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View Full Version : Sicilians: Which groups overlap? (Multiple choice version)



oreo_cookie
18-02-13, 03:23
Hopefully people don't get angry I am doing a multiple choice version since I had a single choice one from 2 years ago. But I thought I'd pose the question this way, since it is my ethnicity and the way I did the thread before was more limiting.

If a moderator wants to close it they can.

Eldritch
21-02-13, 03:05
Greeks and Iberians mostly.

oreo_cookie
21-02-13, 03:41
Greeks and Iberians mostly.

Some Spanish yes but the Portuguese are very distinct looking in my opinion. But maybe I am just saying this because I have grown up in a family that is partially Sicilian and partially Portuguese, so I am accustomed to the differences.

Cambrius (The Red)
25-02-13, 17:23
Sicilians are very diverse. Generally speaking, the only "overlap" I see is with Greeks, Italians from the south, Maltese and Levantines.

Cambrius (The Red)
25-02-13, 17:24
Not Iberians who are native, as a general rule. West is west and east is east.

oreo_cookie
27-02-13, 20:22
Canary Islanders probably have some resemblance but probably not all Iberians.

MOESAN
28-02-13, 16:45
Not Iberians who are native, as a general rule. West is west and east is east.

why this sort of "iberian specificity"?: the southern phenotypes with their variants are very numerous in Iberia and if it is true they do not compound the whole or Spain they are very heavy in some parts of it - it is true too that the distributions of western mediterranean types and eastern ones are not similar in Mediterranea, but it is going to far pretending there would not be any overlap between Sicilians and Spaniards: by the way I notice that western Sicilians are more brachycephallic than the eastern ones and show some 'alpinelike' people (kind of Sicanes? of Ligurians?) - Its true too that some prognathic brachycephals existed in Tunisia... a crossing?

zanipolo
02-03-13, 00:17
why this sort of "iberian specificity"?: the southern phenotypes with their variants are very numerous in Iberia and if it is true they do not compound the whole or Spain they are very heavy in some parts of it - it is true too that the distributions of western mediterranean types and eastern ones are not similar in Mediterranea, but it is going to far pretending there would not be any overlap between Sicilians and Spaniards: by the way I notice that western Sicilians are more brachycephallic than the eastern ones and show some 'alpinelike' people (kind of Sicanes? of Ligurians?) - Its true too that some prognathic brachycephals existed in Tunisia... a crossing?

http://www.bestofsicily.com/genetics.htm

oreo_cookie
02-03-13, 06:09
I could post genetic charts but I hoped to keep the thread about the phenotypes only.

MOESAN
03-03-13, 16:55
http://www.bestofsicily.com/genetics.htm

thanks for the link - bit it is a litlle bit "general" and not too precise - thanks all the way, nevertheless - have a good Sunday

Cambrius (The Red)
05-03-13, 00:27
why this sort of "iberian specificity"?: the southern phenotypes with their variants are very numerous in Iberia and if it is true they do not compound the whole or Spain they are very heavy in some parts of it - it is true too that the distributions of western mediterranean types and eastern ones are not similar in Mediterranea, but it is going to far pretending there would not be any overlap between Sicilians and Spaniards: by the way I notice that western Sicilians are more brachycephallic than the eastern ones and show some 'alpinelike' people (kind of Sicanes? of Ligurians?) - Its true too that some prognathic brachycephals existed in Tunisia... a crossing?

Thank you for your commnets.

It's a matter of definition. "Overlap" means substantial equivalencies exist. That is certainly not the case as regards Sicilians v French, Spaniards and Portuguese. It's more accurate to say there are minor and sporadic equivalencies in appearance between Sicilians and SW / Western Europeans. Also, it is a mistake to treat SW Europe as simply Med, when in fact the population groups there are primarily some form of Atlantic as regards phenotype.

Cambrius (The Red)
05-03-13, 00:29
I could post genetic charts but I hoped to keep the thread about the phenotypes only.

And, yes, autosomal DNA research shows that there cannot be any real overlap between Iberians, French and Sicilians.

oreo_cookie
05-03-13, 00:46
I've seen the phenotypical similarity between Sicilians and Iberians described as akin to that between say, Germans and Russians. Both "northern" looking, but distinct. Would you agree with that?

MOESAN
05-03-13, 23:47
it's not only a matter of external looks but even the autosomals overlap in some visible %'s (33% as a proxi; between "mean" Spain ans South Italy, close enough to Sicily, principally through the W-Mediter "Sardinian" pooling as "caucasic" oir "caucasian" play a very little game in this overlap) - and I remember you that Spain or France are large countries with regional differences of means, on every ground!

MOESAN
05-03-13, 23:49
to go farther on my thoughts way, as I wrote yet, even Sicily shows differences according to places and to history

Cambrius (The Red)
06-03-13, 18:04
it's not only a matter of external looks but even the autosomals overlap in some visible %'s (33% as a proxi; between "mean" Spain ans South Italy, close enough to Sicily, principally through the W-Mediter "Sardinian" pooling as "caucasic" oir "caucasian" play a very little game in this overlap) - and I remember you that Spain or France are large countries with regional differences of means, on every ground!

All the autosomal research shows Spaniards, Portuguese and Southern French are very distant from Sicilians. Actually, the SW European grouping is closer - although they certainly do not cluster with - to British Isles ethnicities than to Sicilians or Southern Italians. Go back to the "overlap" v grades of "similarity" definitions I provided above and things should be quite clear. The West is always considerably more West than it is East and vice versa.

Cambrius (The Red)
06-03-13, 18:05
to go farther on my thoughts way, as I wrote yet, even Sicily shows differences according to places and to history

We are talking about overall appearances. EVERY region of Europe has phenotypes that are atypical (i.e., not common for the specific geography).

Cambrius (The Red)
06-03-13, 18:10
I've seen the phenotypical similarity between Sicilians and Iberians described as akin to that between say, Germans and Russians. Both "northern" looking, but distinct. Would you agree with that?

Agree somewhat.

oreo_cookie
07-03-13, 03:33
Except for Brits and Irish I would argue there is some degree of overlap, be it strong or weak, with every other country I put on the poll.

oreo_cookie
10-03-13, 10:49
Agree somewhat.

Do you think there is a more adequate comparison?

AdeoF
10-03-13, 19:29
I only see N. Italians, Greeks, Sardinian, Maltese and Spanish in Sicilians.

Nobody1
13-03-13, 12:43
For all you amateurs that just dont know any better.

The Caucasoid race is divided into its sub-races - [Nordic - Alpine - Mediterranean - Arminoid - Iranid]
The Sicilians are classified by all Anthropologists (Banse, Eickstedt, Deniker, Coon, Grant, Biasutti, Lundman etc.) as Mediterraneans (Caucasoid)

E. Banse: [westische = mediterranean / ostische = alpine]
imageshack.us/photo/my-images/54/rasseml6.jpg/

some plates of Sicilians and S. Italians from Carleton S. Coon - Races of Europe
FIG.1. A Sicilian from Messina. Aberrant in respect to an excessive mandible width, but otherwise typical.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/853/10858373.png/
FIG.2. An equally typical example of the same racial strain, from the region of Naples in Italy. The only aberrant feature of this individual is his blue eyes.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/849/23254114.png/

Sicilians are closest to S. Italians, Greeks, Berbers and other Mediterranid (Caucasoid) people

Madison Grant - The Passing of the Great Race (1922)
-"The Berbers of north Africa to-day are racially identical with the Spaniards and south Italians"-

MOESAN
13-03-13, 21:09
We are talking about overall appearances. EVERY region of Europe has phenotypes that are atypical (i.e., not common for the specific geography).

I'm not speaking about individuals but about means made by different percentages of individuals (different history - otherwise, all these threads have no sense!

adamo
13-04-13, 01:59
They overlap with middle easterners and or Greco-anatolians (Turks,Lebanese,Armenians) 28%, franco Germanic celts (french,swiss) 25% and North Africans (Egyptians,Tunisians) 20-25%

oreo_cookie
02-05-13, 21:49
There is a divide in haplogroups from one side of the island to the other.. eastern Sicilians have more E1b1b and western Sicilians more R1b, but both sides of the island have a lot of J2.

MOESAN
02-05-13, 23:57
the phenotypes concerning bones show some variations W-E /
I think the previous mixes of diverses population (with a lot of N-italy people, autochtonous + Ligurians or something close to them + Sicules) contained a lot of Y-R1b (U152 strong enough) were pushed westwards by Greeks colonists (cause of Y-E1b, I think) - for Y-J2 some subclades derserve deep analysis because they could be come there at different times from different cultures and places

oreo_cookie
03-05-13, 00:09
the phenotypes concerning bones show some variations W-E /
I think the previous mixes of diverses population (with a lot of N-italy people, autochtonous + Ligurians or something close to them + Sicules) contained a lot of Y-R1b (U152 strong enough) were pushed westwards by Greeks colonists (cause of Y-E1b, I think) - for Y-J2 some subclades derserve deep analysis because they could be come there at different times from different cultures and places

When the Greeks settled in the east of the island they destroyed the original cultures there and pushed them westward across the island, but also kept them out of the west, which was Elymian/Phoenician territory. So their descendants today would be in central Sicily, in the least populated part of the island.

adamo
03-05-13, 03:44
The Sicules where E3b+J2, the sicani where R1b u152, the western most regions of Sicily WHERE elymians/Phoenicians.

Nobody1
03-05-13, 04:16
The Sicules where E3b+J2, the sicani where R1b u152, the western most regions of Sicily WHERE elymians/Phoenicians.

No,

Sicani (Iberians / West Sicily) were R1b (M269 total)
R1b-M269 in West Sicily = 30.3% Di Gaetano et al 2009

Siculi (Ligurians / East Sicily) were R1b (S28-U152 specific)
akin to Umbro-Ligures in Po Valley or Ligures in Rhone Valley
R1b-M269 in East Sicily = 18.4% Di Gaetano et al 2009 of which 12-16% R1b S28-U152 Busby et al 2011

R1b S28 (U152) - Busby et al 2011
http://imageshack.us/a/img825/4572/busby2011.png

R1b is lower in East Sicily because East Sicily was also heavily Greek (not just Ligurian Siculi);

pink=Phoenician / blue=Greek / Elymians / Sicani / Sicels (Siculi)
http://imageshack.us/a/img209/8526/sic1.png

---

Also interesting to note about Sicily is the Normannic contribution, especially in West Sicily
(Courts, Important fiefdoms etc.)

I1-M253 = 8.2% in West Sicily [122 samples] but only 1.7% in East Sicily [114 samples]; Di Gaetano et al 2009

Di Gaetano et al 2009
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/
Busby et al 2011
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full

oreo_cookie
03-05-13, 04:31
R1b in western Sicily is more likely due to people from the Italian mainland moving there during Norman rule. Iberian influence in Sicily is very low on an autosomal level.

Nobody1
03-05-13, 04:32
R1b in western Sicily is more likely due to people from the Italian mainland moving there during Norman rule. Iberian influence in Sicily is very low on an autosomal level.

The Sicani were ancient [Pre-Indo-European] Iberians, not modern-day Iberians.

oreo_cookie
03-05-13, 04:36
The Sicani were ancient [Pre-Indo-European] Iberians, not modern-day Iberians.

In that case they may have had more in common with North Africans and/or Basques. But still there is very little Basque-like DNA in Sicilians, so I'd bet the Sicanians had little to no impact today.

Nobody1
03-05-13, 05:19
In that case they may have had more in common with North Africans and/or Basques. But still there is very little Basque-like DNA in Sicilians, so I'd bet the Sicanians had little to no impact today.

Well, who do you think the Basques the Berbers and the Sicilians cluster with?
acc. to all serious atDNA studies the closest cluster is amongst the regions themselves and not trans-regional; meaning Sicilians would cluster closest with other Sicilians, Berbers with Berbers and Basques with Basques

Genes mirror geography - J. Novembre et al. (2008)
http://imageshack.us/a/img27/7280/clustermap.png

other examples (Lao et al 2008, Price et al 2008 etc.)
http://dienekes.awardspace.com/articles/greekadna/

---

The link between the Basques (ancient Iberians in total) and the Sicilians is Historically;[U] the Sicani being ancient-Iberians

James C. Prichard - Ethnography of Europe: Vol.III (1841)
"Thucydides commences his narrative of the war of the Athenians in Sicily with a particular account of that island, and of the races of people who inhabited it.....The Sicani appear to have been the next settlers.......they were Iberes or Iberians: having been expelled from the river Sicanus, in Iberia, by the Ligurians,"

Edwin Guest - Origines Celticae (1883)
"Emporion lay a little north of Barcelona, and in calling it the 'Liguan Emporion', Scylax agrees with Thucydides, who represents the Iberian Sicanoi as having been expelled by the Ligues (Ligures) from the Sikanos i.e. from the basin of the Ebro."

Anthropologically; the dominant Caucasoid sub-race is the Mediterranean amongst Basques and Sicilians
[not really a link, just a fact]

Genetically; R1b-M269 being 30.3% in West Sicily (Sicani) and only 18.4% in East Sicily;
Di Gaetano et al 2009
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/

oreo_cookie
03-05-13, 05:30
Also it is important to note both Norman, Phoenician, and Elymian ancestry in western Sicily too. The former contributed to haplogroups like I1 and probably some R1b, whereas the latter two would have contributed much of the J2.

kamani
03-05-13, 05:30
Hg E in sicily is still a bit of a mystery.
E-v13 came from balkans.
E-M81 came from Maghreb.
how about E-M123 ??

oreo_cookie
03-05-13, 05:45
Hg E in sicily is still a bit of a mystery.
E-v13 came from balkans.
E-M81 came from Maghreb.
how about E-M123 ??

Possibly some sort of Levantine possibly? One of the Greek posters on another site said that some of the subclades in Sicily are Levantine and not Greek.

Btw, this thread is about phenotypical overlap, just wanted to point that out.

Nobody1
03-05-13, 05:56
Hg E in sicily is still a bit of a mystery.
E-v13 came from balkans.
E-M81 came from Maghreb.
how about E-M123 ??

Absolutely agree,
E-M123 is is supposed to be Levantine/Near East

Semino et al 2004
http://imageshack.us/a/img259/4131/semino.png

the mysterious part is that one might connect it with the Phoenicians and therefor West Sicily,

but West Sicily E-M123 = 2.46% and East Sicily E-M123 = 7.02%; Di Gaetano et al 2009

Might indicate that its Neolithic.

---

Also it is important to note both Norman, Phoenician, and Elymian ancestry in western Sicily too.

Elymnians are not really well attested, prob. the Neolithic population.

The Normannic contributions is more in the West of Sicily (Royal Court / Important Fiefdoms)

I1-M253 = 8.2% in West Sicily [122 samples]; Di Gaetano et al 2009
I1-M253 = 1.7% in East Sicily [114 samples]; Di Gaetano et al 2009

Also R1a = 5.51% (However the sub-clades are not known / not sure if its also Normannic)

Di Gaetano et al 2009
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/

oreo_cookie
03-05-13, 05:59
Levantine E1b might be Neolithic and not due to the Phoenicians, but in western Sicily some of the J2 is probably Phoenician.

Elymians were an Anatolian group and might have come from modern day Turkey or Armenia.

adamo
03-05-13, 12:30
Elymians where Phoenicians from the area of modern-day Lebanon on the Levantine coast

adamo
03-05-13, 12:34
Sicani where a Celtic R1b group; Sicules where a J2 greek invading substratum in my opinion, not more R1b men.

oreo_cookie
04-10-13, 21:34
In terms of autosomal genetics, Sicilians are actually closest to Ashkenazi Jews, then other southern Italians, Sephardis, Greeks, and Cypriots.

Sile
04-10-13, 23:03
I see greek, north-african, albanian, maltese and spanish in sicilians...although the spanish is probably due to the fact that south Italians made up more then 50% of Spanish infantry during the height of the Spanish Empire.

