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Maciamo
12-04-13, 11:24
I have updated the R1b-S28 (U152) history (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S28-U152), adding a section about the Villanova culture:

The expansion of the Urnfield/Halstatt culture to Italy is evident in the form of the Villanovan culture (c. 1100-700 BCE), which shared striking resemblances with the Urnfield/Hallstatt sites of Bavaria and Upper Austria. The Villanova culture marks a clean break with the previous Terramare culture. Although both cultures practised cremation, whereas Terramare people placed cremated remains in communal ossuaries like their Neolithic ancestors, Villanovans used distinctive Urnfield-style double-cone shaped funerary urns, and elite graves containing jewellery, bronze armour and horse harness fittings were separated from ordinary graves, showing for the first time the development of a highly hierarchical society, so characteristic of Indo-European cultures. Quintessential Indo-European decorations, such as swastikas, also make their appearance.

Originally a Bronze-age culture, the Villanova culture introduced iron working to the Italian peninsula around the same time as it appeared in the Hallstatt culture, further reinforcing the link between the two cultures. In all likelihood, the spread of the Villanova culture represents the Italic colonisation of the Italian peninsula. The highest proportion of R1b-S28 is found precisely where the Villanovans were the more strongly established, around modern Tuscany and Emilia-Romagna.

The Villanova culture was succeeded by the Etruscan civilisation, which displayed both signs of continuity with Villanova and new hybrid elements of West Asian origins, probably brought by Anatolian settlers (who would have belonged to a blend of haplogroups E1b1b, G2a, J1, and J2).


Feel free to discuss.

adamo
12-04-13, 15:15
Yes that is all very excellent information in my opinion. The villanovan culture in Italy may have been the first arrival of Celtic R1b people's to Italy,thus showing that these "Germanic" people's similar to French and Swiss Gauls such as Helvetti, where already present on the italian peninsula long before the introduction of French Gauls to northern Italy. This may imply that the original Latin founders of the Roman Empire where in fact, as is seen in Italy today, predominantly R1b men and of the U-152 subclade mixed with later arrival Neolithic elements (J2a of the Turkish Etruscans, who according to Herodotus, migrated from Lydia, Turkey, to north-central Italy roughly from modern day Tire district near Izmir turkey). J2 was also brought in later by the greek colonization s of southern Italy, ( Magna Grecia) along with some haplogroup E. later migrations also saw some E coming to Italy directly via North Africa (Tunisia) to Sicily and low percentages and Some J2 arriving in Middle Ages from Jewish diaspora groups. The haplogroup E that arrived in Italy via Greece is hypothesized to have predominantly arrived in Greece via Egypt then the Middle East/levant coast, then Greece, then Italy. It is my belief that the Italic R1b men that arrived from the alps and the Halstatt culture held the same haplogroup AND subclade of R1b as the men that would move further west from the main Halstatt core area and found the la tene culture near the Meuse,Moselle , Loire area of north eastern France. Subsequently, later migrations of these similar la tene Gauls that did not proceed directly from Halstatt area through alps of Italy hundreds/thousands of years earlier to become Romans, some of these "proper" franco-Swiss Gauls would ALSO migrate to northern italian peninsula and further bolster the R1b U-152 levels even higher , regardless of the tensions and wars every now and then over land and resources between these "different" French Gauls and the Latini Romans proper, who was to me, the same thing.

adamo
12-04-13, 18:01
So to make a resume, to me first arrived the latins of R1b from Halstatt culture to Italy (Villanovans) then after also la tene Gauls ( French/Swiss Gauls) migrate to north Italy also, increasing the same R1b u-152 levels even higher.

adamo
12-04-13, 18:23
Or maybe all these italic Gauls all came from the Meuse-Moselle area as the la tene Gauls did, just during successive migrations at different times. Regardless, there are many ancient Celtic cultures and influences, such as golasecca culture, polada culture , the preceding canegranate culture, etc, first setting up shop in northern Italy and then heading south with time, etc. Wether they came more from the Halstatt core area of southern Bavaria/Austria or more from the la tene Switzerland/ or north-east France area ( the genetics seem to indicate a predominant la tene origin, especially with the very high u-152 in Switzerland and less, but including, France as compared to Bavaria's low percentages and Austria's quasi non existent percentages.) they poured through the alps into Italy from, according to historical accounts , various different migratory movements at different times. ( Canegrante Gauls, golasecca Gauls, polada culture, brennus's sacking Rome, Bellovesus and his Gallic tribes later on, etc.) all R1b people's and mostly U-152 thus implying , maybe all these Gauls where la tene, they just came to Italy at different periods of la tene culture, and some of the first groups to arrive, long separated from brennus's and bellovesus's men etc., may have come to Italy long before, forgot and lost their ancestors, and started the Roman Empire near Rome in lazio , central Italy, as later absorbing and making friendship with invading Neolithic people's of the Middle East/Greece and founding a new and racially rich nation

Nobody1
17-04-13, 13:48
I have updated the R1b-S28 (U152) history (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S28-U152), adding a section about the Villanova culture:

The expansion of the Urnfield/Halstatt culture to Italy is evident in the form of the Villanovan culture (c. 1100-700 BCE), which shared striking resemblances with the Urnfield/Hallstatt sites of Bavaria and Upper Austria. The Villanova culture marks a clean break with the previous Terramare culture. Although both cultures practised cremation, whereas Terramare people placed cremated remains in communal ossuaries like their Neolithic ancestors, Villanovans used distinctive Urnfield-style double-cone shaped funerary urns, and elite graves containing jewellery, bronze armour and horse harness fittings were separated from ordinary graves, showing for the first time the development of a highly hierarchical society, so characteristic of Indo-European cultures. Quintessential Indo-European decorations, such as swastikas, also make their appearance.

