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Balder
22-04-13, 16:21
No more to Russian or Finnish nationalism nonsense. Rurik was de facto a native to Central Sweden who carried the haplotype N1c1.

Scandinavian origin of the Rurikid N1c1 lineage (Genetic proof)
http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Rurikid.pdf

In the footsteps of Rurik (Archeological artifacts)
http://www.norden.ru/fckeditor/editor/filemanager/connectors/aspx/userfiles/file/Publications/Vikings%20russia.pdf

Rurikid

According to the FamilyTreeDNA Rurikid Dynasty DNA Project, Rurik appears to have belonged to Y-DNA haplogroup N1c1, based on testing of his modern male line descendants. But while genetically related to the later Baltic Finnic peoples, the Rurikids do not possess the DYS390=24 mutation associated with the Finnic languages, theirs remaining the ancestral DYS390=23, with the Rurikid haplotype itself (all values considered) more closely associated with North Germanic speakers (Varangians).

Further genetic studies seem to indicate the existence of two major haplogroups among modern Rurikids: the descendants of Vladimir II Monomakh (Monomakhoviches) and some others are of N1c1 group (130 people or 68%), while the descendants of a junior prince from the branch of Oleg I of Chernigov (Olgoviches) and some others (total 45 peoples or 24%) are of R1a and R1b haplogroups typical for Slavic, Germanic and Celtic peoples.



The Rurik dynasty or Rurikids (Russian: Рю́риковичи, Ukrainian: Рю́риковичі, Belarusian: Ру́рыковичи) was a dynasty founded by the Varangian prince Rurik, who established himself in Novgorod around the year 862 AD. The Rurikids were the ruling dynasty of Kievan Rus' (after 862), the successor principalities of Galicia-Volhynia (after 1199), Chernigov, Vladimir-Suzdal, and the Grand Duchy of Moscow, and the founders of the Tsardom of Russia. They are one of Europe's oldest royal houses, with numerous existing cadet branches.


Rurik or Riurik (Russian: Рюрик, Old East Norse: Rørik, meaning "famous ruler"; ca 830 – ca 879) was a Varangian chieftain who gained control of Ladoga in 862, built the Holmgard settlement near Novgorod, and founded the Rurik Dynasty, which ruled Kievan Rus (and later Grand Duchy of Moscow and Tsardom of Russia) until the 17th century.

Riurik is the Slavic rendering of the same Germanic name as the modern English Roderick, or Spanish and Portuguese Rodrigo. In old Germanic languages it had forms such as Hrodric (Old High German) and Hroðricus (Old English). In Old Norse, the name occurs as Hrœrekr (Norway, Iceland) and Hrørīkr or Rørik (Denmark, Sweden), from which Riurik is derived. The name also appears in Beowulf as Hrēðrīk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurikid

MOESAN
23-04-13, 01:37
at far origin, the Rörik ancestors were akin to Finns' ancestors (as my Breton ancestors are akin in some remote past to a steppic people!)
but historically, according to your documentation, Rörik branch was settled in Sweden and in N-germanic culture and nation for a long time - so I agree with you - history is in evolution - and the "slavophile" tries to deny the scandinavian origin of some of the first Russ astonish me...

adamo
23-04-13, 01:41
N1c is found in no more than 10-12% of swedes on a national level. It arrived from eastern Scandinavia ( Finland and Siberia before that).

Balder
24-04-13, 21:11
The haplogrouping of Rurik is based on the fact that a number of extant royal houses have pretty good claims of descent from Rurik; genotyping a number of individuals from these houses reveals that about 60% (from diverse regions) are N1c1, and in-fact share a number of unique mutations on top of the standard N1c1-defining sites.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mozhayski/teksty/ydna.html


N1c is found in no more than 10-12% of swedes on a national level. It arrived from eastern Scandinavia ( Finland and Siberia before that).
Half of them in Swedes probably came from the Finnish immigration and the Saamis.

However, probably the N1c1 might already have been in Sweden for more than 4500-5000 years, as much as I1, though their numbers have always been small as proposed in this study.
http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/N1c1.pdf

Also, in Northern Eastern Sweden during the pre and Viking age proper (Iron Age Germanic culture in Scandinavia) some kind of Finnic farming people (the Kvens) lived there. Most were conquered and assimilated by the Swedes (Svears) during the 'Viking age' expansion to north, medieval era and later.

Moreover, a native Finnic minority still exists in North, Tornedalians.

F117stealth
29-07-13, 23:00
Sorry to address here this kind of question but how can I add two flags to my profile? Are the muscovites better related with rurikids than gediminids?

adamo
30-07-13, 01:32
Haplogroup N males first arrived on the eastern Finnish border/parts of extreme west Russia, in the last 3000 years, R1b males have been in Europe longest (30,000) years, followed by the men of I (20,000) years. The N1c branch is among the youngest in Europe.

nordicquarreler
30-07-13, 03:27
Adamo, you must be getting your talking points from the Spencer Wells School of Wishful Thinking. Evidence please?

nordicquarreler
30-07-13, 03:31
I'm addressing specifically your R1b 30,000 year old European claim.

adamo
30-07-13, 03:46
My "talking points"? The spencer who college of what? And where can I get a ticket?

nordicquarreler
30-07-13, 04:05
My "talking points"? The spencer who college of what? And where can I get a ticket? My apologies... please allow me to speak in a more simple manner. What proof do you have that R1b has been in Europe for 30,000 years?

