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tjlowery87
06-03-13, 07:02
did the ancestors of i1 worship the gods odin and thor(not sure where to post this),i read that on a diffrent site, folks here seem more knowledgeable.

thank you

LeBrok
06-03-13, 07:21
And ancestors of R1b and ancestors of R1a.

Anthro-inclined
06-03-13, 07:38
This is a very interesting topic, the mythical figure of Odin is actually thought to predate the arrival of the indo europeans. which culture was the first to conceptualize Odin is up for debate, but due to sole geographical worship in northern Europe, where the Neolithic migrations were very limited in their genetic and cultural influence its highley likely that the worship of Odin is a paleolithic remanant in Europe, so it could be guessed that the majority of Odin worshippers 6000 years ago were mostly I. As for the worship of Thor, this seems to me to be related to the polytheistic religions brought by the indo europeans, like zeus and some Celtic deities.

Anthro-inclined
06-03-13, 08:38
To elaborate on my first reply, it is my belief that the concept of the wanderer predates the indo europeans, as of recent anthropologists and arcaeologists seem to agree that odin
coincides with the arrival of the proto germanic people. It is my belief however that the concept of a god of wisdom who displayed traits like odin was worshiped well back in european prehistory,

sparkey
06-03-13, 20:08
Since many, probably most, of the I1 in the world were at one point part of the pre-Christian Germanic population, it seems unavoidable that many worshiped Odin and Thor, or other derivations from their proto-Germanic variants, Wodanaz and Thunraz.

I will say that I'm inclined to believe the theory that Wodanaz was not the chief Germanic deity at one point, but rather came to replace Tiwaz (Norse Tyr), who is a much more obvious parallel to Greek Zeus, Roman Jupiter, etc. As to the exact origins of Wodanaz, I think it's far from resolved.

St Delcambre
06-03-13, 20:25
Since many, probably most, of the I1 in the world were at one point part of the pre-Christian Germanic population, it seems unavoidable that many worshiped Odin and Thor, or other derivations from their proto-Germanic variants, Wodanaz and Thunraz.

I will say that I'm inclined to believe the theory that Wodanaz was not the chief Germanic deity at one point, but rather came to replace Tiwaz (Norse Tyr), who is a much more obvious parallel to Greek Zeus, Roman Jupiter, etc. As to the exact origins of Wodanaz, I think it's far from resolved.

Do you believe this theory also applies to other variants such as Wuotan/Wotan/Wodin/etc..?

kamani
06-03-13, 22:27
Parallels between Odin and the celtic deity Lugus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugus) (Lugaid) have been found: both are intellectual gods, commanding magic and poetry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugus
Interestingly, in Albanian there is the word "Lugat / Lugad" which means specter/devil, probably a negative connotation given to him in christian times.

Anthro-inclined
06-03-13, 23:13
This is a great thread, im really interested in Odin and his origins. I was looking into norse mythology and other northern Germanic pagan religions, and the origins
and relationships are very hard to determine to say the least. There is also much creidence to believe that many cultural figures in our modern day, are believed to stem from these religions. Another point that can back up some Norse figures, like Odin, were worshipped in european prehistory, is that the Germanic languages are believed to have a substrate that is non indo european, and many words and structures in germanic languages are non indo european. I theorize that the germanic pagan religions could also contain elements of pre indo european religions, just like the languages.

tjlowery87
07-03-13, 00:01
This is a great thread, im really interested in Odin and his origins. I was looking into norse mythology and other northern Germanic pagan religions, and the origins
and relationships are very hard to determine to say the least. There is also much creidence to believe that many cultural figures in our modern day, are believed to stem from these religions. Another point that can back up some Norse figures, like Odin, were worshipped in european prehistory, is that the Germanic languages are believed to have a substrate that is non indo european, and many words and structures in germanic languages are non indo european. I theorize that the germanic pagan religions could also contain elements of pre indo european religions, just like the languages.


never thought of it like that

sparkey
07-03-13, 00:38
Do you believe this theory also applies to other variants such as Wuotan/Wotan/Wodin/etc..?

Since Wotan/Woden/etc. all seem to have been the chief deity in their respective culture, Wotanaz likely replaced Tiwaz as chief deity back during the proto-Germanic period, or earlier.


Parallels between Odin and the celtic deity Lugus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugus) (Lugaid) have been found: both are intellectual gods, commanding magic and poetry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugus
Interestingly, in Albanian there is the word "Lugat / Lugad" which means specter/devil, probably a negative connotation given to him in christian times.

Lugus is even more fascinating a mythological figure than Odin IMHO.

