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adamo
28-04-13, 17:48
Many scholars see in Urartean art ( art from ancient Urartu) a striking similarity to Etruscan art and culture. It has also been suggested that Etruscan may have been an early Armenian dialect, or even, a proto-Armenian tongue, the archaic father of Armenian. It is interesting how similar Etruscan linguistic is similar to certain Armenian and even oddly enough, Albanian words. The " Armenian" race is said to have once spread from Armenia to Italy, where they where known as Phrygians, pelasgians ( and thus possibly sea people's by extension), Etruscans and thracians. There is an evident similarity between Etruscan statues and Assyrian ones, and Etruscan gods, if linked to the Lydian ones, which is easy to Do, start showing a surprising culture that worked its way anciently from the Euphrates and Tigris rivers to the Arno and Tiber of central Italy. Not to mention burial sites found in southern Etruria that are similar to ancient ones found in Armenia in particular.

kamani
29-04-13, 01:43
I need to research more the Armenian connection, but speaking about Etruscan-Albanian(Pelasgian) connection, there is deffinitely something there. Autosomally, a lot of Albanians score close to Tuscany and they have 10-20% Caucasus component. Linguistically there have been a couple of books matching words from Etruscan to Albanian. And then there is the Lemnos Steele with Etruscan writing in Lemnos, speaking for an Etruscan-Pelasgian connection.

Goga
29-04-13, 02:21
Urartu were not Indo-European, but Hurrian people. Modern Armenians speak an Indo-European language.

Goga
29-04-13, 02:33
Also Y-DNA haplogroup J2 is not Armenian, but a West-Asian / (Paleo-)Caucasian marker. Hg. J2 created the greatest civilizations on earth, Caucasian Civilizations (Shulaveri-Shomu, Kura–Araxes, Trialeti, Maykop), Mesopotamian (Hassuna and Halaf) , Iranic (Aryan), Hellenic, Roman etc. Together with hg. R1b it's the most talented, gifted and inventive haplogroup. R1b is actually more adventurous of the two, while J2 is more creative one.

adamo
29-04-13, 05:09
I never said it was "Armenian" it's northern Mesopotamian, Fertile Crescent gene. And thanks for the rest; we all know that. Hurrians may very well have been an ancestral non-indo European speaking ancestor of Hittites and the eventual Armenians by the way, as languages change over thousands of years due to many influences and are not necesserily indicative of genes. And the J2 created all those civilizations yes, but it only influenced in part the Hellenic ad roman civilizations, as overall these places had a nice assortment of other haplogroups as well ( R1b for Romans, E3b, I2a and others for the Greeks), different European and north-African influences. I'm trying to make a link between Armenians and the ancient Etruscans, not J2 as originating in Armenia. Everyone knows J2 originated near southeastern turkey/ north Syria/ northwestern Iraq. But being in the middle eastern sphere, Armenia is a J2 place as well, as many north-middle eastern countries are too.

Goga
29-04-13, 05:36
I believe that J2 is not really from northern Mesopotamia, but a little bit up to north from the mountains. And as far as I know Etruscans were the founding fathers of the Romans (read not modern Italians)

Goga
29-04-13, 06:05
Actually, what I'm trying to say is that the ancient Romans were MUCH more Near Eastern/West Asian than modern population of a country called Italy.

adamo
29-04-13, 06:24
The original Romans "latins" where men of R1b U-152, the fathers of Romans where not Etruscans, that where a later Semitic-style middle eastern foreign element to Italy. They impeded on a R1b culture that had already been long set up in Italy. They where very European, as where their west European neighbours until they received migration and assimilated middle eastern people's into their ranks.

Goga
29-04-13, 06:42
No, Semitic-style middle eastern lived in Italy before R1b and J2a arrived! Also, Romulus and Remus, central characters of Rome's foundation myth were Etruscans.

Goga
29-04-13, 06:50
Hg. E , J1 and maybe T are Semitic-style Middle Eastern/Southwest Asian haplogroups. J2 is not Semitic.

adamo
29-04-13, 07:07
Turks and Azeris and Lebanese are Semitic they all have J2 and J1 also, but Semites such as Jews are predominantly j2, there's also an intrusive invading E element in Semites that is correct, it was absorbed by them. There was a proto-European substratum across Italy long before the north-mesopotamians of the Neolithic and Greeks of j2 arrived.

adamo
29-04-13, 07:08
Myths are just that; myths. The first Italians where a European composition , then came Neolithic J2.

