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Zeus10
16-02-13, 15:56
http://www.history-forum.org/threads/264-Albanians-this-Ancient-Nation?p=894

I was going through a document of the year 1308 called

'Anonymi Descriptio Europae Orientalis'
Anonymous:
Description of Eastern Europe

from this source:

http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts15/AH1308.html

and I noticed that during a very interesing description of the Europeans Albanians, the author quoting Plinnus the Elder talks about a gift made from the Albanian King to Alexander the Great.

The so-called 'Anonymi Descriptio Europae Orientalis' (Anonymous Description of Eastern Europe) (1) is a mediaeval Latin text from the year 1308 which contains a survey of the lands of Eastern Europe, in particular the countries of the Balkans. Its anonymous author is thought to have been a French or French-educated cleric, most likely of the Dominican order, who was sent by the church to Serbia where he gained much of his information on the Balkans. The manuscript was edited in Kraków in 1916 by Olgierd Górka. In addition to sections depicting the various regions of Byzantine Greece, Rascia, Bulgaria, Ruthenia, Hungary, Poland and Bohemia, it contains a section on Albania, one of the rare descriptions of the country in the early years of the fourteenth century. We know that the Dominicans were active in Durrës from 1304 onwards when the town fell to the West after twenty years of Byzantine rule. In a letter dated 31 March 1304, Pope Benedict XI had asked the head of the Dominican Order in Hungary to send to Albania some of his subordinates of 'good moral character, active and eloquent' for missionary activities. With the support of the Holy See, the Dominicans thus had full power to set up a Latin hierarchy of their own liking on the Albanian coast to replace the Orthodox church which had been forced to abandon position.

Now we come to speak of Albania, which, on its southern side, is right next to Greece and is situated between Rascia and the land of the Despot (2). Albania is a rather extensive and large region. It has warlike inhabitants indeed, for they make excellent archers and lancers. This whole region is fed by four large rivers: the Ersenta (Erzen), the Mathia (Mat), the Scumpino (Shkumbin) and the Epasa (Osum). The land is productive in meat, cheese and milk; it is not very abundant in bread and wine, though the nobles in particular have enough. They do not have cities, camps, fortifications and farms, but live rather in tents and are constantly on the move from one place to another with the help of their troops and relatives. They do have one city called Duracium (Durrës) which belongs to the Latins and from which they get textiles and other necessities. The Prince of Tarento, son of the King of Sicily (3), now holds sway over part of this kingdom including the city of Durrës. It was the free will of the landowners who, on account of their natural love for the French, spontaneously and freely received him as their lord (4). From Apulia and the city of Brindisi one may cross over to Durrës in one night, and from Durrës one may travel on through Albania to Greece and to Constantinople much more easily and without all the road difficulties and perils of the sea. The Roman emperors of ancient times used this route (5) for it is excessively tedious to transport a large army in such a period of time by sea and by such long roads. The said kingdom of Albania now has no king, the land being divided among the landowners who rule it themselves and who are subject to no one else. This province is called Albania because the inhabitants of this region are born with white (albo) hair. The dogs here are of a huge size (6) and are so wild that they kill like lions. As Pliny mentions, the Albanians sent such a dog to Alexander the Great, which vanquished lions, elephants and bulls in the stadium. They have painted eyes, greyish in the pupils, such that they can see better at night than in the daytime. There are two Albanias, one in Asia near India of which we are not speaking here, and the other in Europe which is part of the Byzantine Empire and of which we are speaking here. It contains two provinces: Clisara (Këlcyra) and Tumurist (7). In addition to these two provinces, it has other provinces next to it: Cumania (8), Stophanatum (9), Polatum (Pult) and Debre (Dibra) which are provinces tributary to the Albanians and more or less subjected to them, for they are active in farming, tend their vineyards and take care of the necessities of life at home. The inhabitants of these provinces do not move from place to place as the aformentioned Albanians do, but live rather in solid mansions and towns, nor are they entirely Catholic or entirely schismatic. Should anyone preach the word of God to them, they would pretend to be true Catholics for it is reported that by nature they have a liking for the Latins. The aforementioned Albanians have a language which is distinct from that of the Latins, Greeks and Slavs such that in no way can they communicate with other peoples. This is enough on Albania.

I checked the accuracy of this statement and I noticed that the author was right

Pliny, Natural History Book VIII. pp. 149–150.