adamo
30-07-13, 04:21
I know exactly what you meant the first time, what I know is that both the R1b and I lineages have been in Europe a long time before the N men arrived near Finland. From what I have read, R1b men are comparable to mtdna U females, the first men to colonize Europe and these early pale cro-magnon types helped bring about the end of Neanderthals. By the time the men of I arrived to Europe via Anatolia, the Neanderthals had gone extinct. Other studies claim that hg I came first

nordicquarreler
30-07-13, 06:23
I know exactly what you meant the first time, what I know is that both the R1b and I lineages have been in Europe a long time before the N men arrived near Finland. From what I have read, R1b men are comparable to mtdna U females, the first men to colonize Europe and these early pale cro-magnon types helped bring about the end of Neanderthals. By the time the men of I arrived to Europe via Anatolia, the Neanderthals had gone extinct. Other studies claim that hg I came first O.K. gotcha. There are other y-haplogroups besides hg. I that could have possibly made up Cro-Magnon population(s). These include hg. C, F, G, or even E. I don't think it's reasonable to consider R1b though.

adamo
02-08-13, 10:27
I doubt there where many men of hg G 30,000 years ago in Europe, they where propelled by the Neolithic arriving 15,000 years ago. Hg C men never made their way to Europe, they hugged the southern Asian coasts, moving through Southeast Asia to Australia, and from the Philippines and Japan to Siberia/Mongolia/Kazakhstan ( the latter probably where Mongols under Ghenghis khan invading Central Asia (Kazakhstan) even many Hazara males (40%) are C, probably of the C3 variety in all those central Asian regions.) as for hg F, I don't see how that could be in Europe without a downstream mutation. E3b may have been among them, or it may have arrived more around 10,000-15,000 years ago, just like the G men and J2 men slightly later, would have. I think it's more than reasonable to consider R1b and I y-DNA lineages as having been the first European males, along with mtdna H,V and U females (certain European U lineages,of course.)

nordicquarreler
02-08-13, 11:49
Haplogroup C actually did make it to Europe. There's another thread about it started by a contributor named Anthro. Remaining members are spread very thinly among European populations, but they are indeed there. Also, I think there was a lot more haplogroup G than you realize in ancient Europe. Look at the number of G members being found in archeological sites. All of this is speculation though because we don't have enough really old results in yet. For the R1b introductions, please refer to Maciamo's recent maps which include dates on each of the subclades.

adamo
02-08-13, 12:31
How low are these trace frequencies of C in Europe? G has been found in several sites in Bavaria, italian alps, other nearby areas at low % as well, but its highest in Europe is Sardinia (20%) southern Italy (15%) of males, as high as 25% near foggia and apulia. Greeks have it at lower frequencies 5-7%) highs of 10% maybe in a few regions.

Petter
31-08-13, 21:27
The haplogrouping of Rurik is based on the fact that a number of extant royal houses have pretty good claims of descent from Rurik; genotyping a number of individuals from these houses reveals that about 60% (from diverse regions) are N1c1, and in-fact share a number of unique mutations on top of the standard N1c1-defining sites.
(link removed by Petter, I have fewer than 10 posts)


Half of them in Swedes probably came from the Finnish immigration and the Saamis.

However, probably the N1c1 might already have been in Sweden for more than 4500-5000 years, as much as I1, though their numbers have always been small as proposed in this study.
(link removed by Petter, I have fewer than 10 posts)

Also, in Northern Eastern Sweden during the pre and Viking age proper (Iron Age Germanic culture in Scandinavia) some kind of Finnic farming people (the Kvens) lived there. Most were conquered and assimilated by the Swedes (Svears) during the 'Viking age' expansion to north, medieval era and later.

Moreover, a native Finnic minority still exists in North, Tornedalians.

This is very interesting - the fact that there is an N which is unique to Sweden shows that it is a very old haplogroup in Europe. It most certainly predates that arrival of Finns, and maybe also the arrival of comb-ceramic pottery?

Tomenable
26-08-15, 15:52
Kvens (Kwänen) from Sweden were Finnic-speaking people.

According to this ethnic map from 1847, there were still Kvens living even in inland southern Sweden at that time:

http://historum.com/european-history/55252-kingdom-kvenland.html#post2262773?postcount=9

German-made map in question, published in year 1847:

Fragment showing Kvenland: http://postimg.org/image/52yrnky2j/

Baltic Sea area plus legend: http://postimg.org/image/7bhs4lgwp/full/

http://s9.postimg.org/oxkt9pda5/Kvens_B.png

This 1847 map shows huge inland areas as Kvenish majority + "Schwedische Ansiedlung" (Swedish colonisation).

Kristiina
26-08-15, 19:24
This FamilyTree site is intresting in order to understand Rurikids: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/rurikid/default.aspx?section=ymap

In this map there are two Rurikids in Sweden, one in Finland, one in Romania, one in France, one in UK and one in Siberia.

Proto-Rurikids should be related to the origin of this line, although I admit that the Rurikid line cannot have arisen in Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia, Finland Sweden, Denmark and Norway at the same time. However, it is quite safe to say that the line arose somewhere in the surroundings of the Baltic Sea. Sometimes men move a lot, and their descendants are found here and there.

Kristiina
26-08-15, 19:32
Sometimes men move a lot, and their descendants are found here and there.

And I did not mean that it is or ever was usual for one man to leave descendants here and there; I rather meant that in the course of generations it happens that a son moves to a different place from his father's place.

Tomenable
26-08-15, 19:50
The oldest sample of N1c so far, is from Russian-Belarusian borderland and dates back to the mid-3rd millennium BC:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31502-Chekunova-2014-N1c-and-R1a-samples-of-Proto-East-Balts-(-)?p=464726&viewfull=1#post464726


2) Three medium-aged samples belong to Zhizhitskaya culture from the middle of the 3rd millennium BC. It was under strong cultural influence of Corded Ware and/or Globular Amphora cultures. According to Dolukhanov et al. (page 185), Corded or Globular population penetrated this culture, mixing with the locals:

Sample A6 - site Serteya II - dated to ca. 2500 BC; Y-DNA: N1c, mtDNA: H2

Sample A8 - site Naumovo - dated to ca. 2500 BC; Y-DNA: R1a1, mtDNA: H2

Smple A9 - site Serteya II - dated to ca. 2500 BC; Y-DNA: R1a1, mtDNA: H2

(...)

