PDA

View Full Version : Where did Greek R1b come from?



Giordano57
12-03-13, 08:36
I see there is like 15.5% R1b in Greece? Is it because the Italo-Celts migrated through the Balkans from Anatolia or because of Celtic heritage? Or something else?

Thanks

Nobody1
12-03-13, 09:43
First of all there is no such thing as Italo-Cetlic, these peoples are called Umbrians [an Indo-European Urnfield culture (bronze age) people] that crossed the Alps via Modern Switzerland (lake dwelling cultures) and had a close-kinship with the Gauls and Helvetii:
(Livius, 9, 36.) "The Umbrians, who had been dispersed by the Etrurian conquerors, were received as brothers on the banks of the Saone and among the Helvetian tribes,"

As far as i understand R1b is Pre-Indo-European . The only Documented migration however is that of the [I]Sicani, an Iberian tribe that migrated after an Ligurian invasion from Iberia to Sicily.
Now if thats the case that tribes (or remnants of) could migrate by boat or land from Spain to Sicily, than god knows what kind of Ligurian or Iberian tribes straggled across the Balkans into Greece via land or boat.

Taranis
13-03-13, 20:03
First of all there is no such thing as Italo-Cetlic,

"Italo-Celtic" is an established concept in linguistics: it refers to common features that the Celtic languages and the Italic languages have in common. Wether this is due to a common ancestral language, or due to early contact between the two language families is a matter of debate.

Wether it makes sense to drag the concept over to linguistics is a different question.


these peoples are called Umbrians [an Indo-European Urnfield culture (bronze age) people] that crossed the Alps via Modern Switzerland (lake dwelling cultures) and had a close-kinship with the Gauls and Helvetii:
(Livius, 9, 36.) "The Umbrians, who had been dispersed by the Etrurian conquerors, were received as brothers on the banks of the Saone and among the Helvetian tribes,"

Livy never claimed that:

During these proceedings in Rome the siege of Sutrium was being kept up by the Etruscans. The consul Fabius was marching to assist the allies of Rome and to attempt the enemy's lines wherever it seemed practicable. His route lay along the lowest slopes of the mountain range, when he came upon the hostile forces drawn up in battle formation. The wide plain which stretched below revealed their enormous numbers, and in order to compensate for his own inferiority in that respect by the advantage of position, he deflected his column a little way on to the rising ground, which was rough and covered with stones. He then formed his front against the enemy. The Etruscans, thinking of nothing but their numbers, on which they solely relied, came on with such eager impetuosity that they flung away their javelins in order to come more quickly to a hand-to-hand fight, and rushed upon their foe with drawn swords. The Romans, on the other hand, showered down upon them first their javelins and then the stones with which the ground plentifully supplied them. Shields and helmets alike were struck, and those who were not wounded were confounded and bewildered; it was almost impossible for them to get to close quarters, and they had no missiles with which to keep up the fight from a distance. Whilst they were standing as a mark for the missiles, without any sufficient protection, some even retreating, the whole line wavering and unsteady, the Roman hastati and principes raised their battle-shout again and charged down upon them with drawn swords. The Etruscans did not wait for the charge but faced about and in disorderly flight made for their camp. The Roman cavalry, however, galloping in a slanting direction across the plain, headed off the fugitives, who gave up all idea of reaching their camp and turned off to the mountains. For the most part without arms, and with a large proportion of wounded, the fugitives entered the Ciminian forest. Many thousands of Etruscans were killed, thirty-eight standards were taken, and in the capture of the camp the Romans secured an immense amount of booty. Then the question was discussed whether to pursue the enemy or no.

You are actually misquoting John Lemprière, 1833 (in my opinion, neither the newest nor the most reliable source), who made the above mentioned claim about the Umbrians. Besides, the Umbrians spoke an Italic language (part of the Sabellic branch), which was not any closer to the Celtic languages than Latin.


As far as i understand R1b is Pre-Indo-European . The only Documented migration however is that of the [I]Sicani, an Iberian tribe that migrated after an Ligurian invasion from Iberia to Sicily.
Now if thats the case that tribes (or remnants of) could migrate by boat or land from Spain to Sicily, than god knows what kind of Ligurian or Iberian tribes straggled across the Balkans into Greece via land or boat.