149 (Certum est iuxta Nilum amnem currentes lambere, ne crocodilorum aviditati occasionem praebeant) — Indiam petenti Alexandro Magno rex Albaniae dono dederat inusitatae magnitudinis unum, cuius specie delectatus iussit ursos, mox apros et deinde dammas emitti, contemptim inmobili iacente eo, qua segnitia tanti corporis offensus imperator generosi spiritus interemi eum iussit. nuntiavit hoc fama regi. itaque alterum mittens addidit mandata, ne in parvis experiri vellet, sed in leone elephantove: duos sibi fuisse, hoc interempto praeterea nullum fore.


Taking in consideration that Pliny the Elder has lived Gaius Plinius Secundus (23 AD – August 25, 79 AD), this must be considered the earliest known time that Albanians have been mentioned. At the same time considering that according the historiography Alexander the Great has lived in the 4th BCE 20/21 July 356 – 10/11 June 323 BC) that makes the Albanians contemporary to him and Epirotes is their other name.

Yetos
16-02-13, 19:45
Indiam petendi ????

can you give translation of that?

zanipolo
16-02-13, 19:49
This province is called Albania because the inhabitants of this region are born with white (albo) hair. The dogs here are of a huge size (6) and are so wild that they kill like lions. As Pliny mentions, the Albanians sent such a dog to Alexander the Great, which vanquished lions, elephants and bulls in the stadium. They have painted eyes, greyish in the pupils, such that they can see better at night than in the daytime. There are two Albanias, one in Asia near India of which we are not speaking here, and the other in Europe which is part of the Byzantine Empire and of which we are speaking here. It contains two provinces: Clisara (Këlcyra) and Tumurist (7). In addition to these two provinces, it has other provinces next to it: Cumania (8), Stophanatum (9), Polatum (Pult) and Debre (Dibra) which are provinces tributary to the Albanians and more or less subjected to them, for they are active in farming, tend their vineyards and take care of the necessities of life at home. The inhabitants of these provinces do not move from place to place as the aformentioned Albanians do, but live rather in solid mansions and towns, nor are they entirely Catholic or entirely schismatic. Should anyone preach the word of God to them, they would pretend to be true Catholics for it is reported that by nature they have a liking for the Latins. The aforementioned Albanians have a language which is distinct from that of the Latins, Greeks and Slavs such that in no way can they communicate with other peoples. This is enough on Albania.
I checked the accuracy of this statement and I noticed that the author was right

Pliny, Natural History Book VIII. pp. 149–150.


149 (Certum est iuxta Nilum amnem currentes lambere, ne crocodilorum aviditati occasionem praebeant) — Indiam petenti Alexandro Magno rex Albaniae dono dederat inusitatae magnitudinis unum, cuius specie delectatus iussit ursos, mox apros et deinde dammas emitti, contemptim inmobili iacente eo, qua segnitia tanti corporis offensus imperator generosi spiritus interemi eum iussit. nuntiavit hoc fama regi. itaque alterum mittens addidit mandata, ne in parvis experiri vellet, sed in leone elephantove: duos sibi fuisse, hoc interempto praeterea nullum fore.


Taking in consideration that Pliny the Elder has lived Gaius Plinius Secundus (23 AD – August 25, 79 AD), this must be considered the earliest known time that Albanians have been mentioned. At the same time considering that according the historiography Alexander the Great has lived in the 4th BCE 20/21 July 356 – 10/11 June 323 BC) that makes the Albanians contemporary to him and Epirotes is their other name.


rex = King


edit - I found the original text it translate to


When Alexander a famous the Great was on his way to India, the king of Albania '"""^- had presented him with one dog of unusually large size ; Alexander was dehghted by its appearance, and gave orders for bears and then boars and finally hinds to be let slip — the hound lying contemptuously motionless, This slackness on the part of so vast an animal annoyed the generous spirit of the Emperor, who ordered it to be destroyed. Report carried news of this to the king ; and accordingly sending a second hound he added a message that Alexander

the king of Albania Caucasus presented Alexander a gift

zanipolo
16-02-13, 20:03
Indiam petendi ????

can you give translation of that?

Seeking India

zanipolo
16-02-13, 20:25
http://www.history-forum.org/threads/264-Albanians-this-Ancient-Nation?p=894

I was going through a document of the year 1308 called

'Anonymi Descriptio Europae Orientalis'
Anonymous:
Description of Eastern Europe

from this source:

http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts15/AH1308.html

and I noticed that during a very interesing description of the Europeans Albanians, the author quoting Plinnus the Elder talks about a gift made from the Albanian King to Alexander the Great.