I've read that a possible pre-proto-Germanic form of Wotanaz as *Wātinos. This could refer to him as being god of poets or prophets... think of Celtic vates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vates). And who would have been the god of the Celtic vates? Presumably Lugus.

tjlowery87
07-03-13, 01:51
Holle is theorized to be an ancient Germanic supreme being who predates most of the Germanic pantheon, dating back to the Neolithic before Indo-European invasion of Europe.[citation needed (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] She also appears as "Frau Holle" ("Mother Hulda (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mother_Hulda)") in Grimm (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Grimm_brothers)'s Fairy Tale #24. Alternative names for this goddess include Holla, Holda (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Holda), Hulda, Hilde, Hilda, and many others

nordicfoyer
07-03-13, 02:31
I also had Odin as coming from the East (possibly with the arrival of R1a?). Very early I1 and I2 religious practices are difficult to peg because of scant artifacts and of course the lack of written language. I have paleo/meso I1 focused more on fertility rites, and as R1a and R1b settled in... they brought with them the mind set of the Russian steppes (more aggressive thinking, male Gods, larger focus on battle).

Anthro-inclined
07-03-13, 02:50
I also had Odin as coming from the East (possibly with the arrival of R1a?). Very early I1 and I2 religious practices are difficult to peg because of scant artifacts and of course the lack of written language. I have paleo/meso I1 focused more on fertility rites, and as R1a and R1b settled in... they brought with them the mind set of the Russian steppes (more aggressive thinking, male Gods, larger focus on battle).
Actually Odin fits in with fertility gods, as he often considered part of of the Vanir, the gods of norse mythology who are associated with fertility and wisdom. Odin and the things associated with him are not war like or agressive. This is also interesting, its an archeological find from Britain, from the pre indo european Britons, from around 2250 BC, definetly long before the celts.
www.abc.net.au/science/news/ancient/AncientRepublish_1187944.htm (http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/ancient/AncientRepublish_1187944.htm)

kamani
07-03-13, 03:13
Holle is theorized to be an ancient Germanic supreme being who predates most of the Germanic pantheon, dating back to the Neolithic before Indo-European invasion of Europe.[citation needed (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] She also appears as "Frau Holle" ("Mother Hulda (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mother_Hulda)") in Grimm (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Grimm_brothers)'s Fairy Tale #24. Alternative names for this goddess include Holla, Holda (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Holda), Hulda, Hilde, Hilda, and many others

That's interesting, Holle in albanian mean "aunt", but is also used as a sign of respect for a female person of age/authority. Just to connect the dots, in the neolithic many tribes were matriarchal obeying an aged female leader, as the source of life for the tribe. They had little knowledge that males contributed to procreation.

tjlowery87
07-03-13, 05:51
isnt the celtic pantheon a central european version of the north european germanic pantheon

kamani
07-03-13, 11:08
As for the worship of Thor, this seems to me to be related to the polytheistic religions brought by the indo europeans, like zeus and some Celtic deities.

Every religion in europe pre-dating christianity was polytheistic. According to Freud, monotheism was first introduced by an egyptian pharaoh (forgot the name), who needed a cult of the individual (himself) for controlling a large empire. Then it was adopted by egyptian jewish slaves into judaism (exodus etc). Only in recent roman times did monotheism spread in europe, for the same reason it was needed in egypt (to control the empire under one ruler). Same story with islam and the ottoman empire, or confucianism in china.

Anthro-inclined
07-03-13, 16:40
Every religion in europe pre-dating christianity was polytheistic. According to Freud, monotheism was first introduced by an egyptian pharaoh (forgot the name), who needed a cult of the individual (himself) for controlling a large empire. Then it was adopted by egyptian jewish slaves into judaism (exodus etc). Only in recent roman times did monotheism spread in europe, for the same reason it was needed in egypt (to control the empire under one ruler). Same story with islam and the ottoman empire, or confucianism in china.
Ok this is a very large claim, one cannot know for sure if every religion before christianity was polytheistic, we have no documentation to prove such claims, and dont use Freud as a source, much of what he said was speculation as he was the first in his field, and since when is freud a historian
Also polytheism isnt as old as one might think, as many indigenous religions are animistic, believing that the spirit lives within everything, so this was most likely practiced in europe before monotheism and polytheism, this can be justified by the cave paintings across europe that seem to paint pictures of animals and associate them with spiritual things. I connected Thor to the indo europeans, because he displayed traits that mirrored their kind of Polytheism.
Also your history of christianity is a conspiracy theory, go make a thread about that somewhere else.