Yetos
29-04-13, 07:44
Turks and Azeris and Lebanese are Semitic they all have J2 and J1 also, but Semites such as Jews are predominantly j2, there's also an intrusive invading E element in Semites that is correct, it was absorbed by them. There was a proto-European substratum across Italy long before the north-mesopotamians of the Neolithic and Greeks of j2 arrived.

Turks and Azeris ae nor Semitic,

there is no Semitic J2
only J1 is consider Semitic, but still J1 is consider 'made in' Caucasus, that went far south and become Semitic

adamo
29-04-13, 07:52
Well there's J1 in turks and Azeris either way so their Semitic anyways, fine J2 is Mesopotamian whatever

Goga
29-04-13, 15:16
Original Turks areTurco-Mongoloid from the beautiful Altai mountains, Central Asia. Nothing to do with the Semites.

Arabs are Semitic and the Arabian homeland is the Arabian Peninsula. If you look at that area There is very very little J2. People in the Levant are Semitic and the major haplogroups they carry are E and J1.

adamo
29-04-13, 15:21
Well I'm referring to ANATOLIANS you know? Modern-day Turks? They have Mesopotamian J2. Not to mention your little "Levantine Lebanese" with their 30-35% J2 AND Jews have j2 also.

Goga
29-04-13, 15:23
Myths are just that; myths. The first Italians where a European composition , then came Neolithic J2.I was talking about the birth, foundation of the Romans. And it starts with the Etruscans. Etruscans were 'Anatolian' and not Armenian. I believe that Etruscans were closer to the ancient Greeks than to Urartu. The epos of the Roman Empire starts with the Etruscans.

adamo
29-04-13, 15:23
Not to mention 15-30% of Syrians ( although j1 is bigger there), but J2 is characteristically Mesopotamian.

adamo
29-04-13, 15:26
The original Romans where latins, that would later spread their tongue across France, Iberia and Romania. They where R1b men, not J2. They where in Italy long before the Neolithic arrival of j2 people to Italy. The foundation of the latins/Romans starts with the Etruscans. No, it starts with the Romans who where a separate people from the invading Etruscans, as we all know, regardless of myth.

Goga
29-04-13, 15:26
Well I'm referring to ANATOLIANS you know? Modern-day Turks? They have Mesopotamian J2. Not to mention your little "Levantine Lebanese" with their 30-35% J2 AND Jews have j2 also.
What the hell are you talking about. Jews have also R1a, R1b, G. Are ALL this haplogroups also Semitic? The fact is that the dominant markers of the Semites are hg. J1 (Arabs in Arabian peninsula) and hg. E (Semites in the Levant).

adamo
29-04-13, 15:29
I didn't say they where predominantly J2, I said those nations have some, and J2 is actually the biggest hg of Turks and Lebanese.

Goga
29-04-13, 15:32
The original Romans where latins, that would later spread their tongue across France, Iberia and Romania. They where R1b men, not J2. They where in Italy long before the Neolithic arrival of j2 people to Italy.
No, original Indo-European modern-day 'Italians' wereLatin. And YES, Latin IS related to R1b. But I’m talking about the Romans andnot Italians. After J2 Etruscans founded theRoman civilization and by expanding they mixed with Latin (Indo-European) R1bfolks and some other native Europeans. Original Romans were more ‘Near Eastern’than modern-day Italians.

adamo
29-04-13, 15:33
The Etruscans allied themselves with the Carthaginians as their interests collided with those of the Greeks.

adamo
29-04-13, 15:36
No. The original expanding Romans where the R1b men themselves; they often collided with italiotes from other provinces that where more middle eastern in origin such as the three fractions of the iapygians civilization for example,they subdued and then allied themselves to the Etruscans, but where no Etruscans themselves.

