the Beaker period. They would have been only a small minority of migrants/invaders. Just like early Neolithic farmers lived side-by-side with indigenous hunter-gathers when they moved into Europe, the Bronze-age Beaker people settling a few isolated sites and traded with their Megalithic neighbours, which is why beaker pottery ended up in Megalithic sites too. However bronze technologies were not a widely adopted by the whole of Central/Western European society yet. This only happened with later advances from the Indo-Europeans (Tumulus, Hallstatt, La Tène...), when more R1b people flocked in.

I believe that the R1b sample found in Thuringia in just one of those early adventurers who moved west from the Hungarian plain.

Not bad. There's basically a terminology consistency issue on that question. I previously remarked there wasn't much of a difference between Late Neolithic (or the transitional period you descrive above), and the Early Bronze Age. Just a concretion, I never gave it more relevance than that.

Your scenario seems plausible, although we cannot discard a surprising Neolithic finding. Let's assume you're right (I think so):

- Do you think R1b carried the West Asian related components (we can include: West Asian, Caucasus, Gedrosia, South Asian, etc. depending on the run), which seem to have something to do with IE?

- If yes, ¿Why then the Basques lack them most times?

Just want to know your point of view, some of us already posted some things.

Ziober
14-02-13, 21:05
I'm afraid there's no discussion: both R1a and R1b split from R1, so your point that R1a inhabited Iberia earlier than elsewhere and changed gradually to R1b, was completely wrong. You were speculating, I know, but not me. My focus was this one, I did no say anything about other things you posted.


I had read this today:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M173_%28Y-DNA%29

I was wrong in the terminology, I could see how r1b was older than r1a, OK, but maintain my idea, so you change R1a by M173. Some M173 people cames to Iberia and was mutated to M343 before the biggest IE migration waves were arrived into Iberia. And I agree with Maciamo about the antique r1b founded in Turkey cames from western voyagers, but before Germany they stays in Iberia.

In the other hand, I must to search sources that I had read about the ancient horses in Iberia, and how its were the most powerful equestrian strains over Europe, so there nobody brought the horses to Iberia, but the oposite.

Taranis
14-02-13, 22:07
I was going to make a longer reply here about my own views, but I'm going for something slightly different.

Family Tree DNA (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/default.aspx?section=ymap)'s R1b data is fairly large - large enough to have, in my opinion, a fairly representative sample size. Maciamo made this tree of R1b (http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-tree.gif). If you don't like his, you can look for an other elsewhere. In any case, combine the two informations and you get a rough idea of what potential migration patterns R1b may have taken. I do not know if you will come to the same conclusions as I have, but to me it looks like R1b's expansion pattern in western Europe does not add up with the expansion pattern of the Beaker-Bell Culture. The common consensus of all (http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1000285) semi-recent (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3039512/?tool=pubmed) papers is that R1b arrived in Western Europe in the Neolithic or later. Since it failed to turn up in Neolithic sites (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/10/24/1113061108.abstract) with exception of the Beaker-Bell site in Germany (http://uni-kiel.academia.edu/CherylMakarewicz/Papers/1663118/Emerging_genetic_patterns_of_the_European_Neolithi c_perspectives_from_a_Late_Neolithic_Bell_Beaker_b urial_site_in_Germany) (which is more Chalcolithic than Neolithic), it's only a logical conclusion that R1b arrived afterwards.

Wether the Beaker-Bell Culture and/or the carriers of R1b were Indo-Europeans, or not, I'm leaving you to decide for yourself. :wary2:

With regard for Celtic presence in Iberia, I disagree with Maciamo's statement that Celtic (or Indo-European) presence arrived in Iberia only in the iron age. Presence in the north (http://ifc.dpz.es/recursos/publicaciones/28/40/02curchin.pdf) and west (http://www4.uwm.edu/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes/vol6/6_16/lujan_6_16.pdf) of Iberia is so dense and there is no clear sign of a pre-Indo-European presence in western Iberia. To me thus suggests that Indo-European-speaking peoples arrived in Iberia already in the Bronze Age. The Basques of Antiquity - in contrast - lived in a more easterly area than today (Navarre, western to central Pyrenees, SW France).

Ziober
15-02-13, 17:27
In my opinion basques are the same indoeuropeans whose arrived to SW Iberia, then happened the mutation to R1b, migrating to the north, so basques were R1b (IE) which adopted the language of their hand to hand neighbors, the iberians (southern cromanoids) so basque language is indeed the Iberian pre-IE language (or cromanoid language)

Ziober
16-02-13, 16:10
About the ancient and independent autochthonous horse domestication in the Iberian peninsula:

http://www.horseshowcentral.com/horse_breeds/iberian_horse/333/1
http://www.soscaballolosino.com/Entrada-razasautoctonas/Entrada%20caballos/Pinturas%20ecuestres.htm
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0018194

This fact would support the hypothesis about Iberian origin of celtic culture and their warhorses.

Mikewww
19-02-13, 04:48
I think Iberia was the most populated place in Europe at the time of IE migrations into europe because de glaciations. And I think R1a was IE, R1b was Iberian mutation on R1a.

I'm not following your thinking. R1b and R1a are parallel mutations under R1. Are you saying R1 is Iberian?


So R1a cames to Iberia several time before the IE biggest migration waves.

What happened to the R1a in Iberia?

Ziober
19-02-13, 08:56
Hi Mikewww. I wanted to say that the mutation on M173 to M343 happened in iberia, so I'm saying R1b was originated in Iberia. There are people in the thread wondering how was possible to bring horses in ancient boats, then I told how was no needed to brought horses into Iberia, cause there are signs of a parallel independent domestication of horse in the Iberian peninsula.

Taranis
19-02-13, 12:34
Hi Mikewww. I wanted to say that the mutation on M173 to M343 happened in iberia, so I'm saying R1b was originated in Iberia. There are people in the thread wondering how was possible to bring horses in ancient boats, then I told how was no needed to brought horses into Iberia, cause there are signs of a parallel independent domestication of horse in the Iberian peninsula.

R1b did not originate in Iberia. Why do you still keep believing this? There is no data to back such a claim up. You can also check the tree of R1b again: http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-tree.gif - all the more ancient subclades of R1b are found outside of Western Europe. There is not even a particularly good reason to assume that it entered Europe via Iberia. If you take a look at the data from Family Tree DNA which I posted earlier, the only really abundant subclade of R1b is P312, and as it was speculated in another thread, much of it probably is part of subclade DF27.

Also, as LeBrok pointed out, only mitochondrial horse lineages seem to have an independent origin in Iberia, which means that local mares were interbred with stallions from the steppe, not that horses were domesticated independently. If it was, how is this connected with R1b?

Back on the original topic, it should be pointed out that we do not know at what point the Basques became R1b-dominant.

Ziober
19-02-13, 14:20
You can continue with that outdated northicist IE supremacy theories from early XX century Central Europe ideas. But I must to tell you that celtithity was originated in the iberian peninsula by the R1b people.

What are you trying tp prove with that your own made map?. I couldn't understood... It say nothing about R1b origins, adding that it had built by you or your ideology mates.

In Iberia wasn't extincted the horses in holocene period, in the rest of europe done. Here were 2 horse species capable to be rode. Here are Paleolithic cave paints with horse domestication scenes. Today ramain 2 races from that wild authochthonous iberian horses, the lusitanian and the sorraia mustangs. If in the actual horse selection there are mtcdADN is because there were a specie apt to ride on, as the females the males. This is a common sense matter.

About the basques I'll repeat the same. The basques of today weren't the original basque speakers, they were probably southern cromanoids, the basques were their close neighbors whose adopted that language as own, but the basques of today descend from the first celts.

Taranis
19-02-13, 14:40
You can continue with that outdated northicist IE supremacy theories from early XX century Central Europe ideas. But I must to tell you that celtithity was originated in the iberian peninsula by the R1b people.

Funny, that accusation makes no sense, because I wasn't even talking about the Celtic languages. I was only talking about the origin of R1b, which didn't originate on the Iberian peninsula.

I find the accusation especially funny because I argued earlier that Celtic languages were actually spoken in Bronze Age iberia:


With regard for Celtic presence in Iberia, I disagree with Maciamo's statement that Celtic (or Indo-European) presence arrived in Iberia only in the iron age. Presence in the north (http://ifc.dpz.es/recursos/publicaciones/28/40/02curchin.pdf) and west (http://www4.uwm.edu/celtic/ekeltoi/volumes/vol6/6_16/lujan_6_16.pdf) of Iberia is so dense and there is no clear sign of a pre-Indo-European presence in western Iberia. To me thus suggests that Indo-European-speaking peoples arrived in Iberia already in the Bronze Age. The Basques of Antiquity - in contrast - lived in a more easterly area than today (Navarre, western to central Pyrenees, SW France).



What are you trying tp prove with that your own made map?. I couldn't understood... It say nothing about R1b origins, adding that it had built by you or your ideology mates.

Maciamo isn't an "ideological mate" because there is no ideology involved: I was merely talking about the distributions of the various subclades of R1b. But if you do not like Maciamo's tree, you can also take this tree from ISOGG (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html). Work yourself up that tree, you will realize that the most ancient subclades of R1b are found nowhere near Iberia.


In Iberia wasn't extincted the horses in holocene period, in the rest of europe done. Here were 2 horse species capable to be rode. Here are Paleolithic cave paints with horse domestication scenes. Today ramain 2 races from that wild authochthonous iberian horses, the lusitanian and the sorraia mustangs. If in the actual horse selection there are mtcdADN is because there were a specie apt to ride on, as the females the males. This is a common sense matter.

About the basques I'll repeat the same. The basques of today weren't the original basque speakers, they were probably southern cromanoids, the basques were their close neighbors whose adopted that language as own, but the basques of today descend from the first celts.

Sorry, but if the "Celts" really domesticated horses independently, why do the Celtic languages have a common word for "horse" shared with other branches of Indo-European?

Ziober
19-02-13, 17:16
Funny, that accusation makes no sense, because I wasn't even talking about the Celtic languages. I was only talking about the origin of R1b, which didn't originate on the Iberian peninsula.

Well, this is your think against mine, because the origin of M173 is unknown.


I find the accusation especially funny because I argued earlier that Celtic languages were actually spoken in Bronze Age iberia:






Maciamo isn't an "ideological mate" because there is no ideology involved: I was merely talking about the distributions of the various subclades of R1b. But if you do not like Maciamo's tree, you can also take this tree from ISOGG (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html). Work yourself up that tree, you will realize that the most ancient subclades of R1b are found nowhere near Iberia.

These trees only show the chronological order of the subclades, no more, no less. I don't know what do you pretend to prove with these...
When you said "r1b (origin)are found nowhere near to Iberia" you must to say " r1b origin aren't found near to nowhere, and I think you know so good that, so you are confusing at readers, only that.






Sorry, but if the "Celts" really domesticated horses independently, why do the Celtic languages have a common word for "horse" shared with other branches of Indo-European?

I'm saying horse was domesticated in Iberia time ago before celt was an identity, probably by cromagnoids. I don't know if cromagnoids taught celts to domesticate its or was an independent event. I think the M-173 subclade arrives to iberia by boats maybe in neolithic or copper age, and then happend the mutation to M-343 asociated to celts into the iberian peninsula, probably in the SW.

On this source you all can read how the origins of R-M173 remain unclear:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M173_%28Y-DNA%29

Pi gman
23-02-13, 01:01
Personally, I am not really concerned about horses and where they were domesticated unless it can be tied to population movements and it probably can.

I have just discovered this site about cro-magnon man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon. In the article:

"The name derives from the Abri de Cro-Magnon (French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language): rock shelter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_shelter) of Cro-Magnon, the big cave in Occitan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitan_language)) near the commune (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communes_of_France) of Les Eyzies-de-Tayac-Sireuil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Eyzies-de-Tayac-Sireuil) in southwestern France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_France), where the first specimen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon_1) was found.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon#cite_note-wikiwix-6) Being the oldest known modern humans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomically_modern_humans) (Homo sapiens sapiens) in Europe, the Cro-Magnons were from the outset linked to the well-known Lascaux (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lascaux) cave paintings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_painting) and the Aurignacian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurignacian) culture whose remains were well known from southern France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_France) and Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany)."

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What is interesting to me about that is I have traced my surname (although without definite proof) to the Tulle area of Correze in France very near where this skeleton was found near ( Les Eyzies-de-Tayac-Sireuil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Eyzies-de-Tayac-Sireuil) in southwestern France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_France)). Also, there is a photo (above) of a reconstructed Cro-Magnon 30,000 YPB on that site and if you put a Greek nose on him I would look very similar (I am much more handsome though!). The brow ridge on him is more pronounced on him than me but I do have (and all of the male members of my family) the extreme receding hair line, the high forehead, the high cheek bones and wide face and my hat size is at least XL. Interestingly enough my blood type is A negative which fits right in with the Basques who have one of the highest rates of rhesus negative blood types in the world.

The comparison of my STR markers and SNPs are close but I can't really tell. Should I join the Basque y-DNA project.

Curtis Pigman (France - Pigmon / Greece - Pygmon)

You can continue with that outdated northicist IE supremacy theories from early XX century Central Europe ideas. But I must to tell you that celtithity was originated in the iberian peninsula by the R1b people.



What are you trying tp prove with that your own made map?. I couldn't understood... It say nothing about R1b origins, adding that it had built by you or your ideology mates.

In Iberia wasn't extincted the horses in holocene period, in the rest of europe done. Here were 2 horse species capable to be rode. Here are Paleolithic cave paints with horse domestication scenes. Today ramain 2 races from that wild authochthonous iberian horses, the lusitanian and the sorraia mustangs. If in the actual horse selection there are mtcdADN is because there were a specie apt to ride on, as the females the males. This is a common sense matter.

About the basques I'll repeat the same. The basques of today weren't the original basque speakers, they were probably southern cromanoids, the basques were their close neighbors whose adopted that language as own, but the basques of today descend from the first celts.

Pi gman
23-02-13, 03:35
Personally, I am not really concerned about horses and where they were domesticated unless it can be tied to population movements and it probably can.

I have just discovered this site about cro-magnon man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon. In the article:

"The name derives from the Abri de Cro-Magnon (French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language): rock shelter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_shelter) of Cro-Magnon, the big cave in Occitan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitan_language)) near the commune (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communes_of_France) of Les Eyzies-de-Tayac-Sireuil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Eyzies-de-Tayac-Sireuil) in southwestern France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_France), where the first specimen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon_1) was found.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon#cite_note-wikiwix-6) Being the oldest known modern humans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomically_modern_humans) (Homo sapiens sapiens) in Europe, the Cro-Magnons were from the outset linked to the well-known Lascaux (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lascaux) cave paintings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_painting) and the Aurignacian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurignacian) culture whose remains were well known from southern France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_France) and Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany)."

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What is interesting to me about that is I have traced my surname (although without definite proof) to the Tulle area of Correze in France very near where this skeleton was found near ( Les Eyzies-de-Tayac-Sireuil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Eyzies-de-Tayac-Sireuil) in southwestern France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_France)). Also, there is a photo (above) of a reconstructed Cro-Magnon 30,000 YPB on that site and if you put a Greek nose on him I would look very similar (I am much more handsome though!). The brow ridge on him is more pronounced on him than me but I do have (and all of the male members of my family) the extreme receding hair line, the high forehead, the high cheek bones and wide face and my hat size is at least XL. Interestingly enough my blood type is A negative which fits right in with the Basques who have one of the highest rates of rhesus negative blood types in the world.

The comparison of my STR markers and SNPs are close but I can't really tell. Should I join the Basque y-DNA project.

Curtis Pigman (France - Pigmon / Greece - Pygmon)

Oh I forgot to mention in the previous post. In this Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Basques
Origin of the Basques "This hypothesis states that, after the glaciations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age), the survivors of the Cro-Magnon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon) in the European continent searched for warmer places, such as present-day Ukraine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine) and the southwest of the continent,[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Basques#cite_note-ref_duplicada_3-1) settling in the region of the Pyrenees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrenees)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Basques#cite_note-ref_duplicada_1-2) and the south of France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France), due the mitigation of the cold due the Foehn effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foehn_effect).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Basques#cite_note-ref_duplicada_1-2) These settlements near the Pyrenees conformed the proto-Basque people.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Map_of_Palaeolithic_Art.png/270px-Map_of_Palaeolithic_Art.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Palaeolithic_Art.png) http://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.21wmf8/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Palaeolithic_Art.png)
Distribution of Paleolithic settlements in Europe.


Starting in the year 16,000 BCE, the warmer climate allowed the expansion of proto-Basque groups, or proto-Europeans, across the entire continent and the north of Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa),[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Basques#cite_note-ref_duplicada_3-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Basques#cite_note-3) and expanding the Magdalenian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalenian) culture across Europe.
This hypothesis is supported by three different research works, one of them genetic (based on the studies of Forster and Stephen Oppenheimer), the other two linguistic (the works of Theo Venneman)[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)].
The Finnish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland) linguist Kalevi Wiik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalevi_Wiik) proposed in 2008 that the current Basque language is the remainder of a group of "Basque languages" that were spoken in the Paleolithic in all western Europe.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Basques#cite_note-4) and that retreated with the progress of the Indo-European languages. According to Wiik, this theory coincides with the homogeneous distribution of the Haplogroup R1b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29) in Atlantic Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Europe).[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Basques#cite_note-5)
Paleogenetic investigations The geneticist Spencer Wells (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spencer_Wells), director of the Genographic Project (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genographic_Project) of the National Geographic Society (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Geographic_Society) has pointed out that, genetically, the Basques are indistinguishable of the rest of Iberians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberians),[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Basques#cite_note-6) a fact that has been later confirmed by a study led by Jaume Bentranpetit, at the Pompeu Fabra University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompeu_Fabra_University), in Barcelona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcelona).[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Basques#cite_note-7)"



So, as you can see this puts it all together in a hypothetical sort of way.

Curtis Pigman (France - Pigmon / Greece - Pygmon)

nordicwarrior
23-02-13, 04:38
Pi gman, here's a scenerio that may clue you in to the inner-workings of the y-haplogroup scientific crowd.

NASA announces we have been visited by space aliens from a distant galaxy, one that is THOUSANDS of light years away. The media is in a frenzy, the world view is altered for all humankind, and wars are now deemed unneccessary.

Fifteen minutes later Spencer Wells claims that these aliens are projected to be members of his own haplogroup... hg R1b.

Are you starting to see the pattern? If there's a subject matter that is more political, more egocentric, more illustrative of man's tendency to trumpet his ancestors success (real or imagined) over those of his neighbor's... well I want to see it.

So wade into your Paleolithic Basque hypothesis carefully, and bring your sense of humor. You're going to need it. If you don't trust my read on the y-DNA realm, please spend five minutes reviewing any Albanian thread you can find.

After we are all one shade of tawny brown in eight hundred or eight thousand years, this is the stuff we are going to be arguing about... if not waging battles over. Welcome to the future Pi gman! May the force be with you...

nordicwarrior
23-02-13, 04:41
Before the attacks begin...

Yes I'm as guilty as anyone else. Let the arrows commence.

Knovas
23-02-13, 15:37
Basques speak probably the most genuine language in Europe, and it's not true at all that they are indistinguishable from the rest of Iberians: in fact, they are, since they fall clearly outside of the normal European variation, as do the Sardinians. They seem to be the most well preserved populations in Europe nowadays, but this has very little to do with Y-DNA (a single ancestor) and, no need to say, claiming they are direct Cro-Magnon's descent and things like this...you know, that's all exageration.

Pi gman
23-02-13, 20:32
Thank you for your reply. I have been testing my y-DNA and participating in these forums for 3 years now and I know about the attacks and condescension going on.

My take on this is: If you meet with four friends/acquaintances for coffee regularly at the local coffee shop for discussion on whatever subject, you will have four different ways of thinking or parameters about the subject and four different opinions on the supporting information. For instance: My goals are to find my ancestors country of origin and I believe I have done that by looking at history, investigation family lore, comparing y-DNA STRs and SNP, etc. What qualifies as proof? Well, the professional genealogists will not consider it proof until birth, death and marriage certificates are found. Even a census is not to be trusted 100%. In some cases they simply do not exist such as in the 17th and 18th century Colonial American wilderness. If the records did exist somewhere they were burned in a courthouse fire or lost.

The historical records of population movements, wars, diseases can be trusted if they were written by a known reliable source.
Linguists can make a case of similarities between languages and physical anthropology. Physical anthropologists can make a case by using cranial morphology (I use Dienekes racial calculator). Geologists use sediment layers to calculate YBP data and other scientists use radio carbon dating for finding the age of organic material. y-DNA is frustrating because after three years and several tests I have realized that some of my closest matches don't even fit my haplogroup.
Nevertheless, we push on and look for tidbits of information and wait patiently until some genealogy society puts information up on a web site and: Finally! There it is!

The genetic scientific crowd is sort of like Ross in "Friends". When he is junior to the other paleontologists, he is ostracized and even cannot sit with them in the lunchroom. If he happens to not agree with the other scientists' theories he is severely ostracized. When his friends tell him something like "dinosaurs didn't even exist" he is utterly insulted and goes off on a tangent. Of course, they were just messing with him!

My career was in tele-communications technology but I was also interested in cultural anthropology and sociology and studied these subjects to some extent in college. So, I have a keen interest in anthropology, population studies and evolution, genetics as well as genealogy and have had since the 60's.

About the arrows, I have had them shot at me before and that's OK because I can see them coming from the computer screen
and simply dodge them and about the sense of humor, well as you can see, I have one of those too!

As far as opinions go, I served 6 years in the USAF so that we could continue to be free to express our ideas and opinions (hopefully backed up by evidential support). So lets all meet for coffee and discuss things like the adults we are. Pull up a chair. I'll buy the coffee!

Curtis Pigman (France - Pigmon / Greece - Pygmon)



Pi gman, here's a scenerio that may clue you in to the inner-workings of the y-haplogroup scientific crowd.

NASA announces we have been visited by space aliens from a distant galaxy, one that is THOUSANDS of light years away. The media is in a frenzy, the world view is altered for all humankind, and wars are now deemed unneccessary.

Fifteen minutes later Spencer Wells claims that these aliens are projected to be members of his own haplogroup... hg R1b.

Are you starting to see the pattern? If there's a subject matter that is more political, more egocentric, more illustrative of man's tendency to trumpet his ancestors success (real or imagined) over those of his neighbor's... well I want to see it.

So wade into your Paleolithic Basque hypothesis carefully, and bring your sense of humor. You're going to need it. If you don't trust my read on the y-DNA realm, please spend five minutes reviewing any Albanian thread you can find.

After we are all one shade of tawny brown in eight hundred or eight thousand years, this is the stuff we are going to be arguing about... if not waging battles over. Welcome to the future Pi gman! May the force be with you...

nordicwarrior
25-02-13, 03:48
Pi gman, nice comment... I like the coffee shop scenerio.

BTW, my grandfather worked on planes that 'flew the hump' back in WWII. He wasn't USAF because of the timeline, but he was proto USAF anyway.

Pi gman
25-02-13, 04:06
Pi gman, nice comment... I like the coffee shop scenerio.

BTW, my grandfather worked on planes that 'flew the hump' back in WWII. He wasn't USAF because of the timeline, but he was proto USAF anyway.

Thanks Nordic,
I am a Vietnam era veteran who trained for a year and got assigned to the 6942 Tuslog Det 94 in Karamursel, Turkey. I was USAF Security Service with Top Secret clearance need to know and all that. Our job was highly classified but 10 years after my enlistment was up everything I knew and did was de-classified. The short of it is we were intercepting Russian signals. My particular assignment was to intercept and record encrypted Soviet voice associated with MIRV mobile Russian nuclear ICBMs. We had to know where they were at all times.

I lived in a nearby village - Yalova, Turkey for three years and took trips that included the 7 churches of Asia Minor among others. Interesting that I have found out my haplo R1b1a L2+, Z49+ and Z142+ matches numerous samples of a population study of Phocaea and Smyrna (Izmir) Turkey. In history these were Greek city-states of Ionian Greeks. Wish I could go back for a visit! Could by my doppelgänger or cousins are there!

