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View Full Version : Haplogroup J2a in the Fertile Crescent and Europe



adamo
23-04-13, 04:19
I have been conducting extensive research on haplogroup J2a and have found it to be linked to turkey, Lebanon, Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, north-eastern Iran parts of northern Syria and Iraq, but most interestingly on the island of Crete , Cyprus, Rhodes and across south-central Italy. It is found much less frequently on mainland Greece. I have linked this haplogroup to mesopotamians, but most interestingly, I have linked the later spread of J2a to the Hittites of Hattusa. The reason that j2a (M410) primilary bypassed mainland Greece is due to the conflicts between ancient Greeks (Ahyiawa) or Achaeans, and the Hittites. In ancient sources at around the time of Troy ( Wilusa or also Taruisa) there where several superpowers of which the kings of these empires called themselves brothers due to the power and military achievements of their empires, they had much respect for one another even though theyoften came inoto conflict with each other. These where Assyria, Babylon (which at this time was heavily on the decline), Egypt, the Hittite kingdom and Ahyiawa, the Achaean Greeks of ancient Mycenae. At this time, the Achaeans where already setting up colonies such as Miletus (Milatos to the Greeks, milawanda to the Hittites) and Halicarnassus on the shores of western Anatolia, from where they looked eastwards towards the Hittite lands. These Mycenaean Greeks even convinced the lycians , who owned this region of south-western Anatolia where these Greeks set up, to abandon their Hittite roots and side with the Mycenaeans. The arzawa, dardanians of Wilusa (Troy) on the other hand, stood faithfully with the Hittites, as they had for over 500 or so years. Their unwillingness to change over to the greek side caused the Trojan war, and not the famous love affair of Ellen and Paris, or Alexandro's of Ilios. Troy was burned to the ground and the Greeks killed the Trojan/Hittite royal lineage in that area. This set about the fleeing of the Trojans of which legends such as Aeneas arrival in Italy are mentioned. They did not flee to Greece as these where they men that ousted them in the first place, they left Anatolia and set up in Italy. Some Lydians turning into etrurians follows the same lines as the latter story. Long after, some Greeks would set up in southern Italy (Magna Grecia), many of which had an ancient middle eastern substratum such as Ionians and even some of the Achaeans...although the Cretans, Cypriots and north-central Italians of Europe in particular, can more closely link themselves to such empires as the Hittites and their allied puppet-states such as dardanians of Troy, arzawa, lycians and Lydians, who all spoke the Luwian tongue and where once collectively referred to as the Leleges of Anatolia. Feel free to discuss this subject and emit other plausible and interesting theories and/or pieces of information. To me, the ever expanding Mycenaeans viewed the peninsular west-ANATOLIANS ( ancient Lydians, the later sea-faring tyrrhenians) as a threat and as competitors, even if some of these first Ionians and Achaeans where earlier pelasgian barbarians themselves, they where fully hellenized and brought into the greek sphere of cultural influence along with other Hellenic people's, creating the Hellenic people and being implemented into them upon anciently arriving in certain parts of Greece. In fact, to me, the Achaeans where pre-Dorian inhabitants of both Crete and mainland Greece that where pushed out/repositioned by the incoming Dorians, these Achaeans had originally arrived long ago from a fraction of south-western Anatolia to Greece and eventually, with the addition of other pelasgians (aeolians, Ionians) and Hellenic continental european people's , would eventually compete with their distant middle eastern relatives. Even though the Hittites spoke an indo-European language ( as Greeks, germanics and indo-Iranians also did, see the origins of India's Sanskrit language etc.) to me they have "forever" inhabited the lands of turkey/northern Syria as a sort of extension of Hatti people's and other ancient groups....they where bearers of J2 as where their ancient ancestors that first set up shop in the north/central Fertile Crescent areas of the Middle East, to me they where always set up there for many thousands of years, linked to ancient sites such as Chatal Hoyuk and Ugarit, or Arslan Tepe and Tarhuntassa or Sultan Tepe and Tarshish (Tarsus) etc. for example, lets take the ancient southern Anatolian city of Tarsus. It's original name was tarsus, derived from tarsa, which was its original name in the Hittite tongue. This was also derived from a Hittite god, Tarku. The city was even known for a time as Tarsisi....,this sounds oddly familiar to the ancient italian town of Asissi, in central Italy, not too far from where our Etruscans dominated. Coincidence, or is there possibly some ancient migratory link between the two? Another city, on the ancient eastern coast of Iberia, tartessos. This area was one of those rare Iberian areas that was not Celtic, and it is not well known who founded certain small colonies on the eastern Spanish coast. Was it Greeks? Probably not, probably was J2 sea-faring Phoenicians, that very very mildly, but visibly did, to a small degree, affect the genetic composition of Spain, adding in about 10% or so j2 on a national level with highs of 15-18% in small regions of Andalusia province....did maybe the name Iberia itself derive from these sea people's? Doubt it, but it may be a relatively valid example.....there was Tarquinia, in central Italy on the Tyrrhenian coast, founded as soon as the Etruscans descended from their boats. Hmmmm......Tarquinia, tarsus, Hittite god Tarqu/Tarku.....a link?? Maybe...tis just speculation as of now certainly. Iapetus, also known biblically as Japheth, had a daughter, Anchiale, who founded a city in her name not too far from tarsus. Japheth is linked to the Middle East , he is in the same family , literally, as Togarmah and Meschech , fathers of middle eastern Armenians and Georgians ( Meschech is today's meshketi also known as moschi I believe). Japheth/Iapetus although is also to me linked to Iapyx of Crete. Iapyx was either son of issus or Lycaon. If he was linked to Lycaon, this would automatically link him to lycaonia ( region of southern Anatolia). Lycaon IS though, 100% linked to both , as the father of daunus and peucetis, who left lycaonia ( to the east of Lukka lands a.k.a Lycia) to colonize apulia in southern Italy. So then probably Iapyx was brother of daunus and peucetis, fathers of the IAPYGIANS apulian civilization, so oftenly confused with Illyrian people's based on their name ( note that northern apulia near foggia has a total of 44% haplogroup J, the overwhelming majority of it being...you guessed, J2.). This would also link a different migration of Cretans, that originally came from Anatolia to being with, to certain southern Italians (EXCLUDING the later arrivals of Magna Grecia Greeks to Calabria etc, much later.) any links between the Middle East and Italy, Crete, parts of Greece? Well, other than all the historical sources, the 20% J2 on a national level (40% Crete), (30% Sicily) and the High j2 pockets in apulia ,Calabria, parts of campania, abbruzzo, Marche, and our well documented Etruscans, what do you think? Lets take the city of Pisa, for example. It is well-documented that pelasgians arrived there. There is also a Pisa on southern Greece I believe. So there you have it! The pisaens where ancient Greeks! False. Pisa is linked to Pelops he founded it and he was subsequently linked to anatolia, a Phrygian or Lydian by birth ( sometimes used as the same term/people's) he traveled to southern Greece and afterwards to Italy where he founded Pisa, etc. the Trojan/Anatolian race reigned supreme in certain regions of Italy, whereas danios and his egyptoid race ( danios was twin brother to Aegyptus) had much influence on mainland Greece and may have represented a very large fraction of the ancient Mycenaeans that so often challenged and fought with their Anatolian neighbours to the east.

