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how yes no 3
06-04-13, 14:16
1) Pliny the Elder - Historia Naturalis

Scirii and Hirri live next to Venedi and Sarmatians... in fact, there is a note that Parisot believes that they are tribes of Slavic Venedi

"This gulf, which has the name of the 'Codanian,' is filled with islands; the most famous among which is Scandinavia...
it is generally supposed that the island of Eningia20 is of not less magnitude.
Some writers state that these regions,as far as the river Vistula, are inhabited by the Sarmati, theVenedi21, the Sciri, and the Hirri22, and that there is a gulf there known by the name of Cylipenus23, at the mouth of which is the island of Latris, after which comes another gulf, that of Lagnus,which borders on the Cimbri.


20 By Eningia Hardouin thinks that thecountry of modern Finland is meant.

21 Parisot is of opinion that theVenedi, also called Vinidæ and Vindili, were of Sclavish origin,and situate on the shores of the Baltic. He remarks that this people,in the fifth century, founded in Pomerania, when quitted by the Goths, a kingdom, the chiefs of which styled themselves the Konjucsof Vinland. Their name is also to be found in Venden, a Russian town in the government of Riga, in Windenburg in Courland, and in Wendenin the circle of the Grand Duchy of Mecklenburg Schwerin.

22 Parisot remarks that these two peoples were probably only tribes of the Venedi."

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0137:book=4:chapter= 27&highlight=sciri



it is suggested that Scirii and Hirri are tribes of Sclavish Venedi




2) De Administrando imperio - the only historic source talking about settling of Serbs and Croats on Balkan


http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=de+administrando+imperio&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vA5gUZftE9Cr0AWp84DgBw&redir_esc=y


"The Serbs are descended from the unbaptized Serbs, also called 'white', who live beyond Turkeyin a place called by them Boiki, where their neighbour is Francia, as is also Great Croatia, the unbaptized, also called 'white': in this place, then, these Serbs also originally dwelt. "


note in time of writing "Turkey"is land of Turkic Avars - Hungary of modern days
Boiki is Bohemia, land of Boii


both Serbs and Croats were called "white"...
celtic *windo = white

point is they were called "Venedi" and writer used its Celtic meaning being "white"... those Serbs and Croats were called Venedi as they were part of Venedi tribes....with respect to 1) where notable tribes of Sclavisch Venedi are Scirii and Hirri, I think that Serbs and Croats might have been known in their early history as Scirii and Hirri


in fact just north of Boiki is east Germany area where even today small Slavic ethnic minority cariesname of Lusatians/Sorbs/Wends...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs

3) genetic argument

Scirii and Hirri are also believed to have been east Germanic tribes... this may be about their origin ....note that Serbs and Croats are not R1a dominant like other Slavic people but I2a dominant... while Germanic people are characterized by related I1 and I2b clades

in fact I2a-Dinaric South is very typical of Serbs and to some extent Croats...it is very young clade which allows us to relate it to historic movements of tribes...
if we look map of I2a-Dinaric south
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap



besides Serb settled areas we can notice:
a) island in Bohemia or Boiki
we know that Serbs came from there
but we also know they came to therefrom somewhere more to the east....
b) island in south Poland extending to central Ukraine (Galicia) – lower Vistula
c) island in north east Poland(Baltic) – upper Vistula
d) two isolated spots on north shoresof Asia minor
e) set of isolated spots in Germany –from Zurich to Hamburg

now let us look at movements of Scirii




originated somewhere in Germany (perhaps Bavaria – Munich to Zurich area and moved to north as trend marked as e) suggests... note that De Administrando imperio mentions that Serbs also originally dwellt in Bohemia...
lived in Baltic area in upper Vistula from 300 BC to 150 AD
http://ethnohistory.verbix.com/Sciri/#locref7
this is exactly I2a-Din south area marked with c) above
located in Galicia (lower Vistula) from 150 AD till 409 AD, which exactly matches the island of I2a-Dinaric marked as b) above
http://ethnohistory.verbix.com/Sciri/#locref7
captured Scirii were settled by Byzantium on sea coasts of Asia minor (Bythinia), where whole settlements of them existed
http://books.google.nl/books?id=MSPttWbUPZsC&pg=PA516&dq=Sciri+germanic&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gTc6UZqGGOTX7AbYhoGYCA&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBjge#v=onepage&q=Sciri%20germanic&f=false
this relates to isolated spots on coasts of Asia minor marked above as d)...
last record of Scirii is that they were settled in east Slovakia where they are recorded to live from 409AD to 450 AD... now with arrival of Avars all tribes moved a bit away from Avars...for Scirii this must have meant moving to west which clearly brings them to Bohemia
http://ethnohistory.verbix.com/Sciri/#locref7



'

Eldritch
06-04-13, 15:08
A little bit OT but why do you group Serbs and Croats together, from what i've seen they have a different distribution of Haplogroups, not that different but still noticeabe nonetheless?

Yetos
06-04-13, 18:08
I see How yes no has returned,
nice to have you back,
I missed you nomatter the 'old or odd' theories that i have read,

how yes no 3
06-04-13, 19:11
A little bit OT but why do you group Serbs and Croats together, from what i've seen they have a different distribution of Haplogroups, not that different but still noticeabe nonetheless?

data puts them together not me....

Scirii and Hirri are mentioned related as east germanic tribes and also as related Slavic Wendish tribes (see above)
btw. i suspect Hirri are same people as Heruli...Heruli are paired with Scirii in the same way as Hirri earlier in the history... and one of the last known big settlements of Heruli is Slovakia in 451-508 AD from where Croats one century later emerge... note that arrival to Slovakia is 451 AD while Scirii are last mentioned in Slovakia in 450 AD ...these were times in which Attila the Hun was living his last years (he died in 453 AD) plundering central Europe....logically Scirii moved further from Hun madness to west to Bohemia....
century after Scirii and Heruli settle Bohemia and Slovakia we see from these places Slavic Serbs (Srbi) and Croats (Hrvati) appear...

Serbs and Croats are recorded to move to Balkan from Wendish areas, in same time, from adjacent teritories to adjascent teritories, and with note that they were both called "white" which I relate to Celtic "Wendo" in old teritories...

today Serbs and Croats speak practically same language...

and genetic differences are not that big....



I1 | I2*+I2a | I2b | R1a | R1b | G | J2 | J* + J1 | E1b1b | T | Q | N | H | L
Bosnia* 2,5 | 50 | 0.5 | 13.5 | 4 | 2 | 6 | 1 | 14.5 | 2.5 | 0 | 0 | |
Croatia* 5.5 | 37 | 1 | 24 | 8.5 | 2.5 | 6 | 1 | 10 | 0.5 | 1 | 0.5 | |
Serbia* 6.5 | 34.5 | 0.5 | 15 | 7 | 1.5 | 6.5 | 0.5 | 20.5 | 3 | 1 | 2 | |
Croatia** 5.8 | 37.7 | <1 | 22.1 | 7.9 | 2.7 | ~6 | 1 | 10.6 | <1 | <1 | <1 | 1.8 | <1
Serbia** 7.8 | 38.5 | 1.7 | 14.5 | 4.5 | 2.2 | 5 | 0.6 | 17.3 | 0 | 1.7 | 3.3 | 2.2 | 0.6

Bosnia* - Maciamo's table
Serbia* Maciamo's data made by putting together data from several studies
Serbia** (Mirabal et al, 2010) -only study for Serbia on moderately large number of samples (179) and only study not done by Croats... it doesnot show any haplogroup K (it seems interpreted partly as T by Maciamo) as previous studies of Croatian scientists show for Serbs ....


Croatia** is official data from Croatian sources
http://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Croatian-national-reference-Y-STR-haplotype-database_.-Molecular-biology-reports-2012.pdf
it includes all so far collected samples


Croatia* is from Maciamo's table and it shows slightly different values.
My guess is that he was looking the data from the source above as completely new data, so he was probably
recalculating by adding, while old samples are already included in the data from Croatian source above...




in any case difference between Croats and Serbs seems to be more or less:
10% E1b1b more for Serbs
10% R1a more for Croats

E1b1b in Serbs is higher as it is dominant in the previous substratum in area of Serbia (Dardanians and Thracians)
R1a in Croats could be from previous people (Panonians were proto-Slavic in my opinion) but also about higher original Slavic component, and also because Hirri/Heruli were probably originally R1a people as I2a-Din is not found in Scandinavia.....

perhaps you think that Croats have more haplogroup I than Serbs...as you can see in average percentages of haplogroup I for Croatia and Serbia are roughly the same....

truth is that Croats from Herzegovina and south Croatia according to Croat studies do have very high I2a dinaric
but according to "De Administrando imperio" these areas are settled by people called Narentanes who are unbaptized Serbs....

from http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=de+administrando+imperio&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yFRgUZzZCMauPKOrAQ&redir_esc=y

"36. of Pagani also called Arentani, and the country they now dwell in" page 165
"These same Pagani are descended from unbaptized Serbs....This country also was enslaved by Avars and made desolate......."Pagani" are so called because they didnot accept christianity when all the Serbs were baptized....."

5849

Pagania/(N)arentania is the part of Croatia (and Bosnia & Herzegovina) that is by far most dominant in I2a Dinaric, which is not so much the case for other parts of Croatia, especially for north one...



I see How yes no has returned,
nice to have you back,
I missed you nomatter the 'old or odd' theories that i have read,

thank you...
my "odd" theories still make sense to me...
its difficult to explain/introduce them properly...

zanipolo
06-04-13, 19:51
data puts them together not me....

Scirii and Hirri are mentioned related as east germanic tribes and also as related Slavic Wendish tribes (see above)
btw. i suspect Hirri are same people as Heruli...Heruli are paired with Scirii in the same way as Hirri earlier in the history... and last known position of Heruli is east Slovakia from where Croats later emerge...

Serbs and Croats are recorded to move to Balkan from Wendish areas, in same time, from adjacent teritories to adjascent teritories, and with note that they were both called "white" which I relate to Celtic "Wendo" in old teritories...

today Serbs and Croats speak practically same language...

and genetic differences are not that big....



I1 | I2*+I2a | I2b | R1a | R1b | G | J2 | J* + J1 | E1b1b | T | Q | N | H | L
Bosnia* 2,5 | 50 | 0.5 | 13.5 | 4 | 2 | 6 | 1 | 14.5 | 2.5 | 0 | 0 | |
Croatia* 5.5 | 37 | 1 | 24 | 8.5 | 2.5 | 6 | 1 | 10 | 0.5 | 1 | 0.5 | |
Serbia* 6.5 | 34.5 | 0.5 | 15 | 7 | 1.5 | 6.5 | 0.5 | 20.5 | 3 | 1 | 2 | |
Croatia** 5.8 | 37.7 | <1 | 22.1 | 7.9 | 2.7 | ~6 | 1 | 10.6 | <1 | <1 | <1 | 1.8 | <1
Serbia** 7.8 | 38.5 | 1.7 | 14.5 | 4.5 | 2.2 | 5 | 0.6 | 17.3 | 0 | 1.7 | 3.3 | 2.2 | 0.6

Bosnia* - Maciamo's table
Serbia* Maciamo's data made by putting together data from several studies
Serbia** (Mirabal et al, 2010) -only study for Serbia on moderately large number of samples (179) and only study not done by Croats... it doesnot show any haplogroup K (it seems interpreted partly as T by Maciamo) as previous studies of Croatian scientists show for Serbs ....


Croatia** is official data from Croatian sources
http://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Croatian-national-reference-Y-STR-haplotype-database_.-Molecular-biology-reports-2012.pdf
it includes all so far collected samples


Croatia* is from Maciamo's table and it shows slightly different values.
My guess is that he was looking the data from the source above as completely new data, so he was probably
recalculating by adding, while old samples are already included in the data from Croatian source above...




in any case difference between Croats and Serbs seems to be more or less:
10% E1b1b more for Serbs
10% R1a more for Croats

E1b1b in Serbs is higher as it is dominant in the previous substratum in area of Serbia (Dardanians and Thracians)
R1a in Croats could be from previous people (Panonians were proto-Slavic in my opinion) but also about higher original Slavic component, and also because Hirri/Heruli were probably originally R1a people as I2a-Din is not found in Scandinavia.....

perhaps you think that Croats have more haplogroup I than Serbs...as you can see in average percentages of haplogroup I for Croatia and Serbia are roughly the same....

truth is that Croats from Herzegovina and south Croatia according to Croat studies do have very high I2a dinaric
but according to "De Administrando imperio" these areas are settled by people called Narentanes who are unbaptized Serbs....

from http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=de+administrando+imperio&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yFRgUZzZCMauPKOrAQ&redir_esc=y

"36. of Pagani also called Arentani, and the country they now dwell in" page 165
"These same Pagani are descended from unbaptized Serbs....This country also was enslaved by Avars and made desolate......."Pagani" are so called because they didnot accept christianity when all the Serbs were baptized....."

5849

Pagania/(N)arentania is the part of Croatia (and Bosnia & Herzegovina) that is by far most dominant in I2a Dinaric, which is not so much the case for other parts of Croatia, especially for north one...




thank you...
my "odd" theories still make sense to me...
its difficult to explain/introduce them properly...


hi

This Hirri and Scrii has been explained already. Apart from the Sarmatians you mentioned all the others are baltic tribes and peoples.

Heruli were the forefathers of modern Samogitians. In prehistoric times they were called
"Hirri" or "Giriai", which means "Forest Dwellers" (the Prusso-Lithuanic word "giria" means "forest"). The earliest record about the "Hirri" we find in the writings of Plinius. Plinius stated that the territory extending from the Vistula river, as far as Eningia (probably he meant Feningia = Finland), is inhabited by the following nations: the Vends (the inhabitants along the shore of Windau river), the Scirri (Courlanders) and the Hirri. ---- "Nec minor opinione Eningia. Quidam haec habitari ad Vistulam a Sarmatis, Venedis, Sciris, Hirris, tradunt". --
--- Plinius, IV. 27. Later,

the Hirri were known as Hirruli or Heruli. Most of the scholars agree that in ancient times they
lived near the Baltic Sea.

Hirri history is, they left the samogitia shores , settled in southern Sweden, then moved to Pomerania..etc etc

The Scirri are courlands who resided north of the hirri in samogitia and relocated to pomerania, then we also have a third people to consider ...the lemovii

on the Dubysa river there is a town named Eiriogala, which in ancient times was called Geriogala , and this town was the most ancient capital of Samogitia. Near Eiriogala there is another town called Girukalnis, which means "The Hill of the Hirri". Also there is a village called Vad-giris, which means "The Seat of the Chief of the Hirri"

The Herulian language is very similar to the Samogitian dialect; it also resembles the Courish dialect. This fact was revealed to us by an important document namely the "Lord's Prayer" which was written in the language of Heruli. Huppel, the well known scholar published this Herulian "Lord's Prayer" which he found amongst the letters of Pritzbuer, the Pastor of Marienburg, where it was stated that a certain priest by the name of Frank was the author of Mecklemburg's Chronicles of the Fifth Century, and in those Chronicles he wrote down the "Lord's Prayer" in the native (Herulian) tongue. ---- Vide: Took, Histoire de Russie trad. de l'Angla. p. M. S. Paris 1801, T. H, p. 259-260, Another chronicler, named Wolffgang Lazius, also published the Herulian "Lord's Prayer" in "De gentium migrationibus, Libri XII, Basileae, A.D. 1557". p. 789. Here he states that even in the Sixteenth Century some inhabitants around Mecklemburg still spoke that language. Lazius was the official chronicler of Ferdinand, the king of The Holy Roman Empire, and he was a man
of intelligence, therefore historians have confidence in him. Herulian "Lord's Prayer".
1. HERULIAN: ---TABES MUS, KAS TU ES EKSZAN

2. Samogitian: ---Teivs mus, kors tu es's auksta

3. Lithuanian: ---Teve musu, kurs tu esi aukstai

4. English:---Father our who art high


read link below, maps have english legend and bottom of link is english.......it states the people mentioned are baltic peopl who had flat grave burial systems..........then buy the rest of the English version
http://www.academia.edu/1832311/_._._Les_fleuves_de_la_partie_orientale_du_bassin_ de_la_Baltique_et_les_geographes_antiques._Encore_ une_fois_a_propos_des_fleuves_de_Turuntus_et_de_He sinus_._In_n_16_2010_p._123-134

zanipolo
06-04-13, 20:18
I see How yes no has returned,
nice to have you back,
I missed you nomatter the 'old or odd' theories that i have read,


The main problem with yes and no is that he does not want to accept that the serbians are not "pure Slavic" people , but hates the thought they became Slavic by language. He keeps hiding the fact that even the Slavic nobility documents from 1000 AD to the present has association with the Thracian triballi people. They still use the Triballi boar in Serbian rights today.
its a pity for one to be too nationalistic and be present in a forum like this.

In conclusion, all genetic scholars basically conclude that the slavs began around the south east corner of Poland and the north east corner of Moldovia

how yes no 3
06-04-13, 20:59
The main problem with yes and no is that he does not want to accept that the serbians are not "pure Slavic" people , but hates the thought they became Slavic by language.

I don't hate the thought...there are reasons I believe that PIE language transfer went other way around from Serbs to other Slavic people....

e.g. Dalmil's chronicle - key ancient source of Czechs about their history

http://web.archive.org/web/20070804091914/http://people.fsv.cvut.cz/~gagan/jag/litera/dalimil.htm


"V srbskem jazyku jest zeme, // in serbian language there is country
jiez Charvatci jest jme. // whose name is Croatia
V tej zemi biese lech, // in that country there was Lech (Lechs = Poles)
jemuz jme biese Cech. " //whose name was Czech

so, the language is Serbian, in one part of area of that language there is Croatia as a state and in it are Poles and among them forefather of Czech people....

I will here remind you of Bavarian geographer saying that state of Zeruiani is so big that all Slavs come from it

and on statement of Seneca that Serians live along Danube, also rule over scattered Scytians in Europe, live in Asian Sarmatia unguarded from Sarmatians, and also in Asia...
Sclaveni = Sloveni
Scordisci = Serdi+isci
Scirii/Scirians = Serians = Zeruiani
Serians along Danube map to Scordisci as Russian primary chronicle states that prior to Roman empire expansion some south Slavs and explicitly Serbs lived in area of Danube on locations from Hungary to Bulgaria.....
Serians rulling over scattered Scythinas may be Scirii
Serians living among Sarmatians are Siraces (also known as Serboi), who were later turkicized becomming Sabirs..
remaints of Serians from area of Seres in Asia north of Tibet who were known for making silk, can still be identified by customs and names...



He keeps hiding the fact that even the Slavic nobility documents from 1000 AD to the present has association with the Thracian triballi people. They still use the Triballi boar in Serbian rights today.
I am not hiding anything... as far as I know there are no Slavic nobility documents from year 1000 AD
there is no link of Serbs to Triballi except in some Byzantine history sources where the usage of names such as Triballi and Moesians for Serbs seems to be pejorative and based only on living in the same location.... i remember reading that Byzantine historians did misuse names of other nations in same way....

while it is possible that Serbs origin from Thracians, I do not think its likely

because history records their settlement from Bohemia and escape routes from Thrace would go to Black sea or to Greece but not to Bohemia...

and because genetic data points in same direction... based on described pattern of I2a Dinaric south I accept arrival from Bohemia and to Bohemia from south Poland and to south Poland from northeast Poland.... point of this thread is that this seems to be the root of Scirii, who are said together with Hirri to be part of Slavic Wends....which agrees with account in De Administrando Imperio about both Serbs and Croats carrying name "white" (*Wendo) and comming to Balkan from newly established Wendish areas.....

of course part of modern Serbs origin from previous settlers such as Scordisci, Thracians, Dardanians.... but we are speaking hear about origin based on ethnic group that carries its identity not on ethnic groups that are assimilated...



its a pity for one to be too nationalistic and be present in a forum like this.

thank you for wishing me welcome back in your way...
:)

its a pity your posts are typically full of statements (opinions and judgements and "historical" data) that do not have sound basis in facts...

I never was nationalistic...
nationalistic = hating other people based on their nationatility

zanipolo
06-04-13, 22:33
I don't hate the thought...there are reasons I believe that PIE language transfer went other way around from Serbs to other Slavic people....

e.g. Dalmil's chronicle - key ancient source of Czechs about their history

http://web.archive.org/web/20070804091914/http://people.fsv.cvut.cz/~gagan/jag/litera/dalimil.htm


"V srbskem jazyku jest zeme, // in serbian language there is country
jiez Charvatci jest jme. // whose name is Croatia
V tej zemi biese lech, // in that country there was Lech (Lechs = Poles)
jemuz jme biese Cech. " //whose name was Czech

so, the language is Serbian, in one part of area of that language there is Croatia as a state and in it are Poles and among them forefather of Czech people....

I will here remind you of Bavarian geographer saying that state of Zeruiani is so big that all Slavs come from it

and on statement of Seneca that Serians live along Danube, also rule over scattered Scytians in Europe, live in Asian Sarmatia unguarded from Sarmatians, and also in Asia...
Sclaveni = Sloveni
Scordisci = Serdi+isci
Scirii/Scirians = Serians = Zeruiani
Serians along Danube map to Scordisci as Russian primary chronicle states that prior to Roman empire expansion some south Slavs and explicitly Serbs lived in area of Danube on locations from Hungary to Bulgaria.....
Serians rulling over scattered Scythinas may be Scirii
Serians living among Sarmatians are Siraces (also known as Serboi), who were later turkicized becomming Sabirs..
remaints of Serians from area of Seres in Asia north of Tibet who were known for making silk, can still be identified by customs and names...



I am not hiding anything... as far as I know there are no Slavic nobility documents from year 1000 AD
there is no link of Serbs to Triballi except in some Byzantine history sources where the usage of names such as Triballi and Moesians for Serbs seems to be pejorative and based only on living in the same location.... i remember reading that Byzantine historians did misuse names of other nations in same way....

while it is possible that Serbs origin from Thracians, I do not think its likely

because history records their settlement from Bohemia and escape routes from Thrace would go to Black sea or to Greece but not to Bohemia...

and because genetic data points in same direction... based on described pattern of I2a Dinaric south I accept arrival from Bohemia and to Bohemia from south Poland and to south Poland from northeast Poland.... point of this thread is that this seems to be the root of Scirii, who are said together with Hirri to be part of Slavic Wends....which agrees with account in De Administrando Imperio about both Serbs and Croats carrying name "white" (*Wendo) and comming to Balkan from newly established Wendish areas.....

of course part of modern Serbs origin from previous settlers such as Scordisci, Thracians, Dardanians.... but we are speaking hear about origin based on ethnic group that carries its identity not on ethnic groups that are assimilated...


thank you for wishing me welcome back in your way...
:)

its a pity your posts are typically full of statements (opinions and judgements and "historical" data) that do not have sound basis in facts...

I never was nationalistic...
nationalistic = hating other people based on their nationatility

Read my post again...I said hi

question - Why is it that the slavic people want to obliterate all baltic people history

we know the Baltic people where sailing around the Baltic sea 1000 years before the slavs even emerged.
I ask this on other forums and the slavs response is a giggle ....never a denial

Anyway the ancient tests for dna in Poland, Lithuania and Germany is being done and slowly revealing the truth...and that truth is that the slavs have minor ethnic areas of creation and not the lies of associating language to ethnics as they think.

how yes no 3
06-04-13, 23:59
Read my post again...I said hi

question - Why is it that the slavic people want to obliterate all baltic people history

we know the Baltic people where sailing around the Baltic sea 1000 years before the slavs even emerged.
I ask this on other forums and the slavs response is a giggle ....never a denial


Scirii are not really in Baltic countries area on any of the maps that I have seen, but in what would today be northeast Poland... and in fact exactly where island of I2a Dinaric south is in north
( http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap )

e.g. look at Euratlas http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/100/entity_3837.html
or ethnohistory http://ethnohistory.verbix.com/Sciri/#locref7 (press + sign in front of descriptions in table in order to see the position on map)





Anyway the ancient tests for dna in Poland, Lithuania and Germany is being done and slowly revealing the truth...and that truth is that the slavs have minor ethnic areas of creation and not the lies of associating language to ethnics as they think.
let me giggle on this one...
did they reveal the truth?
or they didnot but you know it nevertheless? :)

zanipolo
07-04-13, 01:04
Scirii are not really in Baltic countries area on any of the maps that I have seen, but in what would today be northeast Poland... and in fact exactly where island of I2a Dinaric south is in north
( http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap )

e.g. look at Euratlas http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/100/entity_3837.html
or ethnohistory http://ethnohistory.verbix.com/Sciri/#locref7 (press + sign in front of descriptions in table in order to see the position on map)




let me giggle on this one...
did they reveal the truth?
or they didnot but you know it nevertheless? :)

from russian and polish sites

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/7906/russianslavmigration.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/10/russianslavmigration.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us



http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/8600/91e3b530cff8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

al-kochol
07-04-13, 02:12
I2 haplogroups are not Germanic. I2a2 could come to Balkan peninsula with Ostrogoths, who were not a Germanic tribe, contrary to what German nazi used to say.

Nobody1
07-04-13, 02:31
Ostrogoths, who were not a Germanic tribe, contrary to what German nazi used to say.

Is this Slavic?
http://languageserver.uni-graz.at/ls/img?id=000000004249
(you do know what this is? since you are so well informed about Goths/Ostrogoths)

Or are you accusing the Ostrogoths and Theoderich to be early middle-age visionaries of the NSDAP?

al-kochol
07-04-13, 02:35
Is this Slavic?
http://languageserver.uni-graz.at/ls/img?id=000000004249
(you do know what this is? since you are so well informed about Goths/Ostrogoths)

Or are you accusing the Ostrogoths and Theoderich to be early middle-age visionaries of the NSDAP?
This is Gothic, the language of "Swedish" Goths. Ostrogoths were not Goths. They spoke different language. Use your logic, not Drang Nach Osten propaganda.

Nobody1
07-04-13, 02:38
This is Gothic, the language of "Swedish" Goths. Ostrogoths were not Goths. They spoke different language. Use your logic, not Drang Nach Osten propaganda.

Are you a bit handicapped in reading? or are you absolutely clueless as to what i posted?
This is Ostrogothic, 6th cen. AD Codex Argenteus [Ravenna, N. Italy] Vaterunser prayer.

Encyclopaedia Britannica Vol.16
The modern German resembles the Gothic Gospels more than the present Danish, Norwegian, or Swedish;

al-kochol
07-04-13, 02:49
Ostrogoths could not speak Gothic language while inhabiting territory of today's Ukraine and Belarus simply because Gothic language would be totally useless there. If Ostrogoths were Goths, you would find today some I2 in Sweden.

Nobody1
07-04-13, 02:57
Ostrogoths could not speak Gothic language while inhabiting territory of today's Ukraine and Belarus simply because Gothic language would be totally useless there.

This is a trick question right? But what exactly is going through your head when you make statements like that?
your name would be much funnier if it wouldnt reflect your delusional state of mind.


If Ostrogoths were Goths, you would find today some I2 in Sweden.

Yes, but only if one enters your realm of Genetic fantasy.

al-kochol
07-04-13, 03:00
This is a trick question right? But what exactly is going through your head when you make statements like that?
your name would be much funnier if it wouldnt reflect your delusional state of mind.



Yes, but only if one enters your realm of Genetic fantasy.

Could you be more specific, if not scientific?

Nobody1
07-04-13, 03:06
Could you be more specific, if not scientific?

The honor is all yours, please be more specific about your Historic and Genetic reality.
Or was your impressive account of the Ostrogoths already the most detailed?

al-kochol
07-04-13, 03:19
The honor is all yours, please be more specific about your Historic and Genetic reality.
Or was your impressive account of the Ostrogoths already the most detailed?

My account of the Ostrogoths is available to you too, in the internet, assuming that you speak more languages than one.

zanipolo
07-04-13, 03:22
listen to gothic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkKrS5yOPFI

hope
07-04-13, 11:21
listen to gothic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkKrS5yOPFI

Good link, zanipolo.

how yes no 3
07-04-13, 13:01
Ostrogoths could not speak Gothic language while inhabiting territory of today's Ukraine and Belarus simply because Gothic language would be totally useless there. If Ostrogoths were Goths, you would find today some I2 in Sweden.

stop drinking so much :)

I2-Din is only I2 of east Europe including Ukraine where Goths dwelled for a while...
if Goths had I2a-Din, there would be some I2a-Din in areas of kingdoms of Visigoths and Ostrogoths... but there is none...

conclusion:

Visiigoths and Ostrogoths had no I2a-Din...


Scirii are different case all together.....
their germanic origin is questioned in number of historical accounts....there were speculations that they are Venedi, Sarmatians (or more precisely Alans from what I remember), even Turkic....

from what I have seen their historical movements and settlements correspond to locations of I2a-din South....
for me that is a good trace....

considering them Germanic may also be due to criteria that early roman historians had when defining germanic - for them those who live in houses were Germanic, those who live like nomads are Sarmatian...in fact, exactly with Venedi there was dillema where to put them as they lived in houses but resembled Sarmatians otherwise.....or this can be about distant tribal origin...tribal origins were important in distant times...

for me Scirii fit perfectly in the story about Zeruiani whose state is so big that all Slavs come from it...and Serians who rule over scattered Scythians...

also Dalmil's chronicle account suggests that Slavic people have received the language from Serbs.... because it says first Czech is born among Poles in Croatia state that is part of Serbian language area....
it doesnot say Poles or Croats who are Serbs, but that in Serbian language there is land Croatia in which also Poles live....

so, in my opinion Serians (Scirians/Scirii) transfer their language to Scythians they rule over... and that is origin of Slavic languages and Slavic people.... as I show in thread "who are Slavs?" core and directions of early Slavic expansion seems to fairly well match expansion of I2a-dinaric (both north and south) and are not really traceable in R1a genetics....

now if Croatia would be a name of state in a aprt of serbian language area.... this suggests that state could be established by non-slavic rulling elite - it can be e.g. about Germanic tribe of Heruli rulling over part of proto-Slavic people who have previously mixed with Scirii/Serians and adopted language of Serians/Scirii but are aware that they are not Serians... how did they call themselves? perhaps Venedi?

in light of this, more R1a in modern Croats than in Serbs can have two origins: 1) more assimilation of people who are Serians by language and not by origin like e.g. Poles, 2) Heruli, considering proposed origin in south of Scandinavia, might be originally not I2a-Din but germanic R1a rulling ellite who have obtained I2a-Din by rulling over real Serians and Serians by language ... e.g. even today most I2a-Dinaric areas in Croatia are those whose people (no population replacement happened in south Croatia and west Herzegovina) that early history source De Administrando imperio records as Serbs......similar could have happened many times in past as it seems clear that two tribes have travelled in pair....

Goga
07-04-13, 14:16
Germanic tribes existed before Slavic tribes! Ancient Germanic tribes = R1b + I1 + R1a. With all due respect but Slavic peoples don't have any (ancient) history at all. According to me, people in Eastern Europe started unifying with each other and started to share common region, culture and language with each other after I2a +R1a got mixed with each other. Slavic peoples = I2a + R1a. Germanic peoples R1b + I1 + R1a.

Eldritch
07-04-13, 14:21
Germanic tribes existed before Slavic tribes! Ancient Germanic tribes = R1b + I1 + R1a. With all due respect but Slavic peoples don't have any (ancient) history at all. According to me, people in Eastern Europe started unifying with each other and started to share common region, culture and language with each other after I2a +R1a got mixed with each other. Slavic peoples = I2a + R1a. Germanic peoples R1b + I1 + R1a.
What about I2b?