EDIT; also polytheism can be tied to the advent of agriculture and animal husbandry, as societies that developed agriculture started to have polytheistic religions, like the people of the early middle east and the cherokee of north america.

hope
07-03-13, 17:50
Like sparkey I agree Lugus/Lugh is a very interesting character. However personally, I find Odin just a little more interesting.
From being turned out of the heavens and becoming a "wanderer", Odin as he progresses outside the Germanic boundaries develops to become as we see him later, the All-Father.
Taking on more roles Odin eventually replaced Tyr who then in some writings is shown as Odins son, even though he may have been considered father of the gods himself at an earlier point. [ I know this was already stated ]
To a degree when we find Lugus he has pretty much an established personality, Odin on the other hand seems to be ever developing. He has many names and forms and seems to fill almost all the necessary roles from mystic, to guide of the dead to Valhalla, fertility god, judge, god of war and of course the runes etc. He seemed to be the preferred god of the more elite,in later times ,perhaps as a result of the many things he becomes associated with such as writing, poetry and law making.
He did seem to become more civilised as time passed.

kamani
07-03-13, 22:04
and since when is freud a historian

Freud was actually very knowledged on the history of judaism (not to mention he was jewish, so not interested in writing lies about his people); he wrote a whole book on this subject, titled "Moses and Monotheism".


Also your history of christianity is a conspiracy theoryIt is not if you have read about roman emperor Konstantine the Great and how he legalized christianity and made it a state religion.

another example: why would the spanish minority insist on converting the american indians to christianity?

Anthro-inclined
07-03-13, 22:25
Freud was actually very knowledged on the history of judaism (not to mention he was jewish, so not interested in writing lies about his people); he wrote a whole book on this subject, titled "Moses and Monotheism".
He also conducted most of his work nearly 100 years ago, so a lot has changed in the field of anthropology and history.I didn't disagree with you when saying monotheism arrived recently, i disagreed with you saying that every religion in Europe pre Christianity was polytheistic. So I don't see much point in arguing this further.



It is not if you have read about roman emperor Konstantine the Great and how he legalized christianity and made it a state religion.
Don't know what this has to with Norse paganism.

kamani
08-03-13, 06:27
I didn't disagree with you when saying monotheism arrived recently, i disagreed with you saying that every religion in Europe pre Christianity was polytheistic.

I'm genuinely interested in knowing about a monotheistic pre-christian religion in europe.

Don't know what this has to with Norse paganism.
nothing, just responding to the conspiracy theory comment.

Anthro-inclined
08-03-13, 07:33
I'm genuinely interested in knowing about a monotheistic pre-christian religion in europe.
nothing, just responding to the conspiracy theory comment.
Read carefully, in my last post i said that ANIMISM was practiced in europe before polytheism, go back and read my post. Polytheism hasnt been around for that long, probably only 10000 years, before this as hunter gatherers all humans believed that the spirit world is in everthing around us( Animism ). Human history in Europe goes back 40000 years, to say that one religious form ( Polytheism ) was the only one practiced up until 2000 years ago, is ridiculous.

Anthro-inclined
08-03-13, 18:58
Another theism most likely in Europe during the paleolithic was Shamanism, this was probably the dominant type during the Aurignacian and Gravettian periods, as attested by their artifacts, like the lion man figurine. This imagery mirrors the beliefs in shamanism and the spirit world, this hybrid between a man and a lion, seems very likely to have been discovered through a vision of some sort, but this is just my theory. This imagery also shows similarities between the Cree people in Canada, who have historically practiced shamanism, and their beliefs in transformations. Read this article, if you have any knowledge of the artifacts discovered form the European paleolithic you'll be able to make connections, or perhaps not, just my opinion.
http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/articles/religion-of-aboriginal-people
Also im trying to find a connection between a figure like Odin and Shamanism, one can extract a few theories but none i am confident enough to talk about at this moment, need to do more research.
http://www.anthropark.wz.cz/aurign3.jpg

tjlowery87
09-03-13, 02:54
i imagine the pre germanic i1 worshipped some kind of storm deity

Templar
09-03-13, 03:26
This is a great thread, im really interested in Odin and his origins. I was looking into norse mythology and other northern Germanic pagan religions, and the origins
and relationships are very hard to determine to say the least. There is also much creidence to believe that many cultural figures in our modern day, are believed to stem from these religions. Another point that can back up some Norse figures, like Odin, were worshipped in european prehistory, is that the Germanic languages are believed to have a substrate that is non indo european, and many words and structures in germanic languages are non indo european. I theorize that the germanic pagan religions could also contain elements of pre indo european religions, just like the languages.