On a side note - I was waiting at the airport a few weeks ago, waiting for a relative coming from Europe and asked some "italian" passengers this question - Are there many Italians on board, ..answer........not that many , most are sicilians ...........LOL
Tradition is king!

adamo
05-10-13, 00:22
It's interesting to note when looking at a map of ancient Sicily, the Ionian colonies stretching from Himera to Tyndaris and Messene, Naxos, Catania, Leontina; also the Ionians were on Lipari islands; this also happens tone were the Siculi settled; they may have been Ionian Greeks. Syracuse and Camerina though were Dorian Greek settlements. So were Gela, Akragas, Heraclea (the Dorians were heraclids) and Selinus. Basically all of the northern, eastern and southern coasts of Sicily were colonized by Greeks; primarily of the Dorian and Ionian varieties. Then Panormus, Soleis, Eryx, Lilybaeum and Motya were ancient Phoenician sites. The indigenous SICANI people, who are thought to be celts, inhabit central Sicily, the Phoenicians are to the west and the Greeks to the east. Native Sicilian towns were Entella, Argyrium, Aetna and Segesta according to the map. To be quite honest, I'm stunned because these names seem to have a more Greek element in a way than Latin, but I am be wrong and they may have been typically west European......Segesta as was inhabited by the Elymians who came after the ancient arrival of the Phoenicians in that region.

oreo_cookie
05-10-13, 00:25
It's interesting to note when looking at a map of ancient Sicily, the Ionian colonies stretching from Himera to Tyndaris and Messene, Naxos, Catania, Leontina; also the Ionians were on Lipari islands; this also happens tone were the Siculi settled; they may have been Ionian Greeks. Syracuse and Camerina though were Dorian Greek settlements. So were Gela, Akragas, Heraclea (the Dorians were heraclids) and Selinus. Basically all of the northern, eastern and southern coasts of Sicily were colonized by Greeks; primarily of the Dorian and Ionian varieties. Then Panormus, Soleis, Eryx, Lilybaeum and Motya were ancient Phoenician sites. The indigenous SICANI people, who are thought to be celts, inhabit central Sicily, the Phoenicians are to the west and the Greeks to the east. Native Sicilian towns were Entella, Argyrium, Aetna and Segesta according to the map. To be quite honest, I'm stunned because these names seem to have a more Greek element in a way than Latin, but I am be wrong and they may have been typically west European......Segesta as was inhabited by the Elymians who came after the ancient arrival of the Phoenicians in that region.

Sicanians were likely pre-Indo European, no one knows where they were from. But what I will say is, R1b is not common at all in central Sicily today so either Sicanians were not R1b, or they did not leave a strong genetic impact.

Western Sicilians, like those from Palermo, Trapani, etc. today tend to cluster closely with Ashkenazi Jews.. I have seen some of them get Ashkenazi as their top population match. Eastern Sicilians seem to be fairly close to Greek islanders, but not to mainland Greeks (since they have more Balkan influence today than in ancient times).

All Sicilians though are genetically close enough to one another that I'd doubt that there is any real genetic diversity there today.

oreo_cookie
05-10-13, 04:11
Btw, I could post my photo since I am of Sicilian origins myself, but you never know who would see it. I have been mistaken mostly for Greek, Bulgarian, and Armenian in real life, and online I hear everything from French, Irish on one hand to Iranian on the other and everything between.

Nobody1
05-10-13, 19:13
Sicanians were likely pre-Indo European, no one knows where they were from.

post #136
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28650-italian-genetics/page6

If you think the Ancient History of Sicily is obscure than join the discussions at History & Civilizations where much of it is discussed;

oreo_cookie
05-10-13, 21:57
post #136
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28650-italian-genetics/page6

If you think the Ancient History of Sicily is obscure than join the discussions at History & Civilizations where much of it is discussed;

What the genetic data says to me is that the Neolithic population of Sicily was probably from the Caucasus or Levant, and then the Sikels (who were Indo-European Italics) settled and mixed with them, which would explain the genetics and appearance of inland Sicily where the Sikels ended up predominating; they are lighter and more continental European in appearance than those by the coast, but have a higher percentage of "Caucasus" type genes.

Yaan
05-10-13, 23:00
Greeks and Northern Italians a lot. Albanians, Bulgarians,Serbs, French,Spanish etc a bit. But my choice is Greeks and Northern Italians

Nobody1
06-10-13, 18:38
What the genetic data says to me is that the Neolithic population of Sicily was probably from the Caucasus or Levant, and then the Sikels (who were Indo-European Italics) settled and mixed with them, which would explain the genetics and appearance of inland Sicily where the Sikels ended up predominating; they are lighter and more continental European in appearance than those by the coast, but have a higher percentage of "Caucasus" type genes.

Thats a good look at it;

Although i would not associate the Sicani with the Neolithic;
They were expelled by the Ligurians in Iberia and that was most prob. during the Bronze-age ao their arrival cant be earlier;

The earliest inhabitants of Sicily were the Laestrygones and the mythical Cyclopes;
A lot of Mythology involved, but that there was a population recorded before the Sicani is thus given;
And its that population that must be the Neolithic one and many myths attested to;

oreo_cookie
06-10-13, 18:39
Thats a good look at it;

Although i would not associate the Sicani with the Neolithic;
They were expelled by the Ligurians in Iberia and that was most prob. during the Bronze-age ao their arrival cant be earlier

There is no proof, neither genetic nor linguistic, that the Sicani came from Iberia.
That was written by an ancient Greek writer, but it has never been proven.

Nobody1
06-10-13, 18:48
There is no proof, neither genetic nor linguistic, that the Sicani came from Iberia.
That was written by an ancient Greek writer, but it has never been proven.

The Language is UnClassified and only survived in inscriptions as a few personal names;
Genetically the High or Higher R1b-M269 in the modern-day pops. of the former Sicani territory can be seen as a ref. for starters;
Nowhere else in the surroundings (in and outside Sicily) is R1b-M269 that high (30.3% - DiGaetano 2009 122 samples west sicily) - so there must be a specialty to this area and that could be the Historically attested Iberian Sicani;

The Sicilians are a product of their history which is also reflected in the Hg (Y & mt) variety and also in autosomalDNA;
Its hard to extract the sole Sicani out of what is Neolithic, Greek, Phoenician/Punic, Normannic, Lombard or Saracen;

oreo_cookie
06-10-13, 19:30
The Language is UnClassified and only survived in inscriptions as a few personal names;
Genetically the High or Higher R1b-M269 in the modern-day pops. of the former Sicani territory can be seen as a ref. for starters

It's not. Sicani were in central Sicily, where the most common haplogroups are J2, G2, and E1b. R1b is more common around Palermo along with J2.

Nobody1
06-10-13, 20:14
It's not. Sicani were in central Sicily, where the most common haplogroups are J2, G2, and E1b. R1b is more common around Palermo along with J2.

Whats not?

The Sicani once occupied the entire Island before being pushed west by the Siculi;
The Elymians only had settled 2 towns; Eryx and Egesta - Thucydides;
And as i mentioned in terms of Hg's in post #51; the G2a, J2a, E-V13 and E-M123 could all come from diff. folks in diff. times starting with Neolithics and the Cyclopes and Laestrygonians;

oreo_cookie
06-10-13, 20:20
Whats not?

The Sicani once occupied the entire Island before being pushed west by the Siculi;
The Elymians only had settled 2 towns; Eryx and Egesta - Thucydides;
And as i mentioned in terms of Hg's in post #51; the G2a, J2a, E-V13 and E-M123 could all come from diff. folks in diff. times starting with Neolithics and the Cyclopes and Laestrygonians;

Well autosomally, Iberians are not close to Sicilians so either the Sicanians were not Iberian, or the Sicanians did not have a significant genetic impact. Also keep in mind Sicilians and Calabrese are genetically identical and the Sicanians were not in Calabria.

Nobody1
06-10-13, 20:34
Well autosomally, Iberians are not close to Sicilians so either the Sicanians were not Iberian, or the Sicanians did not have a significant genetic impact.

post #51
The Sicilians are a product of their history which is also reflected in the Hg (Y & mt) variety and also in autosomalDNA;
Its hard to extract the sole Sicani out of what is Neolithic, Greek, Phoenician/Punic, Normannic, Lombard or Saracen;

What i tried to say with this is that i dont think that any Sicilian samples today (modern-day) can be designated as purly Sicani; There is no pure or sole Sicani pop. in Sicily today so of course there are clear divergance from modern-day Iberians; But the Sicani element is still a part of the modern-day West Sicilians amongst the others;


Also keep in mind Sicilians and Calabrese are genetically identical and the Sicanians were not in Calabria.

Of course,
Also depends from where in Sicily the samples were from but overall the Sicilians cluster with other South Italians;
Which is of course based on the many Historic similarities and peoples; Sicani being not one of them (in common);

DiGaetano et al 2012-
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0043759
http://imageshack.us/a/img208/9670/55ub.png

oreo_cookie
06-10-13, 22:18
There is no pure or sole Sicani pop. in Sicily today so of course there are clear divergance from modern-day Iberians; But the Sicani element is still a part of the modern-day West Sicilians amongst the others;


You first have to prove to me conclusively that the Sicani were Iberians. There is no way to do it, and no evidence genetically of it.

Also, most Sicilians today are descended from those living by the coasts.. the areas with the most Norman, Phoenician, and Greek input and the least Sicani and Siculi, since they were driven to the center of the island.

Nobody1
07-10-13, 21:55
You first have to prove to me conclusively that the Sicani were Iberians.

Both Philistus and Thucydides record the Sicani as being Iberians driven from Iberia by the invading Ligurians;

The conclusive part is that Scylax recorded Ligurians in that part of Iberia (N. of the Ebro) in which the Sicani once dwelled (and being expelled by the Ligurians) before reaching Sicily;

Timaeus on the other hand is the first to claim (but after Phil. and Thucy.) that the Sicani were Indigenous;
Diodorus sides with Timaeus and Dionysius sides with Philistus and Thucydides (Who of course are in turn confirmed by Scylax);


Also, most Sicilians today are descended from those living by the coasts.. the areas with the most Norman, Phoenician, and Greek input and the least Sicani and Siculi, since they were driven to the center of the island.

possible

oreo_cookie
07-10-13, 21:59
Well in that case, the Sicani must have been genetically assimilated by invading groups, because there is nothing conclusive linking Sicilians to Iberians.. the type of R1b in Sicily is Italic, not Iberian. Greek and North African influence can be proven by certain sublades.. this is not true for Iberian influence in Sicily.

Also, people in Enna are mostly E1b1b and J2, without much R1b. And that was Sikel territory. You said Sicanians originally lived in all of Sicily.. well, I don't see how this could be if they were Iberian given that they left little to no impact anywhere.

Nobody1
08-10-13, 00:36
You said Sicanians originally lived in all of Sicily.. well, I don't see how this could be if they were Iberian given that they left little to no impact anywhere.

Yes;
Before they were pushed West into Western Sicily by the invading Siculi emerging from the East - from the mainland;


Well in that case, the Sicani must have been genetically assimilated by invading groups, because there is nothing conclusive linking Sicilians to Iberians

Exactly;
Unfortunately DiGaetano et al 2009 did not test for the sub-clades of the 30.3% R1b-M269 (122 samples) in Western Sicily so not known how much is of DF27; Would be good to know that value; None the less R1b-M269 is far more common in the West than in the East and Surrounding Regions; Corresponds nicely with the Iberian Sicani and the West (as a base pop.);
Boattini et al 2013 only has samples from Eastern Sicily and from Agrigento (Greek area);

Enna is interesting because its also one of the major Medieval towns; Could you post the study of it?
Catania also important Medieval (Staufer) town had 11.5% R1b-U106 - 52 samples Boattini et al 2013
Or West Sicily which was core Normannic fiefdoms (unlike the east) had 8.2% I1-M253 - 122 samples DiGaetano et al 2009

Acc. to Busby et al 2011 the East of Sicily is higher in R1b-U152 (12%-16%)

oreo_cookie
08-10-13, 01:48
Most of western Sicilian R1b is of Germanic and North Italian variant, not Iberian. Iberian R1b is rarely found outside of Iberia or Latin America.

Autosomally all Sicilians cluster closely, but not identical -- eastern Sicilians score closer to Greeks, central Sicilians are high in Caucasus and low in anything MENA or North European, and western Sicilians are highest in both MENA and Northern European.

Sile
12-10-13, 03:27
unsure if link below has been included before.

http://volgagermanbrit.us/documents/ejhg2008120a.pdf

oreo_cookie
12-10-13, 18:03
That's a haplogroup study. To really know where groups cluster you would want to see an autosomal study.

However it's conclusion was this:

"These data are compatible with the hypothesis that the largest historical demographic impact on Sicilian popula- tion was by the Greek settlers. A non-trivial question to raise for making this interpretation more plausible is whether the Greek colonies were of such size to lead to the diffusion of their genes. Because of the privileged position of Greece as ‘the door’ from the Near East to the Mediterranean, by the end of the Bronze Age the average density of the population was higher in Greece than in Europe by a factor of 3:3.7 inhabitants per square kilo- metre.34"

Sile
12-10-13, 20:21
That's a haplogroup study. To really know where groups cluster you would want to see an autosomal study.

However it's conclusion was this:

"These data are compatible with the hypothesis that the largest historical demographic impact on Sicilian popula- tion was by the Greek settlers. A non-trivial question to raise for making this interpretation more plausible is whether the Greek colonies were of such size to lead to the diffusion of their genes. Because of the privileged position of Greece as ‘the door’ from the Near East to the Mediterranean, by the end of the Bronze Age the average density of the population was higher in Greece than in Europe by a factor of 3:3.7 inhabitants per square kilo- metre.34"

I agree, but do you refer to the types of greeks, i.e, Doric, ionion, aeolian etc ?

Angela
13-10-13, 00:53
Most of western Sicilian R1b is of Germanic and North Italian variant, not Iberian. Iberian R1b is rarely found outside of Iberia or Latin America.

Autosomally all Sicilians cluster closely, but not identical -- eastern Sicilians score closer to Greeks, central Sicilians are high in Caucasus and low in anything MENA or North European, and western Sicilians are highest in both MENA and Northern European.

Could you provide me with a link to a published autosomal analysis or PCA plot comparing eastern Sicilians, Central Sicilians and Western Sicilians separately to other populations, including the Greek ones? I'm unaware of any such analysis.

Btw, I don't know what you mean by the fact that Iberian R1b is rarely found outside of Iberia and the New World. That doesn't seem to be the case for DF-27. Perhaps you're speaking about one particular subclade of that?

oreo_cookie
13-10-13, 01:05
Could you provide me with a link to a published autosomal analysis or PCA plot comparing eastern Sicilians, Central Sicilians and Western Sicilians separately to other populations, including the Greek ones? I'm unaware of any such analysis.

Btw, I don't know what you mean by the fact that Iberian R1b is rarely found outside of Iberia and the New World. That doesn't seem to be the case for DF-27. Perhaps you're speaking about one particular subclade of that?

It's on this chart, Sicilian is broken down. The differences are not that great but you can see that North European, Arabic, and North African are lowest in the central Sicily group and highest in the west. Different Greeks are on there too (mainland Greeks as you see have MUCH more North European than Sicilians).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aqr2nbGXpVFndHo5TnJZR2VFYW1lcExMNGUyWTVhe VE#gid=0

and about the Iberian R1b I mean that Sicilian subclades of R1b are not the same as the ones in Iberia, therefore it is unlikely they got there though any sort of Iberian ancestry.

Angela
21-10-13, 19:15
It's on this chart, Sicilian is broken down. The differences are not that great but you can see that North European, Arabic, and North African are lowest in the central Sicily group and highest in the west. Different Greeks are on there too (mainland Greeks as you see have MUCH more North European than Sicilians).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aqr2nbGXpVFndHo5TnJZR2VFYW1lcExMNGUyWTVhe VE#gid=0

and about the Iberian R1b I mean that Sicilian subclades of R1b are not the same as the ones in Iberia, therefore it is unlikely they got there though any sort of Iberian ancestry.

Sorry for the late response...


Thanks for the link...I made a sort of mini chart for myself to track the numbers. I may have missed something, but I don't find data for Eastern Sicilians (Catania area etc.) What I do find is a break-out for Central Sicily, Western Sicily, and Southern Sicily.

In terms of the clusters, the main ones that would apply to Sicilians or any Europeans, would be the Southwestern Cluster, the North Baltic and Baltic Finnic Cluster (there is no Northern European cluster), Caucasian (by which perhaps he means all West Asian), and "Arabic", which is an anachronism...if this is meant to track relatively old clusters and migrations, Arabs didn't exist then, but maybe I'm being too picky there. :)

So, these are the figures for the three Sicilian groups in order of Central Sicily/West Sicily/ South Sicily for the major components I mentioned:

North Baltic and Baltic/Finn: 8.61/10.60/8.67

Southwest European: 25.37/26.36/27.20

Caucasus: 35.39/33.02/34.80

Gedrosia:9.39/10.98/10.83

"Arabic": 6.73/8.58/8.01

For what you are calling the Northern European component, which in actuality is only a *Baltic* component, there is a 2 % difference between the number for the Western Sicilian, i.e. perhaps Palermo? although it doesn't say, compared to the Central and Southern Sicilian, which is hardly significant given that we're talking about *one* person from Palermo. I suppose you have in mind some sort of Norman impact there, but as I said, there isn't enough data to support that kind of inference, in my opinion.

In terms of the Southwest European, the center, because of the Lombard towns, might be expected to be a little higher in this, and instead it's the lowest, although we're only talking about a 2% spread total.