Zhizhitskaya culture was a Late Neolithic culture of fishermen and farmers, building pile dwellings near lakes and rivers. It was at least partially descended from earlier indigenous North-East European cultures of the Comb Ceramic horizon:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit–Comb_Ware_culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit%E2%80%93Comb_Ware_culture)

Unfortunately there is no detailed info on what subclade that could be.

But if that was L550 then it will mean that L550 emerged in Zhizhitskaya culture, because it is not older than it.

Rurikid branch of N1c is one of sub-branches of L550. Here a nice tree:

http://www.kolumbus.fi/geodun/YDNA/SNP-N-TREE-FIN.jpg

http://www.kolumbus.fi/geodun/YDNA/SNP-N-TREE-FIN.jpg

And here age estimates:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?180582-Indo-Europeanization-of-native-Nordic-people-centuries-before-the-Roman-era&p=3781523&viewfull=1#post3781523


According to age estimates by YFull, TMRCA of VL29 is ca. 4300 years old and L550 ca. 3500 years old (formed):

http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-VL29/

According to many opinions YFull estimates are 10-20% too young, so up to 5400 and 4400 years old respectively.

N1c from Zhizhitskaya culture is from the middle of the 3rd millennium BC (4500 years old +/- a few centuries):

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?180582-Indo-Europeanization-of-native-Nordic-people-centuries-before-the-Roman-era&p=3780515&viewfull=1#post3780515

If this sample turns out to be L550, then we will have 99% proof that Zhizhitskaya is where L550 emerged.

===========================

Do you think that Zhizhitskaya people could be Finnic-speaking and later became Indo-Europeanised?

IIRC, it has been argued that Finnic language was not present in this area (map) in the 3rd millennium BC:

http://postimg.org/image/hsmtvl7xd/

http://s8.postimg.org/fbb2obo11/map_of_locations.png


That N1c sample in question (from the 3rd millennium BC) was found near Serteya (^ map above).

===================
===================

Edit:

I have also asked about this on Anthrogenica:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5252-Kvenish-origin-of-Rurikid-branch-of-N1c&p=104848&viewfull=1#post104848

Kristiina
26-08-15, 21:38
This 1847 map shows huge inland areas as Kvenish majority

Tomenable, I do not know if I have missed something important because I just looked at the FamilyTree map, but why do you think that Rurikid line comes from that strip of land between Norway and Sweden?

Tomenable
26-08-15, 21:46
I don't say it comes from that particular "strip of land", I say it comes from ethnic Kvens who were living there.

And Kvenish-inhabited territory was actually bigger before expansion of Swedish settlers.

The map shows situation as it was in 1847 (not 847!). In 1847 Kvens lived between Swedes and Norwegians, extending almost as far south as Skagerrak and Kattegat, while in the east reaching the coasts of the Gulf of Bothnia - if we believe that map.

One thousand years earlier Kvenish-inhabited territory was even larger than at that time.

Tomenable
26-08-15, 21:54
the fact that there is an N which is unique to Sweden shows that it is a very old haplogroup in Europe.

No - it shows that a person with N1c migrated across (or around) the Baltic Sea into Sweden, and established a clan there. Rurikid branch of N1c is not "very old" at all, it is actually quite young, because it is downstream from L550 subclade.

Kristiina
26-08-15, 22:11
it shows that a person with N1c migrated across (or around) the Baltic Sea into Sweden, and established a clan there

Wikipedia refers to a paper by Jaakko Häkkinen and observes that Rurik's N1c1 haplotype possesses the distinctive value DYS390=23, also rarely found in Scandinavia, but with the closest relatives of the Rurikid haplotype being found in coastal Finland, among the Swedish-speaking Finns.

I have already before noted that this could be taken as refering to the origin of this line in coastal Finland; and I do not think that coastal Swedish-speaking Finns must have come from Sweden as N1c must in any case be older in Baltic area than in Sweden and if there are today Rurikids living in Sweden, can we really be sure that their ancestors were there before Rurik was born.

Ziober
04-03-16, 10:33
Why Galicia? as the celtiberic Galicia... Someone knew the answer... It should be studied.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Galicia%E2%80%93Volhynia

Why there are two Iberias. One is spain-portugal an the other the caucasus Iberia. Don't you feel the need to investigate? I did.

LeBrok
04-03-16, 23:02
Why Galicia? as the celtiberic Galicia... Someone knew the answer... It should be studied.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Galicia%E2%80%93Volhynia

Why there are two Iberias. One is spain-portugal an the other the caucasus Iberia. Don't you feel the need to investigate? I did.
I was musing some time ago about a connection between two Galicias. Perhaps there is some truth to it, if not just based on a fact that many trajectories of population movements went from East to West since bronze age.

Ziober
04-03-16, 23:51
I was musing some time ago about a connection between two Galicias. Perhaps there is some truth to it, if not just based on a fact that many trajectories of population movements went from East to West since bronze age.

I am with you, Lebrok.

RobertColumbia
05-03-16, 08:02
Haplogroup N males first arrived on the eastern Finnish border/parts of extreme west Russia, in the last 3000 years, R1b males have been in Europe longest (30,000) years, followed by the men of I (20,000) years. The N1c branch is among the youngest in Europe.

Actually, R1b as a stone-age European lineage is no longer a widely held theory. I men (including I1 and I2) considerably predate R1b in Europe.

Kristiina
05-03-16, 13:07
@Adamo
Haplogroup N males first arrived on the eastern Finnish border/parts of extreme west Russia, in the last 3000 years, R1b males have been in Europe longest (30,000) years, followed by the men of I (20,000) years. The N1c branch is among the youngest in Europe.

Those were the days when yDNA origins were set on the basis of modern distributions and when ancient yDNA was not available and the haplotype trees and ages were far less clear than they are now. Now we have learnt that high frequencies are often in areas where a haplogroup is recent.