The so-called 'Anonymi Descriptio Europae Orientalis' (Anonymous Description of Eastern Europe) (1) is a mediaeval Latin text from the year 1308 which contains a survey of the lands of Eastern Europe, in particular the countries of the Balkans. Its anonymous author is thought to have been a French or French-educated cleric, most likely of the Dominican order, who was sent by the church to Serbia where he gained much of his information on the Balkans. The manuscript was edited in Kraków in 1916 by Olgierd Górka. In addition to sections depicting the various regions of Byzantine Greece, Rascia, Bulgaria, Ruthenia, Hungary, Poland and Bohemia, it contains a section on Albania, one of the rare descriptions of the country in the early years of the fourteenth century. We know that the Dominicans were active in Durrës from 1304 onwards when the town fell to the West after twenty years of Byzantine rule. In a letter dated 31 March 1304, Pope Benedict XI had asked the head of the Dominican Order in Hungary to send to Albania some of his subordinates of 'good moral character, active and eloquent' for missionary activities. With the support of the Holy See, the Dominicans thus had full power to set up a Latin hierarchy of their own liking on the Albanian coast to replace the Orthodox church which had been forced to abandon position.

Now we come to speak of Albania, which, on its southern side, is right next to Greece and is situated between Rascia and the land of the Despot (2). Albania is a rather extensive and large region. It has warlike inhabitants indeed, for they make excellent archers and lancers. This whole region is fed by four large rivers: the Ersenta (Erzen), the Mathia (Mat), the Scumpino (Shkumbin) and the Epasa (Osum). The land is productive in meat, cheese and milk; it is not very abundant in bread and wine, though the nobles in particular have enough. They do not have cities, camps, fortifications and farms, but live rather in tents and are constantly on the move from one place to another with the help of their troops and relatives. They do have one city called Duracium (Durrës) which belongs to the Latins and from which they get textiles and other necessities. The Prince of Tarento, son of the King of Sicily (3), now holds sway over part of this kingdom including the city of Durrës. It was the free will of the landowners who, on account of their natural love for the French, spontaneously and freely received him as their lord (4). From Apulia and the city of Brindisi one may cross over to Durrës in one night, and from Durrës one may travel on through Albania to Greece and to Constantinople much more easily and without all the road difficulties and perils of the sea. The Roman emperors of ancient times used this route (5) for it is excessively tedious to transport a large army in such a period of time by sea and by such long roads. The said kingdom of Albania now has no king, the land being divided among the landowners who rule it themselves and who are subject to no one else. This province is called Albania because the inhabitants of this region are born with white (albo) hair. The dogs here are of a huge size (6) and are so wild that they kill like lions. As Pliny mentions, the Albanians sent such a dog to Alexander the Great, which vanquished lions, elephants and bulls in the stadium. They have painted eyes, greyish in the pupils, such that they can see better at night than in the daytime. There are two Albanias, one in Asia near India of which we are not speaking here, and the other in Europe which is part of the Byzantine Empire and of which we are speaking here. It contains two provinces: Clisara (Këlcyra) and Tumurist (7). In addition to these two provinces, it has other provinces next to it: Cumania (8), Stophanatum (9), Polatum (Pult) and Debre (Dibra) which are provinces tributary to the Albanians and more or less subjected to them, for they are active in farming, tend their vineyards and take care of the necessities of life at home. The inhabitants of these provinces do not move from place to place as the aformentioned Albanians do, but live rather in solid mansions and towns, nor are they entirely Catholic or entirely schismatic. Should anyone preach the word of God to them, they would pretend to be true Catholics for it is reported that by nature they have a liking for the Latins. The aforementioned Albanians have a language which is distinct from that of the Latins, Greeks and Slavs such that in no way can they communicate with other peoples. This is enough on Albania.

I checked the accuracy of this statement and I noticed that the author was right

Pliny, Natural History Book VIII. pp. 149–150.


149 (Certum est iuxta Nilum amnem currentes lambere, ne crocodilorum aviditati occasionem praebeant) — Indiam petenti Alexandro Magno rex Albaniae dono dederat inusitatae magnitudinis unum, cuius specie delectatus iussit ursos, mox apros et deinde dammas emitti, contemptim inmobili iacente eo, qua segnitia tanti corporis offensus imperator generosi spiritus interemi eum iussit. nuntiavit hoc fama regi. itaque alterum mittens addidit mandata, ne in parvis experiri vellet, sed in leone elephantove: duos sibi fuisse, hoc interempto praeterea nullum fore.


