PDA

View Full Version : E1b1b1a1b (V-13): Balkan or Middle Eastern?



PaschalisB
13-02-13, 18:27
The origin of E1b1b1a is for sure african according to almost all sources. As regards V-13 the most prevalent theory is that it arrived to the balkans (where it is mostly found today) from the middle-east. There are some theories though that claim that the particular haplogroup arose in the balkans. Is there any evidence that could support this theory?

Anthro-inclined
13-02-13, 21:28
As Of 2007, The General Consensus IS That This E1b1b1a Arose In North-east Africa Around 18000 Years Ago, Possibly Libya Or Sudan, But Most Likely It Was In Egypt. It Then Migrated Into The Middle East Shortly After, And Possibly Into Europe Not Long After That, Some Think At The End Of The LGM. So It Is Possible That This Subclade Formed In The Balkans, Other Evidence For AN Ancient European Origin For E1b1b1a1b Is That 7000 Year Old Remains In Nothern Spain Tested For This Subclade.

Eldritch
13-02-13, 23:35
Likely to have originated in Balkans, at our days it's very low outside of Europe.

Yetos
14-02-13, 00:21
Until today no E-V13 has been Found In Blakans older than any other HG
and only 1 in Europe in Spain. No More

the nearest older is founded in Konya Turkey estimated about 2000 BC same Time Dienekes mentions as Entrance In Balkans,
that Time also fits with Arcado-Cypriot population entrance In Greece, but yet no Greece no elsewere in Balkans has been found,
so it could be even later.

the rest are Theories, for nationalistic reasons,
When an E-V13 is found In Balkans then we can speak,
we even find Dogs DNA like the sub-specie Αλωπεκις an Asian-south Balkanic dog that came at 3000 BC but no human E-V13
for data ask Federation Canis International FCI which ask the genetical data to saved in Genetic Bank since that dog specie is in danger.

kamani
14-02-13, 01:58
The origin of E1b1b1a is for sure african according to almost all sources. As regards V-13 the most prevalent theory is that it arrived to the balkans (where it is mostly found today) from the middle-east. There are some theories though that claim that the particular haplogroup arose in the balkans. Is there any evidence that could support this theory?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68_%28Y-DNA%29#E-V13_and_ancient_migrations

The parent E-M78 left Egypt 20000 yrs ago, but E-V13 is almost non-existent outside of europe. Almost all scientists agree it spread from the balkans sometime in the neolithic (see link above).

Dianatomia
19-02-13, 11:18
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68_%28Y-DNA%29#E-V13_and_ancient_migrations

The parent E-M78 left Egypt 20000 yrs ago, but E-V13 is almost non-existent outside of europe. Almost all scientists agree it spread from the balkans sometime in the neolithic (see link above).

So, it is a new wave of people who left Africa and ended up in Europe and reached the highest rates in Greece, Southern Italy and the Southern Balkans.

If we extrapolate this, it means that a proportion of Ancient Egyptians and a proportion of Ancient Greeks had the same ancestor. That is, in 1000 BC a proportion of the ancestors of Greeks and Egyptians were some 17.000 years apart.

Anthro-inclined
20-02-13, 03:08
So, it is a new wave of people who left Africa and ended up in Europe and reached the highest rates in Greece, Southern Italy and the Southern Balkans.

If we extrapolate this, it means that a proportion of Ancient Egyptians and a proportion of Ancient Greeks had the same ancestor. That is, in 1000 BC a proportion of the ancestors of Greeks and Egyptians were some 17.000 years apart.

This Is The Case With Many Groups Of People, And Civilzations, But Not All EgyptianS Belong To E As There Were Members Of T And R1b, But Youre Right, The Distance Between Us Is Very Short Regardless Of Our Appearances, And This Is Really One Of The Greatest Thing Genetics Has Shown

zanipolo
20-02-13, 07:00
This Is The Case With Many Groups Of People, And Civilzations, But Not All EgyptianS Belong To E As There Were Members Of T And R1b, But Youre Right, The Distance Between Us Is Very Short Regardless Of Our Appearances, And This Is Really One Of The Greatest Thing Genetics Has Shown

this is a good site for E peoples

http://www.haplozone.net/e3b/project

Dianatomia
20-02-13, 09:43
This Is The Case With Many Groups Of People, And Civilzations, But Not All EgyptianS Belong To E As There Were Members Of T And R1b, But Youre Right, The Distance Between Us Is Very Short Regardless Of Our Appearances, And This Is Really One Of The Greatest Thing Genetics Has Shown

True, in that case I should also note that in those 20.000 years E-V13 had undergone natural selection. Migrating towards different habitats and different climates.

Malsori
20-02-13, 12:39
EV-13 together with G2a/G1 could be the truth Middle Eastern haplogroups . They migrated in Southern Europe during Early Neolithic times and in Middle East became extinct due to expansion and conquest of J2 and J1 carrying Kavkaz-like people. According to Cruciani highest diversity and oldest clades of EV-13 are found in West Asia.

kamani
20-02-13, 14:53
True, in that case I should also note that in those 20.000 years E-V13 had undergone natural selection. Migrating towards different habitats and different climates.

I think on the same lines. 20.000 yrs can change a lot in terms of human evolution, considering blonde hair is roughly 11.000 years old. Autosomally, somebody from the balkans with E v-13 is the same as anyone else around him.

Dianatomia
20-02-13, 18:08
I think on the same lines. 20.000 yrs can change a lot in terms of human evolution, considering blonde hair is roughly 11.000 years old. Autosomally, somebody from the balkans with E v-13 is the same as anyone else around him.

That's true, but Balkanians have a variety of haplogroups. Not only E v-13, but also R1 haplogroups, I, and J2. These are also included in autosomal DNA. We don't know how the first arrivals of E V-13 would really look like before they mixed. Or how much they changed.

zanipolo
20-02-13, 22:31
EV-13 together with G2a/G1 could be the truth Middle Eastern haplogroups . They migrated in Southern Europe during Early Neolithic times and in Middle East became extinct due to expansion and conquest of J2 and J1 carrying Kavkaz-like people. According to Cruciani highest diversity and oldest clades of EV-13 are found in West Asia.

Where does Cruciani say this ?

I have cruciani saying that E came from the Nile delta as well as the upper Nile ( egypt and ethiopia)

Ivan
21-02-13, 04:02
EV-13 together with G2a/G1 could be the truth Middle Eastern haplogroups . They migrated in Southern Europe during Early Neolithic times and in Middle East became extinct due to expansion and conquest of J2 and J1 carrying Kavkaz-like people. According to Cruciani highest diversity and oldest clades of EV-13 are found in West Asia.


Actually you are partially right. G2a is also a European group, while G1 is just Middle Eastern and to an extent Central Asian. Ev13 is ME and a European group. No need to enforce a love for my ME neighbors on me. I don't think Yetos was right trying exclude E from Europe, if that was your concern.

Speaking about the origins of hg G, the truth could have been a bit more complex. The highest diversity of G types was once known to be located in Tanzania, while in the mountain of Kilimanjaro lived a mountain Arab-like people. With a little help from aliens, the Tanzanian diverse G types were teleported some 5-10 years ago, in the region of south Caucasus (today's Armenia and Azerbaijan). And suddenly, just for the fun of it, from the Kilimanjaro mountain, Arab-like G men, much to the bewilderment of the Kavkaz-like natives, were materialized all across the Caucasus a few weeks ago.

zanipolo
21-02-13, 05:15
Actually you are partially right. G2a is also a European group, while G1 is just Middle Eastern and to an extent Central Asian. Ev13 is ME and a European group. No need to enforce a love for my ME neighbors to me. I don't think Yetos was right trying exclude E from Europe, if that was your concern.

Speaking about the origins of hg G, the truth could have been a bit more complex. The highest diversity of G types was once known to be located in Tanzania, while in the mountain of Kilimanjaro lived a mountain Arab-like people. With a little help from aliens, the Tanzanian diverse G types were teleported some 5-10 years ago, in the region of south Caucasus (today's Armenia and Azerbaijan). And suddenly, just for the fun of it, from the Kilimanjaro mountain, Arab-like G men, much to the bewilderment of the Kavkaz-like natives, were materialized all across the Caucasus a few weeks ago.

All the G, T and any other HGs apart from E which are in East African lands are part of the Arab slave trade and other Arab trading areas, like, Tanzania, mafia island, Kenya, Somalia, Madagascar, Zanzibar etc etc...these people arrived around the 11th century in mass. These places where basically non-african eventually.

there are even indian and chinese traders there at the same time.

The portuguese noted these traders on non-african origin when they first discovered east Africa.

Ivan
21-02-13, 06:28
All the G, T and any other HGs apart from E which are in East African lands are part of the Arab slave trade and other Arab trading areas, like, Tanzania, mafia island, Kenya, Somalia, Madagascar, Zanzibar etc etc...these people arrived around the 11th century in mass. These places where basically non-african eventually.

there are even indian and chinese traders there at the same time.

The portuguese noted these traders on non-african origin when they first discovered east Africa.


I was trying to be funny in the second part of the post. It looks I am not good at it anyhow.
Nice information though. I was aware of the back and forth migrations of some originally ME people with these parts of Africa.

There are actually no G in Tanzania or Kilimanjaro, and almost none in Africa apart from north Africa and some in Egypt. Apparently G-s (according to I project admin.) are not that old of a group to be spread so far in given time frame, or just preferred lush green places for farms.

So, my unsuccessful joke was trying to address, from my perspective, a logical inconsistency about G-s origins, acknowledging the fact that the highest diversity is in today's Armenia and Azerbaijan.

Anthro-inclined
21-02-13, 07:48
Actually you are partially right. G2a is also a European group, while G1 is just Middle Eastern and to an extent Central Asian. Ev13 is ME and a European group. No need to enforce a love for my ME neighbors to me. I don't think Yetos was right trying exclude E from Europe, if that was your concern.

Speaking about the origins of hg G, the truth could have been a bit more complex. The highest diversity of G types was once known to be located in Tanzania, while in the mountain of Kilimanjaro lived a mountain Arab-like people. With a little help from aliens, the Tanzanian diverse G types were teleported some 5-10 years ago, in the region of south Caucasus (today's Armenia and Azerbaijan). And suddenly, just for the fun of it, from the Kilimanjaro mountain, Arab-like G men, much to the bewilderment of the Kavkaz-like natives, were materialized all across the Caucasus a few weeks ago.
Laughed my ass off reading this, probably the greatest theory ever proposed on this site, spencer wells would be proud, don't worry bud I got the joke, great comment on the absurdity of some theories in genetics. Good job keeping the forum from getting to serious about itself.

Ivan
21-02-13, 08:42
Thanks.

The first part of the message was serious and on the subject, though.

That's what fooled my friend Zanipolo. He was in a serious mode, probably accustomed to reading many serious posts, missing a few crucial words in a hurry.
And without them it is just another theory.

Welcome to the forum.

zanipolo
21-02-13, 10:46
I was trying to be funny in the second part of the post. It looks I am not good at it anyhow.
Nice information though. I was aware of the back and forth migrations of some originally ME people with these parts of Africa.

There are actually no G in Tanzania or Kilimanjaro, and almost none in Africa apart from north Africa and some in Egypt. Apparently G-s (according to I project admin.) are not that old of a group to be spread so far in given time frame, or just preferred lush green places for farms.

So, my unsuccessful joke was trying to address, from my perspective, a logical inconsistency about G-s origins, acknowledging the fact that the highest diversity is in today's Armenia and Azerbaijan.

lol

I thought you where from worldoffamilies forum as they state G in east-Africa...........I should have checked myself.

http://www.worldfamilies.net/yhaplogroups
Egypt Of 147 samples from among Egyptians in Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt) (2004), 9% were G.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G_%28Y-DNA%29_Country_by_Country#cite_note-Luis2004-3) And in a 2009 study, among 116 Egyptians, 6.9% were G.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G_%28Y-DNA%29_Country_by_Country#cite_note-El-Sibai2009-5)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182266/

regards

Ivan
21-02-13, 11:44
Of 147 samples from among Egyptians in Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt) (2004), 9% were G.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G_%28Y-DNA%29_Country_by_Country#cite_note-Luis2004-3) And in a 2009 study, among 116 Egyptians, 6.9% were G.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G_%28Y-DNA%29_Country_by_Country#cite_note-El-Sibai2009-5)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182266/

regards


Yes, I am aware of these Egyptian samples.

Malsori
21-02-13, 13:26
Where does Cruciani say this ?

I have cruciani saying that E came from the Nile delta as well as the upper Nile ( egypt and ethiopia)


On the other hand, when only E-V13
chromosomes from western Asia are considered, the resulting network (fig. 4B) does not show such a star-like shape, and a much earlier TMRCA of 11.5 ky (95% CI 6.8–17.0; fig. 1) is obtained. These results open the possibility of recognizing time windows for 1) population movements from
the E-M78 homeland in northeastern Africa to Eurasia and
2) population movements from western Asia into Europe
and later within Europe.


The low E-V13 frequency (0.9%) and microsatellite
variance (0.13) in northern Africa do not support an antiquity greater than in western Asia. Thus, the most parsimonious and plausible scenario is that E-V13 originated in
western Asia about 11 ky ago, and its presence in northern
Africa is the result of a more recent introgression.

Under this hypothesis, E-V13 chromosomes sampled in western Asia and their coalescence estimate detect a likely Paleolithic exit out of Africa of E-M78 chromosomes devoid
of the V13 mutation, which later occurred somewhere in
the Near East/Anatolia.

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html

MOESAN
21-02-13, 17:08
I think on the same lines. 20.000 yrs can change a lot in terms of human evolution, considering blonde hair is roughly 11.000 years old. Autosomally, somebody from the balkans with E v-13 is the same as anyone else around him.

everybody seam forgetting than more than a mutation occurred upon pigmentation genes, even for eyes and hairs, it's of no use mentioning skin colour...
not to say your intervention is wrong, only to point at the uncertainty of some dates...
that said, I agree that phenotypes, by selection AND by crossings, can diverge from Y-haplo's repartition.

Anthro-inclined
21-02-13, 21:03
Back To The Initial Topic Though. Another Possibility For E In Europe Is That It Crossed Into Spain From North Africa When Sea Levels Were Lower, Possibly In The LGM. Although The High Frequency In The Balkans Would Seem To Suggest An Entry From This Area, The Relative Absence From The Middle East Seems To Go For The Crossing Strait From Africa. This Would Also Explain The Early Presence Of 7000 Years Ago In Spain. So My Point Benig That This Subclade Could Be Not From The Middle East Or The Balkans.

albanopolis
22-02-13, 04:49
Since I don't understand genetics can anyone make it simple for me?
1) Were the original E V13 people in the Ballkans white or did they get white from inermixing with the European stock?
2)Judging from todays population of E V13 carriers in Europe what could have been the initial crowd of E V13?
3)Since there are allegations that the initial E V13 came by see is it possible to judge if the crowd was male only,or male and females. Since at ancient times there was not enough knowledge about surroundings one possibility is that the ship lost the derection and ended up by chance in the Ballkans. And males only.