The two percent drop in Caucasus in Western Sicily compared to Central Sicily might mean that additional population migrations there cut it down a tiny bit from the rest of the island, but again, this is pretty insignificant.

Gedrosia, if, in line with some current speculation, it refers to perhaps R1b related Indo-European spread, should be higher again, in the center, and instead it's lower, albeit by *one* percent.

As for "Arabic", if one were to speculate, one might think it might show up a little lower in the center, as the Normans and the Hohenstaufens were on a mission to ethnically cleanse the area, which had become a Moorish refugia, and this is why Northern Italians were brought in to establish the "Lombard" cities. (The actual source of the population was Piemonte, Liguria, even Toscana, as well as Lombardia.) It is indeed about 2% lower than in the West, although only 1% lower than in the south.

I have to say that I am not inclined to place very much faith in these results. First of all, the creator of this run only had data from 3 Sicilians, one from each area. In my opinion, it's impossible to draw any real conclusions based on that data, especially when the numbers are actually broken out and the differences are so slight.

In terms of the analysis as a whole, it has so many components (27!) that I'm seeing an incredible amount of "noise" in some of these results. Also, it's not helpful when the results include such bottlenecked populations as the Kalash. Even less helpful is the fact that it's not very informative for anyone who isn't from the Baltics or northeastern Europe in general. That's particularly true for southern Europeans...there's only a southwestern component; no southeastern component, no northwestern component, and actually, not even a North European component...all that I see are some Baltic components.

Btw, I can't see how anyone could draw phenotypic differences between the various areas of the island based on 1% differences in admixture components.

In my opinion, the Sicilians seem to be a pretty homogenous bunch, well mixed and stirred...I think the same is true in general of the southern Italians, whereas there are distinct differences in some areas of the north, not only in comparison to the south, but in comparison to one another. My current working hypothesis is that this can be laid to the door of politics over the last 700 to one thousand years. The Kingdom of the Two Sicilies encompassed all of the South from just south of Rome to Sicily. The Byzantine era also overlaid a lot of the South.

In the north it was different...many areas ruled themselves...Venice for example, was it's own Republic until almost the 1800's. Tuscany was pretty autonomous as well. Areas like Liguria and Lombardia likewise ruled themselves as city-states for a long time, before coming under the rule of the French in the first case, and Austria Hungary in the second. It was much harder for northern Italians to move location to what was in some cases virtually another county, and so I think there was a certain amount of drift and preservation of older migration patterns.


Anyway, that's my ti cents worth...

Sile
22-10-13, 08:06
In the north it was different...many areas ruled themselves...Venice for example, was it's own Republic until almost the 1800's. Tuscany was pretty autonomous as well. Areas like Liguria and Lombardia likewise ruled themselves as city-states for a long time, before coming under the rule of the French in the first case, and Austria Hungary in the second. It was much harder for northern Italians to move location to what was in some cases virtually another county, and so I think there was a certain amount of drift and preservation of older migration patterns.


Anyway, that's my ti cents worth...

Another country, very much so.

Example, searching a way for a relative to gain italian citizenship. ( his ancestors left in 1913 ), the Italian government sent me this, I converted it.
Italian Citizenship Law No. 379 of December 14, 2000 - All applicants for Italian citizenship under Law No. 379 of December 14 2000, whose ancestors emigrated from the Austrian-Hungarian Territories before July 16 1920, must submit their applications to the Italian Consulate within the deadline of December 20 2010.
If your ancestor was born in the following regions: Veneto, Friuli Venezia Giulia, Trentino, to apply for the Italian citizenship you need to prove that he/she left Italy after July 16th 1920.

This means that any "Italian" from Veneto, Friuli, Trentino and Venezia Giulia, who left Italy before July 16 1920, is not an Italian and never was an Italian after the Italian Nation annexed these regions in 1870. ( 50 years) that's what was stated...........what ethnicity where these people for 50 years? Alpine?, Austrian?
What of all the millions that went to Brazil and Argentina from these areas, was it a "culling" system encouraging migration ??

oreo_cookie
22-10-13, 21:37
I have to say that I am not inclined to place very much faith in these results. First of all, the creator of this run only had data from 3 Sicilians, one from each area. In my opinion, it's impossible to draw any real conclusions based on that data, especially when the numbers are actually broken out and the differences are so slight.

The Western Sicilian group had more than one person in the sample. But my observations about the trends are relevant for people I know on 23andme from southern and central Sicily not included in the Dodecad data I sent you. The pattern always follows; slightly more Caucasus in the center, slightly more Northern European and North African in the west (Palermo, Agrigento etc.). But yes, the difference is only by a few percentages each time, but still apparent.



Btw, I can't see how anyone could draw phenotypic differences between the various areas of the island based on 1% differences in admixture components.

Well, for whatever reason there are differences. There is a typical "Sicilian" look (Greek islander, southern Italian look more or less) but there are a higher number of people with a "Northern"/"Nordic" influence along the northern coast (especially in Palermo), while people from the south of the island are almost homogenously dark (Ragusa, southern Caltanissetta, Agrigento), and people along the east coast tend to be the most strongly "Ancient Greek" or "Minoan" looking. My family from Messina looks very Greek, while my great grandmother from Palermo has a Levantine look, but with blue eyes and light features (she looks almost like Ruth Bader Ginsburg).

And I do think people in the central regions, like Enna and Catania, have a strongly "Anatolian" look, although many of them have light pigmentation which may be due to Lombard influence, or even just isolation.


In my opinion, the Sicilians seem to be a pretty homogenous bunch, well mixed and stirred.

Overall that may be true, but I don't discount subtle differences.

Angela
23-10-13, 06:15
The Western Sicilian group had more than one person in the sample. But my observations about the trends are relevant for people I know on 23andme from southern and central Sicily not included in the Dodecad data I sent you. The pattern always follows; slightly more Caucasus in the center, slightly more Northern European and North African in the west (Palermo, Agrigento etc.). But yes, the difference is only by a few percentages each time, but still apparent.




Well, for whatever reason there are differences. There is a typical "Sicilian" look (Greek islander, southern Italian look more or less) but there are a higher number of people with a "Northern"/"Nordic" influence along the northern coast (especially in Palermo), while people from the south of the island are almost homogenously dark (Ragusa, southern Caltanissetta, Agrigento), and people along the east coast tend to be the most strongly "Ancient Greek" or "Minoan" looking. My family from Messina looks very Greek, while my great grandmother from Palermo has a Levantine look, but with blue eyes and light features (she looks almost like Ruth Bader Ginsburg).

And I do think people in the central regions, like Enna and Catania, have a strongly "Anatolian" look, although many of them have light pigmentation which may be due to Lombard influence, or even just isolation.



Overall that may be true, but I don't discount subtle differences.

Point taken, 4 West Sicilians...however, only 1 South Sicilian and 1 Central Sicilian, and the differences are most of the time on the order of 1 percent. Nit picking perhaps, but also, the results to which you provided a link are not from a dodecad calculator created by Dienekes...they are from the MDLP calculator, hence the emphasis on Baltic type clusters, and the lack of West European or Mediterranean clusters.

Be that as it may, I find your certainty about these things rather amazing...You do realize this is all based on your own subjective interpretations, don't you? I mean, I play this game too, but I know it's a game, and I'm more than willing to admit it's subjective, and then, at least I'm Italian, so I think I have a pretty good "pattern" in my head for what Italians look like. Where does this dogmaticsm come from? Are you Sicilian? Born and bred on the island? Anywhere in Italy? Or are you basing your opinions on a few relatives from the Sicilian diaspora in the U.S. and on internet photos...I don't think that's a very good basis for making authoritative statements about the phenotypes of Sicilians from various parts of their island.

These are all Sicilians by the way...their "Sicilian-ness", at least, can be quantified because they are public figures, not people of whose actual ancestry nothing is known.

The following three people are from Palermo...
The great director and actor of stage and and screen...Luigi LoCascio...he doesn't look either "northern European" or North African to me...
http://www.klpteatro.it/images/stories/2009/luigi-lo-cascio290.jpg

Same for "Bandito Giuliano"...also from Palermo province...
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wNssAnIiRrE/UI-s1Zb2P3I/AAAAAAAANtg/5AeayTx-v0c/s1600/salvatore+giuliano.jpg
When I was a child, I was often told he would come and get me if I didn't behave...they used Barbarossa to scare me too...we have long cultural memories in Italy....lol

Then there's Francesco Scianna, the star of the great Tornatore movie "Baaria"...is that what you mean by North African looking? Whatever you call it...sign me up...
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.whynotmodels.com/mpictures/_francesco-scianna_742.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.whynotmodels.com/celebrity/francesco-scianna/profilo&h=281&w=180&sz=1&tbnid=sn3PTg4-P05NQM:&tbnh=186&tbnw=119&zoom=1&usg=__DDO_bI2Jny5e4A8GyaBP3G8sYfA=&docid=4L6uISYk9BKdqM&itg=1&sa=X&ei=5ThnUoTmK-bk4APGw4DYCg&ved=0CI0BEPwdMAo

From Taormina...pretty darn close to Messina...Guido Caprini...star of an Italian crime series I enjoy watching...is this what you mean by Greek looking?
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s320x320/185198_206762212706569_1358723_n.jpg


These two are both from Catania, east coast of Sicily, about midway between Messina and Siracusa...and neither one of them look particularly Greek to me...
http://cdn.blogosfere.it/tweetblog/images/Fiorello-Grillo.jpg
http://www.celluloidportraits.com/img/Registiattori/imgREGISTIeATTORI7/Giuseppe%20Fiorello%201_5123_N.jpg

Also from Catania, Salvatore Lazzaro...Greek or Italian looking, but basically he's just *good* looking...lol
http://vs2.streamcaster.net/trs/news_2096_lazzaro.JPG

From Sciacca,
http://www.hot-news.it/portal/images/stories/2009/12_Dicembre/daniele_interrante.jpg

And, from the center of the island...nothing comes to mind...lol...no insult intended to the people of that area...maybe it's too late...

Anyway, that was fun, but getting back to things that are at least a little quantifiable...Biasutti's map of pigmentation for Italy.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/BiasuttiMappa.png

I don't know of any more exhaustive study of the subject, and it correlates with my personal experience. .As you can see, the areas for Sicily are not neatly divided into south, center and west, although the western part of the island is a little "fairer". Messina, by the way, seems to be in a "darker" stretch, much like Calabria across the water.

Of course, these are variations on a theme...you're not going to find very many Swedish looking Italians:)

oreo_cookie
23-10-13, 06:46
You can find exceptions to every rule. But, based on my observations AND that of people I know who have been to all of Sicily, there are general trends on the island by phenotype.. and you can deny them all you like, and post specific examples of people who contradict one's preconceptions, but in the end I have my opinion and you have yours.

Nobody1
23-10-13, 12:55
I don't know of any more exhaustive study of the subject, and it correlates with my personal experience

This data comes from Dr. R. Livi - Antropometria Militare / ~ 299,000 recruits examined from all regions
http://imageshack.us/a/img515/511/distni.png


Sicilians are vastly Dolichocephalic Mediterranid;
some Sicilians from Anthropological studies -

Sicily - Mediterranid - [Carleton S. Coon - Races of Europe - plates]
http://imageshack.us/a/img853/5692/10858373.png

Sicily - Mediterranid - [Rassengeschichte der Menschheit - plates]
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/5714/sicily1.PNG

Sile
24-10-13, 08:17
This data comes from Dr. R. Livi - Antropometria Militare / ~ 299,000 recruits examined from all regions
http://imageshack.us/a/img515/511/distni.png


Sicilians are vastly Dolichocephalic Mediterranid;
some Sicilians from Anthropological studies -

Sicily - Mediterranid - [Carleton S. Coon - Races of Europe - plates]
http://imageshack.us/a/img853/5692/10858373.png

Sicily - Mediterranid - [Rassengeschichte der Menschheit - plates]
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/5714/sicily1.PNG

IIRC, livi did his test in 1865 and trentino, friuli and part of Veneto was not recorded. The veneto had only 2 of the 7 provinces, Verona and Rovigo which was tested

adamo
24-10-13, 13:12
Again, anthropology inconclusive and useless as usual in the face of haplogroups and modern genetic science, anthropology is the least precise form of human analyzation in my opinion.

adamo
24-10-13, 13:13
It is based on a system of vague classifications based on looks and physical traits that doesn't quite hold up to modern science.

Cambrius (The Red)
26-10-13, 00:31
Autosomal DNA provides the most complete picture of population groups. Sicilians are a distinct grouping on many levels.

Nobody1
26-10-13, 06:04
@ adamo

I think there might be some Genetic proof (underlining) to the Elymians being Trojan recordings;

Romano et al 2003 - did an autosomal-DNA test in which it turned out that Castellammare clusters closest with Turkey;
The significance is that Castellammare was the ancient harbor of Segesta [an Elymian settlement];
The Elymians (as we all know) are recorded to have been Trojans (i.e. Anatolians);

Thucydides - Book VI/XVIII
On the fall of Ilium, some of the Trojans escaped from the Achaeans, came in ships to Sicily, and settled next to the Sicanians under the general name of Elymi; their towns being called Eryx and Egesta.

All other 6 tested modern-day Sicilian towns cluster on complete diff. branches;

Romano et al 2003
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1469-1809.2003.00007.x/full#t7
http://imageshack.us/a/img266/6721/uvtq.png

adamo
26-10-13, 06:52
Excellent; don't forget that the Phoenicians colonized the western tip and the Greeks heavily colonized the east, north, south and with settlements such as Agrigento and Heraclea Minoa, even parts bordering on the south-west of the island. The Phoenicians had long arrived to western Sicily by the time a Trojan substratum arrived with Aeneas of Troy.

Nobody1
26-10-13, 07:35
Excellent; don't forget that the Phoenicians colonized the western tip and the Greeks heavily colonized the east, north, south and with settlements such as Agrigento and Heraclea Minoa, even parts bordering on the south-west of the island. The Phoenicians had long arrived to western Sicily by the time a Trojan substratum arrived with Aeneas of Troy.

I think the Trojans arrived before the Phoenicians;
Trojan war in ancient dating is the early 12th cen BC
The first Phoenician colony (not really sure) prob. was Motya ~8th cen BC;
Carthage itself was only founded in the late 9th cen BC; So the Trojans (Elymi) must have settled earlier;

DiGaetano et al 2012 (post #55) shows the Sicilians are autosomal-DNA very similar to South Italians;
Figures from DODECAD 'K12b' (not academic/not to be taken seriously)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE&hl=en_US#gid=0
S Italian & Sicilian [10 samples] - (5.5% Gedrosia)
29.9% Atl.-Med. / 11.8% N Europe / 36.5% Caucasus
12.5% SW Asia / 0.5% S Asia
2.5% NW Africa / 0.7% E African / 0.0% Sub-Saharan
Sicilian [15 samples] - (4.5% Gedrosia)
30.0% Atl.-Med. / 11.9% N Europe / 36.5% Caucasus
11.9% SW Asia / 0.1% S Asia
4.1% NW Africa / 0.7% E African / 0.2% Sub-Saharan

This makes the results from Romano et al 2003 - extra special;
It shows that certain specific areas with a certain specific historical backround are also Genetically diverse from the rest of the island as is the case with Castellammare the ancient Trojans and modern-day Turkey;

The Y-DNA results from DiGaetano et al 2009 are also very revealing;
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/full/ejhg2008120a.html
as are the mtDNA results from Romano et al 2003
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1469-1809.2003.00007.x/full#t7

adamo
26-10-13, 08:01
I agree totally

oreo_cookie
26-10-13, 09:34
I thought modern consensus was that the Elymians were related to either the Hittites or to Armenians. But either way that'd still be Anatolian.