Originally a Bronze-age culture, the Villanova culture introduced iron working to the Italian peninsula around the same time as it appeared in the Hallstatt culture, further reinforcing the link between the two cultures. In all likelihood, the spread of the Villanova culture represents the Italic colonisation of the Italian peninsula. The highest proportion of R1b-S28 is found precisely where the Villanovans were the more strongly established, around modern Tuscany and Emilia-Romagna.

The Villanova culture was succeeded by the Etruscan civilisation, which displayed both signs of continuity with Villanova and new hybrid elements of West Asian origins, probably brought by Anatolian settlers (who would have belonged to a blend of haplogroups E1b1b, G2a, J1, and J2).

I disagree,
The Villanova culture was an Umbrian - Pelasgian (Tyrsenoi) culture complex, that doesnt correspond to the realm of R1b-S28 (U-152) and is also in off with Archaeology/Anthropology.
Villanova culture is also not the culture with direct conatct to Hallstatt,
it was the Este culture of NE Italy and to a smaller extent the Golasecca culture of the Lombard Lakes.
Este and Golasecca being offshoots of Villanova.

Este culture - Veneti (North East Italy)
http://pia-journal.co.uk/article/viewFile/329/404/595

Based on Archaeology/Anthropology only the Terremare culture can be considered.

Nobody1
17-04-13, 13:57
Pre-Indo-European and Indo-European

Strictly concerning Anthropology
of the sub-races of the Caucasoid race [Nordic - Alpine - Mediterranean - Armenoid]

The PRE-Indo-European population (Neolithic) attested by archaeology/anthropology was the Dark (hair/eyes) Mediterranid (Dolichocephalic) Caucasoid sub-race and the Dark (hair/eyes) Alpinoid (Brachycephalic) Caucasoid sub-race [Ligurians/Lapps].

Roberto Bosi - The Lapps (1977)
[I]"Then [Rudolf Karl] Virchow. examining a number of Lappish skulls at Helsinki, Lund and Copenhagen, in conjunction with ancient Ligurian skulls, discovered many mutual features suggesting an identical strain."

Smithsonian Institution - Report of the Board of Regents: Vol.45 (1891)
"In another Neolithic cave, called the Caverna della Matta [north Italy], an Iberian skull was found with an index of 68, and a Ligurian skull with an index of 84. No anthropologist would admit that these skulls could have belonged to men of the same race."

Migration of the Indo-European (Proto-Keltic) [Nordic (Caucasoid) sub-race] and the mix with the Pre-Indo-European (Ligurian) [Alpinoid (Caucasoid) sub-race].

Sir William Ridgeway - The early age of Greece Vol.1 (1901)
"It has been pointed out by Dr Verneau "that there is a strong likeness between the skulls from the tumuli of Glasinatz and those found in the graves of Hallstatt, the majority being in both cases dolichocephalic, a craniological phenomenon which is reversed in the case of the Swiss Lake-dwellers."

George Bradshaw - Bradshaw's illustrated hand-book to Switzerland and the Tyrol (1899)
"Swiss Lake-dwellings - In his careful investigations of pile dwellings, Dr. Studer met with two extreme types of skulls, the brachycephalic and the dolikoccphalic; the former, at Schaffis and Lüschery (Lake of Bienne), belonging to the pure Stone period, and the latter, at Vinolz and Sutz, to the Bronze period. The facts point to an invasion by the Bronze men, involving a complete transformation of the group of domestic animals; the horse appears for the first time, and new races of sheep and dogs replace the older forms of the Stone period. The occurrence of mesocephalic, and even considerably shortened skulls, in the Bronze period, shows that there was no extinction of the brachycephalic race, but that the two races mixed."

The link to North Italy

Isaac Taylor - The Origin of the Aryans (1890)
"Towards the close of the neolithic age the same Aryan-speaking race [Indo-Europeans] which constructed the Swiss pile dwellings seems to have crossed the Alps, erecting their pile dwellings in the Italian lakes and in the marshes of the valley of the Po. Helbig has proved that these people must be identified with those whom we call the Umbrians. This conclusion, established solely on archaeological grounds, is confirmed by the close connection between Celtic and Italic speech, and also by the almost identical civilization disclosed by the pile dwellings of Italy [North] and those of Switzerland."