That is a lot of speculation, starting with the assumption that the Ligurians were pre-Indo-European, and the claim that they invaded Iberia (first time I hear the latter). Do you have any evidence to back this up?

Nobody1
14-03-13, 06:49
Yes its a quote from J. Lemprière (C. Anthon) 1833, based on M. Amedee Thierry hypothesies which is based on the account of Plutarchs writing concerning the battle of Aquae Sextiae.* (quoted below) and the Livius, statement "Insubres, pagus Æduorum". Far fetched logic, agree.

Umbrians as akin to the Celts/Gauls:

James C. Prichard - Ethnography of Europe: Vol.III (1841)
"Solinus informs us that Bocchus, a writer who has been several times cited by Pliny, reported the Umbri to have been descended from the ancient Gauls;

and a similar account of their origin has been adopted, either from the same or from different testimony, by Servius, Isidore, and other writers of a late period."
[Umbri, Italiae gens est, sed Gallorum veterum propago]

Isaac Taylor - The Origin of the Aryans (1890)
"Towards the close of the neolithic age the same Aryan-speaking race [Indo-Europeans] which constructed the Swiss pile dwellings seems to have crossed the Alps, erecting their pile dwellings in the Italian lakes and in the marshes of the valley of the Po. Helbig has proved that these people must be identified with those whom we call the [B]Umbrians. This conclusion, established solely on archaeological grounds, is confirmed by the close connection between Celtic and Italic speech, and also by the almost identical civilization disclosed by the pile dwellings of Italy [North] and those of Switzerland."

Luke Owen Pike - The English and their Origin (1866)
"If now we consult the Umbrian language with a view of discovering whether it approaches more nearly the Gaelic or the Cymric type, we find, scanty though the evidence may be, that Umbrian differs from Latin in precisely the same manner in which Cymric and Greek differ from Latin. The Latin qu becomes, in Umbrian, as in Welsh and Greek, p: e.g. Latin quatuor, Umbrian petur, Welsh pedwar. The Welsh uch, uchel, appears as the Umbrian ucar, the Greek aixpog; the Welsh hwra as the Umbrian hri, the Greek aipsco;"

The "Gallic" Insubres were infact Umbrians (IsUMBRI-IsOMBRI)
Polybius called them Isombri and Strabo Symbri [sY(i)MBRI]

Matthias Koch - Die Alpen-Etrusker (1853)
[I]"Auffallend bleibt jedoch immer, dass in dem Insubrer-Namen der Umbrer-Name steckt. Polybius, der Erste, welcher die Insubrer nennt, schreibt oi'Iσομβροι , und 'Oμροι und 'Oμßρixoi heissen bei den Griechen die Umbrer,"

The Umbro-Ligurian mix:

*Plutarch - Lives (120 AD)
"they [Ambrones] often called out their name Ambrones, either to encourage one another or to terrify the Romans by this announcement. The Ligurians, who were the first of the Italic people to go down to battle with them, hearing their shouts, and understanding what they said, responded by calling out their old national name, which was the same, for the Ligurians also call themselves Ambrones when they refer to their origin."

Whether the Ligurians were a pre-Indo-European or an Indo-European people is a grant debate. But Anthropological(Archaeological) skulls and bones identify the Ligures with the Pre & Non Indo-European Lapps.

Werner Sombert - Vom Menschen (1938)
"Die alpine oder ligurische Rasse: breitköpfig, dunkelhaarig, den Lappen und Finnen verwandt."

Roberto Bosi - The Lapps (1977)
"Then [Rudolf Karl] Virchow. examining a number of Lappish skulls at Helsinki, Lund and Copenhagen, in conjunction with ancient Ligurian skulls, discovered many mutual features suggesting an identical strain."