That is a great point. If many pre-Indo-European words remained, it makes sense that some of the culture, religion, and traditions did as well. Especially if we assume that Germanic people are more Cro-Magnon/Paleolithic European genetically than Indo-European.

kamani
09-03-13, 03:52
Read carefully, in my last post i said that ANIMISM was practiced in europe before polytheism, go back and read my post. Polytheism hasnt been around for that long, probably only 10000 years, before this as hunter gatherers all humans believed that the spirit world is in everthing around us( Animism ). Human history in Europe goes back 40000 years, to say that one religious form ( Polytheism ) was the only one practiced up until 2000 years ago, is ridiculous.

animism is polytheistic, unless you worship only one animal, but that's unlikely. Hunter-gatherer societies are usually animistic, because their lifes depend on the animals they have to hunt; if they kill too many of one animal, they cause an imbalance in the ecosystem and endanger their own lives in the long term. Native Americans are a good example of that (cult of the eagle, bear etc), but it wouldn't make sense for them to just stick to one animal as their only god.

nordicfoyer
09-03-13, 04:59
As the more warlike hg R mindset "rubbed off" on the I1 Norse and they left the fertility based religious practices-- a new group would have gelled. This would be the beginning of the Germanic tribes as we now understand them.

I hypothesize that the fertility aspects never fully went away, that the Norse relied on especially Thor for victory in battle. There are accounts of the Norsemen striking during a storm which would further freak out their opponents and give them what now read like supernatural powers.

Northern Germanic tribes also painted themselves black before battle (I think they attacked at night) and this would also terrify the intended target. My thought is that the Norse paid much closer attention to the timing of their attacks than other groups (time of day, weather, season, moon cycle) because they understood much of the battle is won before it begins. Fear is a powerful force, make the other guy fight it.

**EDIT** I also don't think the early hg R knew what they were getting involved with by teaching I1 the art of war. Little did they know that the student would surpass the teacher...

The great part about all of this entire thread is that there is no way to verify any aspect of this debate. We have only the fog of ancient myth, which is open to interpretation.

**EDIT II** That man-tiger or man-lion comparison might be off. Bear. Look into bear and it's importance for these peoples.

Anthro-inclined
09-03-13, 05:00
animism is polytheistic, unless you worship only one animal, but that's unlikely. Hunter-gatherer societies are usually animistic, because their lifes depend on the animals they have to hunt; if they kill too many of one animal, they cause an imbalance in the ecosystem and endanger their own lives in the long term. Native Americans are a good example of that (cult of the eagle, bear etc), but it wouldn't make sense for them to just stick to one animal as their only god.
my good lord i suspected that you didnt really know what you were talking about, but to not know the difference between Polytheism and Animism is pretty sad, considering your still defending your uninformed view. please take a class in religious philosophy go online and do some research, i really see no point in arguing with you at this point, until you can adquetly defend your argument without splitting hairs.

Anthro-inclined
09-03-13, 05:08
That is a great point. If many pre-Indo-European words remained, it makes sense that some of the culture, religion, and traditions did as well. Especially if we assume that Germanic people are more Cro-Magnon/Paleolithic European genetically than Indo-European.
Thank you, finally were getting back on topic. I agree with your point, an example i can give to support your argument would be the metis people. Even though their patrilineal lines are european about 75% of their genetic composition is indigenous american, at least historically. Even though their religion is catholic and language a creole, their culture and myths are indigenous.

Anthro-inclined
09-03-13, 07:06
**EDIT II** That man-tiger or man-lion comparison might be off. Bear. Look into bear and it's importance for these peoples.
Not really sure how you mean, nobody knows exactly what these peoples believed, as this figurine dates to 30000 years ago. I was trying to prove a correlation to shamanism, could you elaborate on how i was off. The first practice of shamanism is believed to be in Europe.

kamani
09-03-13, 07:44
my good lord i suspected that you didnt really know what you were talking about, but to not know the difference between Polytheism and Animism is pretty sad, considering your still defending your uninformed view. please take a class in religious philosophy go online and do some research, i really see no point in arguing with you at this point, until you can adquetly defend your argument without splitting hairs.

what is sad is to bring up animism out of desperation, when asked for an example of monotheism in pre-christian europe. Polytheism = many gods, and animism fits that profile. Whether you continue to argue or not is your business.

Anthro-inclined
09-03-13, 12:38
what is sad is to bring up animism out of desperation, when asked for an example of monotheism in pre-christian europe. Polytheism = many gods, and animism fits that profile. Whether you continue to argue or not is your business.
in animism one specific animal contains a spirit that is connected to the entirety of the spirit world, that animal is not a god in itself. in Polytheism there are specific Gods who are characterized by specific traits and are beleived to be responsible for certain phenomena. Do I really have to teach you an entire course here.If you are so adaminte to defend this, give me one source that says animism is a type of polythiesm.
Also if youd notice i also brought up shamanism as a pre polythiestic religion so what else do you want to see to disprove your uninformed views.

kamani
09-03-13, 18:38
in animism one specific animal contains a spirit that is connected to the entirety of the spirit world, that animal is not a god in itself. in Polytheism there are specific Gods who are characterized by specific traits and are beleived to be responsible for certain phenomena. Do I really have to teach you an entire course here.If you are so adaminte to defend this, give me one source that says animism is a type of polythiesm.
Also if youd notice i also brought up shamanism as a pre polythiestic religion so what else do you want to see to disprove your uninformed views.