Goga
07-04-13, 14:31
What about I2b?It's more 'northwest' than 'southeast' European right? According to me I2b coexisted together with I1. I2b is from West Germany, native to that region.

how yes no 3
07-04-13, 14:57
some arguments about disputed origin of Scirii taken from explanation added to Tacitus book Germania

http://books.google.nl/books?id=M1cOAAAAQAAJ&dq=scirii%20alans%20germanic%20turkic&pg=RA1-PR97#v=onepage&q=scirii%20alans%20germanic%20turkic&f=false


1) Olbian inscription mentions Scirii together with Galatai
2) Procopius joins them with Goths and Alans
3) Jordanes puts them among Alans...("Scirii et Satagarii and other Alans")
4) names of their two known leaders are Germanic, which may indicate germanic origin/influence or rulling elite
5) there were Sciri as far as Bavaria!!!
6) turcilingi tribe with tribal name suggesting turkic origin was either part of Scirii or closely related tribe.... which together with Aspar name of one tribal chefs in times of Hun domination, and weird idea that Alans are turkic is used as a basis for speculations that they are turkic...
7) Scirii have waged war against Goths relying on help from Sarmatians..

-----------------------------------------------------------
conclusion:

I think turcilingi = turkic speakers (turci + lingua) and is part of tribe used for communication with their turkic allies...
also Alans are iranian (sarmatian) tribe and not turkic....

two tribal chiefs with germanic names may be due to being somewhat subjugated or influenced culturally by Goths...it can be as well about distant germanic origin

germanic tribe is not likely to launch surprise attack on Goths and to rely on Sarmatians for help....

Jordanes is best source due to his origin and functions he did, and he place them among Alans....

origin from Sarmatians covers well all 7 statements above, while germanic or turkic origin cover well at most one or two...

however, Seneca states that they live among Sarmatians unguarded from them....
this indicates that they are not Sarmatians....

So, I believe Serians/Scirians/Scirii were race for itself and not part of germanic, sarmatian or turkic stock
i think Serians are original bearers of proto-Slavic language and of I2a-dinaric group...

ElHorsto
07-04-13, 22:05
some arguments about disputed origin of Scirii taken from explanation added to Tacitus book Germania

http://books.google.nl/books?id=M1cOAAAAQAAJ&dq=scirii%20alans%20germanic%20turkic&pg=RA1-PR97#v=onepage&q=scirii%20alans%20germanic%20turkic&f=false


1) Olbian inscription mentions Scirii together with Galatai
2) Procopius joins them with Goths and Alans
3) Jordanes puts them among Alans...("Scirii et Satagarii and other Alans")
4) names of their two known leaders are Germanic, which may indicate germanic origin/influence or rulling elite
5) there were Sciri as far as Bavaria!!!
6) turcilingi tribe with tribal name suggesting turkic origin was either part of Scirii or closely related tribe.... which together with Aspar name of one tribal chefs in times of Hun domination, and weird idea that Alans are turkic is used as a basis for speculations that they are turkic...
7) Scirii have waged war against Goths relying on help from Sarmatians..

-----------------------------------------------------------
conclusion:

I think turcilingi = turkic speakers (turci + lingua) and is part of tribe used for communication with their turkic allies...
also Alans are iranian (sarmatian) tribe and not turkic....

two tribal chiefs with germanic names may be due to being somewhat subjugated or influenced culturally by Goths...it can be as well about distant germanic origin

germanic tribe is not likely to launch surprise attack on Goths and to rely on Sarmatians for help....

Jordanes is best source due to his origin and functions he did, and he place them among Alans....

origin from Sarmatians covers well all 7 statements above, while germanic or turkic origin cover well at most one or two...

however, Seneca states that they live among Sarmatians unguarded from them....
this indicates that they are not Sarmatians....

So, I believe Serians/Scirians/Scirii were race for itself and not part of germanic, sarmatian or turkic stock
i think Serians are original bearers of proto-Slavic language and of I2a-dinaric group...

What role do you think the Antes played (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antes_people) ? For now I speculate that Slavs are of 80% baltic and 20% antic origin, whereas Antes are inanian speaking and genetically close to certain Caucasian tribes. Could it be that south slavs are more related to Antes, whereas northern slavs tend to be antizised (slavicised?) balts. The migration map of antes could perhaps fit I2-Din.
Thanks!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg/483px-Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg

nordicwarrior
08-04-13, 03:52
How Yes No... your ideas really make one think. I like that you source ancient writers directly. If you're correct, what reason would these tribes have had for travelling so far from their home territories?

al-kochol
08-04-13, 09:05
Germanic tribes existed before Slavic tribes! Ancient Germanic tribes = R1b + I1 + R1a. With all due respect but Slavic peoples don't have any (ancient) history at all. According to me, people in Eastern Europe started unifying with each other and started to share common region, culture and language with each other after I2a +R1a got mixed with each other. Slavic peoples = I2a + R1a. Germanic peoples R1b + I1 + R1a.

Bratko, you are wrong. Slavic (Scythian/Sarmatian) tribes are older. There were no Germanic tribes until Celts (R1b) admitted superiority of Goths (I1) coming from from Scandinavian peninsula and adopted their Gothic language, so R1b+I1 can be regarded as Germanic stamp. R1a is Slavic as it comes from the territory of Scythia and was acquired by Germans as a result of their march under the slogan Drang Nach Osten. East Germans (former Prussia) are carriers of R1a as they are germanised Slavs. I2a joined R1a predominantly in Balkans, as a result of the migration of Ostrogoths. You won't find much of I2a in Poland, as the Ostrogoths went South.

al-kochol
08-04-13, 09:12
stop drinking so much :)

....

Bratko, your theory is too complicated to be true. I am advising you to take a copter and fly over the jungle, in which you are at the moment. From a distance you will see the whole picture, not only single trees.

how yes no 3
08-04-13, 12:04
What role do you think the Antes played (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antes_people) ? For now I speculate that Slavs are of 80% baltic and 20% antic origin, whereas Antes are inanian speaking and genetically close to certain Caucasian tribes. Could it be that south slavs are more related to Antes, whereas northern slavs tend to be antizised (slavicised?) balts. The migration map of antes could perhaps fit I2-Din.
Thanks!

not sure yet...

according to De Administrando imperio, both Serbs and Croats came to Balkan from most west part of Slavic settlements where they were called "white", which probably meant they were part of Venedi... The rest of Venedi would be Poles and Czechs. Czechs according to Dalmil's chronicle origin from Poles. Sclaveni I would map to Slovenians and Slovakians. Antes would give Russians, Belorussians and Ukrainians....

unresolved question is the source of Slavic language... and role of I2a-din in making of Slavs..note that I2a-Din north is spread along all Slavic countries, while younger I2a-Din South is related to Serb settled areas (now and in Boiki or Bohemia) and elsewhere seems to map to earlier Scirii.....since Dalmil's chronicle puts Czechs origin among Poles who live in Croat state in serbian language, I suggest that Poles and Czechs come from Venedi, who have accepted language of Scirians or Serians. Part of Poles who spoke language of Serbs (or Slavic) were rulled by Heruli elite in area of Slovakia, Moravia and south Poland - this is white Croatia mentioned in De administrando imperio.....Heruli/Hirri elite has lost their language as they were minority...
how did Serbs impose their language on Venedi? Seneca speaks of Serians rule over scattered Scythians....
so in Seneca's time (1st century AD) Scirii were probably rulling over Venedi....



Antes tribal name and Venedi tribal name can both origin from same tribal name of Veneti... in fact Jordanes claims that Sclaveni and Antes are from the populous race of Venethi that is now dispersed over many tribes:


(33) In the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean. To the south dwell the Acatziri, a very brave tribe ignorant of agriculture, who subsist on their flocks and by hunting. (37) Farther away and above the Sea of Pontus are the abodes of the Bulgares, well known from the wrongs done to them by reason of our oppression.
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

from what I remember Antes are before Jordanes considered iranian Sarmatians...


genetically, Scirii would be dominantly I2a-Dinaric, with I2a-Dinaric South appearing only after they have lost direct influence over Venedi and gene flow from Scirii towards Venedi has stopped....

Venedi are mix of R1a-M458 (central european and western Slavic branches in http://www.r1a.org/3.htm#2) and eastern Carpatian (most distant common ancestor lived 2600±300 years) and western Carpatian R1a branch (most distant common ancestor lived 1975±450 years ago)

Antes are - related to eastern Carpatian R1a branch (most distant common ancestor lived 2600±300 years)

split of eastern and western Carpatian branches perhaps reflects split of Veneti after being pushed out from Asia Minor... part went to Adriatic coasts and central Europe (west branch originated in this part), part to north Black sea shores (east branch)

R1a-M458 is earlier substrate (prior to Veneti settlement) that I believe originally dwellt in Blakan under name Pelasgians (translated as field people or even sea people).... reason to believe this is that R1a-M458 is by far oldest in Serbia...in fact as old as parent branch is in India....

( most diversity of R1a1a* among Indo-Aryan and Dravidian speakers in India (coalescent time ~14 000 years before present)
(Underhill et al., 2010)

in Serbia R1a1a7-M458 diversity 14 KYA
R1a1a*(xM458) diversity - 11 KYA. )

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22310393?dopt=Abstract



majority of Pelasgians or field people is in my opinion after arrival of Greeks and Illyrians pushed to north and later appeared as Pannonians (or Pannonian plane people) who were (together with Scordisci) in my opinion the Danubian Slavs mentioned in Russian primary chronicle
and I see continuity of the tribal name in the name of Poles - which also means "field people"...

Scordisci were in my opinion Serians living around Danube mentioned by Seneca... they were Scirii with perhaps Celtic elite... and Celtic name ending -disci
I think they were I2a-Din north dominant...

eastern Eurasian branch of R1a is the one I relate to spread of "sea peoples" ("sea people" also moved via land, but name is in my opinion also related to Dogon/Dagon/Dajbog worship as Dogon is water/sea creature) and ancient big state of Serians..the state of Zeruiani that was so big that all Slavic people come from it......that state was in fact set of strategic settlements along trade routes for silk and spices....e.g. in Seres in north west China silk was produced.and in wider sense Seres was an arch from there to India over Pakistan and Avganistan areas.....

Serian is not about origin dominantly...it is about culture related to Dagon worship....

Karlovac rodoslov writes that all Serbs have in past worshiped Dagon
""All Serbs worshipped Dagon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagon). From Dagon the Dagonians and Dacians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacians) received their names; From Ser, all the Serbs."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlova%C4%8Dki_Rodoslov


Ser is wife of Dagon... from her comes tribal name Serians...

Dagon was worshiped by Israel tribe of Asher... and also in Syria...

I believe that this worship starts on Danube coasts with Vinca culture and is spread to middle east with "sea peoples" if not earlier.... Danube is also named Ishtar... both names are related to ancient river godess...



Dagan's wife was in some sources the goddess Shala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shala) (also named as wife of Adad and sometimes identified with Ninlil). In other texts, his wife isIshara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishara).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagon

Ishara was worshiped by Hurrians and Syrians (curious coincidence with Scirii and Hirri, isn't it?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishara
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishtar

it is goddess of war, love and magic...related to river...

in my opinion it is same goddess as mother/river goddess as indian and irish Danu (also known as Asura) and was in Slavic tribes transformed into Zorya ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorya ) while Dagon became Dajbog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dajbog)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Irish_goddess)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Asura)

nordicwarrior
08-04-13, 12:59
This white Serb/white Croat/white insert nationality here is repeated so frequently that it must mean something.

Could this tie into Merlin and his prediction of the Red side beating the White side in the British Isles? What if the Red represented haplogroup R (or more specifically R1b) and the White represented haplogroup I?

Kind of makes you ponder...

how yes no 3
08-04-13, 14:09
This white Serb/white Croat/white insert nationality here is repeated so frequently that it must mean something.
white is proposed to mean west as in iranic/steppes people sides of the world were represented with colors...
white= west, black = north, red = south, and not sure green or brown or yellow = east

Belarus = white (belo) + Russian

but I think in Slavic people it is related to Venedi...
as there is no mention of other colors except white


also, De administrando imperio says that both Serbs and Croat in their states of white Croatia and white Serbia were also known as "white"

so I believe that Venedi may have be interpreted as Celtic *wendo = white
Scirii and Hirri were by some counted in tribes of Venedi
and Belarus may be Venedi Russians



Could this tie into Merlin and his prediction of the Red side beating the White side in the British Isles? What if the Red represented haplogroup R (or more specifically R1b) and the White represented haplogroup I?

Kind of makes you ponder...
never heard of this prophecy..but in Merlin's times genetic picture of UK was pretty much the same as now...
white and red is division in Russia between royalist and communist armies in civil war that started in year 1917...
so maybe prophecy means that in some future UK will adopt some kind of communism...

how yes no 3
08-04-13, 14:23
eastern Eurasian branch of R1a is the one I relate to spread of "sea peoples" ("sea people" also moved via land, but name is in my opinion also related to Dogon/Dagon/Dajbog worship as Dogon is water/sea creature) and ancient big state of Serians..the state of Zeruiani that was so big that all Slavic people come from it......that state was in fact set of strategic settlements along trade routes for silk and spices....e.g. in Seres in north west China silk was produced.and in wider sense Seres was an arch from there to India over Pakistan and Avganistan areas.....
Sherdana is name double related to Ser(Istar,Ishar) / Danu
in my reconstruction they start conquest from Balkan and Black sea shores...

puzzling thought related to this is that ancient DNA of Thrace is closest to the one of Sardinians...

Sherdana and other sea peoples have in my opinion spread to middle eastern Eurasian branch of R1a and some I2a that is predating I2a Dinaric....
http://www.r1a.org/3.htm#11

those sea peoples might have spread PIE languages all the way to India... it can be noticed that they tend to spread on sea coasts and on strategic positions of trade routes...

I think tribal name of Kurds is derived from Sherdana, and name of their biggest tribe Sorani is about Serians which is as I said about cultural issue related in ancient times to worship of Dogon and his wife Ser
also some tribes of Israel in my opinion origin from sea peoples conquest....


again in Strabo's time for areas of Cappadocia settled now with Kurds he says both tribes belong to white Syrians where Syrians for him is same as Assyrians..

as I said Syrians is beyond origin and langage...it was religious term

note that Veneti were kicked from north most part of Asia minor (Paphlagonia - south shores of Black sea) because they participated in a conquest that I tend to identify with "sea peoples" movement because it falls into same time frame...

so white Syrians may be Veneti Syrians...

I think that Veneti spoke language closest to the one of Balts, and this language seems to be closest to the PIE of all European languages...

later Venedi of central and east Europe shifted to Slavic under the influence of Danubian Slavs who settled among them and were merged in west Slavs of today....

Dagon is "fish-god" - sea/water deity
his followers are logically "sea peoples"



R1a-M458 is earlier substrate (prior to Veneti settlement) that I believe originally dwellt in Blakan under name Pelasgians (translated as field people or even sea people).... reason to believe this is that R1a-M458 is by far oldest in Serbia...in fact as old as parent branch is in India....

( most diversity of R1a1a* among Indo-Aryan and Dravidian speakers in India (coalescent time ~14 000 years before present)
(Underhill et al., 2010)

in Serbia R1a1a7-M458 diversity 14 KYA
R1a1a*(xM458) diversity - 11 KYA. )

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22310393?doptbstract (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22310393?dopt=Abstract)

majority of Pelasgians or field people is in my opinion after arrival of Greeks and Illyrians pushed to north and later appeared as Pannonians (or Pannonian plane people) who were (together with Scordisci) in my opinion the Danubian Slavs mentioned in Russian primary chronicle
and I see continuity of the tribal name in the name of Poles - which also means "field people"...

Scordisci were in my opinion Serians living around Danube mentioned by Seneca... they were Scirii with perhaps Celtic elite... and Celtic name ending -disci
I think they were I2a-Din north dominant...


this is based on Russian primary chronicle and Dalmil's chronicle

Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known
by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by
the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these
same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs
attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and
made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs. Of these same Lyakhs some were
called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians.

http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle

I think this refers to Pannonians, Dalmatians and Scordisci
Pannonians were in my opinion already speaking proto-Slavic as among them is tribe Oseriates living on Plitvice lake complex and Oseriates = lake in Slavic languages and in fact only in Slavic languages
(jezero in south and west Slavic and ozero in east Slavic)

Russian primary chronicle says that Vlakhs (Roman empire) caused these people to migrate to Vistula region...
this must have happened in 1st century AD, when Seneca speaks of Serians that rule over scattered Scythians..

scattered Scytians would be about Venedi, and I think Slavic language was adopted by Venedi in period from 1st century AD to 4th century AD....

R-M458 and I2a-Din of these Danubian Slavs was imposed over previous eastern and western Carpatian R1a originating from Veneti

prior to that the language of Venedi was probably alike Baltic languages...

Dalmil's chronicle says Czechs originated from Poles in land of Croatia that is in serbian language
but it also says that land of these Serbs was stretching from Greeks to Rome...

which is in accordance with Russian primary chronicle and points out that proto-Slavs were Pannonians, Dalmatians and Scordisci...

Scordisci may have been celticized or with celtic elite, and for Dalmatians we know that at some point in history they were also thought to have been celticized

on this point I am interested whether language of Pelasgians (who were I believe R-M458 people) had elements of early proto-Slavic or is it the case that they adopted proto-Slavic much later as Pannonians through their contact with Scirii/ Scordisci...
Dalmil's chronicle suggests that Poles lived in area of Serbian language...so I think Pelasgian was not proto-Slavic but may have contributed to vocabulary..

gyms
08-04-13, 14:34
white is proposed to mean west as in iranic/steppes people sides of the world were represented with colors...
white= west, black = north, red = south, and not sure green or brown or yellow = east

Belarus = white (belo) + Russian

but I think in Slavic people it is related to Venedi...
as there is no mention of other colors except white


also, De administrando imperio says that both Serbs and Croat in their states of white Croatia and white Serbia were also known as "white"

so I believe that Venedi may have be interpreted as Celtic *wendo = white
Scirii and Hirri were by some counted in tribes of Venedi
and Belarus may be Venedi Russians


never heard of this prophecy..but in Merlin's times genetic picture of UK was pretty much the same as now...
white and red is division in Russia between royalist and communist armies in civil war that started in year 1917...
so maybe prophecy means that in some future UK will adopt some kind of communism...
"but I think in Slavic people it is related to Venedi..."
You can thinc what you will,but there are other interpretations as well (not mine).One of them says:venedi were finnugric people.The history of the name venedi (of indoeuropean origin) is quite interesting.Finnish venno=friend,estonian vend=brother,komi von=brother,udmurtian vin=younger brother.The west slavs ocupied the theritorry of veneds,and got their name.

how yes no 3
08-04-13, 16:51
"but I think in Slavic people it is related to Venedi..."
You can thinc what you will,but there are other interpretations as well (not mine).One of them says:venedi were finnugric people.The history of the name venedi (of indoeuropean origin) is quite interesting.Finnish venno=friend,estonian vend=brother,komi von=brother,udmurtian vin=younger brother.The west slavs ocupied the theritorry of veneds,and got their name.

if you want to use Finish and Baltic to deny relation of "veni/veno/vena" to Slavic people, first use google translate and type names of Slavic nations closest to them
Finish:
Russia = Venäjä
Belarus - Valko-Venäjä
valko = white

Estonian:
Russia = Venemaa
Belarus = Valgevene
valge = white

you would do better to use Latvian and Lithuanian !!
Latvian
whte = Balts
Russian = Krievija
Belarus = Baltkrievija

Lithuanian
Russia = Rusija
Belarus = Baltarusija
white = Balt


this is exactly what I am telling
Venedi (celtic *Wendo = white) were originally speaking Baltic
Venedi = white = Balt

but with settlement of Danubian Slavs from Pannonia (Russian primary chronicle) among them in area along Vistula river, part of them has accepted Serbian or proto-Slavic language....

hence, Seneca in 1st century AD speaks of Serians that rule over scattered Scythians
and Czech chronicle of origin (Dalmil's chronicle) speaks about first Czech being born in land of Croats inside Serbian language area...


also R-458 is not really present in Balts, because it comes to Venedi together with settlement wave from Pannonia (Danubian Slavs described in Russian primary chronicle)

nor is I2a-Din of Serians present in Balts...
because Danubian Slavs settled around Vistula and not in lands where now Lithuania, Letonia and Estonia are located

note that neither R1a-M458 nor I2a-Din are really present outside of east Europe
they didnot come from Asia
they came to Vltava area from Pannonia, from Balkan...
R1a-M458 is estimated to be ancient old in Serbia...

genetically original Veneti/Venedi are east and west carpathian R1a
http://www.r1a.org/3.htm#7

I am considering that Veneti are same as Scythians...
before arrival of Sarmatians they lived from Baltic to Thrace and along north shores of Black sea... note that Thracian words bare more resemblance to Lithuanian than to modern Slavic languages....

also Seneca says Serians that rule over scattered Scythians....Scythians are scattered because they were beaten in Russia and Ukraine by Sarmatians....




note that in my opinion Antes were also of Veneti but probably had Sarmatian elite for long times...when Veneti were kicked out of Asia Minor, some of them settled along north shores of Black sea (giving Anti) and had only eastern branch of Carpathian R1a...
while west carpathian, north carpathian and baltic carpathian R1a have developed after this split within Veneti who moved to central Europe... those were Venedi that spoke Balto-Slavic (=Baltic)

only in 1st century AD with settlement of Danubian Slavs (R-M458 Pannonians and I2a-Din Serians (Scirii (&Hirri?)) among them around Vistula river, core of Venedi changes language (its not drastic change though as those were related languages) and partially also genetic structure




Estonian:
Latvia = Läti
Lithuania = Leedu

Finish:
Latvia = Latvia
Lithuania = Liettua

For Estonian and Finish, Venedi name is transfered to Slavic people because those are Venedi they were into contact with...irrelevant for the fact that language of that Venedi was shifted from Balto-Slavic (= Baltic more or less) to Slavic (Serbian language according to clue given n Dalmil's chronicle)

but for Latvians Russians are Krievija which is derived from Slavic tribe closest to them Krivichi...
why not Venedi? because they were also Venedi...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/East_Slavic_tribes_peoples_8th_9th_century.jpg/483px-East_Slavic_tribes_peoples_8th_9th_century.jpg

nordicwarrior
08-04-13, 17:18
white is proposed to mean west as in iranic/steppes people sides of the world were represented with colors...
white= west, black = north, red = south, and not sure green or brown or yellow = east

never heard of this prophecy..but in Merlin's times genetic picture of UK was pretty much the same as now...

I'm familiar with the color configuration of the Old World, but it doesn't always match up the way it should if that's what these old tribes are basing their legends on.

Check out how the white dragon represented the Anglo-Saxons and the red dragon represented the Welsh. You are correct in noting the genetic situation of the British Isles is pretty much consistent with how it looked back then (R1b heavy Welsh and more German/Norse on the southeast side of the island.) That's why I'm thinking the colors don't match the points of the compass.

But this does seem to be a theme that repeats throughout European history.

White Russians
White Croats
White Serbs
White dragon representing the Anglo-Saxons

I admit this completely off the wall... interesting connections though.

how yes no 3
08-04-13, 17:22
That's why I'm thinking the colors don't match the points of the compass.
i think that in case of Slavs "white" = mixed with Venedi that is with people who origin from Balts (Balt = white in Lithuanian and Latvian, Wendo = white in Celtic)

nordicwarrior
08-04-13, 17:35
In each of these examples there is a sizable component of hg I. And the Baltic wording actually helps my arguement.

How Yes No, I'm laughing as I type this because we both have some unorthodox ideas and I'm sure there are a few more traditional posters that are pulling their hair out reading our exchange.

zanipolo
08-04-13, 22:56
"but I think in Slavic people it is related to Venedi..."
You can thinc what you will,but there are other interpretations as well (not mine).One of them says:venedi were finnugric people.The history of the name venedi (of indoeuropean origin) is quite interesting.Finnish venno=friend,estonian vend=brother,komi von=brother,udmurtian vin=younger brother.The west slavs ocupied the theritorry of veneds,and got their name.

do not bother replying to yes and no , his agenda is;
1 - serbs created slavic language
2 - All R1a are slavs
3 - Slavic is older than germanic
4 - mixes venedi with veneti indicating same people
5 - baltic race was originally slavic
6 - russians are slavs ethnically even though russians say they are not
7 - Believes Jordanes and his fabricated lies,
8 - claims sarmatians, alans, roxlani, antes and scythians are all slavs
etc etc

He starts history at he time of the roman empire ( as if nothing was before this ) and has always failed to clarify a tribal name for slav from BC times......Ask him to name one tribe from pliny or any other historian times to reference as being slav - he cannot

Fails to understand that Kvens, Vends, Vendae are finnic or baltic peoples


IMO the truly original and only tribe I found to be slav is the Carpi and even with this I am unsure

al-kochol
08-04-13, 23:17
This white Serb/white Croat/white insert nationality here is repeated so frequently that it must mean something.

Could this tie into Merlin and his prediction of the Red side beating the White side in the British Isles? What if the Red represented haplogroup R (or more specifically R1b) and the White represented haplogroup I?

Kind of makes you ponder...

White means North, Red means South - these are old Slavic meanings. So Belarus (White Ruś in Polish) is on the North from Ukraine (Red Ruś in Polish). There was a period in history when Croatian (Chrobatian in Polish) tribe was on the run into the South from the modern part of Poland and Slovakia and therefore the land they left used to be called White Chrobatia meaning that the Red Chrobatia is already near the Adriatic Sea on the South. Polish national flag is white-red with white on the top (North), meaning the unification of Slavic tribes under one state.

how yes no 3
08-04-13, 23:20
do not bother replying to yes and no , his agenda is;
you pose as italian but you are not one...
your agenda is anti-slavic, anti-serb, and anti-greek
that explains well your real background


1 - serbs created slavic language
correct
according to Dalmil's chronicle (historical source of Czechs) the language spoken by Poles and Czechs was called Serbian (this doesnot mean that it was the same as modern Serbian, but that at the time of early Slavs proto-Slavic was called Serbian)


2 - All R1a are slavs
I have never ever claimed anything alike and you are well aware I didnot


3 - Slavic is older than germanic
Slavic is not older than Germanic
but closer to PIE
Baltic languages are even closer


4 - mixes venedi with veneti indicating same people
there is in my opinion clear continuity of tribal names...
but only partial continuity regarding genetics and language

original Veneti from Asia minor spoke some variant of PIE language
in later Venedi of central Europe this has developed into Balto-Slavic (= more or less Baltic languages)
but with admixture of Danubian Slavs who settled areas around Vltava river part of Venedi changed language to proto-Slavic (Serbian according to Dalmil's chronicle)


5 - baltic race was originally slavic
there is no Baltic race and Slavic race - those are languages
there is R1a race and I1 race and I2a race....


6 - russians are slavs ethnically even though russians say they are not
Russians are Slavs ethnically, so are Serbs and Czechs and Croats and Poles...
yet genetically all these people, like any nation, have mixed origins...
I was trying to interpret possible origins...


7 - Believes Jordanes and his fabricated lies,
Jordanes is respectable historical source, unlike internet sites you keep posting...


8 - claims sarmatians, alans, roxlani, antes and scythians are all slavs
etc etc
they are not Slavs
but most or some of them have completely or partially genetically contributed to Slavs of today..


He starts history at he time of the roman empire ( as if nothing was before this ) and has always failed to clarify a tribal name for slav from BC times......Ask him to name one tribe from pliny or any other historian times to reference as being slav - he cannot
i never tried to find tribal name Slav before 5th century...
its a new name
is there EU name prior to year 1993?
is there USA name prior to year 1776?
but do you claim there were no Europeans prior to year 1993?
were there no Americans prior to 1776?



Fails to understand that Kvens, Vends, Vendae are finnic or baltic peoples
there is a world of difference between Finnish and Baltic...
both genetically and linguistically

one of those nations has dominant R1a and other N haplogroup
one of those nations speaks indo-europen langage other uralic

saying Venedi are Finnish or Baltic is like saying they were either Spanish or Swedish, or saying they were either Zulu or Eskimos

or to translate it - what you are communicating is that you have no clue who Venedi were ethnically but you are somehow sure they could not ever had any possible relations with any Slavic people...


IMO the truly original and only tribe I found to be slav is the Carpi and even with this I am unsure
Carpi are Dacians for your information...
you keep using strange sources of information
use historical books and not internet sites....

zanipolo
09-04-13, 00:11
you pose as italian but you are not one...
your agenda is anti-slavic, anti-serb, and anti-greek
that explains well your real background


I am dual citizen, australian and italian .....no more to say.
at least one good thing the italians did was to recognise by law that there where no italians before March 1866. They do not associate people like the slavs do, ....oh you know slavic language, then you must be slavic...how pathetic.


correct
according to Dalmil's chronicle (historical source of Czechs) the language spoken by Poles and Czechs was called Serbian (this doesnot mean that it was the same as modern Serbian, but that at the time of early Slavs proto-Slavic was called Serbian)

crap...if it was serbian, then you have a date for this language create dby serbs...what is it?


Slavic is not older than Germanic
but closer to PIE
Baltic languages are even closer

Baltic ethnicity is older than Slavic and Germanic, why deny this?
The balts where sailing the baltic sea centuries before anyone else..


there is in my opinion clear continuity of tribal names...
but only partial continuity regarding genetics and language

association by language ..are very dangerous and inaccurate concept..already explained to you hundreds of times.



original Veneti from Asia minor spoke some variant of PIE language
in later Venedi of central Europe this has developed into Balto-Slavic (= more or less Baltic languages)
but with admixture of Danubian Slavs who settled areas around Vltava river part of Venedi changed language to proto-Slavic (Serbian according to Dalmil's chronicle)

you believe Homers tales, and also cato in saying Veneti are trojans OR are you saying these same veneti became the Venedi on the baltic...more word association!

What is a danubian slav?...someone who over time absorbed the remaining illyrian, thracian, getae and dacian people?




there is no Baltic race and Slavic race - those are languages
there is R1a race and I1 race and I2a race....


so there is no ethnic baltic or slavic, so why do you associate language with ethnics?
By your concept, then because we are communicating to each other in English, then we BOTH are ENGLISH ethnically! is that how it works!


Russians are Slavs ethnically, so are Serbs and Czechs and Croats and Poles...
yet genetically all these people, like any nation, have mixed origins...
I was trying to interpret possible origins...

Russians are slavs linguistically and not ethnically, only true slavs are in poles and ukraines and not the full 100% of people.


Jordanes is respectable historical source, unlike internet sites you keep posting...



Your biggest error...his works have already been destroyed by many, many historians as fabricated after steeling the work of cassiodorus .



i never tried to find tribal name Slav before 5th century...
its a new name
is there EU name prior to year 1993?
is there USA name prior to year 1776?
but do you claim there were no Europeans prior to year 1993?
were there no Americans prior to 1776?


Because they did not exist at the time , yet you try to destroy the history of the original inhabitants by making them some form of Proto-slavic


there is a world of difference between Finnish and Baltic...
both genetically and linguistically


yes there is , and both are older than slavic and their history in the bronze and iron ages should not be removed due to some slavic nationalistic ideas.


or to translate it - what you are communicating is that you have no clue who Venedi were ethnically but you are somehow sure they could not ever had any possible relations with any Slavic people...

Venedi are baltic people as per genetic studies by russians, poles and germans. they existed from 350BC to 200AD and where then absorbed into Goth society before the goths marched to the black sea. the venedi have no written language and only left behind the "flat grave mounds" which are baltic in style



Carpi are Dacians for your information...
you keep using strange sources of information
use historical books and not internet sites....

Maybe, although I do not recall any dacians on the north side of the carpathian mountains

nordicwarrior
09-04-13, 00:23
White means North, Red means South - these are old Slavic meanings. So Belarus (White Ruś in Polish) is on the North from Ukraine (Red Ruś in Polish). There was a period in history when Croatian (Chrobatian in Polish) tribe was on the run into the South from the modern part of Poland and Slovakia and therefore the land they left used to be called White Chrobatia meaning that the Red Chrobatia is already near the Adriatic Sea on the South. Polish national flag is white-red with white on the top (North), meaning the unification of Slavic tribes under one state.

That fits better, but not perfectly. How do you explain the white Anglo-Saxon association (being located almost due East of the Welsh population)?