LeBrok
22-02-13, 05:43
Since I don't understand genetics can anyone make it simple for me?
1) Were the original E V13 people in the Ballkans white or did they get white from inermixing with the European stock?

Keep in mind that E, I or R1a are just a designations of mail Y chromosome. Y DNA constitutes only 2% of our whole DNA. Genraly speaking you are 98% local guy, even if your Y DNA turned to be of some "foreign" kind. :)


3)Since there are allegations that the initial E V13 came by see is it possible to judge if the crowd was male only,or male and females To figure out possible female evolutionary or traveling past one have to test mtDNA, the mitochondrial DNA material.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_mtdna_haplogroups_frequency.shtml

Anthro-inclined
22-02-13, 06:19
Since I don't understand genetics can anyone make it simple for me?
1) Were the original E V13 people in the Ballkans white or did they get white from inermixing with the European stock?
2)Judging from todays population of E V13 carriers in Europe what could have been the initial crowd of E V13?
3)Since there are allegations that the initial E V13 came by see is it possible to judge if the crowd was male only,or male and females. Since at ancient times there was not enough knowledge about surroundings one possibility is that the ship lost the derection and ended up by chance in the Ballkans. And males only.

Basics- if you are male you have a dad and a mom, you inherit a y chromosome from daddy and an x from mommy, all males descend from the ydna of one man in Africa that lived over 140000 years ago but over time that line mutated into many different haplogroups, its the same deal with Mtdna. the y dna that you get from dad is what we are talking about, Mtdna is what mom gives you and that is different from what we are discussing.

Y dna- So now you know that all us boys have y dna, now like 26000 years ago a man walked around east africa and had some boys and his boys had boys and so on, each subsequent boy carried this mans y dna marker, which was E1b1b, and eventually his marker would mutate,spread,migrate to cover north Africa the mid east and Europe.

Specific- Now over time his y line would venture out of Africa and migrate into Europe and what we are trying to figure out is if the E1b1b1a1b marker developed in the Mid east or Balkans. Also worthy of note, i see you are Albanian, so it is quite possible you may carry this mans y line.

kamani
22-02-13, 08:21
1) Were the original E V13 people in the Ballkans white or did they get white from inermixing with the European stock?

Not that it matters much, but just to answer your question...
The original E v-13 looked white with a slight sub-saharan influence, like berbers from North-Africa, who are predominantly E1b1b (88% or more). The few ones that made it all the way to europe were males who mixed with the local women (mtdna in europe is mostly paleolithic). So don't get your hopes up and enroll your boys in basketball classes just yet (joke).

zanipolo
22-02-13, 11:35
Not that it matters much, but just to answer your question...
The original E v-13 looked white with a slight sub-saharan influence, like berbers from North-Africa, who are predominantly E1b1b (88% or more). The few ones that made it all the way to europe were males who mixed with the local women (mtdna in europe is mostly paleolithic). So don't get your hopes up and enroll your boys in basketball classes just yet (joke).

Everybody was black when the first Hgs left Africa, people changed to lighter coloured skin over time depending on where they lived. The skin colour changes pigmentation to take in vitamin D.

Anthro-inclined
22-02-13, 18:02
Not that it matters much, but just to answer your question...
The original E v-13 looked white with a slight sub-saharan influence, like berbers from North-Africa, who are predominantly E1b1b (88% or more). The few ones that made it all the way to europe were males who mixed with the local women (mtdna in europe is mostly paleolithic). So don't get your hopes up and enroll your boys in basketball classes just yet (joke).

Nobody can know exactly what the first E1b1b man looked like, but it is most probable that he had physical features more similar to sub Saharan Africans than to Berbers, as that most(if not all) populations in the upper paleolithic, had dark skin pigmentation's and the climate in which he lived probably opted for a darker pigment. Also that bit about only male E1b1b migrating into Europe without women is ridiculous, they didn't come by plane, the migration most likely took thousands of years to complete and in order for the lineage to continue they would need women migrating with them, so they most likely migrated into Europe with middle eastern Mtdna lineages, or north African ones.

albanopolis
22-02-13, 19:05
Proof that E V13 is Albanian halogroup:
1) The majority halogroup in Albania is E v13. This halogroup is the backbone of Albanian nation. This halogroup can not originate from Greeks for the following reasons:
a) Greeks have a majority J halogroup as the backbone of their nation. Had E been the people that build the ancient Civilisation of Greece, since there are more E people in Albania then Illyria should have been equally or more civilized. In fact it wasn't
b)Two more isolated places of Greece, namely Crete and Cypros have minimal amount of E by Ballkan standarts. Had E been the majority or Greek origin those are the places where E should have been preserved.
c) Sicily was once Greek. Again the majority halogroup in Greek part of Sicily is J. Minority E.) Greeks were and are civilised people. Others were barbarians. Including the ancesters of Albanians namely Illyrians. Knowing that two worst barbarians in history of man, namely Hitler and Bonoparte, were E people then, E can not be Greek since barbarians carry it, and Greeks were not barbarians.
d) Since Albanians were and are barbarians and carry E, and E has produced well known barbarians, Then E must be Albanian.
e)Since Greeks carry E and E is barbarian, then E must have come from Albanians to Greece.
f) This proves that today Greece is partly "New Albania" which is why sometimes reflects barbaric behavier.
Proved. Bingo. E is Albanian halogroup.

Eldritch
22-02-13, 20:03
Proof that E V13 is Albanian halogroup:
1) The majority halogroup in Albania is E v13. This halogroup is the backbone of Albanian nation. This halogroup can not originate from Greeks for the following reasons:
a) Greeks have a majority J halogroup as the backbone of their nation. Had E been the people that build the ancient Civilisation of Greece, since there are more E people in Albania then Illyria should have been equally or more civilized. In fact it wasn't
b)Two more isolated places of Greece, namely Crete and Cypros have minimal amount of E by Ballkan standarts. Had E been the majority or Greek origin those are the places where E should have been preserved.
c) Sicily was once Greek. Again the majority halogroup in Greek part of Sicily is J. Minority E.) Greeks were and are civilised people. Others were barbarians. Including the ancesters of Albanians namely Illyrians. Knowing that two worst barbarians in history of man, namely Hitler and Bonoparte, were E people then, E can not be Greek since barbarians carry it, and Greeks were not barbarians.
d) Since Albanians were and are barbarians and carry E, and E has produced well known barbarians, Then E must be Albanian.
e)Since Greeks carry E and E is barbarian, then E must have come from Albanians to Greece.
f) This proves that today Greece is partly "New Albania" which is why sometimes reflects barbaric behavier.
Proved. Bingo. E is Albanian halogroup.
Haplogroup E-V13 isn't Albanian nor it belongs exclusively to them, actually highest diversity of E-V13 is in today Bosnia according to Steven Bird.
And your reasoning is that of a kid.

kamani
22-02-13, 20:50
Nobody can know exactly what the first E1b1b man looked like, but it is most probable that he had physical features more similar to sub Saharan Africans than to Berbers, as that most(if not all) populations in the upper paleolithic, had dark skin pigmentation's and the climate in which he lived probably opted for a darker pigment.

I agree that at some point in time everybody was black, but this is not the case here.
E v-13 came to europe in the neolithic not upper paleolithic and we know how it looked like because we're lucky enough to have samples of its parent clades in their natural habitat, namely berbers of above-saharan africa, and they're not black.



Also that bit about only male E1b1b migrating into Europe without women is ridiculous, they didn't come by plane, the migration most likely took thousands of years to complete and in order for the lineage to continue they would need women migrating with them, so they most likely migrated into Europe with middle eastern Mtdna lineages, or north African ones.


Maybe they brought some middle eastern women if they came from the Anatolia route, but it is a known fact that women are not very good migrators. If the opposite was true how do you explain that every country in europe has very similar mtdna ?

Anthro-inclined
22-02-13, 21:32
I agree that at some point in time everybody was black, but this is not the case here.
E v-13 came to europe in the neolithic not upper paleolithic and we know how it looked like because we're lucky enough to have samples of its parent clades in their natural habitat, namely berbers of above-saharan africa, and they're not black.
I wasn't talking about the V13 subclade, if you notice i said E1b1b were of darker skin pigmentation, and you cant base the physical appearance of the V13 people off the Berbers, if you know anything of north African historical geography, the region has changed from lush jungle over 10000 years to desert, so the physical appearance of the Berbers ancestors was most likely much different. Also please dont use Y dna to determine physical appearance, it represents less than 1 percent of the genome.




Maybe they brought some middle eastern women if they came from the Anatolia route, but it is a known fact that women are not very good migrators. If the opposite was true how do you explain that every country in europe has very similar mtdna ?
Every country in Europe has similar Y DNA to, it is a very genetically uniform continent so i dont see your point, and women will usually migrate with men, men are just more productive pro creators as they can have as many children as they want through their lives and are physically stronger, and because of this you see newer and more varied Y DNA than Mtdna.

kamani
22-02-13, 22:10
Every country in Europe has similar Y DNA to, it is a very genetically uniform continent so i dont see your point

Not exactly; for example balkanic slavs are mostly I2a, british people are mostly R1b.



and women will usually migrate with men

Not really, for example, even with all the facilities of the 20-th century, the american west while being colonized had a shortage of women for a long time.

Anthro-inclined
22-02-13, 22:28
Not exactly; for example balkanic slavs are mostly I2a, british people are mostly R1b.
even if the frequencies vary depending on the country, the basic HG's like I and R1b are mostly the same but with differing clades just like Mtdna, the most plausible explanation for E-V13 not having a Mtdna counterpart, would be that the lineage did not continue to pass on like the mens did, but that dosent mean that only men were part of the migration of E-V13.



Not really, for example, even with all the facilities of the 20-th century, the american west while being colonized had a shortage of women for a long time.

As a metis, i know exactly what you mean, and yes they procreated with the native women, but if it wasnt for the technological advents that allowed for prolonged travel and ocean crossing caravels and monarchy backed exploration, it would taken these men thousands of years to complete such a journey, so 10000 years ago, when technology as we know it was in its infancy, any great migration would take a really long time, and in order to preserve their genes, they would need to have women with them.

Yetos
22-02-13, 22:47
What about 'mother' Jasmin and others?

how many grand mothers mothers came from Near East?

albanopolis
22-02-13, 23:48
This kind of whitening because of sun light is kind of fishy. Why did not eskimo get a pale skin when everybody knows they have 20000 yrs in Amerika.

albanopolis
22-02-13, 23:52
Can you explain to me what higher diversity means. Does it mean it has all posible existing E, let say the Berber E, the Egyptian E and so on.....

zanipolo
23-02-13, 00:07
This kind of whitening because of sun light is kind of fishy. Why did not eskimo get a pale skin when everybody knows they have 20000 yrs in Amerika.

because ice is a reflectant so the skin needs a darkish colour for protection

Anthro-inclined
23-02-13, 00:19
This kind of whitening because of sun light is kind of fishy. Why did not eskimo get a pale skin when everybody knows they have 20000 yrs in Amerika.
This Is Actually Not Completely Correct, Many Inuit Have Light Skin Pigmentation, And It Is Rare When They Carry Noticabley Darker Skin Pigmentations Than Europeans.
Skin Pigmentation Also Is Correlated To Lifestyle, In Northern Less Sunsoaked Areas, This Was The Case In Europe, Once Europe Recieved Agriculture It Is Believed That A Couple Thousand Years Later Euro Developed Lighter Skin.

albanopolis
23-02-13, 02:01
Indians of North America why did not they become white?

Anthro-inclined
23-02-13, 02:48
Indians of North America why did not they become white?
Most Tribes Followed A Hunter Gatherer Lifestyle, And If We Look To Paleolithic Populations Who Also Were Hunter Gatherers, We See That These Populations Also Had Darker Skin Because Of Their Lifestyle, So One Could Make This Correlation, Also There Is More Sun Exposure In The Americas Than In Europe.

LeBrok
23-02-13, 04:01
This Is Actually Not Completely Correct, Many Inuit Have Light Skin Pigmentation, And It Is Rare When They Carry Noticabley Darker Skin Pigmentations Than Europeans.
Exactly. Plus Inuit have tradition of starting eating seals or other mammals from their fresh liver. Liver is the "warehouse" of the body. Place where essential to life elements are stored. Among them vitamin D3. They compensate lack of sun and D3 production in skin, by fresh liver diet. Cooking process will disintegrate vitamins, including D3.

It should be added that apart from lighter skin or affinity for fresh liver, there is other known mutation for helping to survive up north. Mutation that allows burning more fats, or burning them faster, to keep body warmer in colder climates. Inuit have them, Asiatic tundra tribes, and also norther Europeans, although I'm not sure if it the same mutation or independent one.


Skin Pigmentation Also Is Correlated To Lifestyle, In Northern Less Sunsoaked Areas, This Was The Case In Europe, Once Europe Recieved Agriculture It Is Believed That A Couple Thousand Years Later Euro Developed Lighter Skin.
Interesting, though it might have been coincidental. When comparing spread of agriculture through Europe and pigmentation of skin, it looks like the places where farming came last are the whitest. Having said that, farming and herding greatly increased population numbers and density, therefore probability for more and quicker mutations.

LeBrok
23-02-13, 04:13
Indians of North America why did not they become white?
If you mean white as Europeans, answer is that they didn't develop same white skin mutation(s) of Europeans.
Compare skin pigmentation of natives through North America and you will see that the ones from Mexico have darker skin than natives from Canada. It shows you that there is a correlation between human skin color and climatic zones.

The difficult question is why Natives from around equator in America didn't develop (or returned to) black skin color, like Nigerians have? Wasn't it necessary, because of development of clothes? Do we have weaker sun than 200k years ago? They've completely lost black skin DNA? Not just deactivated but completely lost from genome?

albanopolis
23-02-13, 04:43
Since I am not literate in genetics, how come all halogroups were formed some 5000 or more years ago, what happened after this time from 5000 to now, why did the change stoped? I mean no new halogroups?

LeBrok
23-02-13, 04:59
Since I am not literate in genetics, how come all halogroups were formed some 5000 or more years ago, what happened after this time from 5000 to now, why did the change stoped? I mean no new halogroups?
5000? Who stopped the process? Did you get this info from Bible classes? (tongue in cheek)
It's going and going and going and will never stop.

