Are Swabians related to Italians?

Southern Germans do not cluster genetically with Northern Germans (making them not really German genetically). So who are they? Are they related to Italians?

Ever heard of variation between a country?
And no South Germans are more related to Austrians if anything.

What is now Southwestern Germany would have been dominated by Helvetii and similar Celts until circa 111 BCE. After that, the region received many assorted Germanic migrations... but the lack of particularly strong similarity between Northern and Southern Germans indicates some genetic continuity from the Celts living in the area before 111 BCE. On the Y line in particular, the elevated levels of R1b-U152 and certain I2 subclades like I2-L38 give strong evidence toward some Celtic continuity in the area.

As for closeness to Italians: I haven't seen any evidence of strong similarity between Southern Germans and Italians. Southern Germans, at least Southwestern Germans, seem to cluster best with the Swiss, which makes sense, considering their common Helvetian+West Germanic mix. There is also some similarity with Austrians, but they don't have the eastern pull that Austrians do.

JQP4545 said:

Southern Germans do not cluster genetically with Northern Germans (making them not really German genetically). So who are they? Are they related to Italians?

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Genetically speaking there is no such thing as the "Italians", the "Italians" are genetically diverse from each other. In fact the "Italians" are the most genetically divers Nation in Europe, which isnt much of a surprise since Italy only exists since 1861.
So you have to be a bit specific as to what kind of "Italians" the Southern Germans you think are related to.

The only (substantial) genetic link between Southern(west) Germans and Italians(north) would be the mutual high levels on [Y-DNA] Hg R1b-U152 (S-28). Other than that, not much.

"Italian DNA" is like saying "United States DNA". The Roman Empire was world's melting pot for a long time (actually more of a genetic salad bowl) so it's going to have quite an autosomal mix.

Nobody1 said:

Genetically speaking there is no such thing as the "Italians", the "Italians" are genetically diverse from each other. In fact the "Italians" are the most genetically divers Nation in Europe, which isnt much of a surprise since Italy only exists since 1861.
So you have to be a bit specific as to what kind of "Italians" the Southern Germans you think are related to.

The only (substantial) genetic link between Southern(west) Germans and Italians(north) would be the mutual high levels on [Y-DNA] Hg R1b-U152 (S-28). Other than that, not much.

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Your are correct, there was no Italians pre March 1861. The Italian constitution, their laws, all state this.

sparkey said:

What is now Southwestern Germany would have been dominated by Helvetii and similar Celts until circa 111 BCE. After that, the region received many assorted Germanic migrations... but the lack of particularly strong similarity between Northern and Southern Germans indicates some genetic continuity from the Celts living in the area before 111 BCE. On the Y line in particular, the elevated levels of R1b-U152 and certain I2 subclades like I2-L38 give strong evidence toward some Celtic continuity in the area.

As for closeness to Italians: I haven't seen any evidence of strong similarity between Southern Germans and Italians. Southern Germans, at least Southwestern Germans, seem to cluster best with the Swiss, which makes sense, considering their common Helvetian+West Germanic mix. There is also some similarity with Austrians, but they don't have the eastern pull that Austrians do.

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who are the germanics in southern germany in 111BCE?

The only germanics I know where the Alemanni who arrived in southern germany in 260AD, give 50 years or more to assimilate the population and you are 400 years out.

The original people where only Vindelici ( most probably celtic people) and Rhaetians .

The bavarians arrived later and where not germanics, even the name Bavaria is not Germanic

zanipolo said:

who are the germanics in southern germany in 111BCE?

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The Cimbri at first, and shortly after, the tribes commanded by Ariovistus (Suebi, Nemetes, Harudes...). The later Alemanni were probably related to, or even largely identical to, the Suebi of the region.

zanipolo said:

The original people where only Vindelici ( most probably celtic people) and Rhaetians .

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Modern Swabia would have included territory spanning multiple Celtic tribes, like the Helvetii and yes, the Vindelici. It depends somewhat on what time period you're talking about, actually, since the Helvetii in particular seem to have moved around a lot. Raetia (not the province, but the territory of the Raetians prior to Roman expansion) may have overlapped a little on the southern tip of Swabia, but was centered more on modern Grisons.

zanipolo said:

who are the germanics in southern germany in 111BCE?