You're not disproving anything, just playing with words to get away from getting caught not having an example of monotheism in pre-christian europe.
There are 3 possibilities: (no god),(1 god) or (many gods). You're saying shamanism and animism are in the (no god) category. Well, they would be if they had no supernatural beings; once you have supernatural beings, you have gods. The only way to get out of that is to say not all supernatural beings are gods, but then we're just playing with words and splitting hairs.

Anthro-inclined
09-03-13, 19:35
You're not disproving anything, just playing with words to get away from getting caught not having an example of monotheism in pre-christian europe.
There are 3 possibilities: (no god),(1 god) or (many gods). You're saying shamanism and animism are in the (no god) category. Well, they would be if they had no supernatural beings; once you have supernatural beings, you have gods. The only way to get out of that is to say not all supernatural beings are gods, but then we're just playing with words and splitting hairs.
im pretty sure anybody who knows anything about the study of religious philosopies knows this definition of theisms is incorrect , but go ahead and believe it, clearly i cant make you look up anything other than your own opinion. Also its quite funny how you said i was splitting hairs, when your entire argument is based on that. Still it seems that all this argument has become is who will get the last word
so really is there any point in carrying this on, why dont you post something about the actual topic instead of squabbling over a definition

kamani
09-03-13, 21:11
im pretty sure anybody who knows anything about the study of religious philosopies knows this definition of theisms is incorrect

I present simple logic which is completely ignored by vaguely calling upon mainstream authority on the subject. I guess there is no point continuing this argument.

tjlowery87
09-03-13, 23:50
maybe the vanir is reopresentation of the native and the asir is representtaion of the indo-europeans

Templar
10-03-13, 00:35
maybe the vanir is reopresentation of the native and the asir is representtaion of the indo-europeans

I just found this on wikipedia: "the Vanir appear to have mainly been connected with cultivation and fertility and the Æsir were connected with power and war".

If that bit of information is actually true, then you might be onto something. Paleolithic Europeans are widely known for their matriarchal fertility-oriented societies, while Indo-Europeans were obviously known for conquest and war (use of chariots, bronze weapons).

Anthro-inclined
10-03-13, 00:59
maybe the vanir is reopresentation of the native and the asir is representtaion of the indo-europeans
Very good theory, seems very plausible. Its pretty great when you get some tangible results from a thread, so back to the original question, we can probably agree that people who had first conceptualized Odin or a figure like him, were most
likely in europe during the paleolithic or mesolithic, with this in mind it seems quite possible that the majority of their Y dna was I.

nordicfoyer
10-03-13, 01:48
Anthro- regarding the illustration you posted, I think you were onto something showing the human/animal hybrid figurine and that this type of thinking probably played an important role in how these people referenced their surroundings and their place in it. However, I don't think the animal was supposed to be a lion, a cougar, or a tiger though. I think the animal was a bear.

And I was of the opinion the scholars had Odin belonging to hg R peoples.

Anthro-inclined
10-03-13, 04:08
Anthro- regarding the illustration you posted, I think you were onto something showing the human/animal hybrid figurine and that this type of thinking probably played an important role in how these people referenced their surroundings and their place in it. However, I don't think the animal was supposed to be a lion, a cougar, or a tiger though. I think the animal was a bear.

And I was of the opinion the scholars had Odin belonging to hg R peoples.
Ah, ok, the name that archeologists gave it was the lion man, however i agree with you seems more probable that it was a bear, it seems like a very important animal
to our paleolithic ancestors as you refrenced in your previous quote, but it could also be a smilodon. Thanks for clearing that up.

St Delcambre
11-03-13, 21:01
Since Wotan/Woden/etc. all seem to have been the chief deity in their respective culture, Wotanaz likely replaced Tiwaz as chief deity back during the proto-Germanic period, or earlier.



Lugus is even more fascinating a mythological figure than Odin IMHO.

I've read that a possible pre-proto-Germanic form of Wotanaz as *Wātinos. This could refer to him as being god of poets or prophets... think of Celtic vates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vates). And who would have been the god of the Celtic vates? Presumably Lugus.

