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Anthro-inclined
16-02-13, 23:47
I In Finland Reaches An Average Frequency Of 28 Percent, My Question Is, Was I In Finland Mostly A Result Of Recent Migrations From The Rest Of Scandinavia Or Does I In Finland Mostly Come From The Repopulation Of Northern Europe After The LGM, Meaning That It Has Been In Finland For Over 11000 YBP, Or Is It A Mix Of Both. Evidence For The Latter Is That I Has About A 40 Percent Frequency In Saami Which Is A Much Higher Average Than In Finns, And The Saami Are Thought To Descend From Post Glacial Migrants, Evidence A Recent Introduction Possibly From Sweden Is That I In Finland Is At Its Highest Frequencies As You Get Closer To Sweden And Its Highest At The Coast Of The Gulf Of Bothnia. Please Give Me Your Thoughts.

nordicwarrior
17-02-13, 06:07
Regarding your question, it may make sense to specify hg I1 in Finland rather than all I in Finland because the other I's are located in more southernly pockets (Croatia and Sardinia). Is this what you had in mind?

But the short answer to your question is it depends on who you ask. The super brains of the field have I1 origins in Denmark or Pomeria based on subclade data.

I'm a bit of a non-conformist though and am big on maps... and the maps sure look like I1 has an epicenter in either Western Finland or Eastern Sweden (or even the islands in between the two). I also factor in legends, myths, and religious teachings. When the ancient kings of Norway, Sweden, and Denmark refered back to their homelands--they meant Finland.

In one sense it doesn't matter too terribly much because it's really more useful to think of hg I1 as Baltic dwellers rather than land settlers. They took to the Sea like ducks to water (especially the Baltic). I have older I1 tribes making a seasonal circuit through large chunks of the Baltic for inner-tribal trade to help prepare for brutal winters. I also have early I1 going deep up into Continental rivers looking for speciality items such as Fir resin to repair boat leaks, etc. etc.

adamo
14-04-13, 11:57
Finland as 30% haplogroup I1a , the Scandinavian variety. It arrived on th west coast of Finland via nearby Sweden.

Jackson
14-04-13, 12:22
Apparently it looks like some of the I1 in Sweden (particularly in east Sweden) is of Finnic origin and most of the I1 in Finland is not from Sweden. Apparently there appears to have been several times as much movement from Finland to eastern Sweden than the other way round throughout history and prehistory, this correlates with the levels of N1c in eastern Sweden and also people working on I1 have apparently changed their minds based on the evidence and Bothnian clade is now older, making I1 a movement from east to west:

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/39229-New-datings-for-I1-clades-the-Bothnian-now-3000-years

adamo
14-04-13, 15:36
The levels of N1c in Sweden are low. There was barely any genetic influx from Finland towards Sweden. The I in Sweden came from continental Europe through northern Germany/Denmark to southern Scandinavia from where it subsequently spread, I'm sure you will find many people willing to contest your theory

Jackson
14-04-13, 16:11
It's not my theory, i'm just adding some more information to the discussion. It's the opinion of people who know more about it than you or i, though.

adamo
14-04-13, 20:39
True lolll but anyways

Balder
14-04-13, 22:51
Apparently it looks like some of the I1 in Sweden (particularly in east Sweden) is of Finnic origin and most of the I1 in Finland is not from Sweden.

They are distorting Nordtvedt's conclusion (of course full of personal nationalistic creep agenda). Nordtvedt just posted some of the I1 clades in Finland pre date for more than 3000 years ago. And nothing more.
http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree%20for%20I1d%20L22+.pdf

What is truth. However, its origin is still ultimate Scandinavian, like it or not. Obviously, these (Bothnian) mutations that then happened there were, of course, Finnish. No doubt of that.

Possibly according professor Nordtvedt's last conclusion, some of I1 in Finland went there via Scandinavia during the pre-Bronze age. Movement of people, including Scandinavia, the Isle of Gotland and Finland has always existed for more than 4000 years ago. It is already well known among the Swedish, Danish and Finnish archaeologists.

Finnish professor T. Lappalainen also said it in 2009:
Migration Waves to the Baltic Sea Region
T. Lappalainen et al.
https://www.doria.fi/bitstream/handle/10024/44624/humangen.pdf



Apparently there appears to have been several times as much movement from Finland to eastern Sweden than the other way round throughout history and prehistory, this correlates with the levels of N1c in eastern Sweden and also people working on I1 have apparently changed their minds based on the evidence and Bothnian clade is now older, making I1 a movement from east to west:

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/39229-New-datings-for-I1-clades-the-Bothnian-now-3000-years

The movement of people in the past, (pre-historic times, Bronze-Age, and Iron-Age (Viking era)), was more from Scandinavia to Finland. In recent times like from the 17th century (Finnish forest immigrants in Sweden) and the industrialization of Sweden in 20th century, it was greater from Finland to Sweden.