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111 BCE is too early, wouldnt know about that either;

but as Sparkey already pointed out, Ariovistus and his Suebic invasion [1st cen. BC] into Gallic territory is the first documentation of Germanic people in the Upper Rhine region. The Suebi were however driven back by the Romans under Caesar;
During Roman times; the land behind the Limes and between the Rhine and Danube was known as the "Dekumatsland" - "Agri Decumates", and Tacitus (1st cen. AD) informs us that the inhabitants were still Gauls/Celts.
When the Limes and the Agri Decumates were abandoned by the Romans [~260 AD] the Alamanni (Suebi) started to settle the south-west of Germany, the former Agri Decumates (Dekumatsland).

The Agri Decumates was the triangle region between Rhein (Rhine) Donau (Danube) and Limes (Defense line)

http://geschichtsverein-koengen.de/KarteLimes10.gif

Bavari

The Bajuwaren (Bavari) were like the Langobarden (Langobardi) a mix of several remnant tribes of their region, they were not a Homogeneous people.

Example of the Langobarden:

Paul the Deacon - Historia gentis Langobardorum (799 AD) - [Langobard settlement in Gallia Cisalpina]
"Whence, even until today, we call the villages in which they dwell Gepidan, Bulgarian, Sarmatian, Pannonian, Suabian, Norican, or by other names of this kind."

The Langobards (proper) still remained the most dominant element but far from the only.
I would imagine that the Bajuwaren were a similar mix, with the Marcomanni (maybe) being the dominant element. One always has to remember that the "tribes" of the migration era were largely shaken up by the Hunnic invasion and later simply merged with or subdued other remnant tribes.

The Bavari were of course a Germanic people/union (broadest sense) with a strong alliance to the Langobardi and distinguishing themselves from the Slavs and Avars.

Nobody1 said:

111 BCE is too early, wouldnt know about that either;

but as Sparkey already pointed out, Ariovistus and his Suebic invasion [1st cen. BC] into Gallic territory is the first documentation of Germanic people in the Upper Rhine region. The Suebi were however driven back by the Romans under Caesar;
During Roman times; the land behind the Limes and between the Rhine and Danube was known as the "Dekumatsland" - "Agri Decumates", and Tacitus (1st cen. AD) informs us that the inhabitants were still Gauls/Celts.
When the Limes and the Agri Decumates were abandoned by the Romans [~260 AD] the Alamanni (Suebi) started to settle the south-west of Germany, the former Agri Decumates (Dekumatsland).

The Agri Decumates was the triangle region between Rhein (Rhine) Donau (Danube) and Limes (Defense line)

http://geschichtsverein-koengen.de/KarteLimes10.gif

Bavari

The Bajuwaren (Bavari) were like the Langobarden (Langobardi) a mix of several remnant tribes of their region, they were not a Homogeneous people.

Example of the Langobarden:

Paul the Deacon - Historia gentis Langobardorum (799 AD) - [Langobard settlement in Gallia Cisalpina]
"Whence, even until today, we call the villages in which they dwell Gepidan, Bulgarian, Sarmatian, Pannonian, Suabian, Norican, or by other names of this kind."

The Langobards (proper) still remained the most dominant element but far from the only.
I would imagine that the Bajuwaren were a similar mix, with the Marcomanni (maybe) being the dominant element. One always has to remember that the "tribes" of the migration era were largely shaken up by the Hunnic invasion and later simply merged with or subdued other remnant tribes.

The Bavari were of course a Germanic people/union (broadest sense) with a strong alliance to the Langobardi and distinguishing themselves from the Slavs and Avars.

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Ariovistus only had an invasion by having an alliance with Gallic/Celtic tribes ( they dominated his army in numbers ), he could not do it on his own and failed anyway.

the longobards never entered Italy until after the collapse of the Roman empire....when did the Bavarians enter the known Roman empire's borders.?
We basically can say that there where no Germanic people in southern Germany until after 300AD.

Language does not tell an ethnic people and should not be used to determine any kind of sovereignty of lands.
as an example, we both are communicating in English , yet neither of us are English ethnically.

sparkey said:

The Cimbri at first, and shortly after, the tribes commanded by Ariovistus (Suebi, Nemetes, Harudes...). The later Alemanni were probably related to, or even largely identical to, the Suebi of the region.

