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View Full Version : What are the origins of I1-Z140 and I1-L338 in the British Isles?



spruithean
10-02-13, 20:23
This may seem obvious to some. But when I read up on all of this I end up just slamming my head into the table.

I know I1-Z140 & I1-L338 most likely can be grouped with invaders like Angles, Saxons and Jutes and other various Germanic groups but are there other possibilities and perhaps other groups that could have brought these haplogroups to Britain?

I just need to get my bearings again with Genetic genealogy and the like.

Thanks for any responses.

sparkey
10-02-13, 23:39
L338+ is too young (2000 YBP-ish) to link with anybody much more ancient than the Anglo-Saxons in the context of Britain. And considering its West Germanic-looking modern distribution (http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/haplotypes/maps/66/), who else could fit? Maybe the Belgae, but that wouldn't explain some of the more eastern samples, and it also doesn't fit how the Belgae were distributed in Britain. Also, its closest cousin clades all look Germanic.

Usually haplogroups aren't as clear cut as this.

spruithean
11-02-13, 00:10
L338+ is too young (2000 YBP-ish) to link with anybody much more ancient than the Anglo-Saxons in the context of Britain. And considering its West Germanic-looking modern distribution, who else could fit? Maybe the Belgae, but that wouldn't explain some of the more eastern samples, and it also doesn't fit how the Belgae were distributed in Britain. Also, its closest cousin clades all look Germanic.

Usually haplogroups aren't as clear cut as this.

Thanks for the reply!

I see how that makes more sense than some of the other possibilities I've seen online with L338 or some associate group being given a homeland in Britain.

nordicfoyer
11-02-13, 14:54
Spruithean, regarding Z140 you should also consider Danish Vikings. It looks like Z140 had an important tie to Jutland/Denmark around 700 A.D.

spruithean
12-02-13, 01:12
Nordicfoyer, I do have quite a few matches in Denmark. In general though with the markers I have tested I don't have very many close matches outside of the British Isles (which can get frustrating). So I look to Continental sources.

Sparkey, are I1-Z140 and I1-L338 both limited to Angles-Saxons-Jutes-Frisians or are the Danes included in this (as Nordicfoyer mentioned)?

sparkey
12-02-13, 01:20
Nordicfoyer, I do have quite a few matches in Denmark. In general though with the markers I have tested I don't have very many close matches outside of the British Isles (which can get frustrating). So I look to Continental sources.

Sparkey, are I1-Z140 and I1-L338 both limited to Angles-Saxons-Jutes-Frisians or are the Danes included in this?

I would include the Danes, and I would accept that they are the second most likely group behind the Anglo-Saxons (Jutes, etc.). However, if it was primarily introduced by the Danes, I would expect a greater concentration around York instead of greater concentrations in Southern England and the Scottish Lowlands.

spruithean
12-02-13, 02:16
I would include the Danes, and I would accept that they are the second most likely group behind the Anglo-Saxons (Jutes, etc.). However, if it was primarily introduced by the Danes, I would expect a greater concentration around York instead of greater concentrations in Southern England and the Scottish Lowlands.

This includes both L338+ and Z140+?

Hmm. Interesting the FTNA I1 project page when looking at the various I1-Z140 groups it seems they are all over Europe in my eyes.Probably doesn't help that there isn't a way to see them all together on that website.

Are there any websites that have compiled all the markers for Z140 & L338? To see them all at once?

nordicfoyer
12-02-13, 04:10
Spruithean, you are spot on about Z140+ having such a wide dispersal rate. I've studied this in depth, and realized the maps make sense when you factor in this branch's affinity for boat travel. Check out the p.m. I sent you... Sparkey has the best read on y-haplogroups that I've seen on this site (or any other site actually). He is especially attuned to haplogroup I, so you're in good hands listening to his comments.

And don't forget, your forefathers could have been Danes, and then later joined in with the Saxons or Angles. I'm thinking tribal alliances were more fluid than we currently consider.

spruithean
12-02-13, 06:03
Spruithean, you are spot on about Z140+ having such a wide dispersal rate. I've studied this in depth, and realized the maps make sense when you factor in this branches affinity for boat travel. Check out the p.m. I sent you... Sparkey has the best read on y-haplogroups that I've seen on this site (or any other site actually). He is especially attuned to haplogroup I, so you're in good hands listening to his comments.

And don't forget, your forefathers could have been Danes, and then later joined in with the Saxons or Angles. I'm thinking tribal alliances were more fluid than we currently consider.

I figured boat travel had to play a part in this. I look forward to reading more on this website.