I1 in Finland is close to 28-30%. (depending on the source.)

N1C in Sweden is close to 10%-12%. (depending on the source.)
http://dna.scangen.se/index.php?show=stats&stat=haplopie&lang=sv&haplo_level=3&lan_sel=&database=other

And the presence of some N1C clades in Sweden date over 3000 years ago. Through some pre-historic migrations via the 'Baltic countries' to the Isle of Gotland or via Saami in Northern areas. They are not necessarily all of resettlements by Finns.
http://www.readcube.com/articles/10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201651

Balder
15-04-13, 00:27
It's not my theory, i'm just adding some more information to the discussion. It's the opinion of people who know more about it than you or i, though.
'Random' internet Finnish nationalists?!!

They distorted professor Nordtvedt's conclusion. Nordtvedt in no paper or calculation claimed that the I1 originated in Finland (just that the presence of some I1 clades there date to 3000 years). The I1 (Bothnian) mutations are another different story though.

adamo
15-04-13, 00:34
But of course. Yes, the swedes/Norwegian Nordics left bigger genetic impact on Finland than Finland did to the rest of Nordics , most of the I in Finland if not virtually the totality of 28-30% is I1. If Sweden has 10% N1c note that Norway has between 2-3%, negligible levels. If Finland had indeed, as falsely stated in this study, genetically impacted the Scandinavian Nordic states, this would be visible in the genetics, which it simply isnt. They impacted Sweden, in a very minor way. The swedes on the other hand impacted Finns about 300% more.

Jackson
15-04-13, 03:11
Apparently N1c is relatively high in eastern Sweden, and there is some I1 Bothnian, but almost all the I1 in Finland is Bothnian, so it doesn't seem to have been a major movement from Sweden to Finland apparently. Just read through the thread i linked, they can explain it better than i can.

nordicwarrior
15-04-13, 03:18
This is why the on-going research into y-haplogroups in Denmark is so important. We're waiting to see what these scientists find. Nothing is as accurate linking haplogroup membership with ancient physical remains which can firmly locate the time/place orientation with carbon dating and burial artifacts.

Personally I'm hoping for a Denmark tie, but I'll be O.K. with a Finnish or Russian start too. Whatever the findings, hg. I1 hit it's stride while in Scandinavia.

Balder
15-04-13, 03:33
Apparently N1c is relatively high in eastern Sweden, and there is some I1 Bothnian,
Apparently you're not familiar with Sweden and their ethno cultural regions. Overall Sweden has 10-12% of N1c (in some studies it reaches 15%).

From Swedish genealogist Anders Berg project below, it was almost 10%. Here: (http://dna.scangen.se (http://dna.scangen.se/)).

Sweden as a whole, is 49,6% I1, 9,7% N1c
http://dna.scangen.se/index.php?show=stats&stat=haplopie&lang=sv&haplo_level=3&lan_sel=&database=other

(Ethno-cultural regions):
Svealand 33,3% I1, 17% N1c
http://dna.scangen.se/index.php?show=stats&stat=haplopie&lang=sv&haplo_level=4&lan_sel=AB%2CC%2CD%2CT%2CU&database=other

Götaland 58,5% I1, absent N1c (I'm surpresed here!)
http://dna.scangen.se/index.php?show=stats&stat=haplopie&lang=sv&haplo_level=4&lan_sel=K%2CL%2CM&database=other

Norrland 48,3% I1, 24,1% N1c
http://dna.scangen.se/index.php?show=stats&stat=haplopie&lang=sv&haplo_level=4&lan_sel=AC%2CBD&database=other


--------
At Karlsson study it was close to 12%- 13% of N1c.
http://www.readcube.com/articles/10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201651



but almost all the I1 in Finland is Bothnian, so it doesn't seem to have been a major movement from Sweden to Finland apparently.

Listen, all I1 (Bothnian) mutation is Finnish. But all I1 present in Finland (in any case, they hate this) has roots in Scandinavia. They did not arrive there from Mars. Alright?!


Just read through the thread i linked, they can explain it better than i can.
Nordtvedt has never said that the I1 originated in Finland, simply that it (some I1 clades) exists there to 3000 years ago. That it is.