Taking in consideration that Pliny the Elder has lived Gaius Plinius Secundus (23 AD – August 25, 79 AD), this must be considered the earliest known time that Albanians have been mentioned. At the same time considering that according the historiography Alexander the Great has lived in the 4th BCE 20/21 July 356 – 10/11 June 323 BC) that makes the Albanians contemporary to him and Epirotes is their other name.

you still looking for albanians on the adriatic

Read this book
Pannonia and Upper Moesia: A History of the Middle Danube Provinces of the ... By András Mócsy

The first 15 pages is enough to read and it basically says the dardani people of modern Kosovo settled near lake Ohrid where albanon was first mentioned in the 11th century. The dardani after defeating a macedonian army where defeated and fled their homelands by repeated attacks from macedonia, illyria and dacian tribes ( it does not say these where in alliance though)

Zeus10
16-02-13, 20:30
rex = King


edit - I found the original text it translate to


When Alexander a famous the Great was on his way to India, the king of Albania '"""^- had presented him with one dog of unusually large size ; Alexander was dehghted by its appearance, and gave orders for bears and then boars and finally hinds to be let slip — the hound lying contemptuously motionless, This slackness on the part of so vast an animal annoyed the generous spirit of the Emperor, who ordered it to be destroyed. Report carried news of this to the king ; and accordingly sending a second hound he added a message that Alexander

the king of Albania Caucasus presented Alexander a gift


read again:



This province is called Albania because the inhabitants of this region are born with white (albo) hair. The dogs here are of a huge size (6) and are so wild that they kill like lions. As Pliny mentions, the Albanians sent such a dog to Alexander the Great, whichvanquished lions, elephants and bulls in the stadium. They have painted eyes, greyish in the pupils, such that they can see better at night than in the daytime. There are two Albanias, one in Asia near India of which we are not speaking here, and the other in Europe which is part of the Byzantine Empire and of which we are speaking here.

zanipolo
16-02-13, 20:50
read again:

sorry, i do not see this white hair etc

i see a continuous text about Alexander the great entering India and the customs of the Indians in breeding tiger for game, alexanders gift from the king of albania caucasus and using beast to kill elephants




148
E tigribus eos Indi volunt concipi et ob id in silvis coitus tempore alligant feminas. primo et secundo fetu nimis feroces putant gigni, tertio demum educant. hoc idem e lupis Gallis, quorum greges suum quisque ductorem e canibus et ducem habent. illum in venatu comitantur, illi parent; namque inter se exercent etiam magisteria. —




149
(Certum est iuxta Nilum amnem currentes lambere, ne crocodilorum aviditati occasionem praebeant) — Indiam petenti Alexandro Magno rex Albaniae dono dederat inusitatae magnitudinis unum, cuius specie delectatus iussit ursos, mox apros et deinde dammas emitti, contemptim inmobili iacente eo, qua segnitia tanti corporis offensus imperator generosi spiritus interemi eum iussit. nuntiavit hoc fama regi. itaque alterum mittens addidit mandata, ne in parvis experiri vellet, sed in leone elephantove: duos sibi fuisse, hoc interempto praeterea nullum fore.




150
nec distulit Alexander leonemque fractum protinus vidit. postea elephantum iussit induci, haut alio magis spectaculo laetatus. horrentibus quippe villis per tantum corpus ingenti primum latratu intonuit, mox ingruit adsultans contraque membra exurgens hinc et illinc artifici dimicatione, qua maxime opus esset, infestans atque evitans, donec adsidua rotatum vertigine adflixit, ad casum eius tellure concussa.

Yetos
16-02-13, 21:12
I ask about Indiam Petendi, cause Indiam Petendi is after Babylon and Dareius 'Petendi',

Heading India is the last expedition.

Zeus10
16-02-13, 22:52
[QUOTE=zanipolo;403903]sorry, i do not see this white hair etc[ /QUOTE]