Sparkey, do you happen to know which tribes/worshiping populations were associated with each particular variant? I've had trouble finding information on the subject. For instance, I've read that The Franks used the variant of "Wuotan" in their particular Germanic mythology, but I'm interested in tying in population/tribe groups to the other versions of the name.

sparkey
11-03-13, 22:03
Sparkey, do you happen to know which tribes/worshiping populations were associated with each particular variant? I've had trouble finding information on the subject. For instance, I've read that The Franks used the variant of "Wuotan" in their particular Germanic mythology, but I'm interested in tying in population/tribe groups to the other versions of the name.

I don't think I have an exhaustive list, and I believe it even varied within tribes. I have:

Alemanni: Wuodan
Anglo-Saxons: Wôden and Ƿōden
Lombards: Godan
Norse: Óðinn
Saxons: Wôden
Suebi: Wodan

There are plenty more variations...

MOESAN
11-03-13, 23:34
Sparkey, is there a link between the lombard (what period?) GODAN and the pangermanic word 'GOD' ???
or is it a late local evolution in Lombardia (celtic gaulish influence?:W- >> GW- >> G(o)-???) not shared with other Germanics?
thank beforehand

sparkey
12-03-13, 00:28
Sparkey, is there a link between the lombard (what period?) GODAN and the pangermanic word 'GOD' ???
or is it a late local evolution in Lombardia (celtic gaulish influence?:W- >> GW- >> G(o)-???) not shared with other Germanics?
thank beforehand

The time period relevant to Lombards using "Godan" is the 7th century, most importantly in the Origo Gentis Langobardorum. As for connections to the word "God"... good question. I dunno.

St Delcambre
13-03-13, 20:30
Thank you sir, very helpful!

MOESAN
13-03-13, 21:31
The time period relevant to Lombards using "Godan" is the 7th century, most importantly in the Origo Gentis Langobardorum. As for connections to the word "God"... good question. I dunno.

thanks
so, after colonization of N Italy - the continental celtic evolution W>GW seems sensible - so too, no link (apprently) with germanic general term 'god'

am I wrong?

tumi
29-03-13, 23:48
In anglo saxon worship Tiw or Tyr was the god of war and Odin the all father but I am sure someone will enlighten me further.

tjlowery87
14-06-13, 00:23
so basically the start of Germanic paganism is when the i1 native religion blended with the indo Europeans religons.???????

Fire Haired
02-07-13, 08:03
did the ancestors of i1 worship the gods odin and thor(not sure where to post this),i read that on a diffrent site, folks here seem more knowledgeable.

thank you

no they did not the invading proto Germans whp had Y DNA r1b U106 and conquered native scandnavien I1 where the first people to worship oden and thor they also brought y DNA I2a2 but they got that after conquering native people in Germany they also brought red hair which only exists in the areas of R1b L11 and its descendants except for the udmurts and in Indo Iranien Indo Europeans who migrated to asia don't get confused just because the indo iranien name sound mid eastern the first speakers where European because we have their remains and because u see alot of European traits like blonde hair in Indo Iranien areas in asia

in Germanic tradition Thor has long red hair and a huge red hair and like i said red hair in almost all of Europe is from R1b L11 Indo Europeans so the whole Norse gods thing is not from native Scandinavians and norse mythology is in the Indo European religion family along with hinduism but many I1 people like Vikings did worship thor and oden

tjlowery87
06-07-13, 05:27
r1b u106 did not become Germanic until they mixed with r1a and i1,if they never mixed then it would mostly be some kind of celtic.

tjlowery87
06-07-13, 05:28
celtic as in the wrestler you have a pic of as your avatar fire haired...lol

Fire Haired
06-07-13, 07:00
r1b u106 did not become Germanic until they mixed with r1a and i1,if they never mixed then it would mostly be some kind of celtic.

u would have to be a linguistic master to say that and it is not true the original r1b u106 people in Germany 4,000-5,000ybp would have spoken proto Germanic the ancestral language of Germanic then they mixed with native y dna i2a2 in Germany and migrated to Scandinavia and mixed with native y dna i1a2 then that is when the Germanic language probably began but the ancestral language came from r1b u106 people

Fire Haired
06-07-13, 07:01
celtic as in the wrestler you have a pic of as your avatar fire haired...lol

i choose him as my avatar because i have red hair and he actulley looks alot like me and because he is a total beast

tjlowery87
06-07-13, 12:14
whatever makes you happy.lol

XipeTotek
27-05-18, 16:04
odin is turkic shaman from tyrkland central asia

Salento
27-05-18, 17:10
odin is turkic shaman from tyrkland central asia
Iron Man was chatting with the Hulk and said that Thor is from Asgard, and then Black Widow added that:
“ ... Asgard is a small planetary body that serves as home to the Norse gods such as Thor, and their ruler, Odin. It exists in another dimensional plane and is about the size of the United States. It is not round like the Earth, does not spin on its axis, and does not revolve around the sun. ...”
LoL