Just look at this timeline:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_haplogroups_timeline.shtml

Alexandros
23-02-13, 17:07
Indians of North America moved southwards quite fast when they entered the new continent in search of warmer climates. North America in general does not have a huge shortage of sunlight, like North Europe does. Do not forget that white skin gives a survival advantage in places with little sunlight. It has nothing to do with temperature. For example, a cold place with relatively prolonged sunshine through the year is very different from a cold, constantly cloudy place. Therefore, a paler skin did not seem to give an evolutionary advantage to the first people of North America, thus their skin remained relatively dark.

gashi91
25-02-13, 03:17
For those of you whom are Albanian and have done their DNA test on FTDNA:
Join the Albanian DNA Project -- > http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Abanian_DNA_Poject/

albanopolis
27-02-13, 03:02
Indians of North America moved southwards quite fast when they entered the new continent in search of warmer climates. North America in general does not have a huge shortage of sunlight, like North Europe does. Do not forget that white skin gives a survival advantage in places with little sunlight. It has nothing to do with temperature. For example, a cold place with relatively prolonged sunshine through the year is very different from a cold, constantly cloudy place. Therefore, a paler skin did not seem to give an evolutionary advantage to the first people of North America, thus their skin remained relatively dark.
Its estimated that they populated north America 20 000 yrs ago. Canada region to Alaska has the long nights the same way North Europe has. And still Indians of America are not pale, closely resembling mongol tribes. Or take South Africa. They live 30 degrees south of equator with the same sun light like Lebanon or Greece and see the difference. So sun not so convincing.

oriental
27-02-13, 03:20
It is the diet of cow's milk, curds, cheese and goat milk, cheese that gave the europoid looks. Even Hg E an african haplogroup looks europoid. Cattle and goats were domesticated independently in Central Asia, North Africa and India 15,000 years ago.

albanopolis
27-02-13, 03:25
It is the diet of cow's milk, curds, cheese and goat milk, cheese that gave the europoid looks. Even Hg E an african haplogroup looks europoid. Cattle and goats were domesticated independently in Central Asia, North Africa and India 15,000 years ago.Nutrition could have an impact on the stature of the individual, or let say the inteligence of the individual if you beleive that thought is the product of brain, but why should have an impact on DNA?

Anthro-inclined
27-02-13, 03:37
Its estimated that they populated north America 20 000 yrs ago. Canada region to Alaska has the long nights the same way North Europe has. And still Indians of America are not pale, closely resembling mongol tribes. Or take South Africa. They live 30 degrees south of equator with the same sun light like Lebanon or Greece and see the difference. So sun not so convincing.
The English Is A Bit Marred Here, But I'll Try And Contest Some Of Your Points. First Of All The Exact Date Of The Populating Of The Americas Is Unkown, But The Most Wide Spread And Oldest HG In The Americas Is Q Which Developed Into Q-M3 10 To 15 Thousand YBP, Most Likely In Beringia, And Then Moved Into The Americas. So Genetics Cannot Prove A 20000 Year Entry. Also Just Because Two Regions Are At The Same Distance From The Equator Dosent Mean They Recieve The Same Sunlight, As Enviormental Factors Like Climate Conditions And Other Enviormental Conditons Must Be Taken Into Account. Finally You Are Correct When Thinking That Sunlight Is Not The Only Factor When Determining Skin Pigmentation, As Nutrition Plays A Role And Lifstyle.

oriental
27-02-13, 04:08
why should have an impact on DNA?

The DNA is like a house. The material you use will determine how the house will function. However nature doesn't wait for the "right" material. The construction schedule is fixed and it will build with whatever is available. That is why the northern people don't have vegetables, fruits and spices so they lack melanin and other stuff. The lack of melanin could mean lighter skin, blond or red hair, blue/green eyes, freckles, etc. The DNA compensates for whatever it lacks and build on other substitutes.

kamani
27-02-13, 04:40
so if we feed the chinese cheese, they're going to look caucasian, lol

oriental
05-03-13, 02:07
chinese cheese, they're going to look caucasian, lol

If it weren't for the consumption especially during the growing stages of calcium in the milk and milk products the E Hg would look African as it is an African haplogroup.

Many Canadian Chinese have more pronounced nose bridges larger than Asian Chinese as they eat Pizzas and consume western foods. My nephew and youngest sister has rather large noses compared to the rest of us.

I may be wrong on the skin situation though. If you remove the hairs on a chimpanzee you will notice the skin colour is pinkish as well as a chicken without feathers. The African's black skin is really an adaptation to losing our hairs as explained by Dr Wells in the case of the San in the Namibian desert who ran down their prey. The hairs were lost to reduce heat build up from running. The black skinned Africans may have resulted from forest dwelling as black skin is a good camouflage in the shadows of the trees for hunting and warfare and the sun tan. The San people are brownish which would be more suited to the brown sand rather than having black. Brown skin blends better in the desert.

Anthro-inclined
05-03-13, 05:36
If it weren't for the consumption especially during the growing stages of calcium in the milk and milk products the E Hg would look African as it is an African haplogroup.

Many Canadian Chinese have more pronounced nose bridges larger than Asian Chinese as they eat Pizzas and consume western foods. My nephew and youngest sister has rather large noses compared to the rest of us.

I may be wrong on the skin situation though. If you remove the hairs on a chimpanzee you will notice the skin colour is pinkish as well as a chicken without feathers. The African's black skin is really an adaptation to losing our hairs as explained by Dr Wells in the case of the San in the Namibian desert who ran down their prey. The hairs were lost to reduce heat build up from running. The black skinned Africans may have resulted from forest dwelling as black skin is a good camouflage in the shadows of the trees for hunting and warfare and the sun tan. The San people are brownish which would be more suited to the brown sand rather than having black. Brown skin blends better in the desert.
Putting a specific skin colour and phenotype to a Haplogroup, is always an abitrary thing to do. there is no telling what the people who pocessed the lineage E 20000 years ago looked like, as Y DNA is simply a small segment of our overall genetic composition, so be careful when making such huge claims.
As for you and your nephew, The consumption of western foods within the last generation or so will have no direct affect on your phenotype, it is most likely a coincidence that you and your nephew have differing noses, also the width of ones nose is determined by genetics, not food, due to the air moisture and tempture in China, overtime your ancestors began developing noses that would do well in the conditions that the enviorment presented.
The last part of your reply is just to hilarious for me to adress, that part about camoflage just killed me. Nonetheless i see no scientific evidence to back your camoflage theory, but if you can provide some by all means show me, lol.

oriental
05-03-13, 21:58
may have resulted from forest dwelling as black skin is a good camouflage

See the word "MAY", it is just a speculation.

Anthro-inclined
05-03-13, 22:07
See the word "MAY", it is just a speculation.
Sorry, just thought it was really funny.

oriental
05-03-13, 23:23
No harm done. I am here for fun. I am not a geneticist. I just have an extremely wide knowledge. I was good at all subjects in school took all kinds of courses. Hated poetry though.

Anthro-inclined
07-03-13, 20:28
The origin of E1b1b1a is for sure african according to almost all sources. As regards V-13 the most prevalent theory is that it arrived to the balkans (where it is mostly found today) from the middle-east. There are some theories though that claim that the particular haplogroup arose in the balkans. Is there any evidence that could support this theory?
New info from a recent study on Bulgaria posted by Maciamo should help shed some light on this.

Haplogroup E-V13 displays a star-like network radiating from a central haplotype mainly found in the Balkan populations. This pattern, together with coalescence estimates, points to a recent and rapid expansion of this lineage in the Balkans. Not considering Bosnian Croats and Macedonian Greeks, for which standard errors are too large, the highest age in the Balkans, dating back to Mesolithic times, is found in Western Bulgaria (9.3±3 kya). This value, which overlaps that registered in Turkey (10.6±3 kya), indicates that haplogroup E-V13 was already present (if not originated) in Mesolithic times in Western Bulgaria from where it underwent expansion with the transition to farming.
So it seems to suggest an origin in the Balkans. There is way more about it in the study give it a read, other info on the Balkan gene pool there to. Here's the link.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0056779

MOESAN
09-03-13, 00:49
It seems that the overflowing majority of Y-E1V13 in Balkans reflects an arrival distinct from the first agriculturors or anyway (if wrong) a small group of them, which knew after mutation a big increase in number: maybe by neolithical way-of-life adoption?

adamo
24-04-13, 04:13
The men of haplogroup E-V13 where originally part of the E-M78 lineage found in Libya/Egypt predominantly. From there these men traveled to coastal levant and Anatolia from where they would later migrate to the Balkans in very large numbers, Greece, Albania, Serbia, Macedonia, parts of Bulgaria, to be more precise.

Anthro-inclined
24-04-13, 04:27
The men of haplogroup E-V13 where originally part of the E-M78 lineage found in Libya/Egypt predominantly. From there these men traveled to coastal levant and Anatolia from where they would later migrate to the Balkans in very large numbers, Greece, Albania, Serbia, Macedonia, parts of Bulgaria, to be more precise.
It would be great if you sourced your claims, or at least give some vague idea of where you came up with this. Being a resident expert on every subject tends to make you appear less credible .

adamo
24-04-13, 04:45
My knowledgeable brain is my source, I acquire sources from books and the Internet, predominantly, over long periods of time, I can not, at the drop of a pin, remember and relay to you many source locations as I inform myself from here and there and retain all this information passionately within my Brain like a sponge thirsty for more water. I can only confirm to you that my above statement had a 99% chance of being 100% correct.

adamo
25-04-13, 03:29
No don't "dislike" my initial post, that's the answer, wether you like it or not, that's the story of E-V13.

Anthro-inclined
25-04-13, 03:53
No don't "dislike" my initial post, that's the answer, wether you like it or not, that's the story of E-V13.
It wasnt me. If youll notice you were disliked twice, and i was liked twice, I cannot like myself, nor can i dislike you more than once. I didnt dislike your statement, but nice job mis using the reputation system again because you believe I found your statement unhelpful, even though i didnt even see your response until now. Ill say it again, I have never rated any of your statements unhelpful, out of the hundreds youve posted in the last week, in fact i rated your post on J2 as helpful because i felt you put alot of work into it. You can believe what you want, and continue to take the point out of the reputation system if you wish.

Anthro-inclined
25-04-13, 04:03
If you think its nessacary ill PM you a picture of my user cp showing my last post ratings to prove it wasnt me. Is this what you want?

adamo
25-04-13, 04:51
I wasn't directly talking to you lol I'm very sorry for what I set up to be misinterpretation, I was just saying it out in the air I guess, what I posted was correct factual information, unless the two individuals that disliked my comment know better on the spread of E-V13 lollll sheesh! Seems pretty straight-forward to me in terms of E-V13!

albanopolis
26-04-13, 03:28
Of course ballkans. You see the high concentration of e-v13 in ballkans. Middle east got it from the ballkans in Roman and Ottoman times from soldery.

kamani
26-04-13, 07:56
E-v13 has the highest diversity in the ballkans, so it was born there and it back-migrated to middle-east. The parent of E-v13 probably came to the balkans from the middle-east around 7000-10000 yrs ago.

adamo
26-04-13, 08:57
Thank you for saying exactly what I did : ), you are correct.

MOESAN
27-04-13, 13:03
Y-E1 came in Europe from Africa or SW Levant, according to subhaplogroups that knew surely different stories
Y-E as a whole don't mean a very negroid form of humanity even at the beginning (hyper-negroid traits are surely late evolutions, as hyper-europoid or hyper-mongoloid specializations) -
Y-E1-V13 is a downstream among other and WE DON'T KNOW where it was born WE KNOW it grew numerous i Balkans, it is not the same - (as said Maciamo long time ago)
WE ARE NOT SURE FOR NOW (I believe, based on my PRESENT knowledge) it came from Egypte only through Levant lands, someones suppose it could have reached Europe by sea too

adamo
27-04-13, 13:16
I agree, with MOESAN's, it either arrived to the Balkans via the Middle East or moved directly across the sea from Egypt towards modern-day Greece, although my predominant view is the first hypothesis.

oriental
27-04-13, 19:48
One must remember that when Genghis Khan conquered the Khwarizm Kingdom he sold many as slaves to the Middle East thus the Mamluks were those warrior slaves that took over Egypt. There is a lot of Central Asian blood in the Middle East.

albanopolis
29-04-13, 16:36
Common sense people! The parent of E-V13 arrived through Levant or Egypt by land but most likely by see( landed in greece). Greece has all possible subclades of E. There is where E-v13 propbably was born and multiplied. Had it been born in Levant or Egypt there should have been a bigger chunk of the population. Populations move when their number grow in size and the land where they reside could not feed them any more. They were not moving up for turistic reasons. So there is not evidence of high concentration of E-V13 in africa or lavant. Consequently was born in Ballkans.

Ike
09-07-13, 19:30
The DNA is like a house. The material you use will determine how the house will function. However nature doesn't wait for the "right" material. The construction schedule is fixed and it will build with whatever is available. That is why the northern people don't have vegetables, fruits and spices so they lack melanin and other stuff. The lack of melanin could mean lighter skin, blond or red hair, blue/green eyes, freckles, etc. The DNA compensates for whatever it lacks and build on other substitutes.

My idea is that individuals which have DNA that will support the new climate and food will survive in greater number that the ones that don't. For example, if we have a large African ship docked in Scandinavia some 5000 years ago, those individuals with more body fat would have less problems acclimatizing than those who are not. So some qualities (fast, muscled, skinny) that would be an advantage in subtropic climate and their hunting practice, would not appear like that in other areas. Same goes on tolerance for food, humidity, diseases, etc.

After 2000 years, with no mingling with natives, we may have a group of African people in Scandinavia with same Y/mt DNA, but with totally different autosomal DNA than their own tribe in Africa. That must surely reflect on physical characteristics and appearance.

Yetos
09-07-13, 22:14
My idea is that individuals which have DNA that will support the new climate and food will survive in greater number that the ones that don't. For example, if we have a large African ship docked in Scandinavia some 5000 years ago, those individuals with more body fat would have less problems acclimatizing than those who are not. So some qualities (fast, muscled, skinny) that would be an advantage in subtropic climate and their hunting practice, would not appear like that in other areas. Same goes on tolerance for food, humidity, diseases, etc.

After 2000 years, with no mingling with natives, we may have a group of African people in Scandinavia with same Y/mt DNA, but with totally different autosomal DNA than their own tribe in Africa. That must surely reflect on physical characteristics and appearance.

Correct the DNA who survive will the ones who fought climate in the begining, and then the ones who got the mutations needed,
but still after 20 000 will be able to say who existed there and who came by ship.

LeBrok
10-07-13, 02:59
My idea is that individuals which have DNA that will support the new climate and food will survive in greater number that the ones that don't. For example, if we have a large African ship docked in Scandinavia some 5000 years ago, those individuals with more body fat would have less problems acclimatizing than those who are not. So some qualities (fast, muscled, skinny) that would be an advantage in subtropic climate and their hunting practice, would not appear like that in other areas. Same goes on tolerance for food, humidity, diseases, etc.