At the moment, the oldest N1c which is probably ancestral to Finnic N1c has been found in Smolensk, Western Russia within Serteya culture, 2500 BC.

Maciamo
05-03-16, 15:17
@Adamo
Haplogroup N males first arrived on the eastern Finnish border/parts of extreme west Russia, in the last 3000 years, R1b males have been in Europe longest (30,000) years, followed by the men of I (20,000) years. The N1c branch is among the youngest in Europe.

Those were the days when yDNA origins were set on the basis of modern distributions and when ancient yDNA was not available and the haplotype trees and ages were far less clear than they are now. Now we have learnt that high frequencies are often in areas where a haplogroup is recent.

At the moment, the oldest N1c which is probably ancestral to Finnic N1c has been found in Smolensk, Western Russia within Serteya culture, 2500 BC.

That's nonsense. Haplogroup R1b is only about 22,000 years old, so it could not have been in Europe 30,000 years ago. It appeared somewhere around the Caspian Sea and only arrived in Eastern Europe between 7,000 and 10,000 years ago, and in the rest of Europe between 6,000 and 3,000 years ago.

There is ample evidence from the age of subclades and of Finnic languages that N1c1 arrived in Finland between 4,500 and 6,000 years ago, not 3,000 years ago.

arvistro
05-03-16, 17:08
There is ample evidence from the age of subclades and of Finnic languages that N1c1 arrived in Finland between 4,500 and 6,000 years ago, not 3,000 years ago.
What kind of evidence?
I do not necessarily disagree to this proposal, but what evidences (subclade or linguistic wise) do we actually have for it?

If you change Finland to Europe (as in West of Urals), then I have no issues :)

Baltic Finnic languages are believed to arise with (fake?) textile ceramics ~1000 bce (I might be slightly wrong with this number, must recheck) and only then spread to i.e. Finland (some other para-Uralic, para-Finnic or similar language speakers might have arived before, but direct linguistic ancestors of moder Finns most likely only AD).

Edit: mainstream linguistic evidence actually settles the earliest possible date for proto-Uralic (the common ancestor of all survived Uralic languages) not later than proto-Indo-Iranian and located next to proto-Indo-Iranian based on PII loanwords in proto-Uralic. Which would be North of Sintashta ~2000 bce?

RobertColumbia
05-03-16, 18:12
@Adamo
Haplogroup N males first arrived on the eastern Finnish border/parts of extreme west Russia, in the last 3000 years, R1b males have been in Europe longest (30,000) years, followed by the men of I (20,000) years. The N1c branch is among the youngest in Europe.

Those were the days when yDNA origins were set on the basis of modern distributions and when ancient yDNA was not available and the haplotype trees and ages were far less clear than they are now. Now we have learnt that high frequencies are often in areas where a haplogroup is recent.

At the moment, the oldest N1c which is probably ancestral to Finnic N1c has been found in Smolensk, Western Russia within Serteya culture, 2500 BC.

Good points. Consider R1b distributions. Ireland is 80% R1b, but nearly all of that R1b belongs to a few fairly recent Celtic and Germanic clades. Modern Turkey/Anatolia has more J2 than R1b, but the R1b that it does have is very diverse and very ancient. This is how we have concluded that R1b most likely spread east to west. During each part of the western movement, some clades dropped out due to men dying without sons or deciding not to migrate any further west.

Kristiina
06-03-16, 11:44
Arvistro, if you insist in the theory that Baltic Finnic languages have arisen with textile ceramics 1000 bce, N1c-VL29 in Finland is Corded Ware and Indo-European, because N1c-VL29 is oldest around the Baltic Sea in the Corded Ware area, and only Z1936 is Uralic as it looks like having arisen in the forest area between Northern Volga and Karelia.

The paper I referred to before (http://www.sarks.fi/fa/PDF/FA13_51.pdf) concludes that “Archaeological research over the past few decades has shown that the Net Ware culture (textile ceramics) in the territories to the north of the Volga was completely overlapped by and mixed with the Uralic Ananyino culture during the Early Iron Age. (…) A comparative analysis of the strata of ancient place names in Karelia suggests the conclusion that the earliest 'Volgic' layer of local names for bodies of water most probably corresponds to the Net Ware culture, while the Lapp (Sami) hydronyms correspond to the Ananyino stratum of the Iron Age and the Baltic-Finnish place names to the early medieval culture of the 10th and 11th centuries in southeastern Karelia (Kosmenko 1993).”

As Finnish is very close to Estonian and Finnic languages (including Estonian and Finnish) are close to Mordvin language (spoken to the southeast of Estonia), and Saami language is further apart, it is also possible that Finnic languages developed from of the Corded Ware Culture and Saami languages developed from the Iron Age Net Ware culture.

Ancient yDNA and autosomal data would make the picture much clearer.

Kristiina
06-03-16, 11:48
I got moderated again because I attached a link to a PDF document! In spite of this, I post my comment again twice although it creates kind of mess later on.

Arvistro, if you insist in the theory that Baltic Finnic languages have arisen with textile ceramics 1000 bce, N1c-VL29 in Finland is Corded Ware and Indo-European, because N1c-VL29 is oldest around the Baltic Sea in the Corded Ware area, and only Z1936 is Uralic as it looks like having arisen in the forest area between Northern Volga and Karelia.

The paper I referred to before (M.G. Kosmenko, The Culture of Bronze Age Net Ware in Karelia) concludes that “Archaeological research over the past few decades has shown that the Net Ware culture (textile ceramics) in the territories to the north of the Volga was completely overlapped by and mixed with the Uralic Ananyino culture during the Early Iron Age. (…) A comparative analysis of the strata of ancient place names in Karelia suggests the conclusion that the earliest 'Volgic' layer of local names for bodies of water most probably corresponds to the Net Ware culture, while the Lapp (Sami) hydronyms correspond to the Ananyino stratum of the Iron Age and the Baltic-Finnish place names to the early medieval culture of the 10th and 11th centuries in southeastern Karelia (Kosmenko 1993).”