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaea

Phocaea, or Phokaia, (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Φώκαια) (modern-day Foça (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fo%C3%A7a) in Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey)) was an ancient Ionian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionia) Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece) city on the western coast of Anatolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia). Greek colonists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonies_in_antiquity) from Phocaea founded the colony of Massalia[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaea#cite_note-1) (modern day Marseille (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marseille), in France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France)) in 600 BC, Emporion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emporion) (modern day Empúries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emp%C3%BAries), in Catalonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia), Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain)) in 575 BC and Elea (modern day Velia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velia), in Campania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campania), Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy)) in 540 BC.

The ancient Greek geographer Pausanias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pausanias_%28geographer%29) says that Phocaea was founded by Phocians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocis) under Athenian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athens) leadership, on land given to them by the Aeolian Cymaeans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyme_%28Aeolis%29), and that they were admitted into the Ionian League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionian_League) after accepting as kings the line of Codrus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codrus).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaea#cite_note-4) Pottery remains indicate Aeolian presence as late as the 9th century BC, and Ionian presence as early as the end of the 9th century BC. From this an approximate date of settlement for Phocaea can be inferred.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaea#cite_note-Phokaia-5)
According to Herodotus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus) the Phocaeans were the first Greeks to make long sea-voyages, having discovered the coasts of the Adriatic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic), Tyrrhenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrhenia) and Spain. Herodotus relates that they so impressed Arganthonios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arganthonios), king of Tartessus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessus) in Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain), that he invited them to settle there, and, when they declined, gave them a great sum of money to build a wall around their city.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaea#cite_note-6)
Their sea travel was extensive. To the south they probably conducted trade with the Greek colony of Naucratis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naucratis) in Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt), which was the colony of their fellow Ionian city Miletus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miletus). To the north, they probably helped settle Amisos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amisos) (Samsun) on the Black Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea), and Lampsacus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lampsacus) at the north end of the Hellespont (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellespont) (now the Dardanelles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanelles)). However Phocaea's major colonies were to the west. These included Alalia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alalia) in Corsica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corsica), Emporiae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emporiae) and Rhoda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roses,_Girona) in Spain, and especially Massalia (Marseille (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marseille)) in France.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaea#cite_note-Phokaia-5)
Phocaea remained independent until the reign of the Lydian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia) king Croesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croesus) (circa 560–545 BC), when they, along with the rest of mainland Ionia, first, fell under Lydian control[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaea#cite_note-7) and then, along with Lydia (who had allied itself with Sparta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta)) were conquered by Cyrus the Great (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great) of Persia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaemenid_Empire) in 546 BC, in one of the opening skirmishes of the great Greco-Persian conflict (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Persian_Wars).
Rather than submit to Persian rule, the Phocaeans abandoned their city. Some may have fled to Chios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chios), others to their colonies on Corsica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corsica) and elsewhere in the Mediterranean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean), with some eventually returning to Phocaea. Many however became the founders of Elea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velia), around 540 BC.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaea#cite_note-8)

So we have Ionian Greeks entering Corsica, France and Spain.

Curtis Pigman (France - Pigmon/Pimond and Greece - Pygmon)

nordicwarrior
25-02-13, 04:42
Interesting, I have inferred two out four of my great grandfathers to be R1b1a2 (one at about 98% certainty and the other about 85% certainty based on geographic location and ftdna surname results). I'm thinking one might even had Basque ties due to some autosomal readings that pull toward that area.

On a seperate note, did you ever make to Gobekli Tepe during your time in Turkey? I've started a past thread on Gobekli Tepe if you have... I'd like to hear about that area due to it's ancient archeological remains.

Pi gman
25-02-13, 16:31
Interesting, I have inferred two out four of my great grandfathers to be R1b1a2 (one at about 98% certainty and the other about 85% certainty based on geographic location and ftdna surname results). I'm thinking one might even had Basque ties due to some autosomal readings that pull toward that area.

On a separate note, did you ever make to Gobekli Tepe during your time in Turkey? I've started a past thread on Gobekli Tepe if you have... I'd like to hear about that area due to it's ancient archeological remains.

I would love to see those ruins! Its beginnings are estimated to 11,000 BCE or earlier and considered by some to be the most important ruins in the world.

I didn't make it that far east in Turkey as my security clearance prohibited me from going to certain areas. Also my 2 tours of duty in Turkey from were from 1971 to 1974 and Gobekli Tepe excavation was not begun until 1991.

Is the thread you started on Gobekli Tepe stil active? I'll do a search and read it.

Curtis Pigman (France - Pigmon/Pimond and Greece - Pygmon)

MOESAN
25-02-13, 20:53
I wrote today to someone of our co-bloggers that this thread was of good enough 'tenue' because i had not red the last posts - but it's true, I find some post here are very OUT OF SUBJECT

Ziober
25-02-13, 22:06
Yes, I think this is a kind of published private conversation. With nothing to do with basque thread...

nordicwarrior
25-02-13, 23:17
My apologies, although I did get slightly back on track with my possible Basque autosomal results. I'll be more mindful in the future...

Question, if the Basque speakers had to be grouped with another language, would it be closer to Latin, German, or Celtic/Gaelic?
Which of these three tongues has the most in common with Basque?

Pi gman
26-02-13, 00:00
My apologies as well. At least our off topic conversion is serving as a catalyst to en-vigor the conversion about how the Basques became R1b!

As far as I know nobody really know how long the Basques have been in the area of the Pyrenees mountains of France&Spain.

There is a map that shows R1b1a in the Levant forming around 17,000 Y.B.P. Possibly they made their way around Turkey via Gobekli Tepe (13,000 YBP) and into the Greek city states of Asia Minor (Phocaia, Smyrna, and Pergamon) and into Greece. These Ionian Greeks then founded the areas of Marseilles, Perpignan, and Corsica in 600 B.C.E as trading ports as well and established their trading ports in Catalonia, Spain (575 B.C.E) near the Pyrenees mountains.

Now that we have some more meat for the subject we should all share a bottle of red wine! Cheers!

Curtis Pigman (France - Pigmon/Pimond / Greece - Pygmon)

Pi gman
26-02-13, 00:25
My apologies, although I did get slightly back on track with my possible Basque autosomal results. I'll be more mindful in the future...

Question, if the Basque speakers had to be grouped with another language, would it be closer to Latin, German, or Celtic/Gaelic?
Which of these three tongues has the most in common with Basque?

Here is an interesting answer from Yahoo Answers:

Traditionally, Basque was considered a linguistic isolate, meaning that it's not related to any other language spoken on Earth. Some linguists still regard it as a linguistic isolate.

However, there is a growing school of linguists who argue that every language is related to some other language in the world. Therefore, there are no languages which can truly be called "linguistic isolates."

In 1966, a famous Russian linguist, V. Illych-Svitych , announced the first evidence that Basque was distantly related to Chinese. He and his research team were overjoyed by the findings.

Since that time, some other linguists around the world have joined him in arguing that Basque is distantly related to Chinese and even some North American Indian language families like Uto-Aztecan and Athabaskan which includes the Navajo and Apache languages.

In the 1990's, an Italian scholar, G.M. Facchetti, found compelling evidence that Basque together with Etruscan was related to the North Caucasian group of languages spoken in the area where Russian, Turkey and Iran all come together. One linguist proposed a hypothetical language called "Proto-Daghestanian" spoken here which he says was the common ancestor of Basque, Etruscan and all the North Caucasian languages like Abkhazian, Chechen, Ingush, Circassian etc.

Cheers,
Curtis Pigman (France - Pigmon/Pimond / Greece - Pygmon)

oriental
26-02-13, 01:47
Mama, papa is understandable even if it is Cantonese for Mom and Pop. Hindi would Ma, Bap, Baba, Pitaji ('ji' respectful term) for Mom and Dad. Kaw or kao for dog and Khuta or Khoota in Hindi for dog.

Tabaccus Maximus
28-02-13, 00:54
Maciamo,

I agree that R1b is decidedly a foreign, and likely, Indo-European origin into Western Eruope. But can we be even a little sure that the Basque language isn't also foreign to Europe? Why is everyone so sure that Iberians have had such a lengthy linguistic continuity in SW Europe?
If R1b-V88 adopted various Semetic languages, possibly spreading them to parts of Africa,

Could it be that the Basque language was once a North African fringe language adopted by R1b people who eventually migrated to West Europe? Perhaps their original Y haplogroup mix was different, and only recently came to be dominated by R1b?

Kardu
28-02-13, 01:18
In the 1990's, an Italian scholar, G.M. Facchetti, found compelling evidence that Basque together with Etruscan was related to the North Caucasian group of languages spoken in the area where Russian, Turkey and Iran all come together. One linguist proposed a hypothetical language called "Proto-Daghestanian" spoken here which he says was the common ancestor of Basque, Etruscan and all the North Caucasian languages like Abkhazian, Chechen, Ingush, Circassian etc.
(France - Pigmon/Pimond / Greece - Pygmon)

It's not even proved that North-West Caucasian languages (Abkhazian, Circassian) are at all related to North-East Caucasian languages (Chechen-Ingush). Current DNA data also does not support the idea that those peoples are genetically related.
So to generalize this relationship to Basque and Etruscan is not right imho.

Ziober
28-02-13, 21:38
My hypothesis:

I think R1b were nonconformist people whose were exploring to settle where they wish, always looking for a better way of life. Spreading from their original core in SW Iberia, and probably an important part of them were seduced by basque-aquitanian country way of life,country which in the surroundings were inhabited in those times by cromagnoids whose had speaks the language known as basque, So the R1b basques became sedentary with very attachment about their land, adopting a foreign language, the cromanoid language. R1b and cromagnoids were mixed forming the modern celtiberians (all around Iberia, not only in basque country). Another R1b people continued their voyage to French Brittany, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England. Then became another expansion from the isles to Norway, and from Brittany-Aquitania to Central Europe. the R1b Central European people spreads to north Italy, the East Europe and Catalonia-Aragón-Rioja-Navarra in Iberia. The most plausible origin of R1b was in the SW of Iberia. At this point is very important to considerate the celtic "castros"(spanish word) in Cogotas I y II, and all about Vettons in general.

Anthro-inclined
28-02-13, 22:34
To Me , It Seems Absurd To Keep Lumping The Basques With The Cromagnons. Other Than U8a There Is Nothing That Sets The Basques Apart From Other Western Europeans In Terms Of Genetic Composition. The Most Prevelant Argument For The Basques Being A Relic Cro Magnon Population Is Theur Language, But This Proves Nothing, Many Neolthic And Bronze Age Cultures With Languages That Were Non Indoeuropean Dotted Europe Well Into The Iron Age, And Most Were Recent Arrivals, Or Stem From The Neolithic, And The Area Of Iberia Experienced Many Neolithic Introductions, Its Not Like Its Isolated Like Scandinavia.A Language That Corrisponds To The Time Of The Vascone Language( Precursor To Basque ) Is Etruscan Which Probably Came From Palestine Post Neolithic. So What Is So Special About The Basques That Screams Cro Magnon Descendent? Has Already Come Up I Go Through This Giant

Ziober
01-03-13, 19:57
To Me , It Seems Absurd To Keep Lumping The Basques With The Cromagnons. Other Than U8a There Is Nothing That Sets The Basques Apart From Other Western Europeans In Terms Of Genetic Composition. The Most Prevelant Argument For The Basques Being A Relic Cro Magnon Population Is Theur Language, But This Proves Nothing, Many Neolthic And Bronze Age Cultures With Languages That Were Non Indoeuropean Dotted Europe Well Into The Iron Age, And Most Were Recent Arrivals, Or Stem From The Neolithic, And The Area Of Iberia Experienced Many Neolithic Introductions, Its Not Like Its Isolated Like Scandinavia.A Language That Corrisponds To The Time Of The Vascone Language( Precursor To Basque ) Is Etruscan Which Probably Came From Palestine Post Neolithic. So What Is So Special About The Basques That Screams Cro Magnon Descendent? Has Already Come Up I Go Through This Giant

I don't know if you are talking about Pi gman's words or mine. If you had talk about mine, you are very wrong. I did never said basques are the descendants of cromagnoids. I told basques (and the most of modern Spaniards, are the result of a R1b x cromanoid
Mixture, being R1b dominant.

The basque language is that could be the cromanoid language.

Anthro-inclined
01-03-13, 20:12
I don't know if you are talking about Pi gman's words or mine. If you had talk about mine, you are very wrong. I did never said basques are the descendants of cromagnoids. I told basques (and the most of modern Spaniards, are the result of a R1b x cromanoid
Mixture, being R1b dominant.

The basque language is that could be the cromanoid language.
Wasnt Pointing The Rant At Anyone In Paticular, Just At The General Idea Of Basques Being Descendents Of Paleolithic Populations More So Than Other Europeans. Also To Reference Youre Comment On The Basque Language Being A Paleolithic European Remnant, There Is No Linguistic Evidence To Support This, As We Have No Knowledge Of Paleolithic European Languages, All The Talk Of It Could Be The Only Native European Language Is Story Telling. Genetic Evidence Says Otherwise, And The Evidence That Shows Many Neolithic Mjgrations Into Iberia, Says That The Language Is Likely Is A Migrant From North Africa Or The Middle East, And Came In The Bronze Or Neolithic Age.

Ziober
01-03-13, 21:22
The middle east component in modern spaniards is insignificant. Before the IE people came to Iberia, here were very important civilizations as "El Algar" and "Los Millares" so developed as the Middle East ones. Add to this the independent domestication of horse and we get another core of development. Favourable to spread.

The evidence about basque such a possible cromanoid language is the nonexistent links between basque and every known language.

Templar
01-03-13, 21:55
Wasnt Pointing The Rant At Anyone In Paticular, Just At The General Idea Of Basques Being Descendents Of Paleolithic Populations More So Than Other Europeans. Also To Reference Youre Comment On The Basque Language Being A Paleolithic European Remnant, There Is No Linguistic Evidence To Support This, As We Have No Knowledge Of Paleolithic European Languages, All The Talk Of It Could Be The Only Native European Language Is Story Telling. Genetic Evidence Says Otherwise, And The Evidence That Shows Many Neolithic Mjgrations Into Iberia, Says That The Language Is Likely Is A Migrant From North Africa Or The Middle East, And Came In The Bronze Or Neolithic Age.

Sorry but why are u capitalizing the beginning of every single word. It is kinda annoying when trying to read your sentences.

Anthro-inclined
01-03-13, 21:58
Sorry but why are u capitalizing the beginning of every single word. It is kinda annoying when trying to read your sentences.
Its My Phone, Automatically Caps All My Words, Been Too Lazy To Fix It.

Templar
01-03-13, 22:06
My hypothesis:

I think R1b were nonconformist people whose were exploring to settle where they wish, always looking for a better way of life. Spreading from their original core in SW Iberia, and probably an important part of them were seduced by basque-aquitanian country way of life,country which in the surroundings were inhabited in those times by cromagnoids whose had speaks the language known as basque, So the R1b basques became sedentary with very attachment about their land, adopting a foreign language, the cromanoid language. R1b and cromagnoids were mixed forming the modern celtiberians (all around Iberia, not only in basque country). Another R1b people continued their voyage to French Brittany, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England. Then became another expansion from the isles to Norway, and from Brittany-Aquitania to Central Europe. the R1b Central European people spreads to north Italy, the East Europe and Catalonia-Aragón-Rioja-Navarra in Iberia. The most plausible origin of R1b was in the SW of Iberia. At this point is very important to considerate the celtic "castros"(spanish word) in Cogotas I y II, and all about Vettons in general.

I find it funny how you think R1b originated in the Iberian peninsula just because you happen to live there. All the evidence suggests that R1b came with the Indo-Europeans. R1b diversity isn't very high in Spain, nether is R1b frequency the highest there. Haplogroup I is the best candidate of being the oldest Y haplogroup in Europe. Everyone in the forum has put enough effort and evidence into pretty much proving that completely. Read all the old threads that have to do with haplogroups and their respective ages.

Templar
01-03-13, 22:07
Its My Phone, Automatically Caps All My Words, Been Too Lazy To Fix It.

Ah, okay that makes sense.

Anthro-inclined
01-03-13, 22:11
The middle east component in modern spaniards is insignificant. Before the IE people came to Iberia, here were very important civilizations as "El Algar" and "Los Millares" so developed as the Middle East ones. Add to this the independent domestication of horse and we get another core of development. Favourable to spread.

The evidence about basque such a possible cromanoid language is the nonexistent links between basque and every known language.
How Is It Being An Isolate Evidence, Could Have Entered In The Bronze Age, Like Many Pre Indo European Iberian Languages, With All The Others DyiNg Out After The Gallo Ramon Expansion Leaving Basque As The Only Remanant Of The Arrival. As I Referenced In One Of My Previous Posts, Estruscan Has No Connection To Other Languages, But We Can Link The Arrival Of The Estruscans To A Bronze Or Iron Age Migration From Palestine.

MOESAN
01-03-13, 23:28
migration from Palestine for Etruscans? cultural influences, maybe - or a surprising but possible link to a population of the Greece-Anatolia borders, linked to the so called Phillistins -I believe they were part of the big trouble produced by the "Sea Peoples" at one time - linguistical possible links to anatolian pre-I-E languages could make sense (even if personal names could seam hellenic) -
Y-R1b west european subHGs doesn't seam born in Iberia - but Basques show definitely more links to N-W Europeans (heavy neo-celticremannts) than others Iberians, even if there is no broad genetic canyon separating Spaniards and Basques - and the relatively high level of so called 'gedrosia' component among Basques as in Neo-Celts popul

MOESAN
01-03-13, 23:30
-ations is interesting too, as said yet by Spongetaro - as a whole, Western Europe and Scandinvai show more Gedrosia than other parts of Europe, closer enevrtheless to gedrosia gravity center... I have not made ma choice yet.

zanipolo
02-03-13, 00:07
migration from Palestine for Etruscans? cultural influences, maybe - or a surprising but possible link to a population of the Greece-Anatolia borders, linked to the so called Phillistins -I believe they were part of the big trouble produced by the "Sea Peoples" at one time - linguistical possible links to anatolian pre-I-E languages could make sense (even if personal names could seam hellenic) -
Y-R1b west european subHGs doesn't seam born in Iberia - but Basques show definitely more links to N-W Europeans (heavy neo-celticremannts) than others Iberians, even if there is no broad genetic canyon separating Spaniards and Basques - and the relatively high level of so called 'gedrosia' component among Basques as in Neo-Celts popul

gedrosia is also called Balochi ( south east iranian area )

Ziober
02-03-13, 19:38
I find it funny how you think R1b originated in the Iberian peninsula just because you happen to live there. All the evidence suggests that R1b came with the Indo-Europeans. R1b diversity isn't very high in Spain, nether is R1b frequency the highest there. Haplogroup I is the best candidate of being the oldest Y haplogroup in Europe. Everyone in the forum has put enough effort and evidence into pretty much proving that completely. Read all the old threads that have to do with haplogroups and their respective ages.

What are you trying to say about I'm Spaniard? can you explain it? What kind of childish reasoning is that? Do you pretend to say that I'm not able to talk about my origins? cannot investigate my origins? need the spaniards the explanation of a foreign person because ours is not reliable? w h a t d o y o u m e a n?.

Templar
02-03-13, 19:57
What are you trying to say about I'm Spaniard? can you explain it? What kind of childish reasoning is that? Do you pretend to say that I'm not able to talk about my origins? cannot investigate my origins? need the spaniards the explanation of a foreign person because ours is not reliable? w h a t d o y o u m e a n?.

You are biased, that is what I mean. You are automatically assuming that R1b originates in Iberia just because you happen to be Spaniard. That is really egotistic. Read all the threads regarding R1b and you will see that it most likely didn't originate in Europe.

Knovas
02-03-13, 20:26
I am Iberian, and I also see that it's pretty obvious that R1b did not originate in Iberia. Ziober, you can think what you want, but you're wrong. It's nothing against you, read the threads and look for more research (the forum works for the purpose).

But I must say, I also totally disagree with the people who take modern haplogroup frequencies so dogmatically. Because basically, being for instance R1b or I dominant, doesn't mean anything (o very little) in terms of autosomal. And that's what tells the full story.

Anthro-inclined
02-03-13, 20:56
I am Iberian, and I also see that it's pretty obvious that R1b did not originate in Iberia. Ziober, you can think what you want, but you're wrong. It's nothing against you, read the threads and look for more research (the forum works for the purpose).

But I must say, I also totally disagree with the people who take modern haplogroup frequencies so dogmatically. Because basically, being for instance R1b or I dominant, doesn't mean anything (o very little) in terms of autosomal. And that's what tells the full story.
I also believe that R1b is not native to Europe, and believe it represents the expansion of indo european languages, however i don't think you are justified in saying that he is "wrong". even if your a professional anthropologist or geneticist you cant be sure to be right. New discoveries are made everyday in the field of genetic research, and considering that the field itself is in its infancy, i don't think anyone can be sure of anything at this moment.
Something i hold true to myself, is that you must always question the status quot, even if you agree with it, always keep challenging perceptions. When taking such a strong stance, like you are now, you isolate yourself from all sides except one. I guess my point is, you can believe something to be true, but always keep a lingering doubt in the back of your mind. Also never act like you know everything, as Socrates once said after the Oracle of Delphi proclaimed him the wisest man in Greece," If i am the wisest man, than it is because i alone, know i know nothing".

nordicwarrior
03-03-13, 00:15
Its My Phone, Automatically Caps All My Words, Been Too Lazy To Fix It.

Anthro I'm glad you explained that... I had you pegged as having a moderate to serious case of OCD. It's alot of work to cap each word like that! :)

P.S. Thank you for fixing... much easier to follow your line of thinking without cap distraction.

Pi gman
03-03-13, 00:48
migration from Palestine for Etruscans? cultural influences, maybe - or a surprising but possible link to a population of the Greece-Anatolia borders, linked to the so called Phillistins -I believe they were part of the big trouble produced by the "Sea Peoples" at one time - linguistical possible links to anatolian pre-I-E languages could make sense (even if personal names could seam hellenic) -
Y-R1b west european subHGs doesn't seam born in Iberia - but Basques show definitely more links to N-W Europeans (heavy neo-celticremannts) than others Iberians, even if there is no broad genetic canyon separating Spaniards and Basques - and the relatively high level of so called 'gedrosia' component among Basques as in Neo-Celts popul

Very well could be! Sorry we caused so much trouble while we were the sea peoples!

Pi gman
03-03-13, 00:53
edit to add:

Curtis Pigman (French Pigmon/Pimond and Greek Pygmon (nEIrMO)


sorry but I don't know how to type in Greek letters.

Cambrius (The Red)
03-03-13, 05:17
I am Iberian, and I also see that it's pretty obvious that R1b did not originate in Iberia. Ziober, you can think what you want, but you're wrong. It's nothing against you, read the threads and look for more research (the forum works for the purpose).

But I must say, I also totally disagree with the people who take modern haplogroup frequencies so dogmatically. Because basically, being for instance R1b or I dominant, doesn't mean anything (o very little) in terms of autosomal. And that's what tells the full story.

Quite right. Haplogroups are only useful in giving us clues about ancient population migrations, nothing more. On the other hand, autosomal DNA provides us with a full heritage picture.

MOESAN
03-03-13, 23:47
Quite right. Haplogroups are only useful in giving us clues about ancient population migrations, nothing more. On the other hand, autosomal DNA provides us with a full heritage picture.

I agree for the most - but every kind of signal or information has to be taken in account to try picturing our past

here, in disorder, some thoughts that show, I confess, more hesitations than affirmations

How Basques became Y-R1b?



