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BakodiP
10-04-13, 09:42
http://i48.tinypic.com/2e2ou2u.jpg

FTDNA J2b project participants:
J2b* - 7,2%
J2b1 - 14,4%
J2b2* - 78,4%

LeBrok
11-04-13, 03:06
Very interesting, thanks BakodiP. I just wonder if M205 shows Bulgar or Turkic connection from north of Caspian Sea to Balkans?

BakodiP
11-04-13, 09:11
Very interesting, thanks BakodiP. I just wonder if M205 shows Bulgar or Turkic connection from north of Caspian Sea to Balkans?

I'm not sure about M205, but there some J2b people in the region these days. There are some Tatar J2b2, some Ashkenazi (maybe Khazar) J2b* and J2b2, and I know some J2b1 and J2b* from Armenia as well. So it could be that some steppe nomad who was J2b1 went to Bulgaria with the Bulgars or was himself a Bulgar, or Crimean Tatars could bring this haplogroup during the Ottoman rule.

kamani
11-04-13, 09:39
M12 and M205 overlap in that area north of Caspian sea. Coincidentally the birthplace of IE languages is at the same area. Also the spread of IE languages fits the spread of M12. Also the linguistic differences between albanian and greek fit well with the M12-M205 dichotomy. So to make my point, I would not be surprised if the original IE colonizers were carrying some J2b.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-GGt8kK2NYgc/TliWBJr2ZZI/AAAAAAAACRA/q8ocndQQt_8/s1600/SLRD-map.jpg

BakodiP
11-04-13, 10:36
M12 and M205 overlap in that area north of Caspian sea. Coincidentally the birthplace of IE languages is at the same area. Also the spread of IE languages fits the spread of M12. Also the linguistic differences between albanian and greek fit well with the M12-M205 dichotomy. So to make my point, I would not be surprised if the original IE colonizers were carrying some J2b.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-GGt8kK2NYgc/TliWBJr2ZZI/AAAAAAAACRA/q8ocndQQt_8/s1600/SLRD-map.jpg

Do you know some studies about the J2b there? I'm Hungarian (back from 1593 surely my paternal line is Hungarian as well) and J2b* (M205-, M241-).1100 years ago the Hungarian tribes came from near the exact location (North Caspian Sea, Volga-Ural region) to Central Europe so it could be an explanation.

kamani
11-04-13, 13:17
Do you know some studies about the J2b there? I'm Hungarian (back from 1593 surely my paternal line is Hungarian as well) and J2b* (M205-, M241-).1100 years ago the Hungarian tribes came from near the exact location (North Caspian Sea, Volga-Ural region) to Central Europe so it could be an explanation.

I have seen very few studies on J2b, it's sort of forgotten/ignored. What I know about it is that Albania has one of the highest J2b percentages in the world (~16%). Its maps overlap well with the maps of E-v13. It was carried as far as england by roman soldiers from the balkans. There is a disputed idea that J2b got in india because of Alexander the Great army. If you can trace your lineage back to 1500-s, a possibility is they were christian refugees from the balkans, escaping the ottoman invasion (1400-s). They might have been albanian, serbian, or greek.

Yaan
11-04-13, 16:41
They might have been albanian, serbian, or greek.

Wrong they might have been Bulgarian,Serbian or Vlach, Greek and Albanians do not go there, while we the Balkans Slavs do

Yaan
11-04-13, 16:42
In Bulgaria we do not mix with Crimean Tatars and they come only for a brief period between 1850-1878 ,then most of them left the rest become Turks, so it is either from Bulgar or one of the other tribes that make us,but not Tatars.

BakodiP
11-04-13, 16:53
I have seen very few studies on J2b, it's sort of forgotten/ignored. What I know about it is that Albania has one of the highest J2b percentages in the world (~16%). Its maps overlap well with the maps of E-v13. It was carried as far as england by roman soldiers from the balkans. There is a disputed idea that J2b got in india because of Alexander the Great army. If you can trace your lineage back to 1500-s, a possibility is they were christian refugees from the balkans, escaping the ottoman invasion (1400-s). They might have been albanian, serbian, or greek.

Interesting theory! ;) Although my family name sounds really Hungarian. On our family coat of arms we have a flag like Skanderbeg's (red with the black two-headed eagle), but I read that all of J2b in Albania are J2b2 and they have a very low variety of haplotypes. I have only one match with an Armenian person, who told me his ancestors were caviar merchants during the reign of Catherine the Great, they're from Russia and called Gubov which sounds pretty Russian to me. We have 12/10, 25/23, 37/33, 67/57 match and according to different estimates TMRCA is about 1000-1500 years.

BakodiP
11-04-13, 19:23
In Bulgaria we do not mix with Crimean Tatars and they come only for a brief period between 1850-1878 ,then most of them left the rest become Turks, so it is either from Bulgar or one of the other tribes that make us,but not Tatars.

Wath about Tatars in Tatarstan Russia, who are descendents of Volga Bulgars?

ElHorsto
11-04-13, 20:10
Wath about Tatars in Tatarstan Russia, who are descendents of Volga Bulgars?

But as Kamani already said, both, M12 and M205 are present in Tatarstan, and M12 occurs throughout Europe, which of course can not be from Bulgars. Why to assume than that M205 spread due to a different cause? Also M205 peaks in west Turkey and I'm not aware of any Bulgar settlements in Anatolia. The little M205 in Bulgaria seems to have swept from neighbouring Turkey rather than from Tatarstan.

BakodiP
11-04-13, 20:43
But as Kamani already said, both, M12 and M205 are present in Tatarstan, and M12 occurs throughout Europe, which of course can not be from Bulgars. Why to assume than that M205 spread due to a different cause? Also M205 peaks in west Turkey and I'm not aware of any Bulgar settlements in Anatolia. The little M205 in Bulgaria seems to have swept from neighbouring Turkey rather than from Tatarstan.

We discussed the probabilty of one way of J2b getting to Bulgaria, based on the Kurgan hypothesis (like this haplogroup came from the Caspian steppe). I'm not saying it's a Bulgar only genetic marker since there is no haplogroup that belongs to only one nation! We just emphasized that maybe some nowaday Bulgarian J2b could came from that region, not all of Bulgarian J2b people are direct descendent of nomad Bulgars!

Yaan
11-04-13, 20:46
But as Kamani already said, both, M12 and M205 are present in Tatarstan, and M12 occurs throughout Europe, which of course can not be from Bulgars. Why to assume than that M205 spread due to a different cause? Also M205 peaks in west Turkey and I'm not aware of any Bulgar settlements in Anatolia. The little M205 in Bulgaria seems to have swept from neighbouring Turkey rather than from Tatarstan.
It is the other way around Turks recieved genes from Bulgarians , when Bulgarians were forcefully kidnapped for soldier or when forced to become Muslim, no Turks become Bulgarian. So watch ur language. Plus J2b is not common in Turks at all. Turks were R1a people with some C that mixed with Middle Eastern and European people.End of story.
Bulgars went as far as Italy and M12 was one of their genes. So stop speaking about Turks, nation that exist since the 20th center and lets talk about the truth.

Yaan
11-04-13, 20:48
Crimean Tatar and Volga Tatars are really different and yes before mixing with N people the Volga Tatars were like the Bulgarians, before the Bulgarians mixed with E-V13 and I2a people. R1a,J2a and J2b are the genes of the Bulgars.

ElHorsto
11-04-13, 21:17
It is the other way around Turks recieved genes from Bulgarians , when Bulgarians were forcefully kidnapped for soldier or when forced to become Muslim, no Turks become Bulgarian. So watch ur language. Plus J2b is not common in Turks at all. Turks were R1a people with some C that mixed with Middle Eastern and European people.End of story.
Bulgars went as far as Italy and M12 was one of their genes. So stop speaking about Turks, nation that exist since the 20th center and lets talk about the truth.

Please be precise, I was talking about J2b-M205 only. And I did not say "from Turks" but "from Turkey". Would it please you more if I say from Anatolia instead from Turkey? J2b-M205 could be a marker of lydian greek settlement from antiquity, who knows. So relax, no Turks are flooding Bulgaria. Although there is a turkic minority in Bulgaria ... don't get a heart attack.

BakodiP
11-04-13, 21:47
If you are speaking about J2b please mind the difference between J2b*-M12, J2b1-M205 and J2b2-M241. They are different just like R1a and R1b.

Yaan
11-04-13, 21:49
Please be precise, I was talking about J2b-M205 only. And I did not say "from Turks" but "from Turkey". Would it please you more if I say from Anatolia instead from Turkey? J2b-M205 could be a marker of lydian greek settlement from antiquity, who knows. So relax, no Turks are flooding Bulgaria. Although there is a turkic minority in Bulgaria ... don't get a heart attack.

Yes if u say Anatolia it is totally OK, Turkey is not and nobody cares about the Turk minority and we do not speak about them and they do not cary that gene, they are from the tests up to now mostly R1b,R1a and some E-V13,no wonder since they are mostly Bulgarians that become Turks(well not all of course)
J2b1,M12 is really rare in Bulgaria 0.4,as for the typcial Balkan marker J2b2- M241 is is the single biggest type of J2 in Bulgaria -3.8, the second biggest being my own type J2a4h also know as M530 at 2.4 :)

adamo
11-04-13, 21:55
J2b is not a marker from greek Lydian antiquity settlement. The Lydia's never went to Greece, they where Turks (J2a). J2a is not found in Greece. It's found in the Middle East ( Armenia, turkey, northwest Iran) only the greek island of Crete, and Italy. J2b symbolizes "standard" mainland/peninsula greek J2. It came a LONG time ago from Middle East, stayed a long time in Greece where it diversified and became characteristically Greco-Albanian and then spread to other minor parts of Balkans and Italy. It is Balkans J2,Greco-Albanian J2' not Anatolian J2 (J2a)

adamo
11-04-13, 21:58
I'm referring to M12 by the way

BakodiP
11-04-13, 22:03
J2b is not a marker from greek Lydian antiquity settlement. The Lydia's never went to Greece, they where Turks (J2a). J2a is not found in Greece. It's found in the Middle East ( Armenia, turkey, northwest Iran) only the greek island of Crete, and Italy. J2b symbolizes "standard" mainland/peninsula greek J2. It came a LONG time ago from Middle East, stayed a long time in Greece where it diversified and became characteristically Greco-Albanian and then spread to other minor parts of Balkans and Italy. It is Balkans J2,Greco-Albanian J2' not Anatolian J2 (J2a)

Then why is it that there is now J2b* sample from Greece? Or at least I don't know any, and only one from the Balkan, from Bulgaria (family name: Mateev).

Yaan
11-04-13, 22:06
J2b is not a marker from greek Lydian antiquity settlement. The Lydia's never went to Greece, they where Turks (J2a). J2a is not found in Greece. It's found in the Middle East ( Armenia, turkey, northwest Iran) only the greek island of Crete, and Italy. J2b symbolizes "standard" mainland/peninsula greek J2. It came a LONG time ago from Middle East, stayed a long time in Greece where it diversified and became characteristically Greco-Albanian and then spread to other minor parts of Balkans and Italy. It is Balkans J2,Greco-Albanian J2' not Anatolian J2 (J2a)
There is a lot of J2a in Greece, in all Balkan countries and Italy J2a is more than J2b. Check before ur speak. Also Turks have J2a now because of Bulgarians,Greeks, Armenians,Georgians etc.etc.
Original Turks did not have J2a.

Yaan
11-04-13, 22:08
Greeks have from J2b2, J2b1 is found in small % in Balkan Slavs, Hungarians etc. J2b* is not that often and yes they Bulgarian guy Mateev from Veliko Tarnovo Central North

adamo
11-04-13, 22:38
Yawn you say that "original Turks" did not have j2a as Cretans and Iranians do.. What exactly is "original" Turks and what did they have?

Yaan
11-04-13, 22:41
Yawn you say that "original Turks" did not have j2a as Cretans and Iranians do.. What exactly is "original" Turks and what did they have?
Original Turks are the people that come to Europe and the Middle East in the 14th century they have R1b,R1a,N,L

adamo
11-04-13, 22:49
But what about J1, J2' G.... Typical middle eastern genetic markers. Turks cluster genetically with many/most other middle eastern ethnic groups. Turks with haplogroup N like the Finns you suggest..... That seems invalid too me and I doubt the "original" Turks had significantly high levels of haplogroup L although I know haplogroups R1b and r1a can be found in certain middle eastern populations...

BakodiP
11-04-13, 22:54
But what about J1, J2' G.... Typical middle eastern genetic markers. Turks cluster genetically with many/most other middle eastern ethnic groups. Turks with haplogroup N like the Finns you suggest..... That seems invalid too me and I doubt the "original" Turks had significantly high levels of haplogroup L although I know haplogroups R1b and r1a can be found in certain middle eastern populations...