The white/red combination is on many flags (including the U.S. Stars and Stripes, and also on the Republic of Croatia Coat of Arms). Of course the red is atop the white on the U.S. flag though.

I don't mean this to be a serious debate, I only made this observation because I've seen it repeat so frequently with tribes linking to white and also the White/Red colors seen on so many flags today. It would make some sense for differing haplogroups to hold on to ancient associations (such as hg I to the color white) as a form of DNA preservation and support. Something to keep in the back of your mind anyway.

Nobody1
09-04-13, 01:41
at Nordicwarbler

Donald A. MacKenzie - Myths of Pre-Columbian America (1923)
In India the north is white and the south, being Yama's gate and Yama the god of death, is coloured black. Southern India is no darker than the north. The Chinese coloured their north black, their south red, their east green or blue, and their west white. In Gaelic the north is black and the south white, the east purple-red and the west dun or pale.

Interesting but wouldnt read too much into it.

Nobody1
09-04-13, 01:43
at How yes no 3

You do realise that Pliny never claimed that the Venedi were Sclavish.
Those assumptions and your theory are based on the interpretations of M. Parisot, not of any classical author.

Pliny - Natural History (79 AD)
"Some writers state that these regions, as far as the river Vistula, are inhabited by the Sarmati, the Venedi, the Sciri, and the Hirri, and that there is a gulf there known by the name of Cylipenus, at the mouth of which is the island of Latris, after which comes another gulf, that of Lagnus, which borders on the Cimbri. The Cimbrian Promontory, running out into the sea for a great distance, forms a peninsula which bears the name of Cartris"

Pliny is describing the Baltic coast, the gulfs he mentions are the Frische Haff and Kurisches Haff with the peninsula Cartris being Samland. And he clearly states that the Sciri and Hirri are next to (not amongst) the Venedi.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Map_of_East_Prussia_1648.jpg

your theory only makes sense if:
1.) the Venedi are Slavic/proto-slavic
2.) the Sciri and Hirri are Venedic tribes.

But no classical author states that, Pytheas (4th cen BC/the first) only mentions Teutones and Guttones [on the Baltic coast] and Strabo, Ptolemy and Pliny all mention Venedi but none claim them to be slavic or proto-slavic. And acc. to the testimony of Tacitus one can consider the Venedi as Balts not Slavs
And the Sciri and Hirri have nothing to do with the Venedi in the first place (just neighbours and prob. Germanic [Sciri and Heruli]).

Yetos
09-04-13, 02:42
White means North, Red means South - these are old Slavic meanings. So Belarus (White Ruś in Polish) is on the North from Ukraine (Red Ruś in Polish). There was a period in history when Croatian (Chrobatian in Polish) tribe was on the run into the South from the modern part of Poland and Slovakia and therefore the land they left used to be called White Chrobatia meaning that the Red Chrobatia is already near the Adriatic Sea on the South. Polish national flag is white-red with white on the top (North), meaning the unification of Slavic tribes under one state.

Sory,

North is Black,

and is not coinsidence,

Noir and Nor(th)
White and West (weiss, west)

that is from old Iranian or (Turkic system?)

for example black sea= North sea = Axein (Aryan black) sea= AΞεινος (Ευξεινος) Ποντος

black is North,
red is south
white is west,
yellow is east

nordicwarrior
09-04-13, 04:41
As we can see, there are multiple opinions on the compass point/color association. What seems far more consistent is that the groups referring to themselves as white something (ie. white Croats, white Russians, etc.) have a strong haplogroup I representation.

Colors on a flag usually have layer after layer of meaning-- often geared to more than one audience-- and maybe one of these point back to ancient tribal membership (which might even go far back enough to touch upon y-haplogroup divisions). We know from the "royal haplogroup" (R1b) that those in the know have played close attention to these sorts of things for some time now because of their extremely high rate of occupation of seats of power, well before any genetic tests were available through the modern postal services. Please refer to any and all of the Royal Houses of Europe for evidence.

I'm not going to comment any more about this possible color coded connection because it is a bit far fetched, but it did make me think twice when I noticed the pattern.

gyms
09-04-13, 10:06
According to Julius Pokorný (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Pokorn%C3%BD), the ethnonym Venetī (singular *Venetos) is derived from Proto Indo-European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language) root *u̯en- 'to strive; to wish for, to love'. As shown by the comparative material, the Germanic languages may have had two terms of different origin: Old High German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_High_German) Winida 'Wende' points to Pre-Germanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_Parent_Language) *u̯enétos, while Lat.-Germ. Venedi (as attested in Tacitus) and Old English Winedas 'Wends' call for Pre-Germanic *u̯énetos.
The ethnonym would then be etymologically related to words as Latin venus, -eris 'love, passion, grace'; Sanskrit vanas- 'lust, zest', vani- 'wish, desire'; Old Irish fine (< Proto-Celtic *venjā) 'kinship, kinfolk, alliance, tribe, family'; Old Norse vinr, Old Saxon, Old High German wini, Old Frisian, Old English wine 'friend'.
"Tacitus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Cornelius_Tacitus), writing in AD 98 did not refer to the Vistula as a boundary, but simply locates the Veneti among the peoples on the eastern fringe of Germania. He was uncertain of their ethnic identity:

The Veneti have borrowed largely from Sarmatian ways; their plundering forays take them all over the wooded and mountainous country that rises between the Peucini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peucini) and the Fenni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenni). Nevertheless, they are to be classed as Germani, for they have settled houses, carry shields and are fond of travelling fast on foot; in all these respects they differ from the Sarmatians, who live in wagons or on horseback."

how yes no 3
09-04-13, 10:09
.....
zanipolo, I will not waste my time discussing things with you, because your purpose is not to understand what I write but to attack it and often with very ill arguments or by twisting what i said and without actually reading core of theories that I propose....

I think that theory I propose makes lot of sense under certain assumptions


at How yes no 3

You do realise that Pliny never claimed that the Venedi were Sclavish.
Those assumptions and your theory are based on the interpretations of M. Parisot, not of any classical author.
I do realize that...
and I have cited text with numbered remarks and explained "it is suggested that Scirii and Hirri are tribes of Sclavish Venedi"



Pliny is describing the Baltic coast, the gulfs he mentions are the Frische Haff and Kurisches Haff with the peninsula Cartris being Samland. And he clearly states that the Sciri and Hirri are next to (not amongst) the Venedi.

he speaks in short text of very large area including "island" of Scandinavia and Finland...also of Cimbri (Denmark)...

he does not pinpoint where those 4 tribes exactly live except that some writers "as far as Vistula"...which is probably "as close as Vistula" since core of these tribes is on other side of Vistula....

but in any case those gulfs are just east of Lithuania and whole area south of them all the way to Slovakia is Vistula with its tributaries...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/Vistula_river_map.png/300px-Vistula_river_map.png

why is this important?
Vistula is birth place of Slavic people...
Russian primary chronicle says proto-Slavs moved from Danube area (Hungary and Bugaria in time of writing translates more or less to north Serbia both above and bellow Danube which are at that time settled with Scor+disci and possibly Pannonian plane with Slavonia and north Bosnia - where Pannonians lived) to Vistula due to Roman empire expanding....

....also lower Vistula and upper Vistula is where key I2a-Din South hotspots are apart from Serb settled areas and their previous location in Bohemia....

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap



your theory only makes sense if:
1.) the Venedi are Slavic/proto-slavic
2.) the Sciri and Hirri are Venedic tribes.

not really
what I claimed is that Venedi are originally Baltic language speakers of R1a carpathian branches...

but that around 1st century there is settlement wave in Vistula region from Danube area described by Russian primary chronicle ...

what I claim is that due to this settlement wave genetics and language of Venedi in Vistula region is affected.....

so before the settlements they were Baltic speakers, some time after it they are proto-Slavic speakers.....

these new waves are genetically: R1a-M458 (ancient old in area of Serbia, which shows likely earlier location) and I2a-Din (which shows clear trend of spreading along Danube)

these are proto-Slavic speakers...they move to live among original Venedi and their culture and language become dominant...

for neighbouring tribes such as Germans and Finnish there is no big difference as proto-Slavic is more or less branch of Baltic languages.....



But no classical author states that, Pytheas (4th cen BC/the first) only mentions Teutones and Guttones [on the Baltic coast] and Strabo, Ptolemy and Pliny all mention Venedi but none claim them to be slavic or proto-slavic. And acc. to the testimony of Tacitus one can consider the Venedi as Balts not Slavs
none of them states what they are by language..
Tacitus claims they are Germanic because they live in houses and hence are not Sarmatians who are nomads... but he recognizes that they borrow on Samatian ways in many things...

but as I said I believe that early Venedi were speaking Baltic-alike languages which have changed with settlement wave of Pannonians...


And the Sciri and Hirri have nothing to do with the Venedi in the first place (just neighbours and prob. Germanic [Sciri and Heruli]).

Scirii are very likely Serians of Seneca that rule over scattered Scythians....

east Europe area where Sarmatians and Venedi live is Scythia....

and Scythians were rulling whole east Europe prior to conquest of Sarmatians....
so Venedi are probably same people as Scythians...
(Carpathian R1a branches)


Seneca is explicit that Serians are not Sarmatians (because they also dare to live in Caucasus unguarded from Sarmatians which could be about Serboi of Asian Sarmatia living next to Alans those Serboi are thought to be the same people as later Siraces) ...

so if Serians rule over Scythians but they are not Sarmatians
who is left in area except Scirii?

same Serians he mentions in relation to Danube...

this is clear overlap with claim of Russian primary chronicle that puts early Slavs in Danube area (described area matches Scordisci and Pannonians) and describes movement from there to Vistula...

also, Bavarian geographer speaks of "Zeruiani whose state was so big that all Slavs come from it"



Scirii are classified as Alans by Jordanes...and he being educated Goth from influential family should know which tribes are Germanic and which are not....he is not guessing whether tribes are germanic based on whether they live in houses - like Tacitus does.... he knows which tribes are Germanic and which not as it is part of his personal history...maybe they were not Alans, but if Jordanes claims they are something else than Germanic than you can be 100% sure they were not germanic...

zanipolo
09-04-13, 11:41
zanipolo, I will not waste my time discussing things with you, because your purpose is not to understand what I write but to attack it and often with very ill arguments or by twisting what i said and without actually reading core of theories that I propose....

I think that theory I propose makes lot of sense under certain assumptions

I challenge you because you make no sense , no timing of age and the rubbish that everyone that the slavs absorbed was proto-slavic



I do realize that...
and I have cited text with numbered remarks and explained "it is suggested that Scirii and Hirri are tribes of Sclavish Venedi"


You suggest they where sclavish ....are you a historian? I can suggest something as well!



he speaks in short text of very large area including "island" of Scandinavia and Finland...also of Cimbri (Denmark)...

he does not pinpoint where those 4 tribes exactly live except that some writers "as far as Vistula"...which is probably "as close as Vistula" since core of these tribes is on other side of Vistula....

but in any case those gulfs are just east of Lithuania and whole area south of them all the way to Slovakia is Vistula with its tributaries...

I do not know where you get your text about Pliny from, but here is another historian

(a) Ptolomaeus (A.D. 161-182), the famous ancient geographer, mathematician and astronomer, in his treatise Geogr. lib. 3. cap. 5. writes:

Elattova de eunh vemetai Saomatian, paoa men ton Ouistoulan potamon. Upo touj Ouenedaj, Guuwnej. Eita Finnoi. Eita Boulanej. Uf ouj Foougondiwvej. Eita Auaohnoi, paoa thn cefalhn tou Ouistoula potamou.

This, when translated into English, means: "The less significant people abide in Sarmatia, near the mouth of the Vistula river. Beyond the Venedi are Guthones. Then the Finns. Then the Boulanes (= Poles). Beyond them are the Frugundians. Then the Avarens, near the head of the Vistula river". Here we notice, that Ptolomaeus enumerated different nations starting from north southward. Hence his statement "beyond the Venedi, are Guthones" is correct. Venedi were the ancient people living near Vindau, in Latvia; and the Guthones living alongside Venedi surely could be no other people but the inhabitants of old Lithuania.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/Vistula_river_map.png/300px-Vistula_river_map.png


why is this important?
Vistula is birth place of Slavic people...
Russian primary chronicle says proto-Slavs moved from Danube area (Hungary and Bugaria in time of writing translates more or less to north Serbia both above and bellow Danube which are at that time settled with Scor+disci and possibly Pannonian plane with Slavonia and north Bosnia - where Pannonians lived) to Vistula due to Roman empire expanding....

....also lower Vistula and upper Vistula is where key I2a-Din South hotspots are apart from Serb settled areas and their previous location in Bohemia....

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap



from polish historians 2008

http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/6731/ug1e.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/688/ug1e.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Map of Wielbark Culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wielbark_culture) with divisions on zones and periods (I can't see well # near letter of periods)
a (orange) - Zone A (200 BC - and of 4th century AC)
b (blue) - Zone B (150 BC - 200 AC)
c (yellow) - Zone CN "Gothiskandza" (abt. 70-200 AC)
d (light yellow) - Zone CS (abt. 80-200 AC)
e (green) - Zone D (abt. 100-350 AC)

Clearly there is no slavs in lower of middle vistula if the goths are there....you must mean only the Upper vistula. All these colours are for movement of the Goths, clearly the venedi are further east...in the middle of old baltic prussian lands


not really
what I claimed is that Venedi are originally Baltic language speakers of R1a carpathian branches...

but that around 1st century there is settlement wave in Vistula region from Danube area described by Russian primary chronicle ...

what I claim is that due to this settlement wave genetics and language of Venedi in Vistula region is affected.....

so before the settlements they were Baltic speakers, some time after it they are proto-Slavic speakers.....

these new waves are genetically: R1a-M458 (ancient old in area of Serbia, which shows likely earlier location) and I2a-Din (which shows clear trend of spreading along Danube)

these are proto-Slavic speakers...they move to live among original Venedi and their culture and language become dominant...

for neighbouring tribes such as Germans and Finnish there is no big difference as proto-Slavic is more or less branch of Baltic languages.....

impossible the Venedi where absorbed and became the Vidivarii....from your beloved Jordanes
The Vidivarii are described by Jordanes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordanes) in his Getica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getica) as a melting pot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melting_pot) of tribes who in the mid-6th century lived at the lower Vistula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula):[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidivarii#cite_note-1)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidivarii#cite_note-DeJong-2)
Ad litus oceani, ubi tribus faucibus fluenta Vistulae fluminibus ebibuntur, Vidivarii resident ex diversis nationibus aggregati.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidivarii#cite_note-3)

Though differing from the earlier Willenberg culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willenberg_culture), some traditions were continued,[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidivarii#cite_note-DeJong-2) thus the corresponding archaeological culture is sometimes described as the Vidivarian or widiwar stage of the Willenberg culture. The bearers of the Willenberg culture have been associated with a heterogeneous people comprising Vistula Veneti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti), Goths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths), Rugii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugii), and Gepids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gepids).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidivarii#cite_note-Piskorski25-4) One hypothesis, based on the sudden appearance of large amounts of Roman solidi and migrations of other groups after the breakdown of the Hun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hun) empire in 453, suggest a partial re-migration of earlier emigrants to their former northern homelands.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidivarii#cite_note-DeJong-2)



but as I said I believe that early Venedi were speaking Baltic-alike languages which have changed with settlement wave of Pannonians...


at the time in question Pannonia was a mix of illyrian and celtic people, which pannonians moved north?




Seneca is explicit that Serians are not Sarmatians (because they also dare to live in Caucasus unguarded from Sarmatians which could be about Serboi of Asian Sarmatia living next to Alans those Serboi are thought to be the same people as later Siraces) ...

so if Serians rule over Scythians but they are not Sarmatians
who is left in area except Scirii?


word association .....very bad


same Serians he mentions in relation to Danube...

this is clear overlap with claim of Russian primary chronicle that puts early Slavs in Danube area (described area matches Scordisci and Pannonians) and describes movement from there to Vistula...

which russian I will check, please name him/them



Scirii are classified as Alans by Jordanes...and he being educated Goth from influential family should know which tribes are Germanic and which are not....he is not guessing whether tribes are germanic based on whether they live in houses - like Tacitus does.... he knows which tribes are Germanic and which not as it is part of his personal history...maybe they were not Alans, but if Jordanes claims they are something else than Germanic than you can be 100% sure they were not germanic...

and 40 years ago the slovenians claimed the scirii as settling in stryia.
Alans where people form the north of the black sea and where replaced by the bulgars....where you going with this


Pytheas writes
Pytheus who sailed the baltic in 320BC states

Pytheas credidit Guttonibus Germaniae genti, accoli Aestuarium oceani, MENTO NOMON nomine, spatio stadiorum sex millium. Ab hoc die navigatione
insulam abesse Abalum. Illo vero fluctibus advehi et esse concreti maris purgamentum.
as translated -"Pytheas believed that the Guttones were of German race, living by the Aestuarian sea (Baltic sea), at the mouth of the river named NOMON, at the stretch of 6,000 stadii. Sailing a day. Pytheus never knew of baltic people, so called them germanics, but the river Nomon is stated.
native land of the Goths was by the Aestuarian sea (by the Baltic sea), exactly where the Aestians (Aestii = Lithuanian ancestors) lived. The same author is still more definite when he points out that they lived nowhere else but at the mouth of NEMON river. And in the original Greek manuscript would be Men to Nouon. Hence the word "MENTO" equals the Greek people, to which means "MOUTH of the RIVER"; --- and the word "NOMON" means "NEMON" (= Niemen).


looking at old prussian lands and there markers in ftdna - where venedi and aestii lived
they comprise of the following markers

R1a: 11%
R1b: 33%
N: 35%
I1: 18%
others: 3%

which is the slavic ones?

Nobody1
09-04-13, 12:36
I do realize that...and I have cited text with numbered remarks and explained "it is suggested that Scirii and Hirri are tribes of Sclavish Venedi"

Correct, but its not suggested by Pliny, its suggested by M. Parisot who translated Pliny [Histoire Naturelle de Pline - Ajasson] in the 19th cen. Thats important to note.


he speaks in short text of very large area including "island" of Scandinavia and Finland...also of Cimbri (Denmark)...

No, Pliny doesnt mention Cimbric Jutland (Denmark), he mentions the peninsula Cartris. Jutland was known as Cimbria or Chersonesus Cimbrica. Not Cartris.


he does not pinpoint where those 4 tribes exactly live

Correct, but he clearly separates them form one another. As does Tacitus, Ptolemy and Strabo

I agree with you that Tacitus is guessing about the Venedi but he clearly locates them between the Peucini and the Fenni [poss. baltic origin]. with the Peucini having a strange kinship with the Bastarnae further south.

Y-DNA = Dead End

I would leave Y-DNA out of it, Y-DNA is a good indicator for modern day regional affiliations, but not for ancient internal Indo-European migrtaions. R1a was already found west of the Elbe river as early as ~2,600 BC [Corded Ware Culture]
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/47/18226.long

And apparantely the I-M438 complex is Pre-Indo-European to begin with.

The Sciri

You connect the Scirii to alot of other Peoples, so lets take a look at the Scirii proper.
Zosimus and Sidonius inform us that the Scirii are vassals of the Huns and part of the invasions of Uldin (defeated) and into Gaul 451 AD.
Jordanes (great source) informs us that after Attila's death [453 AD] the Scirii take refuge by the Romans in Scythia Minor and Moesia Inferior.
Jordanes also tells us about two Scirian uprisings against the Ostrogoths [Valamir], which end in desaster for the Scirii.
And last but not least, Procopius asserts the Scirii to be a Gothic nation.

Procopius - De Bello Gothico (550 AD)
Now it happened that the Romans a short time before had induced the Sciri and Alani and certain other Gothic nations to form an alliance with them;

Jordanes was a Byzantine of Alani ancestry his father was a certain Alanoviimuthes

I have a diff. theory of the Slavic origin, and its pretty simple.

zanipolo
09-04-13, 12:48
The Sciri

You connect the Scirii to alot of other Peoples, so lets take a look at the Scirii proper.
Zosimus and Sidonius inform us that the Scirii are vassals of the Huns and part of the invasions of Uldin (defeated) and into Gaul 451 AD.
Jordanes (great source) informs us that after Attila's death [453 AD] the Scirii take refuge by the Romans in Scythia Minor and Moesia Inferior.
Jordanes also tells us about two Scirian uprisings against the Ostrogoths [Valamir], which end in desaster for the Scirii.
And last but not least, Procopius asserts the Scirii to be a Gothic nation.

Procopius - De Bello Gothico (550 AD)
Now it happened that the Romans a short time before had induced the Sciri and Alani and certain other Gothic nations to form an alliance with them;

Jordanes was a Byzantine of Alani ancestry his father was a certain Alanoviimuthes

I have a diff. theory of the Slavic origin, and its pretty simple.

correct me if I am wrong, but did'nt the Goths hate the scirii so much that they nearly wiped them out as a tribe in and around 100AD. I further recall, the remnants later on , joined the huns for protection as the huns warred the Goths

Let me know, your slav theory as the map I uploaded early on in the thread is what the current slav historians claim as original slav lands.
I beleive it makes sense to a degree as well as knowledge of river names in germanic lands was taught to them by the Bastanae.....there might even be a union between bastanae and slavs over time.

how yes no 3
09-04-13, 15:33
Correct, but its not suggested by Pliny, its suggested by M. Parisot who translated Pliny [Histoire Naturelle de Pline - Ajasson] in the 19th cen. Thats important to note.
i thought it is clear as remarks with numbers in historic books are always by editor/translator not by author
but still it is suggested....


No, Pliny doesnt mention Cimbric Jutland (Denmark), he mentions the peninsula Cartris. Jutland was known as Cimbria or Chersonesus Cimbrica. Not Cartris.

Cartris is part of Jutland

point was that he gives in few sentences overview of very large area from Cimbri to Finnish areas...

"Some writers state that these regions, as far as the river Vistula, are inhabited by the Sarmati, the Venedi21 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0137:book=4:chapter= 27&highlight=sciri#note21), the Sciri, and the Hirri22 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0137:book=4:chapter= 27&highlight=sciri#note22), and that there is a gulf there known by the name of Cylipenus23 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0137:book=4:chapter= 27&highlight=sciri#note23), at the mouth of which is the island of Latris, after which comes another gulf, that of Lagnus, which borders on the Cimbri. The Cimbrian Promontory, running out into the sea for a great distance, forms a peninsula which bears the name of Cartris24 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0137:book=4:chapter= 27&highlight=sciri#note24).
...
24 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0137:book=4:chapter= 27&highlight=sciri#note-link24) The modern Cape of Skagen on the north of Jutland.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0137:book=4:chapter= 27&highlight=sciri



Correct, but he clearly separates them form one another. As does Tacitus, Ptolemy and Strabo
I separate as well...
as I claim based on Seneca's statement that Serians/Scirii rulled over Venedi... they were separate tribe but also rulled over Venedi influencing their genetics and language (and gene flow also went other way around as well)....

e.g. I2a-Din south is younger than I2a-Din north and is found only where proposed locations of Scirii proper are - on Vistula first close to Baltic, later closer to Carpathians and Black sea...
while I2a-Din north is found all over Scythia...



Y-DNA = Dead End
I would leave Y-DNA out of it, Y-DNA is a good indicator for modern day regional affiliations, but not for ancient internal Indo-European migrtaions.

without enough clear historic data, YDNA is only clue to what actually happened..



R1a was already found west of the Elbe river as early as ~2,600 BC [Corded Ware Culture]
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/47/18226.long
there are different branches of R1a...they are waves of different people..
the one you talk about expanded to Europe much earlier and is called "old Scandinavian branch"
http://r1a.org/3.htm#13





The Sciri
You connect the Scirii to alot of other Peoples, so lets take a look at the Scirii proper.
Zosimus and Sidonius inform us that the Scirii are vassals of the Huns and part of the invasions of Uldin (defeated) and into Gaul 451 AD.
Jordanes (great source) informs us that after Attila's death [453 AD] the Scirii take refuge by the Romans in Scythia Minor and Moesia Inferior.
Jordanes also tells us about two Scirian uprisings against the Ostrogoths [Valamir], which end in desaster for the Scirii.
And last but not least, Procopius asserts the Scirii to be a Gothic nation.

Procopius - De Bello Gothico (550 AD)
Now it happened that the Romans a short time before had induced the Sciri and Alani and certain other Gothic nations to form an alliance with them;
are Alani Gothic nation?
they are known to be iranian people
so for Procopius Gothic nation prob means living under rule of Goths or being tightly connected to them



Jordanes was a Byzantine of Alani ancestry his father was a certain Alanoviimuthes
Jordanes is in many sources said to be of Gothic origin...
e.g. http://books.google.nl/books?id=1piMMqjAf1MC&lpg=PA589&dq=Jordanes%22gothic%20origin%22%20%20Croke&pg=PA589#v=onepage&q=Jordanes%22gothic%20origin%22%20%20Croke&f=false (http://http://books.google.nl/books?id=1piMMqjAf1MC&lpg=PA589&dq=Jordanes%22gothic%20origin%22%20%20Croke&pg=PA589#v=onepage&q=Jordanes%22gothic%20origin%22%20%20Croke&f=false)


I have a diff. theory of the Slavic origin, and its pretty simple.
can you share it?

how yes no 3
09-04-13, 16:07
I challenge you because you make no sense , no timing of age and the rubbish that everyone that the slavs absorbed was proto-slavic[
nope, you make no sense.. you keep quoting some suspicious sources...and discrediting known historical sources...
I do not claim that all people absorbed by Slavs are proto-Slavic...




You suggest they where sclavish ....are you a historian? I can suggest something as well!
its clear that it is not my suggestion, but a suggestion of a historian who translated book of Pliny..
visit the link and read...
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0137:book=4:chapter= 27&highlight=sciri#note24





I do not know where you get your text about Pliny from, but here is another historian

(a) Ptolomaeus (A.D. 161-182), the famous ancient geographer, mathematician and astronomer, in his treatise Geogr. lib. 3. cap. 5. writes:

Elattova de eunh vemetai Saomatian, paoa men ton Ouistoulan potamon. Upo touj Ouenedaj, Guuwnej. Eita Finnoi. Eita Boulanej. Uf ouj Foougondiwvej. Eita Auaohnoi, paoa thn cefalhn tou Ouistoula potamou.

This, when translated into English, means: "The less significant people abide in Sarmatia, near the mouth of the Vistula river. Beyond the Venedi are Guthones. Then the Finns. Then the Boulanes (= Poles). Beyond them are the Frugundians. Then the Avarens, near the head of the Vistula river". Here we notice, that Ptolomaeus enumerated different nations starting from north southward. Hence his statement "beyond the Venedi, are Guthones" is correct. Venedi were the ancient people living near Vindau, in Latvia; and the Guthones living alongside Venedi surely could be no other people but the inhabitants of old Lithuania.


don't know how credible source this is, but:

this is order on Vistula from north to south...
there is no Finnish haplogroup N anywhere in mid Vistula...
Finnoi are not Finnish, but Fenni
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenni

keep in mind that Estonians and Finish people call Russia Vennema and Venäjä respectively
in my opinion this Fenni/Venni are root word for Slo-veni
slo could come from "slobodni" = free
perhaps ancestors of Slovaks and Slovenians...
iBoulanes expand to nortwest and Slo-Fenni to south

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/Vistula_river_map.png/300px-Vistula_river_map.png






Clearly there is no slavs in lower of middle vistula if the goths are there....you must mean only the Upper vistula. All these colours are for movement of the Goths, clearly the venedi are further east...in the middle of old baltic prussian lands


Goths are not all population of all areas they keep under control...
this is also why Procopius mistakenly counts Alani (and Scirii) in Gothic nations...
it is like saying Kurds are turkish nation, because majority of them lives in Turkey....






at the time in question Pannonia was a mix of illyrian and celtic people, which pannonians moved north?

don't mix Roman province ofIllyricum with actual Illyria...
actual Illyria most likely never extended much further north than Montenegro....

naming of provinces in Roman empire was intended to create melting pots in which actual ethnical identities would be weakened and eventually lost....e.g. province of Macedonia was more north than actual Macedonia.....its like if you would name half of Turkey and of Iran - Iranian province, and half of Turkey and half of Greece - as Turkic province, and half of Greece and half of Albania - Greece province... and everywhere only official language is latin... so you deliberatelly confuse national identities and create melting pot that speaks latin as that is only language both ethnicities in misnamed province will understand....

Pannonians are neither Illyrians nor Celts...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria

Pannoni that migrate northeast (towards Dacia) can easily be the same people as Fenni in Vistula region where Russian primary chronicle says Danubian Slavs settled...
do you see the similarity in tribal names Pannoni and Fenni?
and similarity with Finnish and Estonian words for Russians (Venni)
I do not say tribal name changed..
its just written down differently in different times and languages...





which russian I will check, please name him/them

Russian primary chronicle is medival russian document that captures their memory about their origin
it is written down in year 1113
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Primary_Chronicle
here's the text
http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf


and 40 years ago the slovenians claimed the scirii as settling in stryia.
Alans where people form the north of the black sea and where replaced by the bulgars....where you going with this
Alani are iranian (sarmatian) nation from Caucasus..
they were also living all over Europe..
went to Spain with Suebi and Vandali

iranian speaking Ossetians are considered to origin from Alani
their main haplogroup is G, which is in accordance with origin from Alani

interestingly in north Ossetians there is some I2a-Dinaric
and Serboi tribe was just northeast of them in Asian Sarmatia

this is why Serboi are considered Alanian/Sarmatian in origin...
but I make claim that Serboi/Serbi that Ptolomeus captures in Caucasus are those Serians that Seneca mention as living unguarded among Sarmatians...
such an expression strongly suggests that they are not Sarmatians...
also its clear that they are not Alani but just their neighbours

Jordanes puts Scirii in Alani... i think he does that because they are alies and have nearby settlements in Caucasus and perhaps elsewhere..
that is Serians like Alani have settlements in various not directly connected locations....

whole point of such a strategy is in trading...
Serians/Seres are known as traders across Asia...
Siraces on east shores of Black sea are traders....


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_nei ghbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg/800px-Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_nei ghbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg
click for larger map
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Colchis,_Iberia,_Albania,_and_the_neig hbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg


looking at old prussian lands and there markers in ftdna - where venedi and aestii lived
they comprise of the following markers

R1a: 11%
R1b: 33%
N: 35%
I1: 18%
others: 3%

which is the slavic ones?
this is non-sense...
I am speaking about Vistula river area...

zanipolo
10-04-13, 08:02
nope, you make no sense.. you keep quoting some suspicious sources...and discrediting known historical sources...
I do not claim that all people absorbed by Slavs are proto-Slavic...



its clear that it is not my suggestion, but a suggestion of a historian who translated book of Pliny..
visit the link and read...
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0137:book=4:chapter= 27&highlight=sciri#note24



don't know how credible source this is, but:

this is order on Vistula from north to south...
there is no Finnish haplogroup N anywhere in mid Vistula...
Finnoi are not Finnish, but Fenni
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenni

keep in mind that Estonians and Finish people call Russia Vennema and Venäjä respectively
in my opinion this Fenni/Venni are root word for Slo-veni
slo could come from "slobodni" = free
perhaps ancestors of Slovaks and Slovenians...
iBoulanes expand to nortwest and Slo-Fenni to south

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/Vistula_river_map.png/300px-Vistula_river_map.png





Goths are not all population of all areas they keep under control...
this is also why Procopius mistakenly counts Alani (and Scirii) in Gothic nations...
it is like saying Kurds are turkish nation, because majority of them lives in Turkey....






don't mix Roman province ofIllyricum with actual Illyria...
actual Illyria most likely never extended much further north than Montenegro....

naming of provinces in Roman empire was intended to create melting pots in which actual ethnical identities would be weakened and eventually lost....e.g. province of Macedonia was more north than actual Macedonia.....its like if you would name half of Turkey and of Iran - Iranian province, and half of Turkey and half of Greece - as Turkic province, and half of Greece and half of Albania - Greece province... and everywhere only official language is latin... so you deliberatelly confuse national identities and create melting pot that speaks latin as that is only language both ethnicities in misnamed province will understand....