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Both failed, I still say there where no Germanic people in southern Germany until 300AD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarii

at Zanipolo

It depends how you define South Germany, in Germany the standard definition is everything South of the Main river (broadest sense also the area south of the Mosel river).

By this definition, large parts south of the Main (east and north of the Limes and Danube) were already Germanic [Juthungen] during Roman times.
The Romans abandoned the Limes and the Agri Decumates ~260 AD, with the invading Alemanni settling it subsequently. Thus all the lands between Main and Danube were Germanic.

Germanic invasions 258-260 AD & the Alemannic gain of the Agri Decumates(green) ~260 AD
http://amoiltedesco.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/limes7.png

But if your definition of South Germany being everything south of the Danube, than that region wasnt Germanic until after the Hunnic invasion, late 5th cen. AD

zanipolo said:

Both failed, I still say there where no Germanic people in southern Germany until 300AD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarii

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Not sure about the Cimbri, but I've read that the Suebi left remnants. Anyway, my point wasn't that by 111BCE, the Celts were replaced by Germanic peoples, I used that date to mark the beginning of the end of Celtic dominance. In fact, I don't think that the Celtic-origin genetics of the region were ever replaced significantly, even during the Alemannic migration.

Nobody1 said:

at Zanipolo

It depends how you define South Germany, in Germany the standard definition is everything South of the Main river (broadest sense also the area south of the Mosel river).

By this definition, large parts south of the Main (east and north of the Limes and Danube) were already Germanic [Juthungen] during Roman times.
The Romans abandoned the Limes and the Agri Decumates ~260 AD, with the invading Alemanni settling it subsequently. Thus all the lands between Main and Danube were Germanic.

Germanic invasions 258-260 AD & the Alemannic gain of the Agri Decumates(green) ~260 AD
http://amoiltedesco.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/limes7.png

But if your definition of South Germany being everything south of the Danube, than that region wasnt Germanic until after the Hunnic invasion, late 5th cen. AD

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south of the danube...the Roman frontier...............so we agree:cool-v:

sparkey said:

Not sure about the Cimbri, but I've read that the Suebi left remnants. Anyway, my point wasn't that by 111BCE, the Celts were replaced by Germanic peoples, I used that date to mark the beginning of the end of Celtic dominance. In fact, I don't think that the Celtic-origin genetics of the region were ever replaced significantly, even during the Alemannic migration.

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if you open the link to the 2012 languages in north italy...cimbro is seen in western veneto near trento ( see legend for colour)
http://digidownload.libero.it/alpdn/Mappe/LinguePadanesi.png

Where these cimbri even germanic ?......David Faux states in his article , that although they originated in jutland, they where not germanic?

at Zanipolo

Correct, David Faux compiles a good account about the Cimbri and their Historical kinship to the Kelts.
But keep in mind that Cimbri is a terminology (with its many etymologies) that occurs throughout Europe and throughout the entire range of Indo-Europeans.

Diodorus Siculus - 1st cen. BC [ref. to Celts/Gauls]
"They are so noted for a fierce and warlike people, that some have thought them to be those that antiently overran all Asia, and were then called Cimerians, and who are now (through length of time) with a little alteration, called Cimbrians"

Cambrian Institute - The Cambrian Journal (1862)
"The Gomeridae of Gaul assumed the name of Kelts, or Galatai ; at a period when those of Britain, Germany, and Italy, adhered to the patriarchal one, Cimbri, Umbri, Cymry;"

You find Cimbric etymologies throughout Indo-European Europe in: UMBRI (Italy); AMBROnes (Helveti), sicAMBRI (Germanic), cYMRI (Wales), cIMBRI (Jutland) etc.

Cambridge University - Cambridge Essays (1856)
"Moreover, Humber and Umbro connect themselves with the Gaelic amhainn or amhna, 'a river;' and supposing that the words Cambrian, Cumbrian, Cymru (which the Welsh divide as Cy-bru, Cym-bru, or Cyn-bru), Cimbri, Cimmerii bear the same relation to the words Humber, Umbro, &c,"

Whether the Jutland Cimbri were Keltic or Teutonic is a strenuous question, depending on the def. of Keltic and the knowledge of the Cimbri, but Dr. Faux compiles a great account. The Cimbri were definitely archaic Indo-Europeans akin to both.