Goga
29-04-13, 15:38
I didn't say they where predominantly J2, I said those nations have some, and J2 is actually the biggest hg of Turks and Lebanese.
Yes, but races in the Caucasus have MUCH more J2. J2 is NOT from the Levant and original Semites are not from the Caucasus, man. Original J2 IS Paleo-Caucasian, while original Arabs/Semites are from Arabian Peninsula. The second biggenst hg. in Turks is R1b. IS R1b Turkish (Turco-Mongoloid) then??

adamo
29-04-13, 15:38
The Etruscans settled down in Tuscany over the preceding Villanova culture, which where men of undeniably R1b stock ( villanovans)The latins, centred more south around central Latium province, where men of R1b that where surrounded by more Greco-Anatolian contingents of people's, they where the strongest, as would be attested by their eventual conquering of all of italia.

adamo
29-04-13, 15:41
I never claimed J2 originated in the levant, nor would I claim that J1 originated in the Caucasus, as you've misinterpreted once more. The Turks and Lebanese received Mesopotamian migrations that brought J2 to them.

Goga
29-04-13, 15:43
I believe that J2 and r1b mixed in a VERYearly stage of the foundation of the Roman Empire.

According to the stories Romulus and Remuswere the central characters of Rome's foundation and they were Etruscans. We're talking here about the 'origins' of something.

Vallicanus
29-04-13, 15:44
Until we examine ancient Etruscan and Roman remains any talk of haplogroups like R1b or J2 is meaningless and only educated guesswork.

adamo
29-04-13, 15:46
They mixed with Etruscans, but where R1b men to begin with, these "latins". The latins where not Etruscans. At all. They assimilated near eastern italian elements, but at the core they where R1b Celtic types at first, before the Etruscans even arrived to Italy.

Goga
29-04-13, 15:47
I didn't say they where predominantly J2, I said those nations have some, and J2 is actually the biggest hg of Turks and Lebanese.My friend, when Turks form the Altai invaded area from what’s nowadays called Turkey they assimilated many natives of ‘Turkey’. They assimilated many Greeks and many Armenians. J2 in Turks is from Anatolians (Greeks and Armenians). Don't know much about the Lebanese, though...

Goga
29-04-13, 15:48
They mixed with Etruscans, but where R1b men to begin with, these "latins". The latins where not Etruscans. At all.I know. Etruscans were not even Indo-European, at all!

Vallicanus
29-04-13, 15:52
They mixed with Etruscans, but where R1b men to begin with, these "latins". The latins where not Etruscans. At all. They assimilated near eastern italian elements, but at the core they where R1b Celtic types at first, before the Etruscans even arrived to Italy.

You have no proof that Latin Romans were primarily R1b.

adamo
29-04-13, 15:52
The Etruscans where a middle eastern element to Italy. That J2 element you speak of assimilated by Turks from Greeks and Armenians, it came from somewhere originally. The Fertile Crescent. Northern Iraq/southeastern turkey, this is the source of all J2, where the J-M172 originated.

adamo
29-04-13, 15:54
They where heavily R1b u152 that absorbed much J2, as is attested by italian genetic composition today. Their ancestors where Halstatt celts turned la tene and these la tene "Gauls" we can call them once they're la tene, these proto-Gallic people crossed the alps into Italy; a European group.

Goga
29-04-13, 15:58
The Etruscans where a middle eastern element to Italy. That J2 element you speak of assimilated by Turks from Greeks and Armenians, it came from somewhere originally. The Fertile Crescent. Northern Iraq/southeastern turkey, this is the source of all J2, where the J-M172 originated.Even BEFORE Etruscans and R1b Indo-Europeans, some parts of Italy were already populated by some kind of 'middle eastern' people.

adamo
29-04-13, 15:58
These "celts" ( indirectly called I suppose) from the Paleolithic, absorbed incoming J2 Neolithic elements and even later greek migrations/colonization a.

adamo
29-04-13, 15:59
And what hg did these ones have? The main italics/latins where R1b men that later merged with incoming Etruscans.

Vallicanus
29-04-13, 16:04
And what hg did these ones have? The main italics/latins where R1b men that later merged with incoming Etruscans.

How do you know?