As Finnish is very close to Estonian and Finnic languages (including Estonian and Finnish) are close to Mordvin language (spoken to the southeast of Estonia), and Saami languages are further apart, it is also possible that Finnic languages developed from of the Corded Ware Culture and Saami languages developed from the Iron Age Net Ware culture.

Ancient yDNA and autosomal data would make the picture much clearer.

arvistro
06-03-16, 12:23
N1c-VL29 in Finland is Corded Ware and Indo-European, because N1c-VL29 is oldest around the Baltic Sea in the Corded Ware area, and only Z1936 is Uralic as it looks like having arisen in the forest area between Northern Volga and Karelia.
Our current amateurish understanding is that age of VL29 is only 3,300 years. This is the main argument against Corded Ware expansion for that subclade. It however fits nicely with beginnings of Net Ware:
"During the second half of the second millennium BC the BronzeAge culture of Net Ware formed in an areabounded by the Upper Volga in the south, LakeOnega in the north, the upper reaches of the RiverSukhona in the east and in the west by the area tothe southeast of Lake Ladoga and possibly as far asthe River Volkhov"
(I found Kosmenko's article, quote is from that, thanks for this source of info!).
Whether they adjusted age to fit with Net Ware :) Or they used standard methodology for age calcs and it coincided nicely with Net Ware I don't know. It seems like L550+ in the West part of it. Including the Rurik's homeland in Central Sweden (Fig.1 of Kosmenko article). The only problem I see is why Southern Baltic coasts lack this culture? Samland? If not Samland, at least North Curonia? Did it arrive later?

Goga
06-03-16, 14:01
As Finnish is very close to Estonian and Finnic languages (including Estonian and Finnish) are close to Mordvin language (spoken to the southeast of Estonia), and Saami languages are further apart, it is also possible that Finnic languages developed from of the Corded Ware Culture and Saami languages developed from the Iron Age Net Ware culture.

Ancient yDNA and autosomal data would make the picture much clearer.
How is this possible when it is supposed that Corded Ware were proto-Indo-Germanic speakers. While Finnic folks and their language are not Indo-European at all. Not by race (broad faces, small eyes, different facial structure, thick necks, etc..), not by language, not by culture etc..


Finnish and Saami are family languages of each other. And they are very close to each other. Finnish is much closer to Saami than to any Indo-European language in the world. That means that Finnish and Saami have the same roots. Has nothing to do with Corded Ware.

Kristiina
06-03-16, 15:26
Arvistro, that 3300 for VL29 is not correct.
According to y full, VL29 formed 4100 ybp and TMRCA is 3500 ybp, and it is possible that it arose on the Finnish territory.
N-M2126 formed 7200 ybp with TMRCA of 6100 ybp. N1c found in Smolensk in Serteya context 2500 BC should belong to this branch as the cultural horizon of Zhizhitskaya culture of piledwellings goes back to 4–3 mill. cal. BC.

N-M2126 has two branches: N1c-M2019 formed 6100 ybp with TMRCA of 3300 ybp and this line is found in Estonia, and N1c-L1026 formed 6100 ybp with TMRCA of 4500 ybp.

N1c-L1026 has three sub-branches:
N1c-Z1936 formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybp (Finland, Karelia, Western Siberia)
N1c-F4205 formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 3000 ybp (Central Asia, Northeast Asia)
N1c-CTS10760 formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4100 ybp (Baltic Sea area)

The Corded Ware horizon would also explain why half of Baltic yDNA is N1c and why Finns are autosomally closer to continental Corded Ware than Germans.

According to archaeologists Net Ware/textile ceramic arose in the area to the south of Lake Ladoga, so it matches very well the distribution of N1c-Z1936 from where it could have spread to northwest, northeast and southeast. Karelian Z1936 has a sub-branch, Z1941, that has spread to West Finland and Estonia, and when I look at Figure 1 "Distribution of Net Ware in the Northern Europe", I see that Net Ware extends to Western Finland and Estonia but not to Latvia or to Lithuania.

IMO, we need ancient yDNA in order to resolve this question.

Kristiina
06-03-16, 15:58
I know that it is often argued that Finnish Corded Ware people were proto- Germanic speakers, but IMO there are two VERY big problems:

1. Continental Corded Ware is dated 2900 BC —2350 BC and the Swedish-Norwegian Battle Axe culture, or the Boat Axe culture, appeared ca. 2800 BC and the Finnish Corded Ware is dated 3200–2600. The Finnish Corded Ware is 400 years older than the Scandinavian Battle Axe culture.

2. Proto-Germanic arose c. 500 BC and developed into three branches during the first half of the 1st millennium AD which is much too late for the Finnish Corded Ware, as according to Kurgan theory the Proto-Indo-European language itself arose c. between 4000-3000 BC.

By comparison, the Scandinavian R1a1 branch, R-Z284 formed 4500 ybp with TMRCA of 4200 ybp, which means that it formed c. 300 years after the start of the Scandinavian Battle Axe culture.

arvistro
06-03-16, 16:39
The Corded Ware horizon would also explain why half of Baltic yDNA is N1c
No, it can not.
VL29 was not born yet, half of Baltic yDNA is under M2782, which is derived from that one single man born 3,500 years ago (TMRCA) and most likely living in the area marked as 3 "The area in the earlystage." in the Figure 1 "Distribution of Net Ware in the Northern Europe" of Kosmenko's "THE CULTURE OF BRONZE AGE NET WARE IN KARELIA".
He would then spread his seed to the wide area marked as 2 "Area of Net Ware" and his (grand)sons would find their ways into Baltic tribes one way or the other.