Some remarks (someones made yet by bloggers):
celtic or proto-celtic languages were spoken in Iberia before Iron Ages, I think -
Y-R1b, yes, was not born in Western Europe but more surely in E-Caspian, and the R1b downstream SNPs dominent in Iberia are not for the most among the oldest ones; they seam being came there from E-France-C-Europe (maybe a S-Italy first step? – not sure ! I believe two tiny waves of Y-R1b put foot in W-Europe, one (stopped at the L23 stage) from S-E Europe, maybe by sea ways, one, L23 and downstreams, by Donau river and continental Europe (with some «branches» to N-Europe); this last part of Y-R1b only is linked to Basques and indo-Europeans, whatever the true story (initiators or accultured people)
the presence of some autosomals «gedrosian» among Basques and neo-Celts and not in other european today populations, I-Ean speaking or not, is confusing -but we note also the presence of a «atlantic» or «north-western-mediterranean» (sic!) among the same Basques and Neo-Celts, that makes the ressemblance stronger yet! I would enjoy breaking this component into a true N-Western one and S-W-«mediterranean» -
The cumulated «autochtonous mediterranean» autosomals presence among Basques and Sardinians , present too at some degree in other parts of Europe, doesn't conceal the difference between Basques and Sardinians, and the fact that the «basque-NON-sardinian» autosomal component domines too among Neo-Celts, that is not the case, one time more, among other European populations (whether balto-slavic, italic, or finnic, but it's less evident for Finns of Finnland) -
the 'gedrosian' component could be very linked to I-E languages, coming from S-E Caspian lands, and very poor of other 'west-asian' more 'caucasic' components North the Caspian and Black Seas – in Anatolia/Near-Eastern, this 'gedrosian' found surely 'caucasic' variants of 'west-asian' on its westwards progression, which don't oppose clearly there the 'gedrosian' %s to the 'caucasic' %s – these 'gedrosians' coul have indo-europeanized in E-C-Europe some populations rich for 'W-mediter-' and 'N-atlantic' (to find out among the pooling of 'northwestern' and 'basque') and speaking for a long time ago proto-basque dialects (not the modern more or less unified basque) – here again I recall the affirmation of scholars who see a kind of 'proto-basque' (and a proto-satem languages too) in the substrata of Saami's finnic -
What I write here could exclude the 'caucasic' component as important candidate for a primitive P.I-E population – it could exclude too that 'gedrosians' reached W-Europe by Mediterranea Sea... (lack of autosomals 'caucasic' and even if hazardous for obvious reasons, lack of Y-J2/Y-J1/Y-G/Y-E1b)
it 's interesting noticing that the 'mediter' component in Chuvashes is 8-9% and that 'basque' is stronger among them that 'sardinian'! Indicationg an old component among so called 'basque' that could have reached W-Europe at very ancient times, coming from East, perhaps - elements – today as a whole, geographically, 'basque' is more N-W, 'sardinian' more S, S-E and even N-E ! S-W is shared by the two of them – and 'sardinian' «flirts» more with 'caucasic' – the sardinian element in N-E Europe appears to me as the result of the neolithical colonization North & East the Carpathians where it seams send there by balkanic populations (so mixed with 'caucasic west-asians' and some few others) -


B.B.s for me are not a unique homogenous culture at final spread and result, they seam implying a very mobile and intrusive element linked to metals cultures and spreading at one time a model of pottery they perhaps never created themselves or that evolved in one of their places of colonization at some time of their historic evolution (say: SW Iberia?)?!?


I could figure out with my exhuberant imagination: 1- a primitive south-western mediterranean stock / 2 – a northern western nordic stock, remotly linked to 1- and occupying northern Europe after deglaciation / 3 – an old enough south-eastern mediterranean stock, came there in two waves: a mesolithical one, by coasts for some branches and by land for others (Danau and other rivers) plus a neolithical one, principally by mediterranean coasts and mixed then with 'west-asian' elements-


the Basques (Euskad-) and the Celts in that mess??? No answer from me for now – perhaps a first recent enough colonization of W-Europe by proto-basque speakers whose the cousins remained in central Europe were indo-europeanized??? it's true than the 'gedrosian' component is stronger among Neo-Celts than among present days Basques even if historical overlaps seam very possible... I'm yet between two thoughts about the role, the importance and datation of Y-R1b in this cartoon scenario! Sorry...
have a good night full of historical dreams giving you the keys of past!

Ziober
06-03-13, 19:56
You are biased, that is what I mean. You are automatically assuming that R1b originates in Iberia just because you happen to be Spaniard. That is really egotistic. Read all the threads regarding R1b and you will see that it most likely didn't originate in Europe.

You'd assumed that I have any interest awarding the R1b origin into Iberia... but, can you explain what could be that interest? Maybe I'm open minded and the only interest I can get is to know the true. As spaniard I'm, I can know the Iberian Archeology better than most of foreigns, this is an advantage. As envaironment scientist I have a multidisciplinary formation, They taught us to coordinate the jobs of a team of experts in different areas of study, and I see the things from several points of view. putting together the puzzle's pieces is that I'm trying.

AdeoF
06-03-13, 23:32
I think that the when the Celts came into Iberia and mixed with the Iberians (Celtiberian) the Celts had R1B. But the thing is that the Iberians had I2a. But im guessing the Celts had more R1b then the Iberians with the I2a. Im just guessing on it.

Ziober
07-03-13, 23:03
Hi adeof. I can agree with you about I2a which I was calling cromagnoids, The genuine european natives before the IE migrations, it is a branch of "I" haplogroup fully originated in Europe. But when you talk about celts and celtiberian you must to notice that these terms were for people whose had lived lots of time after we are talking, I'm talking before Bronze age. Celtiberian is a confusing term, because it is used to call at modern spaniards as an ethnic group, but still is used for the celts which came from central Europe and were mixed with iberians (Example the city of Numancia, near Soria, Castilla León. They were celtiberians). In the peninsula had living together, the celts that never gone out (in the west), and the celts from central Europe (in the north east of Iberia) whose indeed returned to home. I'm proposing That R1b(M343) had originated in the Iberian peninsula from M173.

That you say about I2a have sense, there are a noticiable link in Sardinia, as the Kurgan Stelae people use sardinia as bridge to Iberia. Maybe Stelae People brought M-173 to Iberia?


http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af129/txumi_ledauno/haplogroup_i2a1_zps628d2a56.gif

http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af129/txumi_ledauno/StelaePeople_zps24790e03.jpg

Cambrius (The Red)
08-03-13, 00:03
I think that the when the Celts came into Iberia and mixed with the Iberians (Celtiberian) the Celts had R1B. But the thing is that the Iberians had I2a. But im guessing the Celts had more R1b then the Iberians with the I2a. Im just guessing on it.

Much of Western Iberia appears to already have been (original) Celtic before the invasions from the east. See Cunliff (2005, 2010) Koch (2009, 2010, 2011), Untermann (1987) Wodtko (2010). Atlantic Celticity developed separately from the Central European varieties (La Tene, etc.) via extensive trade networks extending from Southern Portugal to the Shetland Isles.

Luan
08-05-13, 15:25
If it means anything I'm Albanian who is R-L150 and my autosomal DNA result came out 80% south east european- tuscan and 20% other parts of europe. I believe R1b came from east to west via the balkans, as you can find older clades there.

adamo
08-05-13, 22:31
The original basques/gascons where probably always R1b.

chibaric
12-08-13, 14:57
The simpliest hypothesis is that the first wave of R1B coming to Europe were not indo-european speaking people. (at least R1B-DF27 ?)

Anthropological point of vew :

1°) the original Basques had not a patriarcal system, and never adopted a pure one after the indo-european wave and the christinization. Traditionnally, the elder inherits, male or female. I insist : even if there is a younger male. If, as Maciamo proposes, the current Basques R1B was the result of a “butchering” of a previous male population by the R1B invaders, the structure will be patriarcal, patrilinear and patrilocal ! Especially if the R1B invaders had a pure patriarchal structure, which is the case of indo-european !

2°) The characteristics of the indo-european people was not only the horse and superior weapons, but also the wheel ! They had charriots. The indo-european came with their wifes and children – which does not exclude some “pure male” rapid expedition.

Genetic/phenotypic point of vew :

1°) Redness is linked exclusivily to the indo-european R1B, and not to the first wave of R1B, which was simply dark-haired. Redness is not frequent among the Basques (and certainly acquired from the celtic and germanic environnement and from the scandinavian raids)
2°) For the rest, all R1B were “rather” brachycephal – i.d. not dolicocephal at all. For the basques, wether their face is oval or not, they are not dolicocephal, and the oldest representation of celts neither.
3°) By the way, blondness did not appear within R1B nor R1A, but within the non indo-european I1, from which it spreads into R1A and R1B during the germanic ethnogenesis and into other lignages for Finnish people and Balts. And the original I1 were “extremely” dolicocephal, whereas the scandinavian result is not, because of the brachycephal admixture.

PS : Maciamo has done a good job. The Eupedia R1B maps mixing all R1B are/were misleading, and he opened the debate on the "mysterious" basques.

Mikewww
12-08-13, 18:42
The simpliest hypothesis is that the first wave of R1B coming to Europe were not indo-european speaking people. (at least R1B-DF27 ?)
This is the difficulty this hypothesis. DF27 is not one of the early branches off of R1b. DF27 is descendant of P312(S116), which is descendant of L11(S127). L11 is the very large clade that holds the mast majority of western and central European R1b. L11 is dominated, at least since historical times, by IE speaking. The Basques are kind of the odd man out in terms of their language.

The Basques do not show the highest diversity among R1b. They are dominated by DF27 people as you have noticed. We have no reason to think R1b was there in Iberia prior to the Chalcolithic and since the Celts were IE speakers you are really down to saying the Bell Beakers must have been the DF27 carriers.

DF27's brothers are U152 and L21 and its cousin is U106. They all exhibit similar diversity as members of the L11 family yet they all have fairly well defined geographical domains. I think it is possible that DF27 was the first significant R1b among pre-Basque populations as spread by Bell Beakers, but that implies that each of the Bell Beaker populations was a different kind of R1b-L11. I agree that is possible but I don't know why they would have had different languages in a closely related expansion.

I don't know the answer on the Basque R1b but its not a simple one. Maciamo has as good an alternative as any.


Anthropological point of vew :

1°) the original Basques had not a patriarcal system, and never adopted a pure one after the indo-european wave and the christinization. Traditionnally, the elder inherits, male or female. I insist : even if there is a younger male. If, as Maciamo proposes, the current Basques R1B was the result of a “butchering” of a previous male population by the R1B invaders, the structure will be patriarcal, patrilinear and patrilocal ! Especially if the R1B invaders had a pure patriarchal structure, which is the case of indo-european !

Your point on the Basques not being patriarchal would seem to lead credence to the point that the language would not be passed down from the father, thereby explaining how R1b non-IE speakers came about. I'm not making any assertions of the potential conflicts but early R1b people in these pre-Basque cultures may have been "absentee" types for reasons we don't know.



2°) The characteristics of the indo-european people was not only the horse and superior weapons, but also the wheel ! They had charriots. The indo-european came with their wifes and children – which does not exclude some “pure male” rapid expedition.
How do we know that all Indo-European men came with their wives and children. You hint towards males only expedition but we don't know the extent of this concept. David Anthony's book points out that the IE people coming down along the Black Sea to the Danube using scouting. IE people may have been adept at using scouts, explorers, traders, prospectors as well as having remote military oriented outposts.



Genetic/phenotypic point of vew :
....
It can and is quite hard to correlate phenotypes to Y DNA.

The digs of ancient bones can tell us if new people were coming in, but with out the ancient DNA testing its hard to tell who was who Y DNA wise, particularly thousands of years later.

Tone
13-08-13, 01:37
I think it is possible that DF27 was the first significant R1b among pre-Basque populations as spread by Bell Beakers, but that implies that each of the Bell Beaker populations was a different kind of R1b-L11. I agree that is possible but I don't know why they would have had different languages in a closely related expansion.

I don't know the answer on the Basque R1b but its not a simple one.

Another scenario might be that L11 (or L51) was Bell Beaker. DF27 seems a little too young, but I might be wrong.

Here's my scenario: L11 was Bell Beaker. It spread from Iberia into Central Europe and the British Isles with the Beaker Culture starting in 2900 bc. These people were not Indo-European and might have spoke a language related to Basque. About 2000 bc, DF-27 invades from Central Europe as a "reflux"of R1B back into Iberia. These were the ancestors of the Basque, Iberians, etc. They still did not speak Indo-European. A thousand years later the Celts arrive (with L21 ?). The Celts are obviously Indo-European. They were first r1b group in Iberia to speak in that language and this accounts for the seeming oddities of Basque and Iberian being r1b but non-Indo-european.

To back up my little pet theory I cite "Ancient Admixture in Human History" by Patterson et al 2012. http://www.genetics.org/content/early/2012/09/06/genetics.112.145037


Pg. 40:
"We have detected here a signal of gene flow from northern Europe into Spain around 2000 B.C. We discuss a likely interpretation. At this time there was a characteristic pottery termed ‘bell-beakers’ believed to correspond to a population spread across Iberia and northern Europe. We hypothesize that we are seeing here a genetic signal of the ‘Bell-Beaker culture’ (HARRISON, 1980). Initial cultural flow of the Bell-Beakers appears to have been from South to North, but the full story may be complex. Indeed one hypothesis is that after an initial expansion from Iberia there was a reverse flow back to Iberia (CZEBRESZUK, 2003); this ‘reflux’ model is broadly concordant with our genetic results, and if this is the correct explanation it suggests that this reverse flow may have been accompanied by substantial population movement."


The history of r1b in Iberia is obviously very complex. I think we need to think in terms of movements of r1B people both in and out of the pennisula over thousands of years.

Noman
24-08-13, 00:38
My last post on this site.


How about this R1b is a western European hg, and R1a is an eastern European haplogroup.

How about maybe because the celts lived in western europe, you're wrongly assuming a modern nation has monopoly over a y-chromosome.

How about maybe the Slavs lived in Eastern Europe, and you're wrongfully assuming the same thing.

How about the Indo-Europeans were a mixture of R1b, R1a, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, considering they were modern tribes living in the cross roads of humanity in Eurasia.

How about there were different tribes of R1b, some pre-IE, some IE.

Can you explain this to me, since R1b is 18,000 years old, and in Chad/Cameroon this goes up to 90% frequency, and those people are definitely not 90% white, are you saying R1b carriers were black 18,000 thousands years ago?

Assuming you're considering them as Europeans 6000 years ago, are you saying they went from black to white in a little over 10,000 years? Think about that.

Ill say it again, as I made this analogy before.

Haplogroups are like stds. You can spread them around, give them to the next person, make maps out of it, but it doesn't tell you anything about the genetic content of the person. It just says they have an std.

Goodbye to you, good sir, and all the people in this forum.

The funny part to me is before bronze age collapse invasions like this were virtually impossible or anyway incredibly slow, and after it we already know most of what there is to know, all of which says this is all just crap. Aside from this site I have never seen anyone let alone a group of people so sure they know so much about IE origins, and have such an out there whacko impossible theory.

So too bad to see you go, this kind of view is not the norm.

Degredado
24-08-13, 07:18
Maciamo's explanation on Basques and R1b, while it doesn't strike me as the most convincing idea I've ever heard, is probably as good as any, as others have pointed out. And that because no matter what, some sort of fluke chain of events must have necessarily happened in the Basque land, so any possible explanation is likely to raise eyebrows.

That being said... can we draw any parallel in History with a situation in which conquerors arrive and kill off the local men, rape/espouse the women, and then proceed to utterly neglect these women and their own newborn sons, to the point of leaving it completely up to the mothers to teach their language to the children? Those men wouldn't have minded not being able to communicate AT ALL with their offspring? Not even a few of those men would have attempted to teach their language to the women, so as to create, at worst, a hybrid language? We're talking Indo-European, ridigly patriarcal, bellicose men.

Is there any known historical situation similar to that one? I can't think of any.

Sure, maybe they just passed through the area, killed the men, raped then women and then abandoned the region altogether, leaving all those single mothers by themselves. But how likely is this?

Aberdeen
15-11-13, 01:57
Perhaps R1b folk migrated along the Mediterranean to the Iberian Peninsula and expanded out of there as the Beaker Bell culture, with its most easterly components coming under the influence of R1a IE folks, and adopting IE language as well as IE technology that allowed them to back migrate into territory that was already substantially R1b, spreading the IE language and culture as they went, except in some R1b areas where they were never really dominant, such as Basque country. And I believe some linguists have proposed Gaelic is a Celtic language that has a Vasconic (Basque-like) substratum, which would mean a limited number of R1b Celts taking over a Vasconic R1b Ireland. OKay, that scenario may not be very probable, but neither is any other scenario for R1b, IMO.

MOESAN
15-11-13, 15:10
Maciamo's explanation on Basques and R1b, while it doesn't strike me as the most convincing idea I've ever heard, is probably as good as any, as others have pointed out. And that because no matter what, some sort of fluke chain of events must have necessarily happened in the Basque land, so any possible explanation is likely to raise eyebrows.

That being said... can we draw any parallel in History with a situation in which conquerors arrive and kill off the local men, rape/espouse the women, and then proceed to utterly neglect these women and their own newborn sons, to the point of leaving it completely up to the mothers to teach their language to the children? Those men wouldn't have minded not being able to communicate AT ALL with their offspring? Not even a few of those men would have attempted to teach their language to the women, so as to create, at worst, a hybrid language? We're talking Indo-European, ridigly patriarcal, bellicose men.

Is there any known historical situation similar to that one? I can't think of any.

Sure, maybe they just passed through the area, killed the men, raped then women and then abandoned the region altogether, leaving all those single mothers by themselves. But how likely is this?

I give my point very lately - but I agree with your analysis here - so the Maciamo explanation does not statisfy me spite the respect I have for the most of his thoughts... Without being able to find a convincing theory at this stage, I believe yet some Y-R1b's were among non I-E tribes when other ones were among I-E ones - and I repeat for me Y-R1b took more than ONE way towards western Europe (but everybody can mistake)-

adamo
15-11-13, 18:13
The basque were not the only non-indo European language in Iberia; the Tartessians were probably Phoenicians and Turdetanians; the basque genetic composition more or less shows they were always heavily R1b; maybe the spoke a conquerer's language; maybe basque is most similar to an ampncientpelasgic or even pre-indo-European tongue; languages shifted a lot with the Latin dominations; maybe basque is a survived tongue of the pre-Latin IberiaIberia

adamo
15-11-13, 18:14
But that probably couldn't be because the basque genetic make-up IS indo-European; they may have spoke the tongue of a pre-indo european I2 (maybe I-M26) people or of a Mediterranean Sea faring people; it is a valid hypothesis tilt being of pre-indo-European origin.

Aberdeen
15-11-13, 20:24
There's an interesting discussion of this issue on the eurogenes blogspot.

EastAnglian
23-11-13, 15:17
Anyone got any Eurogenes data for Basques?

martiko
19-01-14, 03:59
The basque were not the only non-indo European language in Iberia; the Tartessians were probably Phoenicians and Turdetanians; the basque genetic composition more or less shows they were always heavily R1b; maybe the spoke a conquerer's language; maybe basque is most similar to an ampncientpelasgic or even pre-indo-European tongue; languages shifted a lot with the Latin dominations; maybe basque is a survived tongue of the pre-Latin IberiaIberia


And if Basque was a language IE.

Then there would not be problem anymore and jigsaw puzzle would be OK.
Who can maintain that Basque is not a language IE?
Basque is not a PIE language, nor a Caucasian language, fact is there the languages which resemble most in Basque languages IE are.
Since the discovery of languages iberian, and Hittites by 1917, all certainties concerning the eushkara collapses and it became more marked with archaeology, collection of archives and ancient manuscripts which show the recent presence of basques around Pyrenees. With genetics final proof, as much on masculine descendants as female, of little having migrated newly.

John123
19-01-14, 04:04
Sorry if you didn't get the memo; my account was recently blocked , for no perceivable reason, by either Maciamo or lebrok. No, basque was not a I-E tongue; I believe it pre-dates the indo-Europeans and has to do with men of the I-M26 (I2a1) lineage.

martiko
19-01-14, 13:26
Sorry if you didn't get the memo; my account was recently blocked , for no perceivable reason, by either Maciamo or lebrok. No, basque was not a I-E tongue; I believe it pre-dates the indo-Europeans and has to do with men of the I-M26 (I2a1) lineage.



they know that the presentation of I among basques is weak in the 6 % turn with for I2a about almost 3 %, I2b about 2 % and for I1 less than 2 %; when to M65 Celtic Iberian (P312 / M65 / U152-/DF27-/U106-) is to Basque of maximum 0,3 % in the closest to Spanishes and to 0 % in the shrine R1b of the basques of navarre. The geographically nearest neighbouring region of basques Asturias with 15 % of M65 is.
Conclusion: I2a spoke the iberian and not Basque and M65 Celtic Iberian spoke the Celtic and not Basque.
Alone Basque, Gascony and in former days region of the Atlantic Loire (France, ancient Novempulanie) spoke the Basque language.

martiko
19-01-14, 14:32
The main markers among basques are R1b with the most important DF27 followed by L21.
Then I for 6 % with almost equal I2a (iberian), I2b (ancient aquitain), I1 (franc).
Then J2 for 2/3 % (east Mediterranean, Tartessian, Roman...)
Then comes mysterious Q1a (Mongolian) for 1/1,5 % and R1a (indo-iranian for 1/2 %). Strangeness is that basques have the strongest rate compared with French and Spanishes and it nobody knows how to explain it as long as they assume that basques are indignes of Pyrenees.
When in G presence of which does not exceed 1 % it is present in populations not proved to be of origins Basque ancient.

The strong development of DF27 and I1 in Spain of the centre and Andalusia seems to be linked to the reconquest bringing numerous soldiers of navarre and Franc against Arabic and genetics does not deny the violence of the second stage of the reconquest but contrariwise she would seem even more violent than according to writings. They do not determine this evolution to the female descendants which seem to be indigne. They can then assume an ethnic purgation being accompanied by murder and by rape as strategy.

John123
19-01-14, 14:56
Sorry but I-M26 is the only I present in basque people and it once had a much heavier weight among them.

martiko
19-01-14, 15:39
Sorry but I-M26 is the only I present in basque people and it once had a much heavier weight among them.

go on the site of Aldata the ancient cimetirs Basque of the 8th century (the most ancient necropolis of the Basque country) and you will note that these markers I2a, I2b and G2, J2, J1 is not present there; but contrariwise you will find Q1a, R1a and also of I1 of Francs (allies of basques).
How explain you that the relics of the most ancient vascon language are north of the Gascony and the south of the Loire, there is not I2a1 there.
On the other hand I2a1 already has a language (iberian) and this PIE language completely differs from eushkara and also I add that the peaks of I2a1 are in the Sardinia and that there nobody speaks a language only is even ressemblante with eushkara from a distance or from far away.
Finally I say to you that presence of masculine I2a1 is 2/3 % among Basque and of more this marker is especially located, concentrated in region the most insulated being next to the Aragon and goes away in the Basque population of the north and from the west with 0 % scores.
And it is in these regions of the north and from the west that is most speakers of the eushkara.

martiko
18-04-14, 01:09
I don't doubt R1b travelled into Europe through the Danube, several different routes over land, through the Baltic, and hugging the Northern coast of the Mediterranean Sea by boat. Their huge numbers indicate multiple methods of arrival in wave after wave.

Here I'm referring specifically to the original Basque settlers though. Their unusual language tells me they made little contact with neighbors on the journey from the Russian steppes (if that's still where science has them pegged) to their new home in Iberia. How else could such a unique language develop?

They would have had to travel over water with little to no neighbor contact--ensuring the purity of the language-- and the Mediterranean route makes the most sense.
this is a sensible reflection and I would add that maybe the Basque as their ancestor did not want kes contacts autrecultures or civilisation.En fact it seems seon your reasoning that had the old Basque semblablr character as the Basque of today. The Basque america seem to have followed the same process.
This suggests that as the French ; deduced in an atavism where Basque seem taciturn and withdrawn and cold with no-Basque and instead very expansive between themselves.