He says the the original Turkish, the Turkic ethnic group came from the Central Asian steppes. They conquered the population of Anatolia, and nowaday there is the country of Turkey, but most of its population is not Turkic, but Anatolian, Middle Eastern or from the Balkan. There is a low percentage of Central Asian genetic markers among modern Turkish individuals comparing to Middle Eastern ones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples

adamo
11-04-13, 23:03
So how do they represent modern Turks or Turkish genetics if all the L, N , etc. lineages are no longer representative of the modern ANATOLIAN Turkish people? Most real Turks today are J2 or J1 or G with some R1b, there is no male haplogroup N present here

BakodiP
11-04-13, 23:11
So how do they represent modern Turks or Turkish genetics if all the L, N , etc. lineages are no longer representative of the modern ANATOLIAN Turkish people? Most real Turks today are J2 or J1 or G with some R1b, there is no male haplogroup N present here

See the difference between Turkish and Turkic. Like a Venn diagramm, the modern Turkish nation and the population of Turkey the big circle and the Turkic ethnic people are a small one inside the big one. Although we call the country Turkey and the people Turkish, they have no genetical connection with the original nomad Turkic invaders who conquered the area.

The meaning of this is that they don't represent it, because they couldn't since they are a minority. Yaan was speaking all along about the Turkic people, not about the Anatolian population.

adamo
11-04-13, 23:16
Ohhhh ok sorry my bad maybe I'm stupid

BakodiP
11-04-13, 23:54
5851
I can't explain it easier! :S

http://i45.tinypic.com/14sfp3.jpg

adamo
12-04-13, 00:07
I understand, I'm referring to the modern Turkish people from Asia Minor (Anatolia) so my initial comments withstand I suppose, J2a is more common in Italians, Cretans, ANATOLIANS, Iranians, Lebanese etc... Overall J2b (M-12 in particular) are more frequent in the southern Balkans and may originate there ( the J2B subclade) Greece+AlbaniaAlbania

adamo
12-04-13, 01:38
You are absolutely correct I continued my research and it is true the original TURKIC central Asians had R1b and R1a mixed with rarer Siberian lineages ( Q and N) not to mention that Q would also migrate to, and dominate, both north and South American Indians. But today, in the modern Turkish ANATOLIANS living in Asia Minor, these Siberian lineages are extremely rare, they have been completely destroyed by middle eastern J1,J2,G,T, even some E lineages; the ancient story of the original Turkic people that moved from Central Asia to turkey is lost genetically speaking

kamani
12-04-13, 02:05
Interesting theory! ;) Although my family name sounds really Hungarian. On our family coat of arms we have a flag like Skanderbeg's (red with the black two-headed eagle)

black 2-headed eagle on yellow is the Byzantine empire, black 2-headed eagle on red is the Kastrioti Albanian noble family (who were probably at some point under Byzantium). So that's as certain of a clue as it can get in these cases. Janos Hunyadi and George Kastrioti were allies against the ottomans in the 1400-s and they were the only ones to ever beat them (until "Vienna" in the 1500-s). So I would be proud if I were you, I wish I had that kind of proof around my house.
Genetically, it's hard to get precise with so few people tested in the area...

BakodiP
12-04-13, 09:28
black 2-headed eagle on yellow is the Byzantine empire, black 2-headed eagle on red is the Kastrioti Albanian noble family (who were probably at some point under Byzantium). So that's as certain of a clue as it can get in these cases. Janos Hunyadi and George Kastrioti were allies against the ottomans in the 1400-s and they were the only ones to ever beat them (until "Vienna" in the 1500-s). So I would be proud if I were you, I wish I had that kind of proof around my house.
Genetically, it's hard to get precise with so few people tested in the area...

This is a coat of arms of one branch of my family from the XVII. century (1657-1673), not mine unfortunately. For our side I have only the description of the coat of arms, but the crest is nearly same as this one.

5852
5853

kamani
12-04-13, 12:00
The 2 lions and the cross in the top-left are Hungarian Hunyadi symbols, the black eagle on red is Albanian Kastrioti family, the black eagle on yellow is probably Byzantine (or another Kastrioti), and the white-red squares in the bottom-left are probably croatian. I would say it is older than the 1600-s, because Albania fell to the ottomans in early 1500-s.

Nobody1
12-04-13, 12:14
The 2 lions and the cross in the top-left are Hungarian Hunyadi symbols, the black eagle on red is Albanian Kastrioti family, the black eagle on yellow is probably Byzantine (or another Kastrioti), and the white-red squares in the bottom-left are probably croatian. Very interesting...

agree, but not completely.

Top left is Hungarian Heraldry
Top right is Bohemian Heraldry
Bottom left is Croatian Heraldry
Top Center is Holy Roman Empire [Habsburg Doppeladler on Gold]

Black Doppeladler on red looks Albanian [Kastrioti]

The Lion within the CoA is very interesting, is the head on pike supposed to be a Turk? Which would fit for 17th cen.
Battle of Szentgotthárd and Great Turkish War [Großer Türkenkrieg] in Hungary

at Bakodip

Are you/your family of Hungarian nobility?

BakodiP
12-04-13, 13:22
agree, but not completely.

Top left is Hungarian Heraldry
Top right is Bohemian Heraldry
Bottom left is Croatian Heraldry
Top Center is Holy Roman Empire [Habsburg Doppeladler on Gold]

Black Doppeladler on red looks Albanian [Kastrioti]

The Lion within the CoA is very interesting, is the head on pike supposed to be a Turk? Which would fit for 17th cen.
Battle of Szentgotthárd and Great Turkish War [Großer Türkenkrieg] in Hungary

at Bakodip

Are you/your family of Hungarian nobility?

The coat of arms of Hungary (top left), Croatia (bottom left) and Dalmacia (bottom right) represent the old Kingdom of Hungary. With Bohemia they were part of the Habsburg Empire. And yes, that's possibly a Turkish head. It's surely from the time period which I described above because it was given by Leopold, and the soldier who got it died at 1673.

Yes, my family is a Hungarian noble family, but they all became nobles during the Turks war, and they weren't so wealthy. My direct line in 1593, this coat of arms 1657-1673, and another branch in 1681. All are from neighbouring counties in north-western part of Hungary (Sopron, Vas and Moson).

Nobody1
14-04-13, 07:14
at BakodiP

I thought so, alot of Hungarians were knighted (ordered) during the Great Turkish war and your CoA suggests that. very cool.
I think the union with Bohemia comes from King Sigismunds times.
Hungary is a great historical place especially for central Europe. Im friends with some Fradi supporters and ground hopped Hungary with them in 2010 (also Győr), will def. visit Hungary again.

BakodiP
14-04-13, 12:32
at BakodiP

I thought so, alot of Hungarians were knighted (ordered) during the Great Turkish war and your CoA suggests that. very cool.
I think the union with Bohemia comes from King Sigismunds times.
Hungary is a great historical place especially for central Europe. Im friends with some Fradi supporters and ground hopped Hungary with them in 2010 (also Győr), will def. visit Hungary again.

Great to hear that! ;) I hope you'll have a wonderful stay here again!

BakodiP
14-04-13, 12:34
Map of J2b and it's clades according to FTDNA SNP Maps.

5855

uguner
28-04-13, 03:10
But as Kamani already said, both, M12 and M205 are present in Tatarstan, and M12 occurs throughout Europe, which of course can not be from Bulgars. Why to assume than that M205 spread due to a different cause? Also M205 peaks in west Turkey and I'm not aware of any Bulgar settlements in Anatolia. The little M205 in Bulgaria seems to have swept from neighbouring Turkey rather than from Tatarstan.

There are Bulgarian settlements in North Western Anatolia. You may check out these links: http : // goo.gl/maps/xCjZE and http : // sasedna.ottomanist.info

uguner
28-04-13, 03:21
5851
I can't explain it easier! :S

http : // i45.tinypic.com/14sfp3.jpg

More people from the Balkans and the North, the Slavic lands (Ukraine, Russia, etc), speaking Turkic languages, might have come to Turkey, than the inner Asia.

lugdunum
29-04-13, 19:10
Hello,is this map update? since 2010, a lot of new y dna test have maybe changed it

lugdunum
29-04-13, 19:14
I want to specify that i am talking about j2b1 map

uguner
29-04-13, 20:29
Hello,is this map update? since 2010, a lot of new y dna test have maybe changed it

I have no clue but probably it should have changed up to now.

uguner
29-04-13, 20:30
I want to specify that i am talking about j2b1 map

Okay then sorry for my interrupt. I just wanted to share my opinion about the map.

DejaVu
29-04-13, 21:46
This is a coat of arms of one branch of my family from the XVII. century (1657-1673), not mine unfortunately. For our side I have only the description of the coat of arms, but the crest is nearly same as this one.

5852
5853


Shqiptars or Modern Albanians have nothing to do with Georgia Kastriot or the flag he used. Georgia Kastriot is from the mijak tribe = Macedonian. He did not fight for Albania only for christianity. Language he spoke is the same as todays ethnic macedonians (he did not speak albanian or shqip at all). Modern Albanians are using the wrong flag that have nothing in common with them. Just a borrowed or stolen flag, because they got no history in balkans. Shqiptars (Modern Albanians) are partially from ottoman admixture with local inhabitants (many turks are albanians today in the balkans).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mijaks

Boss
29-04-13, 22:59
Shqiptars or Modern Albanians have nothing to do with Georgia Kastriot or the flag he used. Georgia Kastriot is from the mijak tribe = Macedonian. He did not fight for Albania only for christianity. Language he spoke is the same as todays ethnic macedonians (he did not speak albanian or shqip at all). Modern Albanians are using the wrong flag that have nothing in common with them. Just a borrowed or stolen flag, because they got no history in balkans. Shqiptars (Modern Albanians) are partially from ottoman admixture with local inhabitants (many turks are albanians today in the balkans).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mijaks

This reminds me how the Balkans is the most messed up region in Europe...

DejaVu
29-04-13, 23:46
This reminds me how the Balkans is the most messed up region in Europe...

Thx to United Kingdom (your country), USA and many other for messing it up in the Balkans. Creating artificial states that never existed before. Divide and Conquer as the Roman Empire.

LeBrok
29-04-13, 23:53
This reminds me how the Balkans is the most messed up region in Europe...
It is ironic that many of them emigrate to other countries (Sweden, Germany, Canada, USA), want to be treated as equal there, but do everything to hurt other Balkan nationals. Anything to degrade and undermine fellow Balkan, using their ugly side of nationalism. They are the original Balkans, the Illyrians, the Dacians or the Greeks, the rest are Turks, Africans, Gypsies or even Slavs.
It is so said.

Boss
30-04-13, 01:11
Thx to United Kingdom (your country), USA and many other for messing it up in the Balkans. Creating artificial states that never existed before. Divide and Conquer as the Roman Empire.

I live in the UK but I am not from the UK. I am from the Balkans, just like you. I care about the region as much as you do.

And states are artificial creations anyway. No nation has existed since the beginning of time. But in any case, which nations in the Balkans are artificial and which are non-artificial?

kamani
30-04-13, 01:40
This reminds me how the Balkans is the most messed up region in Europe...
They go nuts when they are reminded of Albanian Christians. It ruins their day for some reason.

lugdunum
30-04-13, 19:48
[QUOTE=adamo;406201]I understand, I'm referring to the modern Turkish people from Asia Minor (Anatolia) so my initial comments withstand I suppose, J2a is more common in Italians, Cretans, ANATOLIANS, Iranians, Lebanese etc... Overall J2b (M-12 in particular) are more frequent in the southern Balkans and may originate there ( the J2B subclade) Greece+AlbaniaAlbania[/QUOare there some reliable figures or survey about j2b1 m205?

lugdunum
30-04-13, 19:50
are there some reliable figures or survey about j2b1 m205?

BakodiP
30-04-13, 23:45
are there some reliable figures or survey about j2b1 m205?
5867

J2b1 map from semargl.me. http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/hg-maps/

lugdunum
01-05-13, 08:53
thanks for the maps. It seems it uses ftdna data.
so it is very different from the map of gentis.ru map for which we don't know if it is based on a survey.
Watching ftdna data we show that j2b1 m205 is essentially situated in south of europe plus west france, UK and Turkey. Its origin may be situated in the south balkans and part of greece like past surveys seem to suggest. How it spread in europe ? neolitic farmers, greek merchants, greek colonies, phoenicians, roman armies, slaves, babarian people. The were so many spreading vectors and all ancient tribes were a "melting pot".
We can build up therories but we have to use data we can rely on ;-)
are there surveys with archeological evidences of j2b1 m205?

lugdunum
01-05-13, 13:08
go to the website biomedcentral

Phylogenetic relationships and Y-chromosome haplogroup absolute and relative frequencies in the following various populations: Anatolian Greeks, mainland Greeks, four regions in Turkey and Provence near known Neolithic settlements.King et al. BMC Evolutionary Biology 2011 11:69 doi:10.1186/1471-2148-11-69


according to this survey j2b1 m205 was present in Sesklo ( thessalia Greece) and Phokaia (anvient greek city on the western coast of anatolia)

albanopolis
30-05-13, 03:17
Shqiptars or Modern Albanians have nothing to do with Georgia Kastriot or the flag he used. Georgia Kastriot is from the mijak tribe = Macedonian. He did not fight for Albania only for christianity. Language he spoke is the same as todays ethnic macedonians (he did not speak albanian or shqip at all). Modern Albanians are using the wrong flag that have nothing in common with them. Just a borrowed or stolen flag, because they got no history in balkans. Shqiptars (Modern Albanians) are partially from ottoman admixture with local inhabitants (many turks are albanians today in the balkans).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mijaks
I find this funny! Scanderbeg did not speak Albanian? But how on earth he comunicated with them. His army was made only by Albanians. Not a single Macedonian. You mean we have taken someones flag? Reason that Scanderbeg waved that flag and weared that helmet was because he beleived Pirro of Epirus South was his forefather. Thre is not such a thing as ethnic Macedonian. There is ethnic Bullgarians or Titos macedonians.