As for the Sicani:

James C. Prichard - Ethnography of Europe: Vol.III (1841)
"Thucydides commences his narrative of the war of the Athenians in Sicily with a particular account of that island, and of the races of people who inhabited it.....The Sicani appear to have been the next settlers.......they were Iberes or Iberians: having been expelled from the river Sicanus, in Iberia, by the Ligurians,"

Edwin Guest - Origines Celticae (1883)
"Emporion lay a little north of Barcelona, and in calling it the 'Liguan Emporion', Scylax agrees with Thucydides, who represents the Iberian Sicanoi as having been expelled by the Ligues (Ligures) from the Sikanos, i.e. from the basin of the Ebro.
Next to the Ligues, who dwelt in the neighbourhood of this river, came the mixed Iberes, who reached as far as the Rhone. Festus Avienus makes this river the dividing line between the Iberes and the Ligures, who inhabited the Alpine district.-"

So it is clear that everything East of the Rhone was Ligurian, everything West of the Rhone was Iberes (mixed; poss. with Ligures / poss. with Celts), and South of the Pyrenees was Iberes except for a region on the Ebro that was Ligues (Ligures) after the conquest and expulsion of the Sicanoi (Sicani).

kamani
14-03-13, 08:22
I see there is like 15.5% R1b in Greece? Is it because the Italo-Celts migrated through the Balkans from Anatolia or because of Celtic heritage? Or something else?

Thanks

They share with albanians the same R1b subclade which is very old, 3000 BC or more, and a parent to the western subclades. So it probably split from the western R1b at a time when there were no nations, just small pastoral and agricultural tribes here and there with a few bronze knives owned mostly by chieftains. As to where it came from, there are 2 possible land routes from the caucasus, ukraine or anatolia. A possible sea route is from the Levant together with Cardium Pottery.

Pi gman
27-03-13, 22:07
They share with albanians the same R1b subclade which is very old, 3000 BC or more, and a parent to the western subclades. So it probably split from the western R1b at a time when there were no nations, just small pastoral and agricultural tribes here and there with a few bronze knives owned mostly by chieftains. As to where it came from, there are 2 possible land routes from the caucasus, ukraine or anatolia. A possible sea route is from the Levant together with Cardium Pottery.

The R1a and R1b split happened near the Levant so the sea route looks very logical to me. I am guessing Phoenicians.

MOESAN
31-03-13, 22:50
The R1a and R1b split happened near the Levant so the sea route looks very logical to me. I am guessing Phoenicians.

how are you sure of that?: I should see this split rather in N-Pakistan or surrounding regions, and I see no particular reason to the descendants to take the sea routeS (I suppose you mean Mediterranea) more than the landS routeS
but I lack precise data about that - maybe have you some precise survey about the supposed place of split between these 2 descendants lineages of Y-R1 ???
by the way, I don't believe Y-R1b was strong among Phoenicians...
good evening

Pi gman
31-03-13, 23:21
how are you sure of that?: I should see this split rather in N-Pakistan or surrounding regions, and I see no particular reason to the descendants to take the sea routeS (I suppose you mean Mediterranea) more than the landS routeS
but I lack precise data about that - maybe have you some precise survey about the supposed place of split between these 2 descendants lineages of Y-R1 ???
by the way, I don't believe Y-R1b was strong among Phoenicians...
good evening

Meant to say the R1b1a and R1b1b split:

5846

Alan
31-03-13, 23:56
how are you sure of that?: I should see this split rather in N-Pakistan or surrounding regions, and I see no particular reason to the descendants to take the sea routeS (I suppose you mean Mediterranea) more than the landS routeS
but I lack precise data about that - maybe have you some precise survey about the supposed place of split between these 2 descendants lineages of Y-R1 ???
by the way, I don't believe Y-R1b was strong among Phoenicians...
good evening


There was no "R1b-R1a" split anyways because its not like they are two elements of one bigger broken in half. R1b mutated most probably from R1* somewhere in Northern Mesopotamia or Southeastern Anatolia. While R1a* formed out of R1* either somewhere East of the Caspian, Pakistan or Western Asia.