You have no DNA evidence to back up your claim.:useless:

adamo
29-04-13, 16:06
Ask anyone with a half-a-brain and you'll have your evidence loll

Goga
29-04-13, 16:07
And what hg did these ones have? The main italics/latins where R1b men that later merged with incoming Etruscans.Which Celts? Yeah, I do agree with you, that true Italians that spoke Latin were mostly R1b folks. Latin is connected to R1b. But, once again, ORIGINIAL Romans were not the same as modern-day Italians. Although there's a continuation between the 2 groups. The foundingfathers of the Roman Empire were Etruscans, but the Etruscans were a minority in Italy. It happens lots of time that minority of 'ELITES' absorbing language of the majority.

adamo
29-04-13, 16:07
By the time of the Romans, R1b was the only thing dominating Italy, and the in-coming J2. Trust me...the Etruscans where no "elites", its the other way around pretty much, the r1b men pioneered the Roman Empire, they where fierce warriors, they incorporated the "Etruscans" and took them along for the ride pretty much is what happened. They fusioned both cultures, with the Latin one being dominant and respected the Etruscans gods and people's, but they themselves where no middle-easterners, they where continental Europeans.

Vallicanus
29-04-13, 16:13
By the time of the Romans, R1b was the only thing dominating Italy, and the in-coming J2. Trust me...the Etruscans where no "elites", its the other way around pretty much, the r1b men pioneered the Roman Empire, they where fierce warriors, they incorporated the "Etruscans" and took them along for the ride pretty much is what happened.

You have no scientific studies to back up your claims that the Latin Romans were mainly R1b.

Many could have been J2 or G or any other haplogroup.

One cannot glibly make unsupported statements as if they were scientific fact.

adamo
29-04-13, 16:17
Many Etruscans, incorporated into the Romans later where J2. As for G, G2a the P15 in particular it moved from Caucasus through Anatolia then Greece then southern Italy then Sardinia where it is responsible for Nuraghic culture and found in 20% of Sardinian males in certain regions, highest levels of G2a in Europe. They left no precisely strong mark on Italy and set up no famous or well-known italian-mainland civilization; a very secondary and unsuccessful genetic element overall, although its found in 8-9% of italian males, certain pockets in the south have maximums of 15%. Some of them where also fused to Romans , but had very secondary presence overall.

Goga
29-04-13, 16:21
Latin is an Indo-European language and is related to R1b. There were just much more R1b people in amount than 'Anatolian' Etruscans. After the unification of the 2 groups hg. R1b are still dominating the Romans. The 'flesh' of R1b people made it possible to expand to other regions. But the founding fathers of the Roman Empire were still Etruscans. The majority of the romanempire were R1b folks, of course their language, Latin was a language of common people.

J2 was the brain and soul, R1b was the flesh & heart (soldiers, equipment, tools) of the ROMAN Empire in the early stage.

adamo
29-04-13, 16:24
We can settle for that lol I like your statement and this is my personal belief! : )

adamo
29-04-13, 16:33
As for the Etruscans, its often debated that they where either Mycenaean Greeks, western ANATOLIANS or even more exotic elements such as Armenians. They competed with the Greeks but received much cultural influence from them, even slightly "hellenizing" their gods and religious beliefs. If the Etruscans where in fact related to Lydians as is assumed, it becomes easy to see, through Lydian religious gods and customs, how we start getting much closer to the Middle East, sharing gods with Assyrians and such people's. as for linguistic evidence, Etruscan is not very as greek is, upon analyzing modern day Armenian although, it becomes clear that Etruscan is shockingly similar to Armenian, which has already been proposed as being home of the original pelasgians, Phrygians, etc. an excellent book to read would be Robert Ellis's " The Armenian origin of the Etruscans" written based on cultural, historical and linguistic evidence. Once upon a time, the roman tongue expanded and killed off most expanding Celtic languages. And once upon a time, the greek tongue expanded, killing off "Armenian" dialects which where spread from Italy to Asia Minor and in Armenia, until the only dialect akin to Armenian left was Armenian itself, still spoken upon the throne of its origin in Armenia herself. The Thracian race was traced from the far frontiers of Medea to the doorstep of central Italy. Some of the furthest to the east of this race where the Armenians. The furthest to th west where the Etruscans and raetians.

adamo
29-04-13, 16:55
Long ago the Armenian race stretched from the saraparae of media all the way to the Lydians/Phrygians of western Anatolia, but these western-Anatolian elements where cut off from the main seat of the Thraki ( Armenia) by a Syrian race near Syria and eastern turkey. The my diane, Lydians, lycians and Carians where all of this Armenia race.

kamani
29-04-13, 17:13
Some more info on Etruscan-Minoan-Lydian connection:
http://news.softpedia.com/news/DNA-Clears-Up-The-Origin-of-the-Etruscans-57551.shtml

adamo
29-04-13, 17:30
Good study; an Etruscan-Turkish link.