Genetic maps confrim this link of R1b-S28 (U-152) / Terremare - Swiss lakes

The Eupedia map - R1b-S28 (U-152)
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-S28.gif

Busby et al 2011 - R1b-S28 (U-152)
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full
http://imageshack.us/a/img825/4572/busby2011.png

It is clearly [Archaeologically/Anthropologically] that the Terremare culture (1500 BC - 1100 BC) of the Indo-European Umbrians [mixed with Ligurians] via the Swiss lake dwellings is linked the strongest to R1b-S28 (U-152). With R1b-S28 (U-152) having a strong Pre-Indo-European Ligurian [Alpinoid (Caucasoid) sub-race] element.
The R1b S-28 (U-152) presence in Central and South Italy is of course due to the Umbrian expansion (Iron Age) [Sabines/Samnites]

Sir John Linton Myres - Who were the Greeks? (1930)
"Among the lake-dwelling peoples of the Alpine valleys there is some reason to believe that cremation began very early. Yet apparently it was not primitive in this culture, as was formerly supposed, and there was certainly some intrusion of Danubian culture up the more easterly of the Alpine valleys, at a subsequent stage. Consequently it cannot be assumed that the cremation prevalent in regions whither the lake-dwelling culture spread later, for example among the "terremare" folk of the the Po valley, is derived from the Alpine lake-dwellers, primarily or solely; it may have been acquired both by the lake-dwellers and by the "terremare" folk independentely, in or from the Middle Danube valley, where we have already noted its presence."

The Umbrians wre considered to be akin to Gauls and the Ligurians akin to Umbrians [mixed]

Pliny - Natural History (79 AD)
"The race of the Umbri is considered the oldest in Italy."
'They suppose that the Umbri, or, as the Greeks call them, Ombrioi, are so named, because they survived the inundation of the world by floods of rain (imbribus)."
—(C. Plin. lib. ii. Nat. Hist. c. 14.)

James C. Prichard - Ethnography of Europe: Vol.III (1841)
"Solinus informs us that Bocchus, a writer who has been several times cited by Pliny, reported the Umbri to have been descended from the ancient Gauls; and a similar account of their origin has been adopted, either from the same or from different testimony, by Servius, Isidore, and other writers of a late period."
[Bocchus (affranchi lettre de Sylla) absolvit Gallorum veterum propaginem Umbros esse]
[Umbri, Italiae gens est, sed Gallorum veterum propago]

Luke Owen Pike - The English and their Origin (1866)
"If now we consult the Umbrian language with a view of discovering whether it approaches more nearly the Gaelic or the Cymric type, we find, scanty though the evidence may be, that Umbrian differs from Latin in precisely the same manner in which Cymric and Greek differ from Latin. The Latin qu becomes, in Umbrian, as in Welsh and Greek, p: e.g. Latin quatuor, Umbrian petur, Welsh pedwar. The Welsh uch, uchel, appears as the Umbrian ucar, the Greek aixpog; the Welsh hwra as the Umbrian hri, the Greek aipsco;"

Anthropological Society of London - Anthropological review: Vol.V (1867)
"when I look upon the delineations of the crania, the photographs and the figures given by M. Nicolucci himself, it appears to me that the difference between Ligurians and Umbrians, is about equal to the differences between "Allemands" and "Germans."

Plutarch - Lives (120 AD)
"the [Ambrones] often called out their name Ambrones, either to encourage one another or to terrify the Romans by this announcement. The Ligurians, who were the first of the Italic people to go down to battle with them, hearing their shouts, and understanding what they said, responded by calling out their old national name, which was the same, for the Ligurians also call themselves Ambrones when they refer to their origin."

Lucan - Pharsalia (65 AD)
"Ligurian tribes, now shorn, in ancient days First of the long-haired nations [Barbarians], on whose necks Once flowed the auburn [reddish-brown] locks in pride supreme;"

The Terremare Culture

weaponry and tools - from Poviglio [Emilia-Romagna]
http://www.upload-pictures.de/bild.php/29224,tm123YNG.png

Other Terremare finds - note the wheels ornamentation
http://www.upload-pictures.de/bild.php/29225,tm250749.png

characteristic Terremare pottery
http://test.classconnection.s3.amazonaws.com/118/flashcards/134118/png/54.png

Nobody1
17-04-13, 14:18
Interesting to note is Sicily:

R1b in West-Sicily is 30.3% Di Gaetano et al. (2009)
R1b in East Sicily is 18.4% Di Gaetano et al. (2009) of which 12-16% R1b-S28 (U-152) Busby et al. (2011)

http://imageshack.us/a/img825/4572/busby2011.png

according to classical History the Sicani (West Sicily) were Iberians:

James C. Prichard - Ethnography of Europe: Vol.III (1841)
"Thucydides commences his narrative of the war of the Athenians in Sicily with a particular account of that island, and of the races of people who inhabited it.....The Sicani appear to have been the next settlers.......they were Iberes or Iberians: having been expelled from the river Sicanus, in Iberia, by the Ligurians,"

Edwin Guest - Origines Celticae (1883)
"Emporion lay a little north of Barcelona, and in calling it the Liguan Emporion Scylax agrees with Thucydides, who represents the Iberian Sicanoi as having been expelled by the Ligues (Ligures) from the Sikanos, i.e. from the basin of the Ebro.
Next to the Ligues, who dwelt in the neighbourhood of this river, came the mixed Iberes, who reached as far as the Rhone. Festus Avienus amkes this river the dividing line between the Iberes and the Ligures, who inhabited the Alpine district.-"

and the Siculi (East Sicily) were Ligurians R1b-S28 (U-152)

Henry Malden - History of Rome (1830)
"Another story even identified the Siculi and Ligurians. According to the Syracusan historian Philistus, the Siceli (the Siculi of Latin writers), who passed from Italy into Sicily, were Ligurians dislodged from their own country by the Umbrians and Pelasgians."