David Faux - (found the study)
http://www.davidkfaux.org/Cimbri-Chronology.pdf

The Cimbri of Alpine Venetia are however not related to the Jutland Cimbri, they are the descendants of Bavarian peasants that migrated to that region in the Middle ages. Their name Zimberer (timberers) indicates their craft of Carpentry, and thats where their name originates. However, it is to note, that Strabo already recorded a tribe known as Symbri (sYMBRI) north of the Veneti as early as the 1st cen. AD.
Henry Malden - History of Rome (1830)
"It is possible however that the Symbri, whom Strabo mentions as a small community above the Veneti.H may have been a tribe detached from the Umbrians, or left behind in the course of national migration."

Zimberer of Alpine Venetia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gl5gf-fvsc

Nobody1 said:

at Zanipolo

Correct, David Faux compiles a good account about the Cimbri and their Historical kinship to the Kelts.
But keep in mind that Cimbri is a terminology (with its many etymologies) that occurs throughout Europe and throughout the entire range of Indo-Europeans.

Diodorus Siculus - 1st cen. BC [ref. to Celts/Gauls]
"They are so noted for a fierce and warlike people, that some have thought them to be those that antiently overran all Asia, and were then called Cimerians, and who are now (through length of time) with a little alteration, called Cimbrians"

Cambrian Institute - The Cambrian Journal (1862)
"The Gomeridae of Gaul assumed the name of Kelts, or Galatai ; at a period when those of Britain, Germany, and Italy, adhered to the patriarchal one, Cimbri, Umbri, Cymry;"

You find Cimbric etymologies throughout Indo-European Europe in: UMBRI (Italy); AMBROnes (Helveti), sicAMBRI (Germanic), cYMRI (Wales), cIMBRI (Jutland) etc.

Cambridge University - Cambridge Essays (1856)
"Moreover, Humber and Umbro connect themselves with the Gaelic amhainn or amhna, 'a river;' and supposing that the words Cambrian, Cumbrian, Cymru (which the Welsh divide as Cy-bru, Cym-bru, or Cyn-bru), Cimbri, Cimmerii bear the same relation to the words Humber, Umbro, &c,"

Whether the Jutland Cimbri were Keltic or Teutonic is a strenuous question, depending on the def. of Keltic and the knowledge of the Cimbri, but Dr. Faux compiles a great account. The Cimbri were definitely archaic Indo-Europeans akin to both.

David Faux - (found the study)
http://www.davidkfaux.org/Cimbri-Chronology.pdf

Click to expand...

After the German linguist Wolfram Euler ("Sprache und Herkunft der Germanen"), the Cimbri can very well have been Germanic, rather than Celtic. Specifically if one assumes that the Proto-Germanic consonant shift (Grimm's Law) only occured in the 1st century BC. Also, with all respect for the love of all things Celtic, there is no evidence that there ever was a Celtic presence (linguistically speaking) on the Jutland peninsula.

The connection of Cimbri and Cimmerians is phonologically implausible because it requires the development *b > *m (the reverse is plausible, but obviously the Cimmerians are the older name).

The name "Cymru" is also unrelated, it derives from earlier *Com-brogi".

The Cimbri of Alpine Venetia are however not related to the Jutland Cimbri, they are the descendants of Bavarian peasants that migrated to that region in the Middle ages. Their name Zimberer (timberers) indicates their craft of Carpentry, and thats where their name originates. However, it is to note, that Strabo already recorded a tribe known as Symbri (sYMBRI) north of the Veneti as early as the 1st cen. AD.
Henry Malden - History of Rome (1830)
"It is possible however that the Symbri, whom Strabo mentions as a small community above the Veneti.H may have been a tribe detached from the Umbrians, or left behind in the course of national migration."

Zimberer of Alpine Venetia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gl5gf-fvsc

Click to expand...

The Zimbern are completely unrelated with the Cimbri. As you wrote yourself, the name "Zimbern" derives from earlier 'timber' (High German consonant shift!). In my opionion the Zimbern are just Bavarians who migrated across the Alps during the Medieval Ages. The Cimbri/Zimbern connection is, from the perspective of the sounds involved, *k in "Cimbri" vs. ancestral *t in Zimbern totally implausible.