Pannonians are neither Illyrians nor Celts...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria

Pannoni that migrate northeast (towards Dacia) can easily be the same people as Fenni in Vistula region where Russian primary chronicle says Danubian Slavs settled...
do you see the similarity in tribal names Pannoni and Fenni?
and similarity with Finnish and Estonian words for Russians (Venni)
I do not say tribal name changed..
its just written down differently in different times and languages...






Russian primary chronicle is medival russian document that captures their memory about their origin
it is written down in year 1113
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Primary_Chronicle
here's the text
http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf


Alani are iranian (sarmatian) nation from Caucasus..
they were also living all over Europe..
went to Spain with Suebi and Vandali

iranian speaking Ossetians are considered to origin from Alani
their main haplogroup is G, which is in accordance with origin from Alani

interestingly in north Ossetians there is some I2a-Dinaric
and Serboi tribe was just northeast of them in Asian Sarmatia

this is why Serboi are considered Alanian/Sarmatian in origin...
but I make claim that Serboi/Serbi that Ptolomeus captures in Caucasus are those Serians that Seneca mention as living unguarded among Sarmatians...
such an expression strongly suggests that they are not Sarmatians...
also its clear that they are not Alani but just their neighbours

Jordanes puts Scirii in Alani... i think he does that because they are alies and have nearby settlements in Caucasus and perhaps elsewhere..
that is Serians like Alani have settlements in various not directly connected locations....

whole point of such a strategy is in trading...
Serians/Seres are known as traders across Asia...
Siraces on east shores of Black sea are traders....


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_nei ghbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg/800px-Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_nei ghbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg
click for larger map
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Colchis,_Iberia,_Albania,_and_the_neig hbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg


this is non-sense...
I am speaking about Vistula river area...


why don't you concentrate on something more real like the article below

http://balkancelts.wordpress.com/tag/peucini-tribes/

Who Were The Bastarnae ? (http://balkancelts.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/who-were-the-bastarnae/) Filed under: Archaeology (http://balkancelts.wordpress.com/category/archaeology/), History (http://balkancelts.wordpress.com/category/history/), Numismatics (http://balkancelts.wordpress.com/category/numismatics/) — 5 Comments (http://balkancelts.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/who-were-the-bastarnae/#comments)
August 3, 2012


Mac Congail




‘…the Bastarnæ, the bravest nation of all’.
(Appianus, Mithridatic Wars. 10:69)



The most enigmatic ‘barbarian’ people to appear in southeastern Europe in the late Iron Age are undoubtedly the Bastarnae (Βαστάρναι / Βαστέρναι).
While archaeological/numismatic evidence indicates that the Bastarnae tribes had reached the Danube Delta as early as the second half of the 4th c. BC (see ‘Bastarnae Coinage’ and ‘Peucini’ articles), they first appear in historical sources in connection with the events of 179 BC as allies of Philip V of Macedonia in his war with Rome (Livy 40:5, 57-58), and remain a constant factor in the history of southeastern Europe for over 500 years.
Due to the fact that archaeologists have failed to associate a particular archaeological culture with the Bastarnae, the ethnic origin of this people has hitherto remained shrouded in mystery, with a lack of clarity on whether they were initially of Scythian, Germanic or Celtic origin. However, as illustrated below, a chronological analysis of the ancient sources relating to the Bastarnae in general, and archaeological, numismatic and linguistic evidence from the territory of the Bastarnae Peucini tribe in particular, enables us to finally shed some light on this question.




http://balkancelts.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/bast-co1.jpg?w=640 (http://balkancelts.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/bast-co1.jpg)
Silver Bastarnae tetradrachma of the Huşi-Vovrieşti type.
Obverse: bearded head of Zeus right; reverse: horseman riding right, star before, symbols below (see ‘Bastarnae Coins’ article)






The Sources

Later authors such as Dio Cassius (3rd c. AD – Dio LI.23.3, 24.2) and Zosimus (late 5th/early 6th c. AD – Zosimus I.34) define the Bastarnae as ‘Scythians’, and to a great extent this is true. By the late Roman period the Bastarnae tribes had been living in the region vaguely referred to as ‘Scythia’ for over half a millennium, and mixing with the local tribes (‘mixed marriages are giving them to some extent the vile appearance of the Sarmatians’ – Tac. Ger. 46).


instead of talking to yourself about the venedi when they are proto-letts/latvian Venedi who came from the vends

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vends

more slavic destruction of the baltic people...is that what you want?

The venedi clearly are shown to be by the sea, they would definetly would have been sailors and also as per you fenni article - The Fenni are first mentioned by Cornelius Tacitus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelius_Tacitus) in Germania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germania_%28book%29) in 98 A.D. Their location is uncertain, due to the vagueness of Tacitus' account:"they (Venedi) overrun in their predatory excursions all the woody and mountainous tracts between the Peucini and the Fenni".[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenni#cite_note-1)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenni#cite_note-2)
fought against the incursion of the fenni and peucini. The fenni according to some historians are also present on the eastern banks of the middle vistula opposite the gepids on the west bank

Nobody1
10-04-13, 13:47
there are different branches of R1a...they are waves of different people..
the one you talk about expanded to Europe much earlier and is called "old Scandinavian branch"
http://r1a.org/3.htm#13

Good point
But unfortunately the exact R1a branch of Eulau is not known; but acc. to the Strontium isotope analyses (Teeth) the Males and Children were locals.


I claim based on Seneca's statement that Serians/Scirii rulled over Venedi... they were separate tribe but also rulled over Venedi influencing their genetics and language (and gene flow also went other way around as well)....

You would have to post a link to that claim, im not familiar with Seneca claiming that the Scirii are the Serians and that they (the Serians) rule over the Venedi (the Baltic Venedi?).

from what i know:
1.) Jordanes places the Scirii amongst the Alani
2.) Procopius places the Scirii amongst the Goths [with the Alani]
3.) Pliny places the Scirii on the Baltic

None claim any connections to the Venedi.

Slavic Origin theory

Very simple,

Procopius and Jordanes are the first to mention the Slavs [Sclaveni and Antes]
Procopius considers the Antes and the Sclaveni to be the ancient Spori and considers them to be Nomads.
Jordanes claims that the Antes and Sclaveni are both peoples of the ancient Baltic Venedi and together inhabit the land between Vistula, Dniester and Dnieper.

Jordanes - Getica (~550 AD)
Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes.
The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the Sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart.

So from Procopius and Jordanes we are informed that the Slavs are Antes and Sclaveni and if Jordanes is correct that the ancient baltic Venedi of Pliny, Ptolemy and Tacitus; are indeed the Proto-Slavs and the Antes and Sclaveni the off-springs; than the entire Balto-Slavic (Indo-European) complex is well explained and historically attested.

Some open questions remain:
1.) What does Tacitus mean by calling the Venedi [proto-slavs] Germanic and Sarmatian ?
Is Tacitus informing us that the proto-slavs [Venedi] are a mix of Germanic and Sarmatian ?
which would explain [B]Polish Sarmatism and Sarmatian origin theory
2.) Who are the Peuceni and Bastarnae ? are they equally proto-slavic ?
3.) Who are the Vandals (Vindili) ? and the Slavic Wends of Adam von Bremen ? - This is the real interesting Question!
4.) What role do the Sarmatians play in total in the Slavic origin ???
they are neighbours of the Venedi [Pliny] and "the Veneti have borrowed largely from Sarmatian ways" - Tacitus.

The Sarmatians couldnt just have disappeared, especially not between Dniester and Dnieper.

Nobody1
10-04-13, 14:01
correct me if I am wrong, but did'nt the Goths hate the scirii so much that they nearly wiped them out as a tribe in and around 100AD. I further recall, the remnants later on , joined the huns for protection as the huns warred the Goths

Not in 100 AD, much later.
Jordanes states that after the Scirii killed king Valamir the Ostrogoths went to war and annihilated the Scirii, Valamir was killed ~465 AD.

how yes no 3
10-04-13, 14:09
instead of talking to yourself about the venedi when they are proto-letts/latvian Venedi who came from the vends

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vends

more slavic destruction of the baltic people...is that what you want?

The venedi clearly are shown to be by the sea, they would definetly would have been sailors and also as per you fenni article - The Fenni are first mentioned by Cornelius Tacitus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelius_Tacitus) in Germania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germania_%28book%29) in 98 A.D. Their location is uncertain, due to the vagueness of Tacitus' account:"they (Venedi) overrun in their predatory excursions all the woody and mountainous tracts between the Peucini and the Fenni".[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenni#cite_note-1)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenni#cite_note-2)
fought against the incursion of the fenni and peucini. The fenni according to some historians are also present on the eastern banks of the middle vistula opposite the gepids on the west bank

well, let me point out the following from the link that you have used:


The Vends were a small tribe who lived in the twelfth-sixteenth centuries in the area around the town of Wenden (now Cēsis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C4%93sis)) in what is now north-central Latvia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvia)
...
Prior to their arrival in the area of Wenden in the 12th century, the Vends are believed to have settled in Wynda county (Latvian: Ventava) by the Venta River (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venta_River) near the present city of Ventspils (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventspils) in western Latvia. Their proximity to more numerous Finnic and Baltic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_languages) tribes inclined the Vends to ally with the German crusaders (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Crusades)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vends

Existence of Vends is in fact proof that tribal name Venedi is not Balt related.

Because those Vends:
1) are small tribe surrounded by Baltic and Finnish
2) they feel jeopardised from Balts and Finnish and allie with Germans
3) name of their town is completely changed when it was overtaken by Balts, suggesting that name Vend was completely foreign to Balts

the glotochronolgy shows that .Bulgarian is estimated to separate from proto Slavic around 130AD and east Slavic at 270 AD..method shows that serbo-croat branch splits from west Slavic around 670 AD which fits with known historical facts....
[Starostin, presented in Santa Fe, 2004]

Baltic languages are very similar to Balto-Slavic and Slavic languages start of like dialect of this language
this implies that Baltic community has continued living in isolation, while proto-Slavic area was exposed to interaction with tribes of different languages and was therefore changing faster....

furthermore east Slavic (language of Anti) spliting from proto-Slavic branch as early as 250 AD tells us that Slavs were at that time already in central Europe....

So, Venedi = proto-Slavs
and I believe they have migrated to central Europe from Pannonia and Balkan as Russian primary chronicle and Dalmil's chronicle suggest... as this migration was caused by spreading of Roman empire, we can set the time frame of the movement to the beginnng of first century AD or somewhat earlier

as I have explained, this is in genetics represented with displacement of R1-M458 out of its high diversity area (ex-Yugoslavia) and with appearence of I2a-Din in Venedi and Sarmatian area but not in Baltic areas...

considering that Antes have somewhat different tribal names but still with recognizable derivation from original tribal name Veneti, we can postulate that Ants lived north of Danube near Black sea coast even before Danubian Slavs moved to north... they spoke the same language with Danubian Slavs suggesting that there was continuity of proto-Slavs along Danube (that is north of it in east parts) for long period of time ....

this fits well with Jordanes saying all of early Slavs (Venedi, Sclaveni and Antes) are from Venethi race...
and with account of Russian primary chronicle saying

Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie

the only reason you try so much to undermine Venethi origin of Slavic people, is that it rightfully puts strong question mark on who were actually Illyrians...

I am fine with idea that they were not proto-Slavic, but I believe their actual spread was never more north from Montenegro...

how yes no 3
10-04-13, 14:47
You would have to post a link to that claim, im not familiar with Seneca claiming that the Scirii are the Serians and that they (the Serians) rule over the Venedi (the Baltic Venedi?).



[369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.


Seneca - Thyestes
27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html (http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html)

Seneca says that Serians live around Danube and also rule over Scythians and have outpost in Caucaus among Sarmatians (hence they are not Sarmatians) and even on red sea....
"for fleece famous" - is reference to the area of Seres in south Siberia / northwest China where silk was made...

I claimed that Scirii is same tribal name as Serians
because if Sclaveni = Sloveni
than Scirii/Scirians = Sirians or Serians

but my interpretation that Venedi are Scythians is probably wrong...

Venedi are probably also Serians (as I have explained this is probably religion oriented name related to Dagon worship and name of his wife Ishara/Ishtar/Danu(Asura)/slavic Zorya ) and according to Russian primary chronicle they move from Danube (river related to godess Danu ... it is also known as Isthar) area to the area of Vistula in times when Roman empire spreads to their areas (first century AD)...

in fact, I make mistake trying to relate Serians to I2a-Din... Scirii might be I2a-Din, but Serians in general are more likely to be R1a


Serians trading routes and settlements in Asia fit well with spread of R1a... this happened long time ago...

and corresponds to eastern eurasian branch of R1a
http://r1a.org/3.htm#11

e.g. subbranch of eastern eurasian branch found in modern Kyrgiz is dated to have separated from main branch in 1000 BC
which is exactly when the trading center Sayram came to existence together with town of same name in northwest China... those are Seres or "Serians for the fleece famous"..Seres is in narrow sense area in northwest China where silk was made...in wider sense, it is an arc from that place to India....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayram_(city)





Slavic Origin theory

Very simple,

Procopius and Jordanes are the first to mention the Slavs [Sclaveni and Antes]
Procopius considers the Antes and the Sclaveni to be the ancient Spori and considers them to be Nomads.
Jordanes claims that the Antes and Sclaveni are both peoples of the ancient Baltic Venedi and together inhabit the land between Vistula, Dniester and Dnieper.

ancient Spori might be same thing as with Sciri - corruption of name Serian

J]


So from Procopius and Jordanes we are informed that the Slavs are Antes and Sclaveni and if Jordanes is correct that the ancient baltic Venedi of Pliny, Ptolemy and Tacitus; are indeed the Proto-Slavs and the Antes and Sclaveni the off-springs; than the entire Balto-Slavic (Indo-European) complex is well explained and historically attested.
exactly,Jordanes clearrly pinpoints that they are all from the race of Venethi, but many people on this forum keep denying any link of proto-Slavs with Venedi and Venethic race...
reason to that is political... Albanian current conquest towards north is based on them learning that they are Illyrians and that their country was destroyed by Slavic invaders....so they cannot allow that proto-Slavs are in any relation to Venethi as there are speculations of Illyrians being Venethi related...




Some open questions remain:
1.) What does Tacitus mean by calling the Venedi [proto-slavs] Germanic and Sarmatian ?
Is Tacitus informing us that the proto-slavs [Venedi] are a mix of Germanic and Sarmatian ?
Tacitus has no good criteria.... his criteria is not language, but whether people live in houses (= germans) or as nomads (=Sarmatians)


which would explain [B]Polish Sarmatism and Sarmatian origin theory
2.) Who are the Peuceni and Bastarnae ? are they equally proto-slavic ?
3.) Who are the Vandals (Vindili) ? and the Slavic Wends of Adam von Bremen ? - This is the real interesting
4.) What role do the Sarmatians play in total in the Slavic origin ???


good questions


they are neighbours of the Venedi [Pliny] and "the Veneti have borrowed largely from Sarmatian ways" - Tacitus.


what he says is that their culture is alike to sarmatian, but they live in houses so they cannot be Sarmatians and hence must be germans...


The Sarmatians couldnt just have disappeared, especially not between Dniester and Dnieper.
maybe they were just warriors and rulling elite....
so their iranian language was lost with time...

many ancient people disappeared...
Alani were Sarmatians...
today iranic speaking Osetians claim origin from Alani and I think rightfully...

gyms
10-04-13, 15:50
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophism This is for you "how yes no 3"! And an other one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy

zanipolo
11-04-13, 07:42
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophism This is for you "how yes no 3"! And an other one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy

i can only agree

zanipolo
11-04-13, 10:14
well, let me point out the following from the link that you have used:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vends

Existence of Vends is in fact proof that tribal name Venedi is not Balt related.

Because those Vends:
1) are small tribe surrounded by Baltic and Finnish
2) they feel jeopardised from Balts and Finnish and allie with Germans
3) name of their town is completely changed when it was overtaken by Balts, suggesting that name Vend was completely foreign to Balts

the glotochronolgy shows that .Bulgarian is estimated to separate from proto Slavic around 130AD and east Slavic at 270 AD..method shows that serbo-croat branch splits from west Slavic around 670 AD which fits with known historical facts....
[Starostin, presented in Santa Fe, 2004]

Baltic languages are very similar to Balto-Slavic and Slavic languages start of like dialect of this language
this implies that Baltic community has continued living in isolation, while proto-Slavic area was exposed to interaction with tribes of different languages and was therefore changing faster....

furthermore east Slavic (language of Anti) spliting from proto-Slavic branch as early as 250 AD tells us that Slavs were at that time already in central Europe....

So, Venedi = proto-Slavs
and I believe they have migrated to central Europe from Pannonia and Balkan as Russian primary chronicle and Dalmil's chronicle suggest... as this migration was caused by spreading of Roman empire, we can set the time frame of the movement to the beginnng of first century AD or somewhat earlier

as I have explained, this is in genetics represented with displacement of R1-M458 out of its high diversity area (ex-Yugoslavia) and with appearence of I2a-Din in Venedi and Sarmatian area but not in Baltic areas...

considering that Antes have somewhat different tribal names but still with recognizable derivation from original tribal name Veneti, we can postulate that Ants lived north of Danube near Black sea coast even before Danubian Slavs moved to north... they spoke the same language with Danubian Slavs suggesting that there was continuity of proto-Slavs along Danube (that is north of it in east parts) for long period of time ....

this fits well with Jordanes saying all of early Slavs (Venedi, Sclaveni and Antes) are from Venethi race...
and with account of Russian primary chronicle saying


the only reason you try so much to undermine Venethi origin of Slavic people, is that it rightfully puts strong question mark on who were actually Illyrians...

I am fine with idea that they were not proto-Slavic, but I believe their actual spread was never more north from Montenegro...


LOL, old theories still persist

read link on what the fabricated venethi is
http://www.academia.edu/227794/Hiding_behind_a_piece_of_tapestry_Jordanes_and_the _Slavic_Venethi

how yes no 3
11-04-13, 12:26
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophism This is for you "how yes no 3"! And an other one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy

I assure you it is not sophism, but it can be fallacy to some extent.

I would like to use opportunity to apologize to Albanians for my paranoia about certain forum members being so against recognizing that Slavs are of Venethi race due to possible link of Venethi and Illyrians...Well, I am from Serbia and after events in 90s people from Serbia tend to be paranoic about conspiracies against them and the truth.

Regarding Albanians, I believe that modern Albanian language stems mostly from the language of Dardanians who have escaped romanisation by moving to the mountains of northern Albania during Roman empire. While there must be considerable Illyrian genetics in Albania proper, I think that trying to link Albanian language to Illyrian is fallacy. Reason to think so is that from dozen of Illyrian words whose meaning is captured in acient texts most have nothing to do with Albanan. Since Illyrians lived on sea coasts that were covered with Roman empire settlements, I think those people were romanized and the language was lost...

now, let me explain my reasoning about Slavic people and than we can together try to determine where is fallacy in my thinking....

1) Bavarian geographer says that state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it...

For me this is a clue that search for Slavic origin should be directed towards Zeruiani who are either proto-Slavs or their overlords... but who are they? if their state is big it must be recorded in history

2) Seneca speaks of Serians with description that gives impression of giant state all over Euroasia. Now Serians and Zeruiani is easily same tribal name recorded in German and Latin...

3) Seneca mentions that they are for fleece famous, which relates them to Seres area of northwest China and arc from that place to India....this is ancient trading route... so we can confirm Serians in Asia

4) Seneca mention Serians in relation to Danube and rulling over scattered Scythians
rulling over scattered Scythians would easily pinpoint to Sarmatians, which would fit nice with Jordanes claiming that Scirii (Scirians) are Alans (=Sarmatians)

5) but Seneca says they live also in Caucaus unguarded from Sarmatians
this means they are not Sarmatians but perhaps related to them or allied with them...
we also know that Scirii attack Goths and expect Sarmatians to help them, but since such help doesnot arrive they are in Black sea area almost destroyed by Goths

6) Dalmil's chronicle says that Czechs origin from Poles who lived in Croatia that is a land in Serbian language area, from this I made link that perhaps Serians = Serbs.. Serboi and also Siraces tribes are captured in Caucasus just northeast and northwest of Alani, which explains why they may be seen as Alans

7) Serians around Danube and Serians rulling over scattered Scythians are puzzle....
only big tribes with related names are Scordisci on Danube and Scirii close to Venedi
so I have assumed that Scirii (and perhaps Scordisc) are those Serians

8) Russian primary chronicle says early Slavs lived along Danube and moved to Vistula region due to spreading of Roman empire and it explicitly names Serbs and Croats among those tribes...

9) along Danube in that time are Scordisci and they didnot stay there as Strabo says

The Scordisci lived along the Ister and were divided into two tribes called the Great Scordisci and the Little Scordisci. The former lived between two rivers that empty into the Ister — the Noarus,342 (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7E*.html#note342) which flows past Segestica, and the Margus343 (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7E*.html#note343) (by some called the Bargus), whereas the Little Scordisci lived on the far side of this river,344 (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7E*.html#note344) and their territory bordered on that of the Triballi and the Mysi.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7E*.html


so, he says they lived along Danube...
thus, Scordisci might be among people that Russian primary chronicle mentions moving from Danube to Vistula area and thus giving Scirii...

10) Karlovac rodoslov says that Serbs worshiped Dagon and that Dacians got their name after Dagon, Serbs got their name after Ser. Now this implies that Serbs are Serians. But who is Ser?

Ser is wife of Dagon, and from what I can see known in mythology under names Isthar, Ishara, Danu (Asura) and i think in Slavic mythology Dagon and Ser are transformed to Dajbog and Zorya...

curiously Ishara is in Asia worshiped by Hurrians and Syrians...
while we have same worship in Serbs that I link to Sciri and Hirri

Danube is linked to this river goddess, both via name origin from Danu and in its old name Ishtar.... so it makes sense that early Serbs lived around Danube as Russian primary chronicle states



11) I2a-Din south is young branch and unlike I2a-Din north that is spread accross east Europe, it only exists in Serb settled areas, in Bohemia from where Serbs came to Serbia, and hotspots in two locations around Vistula - upper and lower Vistula which does match supposed settlemt areas of Scirii....

also biggest hotspot of I2a-Din is Galicia, clearly named after Galatians or Celts
Scordisci are also known as Galatae according to Strabo...


12) so far so good.....but Scordisci are Celtic speakers, Scirii is not celtic tribal name...
and west Slavs according to Dalmil's chronicle live in area of Serbian language...

13) furthermore, trade routes in Asia that match locations of Serians are related to eastern euroasian R1a and not to I2a-Din....

14) furthermore, Scirii are of disputed origin - mentioned as Goths, Alani, turkic... as I explained Alani (Sarmatian) makes most sense... but according to Seneca, Serians dare to live unguarded among Sarmatians which implies they are not Sarmatians..

15) who are Scytians that Seneca's Serians rulle over?
if Serians are Scirii than they might have rulled over Venedi...
but are Venedi same people as Scythians? and what is their language Baltic or proto-Slavic....

16) chroncicle of priest Dukljanin says Serbs and Croats are Goths in origin...it also says that Bulgarians were big settlement wave that spoke the same language

17) language study of common Slavic words in Slavic languages shows that Bulgarian split from common Slavic around 130 AD, while east Slavic separated around 270 AD and Serbo-Croat split from west Slavic around 670 AD...

18) I have tried to explain it with genetics...
Venedi and Antes would origin from Carpathian branches of R1a

people moving from Danube area to Vistula would bring R1a-M458 (exclusively European branch and ancient old in Serbia) and I2a-Din... and would affect language....
but it may have been other way around as well, that new settlers accepted the language of people they settled among....

so, somewhere in points 12-18 I got lost in making a theory....as there was too much contradicting data

zanipolo
11-04-13, 13:16
[QUOTE=how yes no 3;406149

Regarding Albanians, I believe that modern Albanian language stems mostly from the language of Dardanians who have escaped romanisation by moving to the mountains of northern Albania during Roman empire. While there must be considerable Illyrian genetics in Albania proper, I think that trying to link Albanian language to Illyrian is fallacy. Reason to think so is that from dozen of Illyrian words whose meaning is captured in acient texts most have nothing to do with Albanan. Since Illyrians lived on sea coasts that were covered with Roman empire settlements, I think those people were romanized and the language was lost...

[/QUOTE]

One of the only things I agree with you on.


The moderator ( IF HE EXISTS) I am still waiting for my notes to be placed..........has ruined my notes to you.
Anyway, I really, really do not understand why you ignore the logical people called the Bastanae as proto-slav, they lived nearly exactly where the current slavic historian say is the original slavic homeland.......what have you got against this.?

how yes no 3
11-04-13, 16:43
One of the only things I agree with you on.


The moderator ( IF HE EXISTS) I am still waiting for my notes to be placed..........has ruined my notes to you.
Anyway, I really, really do not understand why you ignore the logical people called the Bastanae as proto-slav, they lived nearly exactly where the current slavic historian say is the original slavic homeland.......what have you got against this.?

Bastarnae are way too small tribe...
they are not influential nor strong enough nor culturally developed enough to impose the language to so many people......so Bastarnae may be among proto-Slavic people, but not the key core of them...

it must be a tribe with large state and Bavarian geographer leaves data that the state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it... and this large state is to certain extent confirmed by Seneca's accounts of Serians in large areas of Europe and Asia... so, Serians/Zeruiani are in my opinion key to Slavic origin...
Karlovac geneaology (rodoslov) expalins that all Serbs worshiped Dagon and related to that were named after Ser, which also pinpoints to Serians..
but could Serians have been the same tribal name as Scirii/Scirians (linguistically this is the same logic as roman historians writing Sloveni as Sclaveni)...and would Serians be overlords of proto-Slavic people or among proto-Slavic people....

playing word associations....
if Scirii and Hirri would be origin of tribal names of to Serbs and Croats, Bastarnae could be origin of Bosnian name...
but even I do not think its very likely...

I am curious whether Dacians ...
note that if we look genetics of Romanians, it is very close to the one of Serbs....

Karlovac rodoslov says


"All Serbs worshipped Dagon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagon). From Dagon the Dagonians and Dacians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacians) received their names; From Ser, all the Serbs.""

such a statement suggests some relation of Serbs with Dacians, at least regarding religion...
but it also clearly sets them apart

to me it makes sense that Ser people (people who worship Ishtar/Ishara/Ser/Asura/Danu) live around the river named after Danu/Asura/Ser/IshtarIshara...
this river is Danube...
and that Dacians live near them....


in lower Danube on one coast are Dacians on other are Thracians and Scordisci
in upper Danube Scordisci are on both sides and Dacians are their neighbours...

.. among Thracians is also tribe with name Serdi that comes to them from area of Scordisci.... Scordisci are Celts....that origin from Boii and De administrando imperio says that Serbs come from land that they in own language call Boiki (and that based on further description can be only Bohemia where another I2a-Din south hotspot is together with set of place names containing Srby) where they have also originally dwellt..

furthermore if Serian is about religion...how would you call Boii that are Serians by religion
perhaps Serian Boii or SerBoii?


also -dava endings of Dacian towns makes me curious...
tvdjava in serbo-croat = fortress, stronghold
which could be coin word from tvrd(strong) + dava

but fortress in other Slavic languages
kreposti - russian
forteca- ukrainian
krepasci - belarus
pevnost - slovak & czech
twierdza - polish
trdnjava - slovenian


regarding polish ending -dza, diza is thracian word for fortiified settlement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language

so, polish have thracian ending -diza
serbs and croats dacian ending - dava
slovenians have ending -njava or -dnjava

and in other languages it is completely different - in ukrainian its loan word perhaps from Vikings... that founded Kievan Rus state in teritory of Ukraine...

now time for some word associations:

before reading be aware that the place names named after tribes are never found in mid of their living space but a bit further from its borders, where their settlements stand out by their ethnicity...

in west most Dacia in Banat region there was stronghold Zuridava, which could be Seri(an) dava (Serian fortress) as Karlovac rodoslov sets Serbs as named after Ser and related in some way to Dacians...



the Danish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_people) philologist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philologist) and historian Gudmund Schütte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gudmund_Sch%C3%BCtte) to assume that Ziridava and Zurobara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zurobara) are one and the same.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziridava#cite_note-FOOTNOTESch.C3.BCtte191791-93-7) This idea is deemed erroneous alongside with many other assumed duplications of names, by the Romanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanians) historian and archaeologistVasile Pârvan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasile_P%C3%A2rvan) in his work Getica.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziridava#cite_note-FOOTNOTEP.C3.A2rvan1926252-8) Pârvan reviewed all localities mentioned in Ptolemy's Geographia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographia), analyzing and verifying all data available to him at the time. He points out that Ziri and Zuro (meaning water) are the roots of two different Geto (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gaeti&action=edit&redlink=1)-Dacian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_language)words.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziridava#cite_note-FOOTNOTEP.C3.A2rvan1926253-9)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziridava

Ziri means water in Dacian
and Ser or Ishara or Istar or Danu (Asura) is water goddess in indo-european and middle east religions...


Zurobara (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek): Ζουρόβαρα) was a Dacian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacians) town located in today's Banat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banat) region in Romania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania).
...
Unlike many other Dacian towns mentioned by Ptolemy, Zurobara is missing from Tabula Peutingeriana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Peutingeriana) (1st–4th century AD), an itinerarium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itinerarium) showing the cursus publicus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursus_publicus), the road network in the Roman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zurobara#cite_note-FOOTNOTETabula_PeutingerianaSegmentum_VIII.2C3-4)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zurobara

it may have been missing because perhaps people who lived in area moved elsewhere (perhaps to Vistula according to Russian primary chronicle)... note that Strabo says how Scordisci lived along Danube...



Zurobara name (that could have been a spelling variant for Zuropara[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zurobara#cite_note-8)) was interpreted initially as "strong city" where: the ending term of name "bara" / "vara" means ‘city’ (the same as Thracian "para") and the first term of the name "Zuro" means ‘strong’ . Zuro ‘strong’ is also found in the name of Zyraxes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zyraxes), a Dacian king,.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zurobara#cite_note-9)[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zurobara#cite_note-10)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zurobara

now this is Dacian town far from Thrace but with Thracian ending?
or maybe settlement of Zuro people..
"bara" is used in Slavic for swamp
and there are place names where "bara" is second word

so maybe this is not fortified place, but a settlement near swamp...
so, perhaps, Zurobara = Serian swamp



hence, we can conceive that somewhere near west Dacia were perhaps people with tribal name Zuro/Ziri...