Vallicanus
29-04-13, 18:13
Latin is an Indo-European language and is related to R1b. There were just much more R1b people in amount than 'Anatolian' Etruscans. After the unification of the 2 groups hg. R1b are still dominating the Romans. The 'flesh' of R1b people made it possible to expand to other regions. But the founding fathers of the Roman Empire were still Etruscans. The majority of the romanempire were R1b folks, of course their language, Latin was a language of common people.

J2 was the brain and soul, R1b was the flesh & heart (soldiers, equipment, tools) of the ROMAN Empire in the early stage.


Mere rhetoric.

Prove the link between the Latin language and haplogroup R1b.

Goga
29-04-13, 18:29
Oh, I can't.

R1b (maybe with J2) is connected to Indo-European CENTUM languages. Latin was an Indo-European languages evolved from a more archaic 'Italic' language. Modern descendant of the 'Italic' language group is Latin. Latin was a main source of Romance languages subgroup.

Romance languages = Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese and Romanian. Except Romania in all those countries R1b is a dominant haplogroup.

The second biggest haplogroup in Spain, Portugal and Italy = J2. And there’s also lots of J2 in France and Romania. In Romania there's even more J2 than in West European countries.

I believe there's a correlation between hg. R1b, J2 and Romance languages (Centum).

adamo
29-04-13, 18:31
There have been many migrations of celts to the italian peninsula ( golasecca Gauls, polada culture, there was a Gaulish substratum across veneto and all of northern Italy, the pre-Etruscan Villanova culture of central Italy showed many links to Halstatt and unetice cultures, all these cultures of continental European Italians, can be linked to the latins. The latins where a similar group, if not even descendants of one of these pre-Etruscan cultures that dominated Italy several thousand years before small bands of middle easterners arrived by sea. The Etruscans had their own tongue, barbaric and exotic to Europe; it clusters today very close with modern Armenian, it was nothing like Latin, although the latins may have borrowed a few words from it. But overall, the Latin tongue differed significantly from the Etruscan one. I believe solely in a link between the spread of Latin via r1b u152 people, and its adoption by other R1b people's predominantly, as the Etruscan language was not even indo-European; a language isolate borrowing more from archaic euboean greek dialects and Phoenician.

adamo
29-04-13, 18:40
In fact, it may be that Etruscan resembles Armenian ( even though the latter is European) and that one of the sub-families of pelasgian Greeks possibly Achaeans but I would say Ionians, where themselves also a Thracian/Armenian extension. As the Hittites spoke an indo-European language as well it is often theorized that ancient Hittites also found their origins in the Thracian race with its throne in Armenia.

adamo
29-04-13, 18:53
Robert Ellis and "The Armenian origins of the Etruscans" an amazing book to read and downloadable and made free over the Internet to read! Just write the author and book into google, go to page 1, and read away : ) Robert Ellis based his hypothesis primarily upon history and linguistics, an extremely capable linguist, he was shocked upon discovering the marked similarity between modern-day Armenian and a certain language/culture that flourished in the hills of north-central Italy. Until he realized, the Thracian race was centred upon Armenia and there where several other Armenian dialects spread by Armenian colonizers: pelasgians, Phrygians, Etruscans, Lydians....sea people's possibly! The Thracian race was once spread out from Armenia to the hills of Tuscany, but these languages where conquered and went extinct, other than in the throne of these thracians, Armenia herself.

albanopolis
30-04-13, 04:04
Etruscans! Everyone claims them. In fact they were natives of Italy, same way Romans were. Get over it!

adamo
30-04-13, 04:07
They where not "natives" from Italy forever as the Paleolithic celts where, they where more recent Neolithic arrivers from the middle East to Italy, you should be embarrassed about the comment you just posted.