Notice also Butera and Sciacca, also in western Sicily, drift toward the Turkey cluster. Troina, Caccamo etc. should have more Greek input.

adamo
26-10-13, 17:17
No th east had Greek colonization, central Sicily was inhabited by a Celtic group either from Iberia but I speculate a type of latins offshoot in the SICANI. Western Sicily was Trojan and Phoenician.

adamo
26-10-13, 17:39
Maybe there's a very ancient link that we have to connect but no, they were not firstly known as "Hittites" but Trojans whose stories truly began AFTER the glory of Troy. The story of the Elymians beings when Troy and the civilizations around it no longer matter as they have been sacked by various Greek tribes and the Elymians were basically these Trojan refugees seeking new lands (as Aeneas did) knowing that they can't permanently colonize/ settle anywhere directly near the Greeks. So they sailed past it aiming instead for some other region known as Hesperia, understanding that Iberia was too far and north-Africa isr't a suitable environmental decision, they settled for Italy. Aeneas first arrived at Cumae at Lazio in central Italy. Then he settled his people in western Sicily and some in Latium I believe.

adamo
26-10-13, 17:46
The first pelasgians of the Aegean and eastern Mediterranean seas to arrive to Italy I believe were the Chonii and Oenotri people who settled southern Campania to Calabria. They were sons of Lycaon. Then the Trojans settled western Sicily. The Iapygians (Messapus,Peucetis, Daunus also sons of Lycaon.) are said to have colonized the entirety of what is Apulia from Crete. (Note how the equally pelasgic Oenotri colonized ancient Calabria with a same substratum found among certain Apulians, southern campanians and Calabrians (the Etruscans were probably of this branch as well.) Then Achaean Greeks colonized virtually all of Calabria and the Ionians founded Reggio Calabria at the tip. The Etruscans arrived from Turkey as a minor substratum in Tuscany and Umbria in north-central Italy and possibly extending into the alps if they weren't killed off by advancing celts. Even groups from Veneto as the Adriatic Veneti could have been anatolians. Greeks settled even harbours on the Veneto and Marche coastal regions. I believe Neolithic haplogroup frequencies near Liguria are probably also indicative of minor Greek presence

adamo
26-10-13, 18:41
The Umbrians and Ligurians were of the same stock; Danube river celts with a possible origin in Denmark. They differed in that they were more of a Germanic stock compared to the Gallic predominance found across the north. The Ligurians may have picked up Etruscan/rhaetics elements and all this before the Gallic tribes even migrated. The Gauls though were hostile to the Etruscans but the Boii, Umbrians and Romans made pacts and alliances with the Etruscans, even though ultimately the Aeduians are those Gauls teat founded milan when arriving upon Insubres territory (among which there was a canton named aedui since very ancient times) the Romans ultimately were eternal kinsmen of the aedui and lingones I believe or solely aedui.

oreo_cookie
26-10-13, 18:44
central Sicily was inhabited by a Celtic group either from Iberia but I speculate a type of latins offshoot in the SICANI.

Autosomally people from central Sicily today just cluster closely to other Sicilians. It could be because Greeks eventually took over those lands as well and resettled people there.

adamo
26-10-13, 19:07
Right; R1b is still present in 25-30% of Sicilian males. It's just the island is split up among E3b (25%) and J2 (25-30%) as well with G being present at 11%. The percentage of R1b is drastically reduced in the south and even LESS of it is R1b u-152 showing that the gauls truly didn't invade all the way to the south as other people's were at one point occupying that territory.

adamo
26-10-13, 19:10
The south is one of the most maximal regions of Neolithic influence in Europe with R1b (25%), E3b (25%), J2 (25%) and G (25%) would be a fair haplogroup distribution in the south. The center is more R1b (40%) E3b (10%) J2 (20%) G (10%). The north is R1b (55%) E3b (10%) j2 (10%) G (10%)

oreo_cookie
26-10-13, 19:10
Right; R1b is still present in 25-30% of Sicilian males. It's just the island is split up among E3b (25%) and J2 (25-30%) as well with G being present at 11%. The percentage of R1b is drastically reduced in the south and even LESS of it is R1b u-152 showing that the gauls truly didn't invade all the way to the south as other people's were at one point occupying that territory.

Well you have to look at the subclades. The reason I do not buy for a second that there is substantial Iberian input, or has ever been, in Sicily is because the subclades of R1b never match up, and autosomal DNA does not correspond. On a PCA plot you will never see a Sicilian and an Iberian anywhere near one another.

R1b is about 25%, with 5% R1a (I am R1a1a actually). Not 30% R1b.

adamo
26-10-13, 19:11
About 60-75% of lineages in the south are of north-African (well, Balkans) and middle eastern lineages with only 25-30% of the lineages being west European. In the center about 50% of lineages are Neolithic maybe.....the north has 20-30%.

oreo_cookie
26-10-13, 19:33
About 60-75% of lineages in the south are of north-African (well, Balkans) and middle eastern lineages with only 25-30% of the lineages being west European. In the center about 50% of lineages are Neolithic maybe.....the north has 20-30%.

But all Sicilians are genetically, on an autosomal level, close to one another regardless of their haplogroup.

Interestingly also, Greeks have much more I2 and R1a (East European haplogroups) than Sicilians. Why didn't Sicilians get these from Greek ancestors?

adamo
26-10-13, 19:53
R1a is typically east-Central European whereas I2a has a Balkanic and Sardinian distribution primarily (of differing subclades). That is a very good question, although I can confirm what you say; R1a is excessively rare in Italians (1-5%) and I2a as well (3-4%) not to mention I1 (5%). It seems that either I2a or R1a hadn't yet descended as south as Greece at the time and so weren't genetically an option to reach Italy. I guess the first tribes of Greeks had heavy J2, E3b and some R1b-L23/ R-M269* subclades, but not much else. Maybe the Thracian tribes of the north weren't among those groups that colonized Italy. Maybe I2a and R1a weren't even in the region yet at this time. But the facts remain undeniable; few are those Italians that have a Slavic or Balkanic/east European type of genetic profile, even Scandinavian and Germanic lineages are extensively rare. Only Celtic R1b is frequently found, most of it being R-S28 and with Neolithic agriculturalist lineages J2,E3b, G minority; that's italian y-DNA.

adamo
26-10-13, 19:58
Italy is R1b (50%) J2 (25%) E3b (15%) G (15%) more or less in my opinion. Greece is like: R1b (16%) R1a (12%) I (15%) E3b (20%) J2 (20%) G (5%).

adamo
26-10-13, 20:00
Whereas Italy has 50% R1b and virtually no other European haplogroups, Greece has (15%) R1b (15%) R1a and (15%) I ; mixed with about 45% Neolithic lines (J2+E3b predominantly with G extreme minority).

adamo
26-10-13, 20:03
About half the men in the country are a mix of either R1a, R1b or I (predominantly I2a) 15% segments each meaning much less R1b. In Italy half the men are R1b (Celtic) and no other subclades of European haplogroups are really present at more than (5%).

adamo
26-10-13, 20:04
About 50% of the y-DNA in both nations is of Neolithic origin.

oreo_cookie
26-10-13, 20:19
Let's stop obsessing over haplogroups and focus on autosomal DNA.

Sile
26-10-13, 20:58
The first pelasgians of the Aegean and eastern Mediterranean seas to arrive to Italy I believe were the Chonii and Oenotri people who settled southern Campania to Calabria. They were sons of Lycaon. Then the Trojans settled western Sicily. The Iapygians (Messapus,Peucetis, Daunus also sons of Lycaon.) are said to have colonized the entirety of what is Apulia from Crete. (Note how the equally pelasgic Oenotri colonized ancient Calabria with a same substratum found among certain Apulians, southern campanians and Calabrians (the Etruscans were probably of this branch as well.) Then Achaean Greeks colonized virtually all of Calabria and the Ionians founded Reggio Calabria at the tip. The Etruscans arrived from Turkey as a minor substratum in Tuscany and Umbria in north-central Italy and possibly extending into the alps if they weren't killed off by advancing celts. Even groups from Veneto as the Adriatic Veneti could have been anatolians. Greeks settled even harbours on the Veneto and Marche coastal regions. I believe Neolithic haplogroup frequencies near Liguria are probably also indicative of minor Greek presence

It was proved this year in the paper from Giotto, that etruscans came from southern germany and not anatolia, they arrived around 800BC in Italy and so must have come from raetic stock as raetic are older than etruscans.

adamo
26-10-13, 22:06
I'm sorry but you've gone the wrong way Sile, confusing villanovan Danube region celts in Tuscany with proto-Etruscans descending from the alps. The Etruscans. Moved from Tuscany TOWARDS the alps, and not vice versa. You've failed Sile. Leave.

adamo
26-10-13, 22:07
The Villanovans were Halstatt types spilling across the alps towards north-central Italy; not the Etruscans.

adamo
26-10-13, 22:08
Some Greek influence in Liguria and Veneto to me is proved by now as 16% of Genoese males are E3b of which the totality is E-V13. Vicenza has 18% E3b all of it E-V13 as well.

adamo
26-10-13, 22:09
That's without mentioning the J2 lineages as well.

Angela
26-10-13, 22:35
Some Greek influence in Liguria and Veneto to me is proved by now as 16% of Genoese males are E3b of which the totality is E-V13. Vicenza has 18% E3b all of it E-V13 as well.

How have you determined that it came by way of the "Greeks" versus the Neolithic farmers...have you determined the subclade(s) of E-V113 present in both areas and their estimated dates? Matched the STR's against those in the Balkans, say, versus Greece?

Eldritch
26-10-13, 22:39
How have you determined that it came by way of the "Greeks" versus the Neolithic farmers...have you determined the subclade(s) of E-V113 present in both areas and their estimated dates? Matched the STR's against those in the Balkans, say, versus Greece?
I agree, i wouldnt equate E-V13 presence with Greeks.

Angela
26-10-13, 22:59
@ adamo

I think there might be some Genetic proof (underlining) to the Elymians being Trojan recordings;

Romano et al 2003 - did an autosomal-DNA test in which it turned out that Castellammare clusters closest with Turkey;
The significance is that Castellammare was the ancient harbor of Segesta [an Elymian settlement];
The Elymians (as we all know) are recorded to have been Trojans (i.e. Anatolians);

Thucydides - Book VI/XVIII
On the fall of Ilium, some of the Trojans escaped from the Achaeans, came in ships to Sicily, and settled next to the Sicanians under the general name of Elymi; their towns being called Eryx and Egesta.

All other 6 tested modern-day Sicilian towns cluster on complete diff. branches;

Romano et al 2003
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1469-1809.2003.00007.x/full#t7
http://imageshack.us/a/img266/6721/uvtq.png

All this shows, in my opinion, is that Sicilians, like southern Italians and other Italians, show signs of descent from Neolilthic peoples moving into Europe from the Northern Near East, including Anatolia.

There is no yDNA, mtDNA or aDNA for the "Trojans". There's even controversy about which settlement level was involved in the "Trojan" War, and some scholars postulate an Indo-European intrusive origin for them, or to put it another way, they would NOT have been, according to these scholars, very Anatolian at all as we understand that term today.

I don't understand how these kinds of correspondences can be drawn in the face such incredibly scant autosomal date, data that is much more likely to reflect much older and more significant migrations.

Angela
26-10-13, 23:12
I think the Trojans arrived before the Phoenicians;
Trojan war in ancient dating is the early 12th cen BC
The first Phoenician colony (not really sure) prob. was Motya ~8th cen BC;
Carthage itself was only founded in the late 9th cen BC; So the Trojans (Elymi) must have settled earlier;

DiGaetano et al 2012 (post #55) shows the Sicilians are autosomal-DNA very similar to South Italians;
Figures from DODECAD 'K12b' (not academic/not to be taken seriously)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE&hl=en_US#gid=0
S Italian & Sicilian [10 samples] - (5.5% Gedrosia)
29.9% Atl.-Med. / 11.8% N Europe / 36.5% Caucasus
12.5% SW Asia / 0.5% S Asia
2.5% NW Africa / 0.7% E African / 0.0% Sub-Saharan
Sicilian [15 samples] - (4.5% Gedrosia)
30.0% Atl.-Med. / 11.9% N Europe / 36.5% Caucasus
11.9% SW Asia / 0.1% S Asia
4.1% NW Africa / 0.7% E African / 0.2% Sub-Saharan

This makes the results from Romano et al 2003 - extra special;
It shows that certain specific areas with a certain specific historical backround are also Genetically diverse from the rest of the island as is the case with Castellammare the ancient Trojans and modern-day Turkey;

The Y-DNA results from DiGaetano et al 2009 are also very revealing;
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/full/ejhg2008120a.html
as are the mtDNA results from Romano et al 2003
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1469-1809.2003.00007.x/full#t7

I find your comments rather contradictory. DiGaetano shows that autosomally, Sicilians are very similar to Southern Italians, something which is also clear from the Dodecad analyses done by Dienekes. (It's a good thing we have that confirmation, as I think the DiGaetano results on their own shouldn't be taken very literally for the make-up of the different geographic areas of Italy, given that for a large portion of their data, they never asked if all four grandparents came from the same area. That is because a lot of that data was collected from hospitals; all that is certain is that the samples lived in certain cities. Since very few northerners migrate south, the southern data is marginally o.k. in my opinion, but the central Italian and northern Italian data is highly questionable.)

You then go on to focus on the mtDNA and yDNA results which do reveal differenes. Those may be informative for population genetics purposes and the tracking of migrations, but it has little to do with genetic relatedness. The MDLP run figures I posted above (which I think are highly suspect anyway, since they're only using one central Sicilian, one southern Sicilian, and no eastern Sicilians) show 1 to 2 percent differences in components...even the more homogenous northern Europeans show more variation than that at times.

Angela
26-10-13, 23:16
I thought modern consensus was that the Elymians were related to either the Hittites or to Armenians. But either way that'd still be Anatolian.

Notice also Butera and Sciacca, also in western Sicily, drift toward the Turkey cluster. Troina, Caccamo etc. should have more Greek input.

Could you provide me with an academic source for the proposition that the "Elymians" were related to the Hittites or the Armenians? Thank-you.

oreo_cookie
26-10-13, 23:22
How have you determined that it came by way of the "Greeks" versus the Neolithic farmers...have you determined the subclade(s) of E-V113 present in both areas and their estimated dates? Matched the STR's against those in the Balkans, say, versus Greece?

Well E1b subclades in Greece are also present in the rest of the Balkans..

Angela
26-10-13, 23:40
The south is one of the most maximal regions of Neolithic influence in Europe with R1b (25%), E3b (25%), J2 (25%) and G (25%) would be a fair haplogroup distribution in the south. The center is more R1b (40%) E3b (10%) J2 (20%) G (10%). The north is R1b (55%) E3b (10%) j2 (10%) G (10%)

If there were an autosomal cline in Sicily, something of which I'm not convinced, given the small data samples, and small differences in percentages on "admixture" analyses, I would speculate that it is a south/north cline, like everything else in Italy, and especially given the fact that the settlement of the "Moorish" or Berber tribes was heavier in the south, at least according to Chiarelli, in his book A History of Muslim Sicily.

In fact, if someone wanted to see if they could distinguish between the pre-Moorish Sicilians, and the post-Moorish Sicilians, they might want to look at the people in the triangular region formed by the mountainous areas of the Peloritani, and Nebrodi Mountains of the Northeast coast and Etna. This mountainous area was a hindrance to Muslim settlement, and the isolation of its people might mean that they retain some of these old signatures, unlike the people in the rest of Sicily. Again, according to Chairelli, during the Moorish period, the "native" Sicilians of that isolated area were allowed to continue to live "in either autonomous communities or under nominative Muslim authority. Greek influences remain in the dialects of the peoples of this region", Chiarelli, p. XXXV.

Sile
26-10-13, 23:53
I'm sorry but you've gone the wrong way Sile, confusing villanovan Danube region celts in Tuscany with proto-Etruscans descending from the alps. The Etruscans. Moved from Tuscany TOWARDS the alps, and not vice versa. You've failed Sile. Leave.

from the paper
Going back to the issue of the Etruscans’ origins, if the genetic resemblance between Turks and Tuscans reflects a common origin just before the onset of the Etruscan culture, as hypothesized by Herodotus and as considered in some recent studies [2] (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055519#pone.0 055519-Achilli1), [6] (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055519#pone.0 055519-Pellecchia1), [18] (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055519#pone.0 055519-Brisighelli1), we would expect that the two populations separated about 3,000 years ago. To discriminate between the potentially similar effects of remote common origin and recent gene flow, we ran four independent analyses based on the IM method [19] (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055519#pone.0 055519-Hey1), [20] (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055519#pone.0 055519-Nielsen1). In the model we tested, the two populations originate from a common ancestor, and may or may not exchange migrants after the split (Figure S7A (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055519#pone.0 055519.s007)). Assuming an average generation time of 25 years [16] (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055519#pone.0 055519-Fagundes1), [21] (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055519#pone.0 055519-Fenner1) and no migration after the split from the common ancestors, the most likely separation time between Tuscany and Western Anatolia falls around 7,600 years ago, with a 95% credible interval between 5,000 and 10,000 (Figure 5 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055519#pone-0055519-g005)).

where did the etruscans go between 7600 years and 2800 years ( time they arrived in Italy ) ...........maybe to the moon. The departure from anatolia was 7600 years ago.

The villanova proves nothing because the etruscans cremated their dead...........

Nobody1
26-10-13, 23:58
I find your comments rather contradictory. DiGaetano shows that autosomally, Sicilians are very similar to Southern Italians, something which is also clear from the Dodecad analyses done by Dienekes. (It's a good thing we have that confirmation, as I think the DiGaetano results on their own shouldn't be taken very literally for the make-up of the different geographic areas of Italy, given that for a large portion of their data, they never asked if all four grandparents came from the same area. That is because a lot of that data was collected from hospitals; all that is certain is that the samples lived in certain cities. Since very few northerners migrate south, the southern data is marginally o.k. in my opinion, but the central Italian and northern Italian data is highly questionable.)