Yetos
30-05-13, 06:49
I find this funny! Scanderbeg did not speak Albanian? But how on earth he comunicated with them. His army was made only by Albanians. Not a single Macedonian. You mean we have taken someones flag? Reason that Scanderbeg waved that flag and weared that helmet was because he beleived Pirro of Epirus South was his forefather. Thre is not such a thing as ethnic Macedonian. There is ethnic Bullgarians or Titos macedonians.

I think except Kastrioti, you must also search the family tree of Aryanit, he was a slav from Fyrom.

zanipolo
30-05-13, 08:29
I find this funny! Scanderbeg did not speak Albanian? But how on earth he comunicated with them. His army was made only by Albanians. Not a single Macedonian. You mean we have taken someones flag? Reason that Scanderbeg waved that flag and weared that helmet was because he beleived Pirro of Epirus South was his forefather. Thre is not such a thing as ethnic Macedonian. There is ethnic Bullgarians or Titos macedonians.

are you saying that the epirotes and albanians are the same people?

FBS
30-05-13, 15:17
are you saying that the epirotes and albanians are the same people?

Epirotes and Albanians are not the same people but Epirotes are an integral part of the Albanian nation today, let us not forget the process and the evolution of nations. Gjergj Kastrioti has brought together Arben and Epir. They spoke similar language with their distinctive differences, and in the long run the Arben (Gheg) have influenced the Epir dialect/language (Tosk) but after standardization is the other way round. So it was give and take on both sides only because they felt akin to one another. The first written documents of old Albanian were Gheg. The Kastriotis were in the middle of these two distinct divisions (middle pre-Albania) and that is why Scanderbeg could bring together the then two distinct groups into what was to become known as modern Albanians. You can see this even today when you travel from Montenegro (where Albanians are)through Kosovo, Macedonia (where Albanians are) and all the way to the south Albania, you can feel the history and realize how did this happen. Those Epirotes simply did not feel akin to Greeks and Arben (Arbër) did not feel akin to Slavs. Tosk and Gheg may have a lot of differences but their language was common (they coudl understand each other without translation) even before Scanderbeg, that is why they stick together and feel as part of the whole Albanian nation.

Honestly I cannot believe the claims similar to DeJavu since they are childish and just a wishful thinking.

adamo
31-05-13, 01:45
Weren't the Toshk Albanians an armeniid race of J2 men similar to Tuscans/Etruscans? Where they in link to the 20% of Albanians that are J2 or is that false?

kamani
31-05-13, 03:27
Weren't the Toshk Albanians an armeniid race of J2 men similar to Tuscans/Etruscans? Where they in link to the 20% of Albanians that are J2 or is that false?
Tosk are the Albanians in the southern half of the country; gheg are the ones in the northern half. So tosk-tuscan is just a name-match coincidence maybe.
J2 is spread evenly in Albania and Kosovo.

adamo
31-05-13, 04:26
I know,Geghs north, toshks are south. But I'm saying a link like dyrrachium, a Trojan colony on coastal Albania. Maybe there's a link between toshks and Tuscans, as the 2 most similar languages to ancient Etruscan are Armenian and Albanian.

BakodiP
31-05-13, 09:39
I know,Geghs north, toshks are south. But I'm saying a link like dyrrachium, a Trojan colony on coastal Albania. Maybe there's a link between toshks and Tuscans, as the 2 most similar languages to ancient Etruscan are Armenian and Albanian.

Quite interesting theory since I attached my family coat of arms before which is displaying an Albanian flag, and my only matches (2) are from Armenia.

zanipolo
31-05-13, 10:54
Quite interesting theory since I attached my family coat of arms before which is displaying an Albanian flag, and my only matches (2) are from Armenia.

your COA is not the albanian symbol its the byzantine eagle , also used by the HRE when sigsmund was emperor. Sigsmund of Hungary

same as this guy's COA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercurio_Bua

kamani
31-05-13, 15:36
your COA is not the albanian symbol its the byzantine eagle , also used by the HRE when sigsmund was emperor. Sigsmund of Hungary

same as this guy's COA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercurio_Bua

Even this guy is Albanian:
Born in Nafplion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nafplion) in the Peloponnese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnese) Bua was a member of Albanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians) or Arvanitian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites) Bua (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bua_family&action=edit&redlink=1) and Arianiti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianiti_family) families.
So 2-headed black eagle on red is Albanian (2-headed eagle as a concept is borrowed from Byzantium).

albanopolis
31-05-13, 16:36
are you saying that the epirotes and albanians are the same people?
I am not saying it. I know that for a fact. I am from there, and albanian. South albania in roman times was called Epiros. Get over it.

albanopolis
31-05-13, 16:44
This reminds me how the Balkans is the most messed up region in Europe...
I don't think he is serious. He just trying to complicate the debate. There are doezens of books written by foreign writters about Scanderbeg and Albanian flag. No one has cast doubt in their authencity.

Yetos
31-05-13, 20:32
Even this guy is Albanian:
Born in Nafplion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nafplion) in the Peloponnese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnese) Bua was a member of Albanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians) or Arvanitian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites) Bua (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bua_family&action=edit&redlink=1) and Arianiti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianiti_family) families.
So 2-headed black eagle on red is Albanian (2-headed eagle as a concept is borrowed from Byzantium).

Bua family Arvanites?

yes and mercedes is a turtle.

search better,

Yetos
31-05-13, 20:34
I don't think he is serious. He just trying to complicate the debate. There are doezens of books written by foreign writters about Scanderbeg and Albanian flag. No one has cast doubt in their authencity.

only the ones who spoke about Kastrioti say a lot of different things, than the one you claim,

there are many posts, written here,
and many authors names, are given, that lived in the same time,

the ones who read, they know,

Yetos
31-05-13, 20:36
I am not saying it. I know that for a fact. I am from there, and albanian. South albania in roman times was called Epiros. Get over it.

Epirus and Epirus Nova, habited by who, and colonised by who?

and what about Illyricum,

since you are from there you know that south Albania in roman times was Makedonia and Epirus,

albanopolis
31-05-13, 21:46
Colonised by nobody. Inhabited by Albanians. Greek colonies were expelled as soon as they formed. Only in Macedonia Greeks managed to have a foothold and finaly helenising it. It did minimal damage to Albanian Epiros. It left 4% of Greek vocabulary. But that was it. Slavs, some of them in Eupedia forums think they are Germanics and not Russian (strange ,no?), use the fact that Albanian language has borrowed very few Greek words, as a proof that Albanians have not been in Ballkans at all.

albanopolis
31-05-13, 21:48
only the ones who spoke about Kastrioti say a lot of different things, than the one you claim,

there are many posts, written here,
and many authors names, are given, that lived in the same time,

the ones who read, they know,Know what? Scanderbeg was Slav Macedonian? Ha,ha, ha.. What kind of joke is this?

zanipolo
31-05-13, 21:49
I am not saying it. I know that for a fact. I am from there, and albanian. South albania in roman times was called Epiros. Get over it.

get over it? ...listen retard, I asked you to confirm your thoughts, that's all, don't go insulting me, propio un mona!.

IF the Romans found any albanians, they would have noted this in there books, but they did not, they only noted for the area, epirotes, macedonians and dardanians . They searched under every rock in the balkans looking for minerals to mine they found and noted all the tribes and peoples.

zanipolo
31-05-13, 21:52
Even this guy is Albanian:
Born in Nafplion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nafplion) in the Peloponnese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnese) Bua was a member of Albanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians) or Arvanitian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites) Bua (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bua_family&action=edit&redlink=1) and Arianiti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianiti_family) families.
So 2-headed black eagle on red is Albanian (2-headed eagle as a concept is borrowed from Byzantium).

All these 2 headed eagles are byzantine in heraldry, the serbs, russians, albanians etc and holy roman empire used it.....it was only used to declare that they where the legitimate continuation of the byzantine empire ( east-roman empire)

albanopolis
31-05-13, 21:54
get over it? ...listen retard, I asked you to confirm your thoughts, that's all, don't go insulting me, propio un mona!.

IF the Romans found any albanians, they would have noted this in there books, but they did not, they only noted for the area, epirotes, macedonians and dardanians . The searched under every rock in the balkans looking for minerals to mineI don't think there exist books for stupid folks. Sorry, can't help much. Books are for people with common sense. Romans wrotte all along about Albanians shithead. 12 of their Emperors were Illyrians( ancient Albanians0

zanipolo
31-05-13, 21:58
Colonised by nobody. Inhabited by Albanians. Greek colonies were expelled as soon as they formed. Only in Macedonia Greeks managed to have a foothold and finaly helenising it. It did minimal damage to Albanian Epiros. It left 4% of Greek vocabulary. But that was it. Slavs, some of them in Eupedia forums think they are Germanics and not Russian (strange ,no?), use the fact that Albanian language has borrowed very few Greek words, as a proof that Albanians have not been in Ballkans at all.

Explain why there is no history of shipping from albanian people in the ancient times........I will tell you, because the "albanian" people are land-locked , more centred in kosovo than albania. One could say the true, pure Albanians are kosovo people

zanipolo
31-05-13, 22:00
I don't think there exist books for stupid folks. Sorry, can't help much. Books are for people with common sense. Romans wrotte all along about Albanians shithead. 12 of their Emperors were Illyrians( ancient Albanians0

your are a lost cause. I find it amusing reading your rubbish....keep it up , it makes my day

zanipolo
31-05-13, 22:05
only the ones who spoke about Kastrioti say a lot of different things, than the one you claim,

there are many posts, written here,
and many authors names, are given, that lived in the same time,

the ones who read, they know,

as per the most recent book
The Castriotas were first mentioned in sources in 1394 and 1410 when John, Scanderbeg’s father, notified the Republic of Venice of his decision to send his son over to the Turks as hostage.17 According to the Turkish sources, the Castriota family originated from the village of Kastrat in northeastern Albania. Unlike the Thopias and the Comnenis, the Castriotas did not have a long history as members of the aristocracy. In fact, their elevation of status began with Scanderbeg’s grandfather, Paul Castriota, who initially owned two villages named Sinja and Lower Gardi.

Paul Castriota line
Pal Kastrioti was a noble man in Albania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_nobility) of the 14th century. Around 1383 he is attested as the ruler of two villages (Sina and Lower Gardi). His father was a kephale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kephale_%28Byzantine_Empire%29) of Kanina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanin%C3%AB_Castle) which belonged to the Principality of Valona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Valona).[dubious (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Disputed_statement) – discuss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pal_Kastrioti#Dubious)] According to Gjon Muzaka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjon_Muzaka) Pal had three sons: Konstantin, Alexius and Gjon Kastrioti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjon_Kastrioti) who was Skanderbeg's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skanderbeg) father.

albanopolis
31-05-13, 22:08
[QUOTE=zanipolo;409171]Explain why there is no history of shipping from albanian people in the ancient times........I will tell you, because the "albanian" people are land-locked , more centred in kosovo than albania. One could say the true, pure Albanians are kosovo people[/Q
No shipping from Albania? The reason that Roman attaked Illyria were Illyrian pirates. Were they swimming? Get your life together dude!!!!

albanopolis
31-05-13, 22:12
your are a lost cause. I find it amusing reading your rubbish....keep it up , it makes my day
Stop desinformation dude! And keep reading my posts. You will learn a lot about the world.

zanipolo
31-05-13, 22:48
as per the most recent book
The Castriotas were first mentioned in sources in 1394 and 1410 when John, Scanderbeg’s father, notified the Republic of Venice of his decision to send his son over to the Turks as hostage.17 According to the Turkish sources, the Castriota family originated from the village of Kastrat in northeastern Albania. Unlike the Thopias and the Comnenis, the Castriotas did not have a long history as members of the aristocracy. In fact, their elevation of status began with Scanderbeg’s grandfather, Paul Castriota, who initially owned two villages named Sinja and Lower Gardi.

Paul Castriota line
Pal Kastrioti was a noble man in Albania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_nobility) of the 14th century. Around 1383 he is attested as the ruler of two villages (Sina and Lower Gardi). His father was a kephale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kephale_%28Byzantine_Empire%29) of Kanina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanin%C3%AB_Castle) which belonged to the Principality of Valona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Valona).[dubious (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Disputed_statement) – discuss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pal_Kastrioti#Dubious)] According to Gjon Muzaka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjon_Muzaka) Pal had three sons: Konstantin, Alexius and Gjon Kastrioti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjon_Kastrioti) who was Skanderbeg's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skanderbeg) father.


From the above..what is a Kephale
Another bit of compelling evidence is found in the Septuagint, the 2BC translation of the Hebrew Old Testament into Greek. When the Hebrew word for “head” (rosh) meant a literal head, the translators translated rosh into kephalē.
http://www.searchingtogether.org/kephale.htm

Sometimes used as a church leader..........