Zyraxes was a Getae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getae) king who ruled north Dobruja (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dobruja) in the 1st century BC.His capital, Genucla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genucla) was besieged by the Romans in 28 BC, but he managed to escape and flee to his Scythian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians) allies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zyraxes


TheGetae (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek): Γέται, singular Γέτης; Bulgarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language): Гети; Romanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_language): Geţi, singular Get) was the name given by the Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks) to several Thracian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians) tribes inhabiting the regions to either side of the Lower Danube (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube), in what is today northern Bulgaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria) and Romania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania).
...
Strabo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strabo), one of the first ancient sources to mention Getae and Dacians, stated in his Geographica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographica) (ca. 7 BC-20 AD) that the Dacians lived in the western parts of Dacia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia), "towards Germania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germania) and the sources of the Danube", and the Getae in the eastern parts, towards the Black Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea), both south and north of the Danube.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getae#cite_note-FOOTNOTEStrabo20_ADVII_3.2C13-1) The ancient geographer also wrote that the Dacians and Getae spoke the same language[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getae#cite_note-FOOTNOTEStrabo20_ADVII_3.2C14-2), after stating the same about Getae and Thracians.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getae#cite_note-cah3-3)

so, Getae, Dacians and Thracians speak the same language according to Strabo...

could Dacians have been the Scythians that Serians rule over...Scythia is name used for teritory of Ukraine though and often for people living in that area regardless of their origin....so maybe this was about Galicia area probably named after some Celtic people....note that Galicia is probably largest hotspot of I2a-Din


if Scordisci are Ser - people and resulted in Scirii when they moved to Vistula and tribal name SerBoii later, questions is who gave them Slavic language and when?

because Dalmil's chronicle suggests that it is Serbian language that Poles, Czechs and Croats speak.....
so either Dalmil's chronicle is wrong or Scordisci accepted language prior to mixing with west Slavs....

how yes no 3
11-04-13, 19:04
and who are original Serians/Zeruiani/Zoryans (Slavic name of Ser is Zorya) ? the ones who were holding trading routes in Asia are not I2a-Din but R1a branch that in my opinion set of from Europe in times as far as sea people conquest...and first settles in Kurdish area and from there spreads to Syria and to south to red sea and persian gulf and to east to reach northwest China and Kyrgyz area around 1000BC and make there silk producing area known as Seres that besides northwest China also includied arc to India ....in my opinion those original Serians were spreading the Ser/Asura/Danu/Ishtar/Ishara worship to Asia....and were PIE people setting the basis of PIE religion....
http://r1a.org/3.htm#11

has Seneca speaking of Serians based it on same tribal name or he had data that Serians of Asia and Serians of Europe were same Serians (same language and culture)?

what if their common name is a remain from PIE people times and there is no connection between Serians of Asia and Europe?

gyms
12-04-13, 08:58
"also biggest hotspot of I2a-Din is Galicia, clearly named after Galatians or Celts
Scordisci are also known as Galatae according to Strabo..."
"The Ukrainian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_language) name Halych (Галич) (Halicz in Polish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_language), Галич in Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language), Galic in Latin) comes from the Khwalis or Kaliz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalyzians) who occupied the area from the time of the Magyars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyars)."!The Chalyzians or Khalyzians or Khalis or Khwalis (Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): Khwarezmian, Byzantine Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Greek): Χαλίσιοι, Khalisioi, Magyar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_language): Kaliz (pronounced Kalish)) were a people mentioned by the 12th-century Byzantine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire) historian John Kinnamos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Cinnamus).
Kinnamos in his epitome twice mentions Khalisioi in the Hungarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_people) army. He first describes them as practicing Mosaic law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah); though whether they were actually Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew) is unclear. Other editions state that they were Muslims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim). "

zanipolo
12-04-13, 12:22
Bastarnae are way too small tribe...
they are not influential nor strong enough nor culturally developed enough to impose the language to so many people......so Bastarnae may be among proto-Slavic people, but not the key core of them...

.

LOL..too small, you a joking right!

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=qpb3JdwuDQIC&pg=PA470&dq=bastarnae&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Zt9nUZaqCMnBkwXVl4HQAg&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=bastarnae&f=false

they had huge armies, huge territories.

You must be anti-germanic

I can link many posts......... the lands they covered was from east side of the Carpathian mountains to the Dniester river...actually original names of the Carpathians was Monte Bastarnae


powerful naion
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=8L2S0kuhDTsC&pg=PA61&dq=bastarnae&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Zt9nUZaqCMnBkwXVl4HQAg&ved=0CFEQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=bastarnae&f=false

how yes no 3
12-04-13, 12:45
"also biggest hotspot of I2a-Din is Galicia, clearly named after Galatians or Celts
Scordisci are also known as Galatae according to Strabo..."
"The Ukrainian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_language) name Halych (Галич) (Halicz in Polish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_language), Галич in Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language), Galic in Latin) comes from the Khwalis or Kaliz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalyzians) who occupied the area from the time of the Magyars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magyars)."!The Chalyzians or Khalyzians or Khalis or Khwalis (Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): Khwarezmian, Byzantine Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Greek): Χαλίσιοι, Khalisioi, Magyar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_language): Kaliz (pronounced Kalish)) were a people mentioned by the 12th-century Byzantine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire) historian John Kinnamos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Cinnamus).
Kinnamos in his epitome twice mentions Khalisioi in the Hungarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_people) army. He first describes them as practicing Mosaic law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah); though whether they were actually Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew) is unclear. Other editions state that they were Muslims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim). "
thanks for info...
I didnot know this... was sure that it ought to be related to Galatea in some way.... guess people see what they want to see and I am not exception there...

how yes no 3
12-04-13, 12:50
LOL..too small, you a joking right!

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=qpb3JdwuDQIC&pg=PA470&dq=bastarnae&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Zt9nUZaqCMnBkwXVl4HQAg&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=bastarnae&f=false

they had huge armies, huge territories.

You must be anti-germanic

I can link many posts......... the lands they covered was from east side of the Carpathian mountains to the Dniester river...actually original names of the Carpathians was Monte Bastarnae


powerful naion
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=8L2S0kuhDTsC&pg=PA61&dq=bastarnae&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Zt9nUZaqCMnBkwXVl4HQAg&ved=0CFEQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=bastarnae&f=false

if they held large state in that area, than your hypothesis makes sense...

I never heard that Carpathians were called Monte Basternae...
but I know Carpathians were also Montes Serrorum (e.g. in writings of Ammianus Marcellinus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammianus_Marcellinus)) and Harvaða fjöllum (in Viking stories), and that east Carpatians were Montes Sarmatici, while west were Carpataes...and some think current name is derived from Carpi...

but I believe that Russian primary chronicle and Dalmil's chronicle record memory of Slavs living in Danube area prior to moving to Vistula region...

and am still puzzled with Zeruiani whose state was so big that all Slavs come from it and inclined to think that that is where origin of early Slavs needs to be searched for....

I also find curious that Poles use Thracian ending for fortified settlement while Serbs and Croats use Dacian one...

also Jordanes mention of Sclaveni, Venedi and Antes as Venethic race cannot be without any reason...

key issue with early Slavs is pinpointing the source of language....and data regarding that is confusing... maybe Serbian language that Dalmil's chronicle mentions as language of Poles and Croats is not about modern Serbs but about old time PIE speaking Serians which was later adopted to Serbs as according to Karlovac genealogy Serbs derive the tribal name from Ser and are thus Ser people....

if I look for those Serians based on genetics in Asia...it is eastern eurasian R1a (I cannot make clear link there but I think there was also J2 component there as J2 seems to stretches along same area)

this old R1a branch is not (just) Slavic related but older and stretches from UK to India...perhaps those ancient Serians/Zeruiani/Zoryani were overlords of many people and their language gave birth to different peoples and after them for long times there were still tribes in various nations whose name was Dagon worship related and derived from Ser/Asura/Danu/Ishtar/Ishara...

anyway, i came to the point where it is difficult to make clear theory without contradictions...
so, I think its time for me to make some break from guessing and wait for more results from genetic and historical data...

gyms
12-04-13, 16:38
"also Jordanes mention of Sclaveni, Venedi and Antes as Venethic race cannot be without any reason..."
I´m sorry,but Jordanes is not a trustworthy source.About Antes:unfortunately such ethnonyms as Antes don´t tell us very much.The Iranian word anta,ossetian aeddae/aendae means (people on the) border/borderer/borderland,margin,outside.

how yes no 3
12-04-13, 19:05
"also Jordanes mention of Sclaveni, Venedi and Antes as Venethic race cannot be without any reason..."

I´m sorry,but Jordanes is not a trustworthy source.About Antes:unfortunately such ethnonyms as Antes don´t tell us very much.The Iranian word anta,ossetian aeddae/aendae means (people on the) border/borderer/borderland,margin,outside.

that is actually quite interesting data regarding this topic....

as I wrote before

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27558-origin-of-tribal-names

PIE words related to tribal names of Serbs and Wends and Venedi are:

*uend = turn
*suerb = turn

i was explaining that those tribal names meant "border" people...
because tribal names such as "Wend/Serb/Sorb/Sarban" appear on ends of R1a spread
and have postulated that word *uend is even now preserved in e.g. english as "end"



and related to this it is Slavic custom even today to give names related to "end" to its border people
end = kraj in Slavic

and hence names like:
Ukraine, vojna krajina (military frontier of Austor-Hungarian empire in east parts of what is now Croatia and modern day "srpska krajina" from 90s in that area), Timocka krajina (east most Serbia), Bela Krajina (in Slovenia's region bordering Croatia)....


so,
Antes= border people
Serbs = border people
Wends/Venedi = border people

and all of those gave Slavs... that's curious...
while Sclaveni are in the core surrounded with these people on borders that needs to be defended...

so all together are Sclaveni/Sloveni, which is the name of the core....



original name of the core is perhaps preserved today in Slovenians
(called Slovenci n Slavic languages)

note that Dacians that are not subjugated by Roam empire take name "free Dacians"

in same way "slo" is easily abbreviation from "slobodni" = free
because while border people exist, the core is free...

so,perhaps Slovenci (/sloˈʋeːntsi/) = free venti?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg/483px-Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg


Venethi probably had different meaning though

*uent = blowing
*uentos = wind

Jordanes:

Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes.

this "wind" reference always remind me on myth from ancient Greece and Rome about wind gods (Anemoi in Greek, Venti in latin)

Boreas - north wind
Eurus - east wind
Zephyrus - west wind born in caves of Thrace and his son Carpus
Notus - south wind

let me try to map this myth to ancient tribes...

in caves of Thrace are born Serdi... they were originally Celtic tribe from Scordisci area, but entered Thrace and were thrachanized or born as Thracians there....

Carpus may be Carpi... which are in that case, mapping the relation from the myth above, offspring of Serdi....

most north one Borea would be Buri (Dacian Buri - different from Germanic Buri)...


minor wind gods (little Venti) are


Kaikias was the Greek deity of the northeast (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_direction) wind. He is shown as a bearded man with a shield full of hail-stones, and his name is cognate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognate) to the Latin word caecus "blind", that is, he was seen as a "dark" wind. The Roman spelling of Kaikias was Caecius.

Apeliotes, sometimes known to the Romans as Apeliotus, was the Greek deity of the southeast (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_directions) wind. As this wind was thought to cause a refreshing rain particularly beneficial to farmers, he is often depicted wearing gumboots and carrying fruit, draped in a light cloth concealing some flowers or grain. He is cleanshaven, with curly hair and a friendly expression. Because Apeliotes was a minor god, he was often synthesized with Eurus, the east wind.Subsolanus, Apeliotes' Roman counterpart, was also sometimes considered the east wind, in Vulturnus' place.
Skiron, or Skeiron, was the Greek god of the northwest (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_directions) wind. His name is related to Skirophorion, the last of the three months of spring in the Attic festival calendar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attic_calendar). He is depicted as a bearded man tilting a cauldron, representing the onset of winter. His Roman counterpart is Caurus, or Corus. Corus was also one of the oldest Roman wind-deities, and numbered among the di indigetes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Di_indigetes) ("indigenous gods"), a group of abstract and largely minor numinous (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numen)entities.
Lips was the Greek deity of the southwest (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_directions) wind, often depicted holding the stern (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stern) of a ship. His Roman equivalent was Afer ventus ("African wind"), orAfricus, due to Africa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa_(Roman_province)) being to the southwest of Italy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy). This name is thought to be derived from the name of a North African (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa) tribe, the Afri.
Other minor wind deities included:


Argestes "clearing", a wind blowing from about the same direction as Skiron (Caurus), and probably another name for it
Aparctias, sometimes called the north wind instead of Boreas (Septentrionarius)
Circius or Thrascius, the north-north-west wind
Euronotus, the wind blowing from the direction, as its very name suggests, between Euros and Notos, that is, a south-south-east wind (Euroauster to the Romans)
Iapyx (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapyx), the north-west wind about the same as Caurus
Libonotus, the south-south-west wind, known as Austro-Africus to the Romans
Meses, another name for the north-west wind
Olympias, apparently identified with Skiron/Argestes
Phoenicias, another name for the south-east wind ("the one blowing from Phoenicia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia)", due to this land lying to the south-east of Greece)


NE - Kaikias = Caucoense or Cauci
NW - Iapux => Iapodes
NW - Meses -> Moesians
SW - Lips -> Liburnians
SSW Libonotus = Lib + Notus
NW - Skiron -> Scordisci or Skires?
Argetes wind blowing from same direction as Skiron = Tyrgetes (tribe south of Skires)


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/AtlBalk.e-150.jpg/300px-AtlBalk.e-150.jpg


essentially, following the mapping of Venti wind gods to tribes, the ancient race of Venethi, that is according to Jordanes origin of early Slavs, are:

Thracians, Dacians and few north Dalmatia tribes..

adamo
12-04-13, 20:29
Serbs and Croats do not have Germanic origins. 40 or so percent of Croats and 35-45% of Serbs are haplogroup I-M423, the Balkans haplogroup I. Some studies onSerbs even show frequencies as high as 50%. These men are indigenous to the Balkans and have been in that area for thousands of years. I personally call them "southern proto-Europeans". They share a same haplogroup but different subclade as their Scandinavian I cousins that dominate Sweden and Norway (northern proto-Europeans). Croats have slightly higher Slavic R1a blood, 30-38% or so versus Serbia's 15-20% of men. Serbia has significantly higher north-African blood ( Balkans haplogroup E found in Greece, Albania, Bulgaria, Macedonia, is also found in Serbs at about 20-25% of Serbian males.) overall, I-M423 and R1a dominate most Croatian men and I-M423 with almost exact levels of R1a and E ( slightly more E than R1a ) dominates Serbian men. "Germanic" blood is very low in both these countries with haplogroup R1b around 10- max 15% in both countries and haplogroup I1a ( I don't even refer to this as Germanic I just call it Nordic or Nordic haplogroup I) being low in both countries. They are both predominantly Southern proto European (balkanian I) and Slavic, although Serbia has more haplogroup E presence and maybe 10% more I-M423 whereas Croatia has maybe 10% more R1a.

zanipolo
12-04-13, 21:25
"also Jordanes mention of Sclaveni, Venedi and Antes as Venethic race cannot be without any reason..."
I´m sorry,but Jordanes is not a trustworthy source.About Antes:unfortunately such ethnonyms as Antes don´t tell us very much.The Iranian word anta,ossetian aeddae/aendae means (people on the) border/borderer/borderland,margin,outside.

as per my post #63, it is explained that the word Venethi is a fabricated word created for the first time by Jordanes to celebrate the gothic victory over the insignificant venedi tribe on the coast of the baltic sea, the goths then destroyed the venedi neighbours the aestii and then marched to the black sea.
Jordanes, a goth was only trying to tell how great the Goths are.

He is truly untrustworthy as a historian


There is plenty more on the ventics in Italy
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/archaeology/people/research/perego


http://ucl.academia.edu/ElisaPerego/Talks (http://www.ucl.ac.uk/archaeology/people/research/perego)

how yes no 3
12-04-13, 21:48
I forgot Moesians among Veneti

my conclusion:

ancient race of Venethi are: Dacians, Thracians, Moesians and few north Dalmatian tribes (Libourni and Iapodes)...they origin from ancient Venethi of Paphlagonia (south shores of Black sea in Asia minor) that are kicked out of Asia minor due to some war regarding timing probably due to participation in "sea people" conquest...

Zeruiani whose state is so big that all Slavs come from it......is nothing but a reference to PIE people Serians/Zeruiani/Zoryans/Aryans... .they spread to Asia with conquest of "sea peoples.... as recorded by Egyptians this is not just sea conquest but also big settlement wave via land...
term "sea people" comes from their worship of Dagon (fish god) and his wife Ser/Asura/Danu/Ishtar/Ishara...

they were old eastern euroasian R1a with some J2... they cannot be called proto-Slavic as they are source of all PIE languages...
http://r1a.org/3.htm#11


I2a-Din is originally Celtic.... it enters into R1a Venethi Balto-Slavic complex with Serdi...it probably influences the language, so it departs from Balto-Slavic, giving explanation of Dalmil's chronicle that Czechs are born among Poles in Croatia land inside Serbian language....

Liburnians and Iapodes are Venethi...they are same R1a people as Moesians, Thracians and Dacians....this explains increased R1a in north Dalmatia........

Venethi people speak pre-Balto-Slavic....and Balts are among them. Note here that Aesti or Estonians are probably the thracian tribe Astae

Astae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astae),[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_tribes#cite_note-Angus_McBride_2001.2C_page_11-4)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_tribes#cite_note-5) they appear in the 2nd century BC to 1st century BC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_tribes
they move north in 1st century BC....and stay unaffected by language changes introduced with Serdi....


I2a-Din Serdi give Carpi as child tribe in Dacian areas...
Serdi and Carpi are origin of Serbs and Croats....

Scordisci are romanized...which explains why in Slovakia I2a-Din origins from late Vlach settlers from near Danube area...

Russian primary chronicle is right... early Slavs live in Danube area and some of them move north with spread of Roman empire...
those are at first "free Dacians"...and later more general free Veneti... or Slobodni(free) Venti from this comes tribal name Slovenci

which is by Roman writers denoted Sclaveni and adapted by modern Slavs as Sloveni...

around core of free Venethi or SloVeneti are their border people Venedi and Anti (those tribal names are derived from PIE words meaning "border people")

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg/483px-Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg


among Venedi are Serbs and Croats....De administrando imperio says they are called there "white" but they are in fact called Venedi which is interpreted by writer via Celtic *Wendo = white

De administrando imperio says Serbs come from land they call Boiki (Bohemia) which is also where they have originally dwellt...
this is true, because Serdi are Celtic people that origin from Boii that is from Bohemia....


Illyrians are Celtic...that is clear from Greek myths that says how Illyrius, Celtus and Galas are brothers....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius
they are more I2a-Din in north and more R1b in south...in south there is also some remain of original Serians/Aryans with J2 and R1a...
these Celtic people cover large range of Illyria

language of Illyrians is lost as they live on sea coasts and areas that are covered with Roman settlements....they are completely romanised...this happens as in France also because their language was not too far from italic languages....

Dardanians are E-V13 with some R1b..... they enter from Asia minor from area of Troy....from Dardanians that live in north Albania mountains unaffected by romanisation comes Albanian language and culture.....medieval name of Albanians in Serbia is Arbani / Arbanasi and in Greece Arvanites, and in Italy Arberi...this all stems from tribal name (D)Ardani...

those Dardanians that didnot move to mountains of north Albania were romanised and later Slavicized... they are the largest source of E-V13 in modern Serbs...

adamo
12-04-13, 21:58
How yes no 3 you are correct both of you that dislike my comment I am a nothing, a moron but I have a question how is dinaric/Balkan haplogroup I Celtic? I was under the impression only R1b was a significant Celtic marker

zanipolo
12-04-13, 22:02
if they held large state in that area, than your hypothesis makes sense...

I never heard that Carpathians were called Monte Basternae...
but I know Carpathians were also Montes Serrorum (e.g. in writings of Ammianus Marcellinus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammianus_Marcellinus)) and Harvaða fjöllum (in Viking stories), and that east Carpatians were Montes Sarmatici, while west were Carpataes...and some think current name is derived from Carpi...



Don't worry ...they are not germanic...

Tacitus wrote in Germania chapter 46: 'Peucini, quos quidam Bastarnas vocant, sermone, cultu, sede ac domiciliis ut Germani agunt.' ('The Peucini, who are sometimes called Bastarnae, are like Germans in their language, manner of life, and mode of settlement and habitation.')

They are like Germans, not actually Germans.

clearly they are significant in history for 500Years, they where then overrun by sarmatians...but before this they helped the macedonians destroy the Dardanii ( albanians ) and settled 30000 people there....did they bring I2 ydna from north of the danube into the balkans?

zanipolo
12-04-13, 22:05
How yes no 3 you are correct both of you that dislike my comment I am a nothing, a moron but I have a question how is dinaric/Balkan haplogroup I Celtic? I was under the impression only R1b was a significant Celtic marker

northern balkan illyrians ( eastern austria, hungaria, Croatia, slovenia areas )where overrun by celts and became a mixed society, the celts also migrated down the danube until the reached the black sea.
The celts even failed in their attempt to subdue the Greeks. all this was after Alexander the great period and before the roman wars against Hannibal

zanipolo
12-04-13, 22:11
I forgot Moesians among Veneti

my conclusion:
ancient race of Venethi are: Dacians, Thracians, Moesians and few north Dalmatian tribes (Libourni and Iapodes)...they origin from ancient Venethi of Paphlagonia (south shores of Black sea in Asia minor) that are kicked out of Asia minor due to some war regarding timing probably due to participation in "sea people" conquest...

Zeruiani whose state is so big that all Slavs come from it......is nothing but a reference to PIE people Serians/Zeruiani/Zoryans/Aryans... .they spread to Asia with conquest of "sea peoples.... as recorded by Egyptians this is not just sea conquest but also big settlement wave via land...
term "sea people" comes from their worship of Dagon (fish god) and his wife Ser/Asura/Danu/Ishtar/Ishara...

they were old eastern euroasian R1a with some J2... they cannot be called proto-Slavic as they are source of all PIE languages...
http://r1a.org/3.htm#11


I2a-Din is originally Celtic.... it enters into R1a Venethi Balto-Slavic complex with Serdi...it probably influences the language, so it departs from Balto-Slavic, giving explanation of Dalmil's chronicle that Czechs are born among Poles in Croatia land inside Serbian language....

Liburnians and Iapodes are Venethi...they are same R1a people as Moesians, Thracians and Dacians....this explains increased R1a in north Dalmatia........

Venethi people speak pre-Balto-Slavic....and Balts are among them. Note here that Aesti or Estonians are probably the thracian tribe Astae

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_tribes
they move north in 1st century BC....and stay unaffected by language changes introduced with Serdi....


I2a-Din Serdi give Carpi as child tribe in Dacian areas...
Serdi and Carpi are origin of Serbs and Croats....

Scordisci are romanized...which explains why in Slovakia I2a-Din origins from late Vlach settlers from near Danube area...

Russian primary chronicle is right... early Slavs live in Danube area and some of them move north with spread of Roman empire...
those are at first "free Dacians"...and later more general free Veneti... or Slobodni(free) Venti from this comes tribal name Slovenci

which is by Roman writers denoted Sclaveni and adapted by modern Slavs as Sloveni...

around core of free Venethi or SloVeneti are their border people Venedi and Anti (those tribal names are derived from PIE words meaning "border people")

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg/483px-Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg


among Venedi are Serbs and Croats....De administrando imperio says they are called there "white" but they are in fact called Venedi which is interpreted by writer via Celtic *Wendo = white

De administrando imperio says Serbs come from land they call Boiki (Bohemia) which is also where they have originally dwellt...
this is true, because Serdi are Celtic people that origin from Boii that is from Bohemia....


Illyrians are Celtic...that is clear from Greek myths that says how Illyrius, Celtus and Galas are brothers....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius
they are more I2a-Din in north and more R1b in south...in south there is also some remain of original Serians/Aryans with J2 and R1a...
these Celtic people cover large range of Illyria

language of Illyrians is lost as they live on sea coasts that are covered with Roman settlements....they are completely romanised

Dardanians are E-V13 with some R1b..... they enter from Asia minor from area of Troy....from Dardanians that live in north Albania mountains unaffected by romanisation comes Albanian language and culture.....medieval name of Albanians in Serbia is Arbani / Arbanasi and in Greece Arvanites, and in Italy Arberi...this all stems from tribal name (D)Ardani...


LOL, you make a joy in reading this fiction...I laugh so much , my stomach aches.

Venetic language, latest July 2012 ....get up to date
http://www.jolr.ru/files/%2883%29jlr2012-7%2833-46%29.pdf

by a slav

adamo
12-04-13, 22:11
But Austrians have 35% r1b Hungarians 20% Slovenians 20% Croatians even less 10-15%, they are not "Germanic" just the first three have minor Germanic influences the most being Austria...Croatia the least

zanipolo
12-04-13, 22:15
But Austrians have 35% r1b Hungarians 20% Slovenians 20% Croatians even less 10-15%, they are not "Germanic" just the first three have minor Germanic influences the most being Austria...Croatia the least

austrians are bavarians, there was no austrians before 1000AD ....they speak a austro-bavarian dialect.
Bavarians are not true germanics, they became germanic...AFTER the roman empire collapsed, there was no germanic people south of the danube river , which is bavaian lands, the people there where the vindelici and raeti people ...some say the creators of the celtic people

adamo
12-04-13, 22:19
Weren't the raetians the most northerly distribution of Etruscans into the Swiss mountains from Etruria? How could they have created the Celtic people?

zanipolo
12-04-13, 22:26
Weren't the raetians the most northerly distribution of Etruscans into the Swiss mountains from Etruria? How could they have created the Celtic people?

this was old concept...only one etruscan alphabet was found in belluno.
the reasoning is that there is a town near verona called cologna veneta, where the etruscans, raeti and ligures ( eugenai tribe ) use for exchanging trade...the eugenai here absorbed by the veneti , but the town propospered, after the celtic invasion of lombardia, the etruscan where pushed further south and their trade with the north perished.
The Raeti have in magority G2a of the north caucasus type and not the G2a of the greek Anatolian, etruscan type.

some info from the linguistic thread...you could find something there
Rhaeto-Cisalpine


some links to Rhaeto-Cisalpine languages, stretching from the Julian Alps to Barcelona.

http://www.squidoo.com/padaneis

http://www.romaniaminor.net/ianua/Ianua07/03.pdf

http://www.romaniaminor.net/ianua/Ianua08/07.pdf

http://www.romaniaminor.net/ianua/Ianua09/03.pdf

parts 1, 2 and 3

Enjoy , some history in it

adamo
12-04-13, 22:30
Thank you very much you are like a god of information! : )

how yes no 3
12-04-13, 22:45
how is dinaric/Balkan haplogroup I Celtic? I was under the impression only R1b was a significant Celtic marker
cultures are unaware of genetics...

in Greek myths Illyrius was brother to Celtus and Galas... Galatians is used as second name for Celts....

so, Illyrians and Scordisci and Serdi are all Celtic..
reason why Illyrians were easily romanised is that celtic languages are close to italic...
same happened in France....


there are serious proposals that some of somewhat related not populous I2 clades were also Celtic/Gaelic...so, its not only R1b...

e.g.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26291-I2b2-L38-and-La-Tene

also

I-M284

I-M284 has been found almost exclusively among the population of Great Britain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain), suggesting that the clade may have arisen in that island. I-M284 is comparatively rare in Ireland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland) except in the north-east. In regard to north-east Ireland, the presence of this subclade "provides some tentative evidence of ancient flow with eastern areas that could support the idea that the La Tene cultural package (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Tene_culture) was accompanied by some migration."[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M438#cite_note-mcevoybradley-22) Where it is found in those of Irish descent with Gaelic surnames, this suggests an ancestor who arrived in Ireland from Celtic Britain.[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M438#cite_note-mcevoybradley-22) Men with several Gaelic surnames such as McGuinness and McCartan bear this subclade, family groups that have a historically recorded 6th-century common ancestor, thus it is not the result of known recent gene flow between Britain and Ireland.[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M438#cite_note-mcevoybradley-22) While subclades of I-M284 are atypical of Ireland they are relatively common in continental Europe.[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M438#cite_note-mcevoybradley-22) The observed mutational divergence between men with this subclade suggests its foundation very approximately at 300 BC, thus dates and geography are circumstantially associated but not securely with Iron Age continental Europe.[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M438#cite_note-mcevoybradley-22)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M438#I-L38

adamo
12-04-13, 22:54
Well I mean.... Celtus and galas where probably brothers since Galatians where celts that migrated to turkey, I don't know exactly what subclade they had but they where celts from southern France. But Illyrians I do not think where predominantly R1b in any way they must have been high in dinaric I with less but some R1a, or just predominantly I-M423

adamo
12-04-13, 22:59
Cultures are unaware of genetics but genetics determine population origins and there is to my knowledge no Dinaric I among high percentage Celtic populations such as Irish, French, English, just any way you look at it Dinaric I is just not really at all a Celtic marker.

adamo
12-04-13, 23:06
And at what percentage is this I-M284 found across Britain or continental Europe?

how yes no 3
13-04-13, 13:40
Well I mean.... Celtus and galas where probably brothers since Galatians where celts that migrated to turkey, I don't know exactly what subclade they had but they where celts from southern France. But Illyrians I do not think where predominantly R1b in any way they must have been high in dinaric I with less but some R1a, or just predominantly I-M423

yes, but that doesnot exclude them for being Celtic in culture....

if 2 of 3 brothers are considered Celtic, what is 3rd brother?

regarding your earlier post that Galicia in Ukraine is not related to Celts...

this is Galicia

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/Ukraine-Halychyna.png/800px-Ukraine-Halychyna.png

consider map based on archeologic finds of Celts
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Celts_in_Europe.png

or look at you tube video that summarizes presence of Celts in Ukraine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X99a4YkpQ

this is I2a hotspot in Ukraine...
so I2a Din in Ukraine is probably Celtic related....

Illyrians and Scordisci were Celtic I2a-Din in Balkans...

Serbs come from Serdi that are originally Celtic but became thrachanized....

as for Scirii, Skiroi is among little Venti, so they are not Germanic but Venethi in origin...

regarding little Venti, I need to add two more mappings to tribes...
"Circius or Thrascius, the north-north-west wind"
NNW Thrascius is Trausi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trausi

"Apeliotes, sometimes known to the Romans as Apeliotus, was the Greek deity of the southeast (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_directions) wind."

SE wind Apeliotes -> Apuli
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apuli


LOL, you make a joy in reading this fiction...I laugh so much , my stomach aches.

Venetic language, latest July 2012 ....get up to date
http://www.jolr.ru/files/%2883%29jlr2012-7%2833-46%29.pdf

by a slav

Venetic is italic language influenced by their neighbours Venethi and developed in region settled by R1a Venethi...that's why it is called Venetic...
it is not core settlement of Venethi race.... small tribal names and place names are always according to big tribal name not in their core areas but where their ethicity sets them apart from surrounding...

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a.gif



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/Iron_Age_Italy.svg/300px-Iron_Age_Italy.svg.png


for me case is closed....

early Slavs were indeed of Venethi race...
their name comes from free (slobodni) Venethi and Venethi is umbrella term for Thracians, Dacians, Moesians and north Dalmatia tribes....

those are free Dacians, joined by free Thracians and other related people of Venethi race...

as for Basternae or Peucini, they are Getho-Dacian people, hence part of Venethi complex
their name might come from "Pecina" = cave

al-kochol
13-04-13, 15:26
early Slavs were indeed of Venethi race...
their name comes from free (slobodni) Venethi and Venethi is umbrella term for Thracians, Dacians, Moesians and north Dalmatia tribes...

at last you are right
sloveni = slo-venedi = "free (slobodni) Venethi"

kamani
13-04-13, 16:52
Cultures are unaware of genetics but genetics determine population origins and there is to my knowledge no Dinaric I among high percentage Celtic populations such as Irish, French, English, just any way you look at it Dinaric I is just not really at all a Celtic marker.
There is no point arguing, nobody takes them seriously besides themselves. Instead of manning-up and accepting their recent slavic origin, they try to hijack pieces of history from antiquity.

adamo
13-04-13, 21:05
So to you venethi is early Slavs....but then you mention italic veneti , and that they are the same too but there's only 10% R1a in veneto province Italy, and even if its one of the highest R1a places of Italy most of it is from far later Slavic movements to neighbouring Slovenia....venethi is Slavs....and what of the Celtic Veneti In Brittany province, France, that are of no relation? You mention the Celtic "Galicia" of Ukraine....but what of the Celtic Galicians of northern Spain, that are of no relation? Levels of R1b in Ukraine are less than 5% of males. There is literally no Celtic going on in the Ukraine, even Hungary and Slovakia has at least 20% R1b as compared to UkraineUkraine

adamo
13-04-13, 21:10
I believe your hypotheses are built upon lore and historical legends that simply do not hold up , upon close genetic inspection and analysis.....you claim similarities or links between cultures simply on grammatical links and false linguistic links, considering the languages in these areas with these similar names where as different as Slavic and italic....it must just be pure chance and not link the venethi and italic veneti and Ukraine and Spanish Galicians, plus the venetics you see on that minuscule coastal stretch in Illyria was italic R1b Italians set up there at low levels and total numbers, not a Slavic venethi people dominating modern day italian veneti province....

adamo
13-04-13, 21:11
From neighbouring Slovenia , correction for first post sorry, wrong grammar, FROM Slovenia not TO SloveniaSlovenia

adamo
13-04-13, 21:12
I do not believe venethi and modern Italy venetians have any link, at all.

how yes no 3
13-04-13, 23:04
So to you venethi is early Slavs....but then you mention italic veneti , and that they are the same too but there's only 10% R1a in veneto province Italy, and even if its one of the highest R1a places of Italy most of it is from far later Slavic movements to neighbouring Slovenia....venethi is Slavs....

that's not what I meant...