You then go on to focus on the mtDNA and yDNA results which do reveal differenes. Those may be informative for population genetics purposes and the tracking of migrations, but it has little to do with genetic relatedness. The MDLP run figures I posted above (which I think are highly suspect anyway, since they're only using one central Sicilian, one southern Sicilian, and no eastern Sicilians) show 1 to 2 percent differences in components...even the more homogenous northern Europeans show more variation than that at times.

Where is the contradiction?
Y-DNA results, mtDNA results and autosomal-DNA results - all reveal a Genetic picture;
And the studies i posted contain these results of the atDNA/Y-DNA/mtDNA of the Sicilians;
Are the studies contradicted themselves of course not results for each field are the results for each field;
Maybe the results contradict your false conclusions and assumptions; but thats not my business;

Sile
27-10-13, 00:09
Could you provide me with an academic source for the proposition that the "Elymians" were related to the Hittites or the Armenians? Thank-you.

they are phoenicians mixed ( northern levant mix) with ancient spartans ( after they lost their leader menelaus).
Trojan theory ? - there was suppose to have stopped there after Aeneas and the trojans left carthage and queen Dido.

Elmyian lands was a major phoenician city/area and remained so even when it "converted" to Carthaginian.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2008/10/phoenician-y-chromosomes.html

Nobody1
27-10-13, 00:11
There is no yDNA, mtDNA or aDNA for the "Trojans". There's even controversy about which settlement level was involved in the "Trojan" War, and some scholars postulate an Indo-European intrusive origin for them, or to put it another way, they would NOT have been, according to these scholars, very Anatolian at all as we understand that term today.

aha;
I dont know about we; But I understand the term Anatolian today as in Turkish nation;
But the Turkish nation also has the Indo-European Anatolian branch as its heritage as also the Pelasgian;
The Sicilians of Castellammare share the same Anatolian (whether Pelasgian Trojans or Indo-European Trojans -thats not really important) as the modern day Turks from modern-day Turkey;
And isnt it a coincidence that Castellammare was the ancient port of Segesta a settlement of the Elymi who are recorded as being Trojans (whether Pelasgian Trojans or Indo-European Trojans -thats not really important);
No; I say it is not;

oreo_cookie
27-10-13, 00:15
In fact, if someone wanted to see if they could distinguish between the pre-Moorish Sicilians, and the post-Moorish Sicilians, they might want to look at the people in the triangular region formed by the mountainous areas of the Peloritani, and Nebrodi Mountains of the Northeast coast and Etna.

That is why I think the "Central Sicily" sample, if it was larger, would be more telling of pre-Moorish Sicilians, and I think the slight differences in the samples would become more pronounced. From what a Sicilian friend of mine says who is very well-versed on the history, and from 23andme results, the coastal area from Trapani along the south to Ragusa, has a stronger North African and Moorish influence (and Levantine), and Palermo and the north coast has more Norman.

Therefore, I think the inland areas would have less North African, less Northern European/Norman, and a higher West Asian/Caucasus prevalence related to the Neolithic.

Angela
27-10-13, 00:28
Where is the contradiction?
Y-DNA results, mtDNA results and autosomal-DNA results - all reveal a Genetic picture;
And the studies i posted contain these results of the atDNA/Y-DNA/mtDNA of the Sicilians;
Are the studies contradicted themselves of course not results for each field are the results for each field;
Maybe the results contradict your false conclusions and assumptions; but thats not my business;


MtDNA and yDNA account for only a very minor percentage of a person's total genome and represent only two lineages in a person's family tree. There's a nice hotspot of R1b in Africa; that doesn't mean there's much genetic similarity between them and the Irish. Autosomal DNA is a much, much, better indicator of genetic relatedness, in my opinon, and in terms of autosomal DNA, Sicilians and southern Italians, as you correctly pointed out, are very similar. Therefore, if you were saying that different parts of Sicily are very different from one another autosomally that would seem contradictory. But perhaps that is not what you intended to say...

Btw, blanket statements about someone else's "false conclusions" should be backed up by data and logically explained. Also, the way to reach the "truth" in population genetics as in any other academic field, requires that hypotheses be challenged...an emotional reaction to any criticism of one's statements is not conducive to any constructive search for answers.

Angela
27-10-13, 01:03
aha;
I dont know about we; But I understand the term Anatolian today as in Turkish nation;
But the Turkish nation also has the Indo-European Anatolian branch as its heritage as also the Pelasgian;
The Sicilians of Castellammare share the same Anatolian (whether Pelasgian Trojans or Indo-European Trojans -thats not really important) as the modern day Turks from modern-day Turkey;
And isnt it a coincidence that Castellammare was the ancient port of Segesta a settlement of the Elymi who are recorded as being Trojans (whether Pelasgian Trojans or Indo-European Trojans -thats not really important);
No; I say it is not;

Well, I was assuming we are both people interested in population genetics. So far as I am aware, in population genetics terms "Anatolia" and "Anatolians" clearly refer to pre-Turkic and Ottoman invasion Turkey...

Obviously, there were Indo-European incursions into the land mass known today as Turkey...there are attested early Indo-European languages there...and autosomally, western Turkey sort of "blends" into the Aegean islands...

However, at the time of the Trojan-Greek wars, the Trojans, if they were indeed an intrusive element ( a hypothesis to which I don't necessarily subscribe), would have been different autosomally from the prior Neolithic inhabitants.

Your point, as I understood it, was that there was a specifically distinct "Trojan" group which you could identify as impacting parts of Sicily more than others. I don't see the basis for that. It would seem to me you would have to know the genetics of the specific Troy level that was engaged in the Greek wars in order to arrive at a conclusion like that. Otherwise, you might only be tracking a Neolithic era "Anatolian" component, or, perhaps, a mixed Neolithic and Indo-European component that might have nothing to do with the specific "Trojans" at all.

You are, of course, entitled to believe in a theory for which we don't yet have genetic evidence, but to convince others of its "truth" usually requires more than an authoritative statement that "I say it is not"! At least, it's not enough to convince me. :)

Btw, my point in all these exchanges is not to say that your theories are necessarily incorrect; it is to question them because there is not yet genetic proof for them.

Nobody1
27-10-13, 01:11
As for your "Moorish Sicily";
It was not the Moors that conquered Sicily - it was the Ifriqiyans;
The Moors are Saracens (Saracen simply means Muslim) from the ancient Roman prov. of Mauritania;
The Ifriqiyans (Africans) are Saracens from the ancient Roman prov. of Africa;
There was even a caliphate that was called Ifriqiya that corresponded to the old Roman province of Africa and it was these Ifriqiyan Saracens that conquered Sicily;

Sicily also never belonged to any Moorish kingdoms (whether Almohad, Almoravid etc.) - Sicily belonged to the Caliphate of Ifriqiya and under the rule of al-Qayrawan;

All Medieval chronicles (whether Norman, Byzantine, Arab or the Pope) record the muslims of Sicily as Ifriqiyans, Saracens (muslims) or from the Byzantines as Hagarenes;
Sicily [Siqilliyya] was even ruled by its own Shia Muslim Dynasty - Kalbids (Battle of Stilo);

And of course - not every Saracen (simply means Muslim) was a foreigner;
Many of the Sicilian Saracens were local converts (something you should know if you have read Chiarelli)

Ibn-Hawqal - Sūrat al-Ard - First visit to Sicily in 973 AD
Most of them are Barqajānah (Berbers) and mawālī (local converts)......Most people are bastardised Muslims (musha'midhūn) and think it is acceptable to marry Christians on the basis that their male child follows the father by being a bastardised Muslim, while the female child becomes a Christian like her mother.

Something also the Normannic census reveals (many are Berbers many are local):

El-Said M. Badawi - Understanding Arabic (1996)
The following list of Nisbas reflects some of the Muslim population movements during the Norman period.....al-cajami Persia (474), al-andalusi Spain (252), al-asfaqusi Sfax (Tunisia) (164), al-atrabulusi Tripoli (Libya) (264); al-baji Beja (Tunisia) (160), al-barbari Berber (136), al-barqi Barqa (Libya) (592), al-bartiniqi Partinico (Sicily) (168), al-batrali Petralia Soprana (Sicily) (145), al-bijawi Beja (Tunisia) (475), al-buni Bone (Tunisia) (575), branqat Broccato (Sicily).....(271); al-damunnashi Demona (Sicily).....al-hijazi Hijaz (574), al-ifriqi North Africa (248), al-jarbi Djerba (Tunisia) (264).....al-karkinti Agrigento (Sicily) (252).....al-madani Palermo (Sicily) (154), al-mahdawi Mahdia (Tunisia) (250), al-maliti Malta (260), al-mazari Mazara (Sicily) (248), al-minawi Mineo (141).....al-nabuli Napoli (Italy) (543).....al-qurulluni Corleone (Sicily) (137), al-raghusi Ragusa (Sicily) (285), al-rimatti Rametta (Sicily) (137), rum(a) Byzantine (543), al-shami Syria (476).....al-shaqqi Sciacca (Sicily) (138), al-saraqusi Syracuse (Sicily) (583), al-siqilli (Sicily) Palermo (166).....

And the list goes on;
Always insightful to read Medieval chronicles and documents (and the Normans had a lot);

The correct term is therefor Ifriqyan Sicily or simply Islamic Sicily (multitude of diff. muslims);

PS: The Barqajana were Berbers from the ancient Cyrenaica/Barqa (Creta et Cyrenaica)

Ma'had al-Malakī lil-Dirāsāt al-Dīnīyah (Jordan) - (2004)
- Bulletin of the Royal Institute for Inter-Faith Studies: Vol.VI-VII
Ibn Hawqal reports that the inhabitants of Palermo included members of the Barqajana and mawali ('clients', that is, indigenous converts to Islam) claiming a connection with those who had conquered the island. According to al-Ya'qubi, the Barqajana were a Berber tribe which originally migrated west from the region of Barqa in Libya after the Arab advance into North Africa.

adamo
27-10-13, 01:21
Either way all E3b is E-V13 in samples from genoa and Vicenza and Lecce in Apulia and all E3b from Aquila, Abruzzo; this should be indicative of one general movement I would speculate of Greeks as they must have arrived via The Balkans to have E3b ANYwAYS. On Sardinia 12% of men are E3b in central region f which 10% is E-M123. Tuscan E3b and Basilicata 3b tend to have more diversity in the subclades and Sicily as well.

oreo_cookie
27-10-13, 01:23
What is clear is all Sicilians have a significant amount of Neolithic West Asian ancestry, wherever it came from; and Northern European elements are very, very small.

adamo
27-10-13, 01:29
Sicily has about 30% R1b and J2 and 20% E3b with 10% G I guess. These an abnormal high of Neolithic middle eastern lineages on the island and inflated E3b values for Europe as well. Most E3b in Italy is E-V13, but rarer subclades can be found at much smaller frequencies (E-V12,E-V22, etc.)

adamo
27-10-13, 01:32
Sicily is only second to Crete in terms of it's gold mine of agriculturalist lineages in Europe. I guess 25% of Sicilians are J2 whereas 40% of Cretans are. Crete doesn't even cluster much with Europe as a whole. To find the opposite of this one can visit western Ireland were more than 95% of men are R1b and were there are NO Neolithic lineages.

Angela
27-10-13, 01:45
That is why I think the "Central Sicily" sample, if it was larger, would be more telling of pre-Moorish Sicilians, and I think the slight differences in the samples would become more pronounced. From what a Sicilian friend of mine says who is very well-versed on the history, and from 23andme results, the coastal area from Trapani along the south to Ragusa, has a stronger North African and Moorish influence (and Levantine), and Palermo and the north coast has more Norman.

Therefore, I think the inland areas would have less North African, less Northern European/Norman, and a higher West Asian/Caucasus prevalence related to the Neolithic.


I don't know what larger, more comprehensive studies would show...what I do know is that one sample from central Sicily, and one from southern Sicily, and four from, probably, Palermo, and none from eastern Sicily, as a whole don't constitute sufficient evidence, in my mind, from which to draw very reliable conclusions.

The fact that Sicily and southern Italy are so close autosomally would seem to me to argue against significant autosomal differences between the various Sicilian regions. Believe me, before the autosomal data came out showing the close relationship between Sicilians and southern Italians in general, I would have bet good money on the fact that Sicilians would be quite different autosomally from Southern Italians. The history seemed to indicate that would be the case. But it seems they are not, and merely form part of the general cline. In fact, the major difference I can see is in the SSA component, and even then there isn't as much of it in Sicily as I would have predicted.

As I have thought about this, and after reading the Chiarelli book, which I highly recommend, I have wondered if it is because the "Moors" who invaded Sicily included a very large number of Tunisian Berbers, a population which at the time may not have included very much SSA, and whose other components were not that dissimilar from those of other southern Europeans. Ydna, in particular, which is so volatile, and which may soar to almost saturation levels from founder effect may not be a good barometer for the general genetic make-up of a population.

The area to which I was referring, and which was somewhat sheltered from Moorish settlement, is a small, circumscribed one in the very north eastern part of the island, and the only possible such refugia in Sicily from the effects of the Moorish invasion. Central Sicily had a very different history.

Palermo Province, and the area slightly to it's west does show higher levels of I1, and U-106, and perhaps those are indeed a signal of "Norman" ancestry. But we are not speaking, or at least I didn't think we were speaking, of yDNA, but instead of autosomal DNA. The "Normans" probably numbered a few hundred men at the very most. How much change could they have effected on the autosomal make-up of the people of Palermo province or the whole northwest...if I remember correctly, the population of the city of Palermo alone was larger by orders of magnitude than any city in Europe and probably than many provinces. Take the example of India...one might be able to trace the yDNA of an Indian sample to an R1a1a lineage from southern Siberia, but autosomally that made only a difference of a few percent in that man's descendant.

As for Central Sicily, were it to be shown that it is significantly different from other parts of Sicily, my speculation would be that the cause was the founding of the so-called "Lombard" towns (actually northern Italian towns) in the central areas of Sicily where a lot of the Muslim Sicilians had gathered after the fall of the Sicilian Caliphate. That was, after all, the purpose of those towns: to pacify both the Muslim Sicilian and the Greek Orthodox Sicilian populations, and to implant and nurture Latin Catholicism. The Wiki article on the Lombard towns is actually not bad at explaining the history of that settlement.

oreo_cookie
27-10-13, 01:49
Sicily is only second to Crete in terms of it's gold mine of agriculturalist lineages in Europe.

If you look at just eastern Sicily, it's similar in haplogroup distribution to Crete. Western Sicily having high R1b brings up the average.

oreo_cookie
27-10-13, 01:54
IBelieve me, before the autosomal data came out showing the close relationship between Sicilians and southern Italians in general, I would have bet good money on the fact that Sicilians would be quite different autosomally from Southern Italians.

I'd have expected eastern Sicilians to be like southern Italians and Greeks, and I'd have expected western Sicilians to cluster in the Levant due to all the Phoenician input. What is actually true is that southern Italians, Sicilians, and Greek islanders are all close, while mainland Greeks plot way north of them with other Balkan groups.

What would you have assumed?

Angela
27-10-13, 01:58
What is clear is all Sicilians have a significant amount of Neolithic West Asian ancestry, wherever it came from; and Northern European elements are very, very small.

What I wanted to post was "And so?" but it wouldn't let me, LOL. Let's take your statement at face value...is there something wrong with Neolithic West Asian ancestry? As a quarter Sicilian, I suggest you embrace it...a lot to be proud of...the Neolithic was one of the most significant advances in human history, not to mention that West Asia was also the source of metallurgy, and therefore of the Copper and Bronze and Iron Age technological advances...and a lot to be proud of in the accomplishments of any "MOORISH" Muslim Sicilian ancestors too...Sicily has never been so well managed, in my opinion, having read multiple histories of the island. Spanish rule bled the island dry in every imaginable way.

You really should read the Chiaroni book...it was a real eye opener for me.

oreo_cookie
27-10-13, 02:03
What I wanted to post was "And so?" but it wouldn't let me, LOL. Let's take your statement at face value...is there something wrong with Neolithic West Asian ancestry? As a quarter Sicilian, I suggest you embrace it...a lot to be proud of...the Neolithic was one of the most significant advances in human history, not to mention that West Asia was also the source of metallurgy, and therefore of the Copper and Bronze and Iron Age technological advances...and a lot to be proud of in the accomplishments of any "MOORISH" Muslim Sicilian ancestors too...Sicily has never been so well managed, in my opinion, having read multiple histories of the island. Spanish rule bled the island dry in every imaginable way.

You really should read the Chiaroni book...it was a real eye opener for me.

There is nothing wrong with it. As a matter of fact, I am very Med-centric, and would not want significant northern European ancestry.