Consequenter dicendum est de albania, que est coniuncta grecie immediate 2) a parte meridiei et est sita inter rasiam et terrajn dee-poti. Est enim [hec] albania regio satis lata et magna. habens ho-mines bellicosos ualde, sunt enim optimi sagitarii et lancearii. qua-tuor fluuiis magnis tota hec regio irrigatur, videlicet erseiita, ma-thia3), Scumpino4) Epasa. Terra est fertilis in carnibus, caseis [et] lacte, [in] pane et uino non multum habundant, sufficienter tamen habent presertim nobiles; ciuitates, castra [opida] [et] fortalicia et uillas non habent, sed habdtant in papilionibus et sempter mouentur de loco ad locum per turmas et cognationes suas. Habent tamen unam ciuitatem, que uocatur duracium et est latinorum, ab ea [enim] habent pamios et alia necessarija. partem huius regni cum ciuitate duracena [predicta] tenet nune princeps tarentinus filius regis sy-cilie et hoc ex uoluntate libera [illorum] domrinorum de terra, qui ipsum propter naturalem amorem, quem habent in gallicos, sponte et libere eum in dominum receperunt. De Apulia et de «iuitate brundensima 5) [vna] nocte potest transiri in duracium et de duracio per albaniam, potest iri in greciam et in Constantinopolim ualde faciliter et bene absque difficultate uiarum et periculo aquarum 6) et hanc uiam faciebant antnquitus imperatores romanorum, , nam nimium te-diosmn est exercitum [tam) copiosum ducere tanto tempore per mare et per tam longam uiam. Dictam albanie regnum nune regem nullum habet, sed terra diuiditur per principe» terre, qul ipsam regunt et ipsi nulii substrat. [U]Dicitur autem bec prouincia albania eo quod albo crine x) homines illius regionis nascuntur. Canes sunt in ea ingentis magnitudinis et tante ferocitatis quod [eciam] leones perimerunt2), vnde et plinius refert, quod alb ani miserunt unum canem alexandro magno, qui de leone, elephante et tauro in etadio triumphauit, Oculoe babent depictoe et glaucos in pupilla adeo quod melius de nocte uident quam de dde [et adeo sunt magni fures et de nocte discurrunt siciit et de die]. Duas tamen constat esse albanias, vnam in asia, que est circa indiatm et de illa non loquimur hic, aliam [iesse] in europa, que est de imperio constantinopolitano [de iure] et de hac loquimur hic, [et] duas prouincias continet in se, uidelicet clisaramp) et tumurist*). Preter has duas prouincias habet iuxta se et alias prouincias videlicet cumaniam, etophanatum pola-tum, debre, que quidem proudneie sunt tributarie eisdem albanenai-bus et quasi serue, quia exercent agriculturam et colunt vineas ipso-rum ac seruant necessaria in domibus suiş. homines istarum pro-uinciarum non mouentur de loco ad locum, sicut prefati albanen-ses, sed habent stabiles 5) mansiones et opida, nec sunt pure catholici, nec pure scismatici. Si tamen esset qui eis uerbum dei proponeret, ef-ficerentur puri catholici, quia naturaliter diligunt latinos ut diictum est; habent enim albani prefati linguam distinctam a latinis, grecia et sclauis ita quod in nullo se intelligunt cum aliis nationibus, et hec de albania dicta sufficiant.

Yetos
17-02-13, 01:02
Dicitur autem bec prouincia albania eo quod albo crine x) homines illius regionis nascuntur. Canes sunt in ea ingentis magnitudinis et tante ferocitatis quod [eciam] leones perimerunt2), vnde et plinius refert, quod alb ani miserunt unum canem alexandro magno, qui de leone, elephante et tauro in etadio triumphauit, Oculoe babent depictoe et glaucos in pupilla adeo quod melius de nocte uident quam de dde [et adeo sunt magni fures et de nocte discurrunt siciit et de die]. Duas tamen constat esse albanias, vnam in asia, que est circa indiatm et de illa non loquimur hic, aliam [iesse] in europa, que est de imperio constantinopolitano [de iure] et de hac loquimur hic


From where is the second Part/text?
Surely not from Pliny,

are you reffering the molossian dogs? described by Virgil Aristotle and many others?

I wonder where you focus?
lets see, what is your point.

Beast
22-05-13, 11:55
rex = King


edit - I found the original text it translate to


When Alexander a famous the Great was on his way to India, the king of Albania '"""^- had presented him with one dog of unusually large size ; Alexander was dehghted by its appearance, and gave orders for bears and then boars and finally hinds to be let slip — the hound lying contemptuously motionless, This slackness on the part of so vast an animal annoyed the generous spirit of the Emperor, who ordered it to be destroyed. Report carried news of this to the king ; and accordingly sending a second hound he added a message that Alexander

the king of Albania Caucasus presented Alexander a gift


EDIT AGAIN: If that's a quote from pliny then it's not about albania in the balkans. it wasn't even called albania at that time.

zanipolo
22-05-13, 12:48
EDIT AGAIN: If that's a quote from pliny then it's not about albania in the balkans. it wasn't even called albania at that time.

I know, there was no albania in europe in the ancient times

Zemra
24-05-13, 08:45
I know, there was no albania in europe in the ancient times

Considering the origin of the word (http://htmlimg2.scribdassets.com/163mpthkn420evoj/images/44-aa69ee9c86.jpg), that is quite a statement. Likely candidates
Arbër ~ Arbën < Albanoi < *albanus or
Arbër ~ Arbën < Arbona or
Arbër ~ Arbën < ορφανός (apparently) or
Arbër ~ Arbën < arvum

Did I miss anyone? Anyway, the point is, the origin of the name is either of Latin or Greek origin and yet you say it's not found where Latin and Greek were spoken. Yetos proposed Alba Iulia as well, although Alba Iulia is found at 222 - 247 meters (http://www.romaniatourism.com/alba-iulia.html), while Albanian has original vocabulary (read: not loanwords) for things that are found above c. 600-900 m asl.