Anthro-inclined
15-04-13, 03:46
To clarify on my initial question, was I1 in Finland before N1c. I know N entered circa 6 to 8 thousand years ago, but before this entry was Finland or the region we know today as Finland predominantly I1? And if so do modern Finns pocess these early I1 lineages?

Balder
15-04-13, 03:46
This is why the on-going research into y-haplogroups in Denmark is so important. We're waiting to see what these scientists find. Nothing is as accurate linking haplogroup membership with ancient physical remains which can firmly locate the time/place orientation with carbon dating and burial artifacts.

Personally I'm hoping for a Denmark tie, but I'll be O.K. with a Finnish or Russian start too. Whatever the findings, hg. I1 hit it's stride while in Scandinavia.

If it was Finnish, the I-M253 article at the wikipedia would've been changed by the staff of FTDNA project to several days ago. They are always updating the article there and monitoring it against spammers. The origin of I to I1 is still from Denmark. I1 origin in Finland would not make sense at all given the route that the haplogroup I got to the north.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M253
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)

Family Tree DNA - yDNA Haplogroup I: Subclade I1
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/yDNA_I1

adamo
15-04-13, 14:46
I agree wholeheartedly with balder. Regardless if theirs I1 subclades in Finland dating to 3,000 years ago it originally arrived there from Scandinavia via continental Denmark/Germany as is so frequently documented. Yes nordicwarbler, haplogroup I1 hit its stride in Scandinavia but it didn't arrive there from Baltic states, Russia or Finland. It arrived from the south via Germany to Denmark then Scandinavia.

Balder
15-04-13, 16:45
I agree wholeheartedly with balder. Regardless if theirs I1 subclades in Finland dating to 3,000 years ago it originally arrived there from Scandinavia via continental Denmark/Germany as is so frequently documented. Yes nordicwarbler, haplogroup I1 hit its stride in Scandinavia but it didn't arrive there from Baltic states, Russia or Finland. It arrived from the south via Germany to Denmark then Scandinavia.
It's classic from keyboard Finnish 'nationalists' deny or decrease to low levels any Swedish influences there. I would not deny the influence they had on my. Nor I would increase this to all astronomical levels as well (provided the historical context weighs over to our side).

All I1 Bothnian (mutation) in Sweden has roots in Finland. On other hand, all I1 present in Finland had roots in Scandinavia, Denmark, (or via Sweden or Gotland) in anyways.

http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/y-Haplogroup_I1_Migration_Routes.jpg (http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/y-Haplogroup_I1_Migration_Routes.jpg)
http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/ (http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/)

I1 Dispersal/Expansion Map (http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/y-Haplogroup_I1_Migration_Routes.jpg):
http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/y-Haplogroup_I1_Migration_Routes.jpg

adamo
15-04-13, 17:19
Exactly, bothnian I in Sweden came from finland but long before all , I came from Scandinavia to Finland anyways.

gyms
15-04-13, 18:09
Y-haplogroup I1 is Finnugric!

nordicwarrior
15-04-13, 18:51
It's classic from keyboard Finnish 'nationalists' deny or decrease to low levels any Swedish influences there. ...

I'm confused... are you saying I'm a Finnish nationalist? I can assure you I'm not.

There are earlier threads where this subject is addressed in depth. The chink in the armor of the I1 Jutland/Northern Germany origin is that no ancient I1 remains have been found there (prior to about 300 A.D. or so). This could be because of how these tribes treated their deceased or because of the ocean level changes in these areas (which was extreme and would impact boat loving I1 more than other groups).

The Denmark y-DNA studies should answer these questions, hopefully.

nordicwarrior
15-04-13, 18:58
My last comment sounded awkward regarding the sea level changes... of course those didn't occur in 300 A.D.

Please read the previous debates on this topic to get up to speed. And relax about you I1 status... we kick butt no matter what spot on the globe we live on.

Balder
15-04-13, 19:56
I'm confused... are you saying I'm a Finnish nationalist? I can assure you I'm not.

I wasn't referring to you.




There are earlier threads where this subject is addressed in depth. The chink in the armor of the I1 Jutland/Northern Germany origin is that no ancient I1 remains have been found there (prior to about 300 A.D. or so). This could be because of how these tribes treated their deceased or because of the ocean level changes in these areas (which was extreme and would impact boat loving I1 more than other groups).

The Denmark y-DNA studies should answer these questions, hopefully.

Agreed. It's always good to have a certain criticism (and also some ceticism) to any theory. However, I doubt very seriously whether the haplotype I1's origin being in Finland. Sounds a bit far fetched and delusional to be true. Considering all the origin and route that the I has made to reach to the North.

