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T101
27-02-13, 06:48
Two teeth coming from fossil human skeletons were examined in the Molecular Technology Institute of Forensic Medicine Department, Wroclaw Medical University. It was stated that both teeth came from two men on the basis of the gene of amelogenin variants study. Determining polymorphisms of SNP type from chromosome Y resulted in categorizing skeleton from grave no. 1 with very high probability into haplogroup G, whereas skeleton from grave no. 2 with very high probability into one of three haplogroups J, I or E.

Bohdan Gworys et al.
sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305440313000459

LeBrok
27-02-13, 09:37
Thanks, great find. Any idea of carbon dating of these teeth?

Eldritch
27-02-13, 10:30
Very surprised to say the least.
I expected some R1a and we have this.

Maciamo
27-02-13, 10:45
Thanks, great find. Any idea of carbon dating of these teeth?

Jean Manco gives the age of 2800 BCE on her list of ancient Eurasian DNA. That would be the very onset of the Corded Ware Culture in south-west Poland, probably juxtaposing with the Neolithic Globular Amphora culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globular_Amphora_culture). These two samples are far more likely men from that latter Neolithic culture than the Corded Ware newcomers. The abstract is ambiguous about the culture to which the skeletons belong.


The aim of this study is to estimate the influence of general environmental conditions on human organism at the final stage of the Neolithic period – in the Corded Ware culture.

I think we are dealing with a transition period that starts showing influence of the expanding Corded Ware culture, but that is still a Neolithic culture.

Anthro-inclined
27-02-13, 22:52
Yet Another Example Of Haplogroup G's Dominance In Neolithic Europe. As For The Second Skeleton, It Seems Likely That Its I As J Is Not Prevelent In Poland And Likely Entered Europe Shortly Before This, And If It Was E Wouldnt They Be Able To Identify The UEP That Characterizes DE Descendents.

Maciamo
27-02-13, 23:02
Yet Another Example Of Haplogroup G's Dominance In Neolithic Europe. As For The Second Skeleton, It Seems Likely That Its I As J Is Not Prevelent In Poland And Likely Entered Europe Shortly Before This, And If It Was E Wouldnt They Be Able To Identify The UEP That Characterizes DE Descendents.

If it is I, it is most likely the Eastern European I2a1. My hypothesis is that Neolithic farming was brought to the Balkans by immigrants from the Near East, but that neighbouring indigenous I2a1 populations quickly picked up the new technologies or merged with the newcomers, so that cultures that spread north of the Danube, like the Cucuteni-Trypolye, but also the Globular Amphora, were probably in large part composed of I2a1 lineages.

I don't see why the sample couldn't be J. G2a is rare in Poland today too. Most of the European J1, as sparse as it is now, is almost certainly of Neolithic origin. J2 is still unclear.

So my guess is either I2a1 or J1 as the most likely candidates.

Anthro-inclined
28-02-13, 00:02
If it is I, it is most likely the Eastern European I2a1. My hypothesis is that Neolithic farming was brought to the Balkans by immigrants from the Near East, but that neighbouring indigenous I2a1 populations quickly picked up the new technologies or merged with the newcomers, so that cultures that spread north of the Danube, like the Cucuteni-Trypolye, but also the Globular Amphora, were probably in large part composed of I2a1 lineages.
This to me also seems like the most plausible result of the findings.


I don't see why the sample couldn't be J. G2a is rare in Poland today too. Most of the European J1, as sparse as it is now, is almost certainly of Neolithic origin. J2 is still unclear.

So my guess is either I2a1 or J1 as the most likely candidates.
I don't think J1 or J2 will be uncovered, because i haven't seen any ancient DNA that would support J in this area, at such an early point. But rather (I think) its presence in Poland is due to genetic drift, and not correlated with any particular cultural migration.
Also, i thought you would have agreed with it not being J, as you reference in this migration map from 4500 to 5000 YBP, you say otherwise about the main HG's within the corded ware culture. As you list I,G and even E, but not any J.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/early_bronze_age_europe.gif

MOESAN
28-02-13, 17:01
This to me also seems like the most plausible result of the findings.


I don't think J1 or J2 will be uncovered, because i haven't seen any ancient DNA that would support J in this area, at such an early point. But rather (I think) its presence in Poland is due to genetic drift, and not correlated with any particular cultural migration.
Also, i thought you would have agreed with it not being J, as you reference in this migration map from 4500 to 5000 YBP, you say otherwise about the main HG's within the corded ware culture. As you list I,G and even E, but not any J.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/early_bronze_age_europe.gif

its presence in Poland is due to genetic drift
what are you meaning saying that??? drift upon which HG? -
or maybe are you meaning an individual introduction)
sorry... I'm confused

MOESAN
28-02-13, 17:08
all that is still very scarce and doesn't prove anything - we need more and more ancient DNA in every site - (I take drugs to temper my upset nerves and my impatience: by chance I have some good wine at home!) -
concerning northern neolithic, I agree Y-I2a1 would have been part of the game, but I don't forget y-E1b-V13 too and maritime new waves of megalithers on coasts (Y-J1? + some Y-R1b??? these last ones less sure) - all that upon a Y-I1 and I1a2 stuff? only more data can break confusion: it is mathematical

Anthro-inclined
28-02-13, 20:52
My Mistake Incorrect Terminology On Genetic Drift. Probably Just Entered By Way Of Southern Europe By Small Migrations, I See No Direct Evidence Of A Major Late Neolithic Migration Of J Into This Area, As It Seems That Its Entry Is Most Likely More Recently.