Segia2
09-05-14, 18:30
go on the site of Alda�ta the ancient cimeti�rs Basque of the 8th century (the most ancient necropolis of the Basque country) and you will note that these markers I2a, I2b and G2, J2, J1 is not present there; but contrariwise you will find Q1a, R1a and also of I1 of Francs (allies of basques).
How explain you that the relics of the most ancient vascon language are north of the Gascony and the south of the Loire, there is not I2a1 there.
On the other hand I2a1 already has a language (iberian) and this PIE language completely differs from eushkara and also I add that the peaks of I2a1 are in the Sardinia and that there nobody speaks a language only is even ressemblante with eushkara from a distance or from far away.
Finally I say to you that presence of masculine I2a1 is 2/3 % among Basque and of more this marker is especially located, concentrated in region the most insulated being next to the Aragon and goes away in the Basque population of the north and from the west with 0 % scores.
And it is in these regions of the north and from the west that is most speakers of the eushkara.

1-Iberian language has nothing to do with PIE nor IE.
2-The closest language related to basque, despite of its fragmentary status, is iberian. This is not only a matter of modern linguistical studies, but Strabo gave us a clue (IV,1,1)


"1 (176) Next, in order,1 (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/4A*.html#note1) comes Transalpine Celtica.2 (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/4A*.html#note2) I have already3 (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/4A*.html#note3) indicated roughly both the shape and the size of this country; but now I must speak of it in detail. Some, as we know, have divided it into three parts, calling its inhabitants Aquitani, Belgae, and Celtae.4 (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/4A*.html#note4) The Aquitani, they said, are wholly different, not only in respect to their language but also in respect to their physique — more like the Iberians than the Galatae; while the rest of the inhabitants are Galatic in appearance, although not all speak the same language, but some make slight variations in their languages. "

Sile
09-05-14, 20:58
1-Iberian language has nothing to do with PIE nor IE.
2-The closest language related to basque, despite of its fragmentary status, is iberian. This is not only a matter of modern linguistical studies, but Strabo gave us a clue (IV,1,1)


"1 (176) Next, in order,1 (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/4A*.html#note1) comes Transalpine Celtica.2 (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/4A*.html#note2) I have already3 (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/4A*.html#note3) indicated roughly both the shape and the size of this country; but now I must speak of it in detail. Some, as we know, have divided it into three parts, calling its inhabitants Aquitani, Belgae, and Celtae.4 (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/4A*.html#note4) The Aquitani, they said, are wholly different, not only in respect to their language but also in respect to their physique — more like the Iberians than the Galatae; while the rest of the inhabitants are Galatic in appearance, although not all speak the same language, but some make slight variations in their languages. "


correct, but ancient iberians only covered the east side as far as modern Valencia. Central and southern Spain was not iberian in strabo times.
Iberians stretched in a mix to the rhone river in southern france. there ancient historians state iberians and ligurians clashed in warfare

martiko
15-05-14, 03:27
therefore you are able of translating me a text in iberian towards Basque? you confonez Basque which is ancient Gallic people with the iberian who is people of the family of the Sardinian and to have such lacuna is ridiculous!

vandalorum
27-09-14, 14:48
Are Mozambique people Portuguese because of portuguese speaking? Are Irish Germans because they use (german) English? Are Russians same people as Bosniaks because of "slavic" language? No.
Are Turks settler in Germany Germans? Or will be after 100-200 years because they use german language and and give birth to more children (to 8) than Germans (0-1). Are all this names at the beginning of human kind or it is changing like Russia was Soviet Union,Grand Duchy of Moscow, Golden Horde etc.?
My point of view is that R1b are true European or sons of this Aryans, R1a are "unwanted" sons of R and local Indian (or indo-iranian) people. About I - they are truly Hebrew, J people are Semites (I,J,K), R1a, some subclades are Khazars, so turkic people who takes religion. Maybe it is not political correct, but that is my researches and thinking for now.

John Doe
27-09-14, 15:07
Are Mozambique people Portuguese because of portuguese speaking? Are Irish Germans because they use (german) English? Are Russians same people as Bosniaks because of "slavic" language? No.
Are Turks settler in Germany Germans? Or will be after 100-200 years because they use german language and and give birth to more children (to 8) than Germans (0-1). Are all this names at the beginning of human kind or it is changing like Russia was Soviet Union,Grand Duchy of Moscow, Golden Horde etc.?
My point of view is that R1b are true European or sons of this Aryans, R1a are "unwanted" sons of R and local Indian (or indo-iranian) people. About I - they are truly Hebrew, J people are Semites (I,J,K), R1a, some subclades are Khazars, so turkic people who takes religion. Maybe it is not political correct, but that is my researches and thinking for now.

There's more to it than Y chromosome and MTdna, some southern whites in the US may belong to L or A, because one of their ancestors was black, does that make them west African? Y chromosome I isn't Semitic, is it? I'm pretty sure it's most common in far eastern Europe. As for K, some subclades of K are exclusive to places like England, Germany or Scandinavia. J can be divided into J 1 or 2, J1 is most common in southwestern Asia, but J2 is common in central-west Asia and Mediterranean Europe.

vandalorum
27-09-14, 16:15
There's more to it than Y chromosome and MTdna, some southern whites in the US may belong to L or A, because one of their ancestors was black, does that make them west African? Y chromosome I isn't Semitic, is it? I'm pretty sure it's most common in far eastern Europe. As for K, some subclades of K are exclusive to places like England, Germany or Scandinavia. J can be divided into J 1 or 2, J1 is most common in southwestern Asia, but J2 is common in central-west Asia and Mediterranean Europe.

I is pure Hebrew. J is Semitic (semi - half). R1b at generally is "Aryan". I do not know which subclade exactly.
I live in Poland, I look everyday at Poles, I lived in Holland, UK, Finland, so I have my own studies about their phenotype. I personaly can fit in Belenux, but in Poland I am in minority with my prevail North-Atlantid look. I see every summer the skin colour of Poles. Most of them tan differently than for example pure Dutch or Irish people.

John Doe
27-09-14, 17:03
I is pure Hebrew.
Wait... Are you talking about I or L? And are you talking about the maternal or paternal lineage?

LeBrok
27-09-14, 17:26
I is pure Hebrew. J is Semitic (semi - half). R1b at generally is "Aryan". I do not know which subclade exactly.
I live in Poland, I look everyday at Poles, I lived in Holland, UK, Finland, so I have my own studies about their phenotype. I personaly can fit in Belenux, but in Poland I am in minority with my prevail North-Atlantid look. I see every summer the skin colour of Poles. Most of them tan differently than for example pure Dutch or Irish people.
R1a, R1b and J2 are about 20 thousand years old. No recent language, religion or culture can go back that far and claim continuity.


R1b at generally is "Aryan" Aryans were Indo-Iranians and ended up in Middle East. What they have in common with R1b in Western Europe? Neither Europe speak Iranian dialect, nor we have historical records about Indo-Iranians in Europe.

Recently there was a discovery of R1a in Yamna culture, around 5,000 years ago. But still it doesn't tell us if Yamna was a homeland of Indo-European. Poor chaps didn't left anything written for us. It will take mirriad of archeological and genetic clues to make this connection, and we will never know for sure. To link R1a or b with any known culture reaching 20 k years will be impossible.

Aberdeen
27-09-14, 17:44
R1b is a very old and widespread haplotype, but so far it doesn't seem to have been found in the presumed IE homeland. In western Europe, it seems to cluster near the Mediterranean and Atlantic coasts, so I think some subclades may have arrived in western Europe through a different route than the Anatolia to Balkan to eastern European route that some subclades of R1b probably followed.

vandalorum
27-09-14, 17:50
R1 (or R1b) came to India and return home to Europe. Not all were traveling. R1a is a result of this journey to east as R1b can be, but R1b is more this "Aryan" than R1a people. For example "sanskrit" was written by local people (r1a) in their language - indo-iranian with trace in "slavic" language, which still exist, the first R1b can be Basque language, which is almost extinct (exist only in Basque community).

vandalorum
27-09-14, 17:51
Wait... Are you talking about I or L? And are you talking about the maternal or paternal lineage?
I mean Y-DNA

John Doe
27-09-14, 17:52
I mean Y-DNA.

Paternal haplogroup L originated 25,000-30,000 years BP (before present) in western-central Asia, it's most frequent places:
Burusho (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burusho_people), Kalash (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalash_people), Pashtuns (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtun_people), Kallars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kallar(caste)),Afshar village (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afshar_tribe), Al-Raqqah (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Raqqah), eastBalochistan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balochistan_(Pakistan)), northern Afghanistan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan),Chechens (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechen_people), South Tyrol (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Tyrol), Indians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India)
Conclusion: It's not exclusive to "Hebrews" (what do you mean by that? Ashkenazi Jews?).

Aberdeen
27-09-14, 17:53
R1 (or R1b) came to India and return home to Europe. Not all were traveling. R1a is a result of this journey to east as R1b can be, but R1b is more this "Aryan" than R1a people. For example "sanskrit" was written by local people (r1a) in their language - indo-iranian with trace in "slavic" language, which still exist, the first R1b can be Basque language, which is almost extinct (exist only in Basque community).

I don't think "Aryan" means what you think it means. The Aryans were the Iranian speaking invaders of India 3500 years ago, and they were probably mostly R1a.

vandalorum
27-09-14, 18:03
R1 (or R1b) came to India and return home to Europe. Not all were traveling. R1a is a result of this journey to east as R1b can be, but R1b is more this "Aryan" than R1a people. For example "sanskrit" was written by local people (r1a) in their language - indo-iranian with trace in "slavic" language, which still exist, the first R1b can be Basque language, which is almost extinct (exist only in Basque community).
"Unwanted" sons = R1a of R1 fathers were able to speak only local - "mother" tongue. Childrens always learn mother language. And when there is no "father", they constantly speak indo-iranian. Of course not all r1a are "sanskrit" speaking, for example Pasthuns. But they met other ethnicity and religion.

vandalorum
27-09-14, 18:08
Paternal haplogroup L originated 25,000-30,000 years BP (before present) in western-central Asia, it's most frequent places:
Burusho (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burusho_people), Kalash (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalash_people), Pashtuns (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtun_people), Kallars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kallar(caste)),Afshar village (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afshar_tribe), Al-Raqqah (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Raqqah), eastBalochistan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balochistan_(Pakistan)), northern Afghanistan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan),Chechens (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechen_people), South Tyrol (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Tyrol), Indians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India)
Conclusion: It's not exclusive to "Hebrews" (what do you mean by that? Ashkenazi Jews?).

I mean I (i) Y-DNA

John Doe
27-09-14, 18:14
I mean I (i) Y-DNA
Haplogroup I:
Time of origin: 25,000-30,000 years BP
Possible place of origin: Europe
Frequency: represents nearly one-fifth of the population of Europe. It can be found in the majority of present-day European populations with peaks in Northern and South-Eastern Europe. Haplogroup I-M170 Y-chromosomes have also been found among some populations of the Near East (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_East), the Caucasus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus), Northeast Africa and Central Siberia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Siberia).

Exclusive to the "Hebrews" how?

vandalorum
27-09-14, 18:38
Haplogroup I:
Time of origin: 25,000-30,000 years BP
Possible place of origin: Europe
Frequency: represents nearly one-fifth of the population of Europe. It can be found in the majority of present-day European populations with peaks in Northern and South-Eastern Europe. Haplogroup I-M170 Y-chromosomes have also been found among some populations of the Near East (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_East), the Caucasus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus), Northeast Africa and Central Siberia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Siberia).

Exclusive to the "Hebrews" how?

1. Possible place - yes, possible but notproven.
2. Because when they started http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus they go to many territories

vandalorum
27-09-14, 18:50
1. Possible place - yes, possible but notproven.
2. Because when they started http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus they go to many territories

And how sounds names in Sweden? something like Johans son, Issak son, we have land of Dan - Danmark... it is a big hidden story

John Doe
27-09-14, 18:58
1. Possible place - yes, possible but notproven.
2. Because when they started http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus they go to many territories
The Exodus hasn't been proven either. :-\

John Doe
27-09-14, 19:10
And how sounds names in Sweden? something like Johans son, Issak son, we have land of Dan - Danmark... it is a big hidden story
The etymology of Denmark according to Wikipedia:
"The etymology of the word Denmark, and especially the relationship between Danes and Denmark and the unifying of Denmark as a single kingdom, is a subject which attracts debate.[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark#cite_note-32)[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark#cite_note-33) This is centred primarily on the prefix "Dan" and whether it refers to the Dani (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danes_(Germanic_tribe)) or a historical person Dan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_(king)) and the exact meaning of the -"mark" ending. The issue is further complicated by a number of references to various Dani people in Scandinavia or other places in Europe in Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece) and Roman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome) accounts (like Ptolemy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy), Jordanes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordanes), and Gregory of Tours (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_of_Tours)), as well as mediaeval literature (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediaeval_literature) (like Adam of Bremen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_of_Bremen), Beowulf (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf), Widsith (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widsith), and Poetic Edda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda)).Most handbooks derive the first part of the word, and the name of the people, from a word meaning "flat land",[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark#cite_note-et1-34) related to German Tenne "threshing floor", English den "cave", Sanskrit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit) dhánuṣ- (धनुस्; "desert").[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark#cite_note-et1-34) The -mark is believed to mean woodland or borderland (see marches (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_(territory))), with probable references to the border forests in south Schleswig (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Schleswig).[24] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark#cite_note-35)
The first recorded use of the word Danmark within Denmark itself is found on the two Jelling stones (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jelling_stones), which are runestones (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runestone) believed to have been erected by Gorm the Old (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorm_the_Old) (c. 955) and Harald Bluetooth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harald_Bluetooth) (c. 965). The larger stone of the two is popularly cited as Denmark's baptismal certificate (dåbsattest),[25] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark#cite_note-36) though both use the word "Denmark", in the form of accusative (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accusative_case) ᛏᛅᚾᛘᛅᚢᚱᚴ "tanmaurk" ([danmɒrk]) on the large stone, and genitive (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genitive_case)ᛏᛅᚾᛘᛅᚱᚴᛅᚱ "tanmarkar" (pronounced [danmarkaɽ]) on the small stone.[26] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark#cite_note-37) The inhabitants of Denmark are there called "tani" ([danɪ]), or "Danes", in the accusative."

One can't date this word beyond the 9th-10th century C.E, and obviously not all the way to the 13th century B.C.E.

vandalorum
27-09-14, 19:21
And accidentally I1 is about 5000 years old http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M253#Origins
and compare it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar

vandalorum
27-09-14, 19:24
The etymology of Denmark according to Wikipedia:
"The etymology of the word Denmark, and especially the relationship between Danes and Denmark and the unifying of Denmark as a single kingdom, is a subject which attracts debate.[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark#cite_note-32)[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark#cite_note-33) This is centred primarily on the prefix "Dan" and whether it refers to the Dani (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danes_(Germanic_tribe)) or a historical person Dan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_(king)) and the exact meaning of the -"mark" ending. The issue is further complicated by a number of references to various Dani people in Scandinavia or other places in Europe in Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece) and Roman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome) accounts (like Ptolemy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy), Jordanes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordanes), and Gregory of Tours (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_of_Tours)), as well as mediaeval literature (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediaeval_literature) (like Adam of Bremen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_of_Bremen), Beowulf (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beowulf), Widsith (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widsith), and Poetic Edda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetic_Edda)).Most handbooks derive the first part of the word, and the name of the people, from a word meaning "flat land",[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark#cite_note-et1-34) related to German Tenne "threshing floor", English den "cave", Sanskrit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit) dhánuṣ- (धनुस्; "desert").[23] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark#cite_note-et1-34) The -mark is believed to mean woodland or borderland (see marches (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_(territory))), with probable references to the border forests in south Schleswig (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Schleswig).[24] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark#cite_note-35)
The first recorded use of the word Danmark within Denmark itself is found on the two Jelling stones (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jelling_stones), which are runestones (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runestone) believed to have been erected by Gorm the Old (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorm_the_Old) (c. 955) and Harald Bluetooth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harald_Bluetooth) (c. 965). The larger stone of the two is popularly cited as Denmark's baptismal certificate (dåbsattest),[25] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark#cite_note-36) though both use the word "Denmark", in the form of accusative (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accusative_case) ᛏᛅᚾᛘᛅᚢᚱᚴ "tanmaurk" ([danmɒrk]) on the large stone, and genitive (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genitive_case)ᛏᛅᚾᛘᛅᚱᚴᛅᚱ "tanmarkar" (pronounced [danmarkaɽ]) on the small stone.[26] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark#cite_note-37) The inhabitants of Denmark are there called "tani" ([danɪ]), or "Danes", in the accusative."

One can't date this word beyond the 9th-10th century C.E, and obviously not all the way to the 13th century B.C.E.

Now everyone is mixed. And one word could have different meanings.

John Doe
27-09-14, 19:30
And accidentally I1 is about 5000 years old http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M253#Origins
and compare it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar
I1 according to Eupedia:

Haplogroup I1 is the most common I subclade in northern Europe. It is found mostly in Scandinavia and Finland, where it typically represent over 35% of the male Y-chromosomes. Associated with the Norse ethnicity, I1 is found in all places invaded by ancient Germanic tribes and the Vikings. Other parts of Europe speaking Germanic languages come next in frequency. Germany, Austria, the Low Countries, England and the Scottish Lowlands all have between 10% and 20% of I1 lineages.

Again, seems unlikely to be connected to an ancient near eastern population. :-/

John Doe
27-09-14, 19:30
Now everyone is mixed. And one word could have different meanings.
You got a point there, but the world wasn't that mixed 1,200 years ago, or indeed, 5,000 years ago.

vandalorum
27-09-14, 22:48
I1 according to Eupedia:

Haplogroup I1 is the most common I subclade in northern Europe. It is found mostly in Scandinavia and Finland, where it typically represent over 35% of the male Y-chromosomes. Associated with the Norse ethnicity, I1 is found in all places invaded by ancient Germanic tribes and the Vikings. Other parts of Europe speaking Germanic languages come next in frequency. Germany, Austria, the Low Countries, England and the Scottish Lowlands all have between 10% and 20% of I1 lineages.

Again, seems unlikely to be connected to an ancient near eastern population. :-/

I1 never was near eastern population, but J are/were. J is Semitic = half Hebrew and fully Jews. Because Jews/Semites are one, Hebrews are second (or first) and Khazars (some R1a) are third.
German language (and ethnicity) is a mix of I1 (+I2a), R1b and R1a people.
Old Norman (not todays Scandinavian) language has many similarities with "slavic" language. Places (towns) like Złotów, Złotniki etc. which have złoto - gold in name have nothing to do with gold but with Old Norman and todays Scandinavian word "slott" - castle. I have many more examples for this.
The real Slavs are mix od I2a and R1a (Scythian Z-280 and Sarmatian M-458) people.
Germans (and Scandinavians) are more R1b, I1 and R1a (Z-284) mix.
And english (german) language is in use in Great Britain and Ireland as portuguese language is in use in Mozambique. But people in British Isles have to much R1b to be called "germanic".

vandalorum
27-09-14, 22:59
I1 never was near eastern population, but J are/were. J is Semitic = half Hebrew and fully Jews. Because Jews/Semites are one, Hebrews are second (or first) and Khazars (some R1a) are third.
German language (and ethnicity) is a mix of I1 (+I2a), R1b and R1a people.
Old Norman (not todays Scandinavian) language has many similarities with "slavic" language. Places (towns) like Złotów, Złotniki etc. which have złoto - gold in name have nothing to do with gold but with Old Norman and todays Scandinavian word "slott" - castle. I have many more examples for this.
The real Slavs are mix od I2a and R1a (Scythian Z-280 and Sarmatian M-458) people.
Germans (and Scandinavians) are more R1b, I1 and R1a (Z-284) mix.
And english (german) language is in use in Great Britain and Ireland as portuguese language is in use in Mozambique. But people in British Isles have to much R1b to be called "germanic".

I Y-DNA people were enslaved by Egypt, then they escaped to Europe as 10 Lost Tribes of Hebrew, because Judah and Beniamin are Semites other are true Hebrews.

These are just my hypothesis of course

vandalorum
27-09-14, 23:10
I1 never was near eastern population, but J are/were. J is Semitic = half Hebrew and fully Jews. Because Jews/Semites are one, Hebrews are second (or first) and Khazars (some R1a) are third.
German language (and ethnicity) is a mix of I1 (+I2a), R1b and R1a people.
Old Norman (not todays Scandinavian) language has many similarities with "slavic" language. Places (towns) like Złotów, Złotniki etc. which have złoto - gold in name have nothing to do with gold but with Old Norman and todays Scandinavian word "slott" - castle. I have many more examples for this.
The real Slavs are mix od I2a and R1a (Scythian Z-280 and Sarmatian M-458) people.
Germans (and Scandinavians) are more R1b, I1 and R1a (Z-284) mix.
And english (german) language is in use in Great Britain and Ireland as portuguese language is in use in Mozambique. But people in British Isles have to much R1b to be called "germanic".

"never" is bad word, sorry, but i never learned english at school, I meant that all I (Y-dna) population was enslaved and all escaped to Europe. And J Y-DNA --> sons of I haplogroup stayed in near east and began argue.

LeBrok
28-09-14, 00:54
I meant that all I (Y-dna) population was enslaved and all escaped to Europe. And J Y-DNA --> sons of I haplogroup stayed in near east and began argue.
In parallel universe. ;)

Hg I is about 20-30 thousand years old. Exodus if happened, happened 4-5 thousand years ago. Where was hg I hiding for first 20 thousand years?

Sile
28-09-14, 01:59
"never" is bad word, sorry, but i never learned english at school, I meant that all I (Y-dna) population was enslaved and all escaped to Europe. And J Y-DNA --> sons of I haplogroup stayed in near east and began argue.

K1, K2a and k2b evolved 30000 plus years before R even formed.............and I haplogroup was another 6000 years older than that

Considering R had to wait for its parent P to form first ...........

you need to come to terms with what was recently accepted worldwide
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragroup
see link for the new June 2014 groupings

vandalorum
28-09-14, 10:11
In parallel universe. ;)

Hg I is about 20-30 thousand years old. Exodus if happened, happened 4-5 thousand years ago. Where was hg I hiding for first 20 thousand years?
I am not genetic scientist, but all this terms is still changing. And if I is 20-30 years old that I1 in Wikipedia is 5000 years old whereas on Eupedia older. This reminds me soviet time - when fact not pass for theory that is worst for facts. And they changed fact to their theory. I am not against Eupedia, but I do not now who to belive in this I1 case.
Maybe I was born in Europe but I1 started just 5000-6000 years ago and were enslaved? It is just my hypothesis.

vandalorum
28-09-14, 10:14
But as I wrote before. Basques could be the oryginal R1b with original R1b language. Back to the topic.

Ike
28-09-14, 14:40
In parallel universe. ;)

Hg I is about 20-30 thousand years old. Exodus if happened, happened 4-5 thousand years ago. Where was hg I hiding for first 20 thousand years?

Is that proven? Do we have DNA samples of that age? Or is it just mathematical estimate?

LeBrok
28-09-14, 17:27
Is that proven? Do we have DNA samples of that age? Or is it just mathematical estimate? IIRC the oldest hg I was found in Europe and it is from Neolithic times, 8kya, and it was already diversified into I2a subclade. It means that original hg I needs to be much older than that.
The total age of hg I is estimated mathematically based on frequency and number of mutations. So far it looks very plausible.

John Doe
29-09-14, 10:14
I1 never was near eastern population, but J are/were. J is Semitic = half Hebrew and fully Jews. Because Jews/Semites are one, Hebrews are second (or first) and Khazars (some R1a) are third.

I didn't understand your point. But Semitic languages are languages there isn't really a Semitic ethnicity. J1 isn't exclusive to Jews, neither is J2. Hebrew is a language, a Semitic language, there's no modern Hebrew ethnicity.

John Doe
29-09-14, 10:17
I Y-DNA people were enslaved by Egypt, then they escaped to Europe as 10 Lost Tribes of Hebrew, because Judah and Beniamin are Semites other are true Hebrews.