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/marvelcinematicuniverse/images/2/26/AsgardFull.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180421164352

http://marvel.com/universe/Asgard#axzz5GiBSTFTf

Sile
27-05-18, 22:07
Iron Man was chatting with the Hulk and said that Thor is from Asgard, and then Black Widow added that:
“ ... Asgard is a small planetary body that serves as home to the Norse gods such as Thor, and their ruler, Odin. It exists in another dimensional plane and is about the size of the United States. It is not round like the Earth, does not spin on its axis, and does not revolve around the sun. ...”
LoL

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/marvelcinematicuniverse/images/2/26/AsgardFull.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180421164352

http://marvel.com/universe/Asgard#axzz5GiBSTFTf

careful , these gods might hear you , they must exist as we named wednesday from Woden, Thursday from Thor and Friday from Frida ...............stay low

paul333
27-05-18, 22:33
did the ancestors of i1 worship the gods odin and thor(not sure where to post this),i read that on a diffrent site, folks here seem more knowledgeable.

thank you


No doubt many of the ancesters of Y I1 haplogroup, in Scandinavia did worship both Odin, and Thor. These mythical Gods were believed to of entered Scandinavia with the Battle Axe culture, between 2,800/2,500 B C.

There was a God called 'Allfather', who had existed forever in an endless space, known as 'Ginnungagap', then came an existance of 'Yggdrasil' the world tree, it is from the roots of this tree that all things exist. Odin was the son of Borr, and a giantess called Bestla, Odin built Asgard, the home of the Gods, and Thor was his son, by Fjorgyn, an earth goddess. ( Odin had three wives, the other two being Frigga, and Rind ) Odin has been, and is often spelt many ways, ie Odin/Wotan/Woden.

In the in the UK 'Wednesday' is Odin's day, 'Thursday' is Thor's day etc.)

Thor may be associated/linked with the battle axe/hammer culture,( and the culture is named after their use of stone hammer/axes ) Thor is armed with his famous hammer. There were possibly many differing haplogroupes that worshipped these gods, but the culture is believed to of arrived from the East and south east. Odin ,is spelt in many ways as the cultures spread throughout Northern Europe,most notably during the migration periods ie around fifth century period and earlier.

Salento
28-05-18, 17:43
careful , these gods might hear you , they must exist as we named wednesday from Woden, Thursday from Thor and Friday from Frida ...............stay low

My Kung-Fu is strong, let the Gods hear me. :)
Saturday - Saturn's day (Kronos)
Martedì - Mars’ Day (Ares)
Mercoledì -Mercury’s Day (Hermes)
Giovedì - Jupiter’s day (Zeus)
Venerdì - Venus’ day (Aphrodite)

XipeTotek
15-06-18, 03:41
Iron Man was chatting with the Hulk and said that Thor is from Asgard, and then Black Widow added that:
“ ... Asgard is a small planetary body that serves as home to the Norse gods such as Thor, and their ruler, Odin. It exists in another dimensional plane and is about the size of the United States. It is not round like the Earth, does not spin on its axis, and does not revolve around the sun. ...”
LoL

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/marvelcinematicuniverse/images/2/26/AsgardFull.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180421164352

http://marvel.com/universe/Asgard#axzz5GiBSTFTf

i am not kidding lol.

https://able2know.org/topic/196748-2

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?topic=113196.0

http://archive.worldhistoria.com/does-the-runic-and-gokturk-monuments-have-the-same-origins_topic7373.html

10273


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtWmQ3tJLxw

Rizla
20-06-18, 08:11
i am not kidding lol.

https://able2know.org/topic/196748-2

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?topic=113196.0

http://archive.worldhistoria.com/does-the-runic-and-gokturk-monuments-have-the-same-origins_topic7373.html

10273


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtWmQ3tJLxw

Rubbish. Go away t-roll.

XipeTotek
26-06-18, 18:16
Rubbish. Go away t-roll.

why scandinavia have q hablogroup? (Turkic, Native American) in scandinavia mythology says oden and their asian tribes come from tyrkland. also Björk from iceland look like turkic.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwiuaqlXCIQ

Gokturk Alphabet and Viking Runes so similar

also in turkic language you can explain odin word. od meaning is =fire and you reverse a word "bilge" (sintine) gokturk alphabet to viking runes. thats give you a one word = oden.

you can search about that this is not joke or t-roll. scandinavia and central asia close areas. and have some connections.


and today some viking runes can readable with turkic language system.

http://www.s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/30_Writing/PrimitiveFutharkRu.htm

Rizla
27-06-18, 08:30
wow. You are serious? Can't even bother to explain how much you're getting wrong. Believe what you will, but let me say just one thing - Correlation doesn't mean causation. Also, don't put too much credence in old fairytales.