On the difference between castrioti and kastrioti....the true word is Kastrioti, because the italian alphabet does not have K, a C was used which in the end, the surname became divided by different historians in history

zanipolo
31-05-13, 22:49
Stop desinformation dude! And keep reading my posts. You will learn a lot about the world.

ROFL, ignore

Zemra
01-06-13, 07:22
I don't understand this hobby of trölling Albanians in forums.

Shqiptars or Modern Albanians have nothing to do with Georgia Kastriot or the flag he used. Georgia Kastriot is from the mijak tribe = Macedonian. He did not fight for Albania only for christianity. Language he spoke is the same as todays ethnic macedonians (he did not speak albanian or shqip at all). Modern Albanians are using the wrong flag that have nothing in common with them. Just a borrowed or stolen flag, because they got no history in balkans. Shqiptars (Modern Albanians) are partially from ottoman admixture with local inhabitants (many turks are albanians today in the balkans).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mijaks

Skanderbeg relationship with religion it's actually quite complicated as a lot of Christians he tried to persuade made it clear that they preferred an Ottoman rule than a Christian rebellion despite the support from the Pope, despite the title "Athleta Christi" etc meaning it wasn't a Christian vs. Non-Christian war, although this is how you could describe them. Also, he was a polyglot.

...There are so many ironic statements in your post.


I think except Kastrioti, you must also search the family tree of Aryanit, he was a slav from Fyrom.
Nobles.


Weren't the Toshk Albanians an armeniid race of J2 men similar to Tuscans/Etruscans? Where they in link to the 20% of Albanians that are J2 or is that false?
According to old time books Tosks are Alpine. Alpines tend to be Pan-Europeans. Armenid is the Caucaus region, Anatolia, Iran.


get over it? ...listen retard, I asked you to confirm your thoughts, that's all, don't go insulting me, propio un mona!.

IF the Romans found any albanians, they would have noted this in there books, but they did not, they only noted for the area, epirotes, macedonians and dardanians . They searched under every rock in the balkans looking for minerals to mine they found and noted all the tribes and peoples.

Albanian is a Roman term, it means white. They didn't met any Albanians, because the name is new. Most likely derived from Albanoi Ptolemy mentioned, the one every (non Albanian) scholar has mentioned, but you don't believe it exists. Albanoi though, it's only one what might have given the name. In what today are habitated by Albanains, there were many minor groups. Dardasi, for example, were mentioned by John Musachi as being Albanians, part of a coalition with the Musachi (who also saw themselves as Albanian). He mentioned in the beginning they were 60, although didn't mention everyone's names.


Explain why there is no history of shipping from albanian people in the ancient times........I will tell you, because the "albanian" people are land-locked , more centred in kosovo than albania. One could say the true, pure Albanians are kosovo people

Too many inner migrations to point a finger at anyone.


From the above..what is a Kephale
Another bit of compelling evidence is found in the Septuagint, the 2BC translation of the Hebrew Old Testament into Greek. When the Hebrew word for “head” (rosh) meant a literal head, the translators translated rosh into kephalē.
http://www.searchingtogether.org/kephale.htm

Sometimes used as a church leader..........

On the difference between castrioti and kastrioti....the true word is Kastrioti, because the italian alphabet does not have K, a C was used which in the end, the surname became divided by different historians in history

It's says the term it's very widespread in the Balkans used in the Byzantine Period meaning you're going in a dead end on whatever you're trying to find. Kastrioti with a K it's more recent as this is the Albanian standardization.

zanipolo
01-06-13, 08:14
I don't understand this hobby of trölling Albanians in forums.


Skanderbeg relationship with religion it's actually quite complicated as a lot of Christians he tried to persuade made it clear that they preferred an Ottoman rule than a Christian rebellion despite the support from the Pope, despite the title "Athleta Christi" etc meaning it wasn't a Christian vs. Non-Christian war, although this is how you could describe them. Also, he was a polyglot.

...There are so many ironic statements in your post.


Nobles.


According to old time books Tosks are Alpine. Alpines tend to be Pan-Europeans. Armenid is the Caucaus region, Anatolia, Iran.



Albanian is a Roman term, it means white. They didn't met any Albanians, because the name is new. Most likely derived from Albanoi Ptolemy mentioned, the one every (non Albanian) scholar has mentioned, but you don't believe it exists. Albanoi though, it's only one what might have given the name. In what today are habitated by Albanains, there were many minor groups. Dardasi, for example, were mentioned by John Musachi as being Albanians, part of a coalition with the Musachi (who also saw themselves as Albanian). He mentioned in the beginning they were 60, although didn't mention everyone's names.



Too many inner migrations to point a finger at anyone.



It's says the term it's very widespread in the Balkans used in the Byzantine Period meaning you're going in a dead end on whatever you're trying to find. Kastrioti with a K it's more recent as this is the Albanian standardization.


you seem like a clever man, educate your fellow people that they cannot be Illyrians,

from roman historians

propriedicti Illyrii finds a parallel in the
Chorographia
of Pomponius Mela, written between 43–44 AD.Mela (2.55–56) writes that
hoc mare
[the Adriatic],
magno recessu litorum acceptum et vaste quidem inlatitudinem patens, qua penetrat tamen vastius, Il-lyricis usque Tergestum, cetera Gallicis Itali<ci>sque gentibus cingitur. Partheni et Dassaretae prima eiustenent, sequentia Taulantii, Encheleae
[corr. Olivar-ius : encele V]
, Phaeaces. Dein sunt quos proprieIllyrios vocant, tum Piraei et Liburni et Histria
.
20
(“
This sea
[the Adriatic], situated in a large recess of the coast and widely open in its width, in the place where it penetrates for an extensive stretch,is surrounded until Tergeste by Illyrians and on the remaining sides by Italians and Gauls. Partheni and Dasareti hold its first part, then follow Taulantii, Enchelei, and Phaeaces; thereafter come the properly named Illyrians, the Piraei, Liburni and Histria
”).

naming was from south to north.

And OK on your K for the name reasons

kamani
01-06-13, 09:50
educate your fellow people that they cannot be Illyrians,

so that's what is bothering you...Albanians being Illyrians. Since you also pick up fights with Serbs here, I get the impression you want to be ancient in the area but don't want to be associated with Albanians. That sounds like a Croatian or Slovenian, in denial of his identity.

zanipolo
01-06-13, 11:55
so that's what is bothering you...Albanians being Illyrians. Since you also pick up fights with Serbs here, I get the impression you want to be ancient in the area but don't want to be associated with Albanians. That sounds like a Croatian or Slovenian, in denial of his identity.

bullshit claims by albanians saying they are illyrians
bullshit claims by slavs saying they are illyrians, slavs saying they are thracians, germans claiming goths and prussians, swedes claiming goths and prussians, franks ( who are germans ) claiming gallic people etc etc is all wrong and all bullshit, the paranoia of trying to claim one ancient group to claim some kind of futuristic lands is unbelievable. it leads to stupid disputes over bullshit.

The point is , all nations are mongrel nations, mutations of many ancient tribes, they have no claim on any ancient race.

as for your albanians, ...lets see the truth, you have some epirote, some greek, some illyrian, some thracian, some italian, some goth, some vandal, some sarmatian, some egyptian, some jew, some anatolian I can go on and on.........your race is not pure.

Explain why you want to claim some ancient people that do not exist now............let me see your reasons.

BakodiP
01-06-13, 13:14
Instead of attacking each other help me guys! What do you think of my origin? Who could be my ancestors? When they became nobles (1593) they had Hungarian sounding name. They also have the red flag with the double-headed eagle in their CoA.

My only match is an Armenian guy, but he claims his paternal ancestors came from Russia and were caviar merchants during the reign of Catherine the Great. They had a Russian sounding name, but maybe changed when moved to Russia and changed back when they went home to Armenia. (Russian name was Gubov and the Armenian is Proshyan, gub=prosh=lip.) (Our match is distant 800-1200 years ago, so propapbly around 800-1100 AD we had our common ancestor. Haplo: J2b* M241-, M205-.)

I know there were Greek and Armenian caviar mechants in Russia that time, maybe the most famous is Ioannis Varvakis. And there were Greeks, Armenians, Byzantines in Hungary since the Arpads. But many refugees came from the Balkans during the Ottoman Wars as well.

Yetos
01-06-13, 17:15
http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%99%CF%89%CE%AC%CE%BD%CE%BD%CE%B7%CF%82_%CE%9A% CE%B1%CF%83%CF%84%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%8E%CF%84%CE%B7%CF %82

Η οικογένεια πήρε το όνομά της από την πόλη της Καστοριάς (http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9A%CE%B1%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%AC),[1] (http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%99%CF%89%CE%AC%CE%BD%CE%BD%CE%B7%CF%82_%CE%9A% CE%B1%CF%83%CF%84%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%8E%CF%84%CE%B7%CF %82#cite_note-Dictionarium-1) απ' όπου καταγόταν, σύμφωνα με τον Πάπα Πίο Β',[2] (http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%99%CF%89%CE%AC%CE%BD%CE%BD%CE%B7%CF%82_%CE%9A% CE%B1%CF%83%CF%84%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%8E%CF%84%CE%B7%CF %82#cite_note-.CE.91.CE.BB.CE.B2.CE.B1.CE.BD.CE.AF.CE.B1-2)[3] (http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%99%CF%89%CE%AC%CE%BD%CE%BD%CE%B7%CF%82_%CE%9A% CE%B1%CF%83%CF%84%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%8E%CF%84%CE%B7%CF %82#cite_note-.CE.91.CE.BB.CE.B2.CE.B1.CE.BD.CE.BF.CE.AF.2C_.CE. 91.CF.81.CE.B2.CE.B1.CE.BD.CE.AF.CF.84.CE.B5.CF.82 .2C_.CE.88.CE.BB.CE.BB.CE.B7.CE.BD.CE.B5.CF.82.2C_ .CE.A3.CE.B1.CF.81.CE.AC.CE.BD.CF.84.CE.BF.CF.82_. CE.9A.CE.B1.CF.81.CE.B3.CE.AC.CE.BA.CE.BF.CF.82.2C _.CE.92.27_.CE.88.CE.BA.CE.B4.CE.BF.CF.83.CE.B7.2C _2000.2C-3)

According Pope Pios 2nd Kastrioti was from Greece Makedonia ruler of Emtheia and Kasturia,
Kasturia was also inhabited by slavs that time, that is why Kastrioti except the connection with Greeks, also had connection with Slavs like his wife who was Serb, and his general aryanit or agianitis who was from today Fyrom.

sources.




↑ (http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%99%CF%89%CE%AC%CE%BD%CE%BD%CE%B7%CF%82_%CE%9A% CE%B1%CF%83%CF%84%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%8E%CF%84%CE%B7%CF %82#cite_ref-.CE.91.CE.BB.CE.B2.CE.B1.CE.BD.CE.AF.CE.B1_2-0) "Αλβανία", Αχ. Λαζάρου, σελ.86
↑ (http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%99%CF%89%CE%AC%CE%BD%CE%BD%CE%B7%CF%82_%CE%9A% CE%B1%CF%83%CF%84%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%8E%CF%84%CE%B7%CF %82#cite_ref-.CE.91.CE.BB.CE.B2.CE.B1.CE.BD.CE.BF.CE.AF.2C_.CE. 91.CF.81.CE.B2.CE.B1.CE.BD.CE.AF.CF.84.CE.B5.CF.82 .2C_.CE.88.CE.BB.CE.BB.CE.B7.CE.BD.CE.B5.CF.82.2C_ .CE.A3.CE.B1.CF.81.CE.AC.CE.BD.CF.84.CE.BF.CF.82_. CE.9A.CE.B1.CF.81.CE.B3.CE.AC.CE.BA.CE.BF.CF.82.2C _.CE.92.27_.CE.88.CE.BA.CE.B4.CE.BF.CF.83.CE.B7.2C _2000.2C_3-0) "Αλβανοί, Αρβανίτες, Έλληνες", Σαράντος Καργάκος, Β' Έκδοση, 2000, σελ.106 και παραπομπές - σχολιασμός





Πάπυρος Λαρούς Μπριτάνικα, τόμος 32, λήμμα Καστριώτης
Πάπυρος Λαρούς Μπριτάνικα, τόμος 6, λήμμα Αλβανία, Ιστορία της Αλβανίας
Πάπυρος Λαρούς Μπριτάνικα, τόμος 27, λήμμα Ήπειρος, Ιστορία της Ηπείρου
"Αλβανοί, Αρβανίτες, Έλληνες", Σαράντος Καργάκος, Β' Έκδοση, 2000
"Ελλήνων Τόποι, 10.000 Χρόνια Ιστορίας", Πατριδογνωσία
Britannica Encyclopedia, Skanderbeg, 2007
Britannica Encyclopedia, Albania, Medieval Culture, 2007
"Dictionarium Latino Epiroticum", Fransiscus Blanchus
"Ιστορία του Ελληνικού Έθνους, Τόμος Ε', μέρος Β', Κωνσταντίνος Παπαρρηγόπουλος, σχολιασμός Καρολίδη
"Ιστορία του Σουλίου και Πάργας", Χριστόφορος Περραιβός
"Αλβανία", Αχ. Λαζάρου, Νέα Εστία, 1994


Barleti
Ursini
Ahmet Muffit
biografers of that era name him and give his origin as Greek


Jakob Philipp Fallmerayer
Karl Hopf
Consider him as Serbian

Κωνσταντίνος Παπαρρηγόπουλος
considers him as Slav from Slav origin same nationality of Arianit (Fyrom-SlavMakedonian)

Maciamo
04-06-13, 11:46
Seeing those maps, it seems that J2b could have been one of the Indo-European haplogroups alongside R1b, R1a and G2a3b1. That would explain the presence of J2b in the Northwest Caucasus (Maykop region), the Volga region, the Balkans, Central Asia, the Hindu Kush, the Indian subcontinent and Iran.