After 2000 years, with no mingling with natives, we may have a group of African people in Scandinavia with same Y/mt DNA, but with totally different autosomal DNA than their own tribe in Africa. That must surely reflect on physical characteristics and appearance.
Few corrections, they wouldn't survive 2,000 as black people in Scandinavia. Vitamin D3 deficiency would kill them all slowly. They would need to mix heavily with white natives to develope white skin and survive. There is a reason why you don't see any black tribes in Northern regions. Likewise all native african R1bs carriers are black. Well, till recent times. There is no advantage to have white skin in Africa.

Eating fat in Northern Europe, or wherever closer to arctic, is prefered fuel to keep body temps higher. Natural Northern diet is more fatty when compared to Mediterranean cuisine. Half of Eskimo or Inuit diet is fat. They also enjoy eating raw liver, the only source of vitamin D up there.

If it comes to being fat, Africans are not immune from it. They have to go through extended droughts, therefore having fat reserves helps a lot. The only reason you see so many skinny Africans is because there are so many of them and food is in shortage. Go to America and you will see their natural tendencies of building fat reserves very quickly.

Yetos
10-07-13, 03:37
Few corrections, they wouldn't survive 2,000 as black people in Scandinavia. Vitamin D3 deficiency would kill them all slowly. They would need to mix heavily with white natives to develope white skin and survive. There is a reason why you don't see any black tribes in Northern regions. Likewise all native african R1bs carriers are black. Well, till recent times. There is no advantage to have white skin in Africa.

Eating fat in Northern Europe, or wherever closer to arctic, is prefered fuel to keep body temps higher. Natural Northern diet is more fatty when compared to Mediterranean cuisine. Half of Eskimo or Inuit diet is fat. They also enjoy eating raw liver, the only source of vitamin D up there.

If it comes to being fat, Africans are not immune from it. They have to go through extended droughts, therefore having fat reserves helps a lot. The only reason you see so many skinny Africans is because there are so many of them and food is in shortage. Go to America and you will see their natural tendencies of building fat reserves very quickly.

Inuit who live Northern than Scandinavians are very dark,
white skin is a mutation that help them survive, but not nessesarily I believe.

about fat deposits in Black populations, I know south African tribes can reserve more fat under their skin, thick lays of inches, than many Asians or Europeans.


http://www.planet-wissen.de/politik_geschichte/voelker/inuit/img/intro_inuit_gewehr_g.jpg

LeBrok
10-07-13, 04:22
Inuit who live Northern than Scandinavians are very dark,
white skin is a mutation that help them survive, but not nessesarily I believe.

about fat deposits in Black populations, I know south African tribes can reserve more fat under their skin, thick lays of inches, than many Asians or Europeans.


http://www.planet-wissen.de/politik_geschichte/voelker/inuit/img/intro_inuit_gewehr_g.jpg
No they are not very dark, plus they eat raw liver to get more vitamin D3. The picture you posted is with tanned hunter, he spends a lot of time outside. What about this one?
http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/148067.jpg

Djordjo
30-11-13, 13:57
First carrier of e-v13 probably came to Europe from the direction of near east, but very very long time ago, and e-v13 gradually spread over most of Europe before indoeuropeans came, so e-v13 is an very old european haplogroup, as much as g2a, there's no any doubt about that. As more ancient DNA is being analized, more comprenhensive picture we will have about ancient europeans.

MOESAN
30-11-13, 15:43
No they are not very dark, plus they eat raw liver to get more vitamin D3. The picture you posted is with tanned hunter, he spends a lot of time outside. What about this one?
http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/148067.jpg

hard to have a precise answer ti these problems of adaptation; too mechanical explanations of selection-adaptations are a bit naive -
I suppose the adaptation for very firstable undadapted tribes would have been crossings with more adapted people (a very light rate of crossing would be sufficient - time 'll do the rest -
let's take the skin colour example: people living in cold climates are supposed to developpe if possible (needed mutation) light skins: but we see almost all the light skinned people as eurasians, northern mongoloid people ('nordics' and north-finnic too) can tan very easily (not to mistake with red haired freckled milky skins and yet even them can tan in some way, after very progressive exposure to sun!) - and in cold region, dry, sun is more often present than in misty N-W-oceanic regions of Europe): what occurs??? the skin tans and become again darker!!! what remains of the complete total mechanical explanation? the pre-supposed solution for fixing D is falling down: ligher to get V-D by sun exposure AND darker because of sun exposure so less V-D fixed-
our explanations are all of them only partly satisfying - and genetic diversity + different diets give a lot pf diverse responses to natural pressure...
I suppose that the skin colour selection was not only a climate one.

Garrick
14-12-13, 13:48
Y-E1 came in Europe from Africa or SW Levant, according to subhaplogroups that knew surely different stories
Y-E as a whole don't mean a very negroid form of humanity even at the beginning (hyper-negroid traits are surely late evolutions, as hyper-europoid or hyper-mongoloid specializations) -
Y-E1-V13 is a downstream among other and WE DON'T KNOW where it was born WE KNOW it grew numerous i Balkans, it is not the same - (as said Maciamo long time ago)
WE ARE NOT SURE FOR NOW (I believe, based on my PRESENT knowledge) it came from Egypte only through Levant lands, someones suppose it could have reached Europe by sea too

Although main stream is that haplogroup E came to the Balkan from North Africa over Middle East, there are authors who think that this haplogroup could reach Balkan by sea. Maybe combination Middle East/Mediterranean sea.

There are minority authors who think that haplogroup E derives from Asia, or its ancestor DE. It is interesting that haplogroup D is now in East Asia (Japan, Tibet etc.). But haplogroup DE is 65000 years old. Haplogroup E is African, and carriers of Balkan E-V13 have Egypt origin (E-M78).

bicicleur
14-12-13, 15:39
I favour arrival to the Balkans some 7000-7500 years ago.
At least 7000 years, because of the ancient DNA found in Catalunia.
During that period there was some trade of obsidian between Sicily and the Lybian coast area.
The Sahara was becoming increasingly arid then.
I think that is when V-13 crossed the Mediterranean, maybe even with some cattle.
Iberian and Italian cattle seems to have some African cattle DNA.

albanopolis
14-12-13, 17:30
Although main stream is that haplogroup E came to the Balkan from North Africa over Middle East, there are authors who think that this haplogroup could reach Balkan by sea. Maybe combination Middle East/Mediterranean sea.

There are minority authors who think that haplogroup E derives from Asia, or its ancestor DE. It is interesting that haplogroup D is now in East Asia (Japan, Tibet etc.). But haplogroup DE is 65000 years old. Haplogroup E is African, and carriers of Balkan E-V13 have Egypt origin (E-M78).

I would say E-v13 folks have North African origin. Not neccesary Egypt. They could have crossed Gibraltar strait, or through Tunisia in Sicily. It does not look that they spread through land from north Africa. If they spread through land Turkey would have had higher E concentration.

kamani
14-12-13, 20:18
I have this idea that someone in Albania or more North in the Balkans, whose lineage is heavy in E1b1b, is probably blondish looking. This is because it mixed so early in time with the paleolithic European females; plus evolution had some time to work on adaptation to climate. Taking Kosovars for example, until I saw the studies I would have never guessed 45% E1b1b. I've met quite a few of them in real life and more than half are tall, green eyes with yellow-brown hair.

mihaitzateo
14-12-13, 21:43
I do not think is African.
Is present in Europe from before the Bronze Age.
EDIT:
Considering the moving of African people in Balkans and of the adaptation of African people,it was a very cold period in Europe,which I doubt African people could have survived in that period,considering how houses,clothes were in those times.

Garrick
14-12-13, 21:57
I do not think is African.
Is present in Europe from before the Bronze Age.
EDIT:
Considering the moving of African people in Balkans and of the adaptation of African people,it was a very cold period in Europe,which I doubt African people could have survived in that period,considering how houses,clothes were in those times.

E-V13 is Afric origin, from E-M78 subclade and it is known. There are a lot of different theories about moving and very different periods (from 7000 BC to 500 BC, even later).

I agree with Kamani maybe one of direction could be over Gibraltar.

adamo
14-12-13, 23:47
The e-v13 mutation either took place in western Anatolia but most probably on the Balkans, what in the earth are you guys talking about?

Garrick
14-12-13, 23:59
The e-v13 mutation either took place in western Anatolia but most probably on the Balkans, what in the earth are you guys talking about?

Members of forum talking about probability, because there are a lot of authors and ideas.

Mutation could be in the Middle East (as in Anatolia), maybe and in Egypt.

Probability is higher for Middle East or Anatolia than Egypt, but who knows?

Main route of haplogroup E-M78 is probably Egypt, Middle East, Anatolia, Bosphorus for Balkan. But sea could be alternative, or combination.

Direction over Gibraltar is not excluded. Again, as alternative or combination.

adamo
15-12-13, 03:06
The Balkans. You're forgetting the Balkans as an origin point for E-V13. Not north-Africa; maybe the western Anatolia.

Garrick
15-12-13, 11:52
The Balkans. You're forgetting the Balkans as an origin point for E-V13. Not north-Africa; maybe the western Anatolia.

We don't know. Maybe Balkans, maybe Anatolia, maybe Lebanon. We know that E-M78 is Egipt origin and that E-V13 derived from E-M78.

And it is high probability that first E-V13 in the Balkans were Negroids.

adamo
15-12-13, 12:32
Very wrong my dude.

Garrick
15-12-13, 12:51
Very wrong my dude.

It is easiest to say so.

However I speak based on facts.

In the Balkans were found skeletons dating about over 4000 years BC, and they have negroid characteristics, if you want I can put as theme.

And to be to clear, only for research purposes and facts.

I do not have a pre- Yes or No, and I'm not against these such findings.

Ike
15-12-13, 15:30
We also haven't excluded the possibility of multiple entries.

Some E-V13 may have come through Gibraltar 10 kya and it slowly spread across the western Europe. Then some may have come to Italy and Balkans by sea with Phoenicians 5 kya. Maybe Greek brought the most of current E-V13 some 3.5 kya.

There even may exist different subclades within E-V13, through which it could be identified.

Marko94
16-12-13, 21:59
We don't know. Maybe Balkans, maybe Anatolia, maybe Lebanon. We know that E-M78 is Egipt origin and that E-V13 derived from E-M78.

And it is high probability that first E-V13 in the Balkans were Negroids.
Negroids? I think you wanted to said "mulato".
You say the first bulgarian was negroid? XD?? because according to "Ike":"I always hear Albanians blabbing about E-V13 heritage, but there is more E-V13 people in Bulgaria in absolute numbers.

Garrick
16-12-13, 23:26
Negroids? I think you wanted to said "mulato".
You say the first bulgarian was negroid? XD?? because according to "Ike":"I always hear Albanians blabbing about E-V13 heritage, but there is more E-V13 people in Bulgaria in absolute numbers.


Where did you see that I mentioned the word Bulgaria?

Before 4,000 BC in the Balkans there were no borders, states, and nations.

It is more correct to say skeletons with negroid characteristics.

Possible and some sort of mulatto.

But this goal is to show that African civilization was advanced and had spread outside of Africa, African Neolithic culture were developed at that time.

albanopolis
17-12-13, 04:32
We don't know. Maybe Balkans, maybe Anatolia, maybe Lebanon. We know that E-M78 is Egipt origin and that E-V13 derived from E-M78.

And it is high probability that first E-V13 in the Balkans were Negroids.
Your problem is that you talk about 5000 yrs BC and have in mind today's Egyptians. Egypt was not a negroid country. Mummyes show that faraoes were I, R1b or E folks. Majority of Indians are R1a but do they look like slavs to you? EV13 predates 8000 yrs. Ballkan E people and Egyptian E people share a distant common ancester. But the same is true for swedish and arabs.

Garrick
17-12-13, 23:53
Your problem is that you talk about 5000 yrs BC and have in mind today's Egyptians. Egypt was not a negroid country. Mummyes show that faraoes were I, R1b or E folks. Majority of Indians are R1a but do they look like slavs to you? EV13 predates 8000 yrs. Ballkan E people and Egyptian E people share a distant common ancester. But the same is true for swedish and arabs.

Maybe your problem is you do not read carefully. We don't speak about haplogroups in Ancient Egypt, but about routs of spread (and time) of haplogroup E in Balkans and Europe generally. You can see that members of forum write about different routs (Middle East, Anatolia, Balkans; by sea from North Africa and Lebanon; over the Gibraltar etc.).

We don't know a lot of things and the science will discover with new findings. However, one of thing is sure. E-M78 (Egyptian origin) is ancestor of following subclades:

E-V12 Egypt, Sudan, etc.
E-V13 Balkans, and also South Europe, Lebanon etc.
E-V22 Egypt, Middle East, etc.
E-V65 North Africa, Spain, etc.

Is E-M78* still exist? Yes, carriers this haplogroup, although rare, were found in Egypt, and interestingly, two carriers of E-M78 found in the Balkans (two Albanians).

MOESAN
19-12-13, 00:03
[QUOTE=Garrick;422042]It is easiest to say so.

However I speak based on facts.

In the Balkans were found skeletons dating about over 4000 years BC, and they have negroid characteristics, if you want I can put as theme.