According to archaeologists Net Ware/textile ceramic arose in the area to the south of Lake Ladoga, so it matches very well the distribution of N1c-L1026 from where it could have spread to northwest, northeast and southeast.

IMO, we need ancient yDNA in order to resolve this question.
Yes, L1026 (or VL29 right away?), and he had boys VL29, and he had boys L550 and he had boys L1025 and he had boys M2782. Only M2782 were/became Balts, as you see some long time after Corded Ware.
I think some other L1026* might have been part of Baltic tribes earlier, but they did not leave descendants in modern population. Half (40%) of our Y comes from those M2782 guys, most likely coming from clans derived from Net Ware culture.

_____
Alternative is of course, that VL29 age is underestimated and it was formed before Corded Ware.



IMO, we need ancient yDNA in order to resolve this question.
Fingers crossed it comes closer end of the year. There is a Finnish/Estonian project I think they are testing iron age samples from Finland/Estonia/Northern Russia to resolve this question. Hope they go deep into subclades.

Kristiina
06-03-16, 17:58
According to y full Baltic N1c is N-M2783 which formed 2600 ybp, TMRCA 2600 ybp. It has one parallel branch which is found in Finland and Sweden. Its ancestor, N-Z4908 which formed 3500 ybp, TMRCA 3400 ybp, may very well have arisen in Western Finland as its subclades are usually found both in Sweden and Finland. Its parallel branch, N-CTS9976CTS9976, formed 3500 ybp, TMRCA 3500 ybp, is very Finnish with a mostly Western Finnish distribution (Häme).

Therefore, I could very well imagine that N1c-L1026, formed 6100 ybp with TMRCA of 4500 ybp, arrived with Corded Ware to Finland, and developed there into VL29 4100 ybp and then with the improved shipping and Iron Age technology moved to Baltic area at the start of the Iron Age c. 1000 BC and somewhat later on to Sweden.

On the other hand, N1c-L1026 could well have developed into Z1936 in the core area of Net Ware Culture spreading to Finland during the Iron Age while its parallel branches were taken eastward.

I also hope that ancient yDNA will resolve this question. 

Goga
07-03-16, 03:27
I know that it is often argued that Finnish Corded Ware people were proto- Germanic speakers, but IMO there are two VERY big problems:

1. Continental Corded Ware is dated 2900 BC —2350 BC and the Swedish-Norwegian Battle Axe culture, or the Boat Axe culture, appeared ca. 2800 BC and the Finnish Corded Ware is dated 3200–2600. The Finnish Corded Ware is 400 years older than the Scandinavian Battle Axe culture.

2. Proto-Germanic arose c. 500 BC and developed into three branches during the first half of the 1st millennium AD which is much too late for the Finnish Corded Ware, as according to Kurgan theory the Proto-Indo-European language itself arose c. between 4000-3000 BC.

By comparison, the Scandinavian R1a1 branch, R-Z284 formed 4500 ybp with TMRCA of 4200 ybp, which means that it formed c. 300 years after the start of the Scandinavian Battle Axe culture.

You might be very right. Corded Ware was very multiethnic/multicultural. And it was Europoid = Mongoloid + Caucasoid. It's possible that Mongoloid part of Corded Ware came from Scandinavia and NorthEast Europe. So it's possible that FinnoUgric folks heavily influenced Crded Ware. Caucasoid part has to come from Yamnaya and maybe WHG.

Notice that Yamnaya Indo-Europeans were R1b and mostly dark skinned. Also Caucasoid WHG was dark skinned.


Kurgan theory is for a huge part wrong. Why? Because the oldest Kurgans has been found in West Asia and not in the Yamnaya Horizon. True, IE who entered Europe came from Yamnaya. But IE never Indo-Europized Armenia, India etc. There're studies about it.

Yamnaya is 5000 years old, while Maykop is 5500-6000 years old. Corded Ware is younger than Yamnaya and definitely younger than Maykop.


In turn, I think that Europoid (Mongoloid+Caucasoid) Indo-Europeans from Croded Ware influenced the Baltics and Finnish lands a little bit more than the influenced Saami. That's why Saami are more pure than Finnish en Baltic folks. Saami lived much more isolated.

So there was a mutual influence between Finno-Ugric folks and Corded Ware folks.

Kristiina
07-03-16, 09:01
Goga, I would prefer neutral terms 'northeast Eurasian' / 'southeast Eurasian', or, if you want to insist, 'Siberian' / 'Mongoloid', because Siberian is formed from ANE + ENA while Mongoloid is only ENA. However, there are two types of Siberian: depending on the model, Arctic is up to 70% ANE (such as Eskimos) while Nganasan type Siberian carries much less ANE.

If we get a c. 10 000 years old genome from the Northern Pacific Coast, we will probably obtain a component that will be useful in determining modern Siberian ancestry.

You are not correct in connecting Uralic languages with Mongoloids. Uralic groups have mixed with Siberians who were a mixture of ANE and ENA. Moreover, the direction is probably not what you think, see picture below:

7638

The graph shows that Uralic speaking Mansis who are 87% yDNA N are on the Western Eurasian side of the East West divide while yDNA Q carrying Selkups and Kets are on the Eastern Eurasian side. The graph also shows that Mansis have received important geneflow from Kets.
Moreover, Nganasans who are on the same side as Kets and Selkups carry N1b-VL67 (Asia) which they share with Turkic and Tungusic groups (including Tuvinians, Bashkirs, Tatars, Mongols, Yakuts, Evens) but not with Finns or Volga Uralic groups.

Source: ‘Genomic study of the Ket: a Paleo-Eskimo-related ethnic group with significant ancient North Eurasian ancestry’

Ukko
08-03-16, 23:23
The Language Contact Situation in Prehistoric Northeastern Europe
https://www.academia.edu/20252178/The_Language_Contact_Situation_in_Prehistoric_Nort heastern_Europe

Kristiina
09-03-16, 22:20
A good article! However, IMO, we need ancient yDNA and autosomal data from relevant areas.