Another possibility (my original assumption) is that J2b spread in the Neolithic around the Middle East, to Danubian Europe, Iran and Central Asia, then was picked up by the Indo-Europeans in Central Asia (Andronovo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_Culture) and BMAC complex (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria%E2%80%93Margiana_Archaeological_Complex)) before they continued their migration to the Indian subcontinent. The presence of J2b around the Volga would be a back migration from Central Asia or Iran during the Scythian period.

It's too early to determine which hypothesis is the correct one.

adamo
04-06-13, 19:40
The Greeks spread J2b I believe to northern India under Alexander the Great.

kamani
04-06-13, 20:32
The Greeks spread J2b I believe to northern India under Alexander the Great.
yes, but Alexander the Great and his army were Thraco-Illyrian, that's why J2b is mainly Albanian and not Greek.

Yetos
04-06-13, 22:41
yes, but Alexander the Great and his army were Thraco-Illyrian, that's why J2b is mainly Albanian and not Greek.



No Alexander and his army were South-Slavs,
his name was Alexei
I wonder what else we will hear in the forum, :useless:

by following your other posts, yes Alexander was Etruscan from Albanian origin and spoke Pelasgian.
his was not Dorian, but Kelt from Pannoni Basin, and his mother was Albanian from Serb origin,
what else?
oh I forgot,
his army were Viking-Gothic people, who spoke Illyrian-Aromani,
right?

Oh I forgot, also Skudra in his country was a satrapy of Skonder people,
right?

and about Genetics,

E-V13 is a parthenogenesis in Neolithic Balkans in Kossovo,
J2b is Pelasgian so its Albanian also
I2a and I2b and I1 is Illyrian,
and R1b has its origin in North Albania
while R1a has its origin in South Albania.

about mothers,

mtDNA
H has its origin in Kossovo,
X has its origin in North Albania
and J is the trade mark of Illyrian matriarchical ancestry right.
while U mtDNA is characteristic of Pelasgian/etruscan/Illyrian/Albanian (did I forgot something)

kamani
04-06-13, 23:05
one day you will accept the truth Yetos. But anyways, you're way offtopic.

Zemra
12-06-13, 04:52
Barleti
Ursini
Ahmet Muffit
biografers of that era name him and give his origin as Greek


STOP! They give his origin as Epirotean not as Greek. At that time Epirotean referred almost exclusively to Albanians. The Albanian language at that time was known as Epirotean as well. I'll let you search this dictionary to verify:
http://www.gazetarepublika.al/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/frang-bardhi.png

The exclusivity of relating Albanians with Epiroteans persisted for a long time, hence why ethnic maps like these were common:
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT6MRF5tQHzcLVPSeaEd-7UUORU9Ye5_SJm3lfZrdskQdJ0sVwn
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Balkans-ethnic_(1861).jpg

In reality there were Greek and Albanian of Epirus region just like today, but at that time they were only counted as Albanians, which is why Albanians look so widepread in the South in those maps. The coastal area is most likely Albanian.

Yetos
12-06-13, 08:02
STOP! They give his origin as Epirotean not as Greek. At that time Epirotean referred almost exclusively to Albanians. The Albanian language at that time was known as Epirotean as well. I'll let you search this dictionary to verify:
http://www.gazetarepublika.al/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/frang-bardhi.png

The exclusivity of relating Albanians with Epiroteans persisted for a long time, hence why ethnic maps like these were common:
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT6MRF5tQHzcLVPSeaEd-7UUORU9Ye5_SJm3lfZrdskQdJ0sVwn
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Balkans-ethnic_(1861).jpg

In reality there were Greek and Albanian of Epirus region just like today, but at that time they were only counted as Albanians, which is why Albanians look so widepread in the South in those maps. The coastal area is most likely Albanian.

Stop?

are giving me orders?

!rst
Ahmet Mufit names him Yunan,

Barletti

Tell me Epirus Despotate what ethnicity was?
Greek or Albanian?

That Time Epirotan were the Epirus Despotate.

Sorry,

Zemra
20-06-13, 07:44
Stop?

are giving me orders?

!rst
Ahmet Mufit names him Yunan,

Barletti

Tell me Epirus Despotate what ethnicity was?
Greek or Albanian?

That Time Epirotan were the Epirus Despotate.

Sorry,

It wasn't an order, I was telling you you're going in the wrong direction. It's a verbal tic that it didn't translate well when written. I use use to mean 'pause and reflect', but how are you supposed to know.

Epirotean was used for Albanians, that's why those map show Epirus Despotate as majority Albanian. I didn't make them. They were made by foreigners (Russian and French respectively). I can show you tons of others. They apparently just assumed that since it was called Epirus the majority of the population had to be Albanian, because at that time Epiroteans were identified with Albanians. Go on, research the dictionary. Did the Greeks agree with that? I doubt. Just like you now, they probably strongly disagreed. Were they taken into account? No. Just look at those maps.

In Greek made maps, they don't show that region as majority Albanian. They did show mixed populations of Albanians and Greeks in certain regions. I know Greeks differentiated those two. I'm saying that others didn't. Those 'others' include the people you mentioned. That's just how it is.

BakodiP
13-08-13, 23:51
There is another M205-, M241- person who found to be positive for Z574 SNP. He is of Armenian origin (FTDNA ID: 172798.)

Proposed J2b tree:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Isg4fVz1k6-wbMW7mgzT0KG8eKRMJBFeLJeR_2a9J6g/edit

_M12, M102, M221, M314, L282 J2b__ M205 J2b1
__ Z574, Z575
____ M241 J2b2
______ L283
________ Z638
__________ Z1296
____________ Z1297, Z1298
______________ Z631, Z639
________________ Z1043, Z1048

RHAS
22-08-13, 19:37
Analysis of the Geno 2.0 J2b2 M241 Heatmap: https://www.facebook.com/download/467207646662545/Analysis%20of%20the%20J2b2%20M241%20Geno%202.0%20H eatmap.docx

RHAS
22-08-13, 21:27
5851I can't explain it easier! :Shttp://i45.tinypic.com/14sfp3.jpg "The contribution of the Central Asian genetics to the modern Turkish people has been debated and become the subject of several studies. As a result, several studies have concluded that the historical (pre-Islamic) and indigenous Anatolian groups are the primary source of the present-day Turkish population, in addition to neighboring peoples, such as Balkan peoples, and central Asian Turkic people."
Genetic history of the Turkish people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_Turkish_people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_Turkish_people)

Maciamo
30-09-13, 13:32
Just a little update to say that Eupedia now has its own J2b map.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b.gif

LeBrok
30-09-13, 17:16
How can we explain the vast empty spot in Anatolia, between hotspots of Balkans and Kurd's land? South Italy looks little suspicious too.

Ike
26-10-13, 06:11
What's the subclade of Caucasian Avars? Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_group) says they are 72 % J group?

adamo
26-10-13, 06:14
The world's highest J2b frequencies are 14% of Albanians, 10% of north-central Italians, 8% of Pakistan's Hunza people, and then 6.5% of Greeks.

adamo
26-10-13, 06:21
It's literally as if an ancient link to the Balkan Greek world brought J2b to Italy and then Alexander the Great, a Macedonian, spread it from the southern Balkans all the way to Pakistan/India in his conquests much later on as well.

Vinnie
22-07-14, 19:38
Haplogroup J2b is associated with the Neolithic Greeks that spread agriculture. It has been found in the Dravidian middle classes in high frequencies also in the Northwest. Apparantly a proto-Mediterannoid people mingled with the Dravidian peoples before the Indo-Europeans.

.

trdbr1234
25-01-17, 02:24
I know this is old but....

It's funny how today's "Macedonian" state is a complete fabrication and there are people like him calling us a "fabricated" state. There is something close to 200,000 orthodox Albanians in Macedonia and a great deal of Vlach as well(whom are Albanian kin). Most are assimilated but many remember their roots. And its funny how they try to claim this "Macedonian" heritage through the traditions of these assimilated Albanians and Vlach. Kinda reminds me of how the state of Greece is built. All claiming heritage of the ancient people through assimilated Albanians.

Anyways, about the goat. The region of Dibra was highly Pagan in their practices until recently and the goat stems from Alexander the Great and Pirro as well. It was meant to signify strength and superiority I believe. We still have a tradition in Dibra where we spray the foundations of a house with goat blood and bury its head in the foundation before we built a house.

Demetrios
18-05-19, 00:33
I know,Geghs north, toshks are south. But I'm saying a link like dyrrachium, a Trojan colony on coastal Albania. Maybe there's a link between toshks and Tuscans, as the 2 most similar languages to ancient Etruscan are Armenian and Albanian.

Dyrrachium, a Trojan colony? Really? Epidamnos or Epidamnus, later the Roman Dyrrachium (modern Durrës), are all Greek names. This was a Greek colony founded in 627 BCE by a group of Greek colonists from Corinth and Corcyra (modern Corfu).

Demetrios
18-05-19, 01:31
Epirotes and Albanians are not the same people but Epirotes are an integral part of the Albanian nation today, let us not forget the process and the evolution of nations. Gjergj Kastrioti has brought together Arben and Epir. They spoke similar language with their distinctive differences, and in the long run the Arben (Gheg) have influenced the Epir dialect/language (Tosk) but after standardization is the other way round. So it was give and take on both sides only because they felt akin to one another. The first written documents of old Albanian were Gheg. The Kastriotis were in the middle of these two distinct divisions (middle pre-Albania) and that is why Scanderbeg could bring together the then two distinct groups into what was to become known as modern Albanians. You can see this even today when you travel from Montenegro (where Albanians are)through Kosovo, Macedonia (where Albanians are) and all the way to the south Albania, you can feel the history and realize how did this happen. Those Epirotes simply did not feel akin to Greeks and Arben (Arbër) did not feel akin to Slavs. Tosk and Gheg may have a lot of differences but their language was common (they coudl understand each other without translation) even before Scanderbeg, that is why they stick together and feel as part of the whole Albanian nation.

Honestly I cannot believe the claims similar to DeJavu since they are childish and just a wishful thinking.

Epirotes have nothing to do with Albanians. Neither Tosks, nor Labs and Chams which also inhabit modern southern Albania. Albanians migrated in Epirus Vetus (Old and real Epirus) as well as Epirus Nova (New Epirus also known as Illyria Graeca) during the 14th century AD in mass numbers, and a few nomadic families from the 11th century AD. There were no Albanians before that time in Epirus.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/13001350ALBANIANMIGRATIONS.png

Epirotes were always Greek and spoke North-Western Greek dialects in antiquity. They were all Greek tribes.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs_%28English%29.s vg/889px-Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs_%28English%29.s vg.png

Epirus was not just Greek, but part of the proto-Greek region, into which the Greek language developed, therefore not just Greeks, but original Greeks.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png

Demetrios
18-05-19, 01:45
Kastriotis's heraldry is a version of the original Byzantine double-headed eagle with a red background. There is nothing special about it. Many other European and non-European nations use it as a way of claiming Byzantine continuity. There were also many other Greek families who used it.

Arms of the despots Michael and Philip Palaiologos (1410s)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Ulrich_Richental_-_Arms_of_a_Byzantine_despot.png

Banner of the Empire of Trebizond (1385)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Banner_of_the_Empire_of_Trebizond.svg/640px-Banner_of_the_Empire_of_Trebizond.svg.png

By the way, the double-headed eagle symbol, before becoming a Byzantine symbol, it was an originally ancient Greek, Hittite, and Assyrian (from where it probably originated) symbol.

Demetrios
18-05-19, 05:29
STOP! They give his origin as Epirotean not as Greek. At that time Epirotean referred almost exclusively to Albanians. The Albanian language at that time was known as Epirotean as well. I'll let you search this dictionary to verify:
http://www.gazetarepublika.al/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/frang-bardhi.png

The exclusivity of relating Albanians with Epiroteans persisted for a long time, hence why ethnic maps like these were common:
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT6MRF5tQHzcLVPSeaEd-7UUORU9Ye5_SJm3lfZrdskQdJ0sVwn

In reality there were Greek and Albanian of Epirus region just like today, but at that time they were only counted as Albanians, which is why Albanians look so widepread in the South in those maps. The coastal area is most likely Albanian.