I do not claim that they were same as other Venethi...

but that there was Venethi component that gave tribal name and that this component was more and more dilluted with orientation to italic people...

keep in mind that venetic people (including Liburnians and Iapodes) were cut off from the rest of R1a Venethi complex either due to the expansion of Celtic people or because they have settled further from the rest...

so they have oriented towards italic people.... and naturally this caused the language to get closer to italic languages and also genetically dilluting percentage of R1a...

but very point that R1a is still elevated compared to other italic areas is indicator of R1a settlement there once upon a time....
and supports my explanation of R1a Venethi complex...

adamo
13-04-13, 23:20
But that R1a in veneto province arrived more recently from being on the border with Slovenia, not because a long time ago there was Slavs already in veneto province. Or else they would easily have spread to the rest of Italy at high percentages, the italian veneti where not at all Slavs.

how yes no 3
13-04-13, 23:32
But that R1a in veneto province arrived more recently from being on the border with Slovenia, not because a long time ago there was Slavs already in veneto province. Or else they would easily have spread to the rest of Italy at high percentages, the italian veneti where not at all Slavs.

that's your assumption...
look at map of R1a above and tell me:
did R1a in France arrive with historic Slavs?

now look at spread gradients in line from France to Italy...
no historic Slavs were that much west except in Slovenia....
so if you are right, than north from borders with Slovenia spread should suddenly make a turn to east....but it doesnot...

adamo
13-04-13, 23:55
2.5% of French men are Slavs........ What do the French have to do with this there is literally no R1a in France loll even the 5% on the map is a slight over exaggeration, more like 3-4% in the highest hotspots of France, R1a is simply not found past eastern Germany where it is like 15-20% , Czechs like 35-40%, Austrians like 30%, Slovenians 40%....other than 25% in Norway, Sweden and Iceland like 20% due to Viking colonization of this island from Norwegians and swedes that brought over some I1a, R1b and R1a ( even Sweden has more like 20% R1a , Norway I would say 25 ish) France and Italy are WAY off the map for R1a with both countries demonstrating frequencies of LESS than5%! Same for Spain so I doubt there is a link between your Spanish and Ukraine Galicians, considering R1b is terribly low in UkraineUkraine

zanipolo
14-04-13, 00:16
yes, but that doesnot exclude them for being Celtic in culture....

if 2 of 3 brothers are considered Celtic, what is 3rd brother?

regarding your earlier post that Galicia in Ukraine is not related to Celts...

this is Galicia

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/Ukraine-Halychyna.png/800px-Ukraine-Halychyna.png

consider map based on archeologic finds of Celts
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Celts_in_Europe.png

or look at you tube video that summarizes presence of Celts in Ukraine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2X99a4YkpQ

this is I2a hotspot in Ukraine...
so I2a Din in Ukraine is probably Celtic related....

Illyrians and Scordisci were Celtic I2a-Din in Balkans...

Serbs come from Serdi that are originally Celtic but became thrachanized....

as for Scirii, Skiroi is among little Venti, so they are not Germanic but Venethi in origin...

regarding little Venti, I need to add two more mappings to tribes...
"Circius or Thrascius, the north-north-west wind"
NNW Thrascius is Trausi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trausi

"Apeliotes, sometimes known to the Romans as Apeliotus, was the Greek deity of the southeast (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_directions) wind."

SE wind Apeliotes -> Apuli
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apuli



Venetic is italic language influenced by their neighbours Venethi and developed in region settled by R1a Venethi...that's why it is called Venetic...
it is not core settlement of Venethi race.... small tribal names and place names are always according to big tribal name not in their core areas but where their ethicity sets them apart from surrounding...

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a.gif



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/Iron_Age_Italy.svg/300px-Iron_Age_Italy.svg.png


for me case is closed....

early Slavs were indeed of Venethi race...
their name comes from free (slobodni) Venethi and Venethi is umbrella term for Thracians, Dacians, Moesians and north Dalmatia tribes....

those are free Dacians, joined by free Thracians and other related people of Venethi race...

as for Basternae or Peucini, they are Getho-Dacian people, hence part of Venethi complex
their name might come from "Pecina" = cave

look at link , date textiles and other stuff from 1050BC in italy for venetic people

http://www.academia.edu/497066/Textile_in_Venetic_cremation_tombs_c._1050_BC_-_AD_25_a_reappraisal_of_the_evidence

you saying the SLAVS where in italy in 1050BC....yes or no?


The bastanae are the proto-slavs...all history migration , land area, home territory, mixture with scythians and sarmatians...ALL indicate these Bastanae are the ONLY plausible and logical people that could be slavs.......UNLESS the SLAVS came in with the Scythians




There is plenty more on the venetics in Italy
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/archaeology/people/research/perego


(http://www.ucl.ac.uk/archaeology/people/research/perego)http://ucl.academia.edu/ElisaPerego/Talks

how yes no 3
14-04-13, 08:36
look at link , date textiles and other stuff from 1050BC in italy for venetic people

http://www.academia.edu/497066/Textile_in_Venetic_cremation_tombs_c._1050_BC_-_AD_25_a_reappraisal_of_the_evidence

you saying the SLAVS where in italy in 1050BC....yes or no?

that's not what i am saying...
i do not use name Slavs prior to 6th century.....
i speak of pre-Slavic people.....

and i follow Jordanes clue that they chiefly come from race of Venethi that is divided in many different nations and tribes.....i find in Greek myths a clue that this set of tribes includes Dacians, Thracians, Moesians and north Dalmatia tribes....and this assumption fits perfectly with Russian primary chronicle and Dalmil's chronicle....

now, I do not know when Venetic people separated from core of Venethi, nor how big in numbers were they in their new settlement, nor how fast did they adopt italic instead of some variant of pre balto-slavic that must have been spoken by Venethi complex around 1000 BC.....




The bastanae are the proto-slavs...all history migration , land area, home territory, mixture with scythians and sarmatians...ALL indicate these Bastanae are the ONLY plausible and logical people that could be slavs.......UNLESS the SLAVS came in with the Scythians
i do not see any valid reason for your claim above....

bastarnae are probably just one of many proto-Slavic tribes from Venethi complex...
if they are there at all... as they may be germanic....
they are classified as Getae-Dacians...
and while Dacians were part of Venethi complex, Getae were probably originally some old germanic element....


do you expect me to believe that a tribe whose largest lands were as on the map bellow from 300 AD did give the population of all east Europe and further? i guess every family had like 300 children and no one ever died from wars and diseases... or they had a factory and mold to print new people all the time...


http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/300/entity_15231.jpg

zanipolo
14-04-13, 10:00
that's not what i am saying...
i do not use name Slavs prior to 6th century.....
i speak of pre-Slavic people.....

they are never pre -slavic or proto-slavic , live with it..........you except proto to last 2000years?







do you expect me to believe that a tribe whose largest lands were as on the map bellow from 300 AD did give the population of all east Europe and further? i guess every family had like 300 children and no one ever died from wars and diseases... or they had a factory and mold to print new people all the time...


http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/300/entity_15231.jpg

you clearly need to check your data, you give me a map when link clearly described the same year ( 300AD ) was the same end year of the bastarnae
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae

read the lands they controlled in the link

how yes no 3
14-04-13, 12:11
you clearly need to check your data, you give me a map when link clearly described the same year ( 300AD ) was the same end year of the bastarnae
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae

read the lands they controlled in the link

if they disappear in year 300 AD, how do you connect them to Slavs that appear around 600 AD?

Basternae

1 AD
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1/entity_15231.jpg

100 AD
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/100/entity_15231.jpg

200 AD
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/200/entity_15231.jpg

to go to times when they had large state in Carpatians, you need to go to years 250 BC to 200 BC

[Schmidt, L. 1910 and 1911. Geschichte der deutschen Staemme. I. Die Geschichte der Ostgermanen. II. Die Geschichte der Westgermanen. Weidmannsche Buchhandlung, Berlin. 493 and 649 pp.]

zanipolo
14-04-13, 12:44
@how yes3

Conclusions
The Slavic ethnogenesis (or ‘making’) was the result of three basic satem
amalgamation: South Baltic (conventionally ‘Proto‑Slavic A’), West Iranic
(‘Proto‑Slavic B’), North Thracian (‘Proto‑Slavic C’), with Germanic and early East
Romance (Proto‑Romanian) elements. My reconstruction is that this process of amalgamation
of the three A‑B‑C satem elements began some time after the 4th century A.D., and continued
‘in move’ (as Godłowski assumes) for about five centuries. A final phase, the literary
coagulation, began some time after 860 and continued in the long and complex process of
emerging new ethnika.
We have all the reasons to assume that the first satem groups beginning their expansion in
the 6th century A.D. did not have a consistent language, but rather spoke more or less related
satem idioms, some of them definitely spoke languages belonging to other linguistic families.
In the long run, the three main A‑B‑C satem groups merged into a more consistent and
congruent ethno-linguistic structure to be later known as Slavic. For sure, the term Sclavus
circulated at colloquial level, then the forms Sclavenus, Sclavinus, pl. Sclaveni, Sclavini
gradually became common in the Byzantine documents. The origin of Sclavus, hence
Romanian șchiau, pl. șchei ‘Slav(s)’, may be debatable, seemingly was deformed and/or
adapted from a form derived from Slověninъ, pl. Slověne. Disregarding the ultimate origin, it
is quite clear that the form Sclavus, Sclavenus, Sclavinus did not initially have an ethnic
meaning, at least not in the sense we are accustomed to use the term ethnonym. It rather had
social and military meanings, to a less extent a linguistic and scientific meaning as we should
expect. The same may be stated for the Arabic borrowing Ṣaqlab (Ṣiqlab, Ṣaqlāb), pl.
Ṣaqāliba, behind which we may find people belonging to completely different ethnic groups,
and whose common denominator was ‘blond Slave, a Slave with white skin’.
Sorin Paliga / Marginalia on Slavic Ethnogenesis
19 / 19
The amalgamated character of these groups is also proved by the same origin of the
Albanian forms derived from the same form Sclavus, i.e. Shqip ‘Albanian’ (adj.), Shqiptar
(*sklya-b-); Shqinikë < Sclavenica (Dardania, i.e. regio sclavenica); Shqa, Shkla, Shkle ‘a
Bulgarian’; these forms also suggest that sparse, non‑Romanised Thracian groups contributed
to the Slavic ethnogenesis, and also represented an important component of the Albanian
ethnogenesis: moving southwards, some of them merged with other satem speakers to
eventually become the Sclavini, and other groups moved south‑west and, in amalgamation
with the Dalmatian (formerly Illyrian) Romanised population led to the Albanian
ethnogenesis. I am inclined to consider Albanian a neo‑Thracian, rather than neo‑Illyrian
idiom, even if the Illyrian tradition was locally preserved, and some forms—mainly
place‑names—were later adapted to the new, emerging idiom later known as Albanian, or
gjuha shqipë. In North Danubian regions, the North Thracian groups known as Daci Liberi
(Free Dacians) were later assimilated by the already Romanised Thracian groups of the first
phase after the Roman conquest. It is probable that Thracian speakers survived in both North
and South Danubian areas until at least the 6th century A.D., if not even later.
Archaeologically they may be identified until the 7th century A.D., but their survival may be
postulated even later.
By the 10th century A.D., this long process of amalgamation and ethnic changes was
basically concluded, and the new Slavic groups began their new history in the new Christian
context. The Slavic ethnogenesis did not essentialy difer from other similar, but not identical,
complex processes. For sure, the century‑long Slavic expansion and ethno‑linguistic
consolidation was too vast and complex to be fully presented here, but the main issues have
been hopefully approached.

Sorin Paliga / Marginalia on Slavic Ethnogenesis

read this - Linguistic Marginalia on Slavic Ethnogenesis by Sorin Paliga (https://sites.google.com/site/sophologia/historiographia/slavogonia/LinguisticMarginaliaonSlavicEthnogenesis.pdf?attre directs=0)

how yes no 3
14-04-13, 20:46
@how yes3

Conclusions
The Slavic ethnogenesis (or ‘making’) was the result of three basic satem
amalgamation: South Baltic (conventionally ‘Proto‑Slavic A’), West Iranic
(‘Proto‑Slavic B’), North Thracian (‘Proto‑Slavic C’), with Germanic and early East
Romance (Proto‑Romanian) elements. My reconstruction is that this process of amalgamation
of the three A‑B‑C satem elements began some time after the 4th century A.D., and continued
‘in move’ (as Godłowski assumes) for about five centuries. A final phase, the literary
coagulation, began some time after 860 and continued in the long and complex process of
emerging new ethnika.

this is saying exactly what I told you....

satem IE speakers Dacians and Thracians went to north where they merged with other satem people - south Balts and Sarmatians,,,,, except Sarmatians, those are various people from Venethi race as I pinpointed using Greek myth of Wind gods Anemoi/Venti that defines direction of some tribes looked from center and names winds after them....

so free Dacians and other free people of Venethi race merged and gave free (slobodni) Venethi or SloVenethi
original tribal name is preserved in Slovenci (Slovenians)... they are least military of all Slavs, which suggests that they were indeed from central tribe and not from border keepers Venedi and Anti

zanipolo
15-04-13, 08:04
this is saying exactly what I told you....

satem IE speakers Dacians and Thracians went to north where they merged with other satem people - south Balts and Sarmatians,,,,, except Sarmatians, those are various people from Venethi race as I pinpointed using Greek myth of Wind gods Anemoi/Venti that defines direction of some tribes looked from center and names winds after them....

so free Dacians and other free people of Venethi race merged and gave free (slobodni) Venethi or SloVenethi
original tribal name is preserved in Slovenci (Slovenians)... they are least military of all Slavs, which suggests that they were indeed from central tribe and not from border keepers Venedi and Anti

from same author

Who were the Venedi? Tacitus located them east of the Germanic groups, which some
linguists took for a clear proof that they must have been the Proto‑Slavs. The Venedi were,
unlike the Sclaveni and the Anti, a kind of legendary people, historically with oldest
references regarding the location east of the Germanic groups. This ethnic name (ethnos) may
possibly be closer to our modern understanding of the meaning. For sure, some people used
this name, as proved by Greek venetikós, Romanian venetíc ‘non‑Christian’. Finnish venäjä
‘Russian’ also speaks of its old history. This does not mean the Venedi were Proto‑Slavs and
indeed there is no evidence they may have been so, it just means that, if not indeed some kind
of Proto‑Slavs, they were later acculturated, and held for a Slavic group. They may, or may
not, be a similar case like Vlakh by which the East Slavs refer to Romanians, while West
Slavs refer to Italians, even if – initially – they were a Celtic group, later Romanised2.
The presumed Proto‑Slavic Venedi were of course different from the Venedi, Veneti who
gave the name of the city of Venice. The Proto‑Slavic Venedi may have been a Celtic group
too, even if such a view has a major impediment: there are no proofs of Celtic influences in
Proto‑Slavic. If these Venedi were also Celts (as their name may suggest), then a minimal set
of Celtic words should be identified in Proto‑Slavic. There is no such example. Therefore,
assuming that Tacitus’ spelling was more or less correct or approximated the original form,
these Venedi had their legendary or semi‑legendary history as proved by preservation of
forms venetikós, venetíc in southern Europe, and venäjä ‘Russian’ in Finnish. As the Finns
witnessed, as neighbours, the long and complex process of Slavisation, one may credit
Finnish with a good proof that indeed an ethnikon Venedi was used for the people inhabiting
2 Etymologically, Vlakh is related to Welsh, Wales.
Sorin Paliga / Marginalia on Slavic Ethnogenesis
7 / 19
those areas, even if their contribution to the Slavic ‘making’ proper is obscure and
undecipherable.

BUT, the link below, the author writes EXACTLY your style....is it you.
He states the Venedi are proto-pomeranians, thus proto-franks

http://www.tribwatch.com/poles.htm

BUT, looking into italian archives, they at the time when the POLES pleeded the Church to aid them against the baltic -prussians, the Church in its writings called the Venedi, the prussians .


Who are the enetoi -I hope its not the fabled homer story of the eneti that came from anatolia, because there is no written record from homer on this - he stated - ,“And the rugged heart of Pylaemenes led the Paphlagonians, from the land of the Eneti, whence the breed of wild mules. The paphlagonians came from Sinope and not Samsun.

The city of samsun was once called Enete, there where no people/tribe by the name eneti from this city. There is no such thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsun


But Zenodotus writes "from Enete,"15 and says that Homer clearly indicates the Amisus of today. And others say that a tribe called Eneti, bordering on the Cappadocians, made an expedition with the Cimmerians and then were driven out to the Adriatic Sea

al-kochol
15-04-13, 12:16
f. The Proto‑Slavic Venedi may have been a Celtic group
too

Stop! No chance! Celts are R1b, proto-Slavs are R1a in general (+I2a).

adamo
15-04-13, 13:09
Yeah but the I haplogroup factor in Slavs arrived later as they migrated closer towards the Balkans and mixed with local I2 ( 11,000-17,000 years ago origin point for i2) in the Balkans after which with time and diversification subclades such as I2a2 where born as they followed Slavs around thus these far more recent I subclades are "Slavic", they mixed with them and followed them around even if originally they had different origin point

al-kochol
15-04-13, 13:26
11,000-17,000 years ago origin point for i2

Where did they (I2) originate?

adamo
15-04-13, 14:39
Southern Balkans probably, the Bosnia-herzegovinans refuge, the big 60% circle in that region must be where they waited out the LGM. I also heard someone say the oldest dated I2 comes from Moldova which would support arrival via Caucasus hugging Black Sea coast until reaching Moldova but I seriously doubt this. To me it's one or the other but I'm currently inclined to the first hypothesis, it CERTAINLY did NOT arrive via Central Asia as R1a did.

adamo
15-04-13, 14:51
No you know what lol, haplogroup I arrived via Anatolia to Balkans where I waited out the LGM. Then it spread north to Scandinavia, with minor branches like I2c in continental Germany which created a branch that went to Iberia then Sardinia. It strictly did not pass by Caucasus or originate in Moldova it's that simple according to my research.

Yetos
15-04-13, 15:45
Stop! No chance! Celts are R1b, proto-Slavs are R1a in general (+I2a).

who says so,

R1a exist in Greece 5000 years,
what slavic r1a? and after what conclusion?
Goths also had R1a and I Hg
Vikings also,
what makes believe that R1a is Slavic Indicator? cause it has high density around Baltic?

Eldritch
15-04-13, 16:20
who says so,

R1a exist in Greece 5000 years,
what slavic r1a? and after what conclusion?
Goths also had R1a and I Hg
Vikings also,
what makes believe that R1a is Slavic Indicator? cause it has high density around Baltic?
Yes that is true, only certain branches of R1a are connected with Slavs.

adamo
15-04-13, 16:30
what makes believe R1a is Slavic indicator. Because its found in highest frequencies in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Poland and some Baltic states such as Latvia, Lithuania and certain more Central European nations such as Czechs, Slovenians, also in Hungarians, Croats. It spread to those places via the Russian steppes to it arriving in the Ukrainian refuge. R1a is in Greece, correct it arrived there after arriving to the Balkan states slightly to the north that have more R1a such as Bulgaria or Romania maybe even Croatia or Slovenia but the point is it originally waited out LGM in Ukrainian refuge and then subsequently spread down and minority influenced the greek male population at 10-17% on a national level. It came from Russian states to Ukrainian refuge and then spreading to certain Balkans nations, Slavic, R1a , capish? : )

gyms
15-04-13, 18:06
Are you Italian Adamo?Are you?

adamo
15-04-13, 18:37
How do I delete a post the information I posted I believe was wrong lol

al-kochol
15-04-13, 22:43
Vikings also,
what makes believe that R1a is Slavic Indicator? cause it has high density around Baltic?

Cannot you comprehend that Vikings were also Slavs? 1st rulers of Kievan Ruś were pure Vikings.

adamo
15-04-13, 23:48
God no! Vikings where very predominantly I1a they later mixed with 20% of both Celtic and Slavic migrants that came later. Denmark for example was a meeting point of Nordic-Celtic with 40% R1b and 35-40% I1a. Sweden is more like 50-60% I1a with 20% R1a and 20% R1b, it's core I1a territory, a true Nordic country. Norway lags slightly behind with 40-50% I1a and 25% both R1a and R1b.

how yes no 3
16-04-13, 00:02
from same author

Who were the Venedi? ....

author argues that Venedi were not proto-Slavic but have assimilated into Slavic....

i do not think they were celtic or germanic...could have been Balts....

if you look position of Venedi, Sclaveni and Anti,
Venedi are mostly mapped to west Slavs

Dalmil's chronicle does say that Czechs came to existence among Poles in land Croatia in Serbian language....

so, perhaps west Slavs became Slavic via Serbs...

Jordanes doesnot really mention Venedi in Venethic race.. he said chiefly Anti and Sclaveni...

and as I have explained Venedi and Veneti origin from different PIE words

Venedi = border people (they were indeed border between Germania and Sarmatia)

Veneti is related to wind and Venti wind gods...



BUT, the link below, the author writes EXACTLY your style....is it you.

nope, my tribal origin madness was on repertoire only on this scene...


He states the Venedi are proto-pomeranians, thus proto-franks
sounds funny...
i would map origin of tribal names (and partially of genetics) Venedi to Veneti from Asia minor and Franks to Phrygians... so their distant ancestors might have been kind of neighbors in Asia minor 3500 years ago...

btw. regarding my theory of some or all of I2a-din being celtic prior to being slavic...
and related to Danubian Slavs with Serbs and Croats among them that Russian primary chronicle says have moved from Danube to Vistula due to spread of Roman empire

Bulgarian Dna shows elevated I2a-din in areas of Serdi and Crobizy

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25163-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-ancient-civilizations?p=406445&viewfull=1#post406445

adamo
16-04-13, 00:18
Franks where almost certainly a R1b people linked to France. Phrygians where a J2 people from Anatolia just adjacent to the Lydians whom they ruled for a short period after the central core Lydian empire crumbled. They where even at times called interchangeably with Lydians and Phrygians as the same race, they where J2 , their original seat was near the Ararat mountain-Van area of Armenia and they may be linked to the tyrrhenians that colonized Italy, as the Lydians are. Some original venetians spoke a Gaulish language, the majority anyways, but they where not called veneti at that time. There are conflicting accounts, some say veneto is named after the western French veneti Celtic tribe. Others say the later incoming Eneti, who where paphlagonian Turks gave their name to the area and very lightly genetically affected the area. But there is zero link between your Ukrainian venedi and the italian veneti or the Germanic franks and the Mesopotamian/Semitic Phrygians

how yes no 3
16-04-13, 00:29
Franks where almost certainly a R1b people linked to France. Phrygians where a J2 people ....
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26144-R1b-in-Europe-origins-mostly-from-Phrygians-and-Galatians

adamo
16-04-13, 00:51
those where the Celtic galati, Galatians. The phrygians where linked to Muskie or meshketi, Caucasus Georgian men. They originally sat on a throne in Georgia, just north of togarmah the father of Armenians and pushed into parts of Mediterranean Europe, although some culture I believe the Galatians, has to explain for the 30% R1b in Armenia but I think it was Galatians movements. They spoke an indo-European language similar to kartvelian, these Phrygian Mushki or meshketi. And you say that Czechs find their origins in poles....this may be possible in part since Czechs are a fusion of Slavic-Celtic elements, R1a and R1b predominantly.

nordicwarrior
16-04-13, 01:33
Cannot you comprehend that Vikings were also Slavs? 1st rulers of Kievan Ruś were pure Vikings.

Yes Al Kochol, and it looks like the Celts of Western Ireland were Slavic, and also the major branch of the Han in Asia. Also even more surprising the haplogroup E in Kenya plus the Mayan in the Americas.

adamo
16-04-13, 01:51
It's funny because he sounds he's in pain or suffering how bad he wants it, can you not comprehends that the Vikings was entirely Slavic? Lol wtf no they where not they where I1a, obviously!

al-kochol
16-04-13, 09:12
Yes Al Kochol, and it looks like the Celts of Western Ireland were Slavic, and also the major branch of the Han in Asia. Also even more surprising the haplogroup E in Kenya plus the Mayan in the Americas.
I can ensure you that Barack Obama is not Slav, but Angela Merkel is. In her latest biography it has been revealed that her true maiden name was Kaźmierczak, which her grandfather changed to Kasner, after moving from Poland to Germany. What do you reckon, is it a Kenyan surname?

nordicwarrior
16-04-13, 10:48
What y-haplogroup does Angela Merkel belong to? It must be a rather uncommon one based on the fact that she is um, a woman.

I thought we were talking about I1 being Slavic. You're going to have to sharpen your argument.

Hg. I1 is not Slavic, there isn't a map in existence that will illustrate your point.

nordicwarrior
16-04-13, 11:47
I'm going to throw you rope Al Kochol... you stated that hg. I1 was Slavic which is false.

What I think you meant was that a few lines of I1 contributed to the Slavic make-up. That could be true.

gyms
16-04-13, 13:09
It´s hard to understand,but high haplogroup frequencie is not equal place of origin.

adamo
16-04-13, 13:13
We knowwwwwwww, but is it safe to say hg I1 did not originate in Russia or china? Yes, it's prototypically Scandinavian.

gyms
16-04-13, 14:32
Unfortunately we don´t know enithing by sure.The "prototyp" of Scandinavia is the Sámi people. http://www.utexas.edu/courses/sami/dieda/hist/genetic.htm "The Sámi people are the indigenous people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_people) of northern Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_Europe) inhabiting Sápmi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A1pmi_(area)), which today encompasses parts of northern Sweden, Norway, Finland and the Kola Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kola_Peninsula) of Russia."

adamo
16-04-13, 15:23
No Sami are not prototypical Scandinavians they are the exception, they are later invaders like the massive bulk of the Finns. They are paternally N1c and maternally predominantly U5b and believe it or not, mtdna V. They are not prototypical Scandinavians, they are an isolate even within Scandinavia where they correlate slightly more with Finns. They have much lower levels of Nordic Swedish-Norwegian I1a, MUCH lower.

gyms
16-04-13, 17:22
"Three Y chromosome haplogroups dominate the distribution among the Sami: N1c (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N_(Y-DNA)) (formerly N3a), I1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_(Y-DNA)) and R1a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a_(Y-DNA)). The most common haplogroup among the Sami is N1c, with I1 as a close second. Haplogroup R1a in Sami is mostly seen in the Swedish Sami and Kola Sami populations, with a low level among the Finnish Sami. Tambets and colleagues suggested that N1c and R1a probably reached Fennoscandia from eastern Europe, where these haplogroups can be found in high frequencies." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181943/table/TB2/

gyms
16-04-13, 17:33
http://www.samenland.nl/lap_sami_si.html "Two thousand years ago, the Sami inhabited all of present-day Finland. They have also lived in coastal areas around the Gulf of Bothnia, in the inland of Sweden and all the way to the Atlan­tic Ocean, from central Norway north to the White Sea, in what is now Russia. "

adamo
16-04-13, 17:48
Yeah but two thousand years ago they didn't penetrate all the way to northern Norway and Sweden where they subsequently mixed in with I1a of Nordics. They didn't originally have I1a and R1a those components mixed in later ( I1a) or before (R1a). They picked up I1a as they penetrated Scandinavia and their culture made contact with I1a people's, unless you are implying that Sami men from Russia moved into Finland/Scandinavia and are the eponymous fathers that brought I1 with them, which I more than heavily doubt.

adamo
16-04-13, 18:21
Sami are about 50% N1c, 30% I1a and 10-15% R1a so they still have about twice as much I1a than R1a, 30% still being a sizeable chunk. But obviously their 1 out of 2 men in N1c , definitely the core dominant element. I doubt that the original Scandinavians was Sami because most of them are N1c, which arrived to the area MUCH later than I1a, so I doubt the original Sami was the I1a guys and then some extra N1c came in. Plus they have a Siberian N1c type lifestyle, chasing/following reindeers and such animals as they're ancestors must have done crossing Siberia to arrive in Finland. Instead I believe the Sami are a sort of off-shoot of the Finns ( which much highest mtdna V). That arrived in fenno-Scandinavia and subsequently due to close distance and proximity, mixed in and acquiring some of these I1a and R1a "foreign" elements. To me they are the predominantly N1c "later immigrants" to the area, as the Nordic I1a men where established in Scandinavia long before them as the "throne holders" or original "kings" of early Scandinavia

gyms
16-04-13, 19:42
You are a beliver,adamo.Have you any scientific ground for your clames? "The oldest archaeological discoveries were found along the coast of the Arctic Ocean in northern Norway and are about 10,000 years old. Evidence of later human habitation has been found throughout Sápmi. It is likely that these are the remains of a people who later came to be called Sami."

ElHorsto
16-04-13, 20:10
@adamo

Haplogroups are unreliable and can be misleading sometimes.

"A first look at the DNA of Neolithic inhabitants from Sweden"
http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2012/04/first-look-at-dna-of-neolithic.html

These people (Ajv52, Ajv70) were very similar genetically to the saami of today, as well to Finns als Balts. I think they were most likely the big-animal hunters which followed the melting glaciers from south to north, because big animals lived in the Tundra. The very slight asian influence in today Saami could have been aquired by the trans-eurasian (Atlantic to Ural) lifestyle of nomadic hunters in general. I think this could be also a reason for the slight "asian" shift of the north european autosomal component in general.

EDIT: This discussion is actually offtopic in this thread.

ebAmerican
16-04-13, 20:13
Gyms is correct -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people

The hg I1 appeared in scandinavia around 3000BC with the battle axe culture. They were a mix of Carpathian I1 and Steppe R1a. Sami are the oldest continues Scandinavians today. If there was hg I in Scandinavia before 3000BC it died out, and no modern subclad exists.

adamo
16-04-13, 21:02
So I guess people's correlating genetically with Finns arrived first and the I1a people later, that implies that Finns arrived before the Norwegian-Swedish types? So Finns are the original Scandinavians? You would think N1c would be more widespread e over Norway/Sweden if this was the case but anyways....I suppose that these Finnic types where pushed out of much of western Scandinavia by the arrival of these I1a men then...

ElHorsto
16-04-13, 21:48
So I guess people's correlating genetically with Finns arrived first and the I1a people later, that implies that Finns arrived before the Norwegian-Swedish types? So Finns are the original Scandinavians?


All this is not so simple. Only Ajv52 and Ajv70 are shown to have arrived before Norwegian-Swedish types. Autosomal heritage shows horizontal genetic distances only, but less of vertical parent-child ancestry. Ajv52 and Ajv70 resemble today Finns, but they even more so resemble Saami autosomals. Finns and Saami are different too (K3 structure analysis showed that for instance), but they are similar in a more broad perspective, e.g. belonging to "north-european" genetic component of K12 or "atlantic-baltic" of K10 for instance, depending on the chosen resolution and method.
Norwegians and Swedes of course are also very north european, but they seem to have already some other unknown admixture possibly from western or southern europe, possibly stemming from late near-eastern hunter-gaterers or early farmers. Saami also have this, but only very little. Indo europeans are yet another impact which is not completely understood yet. Today Finns for instance are genetically closer to today indo-europeans than Saami, according to some analysis. Don't confuse Finns with Saami.



You would think N1c would be more widespread e over Norway/Sweden if this was the case but anyways....I suppose that these Finnic types where pushed out of much of western Scandinavia by the arrival of these I1a men then...