I agree that the Northern Volga forest area is the best candidate for the origin of Uralic languages. Linguistic, genetic and archaeological evidence all support that idea.

By contrast, I am against Altaian/South Siberian homeland for Uralic languages. It looks like IE-speaking groups as well as Uralic speaking groups went there and it was a kind of ‘Wild West’ of the late Bronze Age / Iron Age. Maybe there were important resources to be acquired and groups were fighting over trade routes and trading centres but I am fairly sure that Uralic and IE languages were new comers in the area; and I am so revolutionary that I think that even proto-Turkic was spoken west of Altai in Kazakhstan and they also went east to obtain the control of the area and Silk Road trade.

IMO, Yeniseian languages are a good candidate for a language family spoken in South Siberia before the Bronze Age. In support of this idea, I insist in the findings of ‘Genomic study of the Ket’. According to it, Kets are significantly closer to Karasuk (Z > 2.9) as compared to most populations in the dataset; and best hits for Kets were (r > 0.95): Altaians, Koryaks, and Iron Age Russia. f3 statistics for Iron Age Altai and Karasuk correlated best between each other and with those of Kets (r > 0.8).

Karasuk yDNA was Q1a1 and R1a1; Iron Age Russia yDNA was 2xQ1a1, 2xJ2a2 and R1a1. There are also other studies on ancient yDNA in Altai and they are full of yDNA Q. N1c is rare and late. Of course, Chinese Neolithic is full of N but according to y full, the Chinese branch formed 18300 ybp with a TMRCA of 16300 ybp, and N1c-L708 separated from Shors/Chinese N1c(xL708) 12000 ybp, which is pretty long time ago!

Ukko
19-03-16, 01:46
Kristiina, you asked in Eurogenes comments "By the way, do you know the place in Russia where yfull YF04468 comes from?".

http://www.yfull.com/tree/N-CTS10760*/


It comes from the Oka region, moved there from near Ural, ancestry is Uralic.

Kristiina
19-03-16, 16:44
Thanks Ukko! So his ancestor may have come to Oka region from the west within the Uralic speaking contact area.

Of course, I do not know where N-VL29 arose, and nobody knows it, but, in any case, N-VL29 looks like having been on the eastern side of the Baltic Sea at least since 2100 BC.

Tomenable
09-04-16, 18:03
Typically Finno-Ugric N1c are all branches which are either L1026* or descended from L1026; while typically Baltic N1c is only M2783 (young and descended from typically Ugro-Finnic L1026) and Rurikid N1c is Y4338, which is also young, and also descended from L1026.

So even if Rurik was a Germanic-speaker, then it appears that he had originated from Finno-Ugrians.

Baltic M2783 also appears to be originally from Ugro-Finns.

Check this tree of N1c1a1 (subclade - formation time / TMRCA according to age estimates by YFull):

https://s14.postimg.org/li0admzzl/N1c1a1.png

BTW:

In FTDNA Projects "N1c1 Hg" and "Rurikid Dynasty", most of men with Y4338 are from Russia and Finland rather than Sweden.

====================

Ultimately haplogroup N1c came to Europe from Eastern Siberia and its ancestral haplogroup N originated in South-East Asia:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Bing_Su/publication/248384791/figure/fig4/AS:[email protected]/The-shaded-areas-represent-the-haplogroup-N-distributions.png

Kristiina
12-04-16, 18:43
Sorry, Eastern Siberia is not correct. You should study yfull. The age of YDNA N there is less than 4000 years (N-F4205 TMRCA 3000 ybp), i.e. it arrived c. 1500 bC from Western Siberia with metal working. The oldest N confirmed so far is from Neolithic North China c. 5000 BC and in the future it may very well be detected in Central Asia as well. You surely know as well as I do that Yakut N1c is a recent founder effect from the Middle Ages.

ThirdTerm
13-04-16, 01:24
The Y4338 subclade is named "Para-Rurik" (Russian: парарюрикидов), which was originally formed 2,900 years ago in Finland. The Rurik clan belonged to N-Y10931 (1,750 ybp) and its date of origin largely coincides with the emergence of the Varangians in Western Russia and its descendant subclades such as N-VL11 and N-VL12 (900 ybp) are only found in Russia. The Varangians had been roaming around the areas north of the Black Sea, engaging in piracy and mercenary activities, long before Rurik's supposed arrival to the Slavic hearland. The Slavs and the Varangian Rus' admixed for many centuries and the Varangians may have gone native in region by the time when the Rurik dynasty was established.

http://s18.postimg.org/6mo4end09/imageedit_2838_9432085882.png

Kristiina
13-04-16, 10:33
Tomenable, the figure you posted is as good as this:

7681

Both are based on modern frequencies with the logic of highest frequency equals oldest age and do not take into account the TMRCA of different subclades and the available ancient yDNA evidence.

MOESAN
14-04-16, 15:24
You might be very right. Corded Ware was very multiethnic/multicultural. And it was Europoid = Mongoloid + Caucasoid. It's possible that Mongoloid part of Corded Ware came from Scandinavia and NorthEast Europe. So it's possible that FinnoUgric folks heavily influenced Crded Ware. Caucasoid part has to come from Yamnaya and maybe WHG.

Notice that Yamnaya Indo-Europeans were R1b and mostly dark skinned. Also Caucasoid WHG was dark skinned.



In turn, I think that Europoid (Mongoloid+Caucasoid) Indo-Europeans from Croded Ware influenced the Baltics and Finnish lands a little bit more than the influenced Saami. That's why Saami are more pure than Finnish en Baltic folks. Saami lived much more isolated.

So there was a mutual influence between Finno-Ugric folks and Corded Ware folks.