There is a reason why these couple of maps appear only after the 18th century AD. It's because these regions, including Epirus (known as Vilayet of Janina) were controlled by Albanian rulers within the broader Ottoman world of course. It's not that Epirotes were counted as Albanians. These maps don't represent any ethnoghraphic or historical accuracy. Were are the Vlachs and the Greeks and the Jews who were all known to have inhabited Epirus and were much more than the Albanians? And by the way, if you want to play with maps, let's see this following from 1681 AD which shows the limits of the Greek world, with Epirus, etc., and Albania being a small region next of Durres, at the very borders of the Greek world. At least this map can be backed historically in contrast to the ones you share.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Atlas_Van_der_Hagen-KW1049B12_088-Exactissima_totius_ARCHIPELACHI_nec_non_GRAECIAE_T ABULA_in_qua_omnes_subjacentes_Regiones_et_Insulae _distincte_ostenduntur.jpeg

And here one from 1730 by G. & L. Valk.

https://www.sanderusmaps.com/content/images/kaarten/169188-15743.jpg

Here is also an ethnographic map from 1880 AD by Ernst Ravenstein.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Ernst-Ravenstein-Balkans-Ethnic-Map-1880.jpg

blevins13
18-05-19, 14:16
Epirotes have nothing to do with Albanians. Neither Tosks, nor Labs and Chams which also inhabit modern southern Albania. Albanians migrated in Epirus Vetus (Old and real Epirus) as well as Epirus Nova (New Epirus also known as Illyria Graeca) during the 14th century AD in mass numbers, and a few nomadic families from the 11th century AD. There were no Albanians before that time in Epirus.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/13001350ALBANIANMIGRATIONS.png

Epirotes were always Greek and spoke North-Western Greek dialects in antiquity. They were all Greek tribes.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs_%28English%29.s vg/889px-Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs_%28English%29.s vg.png

Epirus was not just Greek, but part of the proto-Greek region, into which the Greek language developed, therefore not just Greeks, but original Greeks.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png

Tumulus Burials in South Albania

Tumulus burial ceased in Mycenaean Greece before 1400 b.c., yet when Achilles honours Patroclus in Iliad he uses a method of burial than used only in Albania and farther north. It is likely that Homer here reveals the origins of heroic practice, and very probably the origin of oral epic. The dramatic date of the poem was 200 years after the end of tumulus burial in Mycenaean Greece and Homer himself lived 600 and 700 years after that time. But he went correctly to the north-west for the origin of Achilles, tumulus burial and heroic practices. For Albania was and is the homeland of heroes.

Tumulus-burial in Albania and problems of Ethnogenesis
Iliria Année 1976 4 pp. 127-132

Nicholas G. L. Hammond


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Demetrios
18-05-19, 15:21
Tumulus Burials in South Albania

Tumulus burial ceased in Mycenaean Greece before 1400 b.c., yet when Achilles honours Patroclus in Iliad he uses a method of burial than used only in Albania and farther north. It is likely that Homer here reveals the origins of heroic practice, and very probably the origin of oral epic. The dramatic date of the poem was 200 years after the end of tumulus burial in Mycenaean Greece and Homer himself lived 600 and 700 years after that time. But he went correctly to the north-west for the origin of Achilles, tumulus burial and heroic practices. For Albania was and is the homeland of heroes.

Tumulus-burial in Albania and problems of Ethnogenesis
Iliria Année 1976 4 pp. 127-132

Nicholas G. L. Hammond


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

First of all, tumulus burials never ceased in Greece. We even find them in the Hellenistic era. Not that it really matters, because what Homer describes in his Epics aren't really representing Mycenaean burial practices, but Archaic Greek burial practices. It is one of the elements introduced into the Epics from his timeline, as he did a number of other minor details which didn't really interfere with the main story.

Second, which burial pratices are you referring to in Albania, because i get the idea you mean a number of burial practices in Epirus? Albania didn't exist back then. Epirus did, and was always part of the Greek world, with famous Mycenaean sites such as the ones at Ephyra, Glykys Limin, Dodona, Nekromanteion of Acheron and many mounds.. I am including Korce in the Epirus Mycenaean influence area by the way, since there is obvious Mycenaean presence.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/EpirusMycynaen.jpg

And last but not least, what does all this nonsense has to do with what i shared above? You think this is an argument? Do you even know that Mycenaean DNA has already been established?

blevins13
18-05-19, 17:10
First of all, tumulus burials never ceased in Greece. We even find them in the Hellenistic era. Not that it really matters, because what Homer describes in his Epics aren't really representing Mycenaean burial practices, but Archaic Greek burial practices. It is one of the elements introduced into the Epics from his timeline, as he did a number of other minor details which didn't really interfere with the main story.

Second, which burial pratices are you referring to in Albania, because i get the idea you mean a number of burial practices in Epirus? Albania didn't exist back then. Epirus did, and was always part of the Greek world, with famous Mycenaean sites such as the ones at Ephyra, Glykys Limin, Dodona, Nekromanteion of Acheron and many mounds.. I am including Korce in the Epirus Mycenaean influence area by the way, since there is obvious Mycenaean presence.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/EpirusMycynaen.jpg

And last but not least, what does all this nonsense has to do with what i shared above? You think this is an argument? Do you even know that Mycenaean DNA has already been established?

from Lazaridis (2017)
Quote
“Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter–gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia”.

Than consider

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek

And than you will understand that tumulus in western Balkans are not related to Mycenaean and Proto- Greeks but to Yamnaya people.
Mycenaean (Greeks) shaft graves vs tumulus Yamnaya people.

It is simple and easy, complications related only To the desire of Northern (British and Germans) to connect to Greek culture when is obvious that there is not any connection.



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blevins13
18-05-19, 17:14
Kastriotis's heraldry is a version of the original Byzantine double-headed eagle with a red background. There is nothing special about it. Many other European and non-European nations use it as a way of claiming Byzantine continuity. There were also many other Greek families who used it.

Arms of the despots Michael and Philip Palaiologos (1410s)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Ulrich_Richental_-_Arms_of_a_Byzantine_despot.png

Banner of the Empire of Trebizond (1385)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Banner_of_the_Empire_of_Trebizond.svg/640px-Banner_of_the_Empire_of_Trebizond.svg.png

By the way, the double-headed eagle symbol, before becoming a Byzantine symbol, it was an originally ancient Greek, Hittite, and Assyrian (from where it probably originated) symbol.

Not Byzantine but Roman Eagle.

Here you have the Roman legion of Illyrians from Dalmatia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jovians_and_Herculians

11061

And here is Skenderbeu Eagle

11062


Byzantine as a name is a modern invitation and very misleading.

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Demetrios
18-05-19, 17:49
from Lazaridis (2017)
Quote
“Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter–gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia”.

Than consider

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek

And than you will understand that tumulus in western Balkans are not related to Mycenaean and Proto- Greeks but to Yamnaya people.
Mycenaean (Greeks) shaft graves vs tumulus Yamnaya people.

It is simple and easy, complications related only To the desire of Northern (British and Germans) to connect to Greek culture when is obvious that there is not any connection.



Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

You are just very easy with your nonsense.

First of all, the study mentions "the Mycenaeans had ~4–16% ancestry from a ‘northern’ ultimate source related to the hunter-gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia". 4-16% is literally nothing. And what does this suppose to mean? You bring it as some news, i have already gone through this study from cover to cover, i bet you haven't even read a page of it. What does this suppose to mean i ask again, because i don't feel bad about it.

Second, the tholos tombs that we find in Mycenaean culture were already present in Minoan Crete for more than a 1000 years before they appeared in Mycenaean culture.
http://www.minoancrete.com/kamilari.htm
Yamnayans didn't build tholos tombs, but what is known as kurgan tombs which are different from tholos. Tholos tombs have also been found in Spain pre-IE cultures, they were pretty common in the Mediterranean.

Demetrios
18-05-19, 17:56
Not Byzantine but Roman Eagle.

Here you have the Roman legion of Illyrians from Dalmatia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jovians_and_Herculians

11061

And here is Skenderbeu Eagle

11062


Byzantine as a name is a modern invitation and very misleading.

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You want to use Rome instead of Byzantium, i have no problem with it. Byzantium is a word mis-used by the Western historians to diminish the Roman past of what we know today as Byzantium, if anything i feel better calling it Rome, or Romania/Ρωμανία as it was called.

Second, this is not the Roman eagle, but the double-headed eagle symbol which hails originally from the Hittites and the Assyrians before them. Read the "Ancient Near East" past.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-headed_eagle#Ancient_Near_East

Hittie double-headed eagle. Alaca Höyük city gate, Turkey (1450-1180 BCE).
http://www.ancientpages.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/doubleheadedeagle2.jpg

blevins13
18-05-19, 18:14
You want to use Rome instead of Byzantium, i have no problem with it. Byzantium is a word mis-used by the Western historians to diminish the Roman past of what we know today as Byzantium, if anything i feel better calling it Rome, or Romania/Ρωμανία as it was called.

Second, this is not the Roman eagle, but the double-headed eagle symbol which hails originally from the Hittites and the Assyrians before them. Read the "Ancient Near East" past.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-headed_eagle#Ancient_Near_East

Hittie double-headed eagle. Alaca Höyük city gate, Turkey (1450-1180 BCE).
http://www.ancientpages.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/doubleheadedeagle2.jpg

So the Romans of the new Rome took it from Hittites after seeing in the stones....are you serious????!!!!

See it again and rethink.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jovians_and_Herculians




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blevins13
18-05-19, 18:26
You are just very easy with your nonsense.

First of all, the study mentions "the Mycenaeans had ~4–16% ancestry from a ‘northern’ ultimate source related to the hunter-gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia". 4-16% is literally nothing. And what does this suppose to mean? You bring it as some news, i have already gone through this study from cover to cover, i bet you haven't even read a page of it. What does this suppose to mean i ask again, because i don't feel bad about it.

Second, the tholos tombs that we find in Mycenaean culture were already present in Minoan Crete for more than a 1000 years before they appeared in Mycenaean culture.
http://www.minoancrete.com/kamilari.htm
Yamnayans didn't build tholos tombs, but what is known as kurgan tombs which are different from tholos. Tholos tombs have also been found in Spain pre-IE cultures, they were pretty common in the Mediterranean.

I did not say tholos I said shaft, from tumulus to Shaft is a hard transition, as for when I read Lazaridis from Kavala, look it up on Mycenaean thread. Even for Lazaridis is difficult to bridge Yamnaya with Mycenaean.

And again

The Mycenaean culture commenced circa 1650 BCE and is clearly an imported steppe culture. The close relationship between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages suggest that they split fairly late, some time between 2500 and 2000 BCE. Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaean descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new unique Greek culture.


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Demetrios
18-05-19, 18:46
Rethink what idiot? The Romans of the new Rome were Greeks and native Anatolians (descendants of the Hittites), among other people. They would be very familiar with this symbol. What you show is one of the many dozens shield patterns which doesn't even show a double-headed eagle. And you tell me to rethink it. I show you an actual double-headed eagle and explain to you based on common knowledge that it began from Assyria, moved to Anatolia, and entered Byzantium or New Rome or Eastern Roman Empire or Romania. Plain as that. Then from then on Greeks, Russians, Prussians/Germans, Serbians, Albanians, Montenegrins, and even Turks adopted it, among others.

Demetrios
18-05-19, 19:01
I did not say tholos I said shaft, from tumulus to Shaft is a hard transition, as for when I read Lazaridis from Kavala, look it up on Mycenaean thread. Even for Lazaridis is difficult to bridge Yamnaya with Mycenaean.

And again

The Mycenaean culture commenced circa 1650 BCE and is clearly an imported steppe culture. The close relationship between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages suggest that they split fairly late, some time between 2500 and 2000 BCE. Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaean descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new unique Greek culture.


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Are you serious? You claim to have studied the aforementioned genetic study and you are now suggesting that Mycenaeans descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE? Accept the simple proven fact that Mycenaens only inherited a 4-16% from a Steppe related source, which could have after all had come even from Anatolia via Armenia. Even the study suggests that. But regardless of that, it has already been shown in other papers that the Aegean had close contacts with the Caucasus region even from the early Minoan times, and Caucasus metallurgical skills greatly enhanced Aegean metallurgical skills. Even from the time of Maykop. Greek mythology also gives hints to that.

Second, even for the shaft tombs, Yamnayans had Kurgans with mostly chamber tombs not shaft tombs, like in the Mycenaean culture. And by the way, you seem to be suggesting that shaft tombs was an Indo-European thing, which personally i have no problem accepting, but they have been found all over the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaft_tomb

Last, i don't know what are you trying to say with all these. You keep making hollow arguments without any meaning. Regardless of material cultural influence onto the Mycenaeans by an external source, Mycenaeans were by far and large indigenous in the Aegean with only some 4-16% dilution of the original ancestry that they also shared with the Minoans on Crete.

blevins13
18-05-19, 21:02
Are you serious? You claim to have studied the aforementioned genetic study and you are now suggesting that Mycenaeans descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE? Accept the simple proven fact that Mycenaens only inherited a 4-16% from a Steppe related source, which could have after all had come even from Anatolia via Armenia. Even the study suggests that. But regardless of that, it has already been shown in other papers that the Aegean had close contacts with the Caucasus region even from the early Minoan times, and Caucasus metallurgical skills greatly enhanced Aegean metallurgical skills. Even from the time of Maykop. Greek mythology also gives hints to that.