On topic, the oldest official text about Albanians was "Audivi uriam voce, clamantem in monte in lingua albanesca" in Ragusha in 1285. Let's leave it to that, because it really annoying.

zanipolo
24-05-13, 09:49
Considering the origin of the word (http://htmlimg2.scribdassets.com/163mpthkn420evoj/images/44-aa69ee9c86.jpg), that is quite a statement. Likely candidates
Arbër ~ Arbën < Albanoi < *albanus or
Arbër ~ Arbën < Arbona or
Arbër ~ Arbën < ορφανός (apparently) or
Arbër ~ Arbën < arvum

Did I miss anyone? Anyway, the point is, the origin of the name is either of Latin or Greek origin and yet you say it's not found where Latin and Greek were spoken. Yetos proposed Alba Iulia as well, although Alba Iulia is found at 222 - 247 meters (http://www.romaniatourism.com/alba-iulia.html), while Albanian has original vocabulary (read: not loanwords) for things that are found above c. 600-900 m asl.

On topic, the oldest official text about Albanians was "Audivi uriam voce, clamantem in monte in lingua albanesca" in Ragusha in 1285. Let's leave it to that, because it really annoying.

Ancient IMO is in BC times

Zemra
01-06-13, 06:58
Ancient IMO is in BC times
Are you replying to me? Or are you putting me in group with everyone? Or are you replying to me here from another topic? Quite an odd and disjointed answer for what I posted.

Nobody1
02-06-13, 03:10
This is a good web-site from Robert Elsie, all about Albanian history; - incl. the first mentions etc.

http://www.albanianhistory.net/de/texts15.html

Proper sources and Documents

Luan
02-06-13, 04:17
This is a good web-site from Robert Elsie, all about Albanian history; - incl. the first mentions etc.

http://www.albanianhistory.net/de/texts15.html

Proper sources and Documents

Verry interesting, thanks.

zanipolo
02-06-13, 04:55
Are you replying to me? Or are you putting me in group with everyone? Or are you replying to me here from another topic? Quite an odd and disjointed answer for what I posted.

It was to you and I was clarifying what the term ancient meant for me.
some people think ancient is to the start of the dark-ages........i do not know which is correct

ukaj
09-06-13, 11:55
I know, there was no albania in europe in the ancient timesYes you are right their wsnt but only tribal structures through their,we may have not been called albania but we do know we were their through those times,our language says it all.

ukaj
09-06-13, 11:58
MAL I ZI is albanians birth place can anyone tell me where these words coe from MAL I ZI

albanopolis
09-06-13, 12:40
I know, there was no albania in europe in the ancient times
True! But there are other facts that prove our presence where we are.
1) Illyria is an Albanian word, presently in use, meaning "free people"
2) Toponims: Ulcinj. Dalmatia, Dardania, Molosia etc... are also Albanian words in use today
3)Ancient names of kings and queens of Illyria are Albanian words still in use
4) Albanian language has 50% latin words spoken in prechristian times,that proves proximity with Rome
5) Neolithic genes in Albanian population
6)Get your life together and do somthing else instead of debating things you don't know

Yetos
09-06-13, 13:30
True! But there are other facts that prove our presence where we are.
1) Illyria is an Albanian word, presently in use, meaning "free people"
2) Toponims: Ulcinj. Dalmatia, Dardania, Molosia etc... are also Albanian words in use today
3)Ancient names of kings and queens of Illyria are Albanian words still in use
4) Albanian language has 50% latin words spoken in prechristian times,that proves proximity with Rome
5) Neolithic genes in Albanian population
6)Get your life together and do somthing else instead of debating things you don't know



Illyria is Akkadian word, that Hettits borowed, God Illuwanka, Semitic Illu Hebrew El Elion etc

Dalmat also follows Akkadian toponymic - mat.

Dardania after Dardanos is also non IE but can be also combined with Slavic (Maybe Thracian) Duri-Dan
Molosia can be explained by Greek also
μολων

about 6 you don't want to read answer.

Zemra
12-06-13, 04:36
Illyria is Akkadian word, that Hettits borowed, God Illuwanka, Semitic Illu Hebrew El Elion etc

Dalmat also follows Akkadian toponymic - mat.