These are just my hypothesis of course
The story goes that the 10 tribes were exiled by the Assyrians, long after the Exodus supposedly took place.

Aberdeen
29-09-14, 15:26
But as I wrote before. Basques could be the oryginal R1b with original R1b language. Back to the topic.

And, as I wrote before, R1b is a very old and widespread haplotype that can't be associated with just one language. Perhaps Basque is the language of the Bell Beaker folk. But if R1b is IE, as many people on this forum think, the Basque language is a mystery.

vandalorum
29-09-14, 16:30
And, as I wrote before, R1b is a very old and widespread haplotype that can't be associated with just one language. Perhaps Basque is the language of the Bell Beaker folk. But if R1b is IE, as many people on this forum think, the Basque language is a mystery.

In my opinion R1a is IE, R1b learned grammar, rules etc of IE language as Mozambique people were able to learn IE portuguese language. So Basque language should be closer to oryginal R1b people. IE languages are from east, they are R1a "unwanted" sons of "Aryans" (but mothers from indo-iranian territory). Sanskrit is written in local language, not in "aryan" language. And before all of this german, english was celtic, before was (in my opinion) Basque language.
Some think that Basque language have similarity to slovenian/czech: http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik01/pdf/jandacek_linguistic.pdf
but slavic languages are mix of indo-iranian (R1a) and I1 +I2a1b people, so the similarities can be because of older european populations here = when local R1b met I people. R1a changed our languages like french language changed Djibouti people their language.
And ones again, IE language (R1a) people is not "aryan" is a local people language which invaded and conquered R1b and I people (they came here from Egypt via near east). R1a can came here as todays seasonal worker also came. After 200 years it is possible that there will not be any Klagenfurt but polish Celowiec - if only polish people start to settle there. And belive me, even if they will be in minority they can put their rules, names etc. Bad/poor always win better/richer. This is why West gives way Russia. Poor have less to loss.

LeBrok
29-09-14, 17:05
In my opinion R1a is IE, R1b learned grammar, rules etc of IE language as Mozambique people were able to learn IE portuguese language. So Basque language should be closer to oryginal R1b people. IE languages are from east, they are R1a "unwanted" sons of "Aryans" (but mothers from indo-iranian territory). Sanskrit is written in local language, not in "aryan" language. And before all of this german, english was celtic, before was (in my opinion) Basque language.
Some think that Basque language have similarity to slovenian/czech: http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik01/pdf/jandacek_linguistic.pdf
but slavic languages are mix of indo-iranian (R1a) and I1 +I2a1b people, so the similarities can be because of older european populations here = when local R1b met I people. R1a changed our languages like french language changed Djibouti people their language.
And ones again, IE language (R1a) people is not "aryan" is a local people language which invaded and conquered R1b and I people (they came here from Egypt via near east). R1a can came here as todays seasonal worker also came. After 200 years it is possible that there will not be any Klagenfurt but polish Celowiec - if only polish people start to settle there. And belive me, even if they will be in minority they can put their rules, names etc. Bad/poor always win better/richer. This is why West gives way Russia. Poor have less to loss.
Do you listen to what we say?! You are totally failing to react , in form of normal conversation, to anything we written so far. In all your posts you only recycled your weird beliefs.

vandalorum
29-09-14, 23:17
Do you listen to what we say?! You are totally failing to react , in form of normal conversation, to anything we written so far. In all your posts you only recycled your weird beliefs.

You say one, I say second, someone can say third hypothesis. Why I should belive just one group of person. I wrote that this are only my wishful thinking. I want to know truth and give You more possible solution. Please be open. Every one knows that for example history is written by winners, but is this true for invaded people or only for invaders/winners?

LeBrok
30-09-14, 01:53
You say one, I say second, someone can say third hypothesis. Why I should belive just one group of person. I wrote that this are only my wishful thinking.
We know it is just your wishful thinking. What baffles us is that you ignore posts of people who know much more than you on these subjects.

I want to know truth and give You more possible solution. I'm sorry but if you don't know the truth, or at least science behind it, you can't give good solutions.


Please be open.You are not even willing to discuss on consider what science says about genetics of our ancestors. Who is not open?
Go through this website and you will find posted scientific papers our knowledge is based on. Be open and read what experts say.



Every one knows that for example history is written by winners, We are not talking much history here on this thread, mostly genetics. And if we have few hypotheses about past of our ancestors, it has to be in line with scientific discoveries. Please read up the wealth of knowledge contained on Eupedia before creating outlandish hypotheses. It is here at a tip of your finger.
http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/

Sile
30-09-14, 07:56
Bell Beakers is about pots and not about language........if you want to talk about basque language, then see if Vasconic script is basque, but leave BB out of language discussions.

Aberdeen
30-09-14, 16:01
Bell Beakers is about pots and not about language........if you want to talk about basque language, then see if Vasconic script is basque, but leave BB out of language discussions.

No, I won't do that. Bell Beaker folk had much more than just pots to make them distinctive. There's every reason to believe, based on archeology, that they represented a new population movement, possibly the one that brought Vasconic language to western Europe. Since nobody knows what language Bell Beaker folk spoke, I feel free to speculate. Present me with DNA evidence that the distinctive Bell Beaker population didn't represent a population turnover and I will change my mind.

Sile
30-09-14, 19:56
No, I won't do that. Bell Beaker folk had much more than just pots to make them distinctive. There's every reason to believe, based on archeology, that they represented a new population movement, possibly the one that brought Vasconic language to western Europe. Since nobody knows what language Bell Beaker folk spoke, I feel free to speculate. Present me with DNA evidence that the distinctive Bell Beaker population didn't represent a population turnover and I will change my mind.

Your wasting your intellectual time in chasing that the BB where one race............as for basques they have been stabilized where they reside since the neolithic times.

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/basque-and-other-european-origins.html

archeologists have found BB pots from morocco to poland , the only logical explanation is that BB is only about pots and the ability to learn this type of pot as one neighbour learnt from another neighbour

Ike
30-09-14, 20:04
IIRC the oldest hg I was found in Europe and it is from Neolithic times, 8kya, and it was already diversified into I2a subclade. It means that original hg I needs to be much older than that.
The total age of hg I is estimated mathematically based on frequency and number of mutations. So far it looks very plausible.

Agree, but I'd be much happier with archaeological DNA proofs. When we have a rubber-band-like timeline of "very plausible" events it's valuable to pin down some of them with "certainty pins".

LeBrok
30-09-14, 21:25
Agree, but I'd be much happier with archaeological DNA proofs. When we have a rubber-band-like timeline of "very plausible" events it's valuable to pin down some of them with "certainty pins".Sure, in 10-20 years dust should settle. The good news is that so far whatever we find fits mathematical predictions of mutations, and with every year scientists are getting better in it.

Aberdeen
30-09-14, 22:29
Your wasting your intellectual time in chasing that the BB where one race............as for basques they have been stabilized where they reside since the neolithic times.

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/basque-and-other-european-origins.html

archeologists have found BB pots from morocco to poland , the only logical explanation is that BB is only about pots and the ability to learn this type of pot as one neighbour learnt from another neighbour

Maybe it would help if you actually learned something about the BB cultural package (which was much more than just pots) and the archeological and mtDNA evidence for BB people as an intrusive population that arrived in Europe during the late Neolithic. And that nonsense about "people are not pots" has been proven wrong time and time again, as new DNA evidence shows that yet another major cultural shift was also a population turnover. And I'm sure we'll have that evidence for BB eventually - the only two Y DNA examples we have for BB are also the two earliest examples of R1b in Europe.

Sile
30-09-14, 22:35
Maybe it would help if you actually learned something about the BB cultural package (which was much more than just pots) and the archeological and mtDNA evidence for BB people as an intrusive population that arrived in Europe during the late Neolithic. And that nonsense about "people are not pots" has been proven wrong time and time again, as new DNA evidence shows that yet another major cultural shift was also a population turnover. And I'm sure we'll have that evidence for BB eventually - the only two Y DNA examples we have for BB are also the two earliest examples of R1b in Europe.

Are you telling me that the ancients had the ability to decide which haplogroups made which type of pots?
Are you trying to tell me, that the ancient haplogroups migrated as per 1 haplogroup at a time....and that different waves of individual haplogroups went their own ways...............tell me, how did the ancients determine which person had which haplogroup?

the only source we have is the emergence of haplogroups in certain area of the world , within a small time frame of each other , migrating together

Aberdeen
01-10-14, 01:39
Are you telling me that the ancients had the ability to decide which haplogroups made which type of pots?
Are you trying to tell me, that the ancient haplogroups migrated as per 1 haplogroup at a time....and that different waves of individual haplogroups went their own ways...............tell me, how did the ancients determine which person had which haplogroup?

the only source we have is the emergence of haplogroups in certain area of the world , within a small time frame of each other , migrating together

I can't tell whether you're genuinely stupid or willfully stupid. Either way, you're going into the "ignore" pile. Bye.

Sile
01-10-14, 03:07
I can't tell whether you're genuinely stupid or willfully stupid. Either way, you're going into the "ignore" pile. Bye.

lol

here you go , for your "summary"
More recently, data and calculations from Myres et al. (2011),[79] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture#cite_note-79) Cruciani et al. (2011)[80] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture#cite_note-Cruciani2011-80) Arredi et al. (2007),[81] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture#cite_note-81) and Balaresque et al. (2010)[82] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture#cite_note-Balaresque2010-82) suggest a Late Neolithic entry of M269 into Europe.

These hypotheses appear to be corroborated by more direct evidence from ancient DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_DNA). For example, Early Neolithic Y-DNA from Spain did not reveal any R1b, but rather E-V13 and G2a,[82] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture#cite_note-Balaresque2010-82) whilst a similar study from a French pre-Beaker Neolithic site revealed haplgroup G2a and I-P37.[83] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture#cite_note-83) It is only later, from a German Bell Beaker site dated to the third millennium BCE, that the first evidence for R1b is detected. Ancient Y-DNA results for the remains of Beaker people from Iberia have yet to be obtained.


Whilst such studies are insightful, even if the dates postulated by authors are correct, they do not necessarily imply that the spread of a particular genetic marker represents a distinct population, 'tribe' or language group. As such, 'genetic studies' have often drawn criticisms not only from archaeologists and cultural anthropologists, but also from fellow population geneticists.[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture#cite_note-Brotherton2013-32)

some need to keep their personnel dream..........but when all these speculations are done and dusted, one thing remains.......BB is about pots and the link between people and these types of pots. To link a type of pot to a haplogroup or language is wrong

Greying Wanderer
23-10-14, 18:03
Your wasting your intellectual time in chasing that the BB where one race............as for basques they have been stabilized where they reside since the neolithic times.

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/basque-and-other-european-origins.html

archeologists have found BB pots from morocco to poland , the only logical explanation is that BB is only about pots and the ability to learn this type of pot as one neighbour learnt from another neighbour


It might be the correct explanation but i don't think it's the *only* logical explanation.

IIRC Vinca were the first coppersmiths and Vinca disappeared but maybe some of them escaped whatever led to their disappearance and spread around Europe as a caste of coppersmiths and artisans like the African blacksmith castes.

MOESAN
24-10-14, 23:57
lol

here you go , for your "summary"
More recently, data and calculations from Myres et al. (2011),[79] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture#cite_note-79) Cruciani et al. (2011)[80] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture#cite_note-Cruciani2011-80) Arredi et al. (2007),[81] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture#cite_note-81) and Balaresque et al. (2010)[82] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture#cite_note-Balaresque2010-82) suggest a Late Neolithic entry of M269 into Europe.

These hypotheses appear to be corroborated by more direct evidence from ancient DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_DNA). For example, Early Neolithic Y-DNA from Spain did not reveal any R1b, but rather E-V13 and G2a,[82] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture#cite_note-Balaresque2010-82) whilst a similar study from a French pre-Beaker Neolithic site revealed haplgroup G2a and I-P37.[83] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture#cite_note-83) It is only later, from a German Bell Beaker site dated to the third millennium BCE, that the first evidence for R1b is detected. Ancient Y-DNA results for the remains of Beaker people from Iberia have yet to be obtained.


Whilst such studies are insightful, even if the dates postulated by authors are correct, they do not necessarily imply that the spread of a particular genetic marker represents a distinct population, 'tribe' or language group. As such, 'genetic studies' have often drawn criticisms not only from archaeologists and cultural anthropologists, but also from fellow population geneticists.[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture#cite_note-Brotherton2013-32)

some need to keep their personnel dream..........but when all these speculations are done and dusted, one thing remains.......BB is about pots and the link between people and these types of pots. To link a type of pot to a haplogroup or language is wrong



lack of ancient DNA, fellows:
we have more mt-DNA than Y-DNA for ancient times - + 2 x Y-R1B or 0 x Y-R1b (or any sort of Y-DNA) don't mean too much things compared to the span of time and the territories to cover -
and BB did not cover all Western Europe and the subsequent cultures labelled BBs were perhaps only influenced and boosted by genuine BBs - surely BBs had DNA and types but were they numerous enough to change the genetic landscape of Western Europe?
the mt-DNA (kind of H) change in Germany put on their account were they entirely caused by them or by slightly older and younger moves (Atlantic Megalithers with a cultural and maybe partly demic push towards East?)
the Trichterbecher (Funnel) people shew in some analysis an intermediary position between "sardinian" and "basque" what points towards Atlantic (I know: it could be their Hunt-Gath'rs part which could give this result, things are not simple) -
concerning Y-R1b, WE DON'T KNOW FOR NOW WHERE THEY PASSED THROUGH INTO EUROPE!?! they came from East, but "East" is vague - there has been more than a "va-et-vient" W>>E + E>>W in Northern Europe between middle Neolithic and Bronze so... today, the last surveys concerning ancient DNA did not show any Y-R1b yet except the 2 in Germany...
I think the most of Y-R1b bearers came from the Steppes and not from Anatolia, what doesn't disprove the passage of someones through South - and I think we can imagine than a first wave of Y-R1b could have spoken a not-I-E language (here I think in Basque)?
I'm still a bit confused about this exciting (and boring) problem of basque language and Y-R1b; all the way, the Basques if not identical keep showing some affinities with occidental Celts and the BB problem doesn't seem providing clues for now -

holderlin
01-12-14, 06:50
I seriously thought I was one of the few people weird and crazy enough to care about this worthless shit. I'm amazed and overjoyed.

berun
24-11-15, 20:58
As I have explained in my R1b history, between 2500 and 1800 BCE Western Europe was invaded by Bronze-age Indo-European speakers carrying mostly the R1b paternal lineage.

It's a very possible scenario, but it's necessary to take into account also that there was a R1b1 man inhumated inside an early cardial cave in the high Pyrenees (Els Trocs), accoring to "Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe"... it's necessary so to think about other possibilities, as that Neolithic G's were agriculture practicers and R1b were herders, being the first group always more abundant; other possibility would be that G's had their own inhumation rites and by that the archaelogists are getting more G's...

The issue is yet open.

Athiudisc
25-11-15, 03:18
...it's necessary to take into account also that there was a R1b1 man inhumated inside an early cardial cave in the high Pyrenees (Els Trocs)...

Not M269, though (the kind of R1b that dominates Europe). We have that centuries prior to El Trocs, out in what's now Russia.

firetown
29-11-16, 07:47
Have you guys looked at the DNA results from ancient Basque burial grounds?

firetown
29-11-16, 07:57
Why are my posts still subject to moderation?

A Ulubatlı Hasan
29-01-17, 18:05
all your writings dont explain why were basques speaking object-verb language and they have r1b . some writers say basques are asimilated celts or indo european people . at the time there isnt any power public who have assimilted indo-europeans in spain or south france . basques reality shows that oldest r1b forms werent speaking indo-european languages

ngc598
01-02-17, 19:55
all your writings dont explain why owere basques speaking ...
Sums it up pretty well, such explanations can not satisfy. Conquerors humping a hundred local women each, and then don't care about their offsprings is just too hilarious to be true. Not to mention that they had to slaughter almost completely the male population of the indigenous people, for which I see no evidence, especially if we cannot see such harsh breaks in the culture at the arrival of the newcomers. The R1b-cowboys seemed to be far less aggressive compared to their eastern brothers of the east-european forrest plains.

But most of all, I am absolutely certain that Daddy-King won't like Son-Prince to quibber in this strange local language to his subjects or even worse, to his 'soldiers'. That's a no-go for a conqueror. However you try to fit this theory in a conceivable manner, you have to fail.

Trying to solve the problem I want to make a few proposals, which have enough likelihood and are not in conflict with common sense:
1. The iberoceltic migrants never conquered the Basque country. No conquest, no 'occupation' of the language.
2. The Basques in their Pyreneaen valleys had some hard time living there with lots of disasters - illness, avalanches, floods, hunger , you name it. Regular bottlenecks will be the consequences.
3. Regularly the peopling of the valleys went down and people from the surrouding lowlands migrated into the mountain valleys. This is the way some R1b-farmers came into the Basque country.
4. The isolation of the people there lead to genetic degeneration. Genetic diseases, infertility, you know. The newcomers, (maybe even carrying diseases, with which the indigenous people had some distress) with better genes were certainly procreating more successfully and therefore gradually increase in size, got assimilated within 3-4 generations, and despite their different haplogroup they became Basques, culturally and languagewise. Continued repetition of this lets the percentage of R1b grow until they are by far the most frequent haplogroup. The language is kept intact, but it will be enhanced with a lot of foreign vocabulary imported by the migrants, which obviously is the case with the Basque language.

berun
08-02-17, 06:50
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.es/2017_02_01_archive.html?m=1

A post from blogger Maju about the Basque / DF27 issue. I agree mainly except for the area of formation. The Gascon-French side of the clade can be explained by the expanding Wascones in the sixth century.

For those thinking that their R1b is debt by IE just is worth to look how Basques have 70% DF27 and their Cantabric neighbours (also in mountain isolated areas but allways Indoeuropean as Celtic or Latin) drop to 42%.

Fire Haired14
08-02-17, 08:52
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.es/2017_02_01_archive.html?m=1

A post from blogger Maju about the Basque / DF27 issue. I agree mainly except for the area of formation. The Gascon-French side of the clade can be explained by the expanding Wascones in the sixth century.

For those thinking that their R1b is debt by IE just is worth to look how Basques have 70% DF27 and their Cantabric neighbours (also in mountain isolated areas but allways Indoeuropean as Celtic or Latin) drop to 42%.

Basque_French
Lengyel_LN 0.563
Western_HG 0.082
Yamnaya_Samara 0.355
chisq 15.364 tail_prob 0.166411

Chalcolithic European Y DNA (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SBEMpAR6bdCNvVRzRzYF19wEzK-5Eh4qfT5LtzEpK3o/edit#gid=0)

Basque country, SW France=100% I2a, G2a, H2
Russia=90%+ R1b.

berun
08-02-17, 21:20
Your results are quite different than that of Genetiker... someone might fail, or both.
Your Russian R1b are still in the steppes. They didn't change address.

MOESAN
09-02-17, 00:32
no answer of mine
- Y-R1b still appears recent in Iberia, and FOR THE MOST come from just North (South France? earlier from Alps?); I don't exclude some rarest R1b subclades (archaic forms and other lineages) came to Iberia before that at very low rates - the "Basque" Y-R1b seems to me come from North as others
- the question of language is still there - since long ago I think, without any certainty, in a possible non-IE speaking part of more western Y-R1b; NO affirmation here -
- why some western tribes of Y-R1b from somewhere in Western Steppes (rather than Anatolia) would not have reached western Europe without IE language when their relatives stayed in East has been lately indo-europeanized somewhere in Eastern Europe / Western Steppes ? - some tribes were in contact in the Steppes, with DNA exchanges I think, and some stayed finno-ugric when others spoke IEan and maybe others farther East some kind of turkic - not to say a language change is done in a short time what I don't believe at all.

ngc598
10-02-17, 17:05
...why some western tribes of Y-R1b from somewhere in Western Steppes (rather than Anatolia) would not have reached western Europe without IE language when their relatives stayed in East has been lately indo-europeanized somewhere in Eastern Europe / Western Steppes ? - some tribes were in contact in the Steppes, with DNA exchanges I think, and some stayed finno-ugric when others spoke IEan and maybe others farther East some kind of turkic - not to say a language change is done in a short time what I don't believe at all.
I think there is overwhelming evidence that all R1-people were Indoeuropean speakers from the beginning. Wherever they went, you find the traces of IE languages throughout the whole Eurasian continent. There is no need to twist ones mind to justify a different thesis.

Linguists have tried a lot to find a connection between languages of the East and Basque - caucasian, uralic, turkic languages - and failed completely. The most probable explanation is still that Basque is an autochthonic language which has gathered some portion of its vocabulary from surrounding IE and nonIE languages.

To account for the strange fact that old Iberian languages had retained their integrity despite the R1b-'invasion' we must look at the geography of western Europe. While the west and north of Europe has little barriers for the R1b migrants except for the Channel separating the UK from the continent, the European south has the Alpes and the Pyrenean mountains. You can't simply run over them with a big horde of people and cattle (or whatever). So the immigration was slow and the local population could not be outnumbered easily. The population density and the social organisation of the indigenous people on one hand, and the amount of newcomers and the time intervall, in which they came, decided, whose language became the dominant one. If the immigrants' population size grew slow compared to the population of the local population, they were assimilated before they outnumbered them, accepted the language of them and were already locals, before the next wave of newcomers arrived.

It's not a coincidence that almost all known nonIE languages of ancient Europe (Tartessian, Iberian, Basque, Rhaeto-Etruscan, North-Picenic, Ligurian, Sikanic) were located south of the Alps and the Pyrenean mountains. The invaders couldn't move fast enough into the territories to force their language and culture upon the residents before they were assimilated.

MarkoZ
10-02-17, 17:17
I think there is overwhelming evidence that all R1-people were Indoeuropean speakers from the beginning. Wherever they went, you find the traces of IE languages throughout the whole Eurasian continent. There is no need to twist ones mind to justify a different thesis.

It's one thing to say that the European clades of R1b & R1a were involved in the spread of Indo-European languages, but it's simply impossible that R1 was Indo-European speaking from the beginning.

ngc598
10-02-17, 18:11
It's one thing to say that the European clades of R1b & R1a were involved in the spread of Indo-European languages, but it's simply impossible that R1 was Indo-European speaking from the beginning.
Then my question:
Which known R1-folk(s) did NOT speak an IE language from the beginning of their existence? (Evidence required!)

MarkoZ
10-02-17, 19:12
Then my question:
Which known R1-folk(s) did NOT speak an IE language from the beginning of their existence? (Evidence required!)

Apart from them many Turkic groups (who might have inherited their Y-DNA from Indo-Iranian speakers), there appear to be old clades of R1 all over Central & South Asia as far as Bhutan with no ovious association to Indo-European languages.

That's not the real problem with the R1 = Indo-European equation though. It's the 15,000+ year gaps between the emergence of R1 and the breakup of PIE.

That's not to say that your conclusions about R1b in Basques aren't reasonable, btw.

ngc598
10-02-17, 20:08
That's not the real problem with the R1 = Indo-European equation though. It's the 15,000+ year gaps between the emergence of R1 and the breakup of PIE.
I see that my use of the term 'R1-people' lacks precision. Let me list an hierarchical order: person->family->clan->tribe->people (or folk if you like). Hunter-gatherer groups of the glacial times are in my view no peoples at all. They are at best several clans together. As for the language: I would rather call itheir communication 'clan-speak' than language. I can't imagine that a language, which is understood by all members of the folk, can develop if there is not a certain degree of social organisation over a wider area, with meeting centers for exchange of experience, trade, common projects etc. So the time frame I'm thinking here is less than 10.000 years BP, maybe even considerably less. In that context I can't see that we have R1a or R1b peoples who certainly did not speak an IE/protoIE or pre-protoIE language apart for the enigmatic African example and some side clades for which we don't have cultural evidence of their existenceas a defined people.

Fire Haired14
10-02-17, 22:00
Your results are quite different than that of Genetiker... someone might fail, or both.
Your Russian R1b are still in the steppes. They didn't change address.