albanopolis
30-04-13, 17:58
Keeping in mind that everyone was born in Africa, even Chinese at some point in distant past came from middle east. So no surprise that Etruscan too came from there. Keeping also in mind that Airplanes were not invented at that time, any suggestion that Etruscan s came from Turkey, Armenia, Middle East, Left Side East or Right side East is bolloni, ignorance, delusion. Etruscan s were a people that developed there in Italy. Basks too don.t have an indoeuropean language like the Etruscans, does it make them Turks also?

adamo
30-04-13, 18:13
No because 90% of basques are R1b. The Etruscans came by boat, which by the way existed at the time. You give a weak argument. Ever heard of archaic forms of naval travel? Wooden boats?

albanopolis
30-04-13, 22:33
Really! The boats existed? I did not know Armenia is a coastal country. How the people of Turkey in the ancient times new about existence Of Italic peninsula? They had cell phones!?How come the Etruscan s found an empty space in the peninsula that nobody opposed them? If they came from middle east they should have known to build pyramids. In how many ships did they come?Why there by the way? They were developed there as people and they show in their artifacts contacts with Greek culture as a result of trade.

adamo
01-05-13, 03:02
They moved on land from Armenia to western turkey as Lydian/Phrygian colonizers where they stayed for a significant period of time, coming in contact with Mycenaean Greeks from Crete and mainland Greece who where setting up colonies on the coast of Asia Minor. They did not know of Italy; they set out on a journey with tyyrhenus and tarchon, brothers; all they knew was that as the Phoenicians had done before them, they had to travel out further than Greece for their presence would be opposed there. Upon arriving in Italy via the Tyrrhenian Sea at the height of Umbria, they changed their name from Lydians to tyrrhenians, as a sign of respect towards their leader who successfully led them to another nation, escaping hunger and a great famine in western anatolia.They would not have known how to build pyramids as they where middle-easterners and not north-Africans such as Egyptians. The Greeks, who also expanded to southern Italy later, where predominantly pelasgians themselves ( Ionians,Achaeans) but they would, at this point, coexist with the Etruscans as the Etruscans chose to ally themselves with the great peninsular latins; the greek colonies where extra "living space" to the Greeks, indispensable territory and so they changed their politics since the days of attacking/expulsing the Trojans...that's just what Etruscans where, a Trojan type race like the Troad Trojans ( dardanians) who themselves where an extension of Phrygians/thracians/Armenians and once these Trojans where synonym to Hittites and such people's, established in Anatolia, Syria, Lebanon since "forever" first men responsible for Chatal Hoyuk and such ancient first sites of Anatolian civilization.

adamo
31-05-13, 06:20
Also, we can historically find Cyme in Azerbaijan, but more interestingly, in western turkey. Cyme is found in ancient Lydian territory as are two other cities Elea (ancient Lydia) and Myrinna. We can also find Myrinna on the Etruscan island of Lemnos, Cyme in southern Italy and Enna in Sicily (derived from Elea). It is from Enna that Pluto is said to have carried off Persephone. Her rape is represented upon the ancient coins of Enna (Sicily) and Elea (south Italy) and in the ancient coins of Lydia And Caria in modern day turkey. Somehow sarpedon and ancient Crete where a sort of "intermediary" between the Etruscan-middle eastern ad Lydian-Turkish ancient worlds; many ancient Minoans/Mycenaeans (Cretans) , Turks (Lydians,lycians,Carians) and the italian Etruscans where all "brother" civilizations, sharing the same genes.

RHAS
22-08-13, 19:02
Romulus and Remus are descendants of Aeneas the Trojan according to Vergillus.

RHAS
22-08-13, 20:29
"Several authors have proposed that the Indo-European language presently spoken by Armenians arose during the Bronze Age, when Indo-European speaking tribes from the Balkans and Greece invaded Anatolia and Transcaucasia, leading to the subsequent spread of their culture and language. In this study, we have detected a number of lineages that are prominent in the Balkans (I2*, I2b*, J2b1 and J2b2) at low levels throughout Ararat Valley, Gardman and Lake Van, the latter of which also contains haplogroups commonly associated with Bronze Age Greece (ie, J2a8-M319 (4.9%), and E1b1b1-M78 and its sublineages (3.9%)). While this may suggest genetic input from early Greek or Phrygian tribes, it is also possible that these low levels of Balkan lineages arrived in Armenia at a later time, such as during one of the many incursions into the area during the reign of the Macedonian, Roman and Byzantine empires."
Neolithic patrilineal signals indicate that the Armenian plateau was repopulated by agriculturalists.
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v20/n3/full/ejhg2011192a.html (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v20/n3/full/ejhg2011192a.html)