That might explain why R1b is double as high in west Sicily [Iberian Sicani] but R1b-S28 (U-152) double as high in east Sicily [Ligurian Siculi]

Maciamo
17-04-13, 14:40
Nobody1, if you consider that the Terramare culture was the first Indo-European culture in Italy, then obviously the subsequent Villanova culture was also Indo-European.

Apparently our sources differ about the description of the Terramare culture.

One of the most Celtic-like attribute of the Villanova culture, which I believe is missing in the Terramare culture, are the biconical funerary urns, topped with what looks like a Celtic warrior's helmet. Here are some examples:

http://www.royalathena.com/media/Etruscan/Vases/HMQ52.jpg

http://abingtonlatinone.wikispaces.com/file/view/011.jpg/33582191/011.jpg

http://e-ducation.net/scientists/villanovan_biconical_urn.jpg


It is possible nevertheless that the Terramare culture was also brought by Indo-European R1b from Central Europe, but before a clear Proto-Italo-Celtic culture developed. Like the first waves of R1b to reach the Atlantic coast between 2500 and 2000 BCE, these early R1b adventurers may well have belonged to other lineages than S28/U152. If they were predominantly male warriors, taking local wives after the invasion, it is very possible that their IE language quickly faded away in favour of the native languages, since children learn to speak mostly from their mothers (this is the reason I gave for the survival of Basque language after the R1b invasion). I think that the Terramare culture could have been partially hybridised by IE R1b adventurers, but was not a fully-fledged IE culture like the subsequent Villanova.

adamo
17-04-13, 15:28
Nobody1, you claim that the villanovan culture was umbro-pleas guan, but this is way off the mark. The pelasgians where a J2 people that where found in Crete, northern Anatolia, parts of Thrace. They where the Javan of the bible that moved to Europe such as the rhodanim ( people from Rhodes) related to Anatolian people's and middle eastern Togarmah ( father of Armenians) and Tubal and Meschech ( Georgian meshketi and tibareni) middle eastern J2 people that would eventually these pleas gains or moving middle eastern people's to Mediterranean Europe, affect certain Greeks and Italians. The R1b celts came long before this from the alps , not umbro-pelasgian sea people that are more linked to tyrrhenians than anything else, only the haplogroup I and G must have came before R1b but where not successful obviously e cause of their low trace levels today or subsequently replaced heavily by R1b. R1b u152 did not arrive in Italy via Neolithic sea-farers as you claim it came via the continental alps, just to the northwest probably more to the franco-Swiss side : )

Nobody1
17-04-13, 16:26
at Adamo

just read my posts [post #6] AGAIN.

PS. Pelasgians are the Pre-Indo-European natives of Greece and Anatolia, referred to by Greek historians as Aborigines and the Tyrsenoi of Italy were Pelasgians.

Nobody1
17-04-13, 16:48
Nobody1, if you consider that the Terramare culture was the first Indo-European culture in Italy, then obviously the subsequent Villanova culture was also Indo-European.

Of course, Villanova was equally Indo-European,
Villanova I, Este and Golasecca were all part of the larger Indo-European Urnfield culture complex

But Villanova was an Umbrian and Pelasgian (Tyrsenoi) [Non-Indo-European]
culture[I]-Hybrid. of which the Etruscan civilization emerged.
The Tyrsenoi are the Pelasgians that Herodotus refers to as coming from Lydia, Anatolia.

Louisiana State University - The Southern Review: Vol.I (1828)
Herodotus was followed (with some slight variations) by the majority of ancient writers, Cicero, Strabo, Paterculus, Seneca, Pliny, Plutarch and Servius, to whom we may add, Catullus and Horace. The Etruscans themselves seem to have been of the same opinion. Hellanicus of Lesbos, who was almost contemporary with the father of history, believed that people to be a colony of Pelasgi, direct from Greece.

The story of the Sacrani is also very revealing; and important in understanding the Raeti - Etruscan connection


Apparently our sources differ about the description of the Terramare culture.

Not really, or at least they shouldnt.

Robert Stephen Paul Beekes - Comparative Indo-European Linguistics (2011)
In Italy different moments in time have been suggested for the arrival of Indo-European peoples. The Proto-Villanova culture (as of 1100 B.C.), which is related to the Urnfield culture of central Europe, does not signal the first arrival of the Indo-Europeans. The Terramare-culture (1500-1000 B.C.) was probably developed by an Indo-European people. The Remedello-Rinaldone complex (3200-2500 B.C.) bears all the marks of an Indo-European invasion: a new style of ceramics, a new burial rite, changes in the social structure, the introduction of a warrior aristocracy, the introduction of metallurgy, the horse and the chariot.