Dardania after Dardanos is also non IE but can be also combined with Slavic (Maybe Thracian) Duri-Dan
Molosia can be explained by Greek also
μολων

about 6 you don't want to read answer.

1) That's not a conclusive etymology, actually the region has no conclusive etymology. But it's not "i lirë" because that's a Latin loan. Illyrians don't even correspond with with a single material culture, they didn't even have similarities between their dress styles, lifestyles etc. (Wilkes) Illyrian is a terrible name. It's like saying "Modern Balkan people". Balkan incorporates parts of Croatia, Bosnia, most of Serbia, Kosovo, Bulgaria, FYROM, Albania and Greece and part of Turkey. Often Romania is included too. That's not counting minorities like the Pomaks, Vlachs, Gypsies etc. Illyrians did not refer themselves as "Illyrians", that was an exonym. I'm not even sure they spoke the same language.

2) All toponyms, except Molossia are have been related to Albanian words (comparative linguistics) and some have counterparts in the Middle Ages as well (Dardasi in Medieval Albanian to Dardha, South Albania -a place not a fruit- in Modern Albanian for example). I'm not sure about the etymology of Molossia. I'm not even sure how it relates to Myzeqe (at that time Musachi) as it was claimed in the Middle Ages. Yetos is probably right with this one.

3) Lots of problems with this one. While they can be related to Proto-Albanian words, they can't be related to modern-Albanian words. From Bardylis to Bardhyl, or Bardhi is acceptable, as it's connected with the word "bardhë" meaning white, but names like Blaedarus can't give Bledar. Proto-Albanian *blaid-ura gives "blehurë" meaning pale, if and only if, those two are connected. Christianity changed the society, brought new names.

4) Proto-Albanians preceded Romans in the Illyrian region. In general linguists studying Albanian have agreed with this. Vladimir Orel uses the words "must" in his preface instead of "probably" which is a more scholarly term. The scholars whose work he followed agree as well. There's lots of reasons to accept this, most importantly Proto-Albanian period ends when the oldest Latin loans enter the language. The oldest Latin loans enter in the Augustan era. Dacia and Thracia weren't conquered until many centuries later and there's no sign of migration after. Even if PAlbos were Dacians or Thracians, or Phrygian, or Paeonians or whatever -I'm just throwing names here following no logic whatsoever-, they must have been in Illyria before Romans. Also Albanian has pre-Christian (BC) Latin terms which you can't have if conquered in AD years. What they can't agree is where were Proto-Albanians specifically?


5) Eh, not my field.

6) That's rude.

albanopolis
14-06-13, 22:37
1) That's not a conclusive etymology, actually the region has no conclusive etymology. But it's not "i lirë" because that's a Latin loan. Illyrians don't even correspond with with a single material culture, they didn't even have similarities between their dress styles, lifestyles etc. (Wilkes) Illyrian is a terrible name. It's like saying "Modern Balkan people". Balkan incorporates parts of Croatia, Bosnia, most of Serbia, Kosovo, Bulgaria, FYROM, Albania and Greece and part of Turkey. Often Romania is included too. That's not counting minorities like the Pomaks, Vlachs, Gypsies etc. Illyrians did not refer themselves as "Illyrians", that was an exonym. I'm not even sure they spoke the same language.

2) All toponyms, except Molossia are have been related to Albanian words (comparative linguistics) and some have counterparts in the Middle Ages as well (Dardasi in Medieval Albanian to Dardha, South Albania -a place not a fruit- in Modern Albanian for example). I'm not sure about the etymology of Molossia. I'm not even sure how it relates to Myzeqe (at that time Musachi) as it was claimed in the Middle Ages. Yetos is probably right with this one.

3) Lots of problems with this one. While they can be related to Proto-Albanian words, they can't be related to modern-Albanian words. From Bardylis to Bardhyl, or Bardhi is acceptable, as it's connected with the word "bardhë" meaning white, but names like Blaedarus can't give Bledar. Proto-Albanian *blaid-ura gives "blehurë" meaning pale, if and only if, those two are connected. Christianity changed the society, brought new names.

4) Proto-Albanians preceded Romans in the Illyrian region. In general linguists studying Albanian have agreed with this. Vladimir Orel uses the words "must" in his preface instead of "probably" which is a more scholarly term. The scholars whose work he followed agree as well. There's lots of reasons to accept this, most importantly Proto-Albanian period ends when the oldest Latin loans enter the language. The oldest Latin loans enter in the Augustan era. Dacia and Thracia weren't conquered until many centuries later and there's no sign of migration after. Even if PAlbos were Dacians or Thracians, or Phrygian, or Paeonians or whatever -I'm just throwing names here following no logic whatsoever-, they must have been in Illyria before Romans. Also Albanian has pre-Christian (BC) Latin terms which you can't have if conquered in AD years. What they can't agree is where were Proto-Albanians specifically?