And yes, I agree. I have always been sort of resentful toward the Spanish especially people who claim that we should embrace them as "brothers" because we all speak a Latin language and are Catholic.. uh, Catholicism was imposed on Sicilians, and we have lost all of our Greek language, Greek culture, etc.

My Sicilian grandfather was upset that my father married my mother (who is Portuguese) because he thought she was Spanish, and he resented Spain until he died because he said that the Spanish were hated by Sicilians as oppressive colonizers.

Nobody1
27-10-13, 02:08
Your point, as I understood it, was that there was a specifically distinct "Trojan" group which you could identify as impacting parts of Sicily more than others. I don't see the basis for that. It would seem to me you would have to know the genetics of the specific Troy level that was engaged in the Greek wars in order to arrive at a conclusion like that. Otherwise, you might only be tracking a Neolithic era "Anatolian" component, or, perhaps, a mixed Neolithic and Indo-European component that might have nothing to do with the specific "Trojans" at all.

No;
You misunderstood;
Romano et al 2003 revealed that the peoples of Castellammare (much more than other Sicilians) share common Genetic (autosomal-DNA) grounds with modern-day Turkey;
The question is what connects Castellammare (and only Castellammare) with modern-day Turkey;
My answer the historical recorded Anatolians (Trojans/Elymi);
And the Trojans must have been related to at least either the Indo-European Anatolian branch or the pre-Indo-European Anatolian Pelasgians; and in this respect not that important which one either way common Anatolian ground for Castellammare;

adamo
27-10-13, 03:11
There's nothing worse than being part of a very rare paternal haplogroup such as T though.

Angela
27-10-13, 03:29
from the paper
Going back to the issue of the Etruscans’ origins, if the genetic resemblance between Turks and Tuscans reflects a common origin just before the onset of the Etruscan culture, as hypothesized by Herodotus and as considered in some recent studies [2] (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055519#pone.0 055519-Achilli1), [6] (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055519#pone.0 055519-Pellecchia1), [18] (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055519#pone.0 055519-Brisighelli1), we would expect that the two populations separated about 3,000 years ago. To discriminate between the potentially similar effects of remote common origin and recent gene flow, we ran four independent analyses based on the IM method [19] (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055519#pone.0 055519-Hey1), [20] (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055519#pone.0 055519-Nielsen1). In the model we tested, the two populations originate from a common ancestor, and may or may not exchange migrants after the split (Figure S7A (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055519#pone.0 055519.s007)). Assuming an average generation time of 25 years [16] (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055519#pone.0 055519-Fagundes1), [21] (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055519#pone.0 055519-Fenner1) and no migration after the split from the common ancestors, the most likely separation time between Tuscany and Western Anatolia falls around 7,600 years ago, with a 95% credible interval between 5,000 and 10,000 (Figure 5 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055519#pone-0055519-g005)).

where did the etruscans go between 7600 years and 2800 years ( time they arrived in Italy ) ...........maybe to the moon. The departure from anatolia was 7600 years ago.

The villanova proves nothing because the etruscans cremated their dead...........

Sile, even the Italian scientists who did the original mtDNA analysis of the Etruscans and trumpeted that they were similar to some found in Anatolia, and proclaimed a link between the two areas in the Bronze Age have now stated that since those sequences are so old, there is no way of knowing if they arrived in Italy in the Neolithic or the late Bronze Age. And we have no yDNA, and no autosomal DNA, so I, for one, am just going to wait until somebody (if not the Italians given the current state of the economy there) can do at least a half way decent mtDNA analysis that gets down to the subclade levels necessary and isn't just based on some general HVRI values. In fact, if they can do a whole genome from the bone of a 22-24,000 thousand year old child from south central Siberia, they should be able to find a useable Etruscan bone from the hundreds stored in museums around the world.

Until then, I'm an agnostic, lol.

Angela
27-10-13, 03:41
As for your "Moorish Sicily";
It was not the Moors that conquered Sicily - it was the Ifriqiyans;
The Moors are Saracens (Saracen simply means Muslim) from the ancient Roman prov. of Mauritania;
The Ifriqiyans (Africans) are Saracens from the ancient Roman prov. of Africa;
There was even a caliphate that was called Ifriqiya that corresponded to the old Roman province of Africa and it was these Ifriqiyan Saracens that conquered Sicily;

Sicily also never belonged to any Moorish kingdoms (whether Almohad, Almoravid etc.) - Sicily belonged to the Caliphate of Ifriqiya and under the rule of al-Qayrawan;

All Medieval chronicles (whether Norman, Byzantine, Arab or the Pope) record the muslims of Sicily as Ifriqiyans, Saracens (muslims) or from the Byzantines as Hagarenes;
Sicily [Siqilliyya] was even ruled by its own Shia Muslim Dynasty - Kalbids (Battle of Stilo);

And of course - not every Saracen (simply means Muslim) was a foreigner;
Many of the Sicilian Saracens were local converts (something you should know if you have read Chiarelli)

Ibn-Hawqal - Sūrat al-Ard - First visit to Sicily in 973 AD
Most of them are Barqajānah (Berbers) and mawālī (local converts)......Most people are bastardised Muslims (musha'midhūn) and think it is acceptable to marry Christians on the basis that their male child follows the father by being a bastardised Muslim, while the female child becomes a Christian like her mother.

Something also the Normannic census reveals (many are Berbers many are local):

El-Said M. Badawi - Understanding Arabic (1996)
The following list of Nisbas reflects some of the Muslim population movements during the Norman period.....al-cajami Persia (474), al-andalusi Spain (252), al-asfaqusi Sfax (Tunisia) (164), al-atrabulusi Tripoli (Libya) (264); al-baji Beja (Tunisia) (160), al-barbari Berber (136), al-barqi Barqa (Libya) (592), al-bartiniqi Partinico (Sicily) (168), al-batrali Petralia Soprana (Sicily) (145), al-bijawi Beja (Tunisia) (475), al-buni Bone (Tunisia) (575), branqat Broccato (Sicily).....(271); al-damunnashi Demona (Sicily).....al-hijazi Hijaz (574), al-ifriqi North Africa (248), al-jarbi Djerba (Tunisia) (264).....al-karkinti Agrigento (Sicily) (252).....al-madani Palermo (Sicily) (154), al-mahdawi Mahdia (Tunisia) (250), al-maliti Malta (260), al-mazari Mazara (Sicily) (248), al-minawi Mineo (141).....al-nabuli Napoli (Italy) (543).....al-qurulluni Corleone (Sicily) (137), al-raghusi Ragusa (Sicily) (285), al-rimatti Rametta (Sicily) (137), rum(a) Byzantine (543), al-shami Syria (476).....al-shaqqi Sciacca (Sicily) (138), al-saraqusi Syracuse (Sicily) (583), al-siqilli (Sicily) Palermo (166).....

And the list goes on;
Always insightful to read Medieval chronicles and documents (and the Normans had a lot);

The correct term is therefor Ifriqyan Sicily or simply Islamic Sicily (multitude of diff. muslims);

PS: The Barqajana were Berbers from the ancient Cyrenaica/Barqa (Creta et Cyrenaica)

Ma'had al-Malakī lil-Dirāsāt al-Dīnīyah (Jordan) - (2004)
- Bulletin of the Royal Institute for Inter-Faith Studies: Vol.VI-VII
Ibn Hawqal reports that the inhabitants of Palermo included members of the Barqajana and mawali ('clients', that is, indigenous converts to Islam) claiming a connection with those who had conquered the island. According to al-Ya'qubi, the Barqajana were a Berber tribe which originally migrated west from the region of Barqa in Libya after the Arab advance into North Africa.

Forgive me, but I think you're being rather tiresome, and pedantic as well. Everyone who read my post was, I'm sure, well aware of what I meant, or they wouldn't, or at least shouldn't be posting on this kind of thread. I put "Moorish" in quotes most of the time for a reason. I'm well aware of the material you have posted. I just finished a 300 page book on the history of Muslim Sicily, one of many which I've read. The history of Italy has been a life long pursuit for me...I don't appreciate being lectured about it in this tone.

However, in the spirit of collegiality, I will make sure not to offend your desire for precision, and in the future, I will be careful to refer to this period as that of Muslim Sicily. All better now?

Alan
27-10-13, 03:45
Cretan Greeks and Iberians for most

Sile
27-10-13, 04:09
aha;
I dont know about we; But I understand the term Anatolian today as in Turkish nation;
But the Turkish nation also has the Indo-European Anatolian branch as its heritage as also the Pelasgian;
The Sicilians of Castellammare share the same Anatolian (whether Pelasgian Trojans or Indo-European Trojans -thats not really important) as the modern day Turks from modern-day Turkey;
And isnt it a coincidence that Castellammare was the ancient port of Segesta a settlement of the Elymi who are recorded as being Trojans (whether Pelasgian Trojans or Indo-European Trojans -thats not really important);
No; I say it is not;

Anatolia should be the term used for non-Turkish tribes/people in genetics ( ie before the ottomans)

pelasgian was referred by homer as people living between the thracians and trojans ( ie Dardanelles area)
phygians are in anatolia
correct me if i am wrong

Sile
27-10-13, 04:11
Sile, even the Italian scientists who did the original mtDNA analysis of the Etruscans and trumpeted that they were similar to some found in Anatolia, and proclaimed a link between the two areas in the Bronze Age have now stated that since those sequences are so old, there is no way of knowing if they arrived in Italy in the Neolithic or the late Bronze Age. And we have no yDNA, and no autosomal DNA, so I, for one, am just going to wait until somebody (if not the Italians given the current state of the economy there) can do at least a half way decent mtDNA analysis that gets down to the subclade levels necessary and isn't just based on some general HVRI values. In fact, if they can do a whole genome from the bone of a 22-24,000 thousand year old child from south central Siberia, they should be able to find a useable Etruscan bone from the hundreds stored in museums around the world.

Until then, I'm an agnostic, lol.

I quoted from the mtdna test paper and not the ydna test papers by ghiotto

besides...its proven the "etruscans" left anatolia 7600 years ago...where did they go? ..........maybe the albanians are correct, they are albanians. I believe they followed the danube and sat in southern germany - black forest area or swabia

Angela
27-10-13, 04:11
There is nothing wrong with it. As a matter of fact, I am very Med-centric, and would not want significant northern European ancestry.

And yes, I agree. I have always been sort of resentful toward the Spanish especially people who claim that we should embrace them as "brothers" because we all speak a Latin language and are Catholic.. uh, Catholicism was imposed on Sicilians, and we have lost all of our Greek language, Greek culture, etc.

My Sicilian grandfather was upset that my father married my mother (who is Portuguese) because he thought she was Spanish, and he resented Spain until he died because he said that the Spanish were hated by Sicilians as oppressive colonizers.

Ah...didn't mean to single out Spanish rule...just one of many foreign governments that didn't really care about the island and its inhabitants, in my opinion. And then, some Sicilians would say the current government is a "foreign" one as well, but that's an entirely different conversation...

Much of this was all long ago...I don't believe that we can, or more precisely, that we should, hold people responsible for the sins, if any, of their ancestors... or even less, their ancestors' governments; it's quite sufficient, I think, to hold them responsible for their own. :) And it's good to always remember that in our own lineages, we probably have members of both the "oppressors" and the "oppressed". And the "oppressed" sometimes go right from being oppressed to becoming "oppressors". And sometimes the biggest "oppressors" can be members of one's own ethnicity...look at the Chinese or the Cambodians or the Russians in modern times. And many others as well... It's sadly the way of the world.

oreo_cookie
27-10-13, 04:24
No;
You misunderstood;
Romano et al 2003 revealed that the peoples of Castellammare (much more than other Sicilians) share common Genetic (autosomal-DNA) grounds with modern-day Turkey;
The question is what connects Castellammare (and only Castellammare) with modern-day Turkey;
My answer the historical recorded Anatolians (Trojans/Elymi);
And the Trojans must have been related to at least either the Indo-European Anatolian branch or the pre-Indo-European Anatolian Pelasgians; and in this respect not that important which one either way common Anatolian ground for Castellammare;


If they did an island-wide study they might see something similar for other western Sicilian towns. The area I would like to see is Sciacca, Sambuca Zabut, Agrigento etc. and see if they have a higher North African and Levantine influence. I know some people in Palermo score high autosomally with Lebanese Christians and Druze on Dodecad Oracle.

adamo
27-10-13, 09:13
The shortest genetic distances between the Etruscan and modern populations are with Tuscans (FST=0.036; P=.0017) and Turks (FST=0.037; P=.0001); values of FST<0.050 were also observed for other populations of the Mediterranean shores and for the Cornish.

adamo
27-10-13, 09:14
The Etruscans came from Western Asia Minor. Today I personally estimate they represent about 1/10 to 2/10 male lineages in Tuscany today.

Nobody1
27-10-13, 15:28
Forgive me, but I think you're being rather tiresome, and pedantic as well. Everyone who read my post was, I'm sure, well aware of what I meant, or they wouldn't, or at least shouldn't be posting on this kind of thread. I put "Moorish" in quotes most of the time for a reason. I'm well aware of the material you have posted. I just finished a 300 page book on the history of Muslim Sicily, one of many which I've read. The history of Italy has been a life long pursuit for me...I don't appreciate being lectured about it in this tone.

However, in the spirit of collegiality, I will make sure not to offend your desire for precision, and in the future, I will be careful to refer to this period as that of Muslim Sicily. All better now?

Sorry that the post wasnt entertaining enough;
Its all Historically based and therefor precision (or as i call it the documented timeline as it was actually recorded) is the A & O;
You also do not designate Byzantine Sicily as "Magna Graecia Sicily" or use "Gothic Sardinia" when referring to the Vandals; Its not even much about precision (or being "too" precise) its just factual History;

adamo
27-10-13, 22:37
Muslim Sicily...what nonsense. There has been Greek, Ligurian or Iberian, Phoenician, Lombard, ottoman Byzantine and even Norman influence in Sicily I believe, but not Muslim. There may have been minor Arab revivalism and nationalism in western Sicily were the Phoenicians had anciently settled I suppose (hg T has a high here), but there was never Muslims on the island.

oreo_cookie
27-10-13, 23:16
Muslim Sicily...what nonsense. There has been Greek, Ligurian or Iberian, Phoenician, Lombard, ottoman Byzantine and even Norman influence in Sicily I believe, but not Muslim. There may have been minor Arab revivalism and nationalism in western Sicily were the Phoenicians had anciently settled I suppose (hg T has a high here), but there was never Muslims on the island.

Ligurian and Iberian are highly contested and cannot be proven.. there has yet to be any genetic proof of either.

adamo
28-10-13, 00:43
A Celtic group called the SICANI ended up on Sicily is all I'm trying to say Si-cane.

adamo
28-10-13, 00:45
As for hg J in Italy it peaks in northern Apulia near Lucera and Foggia just south of Campobasso were 45% of men belong to hg J. There's also a high of 25% hg G and 20% E frequencies in the region I believe.

Angela
28-10-13, 00:48
Not very good analogies, my friend. Byzantine Sicily is separated from Magna Graecia by centuries.

As for the Goths and the Vandals, they were both supposedly East Germanic tribes, and Jordanes maintained that the Vandals spoke a Gothic language. Who knows how similar they were autosomally...probably pretty similar, but I like to wait for actual scientific data.

I'm not one of those people who are comfortable making authoritative pronouncements based on the fragments of writings we have from people whose knowledge of geography was rudimentary at best, and utterly confused at worst, and didn't even know that genetics existed.

I won't even get into detail about the peculiar credulity, from my perspective, with which some people approach the various origin myths that were created to increase the worth and dignity of some parvenu power. I mean, are we seriously going to believe Caesar's claim that his family descended from Venus? That's about as ridiculous, in my opinion, as the claim that some hut dwelling shepherds living above the Tiber were direct descendants of the lords of Troy.

Of course, I'm the tolerant sort...what people choose to believe is up to them...