Remedello II - [2900-2500 BC] - related to Mondsee (Austria) copper cult. complex
Polada I - Polada II
Terremare - [1600-1100 BC] - substantial Indo-European (Umbrian) migration via Swiss lake-dwellings

Isaac Taylor - The Origin of the Aryans (1890)
"Towards the close of the neolithic age the same Aryan-speaking race [Indo-Europeans] which constructed the Swiss pile dwellings seems to have crossed the Alps, erecting their pile dwellings in the Italian lakes and in the marshes of the valley of the Po. Helbig has proved that these people must be identified with those whom we call the Umbrians. This conclusion, established solely on archaeological grounds, is confirmed by the close connection between Celtic and Italic speech, and also by the almost identical civilization disclosed by the pile dwellings of Italy [North] and those of Switzerland."


One of the most Celtic-like attribute of the Villanova culture, which I believe is missing in the Terramare culture,

Keltic affinities are of course not found in Terremare (1500-1100 BC), since there were no Proper-Keltic-Culture complexes until after Urnfield culture.
Urnfield (1300-700 BC) and Pre-Urnfied (pre 1300 BC) is only Proto-Keltic at best.

But the affinities between Terremare and the proto-Keltic Swiss lake-dwellings and between Umbrians and Gauls are quoted [sources] in post #6

And it is not that Villanova has Keltic elements, its that Hallstatt [first proper Keltic complex] has Villanova elements via the Este culture.

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/6195/greekbalkanscontactfc5.jpg


since children learn to speak mostly from their mothers (this is the reason I gave for the survival of Basque language after the R1b invasion).

Out of the question, Indo-European societies were/are always patriarchal societies.

adamo
17-04-13, 17:18
I agree with all you said, isn't that what I said originally? Villanovans absorbed some pelasgian elements, pelasgian origins , yes, that's what said also I think pretty much lol

Maciamo
17-04-13, 21:20
Robert Stephen Paul Beekes - Comparative Indo-European Linguistics (2011)
In Italy different moments in time have been suggested for the arrival of Indo-European peoples. The Proto-Villanova culture (as of 1100 B.C.), which is related to the Urnfield culture of central Europe, does not signal the first arrival of the Indo-Europeans. The Terramare-culture (1500-1000 B.C.) was probably developed by an Indo-European people. The Remedello-Rinaldone complex (3200-2500 B.C.) bears all the marks of an Indo-European invasion: a new style of ceramics, a new burial rite, changes in the social structure, the introduction of a warrior aristocracy, the introduction of metallurgy, the horse and the chariot.

Remedello II - [2900-2500 BC] - related to Mondsee (Austria) copper cult. complex
Polada I - Polada II
Terremare - [1600-1100 BC] - substantial Indo-European (Umbrian) migration via Swiss lake-dwellings


I am not sure how linguistics can shed light on cultures that have no known language attached to it. Unless you can quote clear archaeological evidence that would point to an Indo-European origin, saying these cultures are IE is pure speculation. Actually, Ötzi belonged to the Remedello culture but belogend to haplogroup G2a and his autosomal DNA, run in Dienekes's Dodecad, had no trace of Northeast European, which one would expect in all Indo-Europeans. We have little data at the moment, but the one we have disproves any IE connection before Villanova or at least Terramare.



And it is not that Villanova has Keltic elements, its that Hallstatt [first proper Keltic complex] has Villanova elements via the Este culture.

It's the first time I hear of Hallstatt or other Bronze Age IE cultures adopting the ways of their non-IE neighbours, but that's a theory worth investigating.


Out of the question, Indo-European societies were/are always patriarchal societies.

In a proper society where both men and women are Indo-European, yes. But if an IE R1b army invades a region, kills the men in battle, rape the women, and leave mostly fatherless R1b bastards behind them, how could they possible inherit their fathers' IE language and patriarchal culture ?

Nobody1
17-04-13, 21:50
I am not sure how linguistics can shed light on cultures that have no known language attached to it. Unless you can quote clear archaeological evidence that would point to an Indo-European origin, saying these cultures are IE is pure speculation. Actually, Ötzi belonged to the Remedello culture but belogend to haplogroup G2a and his autosomal DNA, run in Dienekes's Dodecad, had no trace of Northeast European, which one would expect in all Indo-Europeans. We have little data at the moment, but the one we have disproves any IE connection before Villanova or at least Terramare.

Hmmm....

Robert Stephen Paul Beekes - Comparative Indo-European Linguistics (2011)
The Remedello-Rinaldone complex (3200-2500 B.C.) bears all the marks of an Indo-European invasion: a new style of ceramics, a new burial rite, changes in the social structure, the introduction of a warrior aristocracy, the introduction of metallurgy, the horse and the chariot.

Im not sure which part refers to language, maybe you can point it out or reading it again would help.

Ötzi [~3300 BC] is actually the most important part concerning Archaeology/Anthropology and Genetics.
Ötzi belonged to Remedello I [Neolithic / as also Genetics show] and there is a clear shift within Remedello II,

Remedello II [2900-2500 BC] -

Andrew Jones - Colouring the Past (2002)
The Remedello dagger with its distinctive triangular copper blade with central rib and lunate-shaped pommel with rivets has achieved iconographic status within the archaeological literature as the artefact type par excellence of the North Italian Copper Age (Plate 5). Halberds from the same period can be interpreted as essentially a dagger-type blade hafted to an upright pole (Barfield 1969) The Remedello dagger appears in two main contexts, both highly symbolically charged: as funerary equipment for adult males such as at the type site of Remedello Sotto in the second phase of the cemetery dated at 2900/2800-2500/2400 cal BC.