Here an interesting argument:


Despite its young TMRCA, this clade could have its origin in a Mesolithic migration of Haplogroup I* from South-Eastern Europe about 5,000 BC. This is by no means certain. Although we have found no-one alive today carrying just one or two of the many markers that define I1, each one of these markers may define a lineage that has died out in the male line.

So all that is left is the healthy lineage I1, which appears to pop up out of nowhere in southern Jutland about 2,200 BC and is found today in Scandinavia and among descendants of the Vikings.

There is no trail of earlier clades from South-Eastern Europe. So in theory Haplogroup I could have arrived from any southern Ice Age refuge as soon as Scandinavia was left habitable by the shrinking glaciers.

It is only the fact that the spread of Haplogroup I overall leans towards Eastern Europe that has inclined researchers to look south-east for its Ice Age refuge. An alternative explanation proferred by some geneticists is that I1 is the male companion to mtDNA U5b1b1a, which seems to have travelled in the Mesolithic from Iberia to Scandinavia.

http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/haplogroupi.shtml

Balder
15-04-13, 20:19
Y-haplogroup I1 is Finnugric!

It pre date any 'modern' ethno linguistic origins. Though, it is found in all places invaded by the ancient Germanic peoples.



Professor Nordtvedt last 2013 chart on spread of I and I1:

http://i.imgur.com/3JEYtfw.png?1

adamo
15-04-13, 20:30
I know that mtdna h and v migrated from Iberia to Scandinavia but heavily doubt U5 did, maybe though I'm not a geneticist so I can't say yes or no.maybe what the study cited says is true, maybe I1 was long ago during gravettian culture more widespread in continental Europe but some LGM type winter disaster destroyed them other than the survivors who some who ended up in Scandinavia but I doubt it. At the same time it would make sense considering hg I came to Scandinavia via continental Europe anyways

adamo
15-04-13, 20:57
Wow can you look at that... If this map is indeed correct we can draw so many conclusions from it. So Bosnian-herzegovinans I-M26 arrived to Sardinia by crossing over to Italy .it arrived to Iberia afterwards, also some how ending up in England,where it left negligible levels. It neither dominated in Italy nor Spain even though lots of the I in Spain is of this variety it must amount to like 4-5% of spaniards. It dominated in Sardinia though, only. The red L233 branch moved from Balkans through continental Europe to Netherlands then England. It must be an ancient unsuccessful movement destroyed by LGM, a negligible branch. Most of these branches must be found at negligible levels, destroyed by the LGM. Also the green lines going across Italy that's a weird branch that must own very low levels of men from those countries , weird. Even at low frequencies , English French and Spanish and definitely Sardinians have I-M26. There are also other groups of I2 or I that are odd like the English I-M284 or I-L38 which "hooked" onto Celtic cultures near the la tene culture area and are found at very very low frequencies in the Rhineland and British isles. Also I-M284 is linked to the la tene culture and before that to Romanian Dacian tribes that where I-M223 positive. I-M223 of which I-M284 is a subclade, is found at its highest frequencies circa 4% of Germans, Dutch, Belgians and Danes, this branch as I noted above came from Dacian tribes and subsequently began moving towards Czech Republic, some of it even ending up in France at low frequencies.

gyms
15-04-13, 21:12
Balder,look at the Swiderian Culture : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiderian_culture
and post-Swiderian Culture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komsa_culture . "The “history of population of haplogroup I1 is more complicated than a simple expansion from Scandinavia, and it may include ancient relations between the Finno-Ugric peoples of Eastern Europe and the ancestors of German-speaking Scandinavians.” The Russian journal of genetic genealogi: http://aaronjhill.wordpress.com/2010/11/06/the-russian-journal-of-genetic-genealogy-%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%8F/ and don´t forget the Gravettian Culture!

adamo
15-04-13, 21:39
Some of the balkanian I-M423 would migrate north to Poland becoming L-147 which would subsequently migrate to Moldova, rare parts of Ukraine and Croatia at low % . Note 12a is also found at higher frequencies I believe in Moldova. The L161 would migrate the opposite way as its brother 147, going through northern Germany ending up in England at low %. L38 is a weird branch that I cannot even being to explain. Very low levels for most of these bizarre I2 sub-branches some at much higher levels though such as M423 of course. Also there is the I-M227 which is directly I1. It has been found in a few polish and Austrian samples but overall it's found highest at slightly under 1% of certain Slavic and Uralic people's.