XipeTotek
27-06-18, 12:32
wow. You are serious? Can't even bother to explain how much you're getting wrong. Believe what you will, but let me say just one thing - Correlation doesn't mean causation. Also, don't put too much credence in old fairytales.

old viking fairytales(mythology) and runes says this not me.

http://www.antalyaonline.net/futhark/

3 stones from sweden reading with turkish/turkic language.

The Kylver stone from
Stanga (Gotland) SWEDEN

The Mojbro stone from
Uppland SWEDEN

The Istaby stone from
Blekinge SWEDEN

and first king of iceland name is Yngve Turkakonung (King of the Turks.)

also most popular name Hakan in sweden. this is a same meaning in turkish/turkic languages. Hakan meaning Leader.

i think these runes and similiarity not come from fairy tales. so you can't hocus pocus your runes, history and turkic dna from scandinavia.

Turks was be king of the every area on the world.(india,persia,anatolia,balkans, and europe with huns) its possible to scandinavia why not lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KmfhURrAuY&t=531s

oh we was touch it. i didn't know. look at 3:22

Angela
27-06-18, 12:49
@Xite Topek,
You've made your point, such as it is since there is no basis in archaeology or linguistics. Now stop spamming it or there will be consequences. We don't need to hear it over and over again.

@Members,
It's a bad idea to feed the you know what. :)

I1a3_Young
27-06-18, 16:30
Angela, I will try and help him, despite his interjection of Q haplo into the I1 forum.

Xipotek, you need to delve farther down into the Q tree to more recent SNPs to draw conclusions. Check this link https://yfull.com/tree/Q/

The Scandinavian branches of Q are not recently related to turkic people at all. The common link is ancient Siberia, thus the native American connection. I hope that link will allow you to have some new and interesting thoughts.

Angela
27-06-18, 16:54
Angela, I will try and help him, despite his interjection of Q haplo into the I1 forum.

Xipotek, you need to delve farther down into the Q tree to more recent SNPs to draw conclusions. Check this link https://yfull.com/tree/Q/

The Scandinavian branches of Q are not recently related to turkic people at all. The common link is ancient Siberia, thus the native American connection. I hope that link will allow you to have some new and interesting thoughts.

Thank-you. :) Now we've added genetics.

I'm sure he'll take it under advisement; open mindedness is a hallmark of so many of our members.

If you have problems with people going off topic on your threads, please inform me by pm in the future.

XipeTotek
28-06-18, 13:56
Angela, I will try and help him, despite his interjection of Q haplo into the I1 forum.

Xipotek, you need to delve farther down into the Q tree to more recent SNPs to draw conclusions. Check this link https://yfull.com/tree/Q/

The Scandinavian branches of Q are not recently related to turkic people at all. The common link is ancient Siberia, thus the native American connection. I hope that link will allow you to have some new and interesting thoughts.

okay i see on the map of the eupedia. they are proto turkic and amerindian peoples of ancient siberia. you are right

Salento
28-06-18, 15:33
okay i see on the map of the eupedia. they are proto turkic and amerindian peoples of ancient siberia. you are right

Many people try to prove Native American ancestry. In the US is mainly because of the Casinos in the Indian Reservations (Money, Money).
What’s your reason for pushing this Amerindian connection?

XipeTotek
28-06-18, 15:43
Many people try to prove Native American ancestry. In the US is mainly because of the Casinos in the Indian Reservations (Money, Money).
What’s your reason for pushing this Amerindian connection?

because proto turks and proto native americans come from same ancestors Q hablogroup. they are ancient siberians. scandinavian Q hablogroup come from ancient siberia. they have connection with proto-turks and proto-native americans


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UL_178su7IE&t=10s

so i follow the trail of main turkic hablogroup Q

Salento
28-06-18, 16:06
because proto turks and proto native americans come from same ancestors Q hablogroup. they are ancient siberians. scandinavian Q hablogroup come from ancient siberia. they have connection with proto-turks and proto-native americans


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UL_178su7IE&t=10s

so i follow the trail of main turkic hablogroup Q

Cool, for a moment I thought you were following the Money in the Indians Tribes associated with the Gaming Industry.
It might sound strange to you, but it’s not unusual at all.
If you get accepted as member of some of this tribes that operates casinos, you could benefit financially. :)

XipeTotek
28-06-18, 16:14
Cool, for a moment I thought you were following the Money in the Indians Tribes associated with the Gaming Industry.
It might sound strange to you, but it’s not unusual at all.
If you get accepted as member of some of this tribes that operates casinos, you could benefit financially. :)

i know it. i did read before. what should be say, thanksgiving to america

Rizla
29-06-18, 23:17
It's important to have an open mind, but not so open the brain falls out.