Vere Gordon Childe - The Dawn of European Civilization (1925)
p.265
The burials at Remedello and elsewhere as far south as the Tiber took place in trench-graves in which the skeleton lay doubled up. But in Central Italy the southern type of chamber tomb was also in use, and a skull from one of these bore traces of red ochre. Long and short-headed skulls occur at Remedello;
p.266
Moreover the Altheim-Mondsee copper culture is not only contemporary with Remedello, but may also have exercised a formative influence on its southern neighbour; for some of its own roots lie further east. Indeed the stone battle-axes which seem to be derivatives of the polygonal type used north of the Alps, may mark an actual descent of Nordic warriors into the Apennine peninsula ..... amber beads and even small bronze daggers betray connection with the North. On the other hand the pottery (Fig. 131), which is paralleled at Remedello, has no obvious prototypes in Switzerland, or in the East Alpine area (Fig. 125). Thus the chalcolithic civilization of Upper Italy was mixed, but distinctly continental in character.

Iorwerth E. S. Edwards - The Cambridge Ancient History (1975) - [Cambridge Uni.]
"The Remedello culture, which ushers in the Copper Age in this region, is known principally from cemeteries of crouched inhumations in earth graves. One type of copper dagger seems to copy an Early Minoan type, but most of the metal goods, chiefly daggers, axes, pins and ornaments, approximate to Central and East-central European types, and these connexions are underlined by other features of the equipment"

thats why i specifically referred to
Remedello II [2900 -2500 BC]
Polada I and Polada II

Arco Stele - 3rd Mil. BC - Remedello II
(decorated with Daggers/Halberds/Axes) compare with Kurgan steles
http://www.comune.pisa.it/gr-archeologico/musvir/stele/arco1.jpghttp://www.rupestre.net/tracce/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/cropped-arco_stele_I.jpg

Nobody1
18-04-13, 03:43
It's the first time I hear of Hallstatt or other Bronze Age IE cultures adopting the ways of their non-IE neighbours, but that's a theory worth investigating.

No,
the Este culture is Indo-European [Veneti] and its the Este culture with extensive contacts to Hallstatt.
With the Este culture as an offschoot of the Villanova culture [Umbro-Pelasgian - Hybrid] thats were the Link between Villanova and Hallstatt comes from (via the Este culture)
Villanova I [1200-900 BC] Villanova II [900-700 BC]
All other info on post #11


In a proper society where both men and women are Indo-European, yes. But if an IE R1b army invades a region, kills the men in battle, rape the women, and leave mostly fatherless R1b bastards behind them, how could they possible inherit their fathers' IE language and patriarchal culture ?

Wouldnt it just be easier to accept that the Non-Indo-European Basques are infact as Non-Indo-European as their fellow ancient Iberians? (based on Archaeology/Anthropology/Linguistics/Historical Docu.)
instead of re-modelling strange Archaeologically/Historically non-attested scenarios?

it seems even by Genetics R1b is not Indo-European and therefore also not the Basques with ~85%:

Bell Beaker culture [Basques/Iberians] (NON-Indo-European/West to East)
http://digital.library.adelaide.edu.au/dspace/bitstream/2440/73014/1/02whole.pdf
Balaresque et al (2009) - R1b
http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1000285

zanipolo
18-04-13, 21:10
@nobody

You are then assuming the Este culture to be already influenced by keltic culture as early as 1000BC................which agrees with the 2012 article that the venetics spoke celtic (linked already in eupedia)

adamo
18-04-13, 21:19
True there was already a Gaulish substratum influence in genetics longgg time ago, today venetians are about 50% R1b due to several waves of migrations at different times in history of Celtic people's.

zanipolo
19-04-13, 09:45
True there was already a Gaulish substratum influence in genetics longgg time ago, today venetians are about 50% R1b due to several waves of migrations at different times in history of Celtic people's.

The only Gaulish tribe I know which went into venetic lands in north-east italy was the carni tribe from southern france, they became today's friuliani. the other tribe is the cennomani which ended up in verona and they where also southern french tribe

Maciamo
19-04-13, 12:36
No,
the Este culture is Indo-European [Veneti] and its the Este culture with extensive contacts to Hallstatt.
With the Este culture as an offschoot of the Villanova culture [Umbro-Pelasgian - Hybrid] thats were the Link between Villanova and Hallstatt comes from (via the Este culture)
Villanova I [1200-900 BC] Villanova II [900-700 BC]
All other info on post #11

So you are saying that the Este culture influenced Hallstatt, although Este is descended from Villanova, which is itself descended from Urnfield/Hallstatt ? It kind of goes in circle.

Since the first IE settlements were in the Danube valley north of the Alps, and all IE people in Italy came from there, why not just say that Villanova and Este are ultimately offshoots from Urnfield/Hallstatt ?