I added all of Geneticker's results to my spreadsheet.

MarkoZ
11-02-17, 14:23
I see that my use of the term 'R1-people' lacks precision. Let me list an hierarchical order: person->family->clan->tribe->people (or folk if you like). Hunter-gatherer groups of the glacial times are in my view no peoples at all. They are at best several clans together. As for the language: I would rather call itheir communication 'clan-speak' than language. I can't imagine that a language, which is understood by all members of the folk, can develop if there is not a certain degree of social organisation over a wider area, with meeting centers for exchange of experience, trade, common projects etc. So the time frame I'm thinking here is less than 10.000 years BP, maybe even considerably less. In that context I can't see that we have R1a or R1b peoples who certainly did not speak an IE/protoIE or pre-protoIE language apart for the enigmatic African example and some side clades for which we don't have cultural evidence of their existenceas a defined people.

As I see it, there are three problems when it comes to our undestanding of paragroup R and its relationship with Eurasian languages: (i) historic expansions that considerably reduced language diversity, namely the Roman, Iranian, Turkic & Arabic expansions, (ii) the glaring lack of ancient DNA from South-East Asia to Central Asia, i. e. the most likely trajectory of R and by extension P1 and (iii) the low occurence of literacy in Central Asia and the larger Eurasian plain before the Iranian expansions (the Iberian peninsula is an exception in this sense, because pre-Roman language diversity could be preserved due to early Phoenician contacts). One Central Asian isolate survives in Burushaski, whose speakers seem to have both old and young clades of R.

A scenario in which PIE emerges from a mixed group of R1b and R1a I consider rather unlikely, because it would require two sharply differentiated haplogroups to meet and stay put in one place only to become neatly seperated again after expansion. Assimilation requires fewer coincidences and has a stronger explanatory power with regards to Y-DNA patterns observed today. The hypothetical pre-Proto-IE clade need not necessarily have been very successful in this case.

ngc598
12-02-17, 16:43
offtopic


A scenario in which PIE emerges from a mixed group of R1b and R1a I consider rather unlikely, because it would require two sharply differentiated haplogroups to meet and stay put in one place only to become neatly seperated again after expansion. Assimilation requires fewer coincidences and has a stronger explanatory power with regards to Y-DNA patterns observed today. The hypothetical pre-Proto-IE clade need not necessarily have been very successful in this case.
I don't have this conflict, simply because I do not believe the consensus of the linguists, that there was only one principal proto-IE language. My thinking is lazy and simple, so I dislike a top down proto language, which can't even produce a proper tree; can't answer the pre-Big Bang question; gets a ridiculous accumulation of linguistic components (and therefore is almost impossible to learn),when converged back in time; and only tongue acrobats can form even simple sentences out of these hmpf-grmbl-mrks PIE constructs; and has no explanation why some base vocabulary is almost strictly conserved and others is not, without any understandable pattern; and best of all needs to dig Missis Gimbutas out of her grave, shove her in a time-capsule and send her to the folks, which separated before the building of the protoIE language (but today speak IE despite their great separation to the other IE-speakers), throw an IE-dictionary onto them and tell them "From now on you speak IE! Basta!"

So in my view it didn't need R1a and R1b clashing together, founding PIE and then off they go. For me IE was an oligocentric language group from the beginning, never a single language.
/offtopic

Txuko
21-05-17, 12:39
Tying to simplificate the question, I will try to make some affirmations that could be accepted for all (or almost all) of us to get to a conclusion.


1- Basque people have little indoeuropean origin if we look at mitochondrial and autosomic information: there is a lack of Red Sea, Southwest Asian and Caucasian admixtures and an absence of original indoeuropean mitochondrial haplogroups in basque people.

2- The basque language is non-indoeuropean, which agree with the previous assertion. I have only been able to find one linguist that classifies basque as indoeuropean language: Gianfranco Forni, and he received a lot of critics from other linguists. Besides, if one accepts that basque is indoeuropean, should be explained how is possible the point 1. It complicates the things more than simplify them.

3- The Y chromosome haplogroup of basque people is mainly R1b-P312 and, not only it is the most frequent haplogroup but that haplogroup is more frequent in basque people (toghether with people from Brittany) than in other part of the world.
This point can be explained by two ways:

3.1: The R1b is not an indoeuropean origin haplogroup. This argument is against all current accepted studies. If that were true then or the conclusions about the movements of haplogroups through Europe or about the indoeuropean invasions would be false.

3.2: The Y chromosome haplogroup has changed without a considerable alteration of the autosomic admixture and mitochondrial haplogroups. This is too difficult to accept because 90% of basques are R1b-P312, which is a too big proportion, but could be explained, for example, by a poligamous celtic ruling class.


My opinion: is easier to accept a small exception (3.2) than to make a big change in global hipothesis based in only one argument (3.1).

Anyway, only new data would be able to clarify the question.

Fatherland
08-06-17, 17:01
They carry the R1b-clade not associated with Indo-Europeans/Yamnaya.

MOESAN
09-06-17, 22:13
offtopic

I don't have this conflict, simply because I do not believe the consensus of the linguists, that there was only one principal proto-IE language. My thinking is lazy and simple, so I dislike a top down proto language, which can't even produce a proper tree; can't answer the pre-Big Bang question; gets a ridiculous accumulation of linguistic components (and therefore is almost impossible to learn),when converged back in time; and only tongue acrobats can form even simple sentences out of these hmpf-grmbl-mrks PIE constructs; and has no explanation why some base vocabulary is almost strictly conserved and others is not, without any understandable pattern; and best of all needs to dig Missis Gimbutas out of her grave, shove her in a time-capsule and send her to the folks, which separated before the building of the protoIE language (but today speak IE despite their great separation to the other IE-speakers), throw an IE-dictionary onto them and tell them "From now on you speak IE! Basta!"

So in my view it didn't need R1a and R1b clashing together, founding PIE and then off they go. For me IE was an oligocentric language group from the beginning, never a single language.
/offtopic

Your disdain about reconstruction is maybe not well based? Someones are a bit acrobatic, not all of them; and the greater orbustess of consonnants/stops in front of vowels is still the rality today amog I-E sons languages; length of vowells acting upon aperture is linked to stress place and phonetic environment; some vowels purely disappear by syllabic stress change linked to diverse causes, some epenthetic vowels can find birth for same reasons; It deserves more study than disregard -
the up-to-down tree can very well cohabit with some repeated new contacts between "sons" languages of same proto-origin, I think, opening way to some apparent exceptions in phonetic rules, knowing sometimes the I-E 'son has been adopted by speakers of other languages families. IMO.
my "experience" of languages convergences and loans does not confirm it results in the hyerarchy we find among cognates for the I-E which rather supposes an unique common proto-language. Maybe I'm wrong...

MOESAN
09-06-17, 22:26
as old as Nessie. One other hypothesis is a the R1B-P312<<L51 not speaking I-E at first, the first indoeuropeanized of them IEized in their most eastern territories (Central-East Europe?) by another Y-haplo (if only ONE) when the first ones were keeping on with their first aquitanic-basquic language; very hypothetic and already said; but I avow the Celtic male small elite changing language as Franks did after but in another context (Maciamo was the first to say this I think) is not as bad as I thought at first sight. Mea culpa?

novakovich
13-07-17, 20:50
Origin of Basque and Albanian people was always big mystery for me. Many years ago I heard theories that Basque people are direct offspring of Cro-magnon people. Now that theory is no longer valid since it is proved that haplogroup I people are direct descendants of Cro-magnons. Somewhere I read articles that Basque language is most similar with Armenian language. Since Armenians are also R1b people most logical conclusion that both nations speak languages which derived from original language of R1b peoples, and that Basque language is preserved by escaping romanization due to remoteness and isolation of Basque land.

Dretsend
16-11-17, 02:24
The fact is that Basque was spoken not only in nowadays Basque country but all of the Pyrinees and Catalonia mainland, at least, where you can still find places with Basque names or the influence on Occitan/Gascon phonotactics (where, as in Basque, no word can begin by R sound) You will also find some toponymic similarities with names of mountains in Germany with the Eib- root, which may have easily kept a pre-IE name.


Also an interesting exercise is to google “strawberry”, closely linked to the land, found in the wild -thus disconnected from farming-, an ideal word to find substrates...
- Fresa, fraise, fragola in most Latin languages, different forms of -berries in Germanic languages...
- Marrubi/a in Basque,
- Maduixa in Catalan, majuixa in Occitan,


maybe even...
- Maasikas in Estonian,
- Mansikkaa in Finnish
- Martsqvis in Georgian...?


If you combine that with the fact that R1b seems to be more concentrated on the western coast of Europe -with the exception of Catalonia (at least for subclade DF27) which is the other end of the Ebro river “highway”- it looks as if R1b were gradually pushed to the edges in the same way that Gaellic were pushed to Cornwall and current Wales in Britain.

Could it be that R1b and IE languages are not related indeed? Might it be the origin was just the same IE population but with a different culture? What if, instead of having Basques resist IE influence, the last IE population waves had been lately influenced by what we know as IE languages, by the same means that have been used to explain the influence on Basque populations...In fact, Catalan population, sharing many traits with Basque one and being Iberian seemingly related to Euskara, adopted Latin easily.

CrazyDonkey
07-01-18, 00:51
First post here, after having lurked for a good while, and read most of the thread (although skipping a couple clearly speaking nonsense). Following are some of my thoughts (an attempt to develop an overall picture and frame, without getting too deep into the genetic "weeds") that have been stimulated by the discussion and other Internet browsings - feel free to correct or amend them.

It seems to me that we have three major migrations into Europe:

1. Hunter-gatherers (Cro-Magnons) replacing the Neanderthals.

2. Agriculturalists (R1b?) displacing hunter-gatherers.

3. Pastoralists (R1a?) replacing agricultural ruling elites with warrior-aristocracies, but leaving the remainder of the population in place (as thralls).

R1b becoming stronger the further west might be explained by small groups of pioneer agriculturalists migrating from the "fertile crescent" seeking suitable land/soil (river valleys/deltas), with their populations then rapidly expanding locally, displacing the much lower-density hunter-gatherer populations.

The R1b incidence map shows a "wave" pattern that grows stronger the further west it goes - this can possibly be explained by 1) progressive migrations, as soil exhaustion and/or overpopulation spur further westward colonization, meaning that migration is amplified the further west it goes; 2) higher-density/growth agricultural populations displacing/dispersing lower-density/growth hunter-gatherer populations, with the latter minimally impacting the latter's genetics; 3) founder effects from initially small groups of R1b-carrying colonizers.

The R1a incidence map, on the other hand shows the exact opposite: R1a grows weaker the further west one goes. These were likely smaller group pastoral migrations that encountered settled higher-density agricultural populations, replacing ruling elites with warrior-aristocracies, while taking wives from the indigenous population, but otherwise leaving it in place. This would lead to genetic assimilation, with the incidence of R1a being weakened and diluted the further west one goes, even though they were able to successfully impose their language.

Because the R1b migration was possibly initially in a few small groups, it need not be genetically representative of the population/area it migrated from. Note, however, the concentration of R1b in the area of the Caucusus and northwest Iran.

A marine route via Cyprus and Crete could have been faster than the overland route, allowing R1b-carrying mariners to beat the overlanders (with or without R1b) to Iberia, from which they (Bell Beakers?) later spread to the rest of Western Europe. By the time the landlubbers made it to the Atlantic, they found the marine migrators already well established.

ROS
07-01-18, 02:11
9607
The fact is that Basque was spoken not only in nowadays Basque country but all of the Pyrinees and Catalonia mainland, at least, where you can still find places with Basque names or the influence on Occitan/Gascon phonotactics (where, as in Basque, no word can begin by R sound) You will also find some toponymic similarities with names of mountains in Germany with the Eib- root, which may have easily kept a pre-IE name.


Also an interesting exercise is to google “strawberry”, closely linked to the land, found in the wild -thus disconnected from farming-, an ideal word to find substrates...
- Fresa, fraise, fragola in most Latin languages, different forms of -berries in Germanic languages...
- Marrubi/a in Basque,
- Maduixa in Catalan, majuixa in Occitan,


maybe even...
- Maasikas in Estonian,
- Mansikkaa in Finnish
- Martsqvis in Georgian...?


If you combine that with the fact that R1b seems to be more concentrated on the western coast of Europe -with the exception of Catalonia (at least for subclade DF27) which is the other end of the Ebro river “highway”- it looks as if R1b were gradually pushed to the edges in the same way that Gaellic were pushed to Cornwall and current Wales in Britain.

Could it be that R1b and IE languages are not related indeed? Might it be the origin was just the same IE population but with a different culture? What if, instead of having Basques resist IE influence, the last IE population waves had been lately influenced by what we know as IE languages, by the same means that have been used to explain the influence on Basque populations...In fact, Catalan population, sharing many traits with Basque one and being Iberian seemingly related to Euskara, adopted Latin easily.


Not only the Catalans, the entire Turdetana_Iberica area adopted Latin very easily.



It could be that in the Iberico_tartesica zone some of the Indo-European languages of the peninsula were spoken at the popular level, being the Iberian a cult and Mediterranean language of the elites, that having its own writing with origin seems to be Phoenician is what has been transmitted?



If it is true that Tartesica_Iberica_Vasco_Aquitana pre-Roman toponymy have quite similar.

Olympus Mons
07-01-18, 12:44
9607

Not only the Catalans, the entire Turdetana_Iberica area adopted Latin very easily.



It could be that in the Iberico_tartesica zone some of the Indo-European languages of the peninsula were spoken at the popular level, being the Iberian a cult and Mediterranean language of the elites, that having its own writing with origin seems to be Phoenician is what has been transmitted?



If it is true that Tartesica_Iberica_Vasco_Aquitana pre-Roman toponymy have quite similar.

Hi, By the way. Catalans (as well as basques and all rest of spain) is DF27- Z195. So basicly all have the same subclades, all descend from the same pop. Sometimes it looks like there are attempts to make some differentiation.

Z195 is almost as old as DF27 (+- 4400bp). So Z195 could even have meet the old man DF27.
However the Portuguese, being high on DF27, have "no" Z195. Actually being 60% M269 true is that the high amount of M269 without P312 sets them "apart" from iberia and someone needs to test for other subclades (like L51...). Or at least It really makes the east to west migration of r1b not that clean and neat. On a east to west all Portuguese should have Z195. They do not have it.

howyesno
17-01-18, 20:44
I also think that the seafaring abilities of people 5000 years ago would have been sufficient for them to travel long distances across the Black Sea and Mediterranean. However the size of the ships would have been small and they could never have launched a massive migration or invasion by sea. Neolithic farmers certainly used ships to colonise the Mediterranean coast and islands, but I seriously doubt that the Indo-Europeans from the Pontic Steppe did, apart maybe for moving along the Black Sea coast. A small contingent of immigrants landing in France or Iberia would never have been able to take over the whole of Western Europe in a few centuries. That is just not possible. Additionally the archaeological record doesn't show any new Bronze Age or steppe culture springing out of nowhere in France or Iberia, but clearly shows a slow progression from Ukraine and Romania along the Danube, then from Germany to all Western Europe. There is not the slightest doubt about that in my mind.

can we see ht35 hotspots as earlier spread i.e. spread before L51 subbranches like u106 ,L21, s116 u152 and DF27 developed?
if that is the case then we can see hotspots of ht35 as original settlement points of R1b in Europe?

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-Z2103.png

sea route was from Asia minor to south Greece and Albania then to south Italy, and sea coasts of France and Iberia as well as in celtic Iberia in Spain
land route was dwelling in Dacia before spreading via Danube route to west Europe

Basques are not hotspot in this original spread. So it is either that Basques were separate wave e.g. DF27 or they were subjugated or infiltretated later in more peacful times which enabled them to keep the language

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Linguistic_map_Southwestern_Europe.gif

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-DF27.png
If DF27 is original Basque marker, Basques could have originally been spread over all Spain (losing first Celtic Iberia to IE invaders) and France with their teritory shrinking in time due to IE speaking R1b arrivals same as we withness Basque language area shrinking in modern times. This would imply that some branches of R1b spoke non IE language. Etruscans also were non IE speakers and came from R1b rich area of Asia minor. So Asia minor must have had both non IE and IE speaking R1b branches. However DF27 not being present in Asia minor but being already there in south Greece and Sicily implies that the DF27 branch emerged after R1b moved from Asia minor to Europe. So it could be that indoeuropeastion of R1b happened in Asia minor, while DF27 escaped indoeuropisation while being settled in south Greece and Sicily. It would be interesting to investigate links between Basque language and Etruscan.

hrvclv
18-01-18, 02:16
Autosomally,
Basques = WHG + ENF (fairly restrictively). So, as their language is not IE, it must have been the language of one of those two.
Steppe = WHG +CHG

When the Steppe men settled in Hungary, they got admixed with Farmers - themselves ENF + WHG. Their CHG percentage shrank. The WHG element was reinforced. The ENF element came in. The same thing happened again when they moved North West to southern Poland and Czechia (Unetice). And again when they expanded further westwards (Halstatt), with always more ENF, more WHG, less CHG.

R1b expansion from the steppe to the Atlantic took 2000 years. Think of what can happen in 10 years (Caesar conquering Gaul, the Cimbri leaving Jutland, vanquishing, then disappearing), or in 10 hours (Hastings). There may have been multiple raids, or exploration incursions, or trading expeditions, of varying importance and impact, into western Europe while the Proto-Celtic culture was emerging in Central Europe. There was that "ver sacrum" thing, groups of young men sent away or ahead to raid and explore. Some early groups or tribes may have tried their luck into yet unexplored territories.

And there is also that Q-Celtic / P-Celtic partiton, with Q-Celtic being apparently the older original form. L21 and DF27 people are/were essentially Q-Celtic. U152, P-Celtic (essentially). Therefore, Q-Celtic people probably left Central Europe quite a while before the P-Celtic guys moved.

Nobody can tell for sure whether or not the Ligures south of the Alps France spoke a Celtic language before the La Tene people arrived. Their language is suspected to have been IE, akin to Celtic, with many pre-IE elements. Similarly, the Lusitanians spoke a non-Celtic IE language. My point is : the first IE people who arrived in western Europe may have been Q-Celtic adventurers, not necessarily numerous, and not all of them equally successful. Those already largely admixed people mixed with the inhabitants they found in the British Isles (L21) in France (DF27, L21), in Iberia (DF27, L21 in Galicia and thereabouts). Lusitanians and Goidels retained their languages, Ligures mixed theirs with the local lingo, and the R1b boys who ended up in the Basque country lost theirs, maybe over more than one generation. They may have been very brutal, but few in numbers, and strongly admixed, so over time all they left was their Y-dna, and just enough autosomal change for Basques to slightly differ from Iberians.

The Vikings who were granted ownership of Normandy in 911 spoke Norse. When William conquered England in 1066, he and his men all spoke French. They had lost their own language in just 150 years. It just goes to show that sometimes, the winners too can be culturally assimilated.

firetown
19-01-18, 11:28
Autosomally,
Basques = WHG + ENF (fairly restrictively).

Then how come their percentage of rh negatives is so much higher than both?

hrvclv
20-01-18, 01:26
Then how come their percentage of rh negatives is so much higher than both?

Honestly ? I don't have a clue. Maybe some form of adaptation or natural selection ? Isolation ? Endogamy ? Why did some Europeans suddenly decide to grow red hair ? Or turn white ?

I can only go by what I read - namely that they are whg + enf + that tinge of something else.

/Serg/
09-03-18, 23:47
1. The iberoceltic migrants never conquered the Basque country. No conquest, no 'occupation' of the language.
2. The Basques in their Pyreneaen valleys had some hard time living there with lots of disasters - illness, avalanches, floods, hunger , you name it. Regular bottlenecks will be the consequences.
3. Regularly the peopling of the valleys went down and people from the surrouding lowlands migrated into the mountain valleys. This is the way some R1b-farmers came into the Basque country.
4. The isolation of the people there lead to genetic degeneration. Genetic diseases, infertility, you know. The newcomers, (maybe even carrying diseases, with which the indigenous people had some distress) with better genes were certainly procreating more successfully and therefore gradually increase in size, got assimilated within 3-4 generations, and despite their different haplogroup they became Basques, culturally and languagewise. Continued repetition of this lets the percentage of R1b grow until they are by far the most frequent haplogroup. The language is kept intact, but it will be enhanced with a lot of foreign vocabulary imported by the migrants, which obviously is the case with the Basque language.

According to our linguists, S.A. Starostin and I. Garshin, http://www.garshin.ru/linguistics/languages/dene-caucasian/index.html Basque language belongs to the Dene-Caucasian language group, alongside with other languages noted in the discussion (believe me, I read all 8 pages!), most of speakers of them belongs to the Y-DNA haplogroup C.

On the pictures:
1. Dene-Caucasian languages according to the "glosso-chronological" research,
2. Today's distribution of the C Y-DNA Haplogroup,
3. Modern people who has C Y-DNA Haplogroup,
4. A hunter from La Brania-Arintero (pre-historic Spain),
5. A hunter from Sunghir (pre-historic Russia).

98409841984298439844

Ygorcs
10-03-18, 01:49
Autosomally,
Basques = WHG + ENF (fairly restrictively). So, as their language is not IE, it must have been the language of one of those two.
Steppe = WHG +CHG

I understand your point, but that is not very accurate. Steppe is mainly EHG + CHG, and EHG by its turn ia mix of a source very similar - not necessarily identical - to WHG with a relevant contribution of ANE ancestry. Many milennia after that WHG+ANE mix, especially in linguistic and cultural terms, but even genetically, my guess is that EHG weren't very WHG-like at all any longer.

hrvclv
10-03-18, 02:42
I understand your point, but that is not very accurate. Steppe is mainly EHG + CHG, and EHG by its turn ia mix of a source very similar - not necessarily identical - to WHG with a relevant contribution of ANE ancestry. Many milennia after that WHG+ANE mix, especially in linguistic and cultural terms, but even genetically, my guess is that EHG weren't very WHG-like at all any longer.

Yes... I realized afterwards that, in my haste to get to the point, I had oversimplified things a bit. And I also agree that it is the element of EHG in Basque genetics that makes Basques what they are - distinct from their closest neighbours, particularly to the west.

Still, I feel tempted to stick to my "multiple inroads" hypothesis. Some linguists have suggested that Lusitanian was in some ways closer to Italic languages than to Celtic. So it could date back to very early times, when Proto-Celtic and Proto-Italic were still undifferentiated. I'd say Unetice, since CWC, though more contemporaneous with Bell-Beaker, is far too R1a to be a candidate. This would also explain why, as someone pointed out in an earlier post, the Portuguese have high levels of "old" R1b clades. To make matters more personal, my own son-in-law, who was born on the Minho-Galicia border, is R-P310*.

The "Basque" R1b, and Ligures, in my scenario, would have been early DF27 proto-Celts or Q-Celts stepping into Bell-Beaker territories. L21 Q-Celts would have moved, simultaneously or not, mostly to the British Isles, but also to Galicia, with possibly, if we take old Irish myths into account, later contacts between Galicia and Ireland. After those people had left, the P/Q shift occurred somewhere north of the Alps, among Celtic-speakers, but also among Italic-speakers ( Osco-Umbrians). These would have been U152.

I haven't got much to prove all this. Yet, this is where the evidence seems to point...

ToBeOrNotToBe
20-05-18, 02:48
Perhaps R1b folk migrated along the Mediterranean to the Iberian Peninsula and expanded out of there as the Beaker Bell culture, with its most easterly components coming under the influence of R1a IE folks, and adopting IE language as well as IE technology that allowed them to back migrate into territory that was already substantially R1b, spreading the IE language and culture as they went, except in some R1b areas where they were never really dominant, such as Basque country. And I believe some linguists have proposed Gaelic is a Celtic language that has a Vasconic (Basque-like) substratum, which would mean a limited number of R1b Celts taking over a Vasconic R1b Ireland. OKay, that scenario may not be very probable, but neither is any other scenario for R1b, IMO.