ebAmerican
23-04-13, 19:28
Man you got to put some paragraphs in your post. I want to read it, but it hurts my eyes!

Yetos
23-04-13, 22:44
I find it interesting, no matter I did not undrstand it all.

adamo
24-04-13, 04:18
I'm trying to solidify a link between ancient middle eastern people's such as Hittites of Anatolia, Lydians phrygians, etc. middle eastern seafarers such as pelasgians, tyrrhenians and certain minimal European populations found on Cyprus, Crete, Sicily, south-central Italy, parts of Greece or Albania etc.

oriental
24-04-13, 04:25
Adamo, I hope you don't mind my reposting your piece in paragraphs. I didn't read it but split it by inspection which I will read when I get home.

I have been conducting extensive research on haplogroup J2a and have found it to be linked to turkey, Lebanon, Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, north-eastern Iran parts of northern Syria and Iraq, but most interestingly on the island of Crete , Cyprus, Rhodes and across south-central Italy. It is found much less frequently on mainland Greece. I have linked this haplogroup to mesopotamians, but most interestingly, I have linked the later spread of J2a to the Hittites of Hattusa.
The reason that j2a (M410) primilary bypassed mainland Greece is due to the conflicts between ancient Greeks (Ahyiawa) or Achaeans, and the Hittites. In ancient sources at around the time of Troy ( Wilusa or also Taruisa) there where several superpowers of which the kings of these empires called themselves brothers due to the power and military achievements of their empires, they had much respect for one another even though theyoften came inoto conflict with each other.
These where Assyria, Babylon (which at this time was heavily on the decline), Egypt, the Hittite kingdom and Ahyiawa, the Achaean Greeks of ancient Mycenae. At this time, the Achaeans where already setting up colonies such as Miletus (Milatos to the Greeks, milawanda to the Hittites) and Halicarnassus on the shores of western Anatolia, from where they looked eastwards towards the Hittite lands. These Mycenaean Greeks even convinced the lycians , who owned this region of south-western Anatolia where these Greeks set up, to abandon their Hittite roots and side with the Mycenaeans.
The arzawa, dardanians of Wilusa (Troy) on the other hand, stood faithfully with the Hittites, as they had for over 500 or so years. Their unwillingness to change over to the greek side caused the Trojan war, and not the famous love affair of Ellen and Paris, or Alexandro's of Ilios. Troy was burned to the ground and the Greeks killed the Trojan/Hittite royal lineage in that area. This set about the fleeing of the Trojans of which legends such as Aeneas arrival in Italy are mentioned. They did not flee to Greece as these where they men that ousted them in the first place, they left Anatolia and set up in Italy. Some Lydians turning into etrurians follows the same lines as the latter story.
Long after, some Greeks would set up in southern Italy (Magna Grecia), many of which had an ancient middle eastern substratum such as Ionians and even some of the Achaeans...although the Cretans, Cypriots and north-central Italians of Europe in particular, can more closely link themselves to such empires as the Hittites and their allied puppet-states such as dardanians of Troy, arzawa, lycians and Lydians, who all spoke the Luwian tongue and where once collectively referred to as the Leleges of Anatolia.
Feel free to discuss this subject and emit other plausible and interesting theories and/or pieces of information. To me, the ever expanding Mycenaeans viewed the peninsular west-ANATOLIANS ( ancient Lydians, the later sea-faring tyrrhenians) as a threat and as competitors, even if some of these first Ionians and Achaeans where earlier pelasgian barbarians themselves, they where fully hellenized and brought into the greek sphere of cultural influence along with other Hellenic people's, creating the Hellenic people and being implemented into them upon anciently arriving in certain parts of Greece.
In fact, to me, the Achaeans where pre-Dorian inhabitants of both Crete and mainland Greece that where pushed out/repositioned by the incoming Dorians, these Achaeans had originally arrived long ago from a fraction of south-western Anatolia to Greece and eventually, with the addition of other

Thanks for your understanding.

adamo
24-04-13, 05:09
No problem! You can split my text up into paragraphs...sorry about not having done so myself lol, what can I say 19 year olds don't think everything through now do they lolll : )

Yetos
24-04-13, 05:50
I'm trying to solidify a link between ancient middle eastern people's such as Hittites of Anatolia, Lydians phrygians, etc. middle eastern seafarers such as pelasgians, tyrrhenians and certain minimal European populations found on Cyprus, Crete, Sicily, south-central Italy, parts of Greece or Albania etc.

the key is the time,
not the way,
cause if a J2 is older in balkans than your theory then the way is wrong,
by what i see you suggest that J2a enter Balkans after Hettites, near Troyan war, estimation 1100-1300 BC?

Pelasgians/Etruscans/Troyans were not IE speakers.
especially in triyan war, Homer mention Hettits as allies of troyans, not relatives,

So yes J2a enter Europe through Anatolia, where it entered from south Caucasos, but not so late i believe,

adamo
24-04-13, 06:13
The Trojans ad Hittites where literally of the same substratum, the same thing, as where the Lydians, lycians, lycaonians to the Hittites, they where all J2a Anatolian people's. take the Etruscans, for example, they entered Italy only 800 years B.C., about 3000 or so years ago, fresh middle eastern blood in Italy. And so what if they didn't speak indo-European, they must have changed language over time, the decline of the Hittite empire, something must explain that detail. Take basques for example, they're 90% R1b paternally, one of the worlds highest frequencies, yet they don't speak an indo-European tongue as the rest of their Celtic R1b neighbours do...does that change the fact that they are R1b folk? No , but there must be some lost explanation for why. It's almost like the basque went "solo" linguistically but they fit in more than perfectly with the rest of their Iberian entourage...maybe once all Iberian celts spoke a basque dialect, but this was overwhelmed by the Latin tongue influence of the Roman Empire. Why did the Goeidelic languages (Gaelic) gone pretty much extinct in the British isles? Germanic linguistic influence is why, so today, instead of speaking their homeland British isles tongue, the Irish and Scottish speak a Germanic tongue, English.

zanipolo
24-04-13, 09:13
The Trojans ad Hittites where literally of the same substratum, the same thing, as where the Lydians, lycians, lycaonians to the Hittites, they where all J2a Anatolian people's. take the Etruscans, for example, they entered Italy only 800 years B.C., about 3000 or so years ago, fresh middle eastern blood in Italy. And so what if they didn't speak indo-European, they must have changed language over time, the decline of the Hittite empire, something must explain that detail. Take basques for example, they're 90% R1b paternally, one of the worlds highest frequencies, yet they don't speak an indo-European tongue as the rest of their Celtic R1b neighbours do...does that change the fact that they are R1b folk? No , but there must be some lost explanation for why. It's almost like the basque went "solo" linguistically but they fit in more than perfectly with the rest of their Iberian entourage...maybe once all Iberian celts spoke a basque dialect, but this was overwhelmed by the Latin tongue influence of the Roman Empire. Why did the Goeidelic languages (Gaelic) gone pretty much extinct in the British isles? Germanic linguistic influence is why, so today, instead of speaking their homeland British isles tongue, the Irish and Scottish speak a Germanic tongue, English.