Yes they could've been Danes who joined with the Anglo-Saxons or the other way around.

spruithean
12-02-13, 18:51
I figured boat travel had to play a part in this. I look forward to reading more on this website.

Yes they could've been Danes who joined with the Anglo-Saxons or the other way around.

I do seem to fit into Terry Robbs "I1-AAB" cluster. I'm not sure what that means. I notice Nordtvedt and Robb have different explanations and dates used on their charts.

Oh the pondering...

spruithean
04-03-13, 19:08
What about the I1-F2642 clade that seems to be emerging?

Is that widespread over Europe? Is it also overwhelmingly Germanic?

nordicfoyer
05-03-13, 07:16
This includes both L338+ and Z140+?

Hmm. Interesting the FTNA I1 project page when looking at the various I1-Z140 groups it seems they are all over Europe in my eyes.Probably doesn't help that there isn't a way to see them all together on that website.

Are there any websites that have compiled all the markers for Z140 & L338? To see them all at once?

Spruithean, I found an interesting map illustrating Old Norse languages... the areas in orange match up nicely with Z140+ so far. I've found a family from England that has Z140+ flagged on their surname website and it's a close match. (I think I pm'ed you the site, but let me know if you don't have it.) The catch is their family site map only covers England and not the Continent. I've read that both France and Denmark have less y-DNA results than other Western nations (uncertain of the reasoning), but as more of the data points come in I'm confident the French and Danish maps will also correlate...https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/North_sea_languages_900.png

nordicfoyer
05-03-13, 07:36
Here are the notes pertaining to the map:

*The approximate extent of Old Norse and related language in the early 900's around the North Sea.

Red= Old West Norse
Orange= Old East Norse
Green= other Germanic languages with which Old Norse still retained some mutual intelligibility

Found it reading about the English channel.

nordicfoyer
05-03-13, 08:08
The Z140+ map on that family site didn't have the surname attached so I tried to provide it as well, but it won't link for some reason... this site now won't let me delete my entire entry-- therefore you have to read this explanation.

nordicfoyer
06-03-13, 23:54
And then there's this:http://www.eupedia.com/forum/I1a%20gradient.png (http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/I1_Y-DNA.htm)

Hm, I was trying to post a map of I1 DYS 455= 8 and this popped up. I'm not having much luck linking maps lately. The DYS 455= 8 map looks to have an epicenter near Otta/Tynset area of Norway. What this distribution means I have no idea. Maybe an interesting tie to centralish Norway (for Z 140+?)... maybe nothing at all.

nordicfoyer
07-03-13, 01:04
Here's the most expansive map of Z 140+ I could find. Keep in mind France and Denmark are known for their lack of participation...http://www.eupedia.com/forum/I1a%20gradient.png (http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/I1_Y-DNA.htm)

Posting of maps isn't happening today folks. Sorry about that.

tjlowery87
07-03-13, 01:16
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/317706_2443511247096_296264300_n.jpg

spruithean
07-03-13, 03:31
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/317706_2443511247096_296264300_n.jpg

I fit with the AAB group and seem to match up with the AABA subgroup. This map confuses me.

nordicfoyer
07-03-13, 05:21
I fit with the AAB group and seem to match up with the AABA subgroup. This map confuses me.

Well if you were in the ABBA group that would put you directly into Sweden believe it or not... Stockholm actually. The ABBA group got a fairly late start compared to some of the others we've discussed on this thread. But of course if you were in ABBA than you would also probably be fluent in pop ballads from the 70's and get to share a stage with two of the sexiest ladies to ever set foot on this planet-- Agneta Faltsog and Anni Lyngstad.

I'm sorry Spruithean, I literally could-not-resist. That was a slow pitch right through the stike zone! :)
The map threw me for a bit of loop too, don't feel bad.

spruithean
07-03-13, 05:44
Well if you were in the ABBA group that would put you directly into Sweden believe it or not... Stockholm actually. The ABBA group got a fairly late start compared to some of the others we've discussed on this thread. But of course if you were in ABBA than you would also probably be fluent in pop ballads from the 70's and get to share a stage with two of the sexiest ladies to ever set foot on this planet-- Agneta Faltsog and Anni Lyngstad.

I'm sorry Spruithean, I literally could-not-resist. That was a slow pitch right through the stike zone! :)
The map threw me for a bit of loop too, don't feel bad.

Haha. I've seen other images similar to these on the Haplogroup I1 page on facebook and ancestry. Isn't it Terry Robb that has said that AAB(A,B) is Celtic when found in the Isles?