Pi gman
01-04-13, 00:53
There was no "R1b-R1a" split anyways because its not like they are two elements of one bigger broken in half. R1b mutated most probably from R1* somewhere in Northern Mesopotamia or Southeastern Anatolia. While R1a* formed out of R1* either somewhere East of the Caspian, Pakistan or Western Asia.

Good point Alan,

I was thinking R1b1a and R1b1b split but typed R1a and R1b split.

Check out this map:

5847

Pi gman
01-04-13, 02:12
They share with albanians the same R1b subclade which is very old, 3000 BC or more, and a parent to the western subclades. So it probably split from the western R1b at a time when there were no nations, just small pastoral and agricultural tribes here and there with a few bronze knives owned mostly by chieftains. As to where it came from, there are 2 possible land routes from the caucasus, ukraine or anatolia. A possible sea route is from the Levant together with Cardium Pottery.

As long as we are talking about Greek R1b we may as well talk about this:

The Nora Stone or Nora Inscription is an ancient inscription found at Nora (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nora,_Italy) on the south coast of Sardinia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinia) in 1773. Though its precise finding place has been forgotten, it has been dated by palaeographic methods to the late 9th century to early 8th century BCE[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nora_Stone#cite_note-1) and is still considered the oldest Phoenician (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_language) inscription yet found in Sardinia. It is conserved at the Museo archeologico nazionale, Cagliari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museo_archeologico_nazionale,_Cagliari).
A possible reference to Pygmalion of Tyre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_of_Tyre) is inferred by an interpretation of the fragmentary inscription, made by Frank Moore Cross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Moore_Cross) as follows:[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nora_Stone#cite_note-2)

[a. He fought (?)]
[b. with the Sardinians (?)]
1. at Tarshish
2. and he drove them out.
3. Among the Sardinians
4. he is [now] at peace,
5. (and) his army is at peace:
6. Milkaton son of
7. Shubna (Shebna), general
8. of (king) Pummay.

Now I do not know if King Pummay(Pumayathon) or as he was known to the Greeks Pygmalion (PY or Pi house of/gma(gaman or kaman/lion(king) was R1b or not but he or his descents were in Southern Sardinia. My avatar is a photo of the Nora stone.

Why am I interested in that? Because our name was originally Pigmon some spelled it Pygmon and in Greek that would be Pgm only in Greek letters.
nEIrMO Greek for Pigmon. Sorry for the large letters. I copied and pasted and couldn't re size them.

The map I posted earlier has R1b1a in the Levant around 8,000 Y.B.P.or 6,000 B.C.E. so I could see it fitting in with the time frame of the Phoenicians and they would definitely use their sea routes and established trading posts they had set up with their trading partners the Greeks.

Phoenicians were one of the most diverse (mixed haplogroups) in history so I can also see that some of them could have come to the Anatolian coasts, Albania and Italy and France, and Spain via Sardinia.

zanipolo
01-04-13, 02:55
i would not be surprised if the frankish people in the early middle-ages brought a lot of R1b. There must have been a dozen frankish duchies in greece.
Then there is the italian ones in athens and the ionion islands ( not talking about the venetian ones )

kamani
01-04-13, 03:55
that's fascinating Pi-gman, the phoenician traders deffinitely brought a lot of innovations in the balkans (alphabet, writing, math etc). These were all necessary tools for performing trade and keeping records. Hence the greeks had an alphabet long before everybody else in the area, and everybody started borrowing it after. Genetically, I am not quite sure how early was their influence, so that they are considered a major R1b source for europe (they flourished around 1550-300 BC and there are older R1b samples found in germany). A sea-faring earlier neolithic civilization from the levant would make more sense in terms of timelines.

adamo
16-04-13, 17:56
Probably traveling French Celtic tribes that moved from franco-Germanic regions towards Macedonia, southern Balkans and eventually becoming the Galatians of central Anatolia are responsible for this 10-15% of R1b in Greece. Speculatingly, to me it would be attributed to the Dorians who's arrival is in synch with the sudden destruction and reduction of the Mycenaean J2 and E3b culture on mainland Greece and the islands, also the Middle Ages saw some arrival of Venetian R1b and such in relatively minor influence.