I'm intrerested - could you please give us the pictures and also the study (or abstract) about these skeletons, if possible?
concerning Y-E1b-V13, I thought (without proof) they were there already in Balkans about 5500/5000 BC and that their spreading in north and north-east Europe was tightly linked to the dispersal and colonization of neolithic agricultors (Y-G2 and some of the Y-J2) along the Donau river and farther later (future LBK and descendant cultures) -
first farmers had supposedly a light taste of 'negroid' features that disappeard quickly between Near-Eastern and Europe - if the bearers of E-V13 had had strong negroid features at their arrival in S-Europe we should be obliged to imagine they were firstly seldom enough and overwent by the autosomals of other people in their crossings in Balkans, being the success of their male Y-HG due to a serious drift (to prove!) - something as 20-25% of Y-E1-V13 if autosomally african could not disappear like that, or it was already "washed" by a caucasoid N-E African (egyptian) crossing ...
thanks beforehand

MOESAN
20-12-13, 16:34
just to add some details:
in a regions survey about Romania (but based upon scarce samples: around 100 or a bit less by region) I noticed that Bessarabia (extreme N-E, in it the romanian Moldovia, so close to the Black Sea and not far from S-W Ukraina) present veru different %s of some Y-HGs - we know no official country in Europe is completely homogenous but here I found strong enough the differences:
Y-R1b : 0,0% !!! (Rom- 10-14%) even if more samples will give more, it would not be too high I think -
Y-I-P37 (I2a1b?) only 17,2% (Rom- 20-26%) / Y-R1a only 6,8% (Rom- 16-18%) / Y-J2 : 34,4% (Rom- 12-13%) AND Y-E1b-V13: 34,5% (Rom- 15-18%) -
so: even if by a possible drift, Kossovars have higher %s of E-V13 than Bessarabians, we can see in Bessarabia a hotspot of AND Y-J2 AND Y-E-V13 - the linguistic affirmations Albanians have some phonetic traits that put them close to some people of Romania have maybe some basis? their supposed proximity (linguistic) to dacian and thracian does not seem contradicted by that; surely the Y-J2 could be broken down into two sorts (neolithic and bronze age) but here we can suppose the Starcevo agricultural group was rich for this two haplogoroups (Y-E + One of the Y-J2) and that the subsequent Cucuteni-Tripolje group was not too poor... the "southern caucasian" diverse types (which left non neglictible remnants in the today populations bording the western Black Sea shores) was surely heavy in these populations before Bronze (confirmed by anthropological surveys on Cucuteni-Tripolje), crossed in some regions with Y-I2a2 (maybe 'dinarids') - the South Caucasus population involved in later moves (I-E or not) and the Scythes could have send more same southern types but the study of modern populations cannot help us to assign precise periods to the origin of these types (only ancient sepultures) -
what appears is that Y-R1b was not among them as a principal component!!!
ll that relativises a bit the conclusions about armenians highlands types being the ancestors of all the first I-Eans... because the regions bordering Bessarabia, Romanian or not, show more of other Y-Hs (R1a, R1b) - or we have to consider I-Eans were a part of the first neolithic agricultors entering Balkans?

in some aspects this post concerns also the threads about first I-E and the link between them and haplo Y-R1b
good afternoon

Ike
21-12-13, 01:43
Your problem is that you talk about 5000 yrs BC and have in mind today's Egyptians. Egypt was not a negroid country. Mummyes show that faraoes were I, R1b or E folks. Majority of Indians are R1a but do they look like slavs to you? EV13 predates 8000 yrs. Ballkan E people and Egyptian E people share a distant common ancester. But the same is true for swedish and arabs.

Where did you get that? This is sucha white-supremacy statement :)

LeBrok
21-12-13, 02:59
just to add some details:
in a regions survey about Romania (but based upon scarce samples: around 100 or a bit less by region) I noticed that Bessarabia (extreme N-E, in it the romanian Moldovia, so close to the Black Sea and not far from S-W Ukraina) present veru different %s of some Y-HGs - we know no official country in Europe is completely homogenous but here I found strong enough the differences:
Y-R1b : 0,0% !!! (Rom- 10-14%) even if more samples will give more, it would not be too high I think -
Y-I-P37 (I2a1b?) only 17,2% (Rom- 20-26%) / Y-R1a only 6,8% (Rom- 16-18%) / Y-J2 : 34,4% (Rom- 12-13%) AND Y-E1b-V13: 34,5% (Rom- 15-18%) -

Bessarabia might be the descendants of Cucuteni Trypillian neolithic farming culture.

kamani
21-12-13, 04:33
just to add some details:
in a regions survey about Romania (but based upon scarce samples: around 100 or a bit less by region) I noticed that Bessarabia (extreme N-E, in it the romanian Moldovia, so close to the Black Sea and not far from S-W Ukraina) present veru different %s of some Y-HGs - we know no official country in Europe is completely homogenous but here I found strong enough the differences:
Y-R1b : 0,0% !!! (Rom- 10-14%) even if more samples will give more, it would not be too high I think -
Y-I-P37 (I2a1b?) only 17,2% (Rom- 20-26%) / Y-R1a only 6,8% (Rom- 16-18%) / Y-J2 : 34,4% (Rom- 12-13%) AND Y-E1b-V13: 34,5% (Rom- 15-18%)

This made me think: what if we're all wrong and E-v13 came to the Balkans from the Middle East but through the North of the Black sea route. Meaning: Levant, Caucasus, Ukraine, Romania. This would explain a lot of things, one of which is why Albanians are less North-African than the English in Dodecad, despite their high E-v13.
Another thing it would explain are the J2b hotspots above the Caucasus.

adamo
21-12-13, 10:00
That would be highly unlikely. In stead it is well established that the dominant subclade of north-African E3b in southeastern Europe (E-V13) took a Mediterranean maritime route, probably exiting Egypt from the levant and entering the general Albania/Greece region via turkey. There are neither significant signs of E3b (at all) on Crete (destroying a direct Egypt-to southern Greece theory) nor in the northern Balkans. If looking for an E3b trail crossing the Caucasus and then moving from Ukraine down into the Balkans, this theory is evidently a dead-end as well.

MOESAN
21-12-13, 13:56
Sorry I was not clear enough at the end of my last post (#101)
I want say: all the so called* 'mediterranean' types bordering the Black Sea are not by force a) Armenia highlands guys (and girls, other problem) - maybe a lot of them did not include Y-R1b bearers (Armenians include some greater %s) - the question of first I-E people still remains: steppic people accultured by Cucuteni-Tripolje OR by highlands "Armenians" OR by East Caspian agriculturalists (the same as "Armenians"?) or some I-E people are Cucuteni-Tripolje neolithic people accultured by steppic ones???

concerniing Y-EV13 I don't think it came through East Caspian and North Caspian or Caucasus -
it has big variance in western Dinaric Alps and coastal Dalmatia and has dense distribution almost everywhere in Greece, Alabania, Montenegro, and parts of Bulgaria and Romania - as others I think it is more western (since all times) than the ancient Y-J bearers - concerning ancient Y-G bearers I think so (look at Pakistan...) - but i'm not able to say if they come directly by sea (very possible) or by coastal "roads" of Levant -
in western and southern Europe (except Atlantic) Y-E-V13 seems linked to farmers communities and in eastern Europe it is the same: my point for the moment: E-V13 where acculturated by the first farmers from Anatolia (Y-G2 and some kind of Y-J2 bearers) in northern Greece Southern Balkans: I suppose their positive drift is linked to demographic positive effets linked to agriculture and maybe (if only a male mediated flow) by some military superiority upon more pacific anatolian farmers?
I think they were allied to more Y-G2 along the Donau river but to more Y-J2 people in eastern Balkans valleys or transylvanian plains and eastern Carpathians slopes (Starcevo and then Cucuteni-Triploje were rich of them I suppose) - it seems corresponding to the mix 'mediterranean (sardinian)' - 'caucasian' tongue we see climbing from Balkans to East-carpathians for finally erode itself into Bela-Russia... One can say too the 'caucasian' part was not so strong at first and was reinforced by later Y-J2 Bronze arrivals BUT I have no right to say this Y-EV13 were bearers by themselves of the 'mediterranean' component, maybe only responsible for a part of it - if male dominants they could have "possessed" the Y-G2 females... all that is only speculation for now -


*: a mount of things could be said about this physical anthropologic precise aspect

kamani
21-12-13, 20:11
it has big variance in western Dinaric Alps and coastal Dalmatia and has dense distribution almost everywhere in Greece, Alabania, Montenegro, and parts of Bulgaria and Romania - as others I think it is more western (since all times) than the ancient Y-J bearers - concerning ancient Y-G bearers I think so (look at Pakistan...) - but i'm not able to say if they come directly by sea (very possible) or by coastal "roads" of Levant -
in western and southern Europe (except Atlantic) Y-E-V13 seems linked to farmers communities and in eastern Europe it is the same: my point for the moment: E-V13 where acculturated by the first farmers from Anatolia (Y-G2 and some kind of Y-J2 bearers) in northern Greece Southern Balkans

agree. And I guess I did not explain my supposition fully: E-M35 and E-M78 came to the Balkans from the Caucasian-route (maybe late Paleolithic); then E-v13 was born in the Balkans and started spreading agriculture in the Neolithic, when it learned it from Middle-Eastern sources. We know that the E-M35 has been in the Upper Levant and has had a population expansion there because a lot of its subgroups are born there. If the movement happened in the paleolithic, this is the most probable because ship technology did not allow mass migrations back then and even the Anatolian route has no land connection with the Balkans. The scenario would be: end of LGM these people start moving north in the Caucasus along the Black Sea shores and after a few hundered years end up in the Balkans. They expand and settle there because that is as warm as they could get in their situation. Just a supposition..

Sile
21-12-13, 21:25
Sorry I was not clear enough at the end of my last post (#101)
I want say: all the so called* 'mediterranean' types bordering the Black Sea are not by force a) Armenia highlands guys (and girls, other problem) - maybe a lot of them did not include Y-R1b bearers (Armenians include some greater %s) - the question of first I-E people still remains: steppic people accultured by Cucuteni-Tripolje OR by highlands "Armenians" OR by East Caspian agriculturalists (the same as "Armenians"?) or some I-E people are Cucuteni-Tripolje neolithic people accultured by steppic ones???

concerniing Y-EV13 I don't think it came through East Caspian and North Caspian or Caucasus -
it has big variance in western Dinaric Alps and coastal Dalmatia and has dense distribution almost everywhere in Greece, Alabania, Montenegro, and parts of Bulgaria and Romania - as others I think it is more western (since all times) than the ancient Y-J bearers - concerning ancient Y-G bearers I think so (look at Pakistan...) - but i'm not able to say if they come directly by sea (very possible) or by coastal "roads" of Levant -
in western and southern Europe (except Atlantic) Y-E-V13 seems linked to farmers communities and in eastern Europe it is the same: my point for the moment: E-V13 where acculturated by the first farmers from Anatolia (Y-G2 and some kind of Y-J2 bearers) in northern Greece Southern Balkans: I suppose their positive drift is linked to demographic positive effets linked to agriculture and maybe (if only a male mediated flow) by some military superiority upon more pacific anatolian farmers?
I think they were allied to more Y-G2 along the Donau river but to more Y-J2 people in eastern Balkans valleys or transylvanian plains and eastern Carpathians slopes (Starcevo and then Cucuteni-Triploje were rich of them I suppose) - it seems corresponding to the mix 'mediterranean (sardinian)' - 'caucasian' tongue we see climbing from Balkans to East-carpathians for finally erode itself into Bela-Russia... One can say too the 'caucasian' part was not so strong at first and was reinforced by later Y-J2 Bronze arrivals BUT I have no right to say this Y-EV13 were bearers by themselves of the 'mediterranean' component, maybe only responsible for a part of it - if male dominants they could have "possessed" the Y-G2 females... all that is only speculation for now -


*: a mount of things could be said about this physical anthropologic precise aspect

Take care on terminology of some of these autosomal testing sites. east Mediterranean (pontid race) to them refers to Bulgaria and Anatolia region, levant is levant , middle-east is Mesopotamian areas

MOESAN
03-01-14, 00:37
Take care on terminology of some of these autosomal testing sites. east Mediterranean (pontid race) to them refers to Bulgaria and Anatolia region, levant is levant , middle-east is Mesopotamian areas

I do with the terminology proposed to me by the Dodecad pooling - at the fine grain level all these groupings can be broken down (as by example 'gedrosia'-'caucasus' for 'west-asian') , even if they show a solid common genetic basis one with another- as an amateur of ancient physical anthropology I can tell you too much subdivisions don't give too much help - there is no clear break between some types of Levant, Mesopotamia, and say, someones of Spain - the most of the time we speak about overlapping populations and crossings more or less complicated - it is clearer to do with phenotypes (results for a big part of autosomals genes controling external features) than to do with regional or national means which "drown" these phenotypes, but at the blind level of chemico-physical (?) analysis of a genome, it is hard to go in the details as some blocks of autosomals are typical and poorly distributed and other more common between neighbouring populations

MOESAN
03-01-14, 00:51
I fear my comparisons could harm some Spaniards - what I mean is that at the individual phenotypic level, not only Iberians but too some British people or Dutches can show 'indo-aghan' features or other so called 'mediterranean' type (perhaps not so complete but very close) what is evident when their autosomals package would hardly reveal a so precise partial heritage; the global metric analysis with "distances" and other statistical methods cannot be so precise because they are based uniquely on populations taken as a group - the example could concern as well other types which have some reality -

adamo
09-01-14, 09:12
For E3b*, I feel in my loins an origin in the Horn of Africa region ( Ethiopia/Somalia) before spreading from Sudan to Egypt. From there it would head west, eventually reaching the Algeria/morocco region, via more downstream E3b subclades. The Horn of Africa is the home of basal E3b to me. For B, I postulate a Central African origin.

Savall
16-04-14, 02:09
It's a typical Balkan haplogroup E-V13 that diffused throughout Europe. It seems to be much more prominent in Southern Europe, especially Southern Italy and Southeastern Europe. It's a typical Mediterranean haplogroup, not middle eastern (though can be found at low rates in Anatolia/Caucasus).

Ike
17-04-14, 00:21
But it could emerged in Middle East, spread throughout the Europe during millenniums of peace and prosperity, and then become extinct in Middle East for various reason. Until we excavate, we won't know.

Italian Norman
17-05-14, 19:08
E-V13 likely originated somewhere between Aegean Turkey and Serbia, according to STR diversity.
E-M215 is Eurasian in origin. The only underived sample of E-M215* was found in the Khorasan region of North-Eastern Iran by Di Cristofaro et al. (2013). All the previously identified East African and Yemeni samples said to be underived E-M215* have been shown by Trombetta et al. (2011) to be in the sibling sub-clade of E-M35, that is E-M281.

enzstarr1963
17-05-14, 20:58
Hi,

I am a e1b1b1a1b E-V13 and my father's family is from the Black Forest in Germany(Wagenstadt). Wagenstadt sits on the Western edge of the Black Forest. To tell you the truth I thought the lab got my results were wrong. What I am wondering is how my V13 haplogroup got to Wagenstadt?

Maleth
18-05-14, 20:21
Hi,

I am a e1b1b1a1b E-V13 and my father's family is from the Black Forest in Germany(Wagenstadt). Wagenstadt sits on the Western edge of the Black Forest. To tell you the truth I thought the lab got my results were wrong. What I am wondering is how my V13 haplogroup got to Wagenstadt?

Hi enzstarr1963, I am also E-V13 and from Malta. My SNP map on FTdna shows a cluster in Southwest Germany and east England. Our family name is recorded to have entered the Islands in 1200's soon after the Hohenstaufen period (Swabian era)

albanopolis
28-07-14, 15:30
Maybe your problem is you do not read carefully. We don't speak about haplogroups in Ancient Egypt, but about routs of spread (and time) of haplogroup E in Balkans and Europe generally. You can see that members of forum write about different routs (Middle East, Anatolia, Balkans; by sea from North Africa and Lebanon; over the Gibraltar etc.).

