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Southern Germans do not cluster genetically with Northern Germans (making them not really German genetically). So who are they? Are they related to Italians?
Genetically speaking there is no such thing as the "Italians", the "Italians" are genetically diverse from each other. In fact the "Italians" are the most genetically divers Nation in Europe, which isnt much of a surprise since Italy only exists since 1861.
So you have to be a bit specific as to what kind of "Italians" the Southern Germans you think are related to.
The only (substantial) genetic link between Southern(west) Germans and Italians(north) would be the mutual high levels on [Y-DNA] Hg R1b-U152 (S-28). Other than that, not much.
What is now Southwestern Germany would have been dominated by Helvetii and similar Celts until circa 111 BCE. After that, the region received many assorted Germanic migrations... but the lack of particularly strong similarity between Northern and Southern Germans indicates some genetic continuity from the Celts living in the area before 111 BCE. On the Y line in particular, the elevated levels of R1b-U152 and certain I2 subclades like I2-L38 give strong evidence toward some Celtic continuity in the area.
As for closeness to Italians: I haven't seen any evidence of strong similarity between Southern Germans and Italians. Southern Germans, at least Southwestern Germans, seem to cluster best with the Swiss, which makes sense, considering their common Helvetian+West Germanic mix. There is also some similarity with Austrians, but they don't have the eastern pull that Austrians do.
who are the germanics in southern germany in 111BCE?
The original people where only Vindelici ( most probably celtic people) and Rhaetians .
who are the germanics in southern germany in 111BCE?
111 BCE is too early, wouldnt know about that either;
but as Sparkey already pointed out, Ariovistus and his Suebic invasion [1st cen. BC] into Gallic territory is the first documentation of Germanic people in the Upper Rhine region. The Suebi were however driven back by the Romans under Caesar;
During Roman times; the land behind the Limes and between the Rhine and Danube was known as the "Dekumatsland" - "Agri Decumates", and Tacitus (1st cen. AD) informs us that the inhabitants were still Gauls/Celts.
When the Limes and the Agri Decumates were abandoned by the Romans [~260 AD] the Alamanni (Suebi) started to settle the south-west of Germany, the former Agri Decumates (Dekumatsland).
The Agri Decumates was the triangle region between Rhein (Rhine) Donau (Danube) and Limes (Defense line)
http://geschichtsverein-koengen.de/KarteLimes10.gif
Bavari
The Bajuwaren (Bavari) were like the Langobarden (Langobardi) a mix of several remnant tribes of their region, they were not a Homogeneous people.
Example of the Langobarden:
Paul the Deacon - Historia gentis Langobardorum (799 AD) - [Langobard settlement in Gallia Cisalpina]
"Whence, even until today, we call the villages in which they dwell Gepidan, Bulgarian, Sarmatian, Pannonian, Suabian, Norican, or by other names of this kind."
The Langobards (proper) still remained the most dominant element but far from the only.
I would imagine that the Bajuwaren were a similar mix, with the Marcomanni (maybe) being the dominant element. One always has to remember that the "tribes" of the migration era were largely shaken up by the Hunnic invasion and later simply merged with or subdued other remnant tribes.
The Bavari were of course a Germanic people/union (broadest sense) with a strong alliance to the Langobardi and distinguishing themselves from the Slavs and Avars.
The Cimbri at first, and shortly after, the tribes commanded by Ariovistus (Suebi, Nemetes, Harudes...). The later Alemanni were probably related to, or even largely identical to, the Suebi of the region.
Both failed, I still say there where no Germanic people in southern Germany until 300AD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarii
at Zanipolo
It depends how you define South Germany, in Germany the standard definition is everything South of the Main river (broadest sense also the area south of the Mosel river).
By this definition, large parts south of the Main (east and north of the Limes and Danube) were already Germanic [Juthungen] during Roman times.
The Romans abandoned the Limes and the Agri Decumates ~260 AD, with the invading Alemanni settling it subsequently. Thus all the lands between Main and Danube were Germanic.
Germanic invasions 258-260 AD & the Alemannic gain of the Agri Decumates(green) ~260 AD
http://amoiltedesco.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/limes7.png
But if your definition of South Germany being everything south of the Danube, than that region wasnt Germanic until after the Hunnic invasion, late 5th cen. AD
Not sure about the Cimbri, but I've read that the Suebi left remnants. Anyway, my point wasn't that by 111BCE, the Celts were replaced by Germanic peoples, I used that date to mark the beginning of the end of Celtic dominance. In fact, I don't think that the Celtic-origin genetics of the region were ever replaced significantly, even during the Alemannic migration.
at Zanipolo
Correct, David Faux compiles a good account about the Cimbri and their Historical kinship to the Kelts.