I understand all that you have written in this thread, but there are some things you need to consider
- The phoenicians where already in iberia before the Hittite collapse

- The etruscans although entering the adriatic arrived in the south Picene ( not north picene) area and crossed overland ,
these Picene where different people as the north picene where illyrian Lubarni people. The Etruscans arrived late in the terms that the Myceneaens ( from Argo ) where already in Istria ( near north -east Italy )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castellieri_culture



The italian archives state the following, after the bronze -age collapse of the myceneans ( after fall of troy ), the Argo myceneans travelled to the already known haven of Istria with the captive trojan women, introducing a hemp trade.
The Veneti or part of these veneti where mycenean...........further investigation state , they ( veneti) worshipped the Goddess Reitia ( most pagan cultures have women as the main diety ) and also Diomedes.
Diomedes meant "from godly medes" ( royal Medes )....one of the original areas or creation of early bronze-age veneti.
The venetian republic was said to have known this and built their capital representing the ancient greek -anatolian sphere in Nauplion, ...near ancient ....you guessed it....Argo


You can find articles in Italian on the Castellieri and well as the link of Diomedes and Veneto

zanipolo
24-04-13, 09:24
the key is the time,
not the way,
cause if a J2 is older in balkans than your theory then the way is wrong,
by what i see you suggest that J2a enter Balkans after Hettites, near Troyan war, estimation 1100-1300 BC?

Pelasgians/Etruscans/Troyans were not IE speakers.
especially in triyan war, Homer mention Hettits as allies of troyans, not relatives,

So yes J2a enter Europe through Anatolia, where it entered from south Caucasos, but not so late i believe,


1187BC is the estimation of the sack of Troy..........around the time of the great bronze -age migration period.

adamo
24-04-13, 10:13
So then why is it called the Tyrrhenian ocean if it did not host the arrival of the Etruscans by that side? Unless the tyrrhenians later expanded to the west coast of Tuscany dominating trade and what not on their "Tyrrhenian sea" but I doubt that, I feel they arrived directly to Tuscany via the Tyrrhenian Sea. And what of the Etruscan port Pyrgi on the Latium coast? Where the pyrgi tablets where found with both Phoenician and Etruscan texts on them? Does this not link the Etruscans to a middle eastern people's such as the Phoenicians of the levant? The foundation of pyrgi was ascribed to Etruscans and pelasgians, pyrgi, does this not imply that the Phrygians nearby the Lydians where also of this middle-eastern substratum of people's, and not of this false R1b Germanic theories I hear of? R1b in Anatolia is linked only to the Gaul "Galatians" that travelled from southern France to the southern Balkans and subsequently to Anatolia, what's your opinion on this?

zanipolo
24-04-13, 10:20
So then why is it called the Tyrrhenian ocean if it did not host the arrival of the Etruscans by that side? Unless the tyrrhenians later expanded to the west coast of Tuscany dominating trade and what not on their "Tyrrhenian sea" but I doubt that, I feel they arrived directly to Tuscany via the Tyrrhenian Sea. And what of the Etruscan port Pyrgi on the Latium coast? Where the pyrgi tablets where found with both Phoenician and Etruscan texts on them? Does this not link the Etruscans to a middle eastern people's such as the Phoenicians of the levant? The foundation of pyrgi was ascribed to Etruscans and pelasgians, pyrgi, does this not imply that the Phrygians nearby the Lydians where also of this middle-eastern substratum of people's, and not of this false R1b Germanic theories I hear of? R1b in Anatolia is linked only to the Gaul "Galatians" that travelled from southern France to the southern Balkans and subsequently to Anatolia, what's your opinion on this?

I am not denying the etruscans where not Anatolian, I am saying they crossed middle Italy.
their trade was olives and wine in which they completed against the Greeks in corsica and south france.
There is no knowledge of the etruscans entering western Italian through the straits of Messina...........unless the story of Aeneas, via carthage to etruscan lands area is correct. etruscan area originally went as far south as north campania.

adamo
24-04-13, 10:53
Yes...I think I'm going to start a new thread on Phrygians soon trying to link them to Anatolian middle easterners also.