And now, I think productive discussion on this particular aspect of the issue is about at an end.

adamo
28-10-13, 00:53
E3b in the north is found at 16-18% maximums in Liguria and Veneto. Parts of Emilia-Romagna,Lombardy can have as high as 10%. Central Italy has about 10% E3b with 15% highs here and there. The south has 15-25% including Sicily. J2 although can be found at even higher frequencies in the center. North-central Italy scored 27% J2 and central Marche has 35% J2. Parts of Abruzzo have 20-25% as well whereas Tuscany and Umbria have more like 10-20%. Lazio has a solid 20% J2 and Campania has exact same frequencies with a 30% high in the southern Salerno regions. Basilicata seems to lack as much J2 but Calabria, probably molise and Apulia are J2 powerhouses like central Marche and Sicily.

adamo
28-10-13, 01:00
We all know that Angela. Now, J2's heavier presence in Calabria could be explained by Greeks such as the Achaeans or Ionians and pre-historic Pelasgian tribes such as the Oenotrii and Chonii. Sicily has extensive Phoenician and Greek colonizing blood explaining J2's presence there, with several sites on the island even dedicated to Minos if Crete or Aeneas of Troy. Apulia had on it the unique Iapygian civilization of Crete and also some minor Greek presence. (The reason J2a is so high near Foggia and in Apulia is predominantly because of Pelasgian Iapygians of Crete who had an underlying Anatolian genetic structure. Basilicata was once known as Lucania so I believe the Oenotri sons of Lycaon are responsible for that. Coastal Campania was settled by Greeks and some Etruscans even descended to and founded Capua in Caserta. The Etruscans lived in the Tuscany/Umbria area and I suspect Greece to be behind the J2 in Abruzzo and Marche regions. Coastal Liguria and Veneto had some form of Greek or Pelasgian presence.

adamo
28-10-13, 01:02
"Byzantine Sicily is separated from Magna Graecia by centuries. "......who the ____ doesn't know that one?

adamo
28-10-13, 01:04
Anyways and the Lingones, senones, aedui, ambarri, cenomani, carnutes, bituriges aulerci were Gallic tribes, the boii were from Bohemia, I believe that the Ligurians and Umbrians were the Ambrones of Germany or Denmark near the Danube river basin; direct Halstatt pre-la tene types.

Angela
28-10-13, 01:05
"Byzantine Sicily is separated from Magna Graecia by centuries. "......who the ____ doesn't know that one?

I don't know...maybe someone who doesn't know there was a Muslim Sicily? Or perhaps your irony eluded me...

adamo
28-10-13, 01:06
Maybe they weren't even Halstatt types, I just feel they moved from Denmark south to Germany then to southwestern France and to north-itLy or something.

adamo
28-10-13, 01:08
Yes but that was a very small period of Sicilian history, it's like saying Saracens raiding Sicilian coasts are the reason why Sicily's culture is what it is today: nonsense.

adamo
28-10-13, 01:09
The Moors built mosques all across Andalusia, is Spain iraqistan in any way? No, not even genetically.

oreo_cookie
28-10-13, 01:09
A Celtic group called the SICANI ended up on Sicily is all I'm trying to say Si-cane.

That may be true. I have yet to see any Sicilian cluster on a PCA plot with any modern "Celtic" group, though, which is what I have been saying all along. But then again, if people moved inland from the coasts during the Arab era, then the Sicani genes would have been diluted.

Also Sicani areas of the island should then be lighter pigmented and they're not.

adamo
28-10-13, 01:12
I'm sorry but something HAS to explain the 30% R1b on Sicily. I mean it's not like I1 across Italy here 3-5%; it's 30% of the islands males! it would be nice to have at in-depth R1b clade analysis.

Nobody1
28-10-13, 01:21
This is not about analogies or the Goths and we do not have to make this more complicated;
Its quite simple; If one wants to refer to a specific Historical era or a specific Historical event than just simply be specific about it; Its not that much of an effort;


I'm not one of those people who are comfortable making authoritative pronouncements based on the fragments of writings we have from people whose knowledge of geography was rudimentary at best, and utterly confused at worst, and didn't even know that genetics existed.

Sharp observation;
But modern-day scientists know a thing or two about Genetics; And if one of their studies actually reveals something that corresponds to something what one of those Crazy, Useless and app. oh so Retarded Ancient Scholar reported; Than thats something;

Nobody1
28-10-13, 01:32
I'm sorry but something HAS to explain the 30% R1b on Sicily. I mean it's not like I1 across Italy here 3-5%; it's 30% of the islands males! it would be nice to have at in-depth R1b clade analysis.

Thats exactly my point as well;
DiGaetano et al 2009 has 30.3% R1b-M269 for West Sicily (122 samples)

No one is capable of knowing to what sub-clades of R1b-M269 all belong to this 30.3% because there was no further testing in that study;

Boattini et al 2013 has 141 samples from Sicily and does a further Analysis but most of these samples are from East Sicily or Agrigento - which was Greek (Dorian) colony in ancient times; So despite further Analysis and insight not much use concerning the 30.3% R1b-M269 in West Sicily and the Sicani;

Until there is more knowledge about the 30.3% R1b-M269 in the West Sicily there is no ruling out that the Sicani were not Iberians (as Historically recorded) on the contrary, the fact that West Sicily has a much higher frequency of R1b-M269 in compared to East Sicily suggests that in West Sicily something diff. than in East Sicily occurred and that could very well have been corresponding to the Iberian (as Historically recorded) Sicani;

adamo
28-10-13, 01:45
I would say about half the samples everywhere in Italy end up being R-S28. So if 30% of Sicilians are R1b I would estimate 10-15% will be R-S28. There will be a small high of R-M269* and R-L23 lineages where Greeks settled.

Angela
28-10-13, 01:48
The following excerpts from the Chiarelli book may prove helpful in understanding why there isn's as much internal structure in Sicily as one might expect:

"The population that lived outside direct Muslim authority was semi-independent, living under some Byzantine protection probably until 290/902, when the whole island seems to have placed under Palermo's control...This territory was basically restricted to the region of Val Demone/San Marco, especially in the mountainous areas of Etna and the Peloritani chain of mountains. These independent area remained small and few in number, but by the Kalbid period they appear to be nonesixtent, since the whole island came under Palermo's control."

In the middle of the 4th/10th century, the Fatimids took control of the island. Whereas the Aghlabids kept many concquereed cities paying tribute, the Fatimids appear to have placed all newly conquered Byzantine territory under their direct control...Along with their policy of subjugating the whole island, the Fatimids pursued a policy of expanding Muslim colonization by relocating people from one region to another. Thus all the newly subjugated towns and cities in the predominant Christian areas of the northeast, especially the Val Demone/San Marco, had a Muslim population settled with them. The indigenous inhabitants would sometimes flee, leaving the jund free to acquire the abandoned lands, such as in the case of Taormina in 351/962, when many of the populace were reduced to slavery...The government then relocated Muslims from the other parts of the island and settled them in Taormina. (pages 162-163)

"In the interior of the island there were many settlements made up of what the Sicilian scholar Carmelo Trasselli cals eagle nest communities. These were composed of castles and groups of homes barely accessible by only one road or by donkey path between two rocky mountains separated by steep valleys. These hilltop communities were reoccupied during the Arab period after their their apparent abandonment during late Roman times. It is possible that these sites were settled by Berbers from the regions of North Africa where such hilltop settlements were common and preferred. It appears that the interior was composed of less numerous communities than today... (page 161)

adamo
28-10-13, 01:48
Northwestern italy predictably has a peak in P-312* lineages with 10% in the Piemont region, 20% in Liguria and 10% near lake Como. Italy doesn't have any L-23 either.

Nobody1
28-10-13, 01:55
I would say about half the samples everywhere in Italy end up being R-S28. So if 30% of Sicilians are R1b I would estimate 10-15% will be R-S28. There will be a small high of R-M269* and R-L23 lineages where Greeks settled.

Acc. to Busby et al 2011 revealed that R1b-U152 is in fact higher in the East of Sicily and not in the West;
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full
http://imageshack.us/a/img825/4572/busby2011.png

West Sicily is in 6-11% R1b-U152 and 5-9% is in R1b-U106 so acc. to Busby et al 2011 at least ~11% is U106/U152 what the rest is (of 30.3% R1b-M269) is still not known; But there is more M269 in the West than in the East;

adamo
28-10-13, 02:04
Cuneo, Piemont has 54% R1b if which 37% is R-S28. 10% is P312* and one was L-21. Genoa, Liguria has 52% R1b of which 22% is R-S28, 20% is P312* and 6% were R-M269*. 4% were L-21. In Como Lombardy 54% R1b; 22% R-S28, 10% P312*, 10% R-M269, 7-8% R-S21 and like 3-4% L21. Brescia has 64% R1b and 51% R-S28. Another 5% are P-312* others found at 1-3%. 22% of the 30% R1b in Vicenza is R-S28 as well.

adamo
28-10-13, 02:07
Treviso has 53% R1b 33% R-S28 , 10% R-M269*, 5-8% u-106; like 3-4% P312. Bologna has 59% R1b and 31% U-152. 10% are L-21 here , 7% M269, 7% P312 and 3-4% u-106.

adamo
28-10-13, 02:09
Sorry that was a wrong comment

adamo
28-10-13, 02:10
Only in Macerata is a high like this of P312* re-experienced, and nowhere else in Tuscany (10% in Macerata).

adamo
28-10-13, 02:12
R-S28 ends up making up half the R1b virtually everywhere across mainland Italy and on ghee islands as well.

Nobody1
28-10-13, 03:25
The following excerpts from the Chiarelli book may prove helpful in understanding why there isn's as much internal structure in Sicily as one might expect:

"The population that lived outside direct Muslim authority was semi-independent, living under some Byzantine protection probably until 290/902, when the whole island seems to have placed under Palermo's control...This territory was basically restricted to the region of Val Demone/San Marco, especially in the mountainous areas of Etna and the Peloritani chain of mountains. These independent area remained small and few in number, but by the Kalbid period they appear to be nonesixtent, since the whole island came under Palermo's control."

In the middle of the 4th/10th century, the Fatimids took control of the island. Whereas the Aghlabids kept many concquereed cities paying tribute, the Fatimids appear to have placed all newly conquered Byzantine territory under their direct control...Along with their policy of subjugating the whole island, the Fatimids pursued a policy of expanding Muslim colonization by relocating people from one region to another. Thus all the newly subjugated towns and cities in the predominant Christian areas of the northeast, especially the Val Demone/San Marco, had a Muslim population settled with them. The indigenous inhabitants would sometimes flee, leaving the jund free to acquire the abandoned lands, such as in the case of Taormina in 351/962, when many of the populace were reduced to slavery...The government then relocated Muslims from the other parts of the island and settled them in Taormina. (pages 162-163)

"In the interior of the island there were many settlements made up of what the Sicilian scholar Carmelo Trasselli cals eagle nest communities. These were composed of castles and groups of homes barely accessible by only one road or by donkey path between two rocky mountains separated by steep valleys. These hilltop communities were reoccupied during the Arab period after their their apparent abandonment during late Roman times. It is possible that these sites were settled by Berbers from the regions of North Africa where such hilltop settlements were common and preferred. It appears that the interior was composed of less numerous communities than today... (page 161)

Excellent post from an excellent book;
To this i add a passage from Ibn-Hawqal;

Ibn-Hawqal - Ṣūrat al-Arḍ (973AD)
Their land is one of the boundaries with the Christians with a part of it that faces the enemy and where jihād is constantly waged against them and there has been a call to arms since the conquest of Sicily

The 'conquest of Sicily' is dated as complete in 902AD (Fall of Taormina) yet the remaining Christian areas were under attack 'jihād is constantly waged against them' well into 973AD;
And since Islamic Sicily was followed by Normannic Sicily;
I add also this;

Dr. Alex Metcalfe - Lancaster University
http://www.academia.edu/206503/The_Muslims_of_Sicily_under_Christian_Rule

and a passage from Hugo Falcundus
Lombard settlers were encouraged by Roger and Tancred to take Muslim land and towns in the East during the revolt of 1160-61

Hugo Falcandus - LIBER DE REGNO SICILIE XXI (1154-1169)
The Lombards made unprovoked attacks on nearby places, and massacred both those who lived alongside the Christians in various towns as well as those who owned their own estates, forming distinct communities. They made no distinction of sex or age. The number of those of that community who died is not easy to reckon, and the few who experienced a better fate, fled to less dangerous Muslim towns in the southern part of Sicily.

and a passage of Ibn-Jubayr

Ibn-Jubayr - Rihla (1184)
the Christian women’s dress in this city (Palermo) is the dress of Muslims; they are eloquent speakers of Arabic (faṣīḥāt al-alsan) and cover themselves with veils. They go out at this aforesaid festival (Christmas) clothed in golden silk, covered in shining wraps, colourful veils and with light gilded sandals. They appear at their churches bearing all the finery of Muslim women in their attire, henna and perfume.

Angela
28-10-13, 03:59
The Romano et al study mentioned up thread dates from 2003 and used 9 autosomal STR's. For mtDNA analysis it was unable to type below the level of "H", "J" etc., doubtless because it was using Torroni et al. (1996,1998) and references therein. There is no yDNA analysis. Oh, and the most recent computer program used is thirteen years old, an aeon in software and population genetics terms.

With that said, the following is found in the study:
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"Fig. 3a (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1469-1809.2003.00007.x/full#f3) shows two clear clusters: Castellammare, Sciacca and Butera which group together 86% of the times and the remaining samples whose structure is, however, less defined. Ragusa and Piazza Armerina are associated 70% of the times, but the evolutionary model suggested by the tree is probably not valid for Troina and Caccamo, which join the tree with bootstrap values of less than 50%. The addition of the mtDNA haplogroup frequencies does not help to resolve the matter: Troina joins Castellammare and Sciacca 62% of times, but Caccamo joins Troina, Castellammare and Sciacca 48% of times, and other combinations of samples in lower percentages.

The maximum likelihood tree obtained by adding three samples from North-Africa (Algeria and Egypt) and the Middle East (Turkey) provides further information: 54% of times Castellammare, Butera and Sciacca are associated with the Middle East sample, while the remaining samples (Troina, Caccamo, Piazza Armerina and Ragusa) are associated with the two samples from North-Africa."

It should be kept in mind that based on only 9 autosomal markers, DNA-Tribes told some northern Europeans that they were North Africans. Although, to be fair, even on a very limited number of markers they placed me precisely in northwestern Tuscany, which represents half of my ancestry. As a recent paper has indicated, however, parts of central and northern Italy do indeed show some significant sub-structure.

The paper does caution, however:
"Establishing a one-to-one correspondence between the genetic (gene and genotypic) heterogeneity of Sicily observed today and a presumed geneticcomposition of its pre-Roman settlers is a very dangerous exercise until one has typed ancient DNA from pre-Roman Sicilian fossils in the relevant archaeological areas...The peopling of Sicily, as very briefly described above, should have caused genetic differentiation on the west-east axis of the island: old classical genetic markers , surnames (Guglielmino et al. 1991) Guglielmino et al.1991, and dialect isoglosses (Ruffino 1997) agree by showing this differentiation. The genetic analysis by Rickards et al. (1998) failed to find this geographical pattern, but our results in Fig. 2 (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1469-1809.2003.00007.x/full#f2) show that at least the fraction of genetic variability summarized by the most important principal component of our data (which is 26%) is correlated with longitude much more than with latitude.

They conclude with the following statement: "A more reliable association of these diachronic genetic strata to different historical populations (e.g. Sicani, Elymi, Siculi), if possible, must be postponed to the analysis of more samples and hopefully more informative uniparental DNA markers such as the recently available DHPLC-SNP polymorphisms of the Y chromosome."

Taken as a whole, and most especially because of the dated methods used, I personally don't find this old study dispositive.

That's not to say, of course, that there isn't any population structure within Sicily, especially along an east/west axis. It's just that this study doesn't prove it, in my opinion. Hopefully, in the future, something like it will be attempted again using current programs.

oreo_cookie
28-10-13, 04:07
I'm sorry but something HAS to explain the 30% R1b on Sicily. I mean it's not like I1 across Italy here 3-5%; it's 30% of the islands males! it would be nice to have at in-depth R1b clade analysis.

There is no Iberian AUTOSOMAL impact on the Sicilian genome. Armenians are 30% R1b too, and look where they cluster!

Genetically, Iberians and Sicilians never appear next to one another on a PCA plot because the VAST majority of their genes are different.

adamo
28-10-13, 04:48
I never claimed that they did. I never claimed it was Iberian of origin. Armenians have 30% R1b but it's all R-L23; keep Armenians out of this discussion.

adamo
28-10-13, 04:49
You forced that onto me XD I said they may have been Iberians or Ligurians; but they were certainly a Celtic group.

adamo
28-10-13, 04:50
And they were certainly SICANI you sick-cane.

oreo_cookie
28-10-13, 05:20
Until their autosomal impact can be quantified, then it's pretty meaningless to bring it up.

Genetically, we know Sicilians are close to southern Italians, Greeks, and Jews. Iberians are close to northern Italians and French. So yes, the Sicanians may have been Iberian or Celtic, but since no Sicilians cluster that way on a PCA plot, then we can conclude their autosomal impact was either negligible, or if it was significant then they were not truly Celtic or Iberian after all.

How is that hard to understand? If Sicilians were coming up autosomally similar to Iberians and Welsh, Irish, Bretons (Celtic groups) I'd certainly admit it, but they don't. Haplogroups tell almost nothing about autosomal DNA.