Alexander Akopian
27-09-16, 05:57
Goga, you're a typical Georgian mammal yet ignorant one. While you're making such a selfish claim that Armenians are not of a Y HG J2, ought to say that your lopsided thinking holds no gravity nor preponderance for such a claim. Here's something for your info:

Armenian men's most common Y-DNA (paternal) haplogroup is R1b, found in about 28 percent of those studied. J2 is the next most common at a frequency of 22 percent. Other haplogroups found among them, in descending order of frequencies, include G (11%), J1 (11%), R1a (8%), T (6%), E (5%), I (4%), L (4%), N (2%), and others (1%).
-----------------------
Consequently, indo-European part you have misinterpreted drastically. FYI, DNA has nothing to do with language family. While mute people have no language they carry DNA in almost any group one way or the other. In terms of language is just an occurred blah blah bla. As much as you donkeys hate Armenians your poor assessment and evaluation about Armenians' genomes makes not one bit of a difference or change. You know it very well Georgians Azeris Turks are all there because of thanks to Armenians and Armenian civilization. There are more Armenian churches in Georgia built by Armenians than buildings built by Georgians. You slimy tunnel rat have the courage to even open your filthy mouth in reference to Armenians. Armenians created Georgians and Azeris and Turks.

As far as ascertaining the difference between the Indo-European languages and Semitic languages, first of all how the hell would you know what is what,? Secondly you wouldn't know the difference anyway. Why don't you leave that up to the linguists to ascertain that? Nevertheless the specific languages you're referring to either Urartian or Hurrian are both related to Armenian language and are Indo-European language. However ancient times there were no languages categorized as whether Indo-European or Semitic. Those times languages were limited to cuneiform scripts and mostly were Simmerian and Akkadian cuneiform. Assyrians too implemented Simmerian cuneiform. The real decent alphabets emerged much later were limited to Phrygian, Hebrew and Armenian. The rest were cuneiform type alphabets. Even Great Armenian Mesrop Mashtots invented Georgian alphabets but Georgians don't have the decency to admit to it. It's an honor to use the alphabets but shame to admit its source? That's kind of creatures you Georgians are. Now you have the audacity to define Armenians while you really defiling yourself. Goga joba.

Goga
27-09-16, 06:24
Goga, you're a typical Georgian mammal yet ignorant one. While you're making such a selfish claim that Armenians are not of a Y HG J2, ought to say that your lopsided thinking holds no gravity nor preponderance for such a claim. Here's something for your info:

Armenian men's most common Y-DNA (paternal) haplogroup is R1b, found in about 28 percent of those studied. J2 is the next most common at a frequency of 22 percent. Other haplogroups found among them, in descending order of frequencies, include G (11%), J1 (11%), R1a (8%), T (6%), E (5%), I (4%), L (4%), N (2%), and others (1%).This is your first post and right away you insult me? You registered to this site only to insult me? Do I know you? Don't insult when you didn't understand me. I didn't say that there is no J2 among Armenian people. I said that J2 is NOT Armenian, period. Sure Armenians have it, but so do Georgians, Greeks, Italians, Kurds, Persians etc.

What? Armenians created Georgians? I have no normal comment for this.

Azeris NEVER created the Turks. Before Seljuks/Tatars arrived, Azeri were Iranic speaking people. It were the Seljuks who created the Turks. Or if I would take you seriously, I would say it were the Anatolian Armenians who created the Turks, right?