Anthro-inclined
16-04-13, 00:51
Balder,look at the Swiderian Culture : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiderian_culture and post-Swiderian Culture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komsa_culture . "The “history of population of haplogroup I1 is more complicated than a simple expansion from Scandinavia, and it may include ancient relations between the Finno-Ugric peoples of Eastern Europe and the ancestors of German-speaking Scandinavians.” The Russian journal of genetic genealogi: http://aaronjhill.wordpress.com/2010/11/06/the-russian-journal-of-genetic-genealogy-%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%8F/ and don´t forget the Gravettian Culture!
The Gravettian culture no longer existed at the time of the repopulation of Finno- Scandinavia. Circa 11000 to 13000 years ago, the prodominant culture was the Magdelenian in west Europe, and was most likely the one to migrate north for the initial repopulation, the Gravettian period was about 20000 to 28000 YBP just before the LGM.

gyms
16-04-13, 09:45
Yes,I know that.I am talking about a possible Connection between the Gravettian-Epigravettian-Swiderian Cultures. "Around 32,000, the Gravettian culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravettian_culture) appears in the Crimean Mountains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Mountains) (southern Ukraine).[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_Europe#cite_note-orig-8)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_Europe#cite_note-bbc-9) Around 22,000 BCE, the Solutrean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solutrean) and Gravettian cultures reach the southwestern region of Europe. The Gravettian technology/culture has been theorized to have come with migrations of people from the Middle East, Anatolia, and the Balkans. A theory suggests they carried the Haplogroup I (Y-DNA) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)) but scientists have failed to recover Y-DNA of that age. The cultures might be linked with the transitional cultures mentioned before, because their techniques have some similarities and are both very different from Aurignacian ones but this issue is thus far very obscure. The Gravettian soon disappears from southwestern Europe, with the notable exception of the Mediterranean coasts of Iberia. The Gravettian culture also appears in the Caucasus and the Zagros mountains."

nordicwarrior
16-04-13, 11:22
There's alot of I1 in Russia. Further SNP testing will be instumental in determining the age of these subclades-- and this will help us determine the route(s) travelled.

We need more data points in able to prove the path taken to Scandinavia. With the on-going research in Denmark (archeological) and as more precise SNP testing is performed (all over, but especially in Russia and Germany)... we will have a better idea of historical movements of I1.

Anthro-inclined
16-04-13, 21:17
Yes,I know that.I am talking about a possible Connection between the Gravettian-Epigravettian-Swiderian Cultures. "Around 32,000, the Gravettian culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravettian_culture) appears in the Crimean Mountains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Mountains) (southern Ukraine).[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_Europe#cite_note-orig-8)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_Europe#cite_note-bbc-9) Around 22,000 BCE, the Solutrean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solutrean) and Gravettian cultures reach the southwestern region of Europe. The Gravettian technology/culture has been theorized to have come with migrations of people from the Middle East, Anatolia, and the Balkans. A theory suggests they carried the Haplogroup I (Y-DNA) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)) but scientists have failed to recover Y-DNA of that age. The cultures might be linked with the transitional cultures mentioned before, because their techniques have some similarities and are both very different from Aurignacian ones but this issue is thus far very obscure. The Gravettian soon disappears from southwestern Europe, with the notable exception of the Mediterranean coasts of Iberia. The Gravettian culture also appears in the Caucasus and the Zagros mountains."
Ah ok, I failed to understand the connection in your initial post. It would be very interesting if your theory is true, unfourtunatley NW is right and the genetic evidence is lacking, but none the less very thought provoking connection.

Ivar of Rasa Bol
18-01-20, 14:21
Y-haplogroup I1 is Finnugric!

Well, is it really so? :thinking:

I am I1-M253 and did my Big Y-700 last autumn. This SNP Tracker map shows my paternal lineage´s route to Finland via Scandinavia.



11756

Palermo Trapani
19-01-20, 22:54
Balder: Thanks for that map, My ancestors are all from Sicily-Southern Italy. I just had my DNA done from National Geographic which gave me Y and M Dna, along with Neanderthal admixture, which Ancestry does not provide. Well, I have I-M223 (P78 clade), which is also I guess I2A2. Any theories on that clade in Italy. One explanation is that it is a hold over pre Ice age and was a major Y Haplogroup of the Western Hunter Gatherers. So if the WHG used Southern Europe as a refuge, it could have been a lineage that survived post ice-age in Southern Europe before the expansion of Early European Farmers. This explanation makes sense to me.

PS if there is a thread already started on Haplogroup I in Italy, let me know and I will move my question there. Thanks in advance. Still a little new here.

ratchet_fan
27-06-20, 22:13
So what was in Finland before I1 and N1c is both are recent?