R1b-M269 is the subclade found in Iberia, Ireland, France, Britain, Belgium etc. Sicilians do not cluster next to any of these groups on an autosomal level. Point blank.

adamo
28-10-13, 17:46
Sicilians, southern Italians and Greeks May cluster closer together in certain respects, but I don't see a direct link between any Italians and Jews; other than the team Juventus and the ancient site of Juventum; which both probably have a Latin origin from "young" (French jeune, italian giovene I believe Spanish is Jovenes). Italians and Jews, southern ones in particular both have 20-30% J2 frequencies usually. But J2 is also heaviest in turkey, Lebanon, Armenia,Georgia,Azerbaijan,Iran,Iraq,Palestine; regions of the Middle East of which some identify as arabics and are heavily anti-Jewish, J2 is not a Jewish genetic marker, it's simply shared between all ancient mesopotamians and certain modern coastal Mediterranean people and all those people I mentioned above got some of it including Arabs, Turks, armenoid-Caucasians and even Jews.

adamo
28-10-13, 17:50
I see no precise, direct link between Italians and Jews other than maybe a slightly more similar genetic pattern than most European nations have. According to the G2a, E-V13 and J2a lineages; I would look towards Crete, turkey and the Balkans (Greece,Albania) for the origin of Italy's Neolithic lineages. Even the Caucasus (Georgia) in G2a's case. When looking for the origin of Italy's west-European blood, according to the high R1b frequency and it's subclade distribution I would look towards the northwest; Switzerland and France.

oreo_cookie
28-10-13, 18:03
I see no precise, direct link between Italians and Jews other than maybe a slightly more similar genetic pattern than most European nations have. According to the G2a, E-V13 and J2a lineages; I would look towards Crete, turkey and the Balkans (Greece,Albania) for the origin of Italy's Neolithic lineages. Even the Caucasus (Georgia) in G2a's case. When looking for the origin of Italy's west-European blood, according to the high R1b frequency and it's subclade distribution I would look towards the northwest; Switzerland and France.

I agree but it is important to note that if most of the Neolithic lineages came from Greece (which I do not agree with) to southern Italy, why do southern Italians have so much less Northern European autosomal DNA than mainland Greeks?

I assume most of the Neolithic in Sicily came right from Anatolia or the Levant. It would make sense since Sicilian y-dna is more shared with Greek islands and Cyprus, than with mainland Greece, if you look at the subclades. At least that is what others have said who know more about it than me on another board.

Autosomally, Greek islanders are closer to southern Italians, than to mainland Greeks for that reason; mainland Greece has much more impact from the north (Slavic, Balkan etc).

adamo
28-10-13, 18:16
I agree with that seems southern Italians and Cretans cluster more with anatolians than mainland Greeks.

adamo
28-10-13, 18:18
Why do northern Italians have so much MORE Northern European component than Greeks; do not underestimate Greek presence of magna Grecia.

adamo
28-10-13, 18:27
Greeks brought much E-V13 and some J2 as well (all the small amount of J2b). Other J2 is attributed to Etruscans or ancient Oenotrians who came from Greece but were anatolians anyways or the iapygians of Crete bringing J-M410; it depends on the region and it's historical conquerors. J2 tends to fit a more Greek profile on Calabria but a more Anatolia profile in Apulia.

adamo
28-10-13, 18:31
So we know, yes, at least a small amount if it came from turkey, some came from Crete and thus from turkey before that, some came with the Greeks etc. j2 Italy has higher than normal J-M67, J-M12 and J-M92 values including a high only surpassed on Crete of J2a-M410 lineages.

adamo
28-10-13, 18:35
Indicating a minor Caucasus substratum (Georgia-Armenian) and minor grecoid-Balkanic influence in north-central Italy as 10% both M67 and M102. J2a like on Crete and turkey can be found in northern Apulia in many Foggia samples. J-M92 oddly peaks in southern italians and western Turks skipping Greece indicating a turkey to southern Italy movement as well. All that is J2a, J-M67 and J-M92 certainly arrived via turkey although some M67 may have arrived as a very small Greek substratum but J2b was certainly brought over from the Balkans by Greeks.

oreo_cookie
28-10-13, 19:15
I agree with that seems southern Italians and Cretans cluster more with anatolians than mainland Greeks.

And you then have to wonder why that is. Either one of two things must be true:

1) Mainland Greeks were always more "Northern" clustering and less Neolithic than southern Italians and Cretans, which means that mainland Greek impact on both places was small to begin with,

or

2) Mainland Greeks have this admixture now from Slavic elements, which means they are not representative of the ancient Greeks.

My issue is assuming ALL Of the West Asian influence in Italy is Greek, when continental Greeks have less of said influence on an autosomal level than southern Italians do. It would be illogical to assume it all came from Greeks. Why don't southern Italians have the same level of Eastern European admixture as Greece? I think we know the answer.

adamo
29-10-13, 04:22
I agree with 2) and 1) but even some Greeks had J2 and they DID heavily colonize Calabria and coastal Marche and Veneto and Abruzzo as well were J2 seems frequent; these are all areas that had Greek colonization as well. As for R1a I suggest it probably was not yet heavily present in Greeks....why is there little I2a in Italy? Maybe the thracians and northern Greeks where I2a is most frequent didn't decide to colonize Italy; or maybe R1a and I2a in general are at such a rarity in Greece as well that barely any was transmitted to Italy. Who colonized Italy in terms of classical era Greeks? Achaeans, Ionians, Dorians; it would be important to analyze what these particular tribes genetic composition would have been

adamo
29-10-13, 04:25
For example, the prior Oenotrians I believe brought much Anatolia J2a to the general southern region of Italy; they may have brought some E3b as well; who knows, maybe even E-V13. The succeeding Achaean and minor Ionian Greeks settlements would have certainly brought over more/most E-V13 and some even more types of Balkanic and middle eastern J2 but all the "specific ness" of the subclades starts to take place at minimal levels. It seems they brought no R1a or I2a; because it was apparently not among the colonizers.

oreo_cookie
20-11-13, 21:47
It seems they brought no R1a or I2a; because it was apparently not among the colonizers.

I am R1a on my Sicilian side. I think it is likely that it came over in small amounts (Sicily has the most R1a in all of Italy), but I think it shows that the parts of Greece that colonized there were likely E1b1b heavy, since within Sicily they often use E1b1b (especially specific subclades) to denote our Greek ancestry. It is very high in the east of the island, and in Enna.

MtDNA
25-10-14, 15:46
They are typical of Meditaranian people, but with less Indo-Europeean influence than the North Italians and Greeks.

Angela
25-10-14, 15:58
They are typical of Meditaranian people, but with less Indo-Europeean influence than the North Italians and Greeks.

I have been told that this is dogma on anthrofora sites like The Apricity, but it is total bunk.

Ed.It is first of all based on some bizarre notion that island Greeks, and Pontic Greeks, and rather recently expelled Greeks from the Aegean shores of Asia Minor, are not as "Greek" as mainland ones. Just who made that decision? Next time I'm invited to an event at the Greek Orthodox Church and Community Center, I'll be sure to inform them that half of them are not Greek.

In addition, it is, to my knowledge, totally based on 23andme components that are themselves highly problematic for people in the Balkans including the Greeks. I would suggest taking a look at the reference populations used by 23andme. The reference population for the Balkans includes the Maltese, so any "southern" or "Mediterranean" or "West Asian" percentages for that matter would be in addition to what is already present in the reference sample. The results on 23andme are fun, but not for the kind of analysis which we do on this site.

I would suggest taking a look at the Dodecad runs instead, which do a much better job of teasing out relationships between western and southern Europeans, in my opinion, even versus more recent Eurogenes runs which divide Europe basically east/west, and which thus obscure some of these relationships. In Dodecad, the only Greek population is the Dodecad volunteer one, which cannot be held to be representative as we don't know if they were all or mainly from the mainland. Other analyses use a sample from Thessaly, I believe, which is in far northern Greece. When samples are taken from the islands and different communities in Greece and properly analyzed, then we can look at the situation.

In addition, you may have missed it, and I would bet a large sum that the people on anthrofora have either missed it or don't understand it, but the "Indo-Europeans" were apparently a highly mixed population with large amounts of EEF. Slavic or Northern European input does not equate to "Indo-European" precisely. It's a lot more complicated than that.

I've said all I have to say on the subject and won't be responding further.

I also think that someone should come up with some sort of vaccine inoculating people against an obsession with Sicilians. It's like a disease on anthrofora. Sicilians are ascinating people, no doubt, but this "obsession" is obviously the product of some bizarre agenda of the most unsavory kind.

oreo_cookie
25-10-14, 20:25
In addition, it is, to my knowledge, totally based on 23andme components that are themselves highly problematic for people in the Balkans including the Greeks. I would suggest taking a look at the reference populations used by 23andme. The reference population for the Balkans includes the Maltese, so any "southern" or "Mediterranean" or "West Asian" percentages for that matter would be in addition to what is already present in the reference sample. The results on 23andme are fun, but not for the kind of analysis which we do on this site.

This can't be, I think they listed it there on 23andme by mistake.

This is because:

1) Maltese score nearly all "Italian" with some Middle Eastern and North African elements aside from that, and they score identically to many southern Italians on 23andme. I share with many of them and none score anything significantly Balkan, which they would if they were in the reference population.

2) Mainland Greeks are the ones scoring more "Balkan", and Serbs, Albanians, etc. score that category almost in entirety. If Maltese were skewing it toward West Asian, as they would, Serbs would not be scoring more Balkan than Greeks do. Island Greeks on the other hand, at least those from Crete and Dodecanese, usually score "Italian" as their top, not "Balkan".

3) Maltese are genetically the closest to people from western Sicily, yet it is often people from eastern and central Sicily, as well as Apulia, who score the most "Balkan", of all the southern Italians I share with.

If any of this is doubtful to you I can show you screenshots of some results. Also, I have the GEDmatch ID numbers of many, many people who have shared them with me, and as such I have access to more information about these regions than just the Dodecad and Eurogenes averages. You do see that mainland Greeks have a significant "northern" shift from southern Italians, either due to higher Indo-European or due to Slavic influx in the Middle Ages (which is documented), and island Greeks are close to southern Italians. Anatolian Greeks there is not enough data about to conclusively say, but Dienekes, who runs Dodecad, was the one to say Pontic Greeks are close to NE Anatolian/Caucasus people and not to mainstream Greeks.

Hauteville
29-11-14, 19:11
Maltese are genetically similar to sicilians but not identical,look at Lazaridis et al. study (samples from east and west of the island) and you can notice that they have much more nw african admixture.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29427-Analysing-Eurasian-amp-African-autosomal-DNA-from-Lazaridis-et-al-2013

John Doe
29-11-14, 19:27
Maltese are genetically similar to sicilians but not identical,look at Lazaridis et al. study (samples from east and west of the island) and you can notice that they have much more nw african admixture.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29427-Analysing-Eurasian-amp-African-autosomal-DNA-from-Lazaridis-et-al-2013
Lazaridis also shows that Ashkenazim, Maltese and Sicilians plot next to each other in the gap between Europe and the near east, although I reckon Ashkenazim would share greater similarities with Cretans and Aegean islanders than with Maltese and Sicilians.

Hauteville
29-11-14, 19:33
Unfortunately the only greek samples are from the north of country as far as i know.

John Doe
29-11-14, 20:39
Unfortunately the only greek samples are from the north of country as far as i know.
Yeah, from Thessaloniki.

oreo_cookie
29-11-14, 20:39
Most Greeks live in the north of the country and as such should be the sample they use..

Pax Augusta
29-11-14, 21:14
Unfortunately the only greek samples are from the north of country as far as i know.


Yeah, from Thessaloniki.


Why? I didn't know that. It would be like in Italy to use samples from the north of country (eg. Lombardy) only.

oreo_cookie
29-11-14, 21:15
Why? It would be like in Italy to use samples from the north of country, Lombardy, only.

Thessaloniki has people living there from all over Greece, as well as people mixed with Anatolian Greek (many of them settled there). But either way if you took the sample from other regions on the mainland it wouldn't come out that different to Thessaloniki.

Pax Augusta
29-11-14, 21:17
Thessaloniki has people living there from all over Greece, as well as people mixed with Anatolian Greek (many of them settled there). But either way if you took the sample from other regions on the mainland it wouldn't come out that different to Thessaloniki.

Same in Lombardy, people living from all over Italy.

oreo_cookie
29-11-14, 21:21
Same in the Lombardy, people living from all over Italy.

Mainland Greeks do not differ all that much by region, going by results from Dodecad and Eurogenes. The only exception are some areas have somewhat more Slavic input than others.
My gripe was using the Dodecanese and Crete to represent all islands in that one study, when other islanders come closer to the mainland averages.

Hauteville
29-11-14, 21:32
Surely the Thessaloniki samples are from the ethnic people of the city and not with the anatolian settlers because as far as i know the anatolian settlers cluster almost with armenians.

Hauteville
29-11-14, 21:38
However i am sicilian from Sicily and i founded this thread very interesting i update the thread with other pics.
Some sicilian politicians,i will update with other pics.
http://s3.imagestime.com/out.php/i991752_EsterBonafede.jpg (http://www.imagestime.com/show.php/991752_EsterBonafede.jpg.html)http://s3.imagestime.com/out.php/i991751_anthonybarbagallopd335x175.jpg (http://www.imagestime.com/show.php/991751_anthonybarbagallopd335x175.jpg.html)http://s3.imagestime.com/out.php/i991750_4082063563742444478531537257420n290x427.jp g (http://www.imagestime.com/show.php/991750_4082063563742444478531537257420n290x427.jpg .html)
http://s3.imagestime.com/out.php/i991749_3733045253014574919371245290993n.jpg (http://www.imagestime.com/show.php/991749_3733045253014574919371245290993n.jpg.html)h ttp://s3.imagestime.com/out.php/i991748_marinonicol.jpg (http://www.imagestime.com/show.php/991748_marinonicol.jpg.html)http://s3.imagestime.com/out.php/i991747_dariocartabellottairvv300x237.jpg (http://www.imagestime.com/show.php/991747_dariocartabellottairvv300x237.jpg.html)

oreo_cookie
29-11-14, 21:39
Surely the Thessaloniki samples are from the ethnic people of the city and not with the anatolian settlers because as far as i know the anatolian settlers cluster almost with armenians.

You are thinking of Pontic Greeks, but the Greeks who lived on the western coast of Turkey do not plot that way (since they never lived near Pontus or the Caucasus). Greeks from western Anatolia should be more similar to standard Greeks, since there was a larger Greek presence there.

Pontians, on the other hand are just Hellenized Caucasus people (hence them being called "Caucasus Greeks").

Hauteville
29-11-14, 21:41
Yes i was talking about pontians indeed.

oreo_cookie
29-11-14, 21:42
Here are some other photos:

686268636864

oreo_cookie
29-11-14, 21:44
Yes i was talking about pontians indeed.

I can send you 23andme results from different islands and Anatolian Greeks. Sicilians seem to be such that depending on how much Northern admixture they have, they could plot with Ionian and North Aegean islanders (Lesbos, Chios, Lefkada, Corfu) and southern Peloponnese, OR if they have less continental admixture, with Cretans (the Paschou study said there was "partial overlap" between Sicily and Crete).

Anything north of the Peloponnese in Greece would have too much Slavic admixture to cluster with Sicilians, though. Which makes sense historically. Even if you found a Sicilian with significant Lombard or Norman, they wouldn't plot near people mixed with Slavic, since that pulls them east. On the other hand I plot near some mainland Greeks because I have both Sicilian and Polish in me.

Hauteville
29-11-14, 21:46
It makes a sense since most of our greek colonies was founded by peloponessians (such as Messina or Siracusa), Calcide (Catania and Lentini) or Creta (Agrigento, Selinunte, Heraclea Minoa and Gela).

Hauteville
29-11-14, 21:48
So are you half sicilian and half polish?
Regarding the founder of our greek colonies i will talk about it tomorrow now i going out. Buona serata.

oreo_cookie
29-11-14, 21:56
So are you half sicilian and half polish?
Regarding the founder of our greek colonies i will talk about it tomorrow now i going out. Buona serata.

1/2 Sicilian, 1/4 Polish, 1/4 Portuguese; somehow this comes out similar to many mainland Greeks.

Anyway, on GEDmatch many Sicilians have shared their results with me and their ID numbers. Those who seem closest to Cretans are people from Agrigento, Messina, Catania, and SOME Palermitans. Those who are closer to more geographically northern islands (Lefkada, Chios, Lesbos) or the Peloponnese are Trapani, some Palermitans, and one woman from Enna.

The difference is that Peloponnesians seem to plot similarly to Abruzzese, just more eastern because of the Slavic type input; so really, you could say these Sicilians probably are the ones with more northern influence whether Lombard or Norman or something else, but they will end up close to those Greeks and south-central Italians instead of islanders.