Despite the Olalde paper, I honestly can believe this. I just can’t think of a good way L51 could have come from the Steppe, given the invasion in the Balkans just had to have been Z2103. I really, really don’t understand how people can’t see that the lack of L51 in the Balkans isn’t a HUGE giveaway. There’s also other clues too, such as just how different the B.B. autosomal component profile is to CW and Yamnaya (as one example: way more EEF, way less CHG). Higher Steppe mtDNA in Unetice is from this blending with Corded Ware women.

I will absolutely never believe in the Danube-route for R1b-L51, but it’s possible this R1b-L51 came from the Steppe to East-Central Europe (or, another idea, L23 originating in the Balkans (but way before Yamnaya, more around the Chalcolithic)) and splitting into two groups - Z2103 to the South in Anatolia, and L51 to the North.

I really have no clue to be honest, except I see any origin of L51 from the Yamnaya expansion into the Balkans as ludicrous.

EDIT: Actually none of what I said about an Iberian or Balkan origin makes sense linguistically. I’ll go for the Steppe-to-East-Central Europe option then. Perhaps not even Yamnaya though.

Second EDIT: The more I think, the more I get confused. Thinking about it, the languages of Western Europeans could just be from the Corded Ware culture, as these R1b prolific "bullies" probably wouldn’t have replaced the language of the people they imposed themselves on - this is different to the Indo-Aryan expansion where this was the case, in my opinion, because it wouldn’t be nearly as big of a population flow - just a lot of *******, which can also be seen by the huge explosion of variety in L51.

Phenotypically, a Beaker-Corded mix makes perfect sense - Coon predicted this by noticing the Dinaroid features of North Atlantids. Baskids also show stronger Beaker influence than the other Mediterranids around them.

ToBeOrNotToBe
20-05-18, 03:10
Actually what I just said isn’t tightly-knit at all, ignore it for now.

I am very confident on the Beaker-Corded mix though, rather than Beaker being a derivative of Yamnaya.

Expredel
20-05-18, 03:54
3.2: The Y chromosome haplogroup has changed without a considerable alteration of the autosomic admixture and mitochondrial haplogroups. This is too difficult to accept because 90% of basques are R1b-P312, which is a too big proportion, but could be explained, for example, by a poligamous celtic ruling class.

Most of Europe became light-skinned without a considerable alteration of the autosomic admixture. The Basques demonstrate that R1b was positively selected for.

As for the origin of IE, R1b expanded before R1a, just like it expanded before I1. Once you take that into account the mystery is pretty much solved.

A. Papadimitriou
20-05-18, 04:26
can we see ht35 hotspots as earlier spread i.e. spread before L51 subbranches like u106 ,L21, s116 u152 and DF27 developed?
if that is the case then we can see hotspots of ht35 as original settlement points of R1b in Europe?

[...]

sea route was from Asia minor to south Greece and Albania then to south Italy, and sea coasts of France and Iberia as well as in celtic Iberia in Spain
land route was dwelling in Dacia before spreading via Danube route to west Europe

Basques are not hotspot in this original spread. So it is either that Basques were separate wave e.g. DF27 or they were subjugated or infiltretated later in more peacful times which enabled them to keep the language

[...]

If DF27 is original Basque marker, Basques could have originally been spread over all Spain (losing first Celtic Iberia to IE invaders) and France with their teritory shrinking in time due to IE speaking R1b arrivals same as we withness Basque language area shrinking in modern times. This would imply that some branches of R1b spoke non IE language. Etruscans also were non IE speakers and came from R1b rich area of Asia minor. So Asia minor must have had both non IE and IE speaking R1b branches. However DF27 not being present in Asia minor but being already there in south Greece and Sicily implies that the DF27 branch emerged after R1b moved from Asia minor to Europe. So it could be that indoeuropeastion of R1b happened in Asia minor, while DF27 escaped indoeuropisation while being settled in south Greece and Sicily. It would be interesting to investigate links between Basque language and Etruscan.

DF27 arrived in Greece probably after 1204 AD with Catalans, search Duchy of Athens.

Assuming that this map is correct, that haplogroup seems more likely to have originated in Iberia than anywhere else. I would like to test the hypothesis that it originated in N. Italy or Central Europe though. It seems theoretically possible to me.

[Those who consider possible a maritime route for the expansion of certain R1b subclades, should consider movements that involve parts of N. Africa]

PelayoelGonzalez
13-07-18, 15:53
What criticism did Forni receive?

firetown
19-07-18, 19:42
Honestly ? I don't have a clue. Maybe some form of adaptation or natural selection ? Isolation ? Endogamy ? Why did some Europeans suddenly decide to grow red hair ? Or turn white ?

I can only go by what I read - namely that they are whg + enf + that tinge of something else.
Then something has to be wrong. Maybe it is the chart of rh- frequencies listed in the other thread. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense at all that whg and enf formed them.

But then again... according to the chart, rh negative frequencies would have gone down drastically in most of europe. So the question then would be to identify that "something else".

gidai
23-08-18, 19:35
3.2: The Y chromosome haplogroup has changed without a considerable alteration of the autosomic admixture and mitochondrial haplogroups. This is too difficult to accept because 90% of basques are R1b-P312 ...
I think this his can explain this point.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/36890-One-probable-cause-of-the-increase-and-decay-of-haplogroups-frequencies?p=551805&viewfull=1#post551805

firetown
30-08-18, 15:57
AND THAT THE r1B CELTS WERE ORIGINALLY SCYTHIANS FROM THE PONTIC STEPS- A HORSE AND CATTLE CULTURE!!

Looking at the timelines of the migrations, it would make more sense to state that both, the Scythians and the Celts are descendants of the Yamna people.

Conastoga
18-09-18, 08:47
"So Basque never became R1b; Basque always was R1b, just everybody else became IE." Now, take in account Younger Dryas Event and refuges south. Take into account of Agazzis Glacial Lake last outburst c. 6,200 BCE raising sea levels significantly. The Atlantic climatic optimum c. 6,500 BCE needs considering while realizing it changes about 4,000 BCE during which time gardening has became significant in Iberian Peninsula. The Atlantic Maritime Culture ranged from c. 5,500 BCE into the middle Bronze Age. The sites range along the coast of Northern Spain and western French coast, around Ireland and the British Isles and into Scandinavia. I'm suggesting taking into account the weather periods and archaeological sites. I've seen several dates establishing the rise of R1b, several before Younger Dryas Catastrophe. And, archaeology knows about things that should really be considered. R1b just very well might taken refuge in the Iberian from the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) and Younger Dryas while R1a took refuge through the Balkans/Anatolia. Those Asians you mentioned may well have taken refuge form the Steppes through Afghanistan across northern Indian's most "green lands" into Burma/Myanmar. I got a hunch Basque descend from Hunter-gatherers taking refuge in the Iberian Peninsula. After all, the "Ghost Theory" of a unknown population across Eurasia takes in account of the peopling of Native Americans having R1b and the X hablogroups rather it be during optimum climate before the Younger Dryas or after 9,600 BCE. I'm suggesting Basque may very well be considered indigenous LGM hunter-gatherer refugees later with a connection that Maritime Culture so many with little archaeological knowledge know about. Please excuse my "wordy" and digressive nature. Thank you kindly.

Leptismagna
01-10-18, 11:46
Hi, Eupedia membership!

GRDTobin
03-10-18, 03:56
As far as Basque L21 goes, there’s a plausible medieval contribution: the prolific Albret/Labrit family, whom I suspect to be a (self-conscious) part of the wide-ranging Late Antique British diaspora.

GRDTobin
03-10-18, 03:59
Caps-lock key requires attention.

GRDTobin
03-10-18, 04:00
A common cultural origin might explain what the Bretons and Alans appreciated in each other after 451.

MOESAN
04-10-18, 23:53
"So Basque never became R1b; Basque always was R1b, just everybody else became IE." Now, take in account Younger Dryas Event and refuges south. Take into account of Agazzis Glacial Lake last outburst c. 6,200 BCE raising sea levels significantly. The Atlantic climatic optimum c. 6,500 BCE needs considering while realizing it changes about 4,000 BCE during which time gardening has became significant in Iberian Peninsula. The Atlantic Maritime Culture ranged from c. 5,500 BCE into the middle Bronze Age. The sites range along the coast of Northern Spain and western French coast, around Ireland and the British Isles and into Scandinavia. I'm suggesting taking into account the weather periods and archaeological sites. I've seen several dates establishing the rise of R1b, several before Younger Dryas Catastrophe. And, archaeology knows about things that should really be considered. R1b just very well might taken refuge in the Iberian from the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) and Younger Dryas while R1a took refuge through the Balkans/Anatolia. Those Asians you mentioned may well have taken refuge form the Steppes through Afghanistan across northern Indian's most "green lands" into Burma/Myanmar. I got a hunch Basque descend from Hunter-gatherers taking refuge in the Iberian Peninsula. After all, the "Ghost Theory" of a unknown population across Eurasia takes in account of the peopling of Native Americans having R1b and the X hablogroups rather it be during optimum climate before the Younger Dryas or after 9,600 BCE. I'm suggesting Basque may very well be considered indigenous LGM hunter-gatherer refugees later with a connection that Maritime Culture so many with little archaeological knowledge know about. Please excuse my "wordy" and digressive nature. Thank you kindly.

do have a look at Maciamo Eupedia about Y-R1b - it could help you -

Piro Ilir
16-10-18, 23:30
According to our linguists, S.A. Starostin and I. Garshin, http://www.garshin.ru/linguistics/languages/dene-caucasian/index.html Basque language belongs to the Dene-Caucasian language group, alongside with other languages noted in the discussion (believe me, I read all 8 pages!), most of speakers of them belongs to the Y-DNA haplogroup C.

On the pictures:
1. Dene-Caucasian languages according to the "glosso-chronological" research,
2. Today's distribution of the C Y-DNA Haplogroup,
3. Modern people who has C Y-DNA Haplogroup,
4. A hunter from La Brania-Arintero (pre-historic Spain),
5. A hunter from Sunghir (pre-historic Russia).

98409841984298439844

Soviet era scholars are generally biased. Too politically motivated. Albanian and Albanians were considered of Caucasian stock by them. Basque is autochtonous, and has nothing to do with Caucasus, at least since hunter gatherings times.

Angela
17-02-19, 02:55
I talk loudly, and write the same way!!!������

TURN DOWN THE VOLUME!

Was that loud enough? You have no clue what you're talking about and you're disrupting threads with nonsense questions. Do some reading before you opine.

Some of what you're doing is tantamount to spamming.

Carlos
17-02-19, 04:52
There is a group of Basque scholars and the rest of Spain who defend that the Basque is the Iberian and the Iberian the Basque and that there could possibly be different ways of speaking it according to the distance between the territories. They have come to the conclusion that the Ibero came from a Altaic language, turkish or tungus, would be to define or the drift that would have taken in Iberia logically. I was reading these hypotheses the same day that in some of my personal oracles I had taken out myself a two and a half percent of ancestral Altaic and also some Altaic tungus, so I saw that hypothesis feasible.

Carlos
20-02-19, 16:13
I think that the way to see the Basques today in its origin, exceptionality, mysticism, mystery e.t.c. it comes from the hand of the German Nazis. When half of France is occupied by the Nazis a large number of German soldiers who were not from the SS occupy the area and lead a pleasant life between the French Basque country and Spanish, they are distracted, they go to eat, walks, sports, e.t.c. they have the necessary time to look at the Basque population and see in them a fact differentiated from the rest of the French or Spaniards, maybe because of the language, they are moments of leisure where they discover that the swastika is also used in some decorative motifs of the Basque country, The Nazis put the Basques on the map and in the view of the world with their ideas most often wrong. The publicity is great, when one is half on vacation is very happy and evidently in the north of Spain eats well as in many other places, but that publication lasts until our days, but good in the end that is another subject. Returning to the subject, perhaps the Nazis had the idea of ​​occupying the north of Spain until they reach Galicia, are moments in which there is a siesta of the Nazis with the Basque territories on both sides, but the Russians attack and the Nazis withdraw of the Basque area because they have to gather all their troops to counteract the Russians. It is a moment in which Basque nationalists, already spoiled by leisure Nazism, want to take advantage of the opportunity and send letters to Germany asking to be protected in the new order that would be established in Europe, Basque nationalism believed that Nazism would finally win, in finish. These letters asking for protection and exalting the similarities between the German and Basque people exist and are full of annotations on the margins made by the Germans even in mockery. For the Nazis it was a moment of leisure for the Basque Country but they had no interest beyond, what they could win or what they would have that interest with the Basques.


I think that in that Nazi leisure advertising of the moment and perhaps because of their ideas of occupying the north of Spain, for what they were interested in staying in a friendly way in the Basque part of Spain without raising too many suspicions before Franco is where such an exaggerated vision resides of exceptionality with the Basques.

If they agree, click like

Tamakore
14-09-19, 13:56
The interesting thing about Basque language and culture is that it's the exception that proves the rule. It seems to have an ability to withstand linguistic "steamrollers" that is unique, in Europe at least.

Perhaps the first linguistic steamroller that the Basque language survived was associated with the first farmers who arrived in Iberia via the Mediterranean route. These farmers would have a spoken a language related to languages in the Near East from whence they came (something Hamo-Semitic? Elamo-Dravidian?). Even those who speculate about early language families associated with the spread of farming, such as Nostratic, do not try to include Basque in their super-family, it's just too different. On this basis I'm assuming that Basque pre-dates farming in Western Europe.

Basque may even pre-date the Mesolithic expansion from South East Europe after the last Ice Age. Perhaps Basque descends from a language spoken by the Magdalenians who originated in Iberia 19,000 years ago. If so, the Mesolithic linguistic steamroller could be the first they resisted.

Another linguistic steamroller was that associated with the Bell Beakers bringing the earliest Indo-European languages to Western Europe. Perhaps the Bell Beakers spoke proto-Italo-Celtic. Whatever they spoke, it was an Indo-European language that Basque withstood.

Then there was the Iron Age expansion of Celtic languages over much of Western Europe. There may have been other non-Celtic languages in Iberia that resisted the Iron Age Celts, but if so they eventually died out, since Basque is the only pre-Iron Age language that survives. Next came the Roman steamroller, and as a result most of the people in continental Western Europe colonized by the Romans speak a Latin language today. Again, Basque stands out as an exception. Since Roman times Basques have continued to resist attempts to assimilate them and wipe out their language, although it seems that the Basque speaking region has been reduced in size over the centuries.

So what gives the Basque language this unique ability to defy the rule that conquerors tend to impose their language on the conquered? Some might point to the Pyrenees as a mountain refuge where Basques could retreat when under attack and keep their language alive. This might have been one factor, but there are other mountain ranges in Europe where no pre-Indo-European languages survive. My theory is that Basque culture had some way of absorbing invaders and converting some of the male elites among the invaders to the Basque language. I don't know how this happened, but Basques have a rich tradition of oral poetry. Perhaps instead of pointless resistance, the Basques seduced invaders with the beauty of their culture and their women. Making love not war, with a welcoming and hospitable attitude. Even their attitude towards the Nazi invaders might be an example of this cultural difference.

I'm only speculating, but this would explain how the Basques became R1b. They welcomed and seduced invaders, absorbing them into their culture, language and gene pool. While Basques are genetically distinctive in some ways, neither their Y haplogroups nor their mtDNA haplogroups reflect pre-Neolithic Spain or France. Genetically they are probably now quite different from the people who spoke proto-Basque thousands of years ago, but the language has survived due to unique features of Basque culture.

JacobP
18-09-19, 20:02
I think Iberia was the most populated place in Europe at the time of IE migrations into europe because de glaciations. And I think R1a was IE, R1b was Iberian mutation on R1a. So R1a cames to Iberia several time before the IE biggest migration waves.
Well...haplogroups don't exactly work that way.R1b is a seperate haplogroup from R1a,not a mutation,they just happen to be related.The peoples who carried the R1b hg. predate the IE expansion into europe,yet at the exact same time,the IE people carried both R1b and R1a hgs.The only difference being that these were two different subgroups of the R1b hg.One,which was carried by the pre-IE people of iberia,and the other one being carried by the IEs.

CrazyDonkey
18-09-19, 22:03
They carry the R1b-clade not associated with Indo-Europeans/Yamnaya.

According to Maciamo's map: P312<--L11<--L51<--L23<--M269 (Indo-Europeans/Yamnaya)

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml

Osmond
28-09-19, 09:36
I think that the way to see the Basques today in its origin, exceptionality, mysticism, mystery e.t.c. it comes from the hand of the German Nazis. When half of France is occupied by the Nazis a large number of German soldiers who were not from the SS occupy the area and lead a pleasant life between the French Basque country and Spanish, they are distracted, they go to eat, walks, sports, e.t.c. they have the necessary time to look at the Basque population and see in them a fact differentiated from the rest of the French or Spaniards, maybe because of the language, they are moments of leisure where they discover that the swastika is also used in some decorative motifs of the Basque country, The Nazis put the Basques on the map and in the view of the world with their ideas most often wrong. The publicity is great, when one is half on vacation is very happy and evidently in the north of Spain eats well as in many other places, but that publication lasts until our days, but good in the end that is another subject. Returning to the subject, perhaps the Nazis had the idea of ​​occupying the north of Spain until they reach Galicia, are moments in which there is a siesta of the Nazis with the Basque territories on both sides, but the Russians attack and the Nazis withdraw of the Basque area because they have to gather all their troops to counteract the Russians. It is a moment in which Basque nationalists, already spoiled by leisure Nazism, want to take advantage of the opportunity and send letters to Germany asking to be protected in the new order that would be established in Europe, Basque nationalism believed that Nazism would finally win, in finish. These letters asking for protection and exalting the similarities between the German and Basque people exist and are full of annotations on the margins made by the Germans even in mockery. For the Nazis it was a moment of leisure for the Basque Country but they had no interest beyond, what they could win or what they would have that interest with the Basques.


I think that in that Nazi leisure advertising of the moment and perhaps because of their ideas of occupying the north of Spain, for what they were interested in staying in a friendly way in the Basque part of Spain without raising too many suspicions before Franco is where such an exaggerated vision resides of exceptionality with the Basques.

If they agree, click like Huh? I always thought Nazi Germany disliked the Basque people. Didn't they once bomb Gipuzkoa and/or some other areas of Basque country? Also, Nazi Germany and Franco's Spain were allies in the Spanish civil war. So would that not mean the Germans were enemies of the Basques? I had always heard this, before.

Also, the Basques and Scandinavian Germans (or Nordic's) always had a rivalry or long grudge in Europe; Spanning multiple centuries, as well. For a while, it was possible to legally kill a human being in Iceland as long as that human being was of Basque ancestry and nothing else. Iceland only recently removed that bizarre freedom. (In other words; It was legal to kill people of Basque heritage in Iceland, until recently.)

firetown
03-05-20, 20:19
So what gives the Basque language this unique ability to defy the rule that conquerors tend to impose their language on the conquered? Some might point to the Pyrenees as a mountain refuge where Basques could retreat when under attack and keep their language alive. This might have been one factor, but there are other mountain ranges in Europe where no pre-Indo-European languages survive. My theory is that Basque culture had some way of absorbing invaders and converting some of the male elites among the invaders to the Basque language. I don't know how this happened, but Basques have a rich tradition of oral poetry. Perhaps instead of pointless resistance, the Basques seduced invaders with the beauty of their culture and their women. Making love not war, with a welcoming and hospitable attitude. Even their attitude towards the Nazi invaders might be an example of this cultural difference.


I think it's much more simple than that. The invaders produced offspring, the Basque women brought them up without much presence of the fathers.


I'm only speculating, but this would explain how the Basques became R1b. They welcomed and seduced invaders, absorbing them into their culture, language and gene pool. While Basques are genetically distinctive in some ways, neither their Y haplogroups nor their mtDNA haplogroups reflect pre-Neolithic Spain or France. Genetically they are probably now quite different from the people who spoke proto-Basque thousands of years ago, but the language has survived due to unique features of Basque culture.

I don't see the seductions part. They slaughtered the Basque men and took the women. You make it sound very romantic.

Progon
03-05-20, 20:21
What if they do carry the language of R1b (Iberians spoke non IE and had plenty of R1b as well), what if the other R1b clades got Indo-Europeanized by CHG migrants from South? We should not forget that David Reich thinks the origin of PIE is South Caucasus.

firetown
03-05-20, 20:41
What if they do carry the language of R1b (Iberians spoke non IE and had plenty of R1b as well), what if the other R1b clades got Indo-Europeanized by CHG migrants from South? We should not forget that David Reich thinks the origin of PIE is South Caucasus.
Y-DNA G presence in Proto-Basques does indicate Caucasus ancestry.

Carlos
03-05-20, 20:45
Huh? I always thought Nazi Germany disliked the Basque people. Didn't they once bomb Gipuzkoa and/or some other areas of Basque country? Also, Nazi Germany and Franco's Spain were allies in the Spanish civil war. So would that not mean the Germans were enemies of the Basques? I had always heard this, before.

Also, the Basques and Scandinavian Germans (or Nordic's) always had a rivalry or long grudge in Europe; Spanning multiple centuries, as well. For a while, it was possible to legally kill a human being in Iceland as long as that human being was of Basque ancestry and nothing else. Iceland only recently removed that bizarre freedom. (In other words; It was legal to kill people of Basque heritage in Iceland, until recently.)


https://verne.elpais.com/verne/2015/04/29/articulo/1430289393_692828.html

Well it's true, go.

Pretty savagery

Carlos
03-05-20, 21:12
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EscGfzvE99c/Xq8WzA8itzI/AAAAAAAADoM/LGLwW2ZACfEbXpF_O04BvV4qiKZDz6G0QCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/RoscoDNAyJ.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-4Yz7phEa4kM/Xq8WuOvltRI/AAAAAAAADoI/NnuCdMiJQ_QO5wCzb9YDAPyGEoYaCst-QCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/PurezaVasca.jpeg

Other ancient Basque samples even get Carthaginian. And ilergetes, El Argar, Vettones (Cogotas), La Loma del Puerco, and all of them obtain vascones and the vascones obtain them.


What motorcycle have you wanted to sell with the vascones? Where was the wall?


Some of the results of this Basque sample

246. Early Medieval Andalusia (760 AD) ..... 22.96 - I3585 -
235. Carthago Al-Andalus Alhama de Granada (1200 AD) ..... 22.18 - I7457
225. Portuguese Cordoba Caliphate (1050 AD) ..... 21.96 - I12514 -
219. Iberian Cordoba Caliphate (1050 AD) ..... 21.74 - I7498
180. Medieval Iberian (580 AD) ..... 20.45 - CL23
161. Tartessian Archaic Andalusia (600 BC) ..... 19.22 - I12561
159. Latin Aristocrat Castel di Decima (800 BC) ..... 19.15 - R1016 -
155. Iberian El Argar Bronze Age (1500 BC) ..... 18.96 - I8136
154. Latin Tribe Ardea (650 BC) ..... 18.83 - R851 -
141. Portugal Middle Bronze Age (1580 BC) ..... 18.03 - MonteGato104
139. Bronze Age Loma del Puerco (1800 BC) ..... 17.97 - I7162 -
138. Etruscan Civitavecchia (650 BC) ..... 17.97 - R473 -

etc

firetown
03-05-20, 21:16
https://verne.elpais.com/verne/2015/04/29/articulo/1430289393_692828.html

Well it's true, go.

Pretty savagery

That's probably why they waited so long to get rid of the law knowing it would be brought up in the news.

celtiberian-II
25-10-20, 20:18
Huh? I always thought Nazi Germany disliked the Basque people. Didn't they once bomb Gipuzkoa and/or some other areas of Basque country?

Also, Nazi Germany and Franco's Spain were allies in the Spanish civil war. So would that not mean the Germans were enemies of the Basques? I had always heard this, before.