I think it is too ambitious to map all this to simplistic things like haplogroups, languages or nations.

adamo
16-04-13, 21:59
So I guess saami arrived first then I1 northern proto-Europeans then Finns or some different order?

Balder
16-04-13, 22:14
Gyms is correct -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people

The hg I1 appeared in scandinavia around 3000BC with the battle axe culture. They were a mix of Carpathian I1 and Steppe R1a. Sami are the oldest continues Scandinavians today. If there was hg I in Scandinavia before 3000BC it died out, and no modern subclad exists.
Rubbish. I1 has been present for almost 5000 years in mainland Scandinavia

ElHorsto
16-04-13, 22:18
So I guess saami arrived first then I1 northern proto-Europeans then Finns or some different order?

People similar to today saami came probably first, yes. Indo-european speakers came certainly later, but they could have been also similar to native northern-europeans (e.g. Saami) by chance, but this is not sure yet. I don't know what you mean by "northern proto-europeans". Saami and Finns are northern europeans genetically as well as most other nations living in northern europe. Haplogroup N was probably important in uralic speakers. Story of I1 is not sure yet, but certainly older than indo-european. R1a is probably Corded Ware indo-european, but it is not so sure either. R1b is probably related to bronze-age centum IE speakers, but not sure.

Balder
16-04-13, 22:18
So I guess saami arrived first then I1 northern proto-Europeans then Finns or some different order?
No, there is no link between them and the ancient Scandinavian hunter gathers.


Scandinavia holds a unique place in this debate, for it maintained one of the last major hunter-gatherer complexes in Neolithic Europe, the Pitted Ware culture. Intriguingly, these late hunter-gatherers existed in parallel to early farmers for more than a millennium before they vanished some 4,000 years ago. The prolonged coexistence of the two cultures in Scandinavia has been cited as an argument against population replacement between the Mesolithic and the present .

Through analysis of DNA extracted from ancient Scandinavian human remains, we show that people of the Pitted Ware culture were not the direct ancestors of modern Scandinavians (including the Saami people of northern Scandinavia) but are more closely related to contemporary populations of the eastern Baltic region.

Ancient DNA Reveals Lack of Continuity between Neolithic Hunter-Gatherers and Contemporary Scandinavians
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822%2809%2901694-7 (http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822%2809%2901694-7)




Interestingly, among the Saami - the population which is often considered as a genetic outlier in Europe - the dominant western component is accompanied by about one third of the eastern component, making the Saami genetically more similar to Volga-Finnic populations than to their closest Fennoscandian-East Baltic neighbors.
K. Tambets et al.
K. Rehnström et al.

Balder
16-04-13, 22:28
Saami came probably first, yes. Indo-european speakers came certainly later, but they could have been also similar to native northern-europeans (e.g. Saami) by chance, but this is not sure yet. I don't know what you mean by "northern proto-europeans". Saami and Finns are northern europeans genetically as well as most other nations living in northern europe. Haplogroup N was probably important in uralic speakers. Story of I1 is not sure yet, but certainly older than indo-european. R1a is probably Corded Ware indo-european, but it is not so sure either. R1b is probably related to bronze-age centum IE speakers, but not sure.

There is no evidence that they came first. There is no proven continuity between them and old Scandinavian hunter gathers. Some ancient Scandinavian human remains of the Pitted Ware culture (in central Sweden) lack direct link with any modern Scandinavians (including the Saami people of northern Scandinavia). What remains is only the pre-historic haplogroup Q found in some Swedish males.

From a Swedish and Danish study:
Ancient DNA Reveals Lack of Continuity between Neolithic Hunter-Gatherers and Contemporary Scandinavians
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822%2809%2901694-7


Scandinavia holds a unique place in this debate, for it maintained one of the last major hunter-gatherer complexes in Neolithic Europe, the Pitted Ware culture. Intriguingly, these late hunter-gatherers existed in parallel to early farmers for more than a millennium before they vanished some 4,000 years ago. The prolonged coexistence of the two cultures in Scandinavia has been cited as an argument against population replacement between the Mesolithic and the present.


Through analysis of DNA extracted from ancient Scandinavian human remains, we show that people of the Pitted Ware culture were not the direct ancestors of modern Scandinavians (including the Saami people of northern Scandinavia) but are more closely related to contemporary populations of the eastern Baltic region. Our findings support hypotheses arising from archaeological analyses that propose a Neolithic or post-Neolithic population replacement in Scandinavia.


Saami not descended from Swedish Hunter-Gathers
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/09/saami-not-descended-from-swedish-hunter-gathers/#.UW20V6LV_nE

What were used in the studies were the earliest human remais found in Sweden, something to 7000-8000 years ago. There is no lack. Although for some critics the argument isn't particularly strong yet, considering the small samples and lack of Y-DNA haplogroup and genome-wide SNP data.

al-kochol
16-04-13, 22:34
I'm going to throw you rope Al Kochol... you stated that hg. I1 was Slavic which is false.

What I think you meant was that a few lines of I1 contributed to the Slavic make-up. That could be true.

Learn to read first. I never stated that I1 is Slavic. I stated that I2a can be regarded as belonging to Slavic soup of Y markers, while I1 to Germanic.

ElHorsto
16-04-13, 22:41
Oops, sorry, I think I was in the middle of finishing my post when you already quoted it, thus now you can see I corrected myself to a more vague expression in the first sentence. Still, see below...


There is no evidence that they came first. There is no proven continuity between them and old Scandinavian hunter gathers. Some ancient Scandinavian human remains of the Pitted Ware culture (in central Sweden) lack direct link with any modern Scandinavians (including the Saami people of northern Scandinavia). What remains is only the haplogroup Q found in some Swedish males.



From a Swedish and Danish study.
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822%2809%2901694-7

Saami not descended from Swedish Hunter-Gathers
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/09/saami-not-descended-from-swedish-hunter-gathers/#.UW20V6LV_nE

But this is based on haplogroup ancestry, right?
My point was rather based on autosomal co-ancestry, because haplogroups can get extinct.
Here is a thread about the same topic, where a later K3 analysis matched Ajv52 and Ajv70 exactly to the peoples of saami.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27534-Neolithic-Hunter-Gatherers-from-Sweden-Super-Saami?highlight=super+saami

That's why I think the Saami are still the closest ancestors alive of these ancient hunter-gatherers, even if not direct ancestors in a vertical sense. That being said, I have no 100% confidence in K3 either.

Thanks for the information about haplogroup Q, that was a missing piece.

ebAmerican
16-04-13, 23:21
Pitted Ware Culture (Neolithic Hunter Gatherers) in Scandinavia is most related to Neolithic Latvian cemeteries. Modern Latvian Y-DNA R1a 40%, N1c1 38%, I1 6%. I would guess the PWC was N1c1 (Saami cultural complex). If your source is true Balder, then the modern Saami are a replacement of an ancient Saami population (same language same culture different region).

Balder
16-04-13, 23:34
But this is based on haplogroup ancestry, right?
My point was rather based on autosomal co-ancestry, because haplogroups can get extinct.
Here is a thread about the same topic, where a later K3 analysis matched Ajv52 and Ajv70 exactly to the peoples of saami.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27534-Neolithic-Hunter-Gatherers-from-Sweden-Super-Saami?highlight=super+saami

That's why I think the Saami are still the closest ancestors alive of these ancient hunter-gatherers, even if not direct ancestors in a vertical sense. That being said, I have no 100% confidence in K3 either.

Thanks for the information about haplogroup Q, that was a missing piece.

According with the study modern Scandinavian gene pool basically formed during the late Neolithic (5000 years), when populations from continental Europe absorbed and displaced the small ancient Scandinavian Pitted Ware Mesolithic populations. Since then, we have been a couple of migration waves into Scandinavia, including Corded Ware from the east, which brought Indo-European influence (and probably R1a). Although this was not relevant to a certain extent, R1a in Sweden is close to 19%.

Our population-based core was the shift between the mesolithic and the neolithic.

Autossomically it seems that there is no continuity, however what's contraditory is that we have very ancient mesolithic yDNA and mtDNA here dating back to more than 6000-8000 years. "Pitted Ware" hunter-gatherer samples of study mostly carried U4, U5 and U5a, they still exist in our population as the case of some samples pre-historic yDNA Q found in some Swedish males in the province of Halland, Skåne and Småland.

I am a little critical of the study and the conclusion as well. But also I agree with a lot of things. That it is.

ebAmerican
17-04-13, 00:02
There is no Mesolithic or Neolithic Ydna recorded from the PWC. (PWC was a Neolithic pottery using hunter gatherer culture).

"U5 has been found in human remains dating from the Mesolithic in England, Germany, Lithuania, Poland, Portugal, Russia,[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_U_%28mtDNA%29#cite_note-14) Sweden,[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_U_%28mtDNA%29#cite_note-15) France [16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_U_%28mtDNA%29#cite_note-16) and Spain. [17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_U_%28mtDNA%29#cite_note-17) Haplogroup U5 and its subclades U5a and U5b form the highest population concentrations in the far north, in Sami (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people), Finns (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns), and Estonians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonians)," Wiki

There's no contradiction. An earlier Nc1c Saami like culture was there first. You can't argue the 10,000 year continuity of Saami culture in Scandinavia and Finland.

nordicwarrior
17-04-13, 00:21
Cannot you comprehend that Vikings were also Slavs? 1st rulers of Kievan Ruś were pure Vikings.

Did you say this? "...Vikings were also Slavs"-- what am I missing? I think it may be time for some verbal gymnastics.

And to the moderators... this is on topic because we must know the make-up of the Scirii and Hirrii before we can assign them their place in later history.

**EDIT**
I now realize that you must be of the opinion that the Viking Rus were all R1a.

Also an argument that is difficult to defend. This topic has been covered on another thread and if we use FTDNA Viking project... the Viking I1 and R1a percentages in Russia are almost perfectly even.

adamo
17-04-13, 00:38
" [QUOTE=ebAmerican;406598]Pitted Ware Culture (Neolithic Hunter Gatherers) in Scandinavia is most related to Neolithic Latvian cemeteries. Modern Latvian Y-DNA R1a 40%, N1c1 38%, I1 6%. I would guess the PWC was N1c1 (Saami cultural complex). If your source is true Balder, then the modern Saami are a replacement of an ancient Saami population (same language same culture different region). " You are telling me the original Scandinavians had near 40-50% R1a? Wow I doubt this....

Balder
17-04-13, 07:02
You can't argue the 10,000 year continuity of Saami culture in Scandinavia and Finland.

Unlikely. Within of not less than 7000 years ago much of Central and Northern Sweden was virtually uninhabitable. The ice age ended up between 11000 years ago in Northern Europe, however, its delegation process was slow in Scandinavia and even adding, Sweden was partly submerged until a 6000-7000 years ago.

The Ancylus lake
http://web.comhem.se/lienn/images/1000px-Baltic_History_7500-BC.svg.png


The Littorina Sea (also Litorina Sea) is a geological brackish-water stage of the Baltic Sea, which existed around 7500–4000 BP and followed the Mastogloia Sea, transitional stage of the Ancylus Lake.
http://web.comhem.se/lienn/images/1000px-Baltic_History_5000-BC.svg.png

^^
That's why in parts, the conclusion of the study sounds within, and reasonable to a certain extent.

The old (stone age) and prehistoric Mesolithic population of Scandinavia was very small. I disagree of conclusion of total lack of continuity, since it used too few samples and human remains, nevertheless it seems undeniably that the ancient pre-historic people of Scandinavia were very irrelevant in numbers, given also all of desfavorable condition of survival for a small pre-historic hunter gather people to 7000-8000 years ago, the boreal latitudes did not allow many of them to exist simultaneously at any time, so it is not too improbable that an almost population drift, if not a total drift, happened between the Mesolithic and Neolithic.

From the study:


"By 6,700 years before present (BP) the Neolithization process had influenced most of northern Europe. However, Scandinavia (including Denmark) was still occupied by highly mobile hunter-gatherer groups. Although the hunter-gatherers of Denmark and southern Sweden adopted pottery early on, the Neolithization first took real shape with the appearance of the Funnel Beaker Cultural complex (FBC, also known as the Trichterbecher Kultur [TRB]) some 6,000 years BP (the oldest evidence possible dating back some 6,200 years BP). At this time domestic cattle and sheep, cereal cultivation, and the characteristic TRB pottery were introduced into most of Denmark and southern parts of Sweden. " ( Ancient DNA reveals lack of continuity between neolithic hunter-gatherers and contemporary Scandinavians. Malmström et al. Current Biology 2009)

"One of these last hunter-gatherer complexes was the Pitted Ware culture (PWC), which can be identified by its single-inhumation graves distributed over the coastal areas of Sweden and the Baltic Sea islands that lie closest to the Swedish coast. Intriguingly, the PWC first appears in the archaeological record of Scandinavia after the arrival of the TRB (some 5,300 years BP) and existed in parallel with farmers for more than a millennium before vanishing about 4,000 years BP" ( Ancient DNA reveals lack of continuity between neolithic hunter-gatherers and contemporary Scandinavians. Malmström et al. Current Biology 2009)

TRB sw. "trattbärarkulturen"
PWC sw. "gropkeramiska kulturen"

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982209016947


-------


There's no contradiction. An earlier Nc1c Saami like culture was there first.

Also it doesn’t make sense. The N1c1 entered milenia later in Scandinavia, and after the I1 and Rb1 also. The oldest N1c1 clade in Sweden has around 3500 years according to this study. http://www.oocities.org/grpadm/Karlsson_2006.pdf

Also, even much of the N1c1 in Saamis comes from the Finns (ancient Kvens).

The older male lineage in Scandinavia is the remain yDNA Q (possibly a very ancient pre-historic 'northern eastern' hunter gather haplogroup, in Scandinavia, it seems to be dated of Maglemosian culture, (all of it, before major expansions from Central and Western Europe (and late P.I.E) that caused a significant population replacements across Northern and Northeastern Europe).


The Maglemosian culture
A culture called the Maglemosian culture lived in Denmark and southern Sweden, and north of them, in Norway and along the coast of western Sweden, the Fosna-Hensbacka culture, who lived mostly along the shores of the thriving forests. Utilizing fire, boats and stone tools enabled these Stone Age inhabitants to survive life in northern Europe.

The northern hunter/gatherers followed the herds and the salmon runs, moving south during the winters, moving north again during the summers. These early peoples followed cultural traditions similar to those practiced throughout other regions in the far north – areas including modern Finland, Russia, and across the Bering Strait into the northernmost strip of North America (comprising portions of today's Alaska and Canada).

The Fosna/Hensbacka (ca.8300 BC - 7300 BC),or (12000 cal.BP-10500 cal.BP), were two very similar Late Palaeolithic/early Mesolithic cultures in Scandinavia, and are often subsumed under the name Fosna-Hensbacka culture. This complex includes the Komsa culture that, notwithstanding different types of tools, is also considered to be a part of the Fosna culture group. The main difference is that the Fosna/Komsa culture was distributed along the coast of southern Norway, whereas the Hensbacka culture had a more eastern distribution along the coast of western Sweden; primarily in central Bohuslän to the north of Göteborg.

Appearing next:


The Kongemose culture
During the 6th millennium BCE, southern Scandinavia was clad in lush forests of temperate broadleaf and mixed forests. In these forests roamed animals such as aurochs, wisent, moose and red deer. Now, tribes that we call the Kongemose culture lived off these animals. Like their predecessors, they also hunted seals and fished in the rich waters.
North of the Kongemose people, lived other hunter-gatherers in most of southern Norway and Sweden, called the Nøstvet and Lihult cultures, descendants of the Fosna and Hensbacka cultures. These cultures still hunted, in the end of the 6th millennium BCE when the Kongemose culture was replaced by the Ertebølle culture in the south.



Ertebølle culture
Soon, they too started to cultivate the land and, ca 4000 BCE, they became part of the megalithic Funnelbeaker culture. During the 4th millennium BCE, these Funnelbeaker tribes expanded into Sweden up to Uppland.

It is the period of entry of I1 into the region coming from Jutland and Northern Germany. Hence a part of the criticism in the study, it leaves obscure the origin of the I1 in Scandinavia, the study does not explain the correlation of populational drift or imply it and the fact it exists here to almost 5000 years.

Regarding the I1 as I said a few posts ago it was already present here for between 4500-5000 years ago in southern Sweden during the Ertebølle culture, ca 5300 BC-3950 BC, (name of a small remain neolithic ‘hunter-gatherer’ and fisher culture-making, pottery dating to the end of the Mesolithic to early of Neolithic period. The culture was concentrated in Southern Scandinavia, but genetically linked to strongly related cultures in Northern Germany and the Northern Netherlands. It is named after the type site, a location in the small village of Ertebølle on Limfjorden in Danish Jutland). And that's not meant in just at the entrance of the I1 in Sweden but also of Rb1 (giving rise two milenia later to a following Megalitic culture into the area).


---------


There is no Mesolithic or Neolithic Ydna recorded from the PWC. (PWC was a Neolithic pottery using hunter gatherer culture).

I don't agree with everything posted in that study, the argument isn't particularly strong yet, considering the small samples of mtDNA and lack of Y-DNA haplogroup (though it is certain that the yDNA Q is the oldest (http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003296)) and a poor genome-wide SNP data.

Nevertheless I admit the study make sense when it claims that the ancient Scandinavian pre-historic (stone age) population was too small to have given continuity in the current Scandinavian genepool, including the Saamis. If there is continuity, it is too small to make claims. Any modern Scandinavian individual, Swedish, or Norwegian or Saami could be carrying a 'remain' lost part of those 'ancient' genes, not specifically a group or whatever it is.

On the Saamis, their origin is complex, but it is already known they have a link to Volga-Urals through mtdna and genome-wide data. These two phenomenoms must be linked as Saami Y-dna pool is not really that much different from the Finnish one. Should remember that the modern Saamis are a result of two ancient Saamic populations. They are a 'hybrid' group with eastern (Volga-Uralic) and western (neolithic Scandinavians) origin, and also a product of a blottneck populational effect in Northern areas.

al-kochol
17-04-13, 09:24
I now realize that you must be of the opinion that the Viking Rus were all R1a.

Also an argument that is difficult to defend. This topic has been covered on another thread and if we use FTDNA Viking project... the Viking I1 and R1a percentages in Russia are almost perfectly even.

Vikings were not I1, but R1a. I1 were Goths. Vikings mixed with them in the Scandinavian peninsula. Viking Ruś were mostly R1a + some leftover of I2a.

nordicwarrior
17-04-13, 12:12
Okey Dokey.

ElHorsto
17-04-13, 12:16
(though it is certain that the yDNA Q is the oldest (http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003296)) and a poor genome-wide SNP data.

Nevertheless I admit the study make sense when it claims that the ancient Scandinavian pre-historic (stone age) population was too small to have given continuity in the current Scandinavian genepool, including the Saamis. If there is continuity, it is too small to make claims. Any modern Scandinavian individual, Swedish, or Norwegian or Saami could be carrying a 'remain' lost part of those 'ancient' genes, not specifically a group or whatever it is.


I agree with almost everything. Just one thought: yDNA Q would be most likely related to the globe4 amerindian autosomal component:

http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2012/10/admixture-tracks-amerindian-like.html

The amerindian admixture is rather high throughout northern europe, even in Ireland it is still 7.6% (maximum: Lithuanian/Slavs have only 9.1%, not much higher). Further, yDNA Q is present in minimal traces throughout Europe, not only in Scandinavia. Althouth the Ukrainian Q could have jewish origin.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-Q.gif

I thought yDNA Q has been replaced by R1b(+I??) newcomers in the west, N1(+R1a?) in the east, such that the old Scandinavian lineages were least affected in the middle. But this is only a suggestion for thought, not a statement.

adamo
17-04-13, 15:43
Wrong alkcohol. The I1a in Scandinavia was present there long before the goths of the Ukraine/Romania area who where almost surely not I1. Nor where the Vikings heavily predominantly R1a men, at all. R1a is found in 20% of Norwegians and swedes whereas as I1a is more than twice this amount 45-60%. Obviously R1a was later accepted/introduced into Scandinavia but they where not the original Vikings.

Balder
17-04-13, 16:55
There's no contradiction. An earlier Nc1c Saami like culture was there first. You can't argue the 10,000 year continuity of Saami culture in Scandinavia and Finland.
As I said, if true, it would have been very or almost, unlikely. Much of the modern territory of Sweden today, was submerged for no less than 7000-10000 years ago and a part still in remained ice. If you notice the coastal geology of all the eastern region here, is all it in stone. The old prehistoric Mesolithic population could have been very small in numbers to have left a linear continuity as you might think, (they disappeared or were absorbed).
Also, the 'Finns' are, mostly, from 'quite' recent populations. N1c1 (clade mutation) appears to be relatively young - no more than 5000 years old as much as the I1.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0883292708000863
http://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0883292708000863-gr1.jpg


--------


I agree with almost everything. Just one thought: yDNA Q would be most likely related to the globe4 amerindian autosomal component:

http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2012/10/admixture-tracks-amerindian-like.html

The amerindian admixture is rather high throughout northern europe, even in Ireland it is still 7.6% (maximum: Lithuanian/Slavs have only 9.1%, not much higher). Further, yDNA Q is present in minimal traces throughout Europe, not only in Scandinavia. Althouth the Ukrainian Q could have jewish origin.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-Q.gif

I thought yDNA Q has been replaced by R1b(+I??) newcomers in the west, N1(+R1a?) in the east, such that the old Scandinavian lineages were least affected in the middle. But this is only a suggestion for thought, not a statement.

Possibly. The abstract of this study is quite enlightening:


North East Europe harbors a high diversity of cultures and languages, suggesting a complex genetic history. Archaeological, anthropological, and genetic research has revealed a series of influences from Western and Eastern Eurasia in the past. While genetic data from modern-day populations is commonly used to make inferences about their origins and past migrations, ancient DNA provides a powerful test of such hypotheses by giving a snapshot of the past genetic diversity. In order to better understand the dynamics that have shaped the gene pool of North East Europeans, we generated and analyzed 34 mitochondrial genotypes from the skeletal remains of three archaeological sites in northwest Russia.


These sites were dated to the Mesolithic and the Early Metal Age (7,500 and 3,500 uncalibrated years Before Present). We applied a suite of population genetic analyses (principal component analysis, genetic distance mapping, haplotype sharing analyses) and compared past demographic models through coalescent simulations using Bayesian Serial SimCoal and Approximate Bayesian Computation. Comparisons of genetic data from ancient and modern-day populations revealed significant changes in the mitochondrial makeup of North East Europeans through time. Mesolithic foragers showed high frequencies and diversity of haplogroups U (U2e, U4, U5a), a pattern observed previously in European hunter-gatherers from Iberia to Scandinavia.


In contrast, the presence of mitochondrial DNA haplogroups C, D, and Z in Early Metal Age individuals suggested discontinuity with Mesolithic hunter-gatherers and genetic influx from central/eastern Siberia. We identified remarkable genetic dissimilarities between prehistoric and modern-day North East Europeans/Saami, which suggests an important role of post-Mesolithic migrations from Western Europe and subsequent population replacement/extinctions. This work demonstrates how ancient DNA can improve our understanding of human population movements across Eurasia. It contributes to the description of the spatio-temporal distribution of mitochondrial diversity and will be of significance for future reconstructions of the history of Europeans.

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003296

ElHorsto
17-04-13, 18:14
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003296 (http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003296)



Interesting paper indeed. The weak evidence for mesolithic continuity adds even more probability to a later re-introduction of autosomals still similar to the general north-european autosomals from hunter-gatherers, but accompanied by different haplogroup compositions, for example indo-europeanized hunter-gatherers from somewhere else (steppes, central europe). The Gedrosia component in Scandinavians and Brits could be the hot trace. Just speculation...

ebAmerican
17-04-13, 18:41
"The Saami are regarded as extreme genetic outliers among European populations. In this study, a high-resolution phylogenetic analysis of Saami genetic heritage was undertaken in a comprehensive context, through use of maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and paternally inherited Y-chromosomal variation. DNA variants present in the Saami were compared with those found in Europe and Siberia, through use of both new and previously published data from 445 Saami and 17,096 western Eurasian and Siberian mtDNA samples, as well as 127 Saami and 2,840 western Eurasian and Siberian Y-chromosome samples. It was shown that the “Saami motif” variant of mtDNA haplogroup U5b is present in a large area outside Scandinavia. A detailed phylogeographic analysis of one of the predominant Saami mtDNA haplogroups, U5b1b, which also includes the lineages of the “Saami motif,” was undertaken in 31 populations. The results indicate that the origin of U5b1b, as for the other predominant Saami haplogroup, V, is most likely in western, rather than eastern, Europe. Furthermore, an additional haplogroup (H1) spread among the Saami was virtually absent in 781 Samoyed and Ob-Ugric Siberians but was present in western and central European populations. The Y-chromosomal variety in the Saami is also consistent with their European ancestry. It suggests that the large genetic separation of the Saami from other Europeans is best explained by assuming that the Saami are descendants of a narrow, distinctive subset of Europeans. In particular, no evidence of a significant directional gene flow from extant aboriginal Siberian populations into the haploid gene pools of the Saami was found."

"Soon after the beginning of the retreat of the ice sheets covering the area, in the 8th–10th millennia before present (BP), populations of hunters and fishermen, the producers of the Mesolithic Komsa and Fosna-Hensbacka cultures, inhabited the coastal region of Scandinavia, extending well into Finland and to the Kola Peninsula (Kozlowski and Bandi 1984 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181943/#RF53); Nygaard 1989 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181943/#RF67); Sumkin 1990 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181943/#RF100)). The linguistic affiliation of these pioneer settlers of the north is largely unknown, but it has been suggested that they are the descendants of the Ahrensburgian population, which migrated toward the north from western Europe, along the Atlantic coast of Norway. It has been proposed that they might have been the ancestors of the present-day Saami (e.g., Sumkin 1990 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181943/#RF100)). Another presumably important component in the postglacial recolonization of northern Fennoscandia came from the east, via Karelia and Finland. It has been associated with the movement of Mesolithic populations, carriers of post-Swiderian cultures, to the north. Starting in the Neolithic period, the northern population came into contact with tribes of territories lying to the south (e.g., Sumkin 1990 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181943/#RF100)). Thus, according to archeological data, the present-day Saami population might have been shaped in different times both by the eastern and western influences."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181943/

ebAmerican
17-04-13, 19:19
Okey Dokey.

Al-Kochol isn't completely wrong, just some what wrong. There hasn't been any Y-DNA recovered from any Viking grave (that I could find). So, we don't know exactly what their paternal makeup was. Scandinavia has a large modern population of hg 1, but R1a and R1b are found in Scandinavia as well. The Vikings were a Northern European mixed race. It's just speculation to assume all Vikings were hg I or all were R1a. The Danish and Swedish Kings were R1b (15th Century on). Their ancestors were probably as well. The legendary Ragnor Lothbrok may have been R1b. The Jarls and elite may have been a heavy R1b and R1a population, and the common farmer may have been I1. The La Tene culture had a major influence on Germanic culture.

Eldritch
17-04-13, 19:51
Isn't Latene Culture related with I2b2?

gyms
17-04-13, 20:03
There is absolutely no scientific evidence for the spread of finnugric languages with hg.N1c1.

Balder
17-04-13, 20:20
There is absolutely no scientific evidence for the spread of finnugric languages with hg.N1c1.
In fact Lithuanians and Latvians have a huge amount of N1c, yet they speak a Indo-European language.

Balder
17-04-13, 21:01
"The Saami are regarded as extreme genetic outliers among European populations. In this study, a high-resolution phylogenetic analysis of Saami genetic heritage was undertaken in a comprehensive context, through use of maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and paternally inherited Y-chromosomal variation. DNA variants present in the Saami were compared with those found in Europe and Siberia, through use of both new and previously published data from 445 Saami and 17,096 western Eurasian and Siberian mtDNA samples, as well as 127 Saami and 2,840 western Eurasian and Siberian Y-chromosome samples. It was shown that the “Saami motif” variant of mtDNA haplogroup U5b is present in a large area outside Scandinavia. A detailed phylogeographic analysis of one of the predominant Saami mtDNA haplogroups, U5b1b, which also includes the lineages of the “Saami motif,” was undertaken in 31 populations. The results indicate that the origin of U5b1b, as for the other predominant Saami haplogroup, V, is most likely in western, rather than eastern, Europe. Furthermore, an additional haplogroup (H1) spread among the Saami was virtually absent in 781 Samoyed and Ob-Ugric Siberians but was present in western and central European populations. The Y-chromosomal variety in the Saami is also consistent with their European ancestry. It suggests that the large genetic separation of the Saami from other Europeans is best explained by assuming that the Saami are descendants of a narrow, distinctive subset of Europeans. In particular, no evidence of a significant directional gene flow from extant aboriginal Siberian populations into the haploid gene pools of the Saami was found."

"Soon after the beginning of the retreat of the ice sheets covering the area, in the 8th–10th millennia before present (BP), populations of hunters and fishermen, the producers of the Mesolithic Komsa and Fosna-Hensbacka cultures, inhabited the coastal region of Scandinavia, extending well into Finland and to the Kola Peninsula (Kozlowski and Bandi 1984 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181943/#RF53); Nygaard 1989 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181943/#RF67); Sumkin 1990 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181943/#RF100)). The linguistic affiliation of these pioneer settlers of the north is largely unknown, but it has been suggested that they are the descendants of the Ahrensburgian population, which migrated toward the north from western Europe, along the Atlantic coast of Norway. It has been proposed that they might have been the ancestors of the present-day Saami (e.g., Sumkin 1990 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181943/#RF100)). Another presumably important component in the postglacial recolonization of northern Fennoscandia came from the east, via Karelia and Finland. It has been associated with the movement of Mesolithic populations, carriers of post-Swiderian cultures, to the north. Starting in the Neolithic period, the northern population came into contact with tribes of territories lying to the south (e.g., Sumkin 1990 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181943/#RF100)). Thus, according to archeological data, the present-day Saami population might have been shaped in different times both by the eastern and western influences."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181943/

I know it, though this study is from 2004, outdated in terms of SNP. A more recent one from 2012 with updated genetic test among populations: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3062008/


The detailed phylogeographic analysis by Tambets et al13 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3062008/#bib13) has shown that the present-day Saami are descendants of a narrow subset of Europeans that reached northern Fennoscandia from both a western and eastern route and that subsequently got admixed.13 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3062008/#bib13)


This latter study also found a few selected and specific east Asian mitochondrial DNA variants in the gene pool of populations from Fennoscandia. Genetic evidence indicates that these Asian haplogroups have reached northeastern Europe via the Volga-Ural region of Russia.14 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3062008/#bib14) Recently, a limited Asian contribution to the Saami gene pool has also been demonstrated based on HLA data.15 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3062008/#bib15)


It is really correct to say the Saami people has a dual origin, probably have a heterogeneous genetic origin, with a major contribution of continental, or Eastern European tribes and a smaller contribution from Asia (Artirc Siberia). What is known now as previously speculated by archaeological and linguistic links. It is the fact they have a link to Volga-Urals through genome-wide data. This phenomenon must be linked as Saami Y-dna pool is not really that much different from the Finnish one.
Should remember that the modern Saamis are a result of two ancient Saamic populations and also they suffered a blottneck founder populational effect in Northern areas. The role of the Saami in all of this is that they have kept more of the Volga-Ural and Siberian influence than Finns.

Adding the Finns and Saamis share a similar origin.
http://fennoscandia.blogspot.com.br/2011/11/little-study-of-saami-finns-and.html
http://sydaby.eget.net/swe/jp_finns.htm

However claim that they are here since the end of the ice age is an absurd.

What is interesting in this study you posted is the fact of presence of more ancient people populating the West coast of Norway than Sweden (I wouldn't doubt in it, the West coast of Norway has a milder climate during winter).
I don't how correct Bryan Sykes is, but he speculated?! that some mtDNA H3 (my mtDNA) entered Scandinavia via Norway coming from the British Isles during the late mesolithic to early neolithic in the region.