Taranis said:

After the German linguist Wolfram Euler ("Sprache und Herkunft der Germanen"), the Cimbri can very well have been Germanic, rather than Celtic. Specifically if one assumes that the Proto-Germanic consonant shift (Grimm's Law) only occured in the 1st century BC. Also, with all respect for the love of all things Celtic, there is no evidence that there ever was a Celtic presence (linguistically speaking) on the Jutland peninsula.

The connection of Cimbri and Cimmerians is phonologically implausible because it requires the development *b > *m (the reverse is plausible, but obviously the Cimmerians are the older name).

The name "Cymru" is also unrelated, it derives from earlier *Com-brogi".



The Zimbern are completely unrelated with the Cimbri. As you wrote yourself, the name "Zimbern" derives from earlier 'timber' (High German consonant shift!). In my opionion the Zimbern are just Bavarians who migrated across the Alps during the Medieval Ages. The Cimbri/Zimbern connection is, from the perspective of the sounds involved, *k in "Cimbri" vs. ancestral *t in Zimbern totally implausible.

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A very positive contribution.

I'm not that knowledgeable as regards Suevian migrations. From what little I've researched the majority seem to have migrated west, settling eventually in the north-west regions of the Iberian Peninsula.

Taranis said:

After the German linguist Wolfram Euler ("Sprache und Herkunft der Germanen"), the Cimbri can very well have been Germanic, rather than Celtic. Specifically if one assumes that the Proto-Germanic consonant shift (Grimm's Law) only occured in the 1st century BC. Also, with all respect for the love of all things Celtic, there is no evidence that there ever was a Celtic presence (linguistically speaking) on the Jutland peninsula.

The connection of Cimbri and Cimmerians is phonologically implausible because it requires the development *b > *m (the reverse is plausible, but obviously the Cimmerians are the older name).

The name "Cymru" is also unrelated, it derives from earlier *Com-brogi".



The Zimbern are completely unrelated with the Cimbri. As you wrote yourself, the name "Zimbern" derives from earlier 'timber' (High German consonant shift!). In my opionion the Zimbern are just Bavarians who migrated across the Alps during the Medieval Ages. The Cimbri/Zimbern connection is, from the perspective of the sounds involved, *k in "Cimbri" vs. ancestral *t in Zimbern totally implausible.

Click to expand...

Unsure, but back to topic, there are too many nationalistic people who fail to see that there where no south germnaic or austrians etc....there was a DIFFERENT ethnic people there at the time and they lost out to assimilation over time. Clearly modern day writings have no clue or are forced to tow the nationalistic line .


IMO, some ancient alpine people regardless of which nation would have and should have some degree of similar ethnicity.
even in the middleages, the Scaliger of swabia ruled and brought people into verona, the Ezzelini's from augsburg did similar with San Zenone in Veneto. "southern germans" from Marling baden, settled in Merling, veneto ( now known as Merlengo) due to similarity with the people....these are not the germanic similarities we find.

Regarding the Nobody and Taranis conversation, here's a novel (and a bit weird) approach.

I think we can agree that David Faux's Cimbri writings are well researched and thorough. His claims that the Northern Cimbri had strongly Celtic genetics does match with what we see in Denmark today and also with the remains that have been found in Jutland. (Please note: the studies going on in Denmark will be key in either cementing the Faux theory or will open up this area to additional I1 Norse influence. The importance of these findings can't be understated in my opinion).

But back to topic-- so what if the Cimbri in Jutland were indeed heavy in Celtic genetics including y-haplogroup, but spoke a Germanic language? To see this scenerio played out in real life, we only have to look at the overwhelming success of modern English (a primarily Germanic language).

Simply put, I think the directness of Germanic speech out-compete the Celtic tongues. Don't get me wrong, the lyrically gifted Irish can surely pack more meaning and subtext in a couple sentences than the standard German can in 15 pages, but when put side by side I think the masses pick the simplier and more direct approach.

Case in point, almost all of England, Wales, Ireland, Scotland, and really almost the whole world at this point are speaking English rather than Gaelic variations (and yes I know of the Celtic native language resurgence-- too small yet to make a pronounced splash) even though all of the British Islanders are incredibly R1b dominate.