Nobody1
19-04-13, 19:17
at Maciamo

Let me just break down (simplify) what i wrote [quotes/sources] on posts # 6, # 11, # 14.
Its important to note 2 things, time-line and geography.

Remedello II - [2900 - 2500 BC] - Copper Age - North Italy (Alps/Po Valley)
first expansion of Indo-Europeans; mixed Civilization;

Terremare - [1500 - 1100 BC] - Bronze Age - North Italy (Po Valley)
first substantial wave of Indo-Europeans (Umbrians) via Swiss lake-dwellings

Villanova I - [1200 - 900 BC] - Bronze Age - North Italy (Po Valley)
part of Urnfield Culture Complex; Umbrian - Pelasgian (Tyrsenoi) Hybrid;

1 Certosa Situla, 2 Arnoaldi Situla, 3 Warriors from Arnoaldi Situla - from near Bologna, North Italy
http://imageshack.us/a/img163/1714/situla1.png

Villanova II - [900 - 700 BC] - Iron Age - North & Central Italy (Po Valley/Appenines/Tuscany)
emergence of Etruscan Civilization (Tyrsenoi Dominant);
extensive contacts to Greek Colonies (Magna Graecia) Alphabet/Mythology/Pottery

http://imageshack.us/a/img849/7350/etruscan1.png

North Italy in the times of Villanova II [Etruscan Civ.]
was the Golasecca and Este cultures
(BOTH Indo-European [Insubres (Umbrian) / Veneti] and part of the Urnfield culture complex)

Howard H. Scullard - A History of the Roman World (2003) [Kings College - London]
Beside the Villanovans two other main kindred groups who cremated their dead can be distinguished in North Italy from about 900 BC onwards: the Golasecca culture and the Atestine, the former around Lake Maggiore, in Piedmont and Lombardy, and around Lake Como, where regional differences occur; where regional differences occur; the latter around Este (ancient Ateste) in Venetia. The Golaseccans, unlike the Atestines and Villanovans of Bologna, had a warrior class, as is clear from the chariots and weapons found in the graves of some of their chieftains.

Golasecca - [900 - 350 BC] - Bronze Age / Iron Age
Insubres (Umbrians) Indo-Europeans; contacts with Hallstatt;

Golasecca tomb of Sesto-Calende, Lombardy / 7th cen BC
http://www.comune.sesto-calende.va.it/tur_cult/museoweb/1ferro_c/principesche/principesche.htm
http://imageshack.us/a/img819/6448/golasecca1.png

The Lepontic language is associated with the Golasecca culture
http://www.ancient-celts.com/LanguagesLepontic.html

Este - [900 - Roman Times] - Bronze Age / Iron Age
second substantial wave of Indo-Europeans (Veneti); extensive contacts with Hallstatt

Veneti - Bronze Situla Cover - 6th cen BC, from Este - Veneto
http://imageshack.us/a/img209/4842/veneti1.png

Hallstatt proper is only C - D [750 - 400 BC] Hallstatt A - B is Bronze Age Urnfield [1200 - 750 BC] (not distinctive)
Este and Golasecca had extensive contacts with Hallstatt;

http://imageshack.us/a/img214/6537/estecultureck9.jpg

You are correct that it all goes in circles, but keep in mind that Este and Golasecca were kindred to the earlier and more sophisticated Villanova I [Umbrian-Pelasgian Hybrid / Urnfield culture] and Villanova II [Etruscan civ.]

Alphabets of Golasecca and Este coming via Villanova II
[Etruscan (from Greek Cumaen) Runic Alphabet]

Golasecca - Lepontic Inscr. Vergiate, Verese - Lombardy
http://www.artevarese.com/av/files/ec87675ce768e7f4fdff8a3b3937b4d6.jpg

Venetic cup from Lozzo Atestino - Veneto
http://imageshack.us/a/img442/7845/veneti2.png


To really make it simple: 4 important migrations:
1. Copper Age - Indo-European - Remedello II
2. Bronze Age - Indo-European [Umbrian] - Terremare
3. Bronze Age - Non-Indo-European [Pelasgian (Tyrsenoi)] - Villanova I (mixed with Umbrians)
4. Iron Age - Indo-European [Veneti] - Este culture (Urnfield / offshoot Villanova I)

all other info (details) on posts # 6, # 11, #14

zanipolo
19-04-13, 22:07
at Maciamo

Let me just break down (simplify) what i wrote [quotes/sources] on posts # 6, # 11, # 14.
Its important to note 2 things, time-line and geography.