Balder
17-04-13, 21:23
Al-Kochol isn't completely wrong, just some what wrong. There hasn't been any Y-DNA recovered from any Viking grave (that I could find). So, we don't know exactly what their paternal makeup was. Scandinavia has a large modern population of hg 1, but R1a and R1b are found in Scandinavia as well. The Vikings were a Northern European mixed race. It's just speculation to assume all Vikings were hg I or all were R1a. The Danish and Swedish Kings were R1b (15th Century on). Their ancestors were probably as well. The legendary Ragnor Lothbrok may have been R1b. The Jarls and elite may have been a heavy R1b and R1a population, and the common farmer may have been I1. The La Tene culture had a major influence on Germanic culture.

I would say the 'Viking peons' were mostly I1, whereas all historical Viking outpost has great amount of it. Honestly I don't know, crazy theory anyways.

Well according with Geni.com, Snorri Sturluson of ancient Norse sagas was a I1 carry:good_job: , yet he was a descendant of Viking settlers in Iceland.
http://www.geni.com/projects/I1-M253-Y-DNA/3750

As for La Tene culture, I doubt they had greater influence among Iron age Germanic Scandinavians (maybe a small of it through contact and trade, well there is some old Celtic artifacts found in Denmark and Southern Sweden)..
I would think of it having a real influence among the Franks in Central Europe, or with the 'Germanic Iron age' ancestry of modern day Dutch people and Germans. What would be geographically logical.
http://rokus01.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/la-tene-warrior-fringe-and-negau.jpg?w=500&h=327

adamo
17-04-13, 22:53
La tene culture did not impact Scandinavia, nor where la tene men predominantly haplogroup I....they had very very small traces of certain I2 subclades but the dominant bulk of them where R1b, probably of the u152 subclade as la tene is a village in Switzerland, a country where 1 out of 2 of its men are haplogroup u152, although there Is also haplogroup R1b S-116 ( P312), which is the father of both Irish L-21 and franco-Swiss u-152 that must have moved into Iberia/southwestern and central France some time before as u152 is downstream and then younger still is L-21.. S-21 is not associated with these Clades as it branched off much earlier from R1b-M269 anyways, ( not associated being an expression for branching off earlier)

nordicwarrior
18-04-13, 02:19
Al-Kochol isn't completely wrong, just some what wrong. There hasn't been any Y-DNA recovered from any Viking grave (that I could find). So, we don't know exactly what their paternal makeup was. Scandinavia has a large modern population of hg 1, but R1a and R1b are found in Scandinavia as well. The Vikings were a Northern European mixed race. It's just speculation to assume all Vikings were hg I or all were R1a. The Danish and Swedish Kings were R1b (15th Century on). Their ancestors were probably as well. The legendary Ragnor Lothbrok may have been R1b. The Jarls and elite may have been a heavy R1b and R1a population, and the common farmer may have been I1. The La Tene culture had a major influence on Germanic culture. Of course Vikings were made up of a mix of y-DNA (I1, R1a, and R1b among others). And a quick history lesson... Vikings were vast majority "common farmer" stock.

adamo
18-04-13, 02:38
And they where also majoritarily I1a.

al-kochol
18-04-13, 11:53
And they where also majoritarily I1a.

this is only your wishful thinking

Balder
18-04-13, 14:20
And they where also majoritarily I1a.
Not necessarily. We don't know, it is speculated, but the I1 is in fact the 'best' haplogroup used as a reference when studying historical 'Viking' colonies and outposts. (The most famous cases are I1 'Scandinavians' from Istanbul, Kiev and Palermo.)

However R1a-Z284 in Britain tend to be the 'best' haplogroup indicative of it.

(Iceland is 40% Rb1, 35% I1. And Rurik which ruled Kievan Rus could have been N1c1. Of all 191 men claiming to be Rurikid and Ivan the Terrible descendants in Russia indicate that most (68%) of the them had haplogroup N1c1, only 9% were I1.)

Rurikid Dynasty DNA Project- Background
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/rurikid/index.aspx?fixed_columns=on

adamo
18-04-13, 20:16
They are linked to Vikings I1a men I even read it out of Dr. Spencer Wells deep ancestry book where he describes I1a

zanipolo
18-04-13, 21:05
Vikings were not I1, but R1a. I1 were Goths. Vikings mixed with them in the Scandinavian peninsula. Viking Ruś were mostly R1a + some leftover of I2a.

for clarity, in the last 2 years its already been found that the Scandinavian SNP of R1a does not match any of the Goth R1a. Since Gothic graves around danzig have in majority R1a, this indicates the goths in majority to be R1a and from continental Europe, the Scandinavian contingent of the goths must have been some form of mercenaries.
The next question is...does the HG I in the northern black sea area where goths resided for 200 years match any in Scandinavia?
same question with the 70 years of goths in Dalmatia and also 200 years in Italy

adamo
18-04-13, 21:15
The Ostrogoths passed through Italy, but barely genetically influenced the peninsula at all, in either R1a or I2a foreign elements...they obviously didn't have enough time or even influence to change much of the italian genetic composition.

al-kochol
20-04-13, 01:48
Gothic graves around danzig have in majority R1a

Logically those graves around Danzig were not Gothic then.

al-kochol
20-04-13, 01:56
The Ostrogoths passed through Italy, but barely genetically influenced the peninsula at all

Correct. They just passed through the Italian peninsula like bullets but settled down in Balkans.

al-kochol
20-04-13, 01:59
The next question is...does the HG I in the northern black sea area where goths resided for 200 years match any in Scandinavia?


No, does not. Goths and Ostrogoths never met.

nordicwarrior
20-04-13, 02:29
...The Jarls and elite may have been a heavy R1b and R1a population, and the common farmer may have been I1...

This is a field where I'm very familiar. The term Viking described a journey or form of behavior more than a tribe or nation. Those that "went Viking" belonged to no specific paternal haplogroup, although the behavior seemed to be associated with populations from the North.

Those "on a Viking" had no elite class for the most part. The only time they even paid attention to such divisions were in the time of organized war. And the Norse "ruling class" (if we can even call it that) was solidly hg. I1. This has now changed to the "royal haplogroup" which is R1b centered.

A useful story to remember is one where a foreign king asked a boatload of Viking men which man was the leader (he wanted to broker a peace deal) ...they all looked at him in a state of confusion and each replied that he was in charge.

Ask the modern pirates off the coast of East Africa to whom each one pledges allegience... you might be surprised at the various answers.

Yetos
20-04-13, 03:05
I have reasons to believe that Ostrogoths at least in name are the same with Austro+Goths in Germanic O(f)ster.

adamo
20-04-13, 03:45
Lol Nordic warbler. an opposing king from another kingdom asks, "who is your leader?" Upon learning a new concept and seeing a new opportunity the vikings looked at each other: Me-mE-ME!-Me!ME! They all began yelling and fighting , forever after divided , that would be funny

al-kochol
20-04-13, 05:16
I have reasons to believe that Ostrogoths at least in name are the same with Austro+Goths in Germanic O(f)ster.

Don't you think that the name is artificial? Ostrogoths could not call themselves Ostrogoths, as this would be illogical.

nordicwarrior
20-04-13, 05:48
Lol Nordic warbler. an opposing king from another kingdom asks, "who is your leader?" Upon learning a new concept and seeing a new opportunity the vikings looked at each other: Me-mE-ME!-Me!ME! They all began yelling and fighting , forever after divided , that would be funny

They didn't fight one another in this story (that I know of)... they were more perplexed that one man could be considered "higher" than another. I have that same mindset. Must be genetic.

Yetos
20-04-13, 05:58
Don't you think that the name is artificial? Ostrogoths could not call themselves Ostrogoths, as this would be illogical.

why?
do you believe that Austrians call themshelves Austers before?
Oster means outer, who will call him shelf as an outer?

but in early IE simmilar sound ment Eastern, Εως - (Eus, Asia)
Compare that with Visigoths, means West Goths (weiss+goth)
Northern or black ( Noir, North, Norge)
South or Red (Ερυθρος, rouge) Rus (Varrangians)

if you also put that White for example Serbia means West Sesbia, then you have sound connection and misunderstood through times of West Serbia.
Weiss-Wes-Vest

I don't think that Austrian wanted to call them shelves as outers or outer kingdom,
rather than the name comes from Eastern as East Kingdom, or Eastern tribes, or Eastern Goths.

so the explanation of Osterreich as outer kingdom yes it is artificial cause fits with Modern languages,
BUT IT IS PURE if you explain it with older sounds as Easterners (Eastgoths-(Εωσ(τηρ)+Γοτθ)- AusterGoth-Ostrogoth)

james stock
20-04-13, 18:02
One problem for the people who claim that I2a Dinaric came from Moldova/Ukraine region is the relatively low presence of Haplogroup Q in areas where I has high frequencies. Q should allow us to test migration patterns from 400AD+ if we assume that Q arrived to the black sea via the Huns.

Thus I2a was not brought to Balkans via the Black sea any time after 400AD. The diversity models that indicate Moldova as a I2a hotspot are meaningless.

Of course i believe that Croats are a R1a people and that the indigenous Balkan Illyrians were I2a. Thus, areas where the highest amount of geographic isolation occur are all hotspots for I2a. Dalmatia, Neretva and Bosna were all refugee areas for I2a because they present the most difficult terrain for gene flow/invasion.

We cannot know for certain who the indigenous people were until actual bones are found and sequenced. Eventually it should not be a mystery.

al-kochol
21-04-13, 03:21
why?
do you believe that Austrians call themshelves Austers before?
Oster means outer, who will call him shelf as an outer?
First of all Ost in German means East. Austria is a new name for the state formed on the east from Germany. In fact the name is Österreich. Czechs and Slovaks call Austria Rakousko and they are genetically related to Austrian people more than the Germans are.

adamo
21-04-13, 04:41
Germanics account for about 30% of Austrians(R1b) . Another 30% or so percent are R1a these are the two dominant Austrian haplogroups. This makes Austria a predominantly celto-Slavic country.

zanipolo
21-04-13, 05:54
First of all Ost in German means East. Austria is a new name for the state formed on the east from Germany. In fact the name is Österreich. Czechs and Slovaks call Austria Rakousko and they are genetically related to Austrian people more than the Germans are.

Austrains are originally bavarians...there was no austrians before 1000AD

language is nearly the same
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_language#Samples_of_Bavarian_and_Austrian

Bavarians are the last to become Germanic ...........What where they in the ancient times?

The Bavarians emerged in a region north of the Alps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alps), originally inhabited by the Celts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts), which had been part of the Roman provinces of Raetia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raetia) and Noricum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noricum). The Bavarians spoke Old High German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_High_German) but, unlike other Germanic groups, probably did not migrate from elsewhere. Rather, they seem to have coalesced out of other groups left behind by Roman withdrawal late in the 5th century. These peoples may have included the Celtic Boii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boii), some remaining Romans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome), Marcomanni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcomanni), Allemanni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allemanni), Quadi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadi), Thuringians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuringians), Goths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths), Scirians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scirians), Rugians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugians), Heruli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heruli). The name "Bavarian" ("Baiuvarii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baiuvarii)") means "Men of Baia" which may indicate Bohemia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemia), the homeland of the Celtic Boii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boii)

adamo
21-04-13, 06:01
Within The 30 or so percent% of R1b that is Austrian, most of it is R-S21. Austrians received Germanic influence from north-central Germans that came south into Bavarian areas long ago and also they have about (30% ) R1a that radiated from nearby places such as Slovenia, Hungary, etc.

zanipolo
21-04-13, 12:51
Within The 30 or so percent% of R1b that is Austrian, most of it is R-S21. Austrians received Germanic influence from north-central Germans that came south into Bavarian areas long ago and also they have about (30% ) R1a that radiated from nearby places such as Slovenia, Hungary, etc.

The R1a and I ...the ancient line came from the goths, scirri, heruli and rugii.......if what they say of the rugii being west norwegian people, then they definitely had I HG
The other are all ancient west-baltic people ( r1a and I )

We need to remember there was very little germanic people south of the danube river while the Roamn empire was around

ElHorsto
21-04-13, 13:14
Within The 30 or so percent% of R1b that is Austrian, most of it is R-S21. Austrians received Germanic influence from north-central Germans that came south into Bavarian areas long ago and also they have about (30% ) R1a that radiated from nearby places such as Slovenia, Hungary, etc.

Bavarians have actually more R1b (50%) than the rest of Germany.

Yetos
21-04-13, 14:32
First of all Ost in German means East. Austria is a new name for the state formed on the east from Germany. In fact the name is Österreich. Czechs and Slovaks call Austria Rakousko and they are genetically related to Austrian people more than the Germans are.

Aus means outer,
remember 'terra ingognita australis'

is Austria East of Germany? comparing Bayern yes but is it? the East of Germany or East kingdom name should be given to Prussia which is East of Germany, so it not Artificial name
rather an old inner name,

same with that Ostrogoths means East Goths, and VissiGoths means West Goths,

so goths were far East than modern Deutschland, no matter Gothing mainly are spoken today in Deutschland,

that is the reason that I believe that west European R1b has nothing to do with Germanic speaking populations,

adamo
21-04-13, 21:58
El horsto is right, western and southern Germany have the highest R1b frequencies 50% or so percent whereas in northern and eastern Germany the levels are more like 35% or so. Zanipolo its very possible that Austria received genetic influx from Norwegian I1a people's as Austrians have 10% I1a but its more likely some I1a sweeped into Austria from Germany along with much of the countries R1b as I1a is still far from a dominant haplogroup on a national level, I doubt, in fact even know, according to the I1a percentages, that Scandinavians probably very lightly influenced Austrians.

al-kochol
21-04-13, 23:14
R1a that radiated from nearby places such as Slovenia

This radiation has an opposite direction. Slovenians come from Karinthia. City of Klagenfurt has a second name Celovec.

adamo
22-04-13, 00:25
carinthia borders Slovenia : )

Balder
22-04-13, 13:46
They are linked to Vikings I1a men I even read it out of Dr. Spencer Wells deep ancestry book where he describes I1a
Yes, they were. Though it would be absurd to say that all Vikings were I1.


Don't you think that the name is artificial? Ostrogoths could not call themselves Ostrogoths, as this would be illogical.
According with Jordanes they originated here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96sterg%C3%B6tland

al-kochol
23-04-13, 09:16
According with Jordanes they originated here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96sterg%C3%B6tland

The so called Ostrogoths did not leave their Y-DNA there, which is weird, don't you think?

al-kochol
23-04-13, 09:37
Aus means outer,
remember 'terra ingognita australis'

is Austria East of Germany? comparing Bayern yes but is it? the East of Germany or East kingdom name should be given to Prussia which is East of Germany, so it not Artificial name
rather an old inner name,

same with that Ostrogoths means East Goths, and VissiGoths means West Goths,

so goths were far East than modern Deutschland, no matter Gothing mainly are spoken today in Deutschland,

that is the reason that I believe that west European R1b has nothing to do with Germanic speaking populations,

I see, high school teaching in Greece is in crisis, alongside the economy. Aus means out in German, but the name of Austria is in fact Oesterreich (i.e. Eastern State). Im Jahr 976 entstand die älteste Ländereinheit auf dem Boden der heutigen Republik Österreich in der Form des selbständigen Herzogtums Kärnten (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzogtum_K%C3%A4rnten). Im selben Jahr wurde die Marcha Orientalis (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcha_Orientalis), eine östliche Grenzmark des Bayrischen Herzogtums, von Kaiser Otto II. (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_II._(HRR)) einem Babenberger (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babenberger)-Grafen übereignet. Die Marcha Orientalis wurde darin erstmals Ostarrîchi (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostarr%C3%AEchi) genannt; Aussprache und Schreibweise wandelten sich später zu Österreich.
Terra Australis (meaning "South Land") is in Latin.

skadi
08-06-13, 14:04
why?
do you believe that Austrians call themshelves Austers before?
Oster means outer, who will call him shelf as an outer?

but in early IE simmilar sound ment Eastern, Εως - (Eus, Asia)
Compare that with Visigoths, means West Goths (weiss+goth)
Northern or black ( Noir, North, Norge)
South or Red (Ερυθρος, rouge) Rus (Varrangians)

if you also put that White for example Serbia means West Sesbia, then you have sound connection and misunderstood through times of West Serbia.
Weiss-Wes-Vest

I don't think that Austrian wanted to call them shelves as outers or outer kingdom,
rather than the name comes from Eastern as East Kingdom, or Eastern tribes, or Eastern Goths.

so the explanation of Osterreich as outer kingdom yes it is artificial cause fits with Modern languages,
BUT IT IS PURE if you explain it with older sounds as Easterners (Eastgoths-(Εωσ(τηρ)+Γοτθ)- AusterGoth-Ostrogoth)

PIE. *wēsu- "good" → PG. *iusijaz *iusizô "good" → Got. *iusi- iusiza "good, worthy, noble" → Lat. wisi wesi
PIE. *wes- "to shine" → PG. *westą "west" → Got. wistr "west"
PIE. *ner- "below, under" → PG. *nurþą "north"
→ Got. naurþr "north"
→ ON. norðr → norðvegr "north-way" → Norge

PIE. *nokʷ- "night" → Lat. niger "black" → Fr. noir "black"
PIE. *sāwel- "sun" → PG. *sunþaz "south"
PIE. *reudʰ- "red"
→ PG. *raudaz "red"


→ Lat. rubeus "red" → Fr. rogue "red"
→ Grk. ἐρυθρός "red"

PIE. *erə- "to row; oar" → PG. *rōþruz "oar, rudder" → ON. róðr "rowing" → Byz. Grk. οί Ῥῶς → Rus. Русь

cf. Fi. Ruotsi "Sweden"

PIE. *ḱʷeyt- "to shine; bright" → PG. *hwītaz "white" → OHG. wīz "white" → Ger. weiss
PIE. *awes- "to shine" → PG. *austą "east" → OHG. *ost → ostar → Lat. austria

Hitt. aššuwa "northwest Anatolia" → Myc. Grk. aswiyā → Grk. άσία

There's about fifty-leven things wrong with your supposed "etymologies" ...

:useless:

albanopolis
08-06-13, 15:52
1) Pliny the Elder - Historia Naturalis

Scirii and Hirri live next to Venedi and Sarmatians... in fact, there is a note that Parisot believes that they are tribes of Slavic Venedi

"This gulf, which has the name of the 'Codanian,' is filled with islands; the most famous among which is Scandinavia...
it is generally supposed that the island of Eningia20 is of not less magnitude.
Some writers state that these regions,as far as the river Vistula, are inhabited by the Sarmati, theVenedi21, the Sciri, and the Hirri22, and that there is a gulf there known by the name of Cylipenus23, at the mouth of which is the island of Latris, after which comes another gulf, that of Lagnus,which borders on the Cimbri.


20 By Eningia Hardouin thinks that thecountry of modern Finland is

21 Parisot is of opinion that theVenedi, also called Vinidæ and Vindili, were of Sclavish origin,and situate on the shores of the Baltic. He remarks that this people,in the fifth century, founded in Pomerania, when quitted by the Goths, a kingdom, the chiefs of which styled themselves the Konjucsof Vinland. Their name is also to be found in Venden, a Russian town in the government of Riga, in Windenburg in Courland, and in Wendenin the circle of the Grand Duchy of Mecklenburg Schwerin.

22 Parisot remarks that these two peoples were probably only tribes of the Venedi."

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0137:book=4:chapter= 27&highlight=sciri



it is suggested that Scirii and Hirri are tribes of Sclavish Venedi




2) De Administrando imperio - the only historic source talking about settling of Serbs and Croats on Balkan


http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=de+administrando+imperio&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vA5gUZftE9Cr0AWp84DgBw&redir_esc=y


"The Serbs are descended from the unbaptized Serbs, also called 'white', who live beyond Turkeyin a place called by them Boiki, where their neighbour is Francia, as is also Great Croatia, the unbaptized, also called 'white': in this place, then, these Serbs also originally dwelt. "


note in time of writing "Turkey"is land of Turkic Avars - Hungary of modern days
Boiki is Bohemia, land of Boii


both Serbs and Croats were called "white"...
celtic *windo = white

point is they were called "Venedi" and writer used its Celtic meaning being "white"... those Serbs and Croats were called Venedi as they were part of Venedi tribes....with respect to 1) where notable tribes of Sclavisch Venedi are Scirii and Hirri, I think that Serbs and Croats might have been known in their early history as Scirii and Hirri


in fact just north of Boiki is east Germany area where even today small Slavic ethnic minority cariesname of Lusatians/Sorbs/Wends...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs

3) genetic argument

Scirii and Hirri are also believed to have been east Germanic tribes... this may be about their origin ....note that Serbs and Croats are not R1a dominant like other Slavic people but I2a dominant... while Germanic people are characterized by related I1 and I2b clades

in fact I2a-Dinaric South is very typical of Serbs and to some extent Croats...it is very young clade which allows us to relate it to historic movements of tribes...
if we look map of I2a-Dinaric south
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap



besides Serb settled areas we can notice:
a) island in Bohemia or Boiki
we know that Serbs came from there
but we also know they came to therefrom somewhere more to the east....
b) island in south Poland extending to central Ukraine (Galicia) – lower Vistula
c) island in north east Poland(Baltic) – upper Vistula
d) two isolated spots on north shoresof Asia minor
e) set of isolated spots in Germany –from Zurich to Hamburg

now let us look at movements of Scirii




originated somewhere in Germany (perhaps Bavaria – Munich to Zurich area and moved to north as trend marked as e) suggests... note that De Administrando imperio mentions that Serbs also originally dwellt in Bohemia...
lived in Baltic area in upper Vistula from 300 BC to 150 AD
http://ethnohistory.verbix.com/Sciri/#locref7
this is exactly I2a-Din south area marked with c) above
located in Galicia (lower Vistula) from 150 AD till 409 AD, which exactly matches the island of I2a-Dinaric marked as b) above
http://ethnohistory.verbix.com/Sciri/#locref7
captured Scirii were settled by Byzantium on sea coasts of Asia minor (Bythinia), where whole settlements of them existed
http://books.google.nl/books?id=MSPttWbUPZsC&pg=PA516&dq=Sciri+germanic&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gTc6UZqGGOTX7AbYhoGYCA&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBjge#v=onepage&q=Sciri%20germanic&f=false
this relates to isolated spots on coasts of Asia minor marked above as d)...
last record of Scirii is that they were settled in east Slovakia where they are recorded to live from 409AD to 450 AD... now with arrival of Avars all tribes moved a bit away from Avars...for Scirii this must have meant moving to west which clearly brings them to Bohemia
http://ethnohistory.verbix.com/Sciri/#locref7



'

Are you serious? :rolleyes2:
Serbs and Croats Germanic origin?:useless:
Not Russian, or Slavic?
This forum has degenerated beyond repair, I swear!

Yetos
08-06-13, 16:54
PIE. *wēsu- "good" → PG. *iusijaz *iusizô "good" → Got. *iusi- iusiza "good, worthy, noble" → Lat. wisi wesi
PIE. *wes- "to shine" → PG. *westą "west" → Got. wistr "west"
PIE. *ner- "below, under" → PG. *nurþą "north"
→ Got. naurþr "north"
→ ON. norðr → norðvegr "north-way" → Norge

PIE. *nokʷ- "night" → Lat. niger "black" → Fr. noir "black"
PIE. *sāwel- "sun" → PG. *sunþaz "south"
PIE. *reudʰ- "red"
→ PG. *raudaz "red"


→ Lat. rubeus "red" → Fr. rogue "red"
→ Grk. ἐρυθρός "red"

PIE. *erə- "to row; oar" → PG. *rōþruz "oar, rudder" → ON. róðr "rowing" → Byz. Grk. οί Ῥῶς → Rus. Русь
cf. Fi. Ruotsi "Sweden"

PIE. *ḱʷeyt- "to shine; bright" → PG. *hwītaz "white" → OHG. wīz "white" → Ger. weiss
PIE. *awes- "to shine" → PG. *austą "east" → OHG. *ost → ostar → Lat. austria

Hitt. aššuwa "northwest Anatolia" → Myc. Grk. aswiyā → Grk. άσία

There's about fifty-leven things wrong with your supposed "etymologies" ...

:useless:

in fact you just prove better what I am talking.

adamo
08-06-13, 21:49
Croats are indigenous balkaniic (I2a) + Slavic (R1a), predominantly. Serbs are indigenous balkanic (I2a) + E3b with low levels but still present R1a. They both have heavy Balkans refugium blood with Slavic influence, but Serbs have quite a lot of the Balkans, anciently north-African E3b. Even more so than the Slavic R1a in fact. No Germanic blood here; not a all.

albanopolis
08-06-13, 22:18
Croats are indigenous balkaniic (I2a) + Slavic (R1a), predominantly. Serbs are indigenous balkanic (I2a) + E3b with low levels but still present R1a. They both have heavy Balkans refugium blood with Slavic influence, but Serbs have quite a lot of the Balkans, anciently north-African E3b. Even more so than the Slavic R1a in fact. No Germanic blood here; not a all.

I am amazed! The I2a in Russians is also indigenous ballkanic, too?
So Germans are 30% Russians, no? They are heavy R1a and you are saying that its Slavic.
Since you are waving an Italian flag, you know the area was under Roman conquest for one millenia, no?
How come they have not a single latin word in their vocabulary.?
I swear this forum is going asray!!!

adamo
08-06-13, 23:09
Yes some 20% of German males are R1a Slavic, as some 20% of polish men are R1b. I2a affects some 15-20% f Russian men, it didn't originate there eiter way.

adamo
08-06-13, 23:14
I2 originated in the Balkans some 15,000-18,000 years ago, where do you think I2a came from? It's found at highest frequencies in the Balkans, probably the Romanian Dacians had it, it didn't enter Balkans during Middle Ages with R1a, or the Balkans would be a "second Russia" in terms f R1a percentages.

adamo
08-06-13, 23:15
I2a pushed north at low % into Ukraine Russia, whereas R1a infiltrated as best it could the Balkans.

albanopolis
09-06-13, 00:52
I2a pushed north at low % into Ukraine Russia, whereas R1a infiltrated as best it could the Balkans.
O.K But what makes Serbs and Croats Germanics, as the Headline of this forum is?

I feel like someone is joking and I am not getting the joke. Its a strange feeling.

adamo
09-06-13, 01:51
Nothing does, they aren't Germanic.

nordicwarrior
09-06-13, 03:06
Nothing does, they aren't Germanic.

I don't think making blanket statements like that really make much sense. Certainly Croats, Serbs, Greeks and even Turks share at least some Germanic autosomal material (or even haplogroup membership). These areas weren't surrounded by giant moats or electric fences. River trade (and it's related/resulting couplings) wasn't invented two hundred years ago.

adamo
09-06-13, 03:27
Well not Serbs anyways; maybe like 10-15% of Croats; a very small substratum of them are Germanic. Greeks have 15-20% R1b, Turks as well but Greeks and Turks aren't Croatians or Serbs.

LeBrok
09-06-13, 03:47
How come they have not a single latin word in their vocabulary.?

Who?
Every European country has at least hundreds latin words in their vocabulary these days. The only question is if they used latin words 2,000 -1,500 years ago.

albanopolis
09-06-13, 04:30
Who?
Every European country has at least hundreds latin words in their vocabulary these days. The only question is if they used latin words 2,000 -1,500 years ago.

Every european country, but slavs is the correct answer. They were never close to Latins. The few that they might have are borrowed through english. Other words english words with latin origin.

albanopolis
09-06-13, 04:39
[QUOTE=adamo;409799]Well not Serbs anyways; maybe like 10-15% of Croats; a very small substratum of them are Germanic.[/QUOTE
If that's true then its a legacy of Austrian empire, through rape, prostitution or consensual marriage during the empire. Other words they aquired those genes recently, its not like they inherered them. So its irresponsable to claim ownership of those genes.

LeBrok
09-06-13, 18:25
Every european country, but slavs is the correct answer.
What about Hungarians, Finns and all Balt's countries? Did you check state of latin in them, or guessing is your game?



They were never close to Latins. The few that they might have are borrowed through english. Other words english words with latin origin. I wish you could do more homework before opening your mouth again.
According to linguist Miroslaw Banko there is 5,800 latin words in polish language. As you might know polish is slavic language.
http://poradnia.pwn.pl/lista.php?id=11958

Yes, this means that there are thousands of latin words in a slavic language. Wouldn't you say that this is the correct answer?

albanopolis
09-06-13, 20:57
What about Hungarians, Finns and all Balt's countries? Did you check state of latin in them, or guessing is your game?


I wish you could do more homework before opening your mouth again.
According to linguist Miroslaw Banko there is 5,800 latin words in polish language. As you might know polish is slavic language.
http://poradnia.pwn.pl/lista.php?id=11958

Yes, this means that there are thousands of latin words in a slavic language. Wouldn't you say that this is the correct answer?

It could be, but those words are learned through science. They are not everyday conversation words. Lets say a Polish doctor learns the skeleton of a human body. There are 220 bones in the body and all of them are in Latin. So here you go, 220 latin words right there. Add here music, biology, lithurgy and more, so you are technicaly right about their existence, but I meant words that a humble folk use everyday. I should add that those Polish have earned my respect. Civilized folks, that world needs to here more about.

nordicwarrior
09-06-13, 22:02
I've been running into more native Poles lately here in the U.S. Not sure of the reason, but I agree they are impressive both in the way they carry themselves and in appearance.

LeBrok
09-06-13, 23:12
It could be, but those words are learned through science. They are not everyday conversation words. Lets say a Polish doctor learns the skeleton of a human body. There are 220 bones in the body and all of them are in Latin. So here you go, 220 latin words right there. Add here music, biology, lithurgy and more, so you are technicaly right about their existence, but I meant words that a humble folk use everyday. I should add that those Polish have earned my respect. Civilized folks, that world needs to here more about.
Of course all of them came after 1,000 CE. Originally slavic language didn't have latin in it. It contained some east germanic and sarmatian borrowings though, from it's neighbors. Latin to Poland arrived with christianity and Roman Catholic church in 10th century. It quickly became a language of educated and upper class, which was about 10% of society back then. Not mentioning that liturgy was in latin till 20th century. Surprisingly an official language (in bureaucracy) in many polish cities was german till 16th century.

Examples of latin words in everyday polish: vice versa, notabene, humanitarny, dom (home), prostitutka (prostitute), paciez (pater noster prayer), kosciol (church), cyrkiel (tool to make circles, totalny (total), reclama (commercial), ambicija (ambition), herbata (tea), seria (series), absolutny (absolutely)etc, etc (which is latin too),

albanopolis
10-06-13, 00:10
Of course all of them came after 1,000 CE. Originally slavic language didn't have latin in it. It contained some east germanic and sarmatian borrowings though, from it's neighbors. Latin to Poland arrived with christianity and Roman Catholic church in 10th century. It quickly became a language of educated and upper class, which was about 10% of society back then. Not mentioning that liturgy was in latin till 20th century. Surprisingly an official language (in bureaucracy) in many polish cities was german till 16th century.

Examples of latin words in everyday polish: vice versa, notabene, humanitarny, dom (home), prostitutka (prostitute), paciez (pater noster prayer), kosciol (church), cyrkiel (tool to make circles, totalny (total), reclama (commercial), ambicija (ambition), herbata (tea), seria (series), absolutny (absolutely)etc, etc (which is latin too),
Poles are westernised Slavs. Everybody treats them differently. Especially americans care about them. Its a legacy of cold war, or Large polish community in US, I don't know. But as I siad in the previous post they have earned the respect of many.

Ike
13-07-13, 01:27
You should not care for borrowed words, but for some groups of words that are characteristic for development of the tribe. That depends on the location, culture and the way of life. For example English have a vast number of words for a floating objects (ship), but I don't think Hungarians could match them. On the other hands a tribe living in the plains that is hunting or gathering food, would have a different vocabulary. That can reveal something about the past of the certain tribe/people.