Goga, where did you pick Corded Ware people were a mix of 'caucasoids' and 'mongoloids' ?!? And in what proportion? Are you not confusing Corded with other associated cultures as Battle Axe? These last ones could have taken some 'mongoloid' (slight) imput when reaching the East-Baltic/Finland surroundings regions. But the CWC phenomenon in its origins is not the result a melting pot of 'europoid' and 'east-asian' types, for me, at least at the level of my present knowledge.

Goga
14-04-16, 15:44
If we assume that this is the Corded Ware Horizon do you agree?


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/Map_Corded_Ware_culture-en.svg/800px-Map_Corded_Ware_culture-en.svg.png (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Map_Corded_Ware_culture-en.svg)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture


All those folks within that Horizion belonged to the same confederation of cultures. The so called 'Mongoloid' Y-DNA haplogroups like N1c1 and Q are NATIVE to the eastern parts of the Corded Ware. I do assume that all folks within the Horizon mixed with each other, because of the common environment. So tribes in the West mixed heavily with the tribes in the East and therefore we got a melting pot between different haplogroups and different races. Also, even the auDNA of the western Corded Ware folks are somehow shifted to the east.

MOESAN
16-04-16, 01:06
If we assume that this is the Corded Ware Horizon do you agree?


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/Map_Corded_Ware_culture-en.svg/800px-Map_Corded_Ware_culture-en.svg.png (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Map_Corded_Ware_culture-en.svg)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture


All those folks within that Horizion belonged to the same confederation of cultures. The so called 'Mongoloid' Y-DNA haplogroups like N1c1 and Q are NATIVE to the eastern parts of the Corded Ware. I do assume that all folks within the Horizon mixed with each other, because of the common environment. So tribes in the West mixed heavily with the tribes in the East and therefore we got a melting pot between different haplogroups and different races. Also, even the auDNA of the western Corded Ware folks are somehow shifted to the east.

Goga, you jump very quickly to definitive conclusions, based upon facts, but facts analysed through your personal spectacles; We saw in Central Europe tribes living side by side and they did not mix one to another too quickly, spite the today credo of someones; it occurred more or less fast at least not always in the same way (by the way, concerning the males-females desequilibrated matings, I think we cannot affirm the most of the populations had the same variability as the elites, these last ones marrying for political-economial reasons, everywhere).
the Corded auDNA we have (maybe not representative of all the culture?) shows only a little imput of East Asia, and for the most of North-Siberia-Amerindian sort, so not typically 'mongoloid'. The Corded skeletons considered by scientists (not only C.Coon) showed physical types at the opposite of the East-Asians types.
So, looking at maps and concluding, according to the territories covered and the populations living there TODAY, that the tribes living there IN PAST were of this or that type or a mix of them, IS A MAGIC OPERATION.
I beg the pardon of all here because I had no time to discuss the very thread here, and Y-N1c and Finnic-I-E question. It spite me to insist on physical aspect, but I cannot do with vague and hazardous affirmations. No offense.

Ukko
19-04-16, 07:40
The Y4338 subclade is named "Para-Rurik" (Russian: парарюрикидов), which was originally formed 2,900 years ago in Finland. The Rurik clan belonged to N-Y10931 (1,750 ybp) and its date of origin largely coincides with the emergence of the Varangians in Western Russia and its descendant subclades such as N-VL11 and N-VL12 (900 ybp) are only found in Russia. The Varangians had been roaming around the areas north of the Black Sea, engaging in piracy and mercenary activities, long before Rurik's supposed arrival to the Slavic hearland. The Slavs and the Varangian Rus' admixed for many centuries and the Varangians may have gone native in region by the time when the Rurik dynasty was established.

http://s18.postimg.org/6mo4end09/imageedit_2838_9432085882.png


Funny how these Varangian lines all lead to Baltic Finns.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-VL29/


http://www.kolumbus.fi/geodun/YDNA/SNP-N-TREE-FIN.jpg

Ukko
19-04-16, 07:41
This is actually fun, people choking and choking as the noose gets tighter.

Ukko
19-04-16, 07:50
The most influential proponent claiming that the founders of the early stage of Russia, including their leader Rurik, were ethnically Finnish has been the Empress Catherine the Great of Russia, a.k.a. Catherine II.

In her writings on the history of Russia, Catherine II placed the home of origin of the Varangians in the region between Ingria and Finland, i.e. in Karelia. Both Catherine and her husband Emperor Peter III of Russia were Rurikid descendants.

Catherine even wrote a play about Rurik, in which the dying Gostomysl instructs his followers to elect his daughters son, grandson of a Finnish prince, as their ruler.

It was also during the reign of Catherine II, that three editions were published of a short review of Russian history by Timofei Malgin, another advocate of the Finnish theory, and a work of similar persuasions by Ivan P. Yelagin, literary adviser to the Empress and the founder of Russian freemasonry.

Other proponents of the "Finnish theory" have included – but are not limited to – the following:

• Rurikid descendant and the author of the first full-scale Russian history Vasily Tatishchev • Rurikid prince and a historian Mikhail Shcherbatov • historian Viktor Paranin (1990) • historian Johan Adolf Lindström (has presented also a Goth-Varangian theory) • historian A. H. Snellman (Artturi Heikki Virkkunen) • historian Yrjö Koskinen • historian Jalmari Jaakkola • historian Matti Klinge • archaeologist Pirkko-Liisa Lehtosalo-Hilander • Professor of Finnish and Scandinavian archaeology Carl Fredrik Meinander.

Vasily Tatishchev was a prominent Russian statesman and ethnographer, best remembered as the author of the first full-scale Russian history. He is sometimes referred to as the "father of Russian history".

According to Vasily Tatishchev, the Rus' originated from the area of Finland and the Rus' were Finns. He based his knowledge primarily on the Ioachim Chronicle. The original chronicle was lost, and its contents are known through Tatishchev's "History of Russia" (История Российская).

Further support for Tatishchev`s Finnish theory was provided by the "Chronicon Finlandiae", written by an unknown author, published by Christian Nettelbladt in 1728.