We don't know a lot of things and the science will discover with new findings. However, one of thing is sure. E-M78 (Egyptian origin) is ancestor of following subclades:

E-V12 Egypt, Sudan, etc.
E-V13 Balkans, and also South Europe, Lebanon etc.
E-V22 Egypt, Middle East, etc.
E-V65 North Africa, Spain, etc.

Is E-M78* still exist? Yes, carriers this haplogroup, although rare, were found in Egypt, and interestingly, two carriers of E-M78 found in the Balkans (two Albanians).

Its not a surprise the existence of Egyptian strain of haplogroup E in Albania. It could be more than that. The problem is the presence of Egyptian E in Albania is not necessary ancient. A number of colored people in Albania maintain that they originate from Egypt. If that is true then it could be Gypsy miscegenation. So your theory of direct Egyption origin of E-V13 Albanians is in doubt.

Maleth
30-07-14, 18:23
We don't know. Maybe Balkans, maybe Anatolia, maybe Lebanon. We know that E-M78 is Egipt origin and that E-V13 derived from E-M78.

And it is high probability that first E-V13 in the Balkans were Negroids.

If this was true then the least you would expect is that Kosovars and Peleponese reaching nearly 50% of e-v13 would be at least be half cast, which is not the case. Not even most North Africans are considered Negroid. The mutation from e-78 to E-V13 is believed to have happened in a time when homosapien sapiens where all dark skinned anyway so skin colour is not much of a factor to determine haplogroups.

albanopolis
30-07-14, 19:04
We don't know. Maybe Balkans, maybe Anatolia, maybe Lebanon. We know that E-M78 is Egipt origin and that E-V13 derived from E-M78.

And it is high probability that first E-V13 in the Balkans were Negroids.

Agree! The first E-v13 was negroid, and later the negroid part of E-v13 became non negroid. At least this is your judgement. The problem is there is no negroid E-v13. There is negroid E. And the negroid E is missing in Europe. E-M78 Egyptian is not necessary negroid. Can you explain how did you deduct the conclusion that first e-v13 was negroid?

Maleth
30-07-14, 19:42
Agree! The first E-v13 was negroid, and later the negroid part of E-v13 became non negroid. At least this is your judgement. The problem is there is no negroid E-v13. There is negroid E. And the negroid E is missing in Europe. E-M78 Egyptian is not necessary negroid. Can you explain how did you deduct the conclusion that first e-v13 was negroid?

According to main stream believe all homosapiens sapiens were negroid. Diet and climate and the mixing with other homosapiens could have changed the Physiognomy. Not sure maybe new theories would come out, but I think thats what we are led to believe so far.

albanopolis
30-07-14, 20:40
According to main stream believe all homosapiens sapiens were negroid. Diet and climate and the mixing with other homosapiens could have changed the Physiognomy. Not sure maybe new theories would come out, but I think thats what we are led to believe so far.
With negroid I don't mean black. I mean subsaharan type of people. Negroid is an evolved spices,is not the original man who walked on earth. E v-13 is a relatively young haplogroup so its hard to believe that it was black and then whitened. Mediterranean latitude of E-v13 is the same like South Afrika latitude (33 degrees) and blacks of South Afrika have a long way to go to whiten so the theory of geography and skin is doubtful. white skin is work of evolution. Even if the first man in Afrika was black it might not have been Negroid. So it makes absolutely no sense to declare that first e-v13 was negroid and then became Caucasoid.

Maleth
30-07-14, 21:06
With negroid I don't mean black. I mean subsaharan type of people. Negroid is an evolved spices,is not the original man who walked on earth. E v-13 is a relatively young haplogroup so its hard to believe that it was black and then whitened. Mediterranean latitude of E-v13 is the same like South Afrika latitude (33 degrees) and blacks of South Afrika have a long way to go to whiten so the theory of geography and skin is doubtful. white skin is work of evolution. Even if the first man in Afrika was black it might not have been Negroid. So it makes absolutely no sense to declare that first e-v13 was negroid and then became Caucasoid.

I agree with you, what I am referring to that ALL modern haplogroups started off as SubSaharan/Black/Negroid (not much difference in terminology) and just mutated to what they are today. Some have been out longer then others. Its a long trail of sequences and the origins are more or less the same and just evolved by time. Its my believe too that when E-V13 mutated it the clan that bore this new mutation would have lost its adam look (so to speak).

I think Australians Aborigines were amongst the first to make the trip out of Africa and they retain much of the features. So the longer being out of Africa does not mean looking more different. It all depends on who you interbreed with and climatic conditions food and so on - like you said evolution, changing depending on the circumstances.

World English Dictionary



Negroid (ˈniːɡrɔɪd)





— adj


1.
denoting, relating to, or belonging to a darker-compexioned supposed racial group of mankind. This group includes the indigenous peoples of Africa south of the Sahara, their descendants elsewhere, and some Melanesian peoples





— n


2.
a member of this racial group





usage The word Negroid and other words ending in -oid relating to racial groups, such as Mongoloid , are controversial scientifically and best avoided. If you need to refer to ethnicity, it is preferable to use the specific name of the people or peoples concerned

MOESAN
01-08-14, 14:00
I agree with you, what I am referring to that ALL modern haplogroups started off as SubSaharan/Black/Negroid (not much difference in terminology) and just mutated to what they are today. Some have been out longer then others. Its a long trail of sequences and the origins are more or less the same and just evolved by time. Its my believe too that when E-V13 mutated it the clan that bore this new mutation would have lost its adam look (so to speak).

I think Australians Aborigines were amongst the first to make the trip out of Africa and they retain much of the features. So the longer being out of Africa does not mean looking more different. It all depends on who you interbreed with and climatic conditions food and so on - like you said evolution, changing depending on the circumstances.

World English Dictionary



Negroid (ˈniːɡrɔɪd)





— adj


1.
denoting, relating to, or belonging to a darker-compexioned supposed racial group of mankind. This group includes the indigenous peoples of Africa south of the Sahara, their descendants elsewhere, and some Melanesian peoples





— n


2.
a member of this racial group





usage The word Negroid and other words ending in -oid relating to racial groups, such as Mongoloid , are controversial scientifically and best avoided. If you need to refer to ethnicity, it is preferable to use the specific name of the people or peoples concerned





I agree in part
but I prefer keep the differenciation between the terms 'negroid' and 'black' - the last concerns only the skin colour
the first refers to a kit of special features underwent by the Subsaharian populations, at different levels of depth, and which make them different from the earlier men we are descendants of, as other modifications occurred among the easy-called 'europoids' or 'mongoloids' without speak of the 'australoid' people that keep on as you said a lot of "primitive" traits -
first men absolutely "black": I don't know...
as you said the date of separation of population is not always a proof of more modifications - but here we have matter to discuss and I go out of the topic

kamani
01-08-14, 17:22
In another thread here, the sample of the Thracian commoner from Bronze-Age Bulgaria was around 5% North-African, no sub-saharan admixture. Today there is nothing left of that 5%, because of so much mixing since 2000 BC. If you want to see someone with 5% North-African admixture, look at the Spanish, lol.

Maleth
01-08-14, 22:48
first men absolutely "black": I don't know...

Gone to:- http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29434-SLC24A5-light-skin-pigmentation-allele-origin?p=436292#post436292

Maleth
01-08-14, 22:57
If you want to see someone with 5% North-African admixture, look at the Spanish, lol.

5% or whatever the real percentage of direct NA admixture in modern Spanish society is only a tiny ingredient in the minestrone of genetics and would hardly determine a particular look on a general basis :)

noUseForAname
26-08-14, 19:53
E1b1b is 42,000 years ago and it was already in southeast Balkans, then also E-V13 who is 10,000 BC.

It is argued in Eupedia that E1b1b (42,000 years BC) came to south east Europe straight from very north west Africa and not all way around through Anatolia and that they didn't came from Egypt. So that would mean that E-V13 didn't came from anywhere they were already in south east Europe since 42,000 years BC.

noUseForAname
26-09-14, 04:26
Everybody was black when the first Hgs left Africa, people changed to lighter coloured skin over time depending on where they lived. The skin colour changes pigmentation to take in vitamin D.

This not might be true, i have read on some religious documents that first humanoid ADAM was neither black or white, rather created from the earths ground and water from all around the earth, so all the mixed type of grounds like red, brown, black, white etc. Therefore ADAM was either mixed with most types of colors. it is also scientifically proven that the firts humanoid came from Central Afrika...

noUseForAname
26-09-14, 04:33
Haplogroup E-V13 isn't Albanian nor it belongs exclusively to them, actually highest diversity of E-V13 is in today Bosnia according to Steven Bird.
And your reasoning is that of a kid.

E-V13 is at the lowest rate in today Bosnia, today Bosnia has I2a of 56% and 10% E-V13 please se below...



Region/Haplogroup

I1

I2*/I2a

I2b

R1a

R1b

G

J2

J*/J1

E-V13



Albania

2

12

1.5

9

16

1.5

19.5

2

27.5



Kosovo Albanians

5.5

2.5

0

4.5

21

0

16.5

0

47.5



Albanians (Macedonia)

1

9


1.5

18.8

1.6

21.9


39.1



Greece (Peloponnese)









47



Greece (South)

3

20


2.2

19.6

5.5



43.5



Greece (North)

2

12


19

14.6

5.2



35.4



Greece (Crete)


13


8.8

17


39


8.8



Greece (Thrace)


19


22

12


19


19



Greece (ethnic Greeks)


19


16

11.7

9

17


19



Macedonia (ethnic Slavic)

1

33

1.5

5.1

15.2

1.5



24.1



Bulgaria

4

20

2

17

11

5

11

3

23.5



Bosniaks

4

56

0

16

3

2

3.5

0.5

10



Bosnian Croats

0

71

2

12

2

1

1

0

9



Bosnian Serbs

2.5

31

2.5

13.5

6

1

8.5

0

22.5



Croatia

5.5

37

1

24

8.5

2

6

1

10



Serbia

8.5

33

0.5

16

8

2

8

0.5

18



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

noUseForAname
26-09-14, 05:05
Haplogroup E-V13 isn't Albanian nor it belongs exclusively to them, actually highest diversity of E-V13 is in today Bosnia according to Steven Bird.
And your reasoning is that of a kid.

E-V13 is at the lowest rate in today Bosnia, today Bosnia has I2a of 56% and 10% E-V13 please se below...



Region/Haplogroup
I1
I2*/I2a
I2b
R1a
R1b
G
J2
J*/J1
E-V13


Albania
2
12
1.5
9
16
1.5
19.5
2
27.5


Kosovo Albanians
5.5
2.5
0
4.5
21
0
16.5
0
47.5


Albanians (Macedonia)
1
9

1.5
18.8
1.6
21.9

39.1


Greece (Peloponnese)








47


Greece (South)
3
20

2.2
19.6
5.5


43.5


Greece (North)
2
12

19
14.6
5.2


35.4


Greece (Crete)

13

8.8
17

39

8.8


Greece (Thrace)

19

22
12

19

19


Greece (ethnic Greeks)

19

16
11.7
9
17

19


Macedonia (ethnic Slavic)
1
33
1.5
5.1
15.2
1.5


24.1


Bulgaria
4
20
2
17
11
5
11
3
23.5


Bosniaks
4
56
0
16
3
2
3.5
0.5
10


Bosnian Croats
0
71
2
12
2
1
1
0
9


Bosnian Serbs
2.5
31
2.5
13.5
6
1
8.5
0
22.5


Croatia
5.5
37
1
24
8.5
2
6
1
10


Serbia
8.5
33
0.5
16
8
2
8
0.5
18


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

noUseForAname
26-09-14, 05:30
I have this idea that someone in Albania or more North in the Balkans, whose lineage is heavy in E1b1b, is probably blondish looking. This is because it mixed so early in time with the paleolithic European females; plus evolution had some time to work on adaptation to climate. Taking Kosovars for example, until I saw the studies I would have never guessed 45% E1b1b. I've met quite a few of them in real life and more than half are tall, green eyes with yellow-brown hair.

Very true, according to the studies Kosovar Albanians have the highest in the region 47.5% E-V13... please see some additional info below..
no one knows what colour E-V13 has since it is 10,000 years in Europe (pretty long time ago) and E is 54,000 years ago, we would never know what colour was at that time.
The very first human created is ADAM and based on facts nowadays he came from Central Africa and according to religious documents he was neither black or white, rather created from the earths ground and water from all around the earth, so all the mixed type of ground like red, brown, black, white etc.

If we carefully look at the map and the highest percentages of E-V13, We can see that on the most areas where current ethnic Albanians live E-V13 has its highest percentages, Kosovo 47.5%, Albanians from Macedonia 39.1%, south Greece 43.5% (were ethnic Albanians called Arvanitas or Arberesh live), north Greece 35.4%, Arvanitas and Peloponnese area 47%% (it is known that Arvanitas lived in Peloponnese area too), and Albania with 27.5%. While the rest of the Greece (were traditionally is known that no Albanians live there) as of those from Crete have only 8.8%, Thrace 19%, and the rest of Greece overall, ethnic Greeks of today have only 19%, it also shows that they are much more Slavicized than Albanians with R1a 16% and I2a of 19%. In addition, based on a map shown with a percentage of E-V13, south Serbia (were ethnic Albanians live) has higher percentage of E-V13, and south east and north east part of Montenegro (were ethnic Albanians live) have also higher percentage.

1: Arvanitas based on Southwest Greece (Arberesh, who spoke a dialect of the Albanian language). It is also argued that Arvanitas were also on Peloponnese area of Greece.
2: Epirus (Where Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg declared that he is a descendant of Epirus king of Pyrrhus),
3: Dardania (current Kosovo)
4: Current Albania
5: West (current) Macedonia.
6: the Very South of current Serbia
7: South East and north East part of current Montenegro

R1b (kelts, 22,000 years) J2 (middle-east 15,000 years) I1 (Vikings Scandinavians 20,000 years) R1a (Slavs - Russia, Poland 23,000 years) I2a1 (Sardinia, Dalmatia 8,000 years). E (54,000 years), E1b1b (42,000 years BC). E-V13 (10,000 years BC)



Region/Haplogroup

I1

I2*/I2a

I2b

R1a

R1b

G

J2

J*/J1

E-V13



Albania

2

12

1.5

9

16

1.5

19.5

2

27.5



Kosovo Albanians

5.5

2.5

0

4.5

21

0

16.5

0

47.5



Albanians (Macedonia)

1

9


1.5

18.8

1.6

21.9


39.1



Greece (Peloponnese)









47



Greece (South)

3

20


2.2

19.6

5.5



43.5



Greece (North)

2

12


19

14.6

5.2



35.4



Greece (Crete)


13


8.8

17


39


8.8



Greece (Thrace)


19


22

12


19


19



Greece (ethnic Greeks)


19


16

11.7

9

17


19



Macedonia (ethnic Slavic)

1

33

1.5

5.1

15.2

1.5



24.1



Bulgaria

4

20

2

17

11

5

11

3

23.5



Bosniaks

4

56

0

16

3

2

3.5

0.5

10



Bosnian Croats

0

71

2

12

2

1

1

0

9



Bosnian Serbs

2.5

31

2.5

13.5

6

1

8.5

0

22.5



Croatia

5.5

37

1

24

8.5

2

6

1

10



Serbia

8.5

33

0.5

16

8

2

8

0.5

18




In contrast, another major discovery relevant to the study of E-V13 origins was the announcement in Lacan et al. (2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFLacanKayserRicautBrucato2011)) that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were in haplogroup G2a (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_G2a_(Y-DNA)&action=edit&redlink=1), which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age.

Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFCrucianiLa_FrattaTrombettaSantolamazza2 007))

References:
http://www.jogg.info/32/bird.htm
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group

noUseForAname
26-09-14, 06:27
It is easiest to say so.

However I speak based on facts.

In the Balkans were found skeletons dating about over 4000 years BC, and they have negroid characteristics, if you want I can put as theme.

And to be to clear, only for research purposes and facts.

I do not have a pre- Yes or No, and I'm not against these such findings.


1: please show the source about the skeleton?
2: if true what DNA had the so called negroid skeleton?

please see the sources below...

In contrast, another major discovery relevant to the study of E-V13 origins was the announcement in Lacan et al. (2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFLacanKayserRicautBrucato2011)) that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were in haplogroup G2a (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_G2a_(Y-DNA)&action=edit&redlink=1), which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age.

Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFCrucianiLa_FrattaTrombettaSantolamazza2 007))

E-V13 is (10,000 years) and you can see from the map that it was not based either in Egypt nor Africa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68

If you see the map of E1b then we are definitely on the other page, this is E1b1b (42,000 years) and E (54,000 years), no one knows about what color were at that time.
The very first human created is and a descanted of all humans ADAM and based on facts nowadays he came from Central Africa and according to religious documents he was neither black or white, rather created from the earths ground and water from all around the earth, so all the mixed type of ground like red, brown, black, white etc. So it is argued its skin color was mixture of all main colors.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml

noUseForAname
26-09-14, 06:33
It is easiest to say so.

However I speak based on facts.

In the Balkans were found skeletons dating about over 4000 years BC, and they have negroid characteristics, if you want I can put as theme.

And to be to clear, only for research purposes and facts.

I do not have a pre- Yes or No, and I'm not against these such findings.


1: please show the source about the skeleton?
2: if true what DNA had the so called negroid skeleton?

please see the sources below...

In contrast, another major discovery relevant to the study of E-V13 origins was the announcement in Lacan et al. (2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFLacanKayserRicautBrucato2011)) that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were in haplogroup G2a (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_G2a_(Y-DNA)&action=edit&redlink=1), which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age.

Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFCrucianiLa_FrattaTrombettaSantolamazza2 007))

E-V13 is (10,000 years) and you can see from the map that it was not based either in Egypt nor Africa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68

If you see the map of E1b then we are definitely on the other page, this is E1b1b (42,000 years) and E (54,000 years), no one knows about what color were at that time.
The very first human created is and a descanted of all humans ADAM and based on facts nowadays he came from Central Africa and according to religious documents he was neither black or white, rather created from the earths ground and water from all around the earth, so all the mixed type of ground like red, brown, black, white etc. So it is argued its skin color was mixture of all main colors.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml

Yetos
26-09-14, 07:29
1: please show the source about the skeleton?
2: if true what DNA had the so called negroid skeleton?

please see the sources below...

In contrast, another major discovery relevant to the study of E-V13 origins was the announcement in Lacan et al. (2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFLacanKayserRicautBrucato2011)) that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were in haplogroup G2a (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_G2a_(Y-DNA)&action=edit&redlink=1), which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age.

Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFCrucianiLa_FrattaTrombettaSantolamazza2 007))

E-V13 is (10,000 years) and you can see from the map that it was not based either in Egypt nor Africa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68

If you see the map of E1b then we are definitely on the other page, this is E1b1b (42,000 years) and E (54,000 years), no one knows about what color were at that time.
The very first human created is and a descanted of all humans ADAM and based on facts nowadays he came from Central Africa and according to religious documents he was neither black or white, rather created from the earths ground and water from all around the earth, so all the mixed type of ground like red, brown, black, white etc. So it is argued its skin color was mixture of all main colors.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml


I doupt that the iberian E is common with balcanic and italian E
balcanic and italian E is from Levant/Cyprus, the oldest found in konya 4000 ky,

there is an analysis from dienekes,

http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html
http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2009/05/y-chromosome-haplogroup-e-m78-subtyping.html

noUseForAname
26-09-14, 09:11
I doupt that the iberian E is common with balcanic and italian E
balcanic and italian E is from Levant/Cyprus, the oldest found in konya 4000 ky,

there is an analysis from dienekes,

http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html
http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2009/05/y-chromosome-haplogroup-e-m78-subtyping.html

If you mean "you doubt" than its just your opinion...I dont do opinions here but rather try to only present scientific facts...

i addition i dont understand "balcanic and italian E is from Levant/Cyprus" Do you maybe mean E haplogroup is from Cyprys?

I have have already commented on that blog with some scientific facts....

Eldritch
26-09-14, 10:16
I doupt that the iberian E is common with balcanic and italian E
balcanic and italian E is from Levant/Cyprus, the oldest found in konya 4000 ky,

there is an analysis from dienekes,

http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html
http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2009/05/y-chromosome-haplogroup-e-m78-subtyping.html
The Iberian one is E-V13, like the one found in Greece.

Ike
26-09-14, 13:08
The Iberian one is E-V13, like the one found in Greece.

Are we sure there are no E-V13 subgroups? That info would help a lot.

Eldritch
26-09-14, 13:12
Are we sure there are no E-V13 subgroups? That info would help a lot.

The Ave07 haplotype was also compared with current Eb1b1a2 haplotypes previously published (10–14). It appeared identical at the seven markers tested to five Albanian, two Bosnian, one Greek, one Italian, one Sicilian, two Corsican, and two Provence French samples and are thus placed on the same node of the E1b1b1a1b-V13 network as eastern, central, and western Mediterranean haplotypes (Fig. S1).

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/11/y-haplogroups-e-v13-and-g2a-in.html

noUseForAname
26-09-14, 18:14
The Iberian one is E-V13, like the one found in Greece.

there are scientific inconsistencies to support that claim, have a look of Maciamo (the creator of Eupedia) noted...

http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Cobol19 http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=380602#post380602)
I think E1b1b was probably hanging out in West Asia for a while until the movement happened to Europe, and among them there was likely J2 men as well.



"MAciamo"
That was what I thought before too. But that does not explain why E1b1b has a higher frequency than J2 in Western Iberia or the Southern Balkans. J2 is far more common than E1b1b in West Asia (ratio of almost 3:1). It also fails to explain why there is so little E-V13 in West Asia and the Levant. Furthermore, if Neolithic farmers and herders were only G2a, then how did E1b1b reach Iberia at all from the Middle East ?

Finally, the Dodecad admixture found a common Mediterranean element for South Europeans, North Africans and Middle Easterners alike. It is almost undeniable that this Mediterranean element comprises most or all E1b1b in Europe, and some E1b1b in North Africa (the E-M78, I would think). The best correlation is E-M78 + T + I(xI1/I2b). If European E1b1b came through Southwest Asia (Levant) and West Asia (Anatolia, Caucasus) and mixed with J2 or other haplogroups there before reaching Europe, we would expect much more West Asian and Southwest Asian admixture in Europeans. Instead, there is more Mediterranean admixture.

Ike
26-09-14, 20:01
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/11/y-haplogroups-e-v13-and-g2a-in.html

I was not asking about that specific samples, but in general?

Yetos
26-09-14, 20:35
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/11/y-haplogroups-e-v13-and-g2a-in.html

7 markers?
ave07?

are realizing the same?

Maleth
26-09-14, 21:35
Just some food for thought. I strongly believe that when one looks at the whole picture I would very much be inclined to believe that E-V13 mutation happened somewhere in Europe. The 1% found in some parts of North Africa are imports due to Greek settlements in Egypt (Which has been happening as far back as the Pharaohs era) and slaves brought in by North African corsairs when raiding South Europe. (Which were frequent and took whole villages away as slaves). Also there could have been settlements of Jews that were expelled from South Europe and found refuge in north Africa. (Example E-V13 is most common amongst the Jewish communities in Libya.)

Remember that E-V13 reaches 10% in some parts of central Europe, so its not that rare, besides it reaches more or less same percentages (even higher) in Scandinavia and Britain as those found in the north Africa.

Eldritch
26-09-14, 21:57
I was not asking about that specific samples, but in general?
I think yes but there's not much studies on E-V13, in Iberia today isn't even common.

7 markers?
ave07?

are realizing the same?
Not optimal resolution but surely better than nothing, as you saw there were also two Greeks.

Angela
26-09-14, 23:25
Just some general comments:

The "young" age of E-V13 is irrelevant in terms of its origin. First of all, most of the R1b and R1a and I1 clades in Europe are "young". Most y dna lineages die out; all we see is the TMRCA of the lucky survivors. We don't see all the sister, or brother, if you will, lineages.

What we know, as Dienekes pointed out, is that the E-V13 in the Balkans experienced a large expansion in the Bronze Age, and from a small group of founders, apparently, as it has very little diversity. For some reason, it was in a very lucky position. It might be that it was connected in some way with bronze weapons. It's also probable that the E-V13 in Italy is due to migration from the Balkans or Greece.

None of those things tell us when it arrived in the Balkans, or from where, but the phylogeny certainly provides evidence that it came from the Near East. (I don't know where this Caucasus thing comes from...the yDna most associated with the Caucasus is "G" and "J", not "E".)

It's also possible, as some early papers posited, that E-V13 arrived in southeastern Europe in the Mesolithic, but as time passes and all the ancient dna from that period turns out to be some form of I2, that's looking less and less likely. Still, we don't have any yDna from the Aegean yet, so there's still a chance that some moved into that area in the Mesolithic. After all, it's hardly an insurmountable distance.

What is also true is that whether it had reached the periphery of south-eastern Europe by the time of the Mesolithic, or accompanied the G farmers directly from the Near East, or both, the findings in Neolithic contexts in other early Cardial sites means that it was part of the early Neolithic expansion. It may have been and probably was in the southeast from that time, as the samples also show. What we are seeing in the Balkans today is that a lot of the E-V13 is from a lineage which, as I said, underwent a massive expansion during the Bronze Age. Whether the lineages in southern Germany, for example, are part of the same group or descendents of different sub-clades or both, we don't know yet know.

Oh, it's possible that the specific "E-V13" mutation took place in Europe, but I currently don't see evidence for that, given that there are non-negligible amounts in the Near East even after the massive expansions there of J1 and J2. Let's not forget that G2 has also been superseded in the Near East. It survives in the Caucasus in such high numbers mainly, in my opinion, because it is an area of refuge.

See the following for a map of the spread of the y lineages:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/E1b1bRoute.png

I would also caution against attempts to tie ydna to autosomal percentages too strictly. We all have mothers too. The English are close to 50% EEF, and yet they have negligible amounts of E and J and T. Plus, by the time that the R1b and R1a men got to Europe, we don't know how much "Mediterranean" ancestry they carried.

One final thing as to I2a. It's clear that it was a fisher/hunter gatherer lineage present in Europe before the arrival of farming. However, some clades apparently made the transition to farming very early, perhaps from a group around the Danube Gorges, and became part of the Neolithic farmer world, to show up in Sardinia and Iberia, for example. Others may have fled into more northern areas, only to be neolithicized by the Indo-Europeans perhaps and then return with the Slavs. Whether some subclades remained in the more southern reaches of the Balkans we don't know. None of this will become clearer until we have ancient dna from the relevant groups at a reasonable level of resolution.

For a general overview of all of this, I often recommend Jean Manco's Ancestral Journeys. As the new discoveries are coming fast and furiously, I am sure she is already preparing a new edition, but it's an excellent book and a good primer for this field of study, whether she turns out to be correct in every particular or not.

Maleth
27-09-14, 22:03
This not might be true, i have read on some religious documents that first humanoid ADAM was neither black or white, rather created from the earths ground and water from all around the earth, so all the mixed type of grounds like red, brown, black, white etc. Therefore ADAM was either mixed with most types of colors.

This sounds a little bit like mythology and not hard science in my opinion!


it is also scientifically proven that the firts humanoid came from Central Afrika...

In that case he would not be much different from the present people as the climatic conditions would have determined to see the Physiognomy we see today in order to be able to survive the local climatic conditions.

Maleth
27-09-14, 22:17
Just some general comments:

The "young" age of E-V13 is irrelevant in terms of its origin. First of all, most of the R1b and R1a and I1 clades in Europe are "young". Most y dna lineages die out; all we see is the TMRCA of the lucky survivors. We don't see all the sister, or brother, if you will, lineages.

What we know, as Dienekes pointed out, is that the E-V13 in the Balkans experienced a large expansion in the Bronze Age, and from a small group of founders, apparently, as it has very little diversity. For some reason, it was in a very lucky position. It might be that it was connected in some way with bronze weapons. It's also probable that the E-V13 in Italy is due to migration from the Balkans or Greece.

None of those things tell us when it arrived in the Balkans, or from where, but the phylogeny certainly provides evidence that it came from the Near East. (I don't know where this Caucasus thing comes from...the yDna most associated with the Caucasus is "G" and "J", not "E".)

It's also possible, as some early papers posited, that E-V13 arrived in southeastern Europe in the Mesolithic, but as time passes and all the ancient dna from that period turns out to be some form of I2, that's looking less and less likely. Still, we don't have any yDna from the Aegean yet, so there's still a chance that some moved into that area in the Mesolithic. After all, it's hardly an insurmountable distance.

What is also true is that whether it had reached the periphery of south-eastern Europe by the time of the Mesolithic, or accompanied the G farmers directly from the Near East, or both, the findings in Neolithic contexts in other early Cardial sites means that it was part of the early Neolithic expansion. It may have been and probably was in the southeast from that time, as the samples also show. What we are seeing in the Balkans today is that a lot of the E-V13 is from a lineage which, as I said, underwent a massive expansion during the Bronze Age. Whether the lineages in southern Germany, for example, are part of the same group or descendents of different sub-clades or both, we don't know yet know.

Oh, it's possible that the specific "E-V13" mutation took place in Europe, but I currently don't see evidence for that, given that there are non-negligible amounts in the Near East even after the massive expansions there of J1 and J2. Let's not forget that G2 has also been superseded in the Near East. It survives in the Caucasus in such high numbers mainly, in my opinion, because it is an area of refuge.