Remedello II - [2900 - 2500 BC] - Copper Age - North Italy (Alps/Po Valley)
first expansion of Indo-Europeans; mixed Civilization;

Terremare - [1500 - 1100 BC] - Bronze Age - North Italy (Po Valley)
first substantial wave of Indo-Europeans (Umbrians) via Swiss lake-dwellings

Villanova I - [1200 - 900 BC] - Bronze Age - North Italy (Po Valley)
part of Urnfield Culture Complex; Umbrian - Pelasgian (Tyrsenoi) Hybrid;

1 Certosa Situla, 2 Arnoaldi Situla, 3 Warriors from Arnoaldi Situla - from near Bologna, North Italy
http://imageshack.us/a/img163/1714/situla1.png

Villanova II - [900 - 700 BC] - Iron Age - North & Central Italy (Po Valley/Appenines/Tuscany)
emergence of Etruscan Civilization (Tyrsenoi Dominant);
extensive contacts to Greek Colonies (Magna Graecia) Alphabet/Mythology/Pottery

http://imageshack.us/a/img849/7350/etruscan1.png

North Italy in the times of Villanova II [Etruscan Civ.]
was the Golasecca and Este cultures
(BOTH Indo-European [Insubres (Umbrian) / Veneti] and part of the Urnfield culture complex)

Howard H. Scullard - A History of the Roman World (2003) [Kings College - London]
Beside the Villanovans two other main kindred groups who cremated their dead can be distinguished in North Italy from about 900 BC onwards: the Golasecca culture and the Atestine, the former around Lake Maggiore, in Piedmont and Lombardy, and around Lake Como, where regional differences occur; where regional differences occur; the latter around Este (ancient Ateste) in Venetia. The Golaseccans, unlike the Atestines and Villanovans of Bologna, had a warrior class, as is clear from the chariots and weapons found in the graves of some of their chieftains.

Golasecca - [900 - 350 BC] - Bronze Age / Iron Age
Insubres (Umbrians) Indo-Europeans; contacts with Hallstatt;

Golasecca tomb of Sesto-Calende, Lombardy / 7th cen BC
http://www.comune.sesto-calende.va.it/tur_cult/museoweb/1ferro_c/principesche/principesche.htm
http://imageshack.us/a/img819/6448/golasecca1.png

The Lepontic language is associated with the Golasecca culture
http://www.ancient-celts.com/LanguagesLepontic.html

Este - [900 - Roman Times] - Bronze Age / Iron Age
second substantial wave of Indo-Europeans (Veneti); extensive contacts with Hallstatt

Veneti - Bronze Situla Cover - 6th cen BC, from Este - Veneto
http://imageshack.us/a/img209/4842/veneti1.png

Hallstatt proper is only C - D [750 - 400 BC] Hallstatt A - B is Bronze Age Urnfield [1200 - 750 BC] (not distinctive)
Este and Golasecca had extensive contacts with Hallstatt;

http://imageshack.us/a/img214/6537/estecultureck9.jpg

You are correct that it all goes in circles, but keep in mind that Este and Golasecca were kindred to the earlier and more sophisticated Villanova I [Umbrian-Pelasgian Hybrid / Urnfield culture] and Villanova II [Etruscan civ.]

Alphabets of Golasecca and Este coming via Villanova II
[Etruscan (from Greek Cumaen) Runic Alphabet]

Golasecca - Lepontic Inscr. Vergiate, Verese - Lombardy
http://www.artevarese.com/av/files/ec87675ce768e7f4fdff8a3b3937b4d6.jpg

Venetic cup from Lozzo Atestino - Veneto
http://imageshack.us/a/img442/7845/veneti2.png


To really make it simple: 4 important migrations:
1. Copper Age - Indo-European - Remedello II
2. Bronze Age - Indo-European [Umbrian] - Terremare
3. Bronze Age - Non-Indo-European [Pelasgian (Tyrsenoi)] - Villanova I (mixed with Umbrians)
4. Iron Age - Indo-European [Veneti] - Este culture (Urnfield / offshoot Villanova I)

all other info (details) on posts # 6, # 11, #14

in 2008 the cremation urns in venetia, in many sites are dated to 1050BC ( so Far ) ...a slight change from the 2003 findings.
Findings by Elisa Perego

good clarity article by you, ty

adamo
20-04-13, 01:32
Zanipolo you are impressing meeee lol, BUT I believe the Venetian carni can be linked to northwestern France's carnutes and the nearby cenomani are also linked to north eastern France's aulerci cenomani. There is both significant genetic and historic information showing affinities between north central Italians and Swiss/French people's. the senones of the Marche region near senigallia ( Gaul of senones) can be found in the north-central Gaul/French senones tribe, etc. just a LOT of data upholding a France-Italy migration over different periods of time.

Pax Augusta
30-11-14, 16:11
I disagree,
The Villanova culture was an Umbrian - Pelasgian (Tyrsenoi) culture complex, that doesnt correspond to the realm of R1b-S28 (U-152) and is also in off with Archaeology/Anthropology.
Villanova culture is also not the culture with direct conatct to Hallstatt,
it was the Este culture of NE Italy and to a smaller extent the Golasecca culture of the Lombard Lakes.

What do you disagree about?

As you know, Umbrians were an Italic people living in North-Central Italy. Proto-Villanovan culture (Villanovan I) dates from c. 1200 BC to c. 900 BC and the Villanovan culture (Villanovan II) from c. 900 BC to c. 700 BC. The first Etruscan inscriptions dates 700 BC. Despite all the genetics studies done so far we still don't know when and if a Tyrrhenian (better not use the term Pelasgian that is a too generic) component settled in what will later known as Etruria. Este culture is said to be an offshot of Proto-Villanovan culture, as Golasecca culture is contemporary of the Villanovan culture (Villanovan II). Well, Proto-Villanovan culture represents Italic colonisation of Italy indeed. Probably not the only and the first.