Maciamo
28-02-13, 22:11
I don't think J1 or J2 will be uncovered, because i haven't seen any ancient DNA that would support J in this area, at such an early point. But rather (I think) its presence in Poland is due to genetic drift, and not correlated with any particular cultural migration.
Also, i thought you would have agreed with it not being J, as you reference in this migration map from 4500 to 5000 YBP, you say otherwise about the main HG's within the corded ware culture. As you list I,G and even E, but not any J.


I also think that I2a1 is more likely than J. All I am saying is that J is not impossible, even if J people only made up a tiny fraction of Neolithic farmers in Eastern Europe.

Anthro-inclined
28-02-13, 22:21
I also think that I2a1 is more likely than J. All I am saying is that J is not impossible, even if J people only made up a tiny fraction of Neolithic farmers in Eastern Europe.
I Agree, As Anything Is Possible, And Much Like You I Think That I Is Most Likely To Be Uncovered But Understand That It Cannot Be A Certainty. All I Was Trying To State In The Intial Post Was That It Seems That The Probability Of It Turning Out To Be J Is Highly Unlikely.

Alan
01-03-13, 18:22
Great findings, but the question for me now is, what does it say about the Corded Ware = Indo European connection some people believe.

Maciamo
01-03-13, 19:28
Great findings, but the question for me now is, what does it say about the Corded Ware = Indo European connection some people believe.

These are pre-Corded Ware inhabitants, so nothing. We already had R1a from later Corded Ware sites.

martinmkp
07-03-13, 01:59
The study is not so surprising, although we would like to expect R1a. But, I suppose at that time several Y-DNA from an early neolithic and late Neolithic worked side by side. I would not be surprised finding some traces of G even in later era. We can not see the Corded Ware as simply majority R1a (R1b) everywhere.

This study seems to be significant toward researchers - not making simple results on several studies of ancient DNA, not simplyfying, not see an ancient populations as a majority one or two Y-DNA haplogroups.

I think the common mistake is to assemble the Corded Ware with R1a (although prevalent for sure) - but for all region. It does not work at such a vast territory. The same case is Bell Beaker - I think Atlantic, Pyreneaen or German Plain Bell beakers could very easily be of different Y-DNA at one time, because of constant flow of genes south - north direction and intermixing with the previous populations.

The excellent example is Kromsdorf (R1b) - it absolutely does not mean that it is Bell Beaker common feature...

Also, very important is the place of finds. In this case (Wroclaw - Jagodno) it could be the mixture zone between new R1a and older populations at that time (-2800/-2600). Wroclaw - Jagodno is on the highway migration routes, but not far from the Northern Czech Mountains, which could naturally slow the migration flow of new inhabitants between Elbe and Dnieper region.

Fire Haired
25-06-13, 06:54
the G was almost defintley G2a probably subclade G2a3 the I/J/E was almost defintley I probably I2a1b

zanipolo
25-06-13, 07:54
the G was almost defintley G2a probably subclade G2a3 the I/J/E was almost defintley I probably I2a1b

G2a4 is in majority in the alps...for northern Italy it would be a mix with G2a3

nordicwarrior
25-06-13, 10:52
...If it is I, it is most likely the Eastern European I2a1....so that cultures that spread north of the Danube...were probably in large part composed of I2a1 lineages.

I guess I should crumple up all the I1 maps because they apparently didn't make it very far North. Sarcasm off.

My guess on the sample in question would be AT LEAST equal chances I1 to I2a1. And I would have J1 pegged at 2% chance or less. (Only because almost anything is possible so you do have to allow for statistical outliers).

Robert6
26-07-14, 10:02
It is interesting that people of Globular Amphora culture had haplogroup G (most possibly G2a) .
Globular Amphoras were found in Ukrainian and Russian Steppe regions in about 4900-4300 years ago.
Also they came to Caucasus the Kuban-Terskaya culture( Кубано-терская культура ) in Ossetia Kabarda and Stavropol krai is the eastern variant of Globular Amphora culture.
In their path they destroyed Cucuteni-Trypillian Yamna and Maykop cultures, and pushed out the Kuro-Araxes culture towards northern Anatolia.
After that new cultures were born in the Steppes.
Novosvobodnaya culture was a mix of Globular Amphora and Maykop cultures.
And Catacomb culture have some similarities to Globular Amphora culture.