Second, even for the shaft tombs, Yamnayans had Kurgans with mostly chamber tombs not shaft tombs, like in the Mycenaean culture. And by the way, you seem to be suggesting that shaft tombs was an Indo-European thing, which personally i have no problem accepting, but they have been found all over the world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaft_tomb

Last, i don't know what are you trying to say with all these. You keep making hollow arguments without any meaning. Regardless of material cultural influence onto the Mycenaeans by an external source, Mycenaeans were by far and large indigenous in the Aegean with only some 4-16% dilution of the original ancestry that they also shared with the Minoans on Crete.

I am saying that shaft tombs of Mycenaean have nothing to do with tumulus tombs in western Balkans. Tumulus tombs in Balkan are related to Yamnaya Culture.


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blevins13
18-05-19, 21:12
Rethink what idiot? The Romans of the new Rome were Greeks and native Anatolians (descendants of the Hittites), among other people. They would be very familiar with this symbol. What you show is one of the many dozens shield patterns which doesn't even show a double-headed eagle. And you tell me to rethink it. I show you an actual double-headed eagle and explain to you based on common knowledge that it began from Assyria, moved to Anatolia, and entered Byzantium or New Rome or Eastern Roman Empire or Romania. Plain as that. Then from then on Greeks, Russians, Prussians/Germans, Serbians, Albanians, Montenegrins, and even Turks adopted it, among others.

Roman had an single headed Eagle but after invading Anatolia they are amazed by the double headed one that they sow in a stone.
Ridiculous. And let’s not forget that the Roman were in Anatolia after more than 1000 years of Hittes collapse.

I invite the moderator to moderate language here.

11069


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Yetos
18-05-19, 22:20
wow
Blevins13 strikes again

After his disapontment that he is not Mycenean,

After his yelding parenthesis that Myceneans were hg Ydna N1 and Finno-Ugric

still strikes again,

No matter the answer is given to him many times,
he still yelds about a fail effort of someone in a blog,
that he trust surely,

No matter the answer is given him many times,

https://www.academia.edu/1040916/Giannopoulos_Th._G._2012._The_Greeks_Whence_and_Wh en_The_Mainstream_Scientific_Responses_and_the_Pre sent_State_of_Research_on_the_First_Beginning_of_t he_Greek_Civilization._Herakleion_Crete_University _Press_2013_Award_of_the_Greek_Academy_of_Sciences _

yet even after this he will come back and tell us that Myceneans are Seima Turbino, so Fino-Ugric Siberians, so Ydna N1

PERHAPS Blevins never read about the Trialleti culture.
How typical of the ultras

Blevins13 to you
Greece might have more tumulus than whole Illyricum

click to enlarge
11071


Blevins13 Tumuli density, in Greece
the more Mycenean, the higher density of tumulus

click to enlarge
11072

wow lets compare this above, with Mycenean world,

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Mycenaean_World_en.png




WOW tumuli density follows the Mycenean dwelling density

Blevins13, stop watching Mema, top channel and read stupid blogs and forums,
you have bombard us a lot, with this crap, of Seima-Turbino, taiga, Ydna N1, Fino-Ugric Myceneans
and the tumuli is Albanian and only Albanian, :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Pathetic

Demetrios
18-05-19, 23:34
Mycenaeans didn't have tumulus tombs, they had beehive tholos tombs, just like in southern Crete and some pre-IE Spanish cultures.

You seem to lose the point. The point is that single headed eagle is not double-headed eagle. And it only began re-emerging as a symbol during the Byzantine era or Eastern Roman era. There hasn't been any depiction of it in Illyrian antiquity.

blevins13
18-05-19, 23:57
wow
Blevins13 strikes again

After his disapontment that he is not Mycenean,

After his yelding parenthesis that Myceneans were hg Ydna N1 and Finno-Ugric

still strikes again,

No matter the answer is given to him many times,
he still yelds about a fail effort of someone in a blog,
that he trust surely,

No matter the answer is given him many times,

https://www.academia.edu/1040916/Giannopoulos_Th._G._2012._The_Greeks_Whence_and_Wh en_The_Mainstream_Scientific_Responses_and_the_Pre sent_State_of_Research_on_the_First_Beginning_of_t he_Greek_Civilization._Herakleion_Crete_University _Press_2013_Award_of_the_Greek_Academy_of_Sciences _

yet even after this he will come back and tell us that Myceneans are Seima Turbino, so Fino-Ugric Siberians, so Ydna N1

PERHAPS Blevins never read about the Trialleti culture.
How typical of the ultras

Blevins13 to you
Greece might have more tumulus than whole Illyricum

click to enlarge
11071


Blevins13 Tumuli density, in Greece
the more Mycenean, the higher density of tumulus

click to enlarge
11072

wow lets compare this above, with Mycenean world,

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Mycenaean_World_en.png




WOW tumuli density follows the Mycenean dwelling density

Blevins13, stop watching Mema, top channel and read stupid blogs and forums,
you have bombard us a lot, with this crap, of Seima-Turbino, taiga, Ydna N1, Fino-Ugric Myceneans
and the tumuli is Albanian and only Albanian, :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Pathetic



I never said is Albanian, I am saying is not Mycenaean.


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blevins13
19-05-19, 00:15
Mycenaeans didn't have tumulus tombs, they had beehive tholos tombs, just like in southern Crete and some pre-IE Spanish cultures.

You seem to lose the point. The point is that single headed eagle is not double-headed eagle. And it only began re-emerging as a symbol during the Byzantine era or Eastern Roman era. There hasn't been any depiction of it in Illyrian antiquity.

No point is lost here...my claim is the the Roman Single header transformed in the Double Headed used in Constandinopoje, you claim they got it from Hitties from 2000 years ago before Bronze Age collapse.


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blevins13
19-05-19, 00:21
wow
Blevins13 strikes again

After his disapontment that he is not Mycenean,

After his yelding parenthesis that Myceneans were hg Ydna N1 and Finno-Ugric

still strikes again,

No matter the answer is given to him many times,
he still yelds about a fail effort of someone in a blog,
that he trust surely,

No matter the answer is given him many times,

https://www.academia.edu/1040916/Giannopoulos_Th._G._2012._The_Greeks_Whence_and_Wh en_The_Mainstream_Scientific_Responses_and_the_Pre sent_State_of_Research_on_the_First_Beginning_of_t he_Greek_Civilization._Herakleion_Crete_University _Press_2013_Award_of_the_Greek_Academy_of_Sciences _

yet even after this he will come back and tell us that Myceneans are Seima Turbino, so Fino-Ugric Siberians, so Ydna N1

PERHAPS Blevins never read about the Trialleti culture.
How typical of the ultras

Blevins13 to you
Greece might have more tumulus than whole Illyricum

click to enlarge
11071


Blevins13 Tumuli density, in Greece
the more Mycenean, the higher density of tumulus

click to enlarge
11072

wow lets compare this above, with Mycenean world,

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Mycenaean_World_en.png




WOW tumuli density follows the Mycenean dwelling density

Blevins13, stop watching Mema, top channel and read stupid blogs and forums,
you have bombard us a lot, with this crap, of Seima-Turbino, taiga, Ydna N1, Fino-Ugric Myceneans
and the tumuli is Albanian and only Albanian, :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Pathetic



Show us research saying that Mycenaean used tumulus burials or that shaft graves were tumulus burials ?


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Yetos
19-05-19, 00:52
I never said is Albanian, I am saying is not Mycenaean.


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Blevins 13 after bomberding with crap work all the forum,
now you deny this


Tumulus-burial in Albania and problems of Ethnogenesis
Iliria Année 1976 4 pp. 127-132
Nicholas G. L. Hammond

Tumulus burial ceased in Mycenaean Greece before 1400 b.c., yet when Achilles honours Patroclus in Iliad he uses a method of burial than used only in Albania and farther north. It is likely that Homer here reveals the origins of heroic practice, and very probably the origin of oral epic. The dramatic date of the poem was 200 years after the end of tumulus burial in Mycenaean Greece and Homer himself lived 600 and 700 years after that time. But he went correctly to the north-west for the origin of Achilles, tumulus burial and heroic practices. For Albania was and is the homeland of heroes.


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man
you are spaming what ever,

You are so blind by your hate,
that deny even to see that Myceneans have more tumuli than Epirus and Makedonia,
and still bomb us with shit and crap.

Man simply look the tumuli of Myceneans.
Just click to enlarge

11073

there are more tumuli in Mycanae than in Makedonia and Epirus,


JUST LOOK WHAT YOU SAY


Tumulus burial (generally accepted as marker of Illyrians) in Macedonia close to Mount Olympus before Mycenaean expansion.


https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Paraskevi_Tritsaroli/publication/321866757_The_Pigi_Athinas_tumuli_cemetery_of_mace donian_olympus_Burial_customs_and_the_bioarchaeolo gy_of_social_structures_at_the_dawn_of_the_late_Br onze_Age_central_Macedonia_Greece/links/5b2e63baa6fdcc8506c3edde/The-Pigi-Athinas-tumuli-cemetery-of-macedonian-olympus-Burial-customs-and-the-bioarchaeology-of-social-structures-at-the-dawn-of-the-late-Bronze-Age-central-Macedonia-Greece.pdf?origin=publication_detail


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Read the article....Middle to late Bronze Age (1620-1500 B.C) tumulus burial before Mycenaean expansion.... In my opinion tumulus burial in general are related to Illyrians in Macedonia and Epirus during middle and late Bronze Age. So what petrifies you here ?



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Mycenaean(Seima- Turbino culture) vs Illyrians (Kurgan Culture). So no, at that time only Illyrians used tumulus in the Balkans.



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I don't forget anything......just to clarify Members of this Forum.

For many years Greek archeology has tried to establish a connection between Tumulus burials (Kurgan Culture) and Mycenaean Culure.
But according to The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World, David W Anthony and https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/GreeceMycenae.htm

"The Mycenaeans were West Indo-Europeans (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsFarEast/AsiaIndoEuropeans.htm), part of a much greater expansion and migration of Indo-Europeans (IEs) from the northern shores of the Black Sea and Caspian Sea. A general consensus of scholarly opinion was that they migrated into Eastern Europe (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/BarbarianCulturesEurope.htm) from the Pontic-Caspian steppe in the period between 3300-2600 BC. After having left the main westwards migration of proto-IE around 2500 BC, they gradually blended into the indigenous population in the lower Balkans (the Pelasgians (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/GreecePelasgians.htm)) between then and 2000 BC. However, in recent years that idea has undergone some refinement.
Clearly the Mycenaeans were part of an imported steppe culture. But the close relationship between Mycenaean and proto-Indo-Iranian (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsFarEast/AsiaIndoIranians.htm) languages shows that these two branches divided fairly late, sometime between 2500-2000 BC. Archaeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities to the Seima-Turbino culture (between about 1900-1600 BC) of the northern Russian (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/EasternRussia.htm#Modern) forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites have been found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaeans descended from the steppe into Greece between 1900-1650 BC, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new, unique Greek culture. Naturally, as the new dominant force in the region, their language would also have dominated. The locals had gained between 62% and 86% of their DNA from people who had introduced farming from Anatolia as part of 'Old Europe'. They would have adopted this language fairly quickly and, if not them, then their children or grandchildren would have, which is why modern Greek expresses its IE origins so clearly. However, the IE influence on DNA in Greece was more subtle than across much of Europe, showing that these Mycenaean IEs arriving in Greece were less in number than some of their IE cousins.

The new proto-Greek speakers covered a swathe of territory that reached as far north as Epirus (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/GreeceEpirus.htm). They emerged into the archaeological record rather suddenly, with the appearance of shaft grave royal burials around 1650 BC. but, whilst the first city states had emerged by 1600 BC (the same time at which Mycenaean culture also appears on Cyprus (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/GreeceCyprus.htm)), the Mycenaeans did not form one nation state. Instead they banded their independent city states together under one leader in times of trouble. During their own time they were known primarily as Achaeans, after the Achaea region of Greece."

So there is no relation between tumulus burials and Proto-Greeks, by 1500 BC there were no Greeks neither in Macedonia nor in Epirus. The Mycenaeanization of Macedonia (close to Mount Olympus) started later as stated in this research.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321866757_The_Pigi_Athinas_tumuli_cemetery_of_mace donian_olympus_Burial_customs_and_the_bioarchaeolo gy_of_social_structures_at_the_dawn_of_the_late_Br onze_Age_central_Macedonia_Greece


And it seems that while gathering this info I might have had a brain stroke according to Yetos with illuminating effects.

P.S.It is so fun to see Yetos Bouncing around like a wind-up toy just to deny the obvious, by 1500 BC there were no Greeks neither in Macedonia nor in Epirus.Have a good day.


TO End
Your opinion seems not be an OXYMORON, BUT JUST A MORON.