See the following for a map of the spread of the y lineages:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/E1b1bRoute.png

I would also caution against attempts to tie ydna to autosomal percentages too strictly. We all have mothers too. The English are close to 50% EEF, and yet they have negligible amounts of E and J and T. Plus, by the time that the R1b and R1a men got to Europe, we don't know how much "Mediterranean" ancestry they carried.

One final thing as to I2a. It's clear that it was a fisher/hunter gatherer lineage present in Europe before the arrival of farming. However, some clades apparently made the transition to farming very early, perhaps from a group around the Danube Gorges, and became part of the Neolithic farmer world, to show up in Sardinia and Iberia, for example. Others may have fled into more northern areas, only to be neolithicized by the Indo-Europeans perhaps and then return with the Slavs. Whether some subclades remained in the more southern reaches of the Balkans we don't know. None of this will become clearer until we have ancient dna from the relevant groups at a reasonable level of resolution.

For a general overview of all of this, I often recommend Jean Manco's Ancestral Journeys. As the new discoveries are coming fast and furiously, I am sure she is already preparing a new edition, but it's an excellent book and a good primer for this field of study, whether she turns out to be correct in every particular or not.

nicely explained Angela thanks. Cannot wait to have more and more results. According to E-V13 Eupidia Map provided the E-V13 around the agean sea is very coastal in Turkey and looks like an extension from Greece and the balkan region (In this case) and not the other way round. However I do know that one cannot rely solely on maybe more recent expansions from a particular geographical location (in this case the Balkans). Its even more strange that the oldest E-v13 yet to be found comes from Iberia. If not mistaken the oldest after that is from Thessaly in Greece. But again I don't know much about the science and as you say Phylogenetics play a part. I guess there is still a long way to go to have some kind of reliable and correct picture (if we ever do)

noUseForAname
28-09-14, 02:57
This sounds a little bit like mythology and not hard science in my opinion!

It is a mythology for sure, and nothing is scientific proven and maybe never be...it was rather an opinion to not be racist cause color shoudnt be...also it might be true in the following cases, 1: if we are really created from God then in order to not be one sided whith the color then its actually a good idea to create a mixed color...all colors included...well it might sound stupid but just an opinion...

In that case he would not be much different from the present people as the climatic conditions would have determined to see the Physiognomy we see today in order to be able to survive the local climatic conditions.

i was just replying to a thread where it said that everybody who left from Africa was Black, i dont believe this is true. Just because now most are black people doesn't mean that 50,000 ago people were all black in Africa.

LeBrok
28-09-14, 03:32
i was just replying to a thread where it said that everybody who left from Africa was Black, i dont believe this is true. Just because now most are black people doesn't mean that 50,000 ago people were all black in Africa.
Why wouldn't they? Black is the best skin tone for these climatic conditions. Look at lighter skin bedouins in sub saharan Africa, how much they need to be covered from head to toes in cloths to survive. White people who live in Africa have 100 or 1000 times bigger prevalence of skin cancer than black Africans. Black is the best skin colour there.

kamani
28-09-14, 04:27
nicely explained Angela thanks. Cannot wait to have more and more results. According to E-V13 Eupidia Map provided the E-V13 around the agean sea is very coastal in Turkey and looks like an extension from Greece and the balkan region (In this case) and not the other way round. However I do know that one cannot rely solely on maybe more recent expansions from a particular geographical location (in this case the Balkans). Its even more strange that the oldest E-v13 yet to be found comes from Iberia. If not mistaken the oldest after that is from Thessaly in Greece. But again I don't know much about the science and as you say Phylogenetics play a part. I guess there is still a long way to go to have some kind of reliable and correct picture (if we ever do)

You might be right on the Gibraltar/Iberian origin of E-v13. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Iberia#Neolithic. We know for sure they were part of Iberian Neolithic farmers.

Angela
28-09-14, 18:06
You might be right on the Gibraltar/Iberian origin of E-v13. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Iberia#Neolithic. We know for sure they were part of Iberian Neolithic farmers.

The fact that E-V13 was part of the early Neolithic is incontrovertible. As is the fact that the sample was found in the Iberian Neolithic. (This means that E-V13 has been in Europe for at least 7,000 years, longer than the "R" lineages, at least so far as our current ancient samples would indicate.)

That doesn't tell us where it originated. The phylogeny would indicate that it is sourced in the Near East, although it's possible, as Maleth pointed out, that the mutation occurred in Europe. I still think that it is more likely it originated in the Middle East, given the levels in the Druze, a population that seems to have preserved the more ancient lineages of the Middle East, but it wouldn't at all surprise me to discover that Maleth is correct.

The editor of the "E" pages on Wiki is very knowledgeable, in my opinion, and so I think that the following page gives a very nice summary.(You can jump to the E-V13 section.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFLacanKayserRicautBrucato2011

See also the Marie Lacan et al paper which found the ancient E-V13 sample:
http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255.long

As to the route that E-V13 took to reach Iberia, the Avellenar site is an epi-Cardial one. This is a good map of the Cardial migrations as determined by archaeology:
http://armchairprehistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/europe-map1.gif
Note that according to some researchers, at least, the start of the Cardial culture in Europe can be located on the Adriatic in the Balkans.

It's true that there were Cardial sites in North Africa and some have posited a movement from those sites into Iberia.
http://forwhattheywereweare.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/zephyrvs_lxvi_2010_page15_image1.jpg

However, please note the location of the Avellenar site:
http://dnaexplained.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/ancient-y.png

Given this location and the correspondences between Avellenar and Treilles, I think it highly likely that Avellenar was part of the Cardial expansion that moved along the northern Mediterranean.

noUseForAname
28-09-14, 22:17
Why wouldn't they? Black is the best skin tone for these climatic conditions. Look at lighter skin bedouins in sub saharan Africa, how much they need to be covered from head to toes in cloths to survive. White people who live in Africa have 100 or 1000 times bigger prevalence of skin cancer than black Africans. Black is the best skin colour there.

It is a mythology for sure, and nothing is scientific proven and maybe never be...it was rather an opinion to not be racist cause color shoudnt be...also it might be true in the following cases, 1: if we are really created from God then in order to not be one sided whith the color then its actually a good idea to create a mixed color...all colors included...well it might sound stupid but just an opinion...

Sounds like black color is much convenient for the current climate of Africa, however what i was trying to say is that climate was never the same, specially if we are talking about 50,000 years before, we also know that in pharaohs era most of Egypt was green. And even much before, the recent humanoid discovered oldest skeleton 4.4 million years old
http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2009/10/01_ardiskeleton.shtml

kamani
29-09-14, 01:38
It is a mythology for sure, and nothing is scientific proven and maybe never be...it was rather an opinion to not be racist cause color shoudnt be...also it might be true in the following cases, 1: if we are really created from God then in order to not be one sided whith the color then its actually a good idea to create a mixed color...all colors included...well it might sound stupid but just an opinion...

Sounds like black color is much convenient for the current climate of Africa, however what i was trying to say is that climate was never the same, specially if we are talking about 50,000 years before, we also know that in pharaohs era most of Egypt was green. And even much before, the recent humanoid discovered oldest skeleton 4.4 million years old
http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2009/10/01_ardiskeleton.shtml

European paleolithic hunter-gatherers were brown, which makes E-v13, as a Neolithic farmer, part of the first small population of white people to ever exist. So it was a seeder for genes of white skin.

Maleth
29-09-14, 09:06
Sounds like black color is much convenient for the current climate of Africa, however what i was trying to say is that climate was never the same, specially if we are talking about 50,000 years before, we also know that in pharaohs era most of Egypt was green. And even much before, the recent humanoid discovered oldest skeleton 4.4 million years old
http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2009/10/01_ardiskeleton.shtml

Its a good point and was curious to see if we might have some indications. This is the closest I got (quoting) 'It is obvious from the graph that we are now living in the coldest period of Earth’s history for the last 65 million years.'(End quote) So the probability is that the Earth was even warmer during the early evolution of homo sapiens. I also read somewhere (I post link if I find it) that some 3 Million years ago the global temperature was some 2 to 3 degrees warmer then it is today.

http://joannenova.com.au/2010/02/the-big-picture-65-million-years-of-temperature-swings/

Maleth
29-09-14, 09:12
The fact that E-V13 was part of the early Neolithic is incontrovertible. As is the fact that the sample was found in the Iberian Neolithic. (This means that E-V13 has been in Europe for at least 7,000 years, longer than the "R" lineages, at least so far as our current ancient samples would indicate.)

That doesn't tell us where it originated. The phylogeny would indicate that it is sourced in the Near East, although it's possible, as Maleth pointed out, that the mutation occurred in Europe. I still think that it is more likely it originated in the Middle East, given the levels in the Druze, a population that seems to have preserved the more ancient lineages of the Middle East, but it wouldn't at all surprise me to discover that Maleth is correct.

The editor of the "E" pages on Wiki is very knowledgeable, in my opinion, and so I think that the following page gives a very nice summary.(You can jump to the E-V13 section.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFLacanKayserRicautBrucato2011

See also the Marie Lacan et al paper which found the ancient E-V13 sample:
http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255.long

As to the route that E-V13 took to reach Iberia, the Avellenar site is an epi-Cardial one. This is a good map of the Cardial migrations as determined by archaeology:
http://armchairprehistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/europe-map1.gif
Note that according to some researchers, at least, the start of the Cardial culture in Europe can be located on the Adriatic in the Balkans.

It's true that there were Cardial sites in North Africa and some have posited a movement from those sites into Iberia.
http://forwhattheywereweare.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/zephyrvs_lxvi_2010_page15_image1.jpg

However, please note the location of the Avellenar site:
http://dnaexplained.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/ancient-y.png

Given this location and the correspondences between Avellenar and Treilles, I think it highly likely that Avellenar was part of the Cardial expansion that moved along the northern Mediterranean.

Thank you for Links and info Angela....very interesting.

LeBrok
29-09-14, 16:46
It is a mythology for sure, and nothing is scientific proven and maybe never be...it was rather an opinion to not be racist cause color shoudnt be...also it might be true in the following casesDon't worry, talking about races is not going to make you one.


1: if we are really created from God then in order to not be one sided whith the color then its actually a good idea to create a mixed color...all colors included...well it might sound stupid but just an opinion... You have to let go this idea. It coulds understanding of how nature works.


Sounds like black color is much convenient for the current climate of Africa, however what i was trying to say is that climate was never the same, specially if we are talking about 50,000 years before, we also know that in pharaohs era most of Egypt was green. And even much before, the recent humanoid discovered oldest skeleton 4.4 million years old
http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2009/10/01_ardiskeleton.shtml Skin tone is not about air being warm or cold, it is about intencity of UV radiation from the Sun. 50 kya during ice age Earth was much drier than today, therefore air around equator was more transparent for sun rays, thus more intense. Black skin colour would have been even more desirable. They might not have been superblack, just shades of darker brown, but definitely they were not white.

Soon we will know for sure. Skin colour is written in DNA. We just need to find human remains in Africa dated 100 years ago and learn everything about skin colour. So far our knowledge about skin pigmentation is not complete.

noUseForAname
29-09-14, 17:29
Don't worry, talking about races is not going to make you one.

You have to let go this idea. It coulds understanding of how nature works.

[COLOR=#333333][I] Skin tone is not about air being warm or cold, it is about intencity of UV radiation from the Sun. 50 kya during ice age Earth was much drier than today, therefore air around equator was more transparent for sun rays, thus more intense. Black skin colour would have been even more desirable. They might not have been superblack, just shades of darker brown, but definitely they were not white.

Soon we will know for sure. Skin colour is written in DNA. We just need to find human remains in Africa dated 100 years ago and learn everything about skin colour. So far our knowledge about skin pigmentation is not complete.

Yes that is what i meant from the beginning definitely not all white and definitely not all black.
Maybe something like the one they found 7,000 years in Spain and it is E-V13 (10,000 years) which is a subclade of E1b1b (42,000 years)
This color seems pretty close except for his eyes i think
http://www.livescience.com/42838-european-hunter-gatherer-genome-sequenced.html

I think the midpoint is the logical one, thats why i speculated that the first humanoid is between white and black (mixed with all main colors)
Maybe then some mutated to all white (through millions of years) and some to all black depending on the geographical locations and UV radiation. Then some stayed the same (light or darker brownish).

Angela
29-09-14, 18:08
Yes that is what i meant from the beginning definitely not all white and definitely not all black.
Maybe something like the one they found 7,000 years in Spain and it is E-V13 (10,000 years) which is a subclade of E1b1b (42,000 years)
This color seems pretty close except for his eyes i think
http://www.livescience.com/42838-european-hunter-gatherer-genome-sequenced.html

I think the midpoint is the logical one, thats why i speculated that the first humanoid is between white and black (mixed with all main colors)
Maybe then some mutated to all white (through millions of years) and some to all black depending on the geographical locations and UV radiation. Then some stayed the same (light or darker brownish).

That is not the "re-creation" of the Neolithic farmer who was E-V13. It is the recreation of a western hunter gatherer, and not a particularly good one, in my opinion, as he looks far too "modern" for the skull they found.

noUseForAname
29-09-14, 18:41
That is not the "re-creation" of the Neolithic farmer who was E-V13. It is the recreation of a western hunter gatherer, and not a particularly good one, in my opinion, as he looks far too "modern" for the skull they found.

Yes definitely based on his overall look he looks way to modern (actually he looks like a current nice looking HIPSTER lol), however we were discussing the skin color, not all white and not all black but rather a midpoint of rather brownish color.

Zim Nezaj
16-11-16, 05:46
Until today no E-V13 has been Found In Blakans older than any other HG
and only 1 in Europe in Spain. No More

the nearest older is founded in Konya Turkey estimated about 2000 BC same Time Dienekes mentions as Entrance In Balkans,
that Time also fits with Arcado-Cypriot population entrance In Greece, but yet no Greece no elsewere in Balkans has been found,
so it could be even later.

the rest are Theories, for nationalistic reasons,
When an E-V13 is found In Balkans then we can speak,
we even find Dogs DNA like the sub-specie Αλωπεκις an Asian-south Balkanic dog that came at 3000 BC but no human E-V13
for data ask Federation Canis International FCI which ask the genetical data to saved in Genetic Bank since that dog specie is in danger.
I tested E-V13 Positive and my origin is Albanian ... 100% Albanian, 87.2% Balkan and 95.6% southern European, i have no greek relation whatsoever .. well greeks have relation to Albanians & that is the E-V13 that was picked up from Albanians .. DNA does not lie .. your point is ?
Albanians have the highest Levels of E-V13 especially in Kosovo aka Dardania.
I will post up my Family tree YDNA-63 results once in.
cheers