5) Eh, not my field.

6) That's rude.

Molosia is an Albanian word=Molle
Dardania is an Albanian word=Dardhe

zanipolo
15-06-13, 22:41
MAL I ZI is albanians birth place can anyone tell me where these words coe from MAL I ZI

Malizi is what people from Mali in Africa call themselves

Luan
16-06-13, 01:36
Malizi is what people from Mali in Africa call themselves
So albanians got that from africans in mali? who would have thought. :rolleyes2:

zanipolo
16-06-13, 03:56
So albanians got that from africans in mali? who would have thought. :rolleyes2:

i did not say this, i just stated what the mali people call themselves....if you want to associate Albanians with Mali you need to provide some evidence.:bored:

Luan
16-06-13, 06:59
i did not say this, i just stated what the mali people call themselves....if you want to associate Albanians with Mali you need to provide some evidence.:bored:
No, it seems you were the one that associated Albanians with Mali when Ukaj asked can anyone tell me where these words coe from MAL I ZI. Moving on.

FBS
17-06-13, 11:37
@Yetos and others

Illyr has connection with Semitic, maybe, but it can be also explained with Albanian - yll, ill, hyll - which means star. Therefore Illyrians could easily mean "people of heavens" or "children of gods", still today in Albanian we call the gods - Hyjni. The meaning of "I lirë" is modern and quite naive since freedom was much younger concept then the age of Illyrians.

Dalmat - can be Akkadian toponym. Dalmacia in Albanian is Malcia (Highlands)- and Mali i Zi is a typicall mistake since it sounds like a translation from old Albanian into Slavic and then form Slavic to Albanian, Malci was wrongly understood as a black mountain (Montenegro).

Dardania has nothing to do with Slavic. Strangely Dardan and Mollos both have to do with the fruit trees in Albanian, but I haven't done my research on these two so I cannot give a proper answer, but definitely cannot be Slavic.

Zemra
20-06-13, 07:07
@Yetos and others

Illyr has connection with Semitic, maybe, but it can be also explained with Albanian - yll, ill, hyll - which means star. Therefore Illyrians could easily mean "people of heavens" or "children of gods", still today in Albanian we call the gods - Hyjni. The meaning of "I lirë" is modern and quite naive since freedom was much younger concept then the age of Illyrians.

Dalmat - can be Akkadian toponym. Dalmacia in Albanian is Malcia (Highlands)- and Mali i Zi is a typicall mistake since it sounds like a translation from old Albanian into Slavic and then form Slavic to Albanian, Malci was wrongly understood as a black mountain (Montenegro).

Dardania has nothing to do with Slavic. Strangely Dardan and Mollos both have to do with the fruit trees in Albanian, but I haven't done my research on these two so I cannot give a proper answer, but definitely cannot be Slavic.

Dardania and Dardasi in the Middle Ages could be related (in name), but not Mollos. I read somewhere for Mollosi went to Moloschi to Musachi to Muzakaj to Myzeqe. The last three are definitely related and well documented but Moloschi just comes out of nowhere.

Malësia is related to the common Paleo Balkan toponym 'mal' (example Malesocus in Istria) meaning 'mountain' in Albanian, or 'shore' in Romanian. But it might be possible to have been confused s and z giving the name 'black mountain'. Slavic name translations of Paleo Balkan toponyms were common, example 'Cernavoda' meaning 'black water' from an earlier 'Axiopa' id. (Dacian placename). I've thought of it before too, but I've scratched it due to the implications and never mentioned until now.

As for the others, a reconstruction of the vocabulary like it was done with Dacian would help.

Ike
30-06-13, 17:54
Mal i zi should mean something like mountain of black in Albanian.
That could refer to Montenegro (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/europe/fm_yugoslavia_pol96.jpg), or any Crni Vrh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crni_Vrh) toponym of which are many in that area.
Where did you get this thing about the birth place?

zanipolo
01-07-13, 12:48
Mal i zi should mean something like mountain of black in Albanian.
That could refer to Montenegro (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/europe/fm_yugoslavia_pol96.jpg), or any Crni Vrh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crni_Vrh) toponym of which are many in that area.
Where did you get this thing about the birth place?

what are you trying to achieve here?

the word comes from--
montenegro from venetian language
monte = mountain
negro = black


in italian language
montagna = mountain
nero= black

in slavic its something else

Ike
01-07-13, 15:39
The origin of term montenegro in not questioned. It is used here as an international toponym, with the map included.