But keep in mind that Cimbri is a terminology (with its many etymologies) that occurs throughout Europe and throughout the entire range of Indo-Europeans.
Diodorus Siculus - 1st cen. BC [ref. to Celts/Gauls]
"They are so noted for a fierce and warlike people, that some have thought them to be those that antiently overran all Asia, and were then called Cimerians, and who are now (through length of time) with a little alteration, called Cimbrians"
Cambrian Institute - The Cambrian Journal (1862)
"The Gomeridae of Gaul assumed the name of Kelts, or Galatai ; at a period when those of Britain, Germany, and Italy, adhered to the patriarchal one, Cimbri, Umbri, Cymry;"
You find Cimbric etymologies throughout Indo-European Europe in: UMBRI (Italy); AMBROnes (Helveti), sicAMBRI (Germanic), cYMRI (Wales), cIMBRI (Jutland) etc.
Cambridge University - Cambridge Essays (1856)
"Moreover, Humber and Umbro connect themselves with the Gaelic amhainn or amhna, 'a river;' and supposing that the words Cambrian, Cumbrian, Cymru (which the Welsh divide as Cy-bru, Cym-bru, or Cyn-bru), Cimbri, Cimmerii bear the same relation to the words Humber, Umbro, &c,"
Whether the Jutland Cimbri were Keltic or Teutonic is a strenuous question, depending on the def. of Keltic and the knowledge of the Cimbri, but Dr. Faux compiles a great account. The Cimbri were definitely archaic Indo-Europeans akin to both.
David Faux - (found the study)
http://www.davidkfaux.org/Cimbri-Chronology.pdf
The Cimbri of Alpine Venetia are however not related to the Jutland Cimbri, they are the descendants of Bavarian peasants that migrated to that region in the Middle ages. Their name Zimberer (timberers) indicates their craft of Carpentry, and thats where their name originates. However, it is to note, that Strabo already recorded a tribe known as Symbri (sYMBRI) north of the Veneti as early as the 1st cen. AD.
Henry Malden - History of Rome (1830)
"It is possible however that the Symbri, whom Strabo mentions as a small community above the Veneti.H may have been a tribe detached from the Umbrians, or left behind in the course of national migration."
Zimberer of Alpine Venetia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gl5gf-fvsc
After the German linguist Wolfram Euler ("Sprache und Herkunft der Germanen"), the Cimbri can very well have been Germanic, rather than Celtic. Specifically if one assumes that the Proto-Germanic consonant shift (Grimm's Law) only occured in the 1st century BC. Also, with all respect for the love of all things Celtic, there is no evidence that there ever was a Celtic presence (linguistically speaking) on the Jutland peninsula.
The connection of Cimbri and Cimmerians is phonologically implausible because it requires the development *b > *m (the reverse is plausible, but obviously the Cimmerians are the older name).
The name "Cymru" is also unrelated, it derives from earlier *Com-brogi".
The Zimbern are completely unrelated with the Cimbri. As you wrote yourself, the name "Zimbern" derives from earlier 'timber' (High German consonant shift!). In my opionion the Zimbern are just Bavarians who migrated across the Alps during the Medieval Ages. The Cimbri/Zimbern connection is, from the perspective of the sounds involved, *k in "Cimbri" vs. ancestral *t in Zimbern totally implausible.
After the German linguist Wolfram Euler ("Sprache und Herkunft der Germanen"), the Cimbri can very well have been Germanic, rather than Celtic. Specifically if one assumes that the Proto-Germanic consonant shift (Grimm's Law) only occured in the 1st century BC. Also, with all respect for the love of all things Celtic, there is no evidence that there ever was a Celtic presence (linguistically speaking) on the Jutland peninsula.
The connection of Cimbri and Cimmerians is phonologically implausible because it requires the development *b > *m (the reverse is plausible, but obviously the Cimmerians are the older name).
The name "Cymru" is also unrelated, it derives from earlier *Com-brogi".
The Zimbern are completely unrelated with the Cimbri. As you wrote yourself, the name "Zimbern" derives from earlier 'timber' (High German consonant shift!). In my opionion the Zimbern are just Bavarians who migrated across the Alps during the Medieval Ages. The Cimbri/Zimbern connection is, from the perspective of the sounds involved, *k in "Cimbri" vs. ancestral *t in Zimbern totally implausible.
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