The Nazi army bomb Guipuzkoa, Barcelona, Madrid, Valencia and many other places in Spain.
Nazi and Franco's troops were allies against the Spanish people. Very sad.

kmak
25-10-20, 20:56
I think that R1b is not originally Proto-IE but IEized by R1a peoples. R1b originally speak grandfather of Proto-Vasconic or grandfather of Proto-Vasconic like languages.

celtiberian-II
25-10-20, 21:45
In a PNAS article of 2015, the authors presented the first genome-wide sequence data from eight individuals associated with archaeological remains from Early European farming cultures in the El Portalón cave (Atapuerca, Spain) and showed the greatest genetic affinity to Basques. The individuals presented y hg H2 and I2a2a and could have spoken a non–Indo-European language.
In 2017 another Nature article published that R1b-DF27 (a Proto-Italo-Celto-Germanic subclade) was originated in NE Iberia about 2200 BC. R1b-DF27 is present in 40% of Iberian population and in 70% of Basques.
This is in agreement with your post, Maciamo.
My question is how a population mostly R1b-DF27 can present a high affinity to H2 and I2a2a individuals? and How is measured this affinity? Obviously, the patrilineal dna is not used in this affinity measure.

celtiberian-II
28-10-20, 20:48
"So Basque never became R1b; Basque always was R1b, just everybody else became IE." Now, take in account Younger Dryas Event and refuges south. Take into account of Agazzis Glacial Lake last outburst c. 6,200 BCE raising sea levels significantly. The Atlantic climatic optimum c. 6,500 BCE needs considering while realizing it changes about 4,000 BCE during which time gardening has became significant in Iberian Peninsula. The Atlantic Maritime Culture ranged from c. 5,500 BCE into the middle Bronze Age. The sites range along the coast of Northern Spain and western French coast, around Ireland and the British Isles and into Scandinavia. I'm suggesting taking into account the weather periods and archaeological sites. I've seen several dates establishing the rise of R1b, several before Younger Dryas Catastrophe. And, archaeology knows about things that should really be considered. R1b just very well might taken refuge in the Iberian from the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) and Younger Dryas while R1a took refuge through the Balkans/Anatolia. Those Asians you mentioned may well have taken refuge form the Steppes through Afghanistan across northern Indian's most "green lands" into Burma/Myanmar. I got a hunch Basque descend from Hunter-gatherers taking refuge in the Iberian Peninsula. After all, the "Ghost Theory" of a unknown population across Eurasia takes in account of the peopling of Native Americans having R1b and the X hablogroups rather it be during optimum climate before the Younger Dryas or after 9,600 BCE. I'm suggesting Basque may very well be considered indigenous LGM hunter-gatherer refugees later with a connection that Maritime Culture so many with little archaeological knowledge know about. Please excuse my "wordy" and digressive nature. Thank you kindly.

Hello Conastoga. Basques show the greatest genetic affinity to early neolithic farmers individuals in the El Portalón cave (Atapuerca, Spain). These farmers mixed with local hunter-gatherers, in any case their y haplogroups were not R1b. In the Bronze Age, 2200 BCE, the R1b-DF27 appeared in the peninsula and now is present in 40% in Iberian populations and up to 70% in Basques.

Questions
22-11-20, 23:57
It was the Romanisation that eventually obliterated Iberian language around the 2nd century.
I think it is very possible that all Iberia and Southwest France, and not just the Basques, kept their original Neolithic languages following the Bronze Age Indo-European invasions.
They would have concentrated on ruling their new land and enjoying their privileges, and left the education of their offspring to the (local) women.
After one, or a few, generation(s) their IE language would have completed disappeared, leaving only the previous Neolithic languages. It is possible, and even expected, that a few loanwords from (Proto-)Celtic entered the non-IE languages of Iberia and Southwest France to fill the gaps in vocabulary for new Bronze Age technologies brought by the Indo-Europeans. This is exactly what we see in the modern Basque vocabulary. I expect that the same happened to all other non-IE languages of the peninsula in the Bronze Age.
"Now, as the legends represent Latiniis, the eponym of the Latini, as king of the Aborigines, it follows that the Latini were Ligurians ... These are the people known to the Roman writers as Ligures, and to the Greeks as Ligyes. As they occupy the same mountainous area as that assigned to the Aborigines by Dionysius, and as Philistus of Syracuse says that the Ligyes were expelled from their homes by the Umbrians, there is no doubt that the Aborigines of Dionysius and Cato are none other than the Ligyes or Ligurians of Philistus and other writers. … Thus according to Roman tradition the Latini were the Aborigines, or, in other words, Ligurians, a tradition of great significance in view of the fact that the populous Romanus spoke not lingua Romana, but lingua Latina. … the language of the Roman empire, was the tongue not of the Sabine conquerers, but of their Plebeian subjects, in other words that Latin is Ligurian. ... Again, although it has hitherto been universally held that the Iberians spoke a non-Aryan tongue, because the Basques who occupy a portion of North-West Spain still continue to do so, yet when we come to examine the evidence it is more probable that the Iberians properly so called, who bordered on the Ligurians in North-Eastem Spain and who are said to have extended at one time as far north as the Loire, did not differ essentially from the Ligurians. For instance, we have just seen that proper names in -sco and -co are beyond all doubt essentially Indo-European suffixes in the Ligurian parts of France and over all Upper and Central Italy. But when we turn to ancient Spain we are confronted with the same suffixes and the closely allied -con- in many of the most famous place-names; e.g. Osca (mod. Huesca) Malaca (Malaga), Tarraco (Tarragona) whilst the same appears in the adjective asturcones, the ancient native name for the horses of Asturia."--Ridgeway, Who Were The Romans?
"Professor Niccolucci described some alleged Ligurian crania, which seemed to show them to have been a round-headed people, and hence, the Professor inferred, of "Turanian" origin. But Professor Sergi insists that the said skulls were only those of modern Modenese, and neither ancient nor Ligurian. His own authentic series of Ligurian skulls proves them, on the contrary, to have been long-headed, with narrow noses, orthognathic"--Ligurians, Iberians, and Siculi; Science, Current Notes on Anthropology, 1892.
"Ligurian tribes, now shorn, in ancient days
First of the long-haired nations, on whose necks.
Once flowed the auburn locks in pride supreme."
--Lucan, Pharsalia
The Sabines seem to have been Celtic people, making the Romans Celtic by race. Which could clear up a whole bunch of questions, yes? The other question is Basque. The Basque are a disharmonious people with Brachycephalic skulls and Dolichocephalic faces, signifying a mixed race. Some of them claim they are the Cro-Magnons... but the C-M had Dolichocephalic skulls and Brachycephalic faces... the opposite of what the Basques have. In both cases, the skull shape had the disharmonic face pasted onto it, so to speak.
Britain first had long-barrows long-skulls. Round skulls came with the Celts. In fact, saying Britain is somehow a Basque plantation, but failing to show any evidence of the Basque language in place-names or inscriptions...
I don't know if you've got threads on Minoan DNA being mtDNA H and I, and YDNA R1b (along with the inevitable overlord-R1a). But if Crete had European DNA, and Ligurians had European DNA... and both DNAs occupy that small slice where the Basques showed up... doesn't it make more sense to assume that H and R1b are indigenous DNA in Spain? Especially since the women never made the trip and therefore never brought H... and would never have taught their children the foreign Basque language... this is how language works. !!!
(The Turanian Basque language must have been imposed upon a small area of indigenous non-Basque people during one of the peninsular draughts? Isn't it really an assumption that the Basque-speakers are originally Basque by race? Languages can be learned.)
Getting back to Britain and its people, we know that inscriptions in Latin were commonplace all over the south of Britain. Some say that the tribal names were just Celtic with Latin endings. I highly doubt that's true. The Cymry traditions tell us they came from the Loire and Armorica. The Loire, as Dawkins pointed out long ago, is the Lloegrians... from whence came the name Lloegrwys to Britain. Since these people had not only the same affinity for writing tombstones in Latin, and had a tribe of the Latin Ligures controlling what is now called England proper, is it really a stretch to think that the original people of Britain were Ligurians?
=======
Now, since the Basques are proven to be Steppe People, not the Cro-Magnons or Semites, or any other fanciful notion their world-conquerering historiography would have them to be... And since R1b came from the steppes... And since the Basque language is Turanian-Steppe Language... this National Geographic article "A study of 8,000 years of genetics from Spain and Portugal yields a surprisingly complex picture of the inhabitants' ancestry," of March 2019, can forever end the mystery of who the Basques are. They are related to the other Steppe people who are called Germans and Slavics.

So much for their indegenous claims. The fact that their famous historian tells us they have no art, just as the Jews don't, in and of itself proves that the Basques are the polar opposites of the Cro-Magnons, in whose lands they are currently squatting. Why is it that it never fails to be what the invaders do? They move in, supposedly murder every man and manchild, steal their women and their homes, and begin to pretend that they are indigenes.

And since the Steppe people are round-heads, they never killed off all the long-headed men, or the type of the women are taking the land back from the invaders. If anything else is true, the Steppe men drove the immigration of long-heads we find in Britain's long-barrows. We see it time after time, in Britain... the Steppe men move in... don't decimate the male population, and the indigenes move into the mountains and onto rocky promontaries overlooking the Ocean.

The Basques became the Jesuits who murdered people that didn't believe Catholic Dogma. These Cathars and Albiginses and Huguenots were not wiped out either. But the Basques who were witches and killed infants and were cannibals seem to have been related to those called Anthrophagi who lived next to Poland, which both Pliny and Herodotus talk about. They dressed like Scythians but spoke a different language. The Irish say they are Scythians. Strabo says the Irish were cannibals. Yes, it is ancient history, and they probably don't do it anymore. But this speaks to the unbroken chain of Steppe people with their Shamanism, etc.

Questions
23-11-20, 21:57
Greek colonists from Phocaea founded the colony of Massalia
According to the legend, the Greeks married into the family of the Ligurian woman who chose that Greek as her husband. For this to have happened, Massalia must already have been in existence. This is especially true since the Nemeton of the Ligurians stood nearby.

Pi gman
26-11-20, 15:46
[QUOTE=Questions;615522]According to the legend, the Greeks married into the family of the Ligurian woman who chose that Greek as her husband. For this to have happened, Massalia must already have been in existence. This is

Thank you for your interest. My extensive research from Wikipedia tells me that:

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marseille)"Massalia, whose name was probably adapted from an existing language related to Ligurian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligurian_language_(ancient)),[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Marseille#cite_note-4) was the first Greek settlement in France.[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Marseille#cite_note-Marseille_city_break_guide-5) It was established within modern Marseille around 600 BC by colonists coming from Phocaea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaea) (now Foça (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fo%C3%A7a), in modern Turkey) on the Aegean (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_Sea) coast of Asia Minor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Minor). The connection between Massalia and the Phoceans is mentioned in Thucydides (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides)'s Peloponnesian War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Peloponnesian_War);[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Marseille#cite_note-FOOTNOTEDuch%C3%AAneContrucci199842-6) he notes that the Phocaean project was opposed by the Carthaginians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthaginians), whose fleet was defeated.[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Marseille#cite_note-7) The founding of Massalia has also been recorded as a legend. According to the legend, Protis (in Aristotle, Euxenes), a native of Phocae, while exploring for a new trading outpost or emporion to make his fortune, discovered the Mediterranean cove (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cove) of the Lacydon, fed by a freshwater stream and protected by two rocky promontories.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Marseille#cite_note-marseille1913-8) Protis was invited inland to a banquet held by the chief of the local Ligurian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligures) tribe, Nann, for suitors seeking the hand of his daughter Gyptis (in Aristotle, Petta) in marriage. At the end of the banquet, Gyptis presented the ceremonial cup of wine to Protis, indicating her unequivocal choice. Following their marriage, they moved to the hill just to the north of the Lacydon; and from this settlement grew Massalia.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Marseille#cite_note-marseille1913-8) Later, the natives would treacherously lay a plot to destroy the new colony, but the scheme was divulged and Conran, king of the natives, was killed in the ensuing battle.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Marseille#cite_note-9) Robb (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Robb) gives greater weight to the Gyptis story, though he notes that the tradition was to offer water, not wine, to signal the choice of a marriage partner.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Marseille#cite_note-10) A second wave of colonists arrived in about 540, when Phocaea was destroyed by the Persians.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Marseille#cite_note-FOOTNOTEPalanque199041-11)"

"Marseille (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marseille), France (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France) was originally founded circa 600 BC as the Greek colony (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonies_in_antiquity) of Massalia and populated by Greeks from Phocaea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaea) (modern Foça (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fo%C3%A7a), Turkey (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey)). It became the preeminent Greek polis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polis) in the Hellenized (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenization) region of southern Gaul (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks_in_pre-Roman_Gaul).[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Marseille#cite_note-1) The city-state allied with the Roman Republic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Republic) against Carthage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthage) during the Second Punic War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Punic_War) (218-201 BC), retaining its independence and commercial empire throughout the western Mediterranean (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Mediterranean)even as Rome expanded into Western Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe) and North Africa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa). However, the city lost its independence following the Roman Siege of Massilia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Massilia) in 49 BC, during Caesar's Civil War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar%27s_Civil_War), in which Massalia sided with the exiled faction (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimates) at war with Julius Caesar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar)."

and

"Humans have inhabited Marseille and its environs for almost 30,000 years: palaeolithic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic) cave paintings (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_painting) in the underwater Cosquer Cave (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosquer_Cave) near the calanque of Morgiou date back to between 27,000 and 19,000 BC; and recent excavations near the railway station have unearthed neolithic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic) brick habitations from around 6000 BC.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Marseille#cite_note-2)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Marseille#cite_note-3)"

I am sure there are volumes of books in ancient libraries somewhere but I will not be reading them.

MOESAN
26-11-20, 17:05
"Now, as the legends represent Latiniis, the eponym of the Latini, as king of the Aborigines, it follows that the Latini were Ligurians ... These are the people known to the Roman writers as Ligures, and to the Greeks as Ligyes. As they occupy the same mountainous area as that assigned to the Aborigines by Dionysius, and as Philistus of Syracuse says that the Ligyes were expelled from their homes by the Umbrians, there is no doubt that the Aborigines of Dionysius and Cato are none other than the Ligyes or Ligurians of Philistus and other writers. … Thus according to Roman tradition the Latini were the Aborigines, or, in other words, Ligurians, a tradition of great significance in view of the fact that the populous Romanus spoke not lingua Romana, but lingua Latina. … the language of the Roman empire, was the tongue not of the Sabine conquerers, but of their Plebeian subjects, in other words that Latin is Ligurian. ... Again, although it has hitherto been universally held that the Iberians spoke a non-Aryan tongue, because the Basques who occupy a portion of North-West Spain still continue to do so, yet when we come to examine the evidence it is more probable that the Iberians properly so called, who bordered on the Ligurians in North-Eastem Spain and who are said to have extended at one time as far north as the Loire, did not differ essentially from the Ligurians. For instance, we have just seen that proper names in -sco and -co are beyond all doubt essentially Indo-European suffixes in the Ligurian parts of France and over all Upper and Central Italy. But when we turn to ancient Spain we are confronted with the same suffixes and the closely allied -con- in many of the most famous place-names; e.g. Osca (mod. Huesca) Malaca (Malaga), Tarraco (Tarragona) whilst the same appears in the adjective asturcones, the ancient native name for the horses of Asturia."--Ridgeway, Who Were The Romans?
"Professor Niccolucci described some alleged Ligurian crania, which seemed to show them to have been a round-headed people, and hence, the Professor inferred, of "Turanian" origin. But Professor Sergi insists that the said skulls were only those of modern Modenese, and neither ancient nor Ligurian. His own authentic series of Ligurian skulls proves them, on the contrary, to have been long-headed, with narrow noses, orthognathic"--Ligurians, Iberians, and Siculi; Science, Current Notes on Anthropology, 1892.
"Ligurian tribes, now shorn, in ancient days
First of the long-haired nations, on whose necks.
Once flowed the auburn locks in pride supreme."
--Lucan, Pharsalia
The Sabines seem to have been Celtic people, making the Romans Celtic by race. Which could clear up a whole bunch of questions, yes? The other question is Basque. The Basque are a disharmonious people with Brachycephalic skulls and Dolichocephalic faces, signifying a mixed race. Some of them claim they are the Cro-Magnons... but the C-M had Dolichocephalic skulls and Brachycephalic faces... the opposite of what the Basques have. In both cases, the skull shape had the disharmonic face pasted onto it, so to speak.
Britain first had long-barrows long-skulls. Round skulls came with the Celts. In fact, saying Britain is somehow a Basque plantation, but failing to show any evidence of the Basque language in place-names or inscriptions...
I don't know if you've got threads on Minoan DNA being mtDNA H and I, and YDNA R1b (along with the inevitable overlord-R1a). But if Crete had European DNA, and Ligurians had European DNA... and both DNAs occupy that small slice where the Basques showed up... doesn't it make more sense to assume that H and R1b are indigenous DNA in Spain? Especially since the women never made the trip and therefore never brought H... and would never have taught their children the foreign Basque language... this is how language works. !!!
(The Turanian Basque language must have been imposed upon a small area of indigenous non-Basque people during one of the peninsular draughts? Isn't it really an assumption that the Basque-speakers are originally Basque by race? Languages can be learned.)
Getting back to Britain and its people, we know that inscriptions in Latin were commonplace all over the south of Britain. Some say that the tribal names were just Celtic with Latin endings. I highly doubt that's true. The Cymry traditions tell us they came from the Loire and Armorica. The Loire, as Dawkins pointed out long ago, is the Lloegrians... from whence came the name Lloegrwys to Britain. Since these people had not only the same affinity for writing tombstones in Latin, and had a tribe of the Latin Ligures controlling what is now called England proper, is it really a stretch to think that the original people of Britain were Ligurians?

If I read well there is no more doubt that Ligurians spoke an I-E language. As I wrote in another post (to you) their language seems showing ties to both Celtic and Italic; I wonder if it is not of the same temporal wave which brought Lisutanian to Iberia and 'northwest IE' of the today benelux, a wave a bit earlier than the Celtic and Italic one.
I don' t know if 'latin' language is in fact strictly 'latin' by origin but it became quickly the language of Romans and Romanized, and was DISTINCT of Ligurian proper.
Let's not to put too much confidence into the terms 'aborigene' or 'autochtone' in ancient legends: they do'nt cover the same pop's according to diverse legends or authors. Every people is tempted to see itself as 'aborigne', with few exceptions.
The distinction by someones between 'Latin' and 'Roman' is not the proof of a very distinct nature of both languages, Latin and Roman being maybe urban and rural variants of the same Italic language?
Never heard of a Celtic origin of Sabins! And Sabins have not been the winners, because they have been submitted by Romans. The Italic nature of Latin or Rome Language is not debatted for I know.
Concerning foundations myths, don't forget old people were found of "honorable" origins and could have mixed their own half historical legends with other folks ones (previously present on their country, or even come later than them:cf the Scythes "origins" of Celts).

We can leave aside the diverse phenotypic descriptions of people when they are so simplistic and stereotyped. (BTW the CI of Basques were 78 to 80 (Spain) and 83 to 84 (France) in the 1940's, so far from the extreme 73 or 88 of certain European means of the time; and a few divergent features is not enough to distinguish deeply between two pop's.
That said, Basques (the topic) are supposed to have some metals names of their own, or at least not loaned from I-E languages. I don't know if it's true. Maybe their language is not so "autochtnous" as believed by someones.

Questions
28-11-20, 23:01
[QUOTE=Questions;615522]According to the legend, the Greeks married into the family of the Ligurian woman who chose that Greek as her husband. For this to have happened, Massalia must already have been in existence. This is

Thank you for your interest. My extensive research from Wikipedia

I am sure there are volumes of books in ancient libraries somewhere but I will not be reading them.[/SIZE][/SUP]

For the woman to have chosen her husband, she must have been in a matriarchal society. This means that her husband is not the owner of her property. Matriarchy was in existence wherever there was no Steppe-patriarchy imposed at a later date. To call the city a Ligurian name means that the Greeks didn't create it, the Latin-speaking Ligurians did.

Where else do we get our histories of today, if we place no trust upon what the ancients saw with their own eyes? If you won't be reading ancient books, hopefully you can trust the spin the modernists puts on what ancient authors they read. I'm not that trusting: I go to the source.


Your wikipedia says this about Nemeton:

"Pliny and Lucan wrote that druids did not meet in stone temples or other constructions, but in sacred groves of trees. In his Pharsalia Lucan described such a grove near Massilia in dramatic terms more designed to evoke horror among his Roman hearers than meant as proper natural history:

'no bird nested in the nemeton, nor did any animal lurk nearby; the leaves constantly shivered though no breeze stirred. Altars stood in its midst, and the images of the gods. Every tree was stained with sacrificial blood. the very earth groaned, dead yews revived; unconsumed trees were surrounded with flame, and huge serpents twined round the oaks. The people feared to approach the grove, and even the priest would not walk there at midday or midnight lest he should then meet its divine guardian.'"


Unknowing people are tempted to believe that the Druids were Celts. Au contraire!

"so we must pass on to the non-Celtic natives, who had another religion, namely, druidism, which may be surmised to have had its origin among them."--Rhys, Celtic Britain


Cook, "Zeus, Jupiter and the Oak," places the Druid's sacred grove in Pelasgian lands, and Caesar tells us the Druids used the Greek letters. Pelasgians came to partner the Ligurian Aborigines in their fight against the Celts in Italy.

MOESAN
04-12-20, 16:00
[QUOTE=Pi gman;615621]
For the woman to have chosen her husband, she must have been in a matriarchal society. This means that her husband is not the owner of her property. Matriarchy was in existence wherever there was no Steppe-patriarchy imposed at a later date. To call the city a Ligurian name means that the Greeks didn't create it, the Latin-speaking Ligurians did.
Where else do we get our histories of today, if we place no trust upon what the ancients saw with their own eyes? If you won't be reading ancient books, hopefully you can trust the spin the modernists puts on what ancient authors they read. I'm not that trusting: I go to the source.
Your wikipedia says this about Nemeton:
"Pliny and Lucan wrote that druids did not meet in stone temples or other constructions, but in sacred groves of trees. In his Pharsalia Lucan described such a grove near Massilia in dramatic terms more designed to evoke horror among his Roman hearers than meant as proper natural history:
'no bird nested in the nemeton, nor did any animal lurk nearby; the leaves constantly shivered though no breeze stirred. Altars stood in its midst, and the images of the gods. Every tree was stained with sacrificial blood. the very earth groaned, dead yews revived; unconsumed trees were surrounded with flame, and huge serpents twined round the oaks. The people feared to approach the grove, and even the priest would not walk there at midday or midnight lest he should then meet its divine guardian.'"
Unknowing people are tempted to believe that the Druids were Celts. Au contraire!
"so we must pass on to the non-Celtic natives, who had another religion, namely, druidism, which may be surmised to have had its origin among them."--Rhys, Celtic Britain
Cook, "Zeus, Jupiter and the Oak," places the Druid's sacred grove in Pelasgian lands, and Caesar tells us the Druids used the Greek letters. Pelasgians came to partner the Ligurian Aborigines in their fight against the Celts in Italy.

Because ancients never confused things? Are you believing every ancient story or even "report" is God 's truth? It's moderns who are obliged to sift the contradictory matter gathered in ancient texts.
Concerning the Druids and their role in the society, the ancient authors don't share the same opinions, Greeks either Romans. It seems Julius Caesar made of them an ubiquitous part of the Celtic intellectual elite, forgotting Bards and Vates, in opposition to a lot of ancient Greeks reports. Concerning the term 'druid', it seems Celtic, from *dru-/drew- or *deorw- (two forms of same root meaning "tree" before taking the meaning of "oak", one form more abstract ~= "strong", "solid", "full of life", the other more concrete, + *-wid ("to see" >> "to know"); translation more or less accepted: "very knowledged with a living mighty knowledge".
Nothing prevents us to think that Celts loaned some aspects of the Ligurians religion, Celts are in a big part children of a pop "cousin" to Ligurians. We know also Druids have had many contacts with Greek philosophs. But nothing in that back your strange affirmations.

MOESAN
04-12-20, 16:08
I add that the "religious" role of the Druids and the part taken by them in sacrifices is object of debates.