I've heard no one else speak of those haplotypes as "Celtic".

tjlowery87
07-03-13, 05:47
would that be i1 as4(i got this off the facebook page)

tjlowery87
07-03-13, 05:57
i dont think it is celtic .............just my opioun

nordicfoyer
07-03-13, 06:21
Haha. I've seen other images similar to these on the Haplogroup I1 page on facebook and ancestry. Isn't it Terry Robb that has said that AAB(A,B) is Celtic when found in the Isles?

I've heard no one else speak of those haplotypes as "Celtic".

Well, that's an excellent question. Now we are getting into the meta-myth of some of the first Irish settlers. I would recommend researching a group called the Fir Bolg-- do a google or bing image search and see if these characters might look familiar. Ring a bell? Could Fir Bolg be proto hg I, I1 or I2? I don't know, but it sure is fun to speculate!

But in my opinion, no I wouldn't call the first waves of hg I (either I1 or I2) that made it onto the Islands Celtic. Sure they now probably have a more "Celtic" autosomal make-up than an I1 member found in say Sweden or Finland... but in my world view hg R (really R1b) owns the true Celtic title.

spruithean
07-03-13, 06:30
would that be i1 as4(i got this off the facebook page)

I'm not sure. You would have to compare STRs to find your Terry Robb group. YSearch used to have some of the examples, but ysearch is down... permanently.

Terry Robb does have a branch finder on his website. My branch in his system seems common in the weirdest places.


Well, that's an excellent question. Now we are getting into the meta-myth of the early Irish settlers. I would recommend researching a group called the Fir Bolg-- do a google or bing image search and see if these characters might look familiar. Could Fir Bolg be hg I or I1? I don't know, but it sure is fun to speculate.

But in my opinion, no I wouldn't call the first waves of hg I (either I1 or I2) that made it onto the Isles Celtic. They probably have a more "Celtic" autosomal make-up than an I1 member found in say Sweden or Finland... but in my world view R1b owns the true Celtic title.

Ah the meta-myth. We'll leave it to that for now.

nordicfoyer
07-03-13, 06:48
Ah the meta-myth. We'll leave it to that for now.

Probably a wise choice.

But myths have been know to contain a nugget or two of truth-- they do get passed down for a reason. :)

spruithean
08-03-13, 00:35
Probably a wise choice.

But myths have been know to contain a nugget or two of truth-- they do get passed down for a reason. :)

Not always... some myths are created for various purposes.

For example the Scots in the Declaration of Arbroath claimed they descended from an Egyptian princess "Scota". They made interesting claims to convince the Pope that they were a separate distinct people from the English.

But they are myths and should be left for another time...

Hopefully more information can be discovered for the I1-Z140s, I1-L338s and the other various groups.

nordicfoyer
08-03-13, 01:18
Oh boy, you don't want to get me started on my strange theories linking the Scots and the Egyptians... one day I might start a thread on it. Or maybe a novel...

tjlowery87
08-03-13, 23:09
Haha. I've seen other images similar to these on the Haplogroup I1 page on facebook and ancestry. Isn't it Terry Robb that has said that AAB(A,B) is Celtic when found in the Isles?

I've heard no one else speak of those haplotypes as "Celtic".

i think i1as4 is celto germanic or somethying similar

spruithean
09-03-13, 00:07
i think i1as4 is celto germanic or somethying similar

Do you mean I1-AS4?

I1-AS4 is DF29* meaning it is in the I1a* part of the tree.

Other types in the DF29* sphere are:
I1a*
AS1114
AS12
AS2122
ML22,10,12
Mav11
and P

are all DF29*. I'm not sure what the origin of that is but it predates Germanic culture by a long shot.

"I1a (S438) This lineage was able to repopulate Northern Europe in the early Mesolithic"
= S428 is the same as DF29

So could it be possible that it is of non-Germanic origin?

tjlowery87
09-03-13, 02:50
good point,in my own opinion if it didnt come with the germanics it came with the celts

tjlowery87
09-03-13, 03:00
i didnt think i1 was old enough to be in the mesolithic

spruithean
09-03-13, 07:29
i didnt think i1 was old enough to be in the mesolithic

Due to recent SNP discoveries it is. Please see Ken Nortvedt's documents and take a look at Terry Robb's work.

Also take a look at the 2013 ISOGG Haplogroup I tree.

tjlowery87
09-03-13, 21:21
last emails i exchanged with both of them a couple weeks ago (3 to 4) terry rob said 5000bc
and nordvedt 4500yp in i1 origin

tjlowery87
10-03-13, 17:33
then again maybe an i1 male went south and banged some celtic chick and his kids went to the isles lol

spruithean
10-03-13, 18:00
then again maybe an i1 male went south and banged some celtic chick and his kids went to the isles lol

Wouldn't have been my choice of words haha.