1) Tumuli is a method of Albanian,
2) at 1500 BC there were not Greeks in Epirus and Makedonia, so Tumuli is Illyrian-Albanian mark in mt Olymp Makedonia
3) Myceneans were Seima Turbino so N1 YDna, Fino-Ugric speakers, so Kurgans no Tumuli,
BUT

Myceneans have more tumuli than Makedonian and Epirus,
Now What 1? the tumuli of Olymp Epirus and Makedonia are Illyrian-Albanian, and the tumuli of Myceneans are not? :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
Now What 2? Myceneans were Illyrians-Albanians and not Seima-Turbino as you claim? :useless: :useless: :useless:
Now What 3? Maybe Seima-Turbino N1 Fino-Ugric had tumuli? :laughing:
Now What 4? to go your claims more far, Maybe Illyrians-Albanians were lets say Tumuli Seima Turbino culture ? :thinking: :thinking: :thinking:

not only pathetic but a mind equation of a moron, only a paranoia can explain your posts,
direct and open,

Here I must ask an apology from the descent Albanian members of forum,
but 2-3 Albanian guys here are .... the nerve, just moron logic.
chewing paranoia gum

blevins13
19-05-19, 02:57
Blevins 13 after bomberding with crap work all the forum,
now you deny this



man
you are spaming what ever,

You are so blind by your hate,
that deny even to see that Myceneans have more tumuli than Epirus and Makedonia,
and still bomb us with shit and crap.

Man simply look the tumuli of Myceneans.
Just click to enlarge

11073

there are more tumuli in Mycanae than in Makedonia and Epirus,


JUST LOOK WHAT YOU SAY











TO End
Your opinion seems not be an OXYMORON, BUT JUST A MORON.

1) Tumuli is a method of Albanian,
2) at 1500 BC there were not Greeks in Epirus and Makedonia, so Tumuli is Illyrian-Albanian mark in mt Olymp Makedonia
3) Myceneans were Seima Turbino so N1 YDna, Fino-Ugric speakers, so Kurgans no Tumuli,
BUT

Myceneans have more tumuli than Makedonian and Epirus,
Now What 1? the tumuli of Olymp Epirus and Makedonia are Illyrian-Albanian, and the tumuli of Myceneans are not? :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
Now What 2? Myceneans were Illyrians-Albanians and not Seima-Turbino as you claim? :useless: :useless: :useless:
Now What 3? Maybe Seima-Turbino N1 Fino-Ugric had tumuli? :laughing:
Now What 4? to go your claims more far, Maybe Illyrians-Albanians were lets say Tumuli Seima Turbino culture ? :thinking: :thinking: :thinking:

not only pathetic but a mind equation of a moron, only a paranoia can explain your posts,
direct and open,

Here I must ask an apology from the descent Albanian members of forum,
but 2-3 Albanian guys here are .... the nerve, just moron logic.
chewing paranoia gum

There is no hate here just search for truth

I can’t neither deny not even confirm this because is not mine but

Tumulus-burial in Albania and problems of Ethnogenesis
Iliria Année 1976 4 pp. 127-132

Nicholas G. L. Hammond

Tumulus burial ceased in Mycenaean Greece before 1400 b.c., yet when Achilles honours Patroclus in Iliad he uses a method of burial than used only in Albania and farther north. It is likely that Homer here reveals the origins of heroic practice, and very probably the origin of oral epic. The dramatic date of the poem was 200 years after the end of tumulus burial in Mycenaean Greece and Homer himself lived 600 and 700 years after that time. But he went correctly to the north-west for the origin of Achilles, tumulus burial and heroic practices. For Albania was and is the homeland of heroes.


Also this one is not mine either so can’t deny that, I find truths in this.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek

The Greek branch

Little is known about the arrival of Proto-Greek speakers from the steppes. The Mycenaean culture commenced circa 1650 BCE and is clearly an imported steppe culture. The close relationship between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages suggest that they split fairly late, some time between 2500 and 2000 BCE. Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaean descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new unique Greek culture.

Also here shaft graves are unlikely to be tumulus

https://www.persee.fr/doc/mom_2259-4884_2012_act_58_1_3482


And here it says that tumulus burial are rare in Greek mainland during Bronze Age.

https://www.persee.fr/doc/mom_2259-4884_2012_act_58_1_3479

So either these guys are crazy and you are right or the other way around.

Members My only passion is truth, so for the sake of it let’s keep the intellectual exchange here based on academic papers.




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Fatherland
19-05-19, 03:09
Tumulus burial ceased in Mycenaean Greece before 1400 b.c., yet when Achilles honours Patroclus in Iliad he uses a method of burial than used only in Albania and farther north. It is likely that Homer here reveals the origins of heroic practice, and very probably the origin of oral epic. The dramatic date of the poem was 200 years after the end of tumulus burial in Mycenaean Greece and Homer himself lived 600 and 700 years after that time. But he went correctly to the north-west for the origin of Achilles, tumulus burial and heroic practices. For Albania was and is the homeland of heroes.


Basically sums up the whole thing. Mycenaeans did not practice Tumulus burials, it was indeed more of a Illyric-Doric practice, practiced by the ancestors of the Albanians, and Achilles. One can find Tumulus everywhere in Albania.

Yetos, seek mental help, you're going insane.

Demetrios
19-05-19, 08:17
Yes, we had a lot of such tombs, but built as beehives tholoi, which are in fact identical to the ones of southern Crete from the 3rd millenium BCE. Dorians had different burial practices to Mycenaeans, but they were also Greeks.

Demetrios
19-05-19, 08:22
No point is lost here...my claim is the the Roman Single header transformed in the Double Headed used in Constandinopoje, you claim they got it from Hitties from 2000 years ago before Bronze Age collapse.


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No, i am saying that, it was obviously still used in Anatolia, and Byzantines simply got it from them. You are the one who is inconsistent. The question is not really how it reemerged, but how it ended up in Albania, and we all know it got there from Byzantine influence just like it did in most other European countries. Bronze Age collapse has nothing to do with that. The symbols are symbols and the depiction i showed you was also seen by native Anatolians back then.

blevins13
19-05-19, 16:20
No, i am saying that, it was obviously still used in Anatolia, and Byzantines simply got it from them. You are the one who is inconsistent. The question is not really how it reemerged, but how it ended up in Albania, and we all know it got there from Byzantine influence just like it did in most other European countries. Bronze Age collapse has nothing to do with that. The symbols are symbols and the depiction i showed you was also seen by native Anatolians back then.

Again the Hittites Double headed Eagle was lost during Bronze Age collapse.
The Single headed Roman Eagle emerged after.
The Romans ruled for more than 2000 years but they needed copy the Hittites Eagle in Anatolia, because there was still in use.
This scenario is very improbable, do you have any academic reference for that.

Not Greek ones.
This is comply off topic, open a new thread for this.

11082


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Demetrios
19-05-19, 16:29
Again the Hittites Double headed Eagle was lost during Bronze Age collapse.
The Single headed Roman Eagle emerged after.
The Romans ruled for more than 2000 years but they needed copy the Hittites Eagle in Anatolia, because there was still in use.
This scenario is very improbable, do you have any academic reference for that.

Not Greek ones.
This is comply off topic, open a new thread for this.

11082


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I still don't understand what you are trying to prove or say. The Roman eagle has nothing to do with the double-headed eagle which is an eastern symbol. As for the single-headed eagle it was a very widespread symbol, many cultures had it, not just the Romans. Even the Persians had it, let alone the Greeks, and many others.

Standard of Cyrus the Great (founder of the first Persian Empire)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/Standard_of_Cyrus_the_Great_%28Achaemenid_Empire%2 9.svg/600px-Standard_of_Cyrus_the_Great_%28Achaemenid_Empire%2 9.svg.png

Demetrios
19-05-19, 16:38
Again the Hittites Double headed Eagle was lost during Bronze Age collapse.
The Single headed Roman Eagle emerged after.
The Romans ruled for more than 2000 years but they needed copy the Hittites Eagle in Anatolia, because there was still in use.
This scenario is very improbable, do you have any academic reference for that.

Not Greek ones.
This is comply off topic, open a new thread for this.

11082


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Read the "Middle Ages" and "Byzantine Empire" paragraphs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-headed_eagle#Middle_Ages

blevins13
19-05-19, 16:54
Read the "Middle Ages" and "Byzantine Empire" paragraphs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-headed_eagle#Middle_Ages

Even after the adoption of Christianity as the Roman Empire's religion, the Aquila eagle continued to be used as a symbol. During the reign of Eastern Roman Emperor Isaac I Komnenos, the single-headed eagle was modified to double-headed to symbolise the Empire's dominance over East and West.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquila_(Roman)

I see your point, but to me this makes more sense.....continuity of the same symbol than coping the Anatolian Hittites Eagle.


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Demetrios
19-05-19, 17:11
Even after the adoption of Christianity as the Roman Empire's religion, the Aquila eagle continued to be used as a symbol. During the reign of Eastern Roman Emperor Isaac I Komnenos, the single-headed eagle was modified to double-headed to symbolise the Empire's dominance over East and West.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquila_(Roman)

I see your point, but to me this makes more sense.....continuity of the same symbol than coping the Anatolian Hittites Eagle.


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I am not per se claiming that the Byzantine or Eastern Roman Empire initially used the double-headed eagle. Of course it continued to use the original Roman eagle. I simply say that the double-headed eagle most likely re-emerged in the Byzantine Empire during the 10-11th century AD and then it influenced all the others who eventually adopted it. The list is long.

Dema
19-05-19, 17:11
This thread is from 2013, everything said about J2-M205 is wrong, including map of M205.




Like:


Very interesting, thanks BakodiP. I just wonder if M205 shows Bulgar or Turkic connection from north of Caspian Sea to Balkans?



No there is no connection. J2-M205 spread thru Mediterranean in various clades which are distant up to 6000 years one from another. And Bulgaria neither Turkey have no connection to these clades, these clades spread most likely with ancient sea travellers.

For example only among Albanias we have 4 clades that separated 6000 years one from another. Furthermore main Balkan clade Y22059 has closest brother clades and matches in Palestine, Qatar, France, Sardinia, England and so on, with difference up to 6000 years.

Dema
19-05-19, 17:35
J2b1 and J2b* from Armenia as well. So it could be that some steppe nomad who was J2b1 went to Bulgaria with the Bulgars or was himself a Bulgar, or Crimean Tatars could bring this haplogroup during the Ottoman rule.


Omg ........
ITs proto Canaanite, Phoenician, EBA I Jordanian mountains....



And spread in multiple sublcades from Lebanon and Palestine all the way to Cyprus, Sardinia, Spain and England in multiple branches with separation time up to 6000 years. Also closest relatives bypassing Turkey and Bulgaria, therefore they even flied or sea traveled.



It has no connection to Tatars, Avars, Hungarians and other Middle Age hordes of uncivilisation. You mistaken J2-M205 with Hungary where you live.

blevins13
19-05-19, 18:16
This thread is from 2013, everything said about J2-M205 is wrong, including map of M205.




Like:





No there is no connection. J2-M205 spread thru Mediterranean in various clades which are distant up to 6000 years one from another. And Bulgaria neither Turkey have no connection to these clades, these clades spread most likely with ancient sea travellers.

For example only among Albanias we have 4 clades that separated 6000 years one from another. Furthermore main Balkan clade Y22059 has closest brother clades and matches in Palestine, Qatar, France, Sardinia, England and so on, with difference up to 6000 years.

Coming to point.


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Dema
19-05-19, 18:28
Coming to point.


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Regarding two headed eagles i wonder is this one authentic ? Patina looks real but i am not that pro http://www.ufo-contact.com/ancient-swastika/hellenistic-thracian-pin


But both sun and swastika were widespread among Illyrians.

blevins13
25-05-19, 17:10
wow
Blevins13 strikes again

After his disapontment that he is not Mycenean,

After his yelding parenthesis that Myceneans were hg Ydna N1 and Finno-Ugric

still strikes again,

No matter the answer is given to him many times,
he still yelds about a fail effort of someone in a blog,
that he trust surely,

No matter the answer is given him many times,

https://www.academia.edu/1040916/Giannopoulos_Th._G._2012._The_Greeks_Whence_and_Wh en_The_Mainstream_Scientific_Responses_and_the_Pre sent_State_of_Research_on_the_First_Beginning_of_t he_Greek_Civilization._Herakleion_Crete_University _Press_2013_Award_of_the_Greek_Academy_of_Sciences _

yet even after this he will come back and tell us that Myceneans are Seima Turbino, so Fino-Ugric Siberians, so Ydna N1

PERHAPS Blevins never read about the Trialleti culture.
How typical of the ultras

Blevins13 to you
Greece might have more tumulus than whole Illyricum

click to enlarge
11071


Blevins13 Tumuli density, in Greece
the more Mycenean, the higher density of tumulus

click to enlarge
11072

wow lets compare this above, with Mycenean world,

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Mycenaean_World_en.png




WOW tumuli density follows the Mycenean dwelling density

Blevins13, stop watching Mema, top channel and read stupid blogs and forums,
you have bombard us a lot, with this crap, of Seima-Turbino, taiga, Ydna N1, Fino-Ugric Myceneans
and the tumuli is Albanian and only Albanian, :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

Pathetic



I saw this map

11103

Coming from the following paper

https://www.persee.fr/doc/mom_2259-4884_2012_act_58_1_3479

You claimed the opposite of what was claimed in the paper.
The paper claims that “tumulus burial are rare in Greek mainland during Bronze Age”

This an example of academic dishonesty under fabrication section.
Statement backed by fabrication of evidence.





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