Alexander Akopian
27-09-16, 06:46
Donkey, for one to identify and categorize a language, it must be heard and studied first to make an assessment whether it belongs to indo-European language family or Semitic. Etruscan Language was never categorized and therefore it remained as a subject of widespread guess. Those ancient languages were only categorized because the linguists studied those languages based on the descendants languages. But those languages that were not studied were not categorized as neither indo- European nor Semitic language family. Hurro-urartian language is neither indo-European nor Semitic not because they do not fit the category but because the linguists haven't been able to study. All languages belong to either language family and there are only two language families to relate to. Indo-European and Semitic. Because a language hasn't been categorized that doesn't mean the language does not belong to either language family group. You're really are out talking out the top of your hat without understanding your own mind. By the way you keep mentioning about Latin and I fear you have no clue that Latin is derived from Greek and Greek derived from early Phrygian language and alphabets. JFYI out of all DNA studies, Etruscans share the highest DNA with Armenians at the ratio of 11% as well as their cattle shared the highest DNA values with the cattle of Armenian. One in the right mind would have to understand that language can evolve and revolve so rapidly with deviation of dialects which easily develops into completely different language and even developing into a different language family. Do not firmly rely on the language support alone. There are lots of characteristics that contributing to those differences. Of course DNA is a major support in identifying ancestral tree.

Alexander Akopian
30-09-16, 22:44
Also Y-DNA haplogroup J2 is not Armenian, but a West-Asian / (Paleo-)Caucasian marker. Hg. J2 created the greatest civilizations on earth, Caucasian Civilizations (Shulaveri-Shomu, Kura–Araxes, Trialeti, Maykop), Mesopotamian (Hassuna and Halaf) , Iranic (Aryan), Hellenic, Roman etc. Together with hg. R1b it's the most talented, gifted and inventive haplogroup. R1b is actually more adventurous of the two, while J2 is more creative one.

Above you said "J2 is not Armenian, but a west Asian/Caucasian marker" I wonder what does this mean? Did you already make your own assessment in terms of what nations are considered Caucasusians what nations aren't? And since you think I do not understand your statement clearly, you may wish to illustrate the context. That way I'll have no doubts Mr. HG J2 and R1b. lol

Armenian men's most common Y-DNA (paternal) haplogroup is R1b, found in about 28 percent of those studied. J2 is the next most common at a frequency of 22 percent. Other haplogroups found among them, in descending order of frequencies, include G (11%), J1 (11%), R1a (8%), T (6%), E (5%), I (4%), L (4%), N (2%), and others (1%).

since by your own words you assigned HG R1b and J2 to talented folks, (while R1b is responsible for talent and J2 is responsible for creativity) and since Armenians possess both of these values at considerably higher rate, might you say that Armenians are the most talented creatures in the world?

You are fascinated about this J2 thing aren't you? Well I hope you have many of those Y - chromosomes. LoL

Alexander Akopian
30-09-16, 22:50
This is your first post and right away you insult me? You registered to this site only to insult me? Do I know you? Don't insult when you didn't understand me. I didn't say that there is no J2 among Armenian people. I said that J2 is NOT Armenian, period. Sure Armenians have it, but so do Georgians, Greeks, Italians, Kurds, Persians etc.

What? Armenians created Georgians? I have no normal comment for this.

Azeris NEVER created the Turks. Before Seljuks/Tatars arrived, Azeri were Iranic speaking people. It were the Seljuks who created the Turks. Or if I would take you seriously, I would say it were the Anatolian Armenians who created the Turks, right?


Also Y-DNA haplogroup J2 is not Armenian, but a West-Asian / (Paleo-)Caucasian marker. Hg. J2 created the greatest civilizations on earth, Caucasian Civilizations (Shulaveri-Shomu, Kura–Araxes, Trialeti, Maykop), Mesopotamian (Hassuna and Halaf) , Iranic (Aryan), Hellenic, Roman etc. Together with hg. R1b it's the most talented, gifted and inventive haplogroup. R1b is actually more adventurous of the two, while J2 is more creative one.



I'm reacting to your automated mentality. If you're negative toward Armenians because of anger, that doesn't support the reality. You're trying to be negative and constantly attack Armenians for whatever problem you have with them.

Do do the Georgians bother me in therms of where they're standing on the map? No they do not bother me nor I will be negative towards them regardless whether I like them or not, I will stick to the reality. I do not lie to myself.

Coriolan
30-09-16, 23:15
Romulus and Remus are descendants of Aeneas the Trojan according to Vergillus.
Bloody distant descendants then. Rome was supposedly founded 500 years after the fall of Troy. I don't think that many Europeans can trace back their ancestry so far even with the use of official records carefully maintained in government archives. How could people 3000 years ago have known who their ancestors were five centuries before? It's mostly just fairy tales and wishful thinking.

Angela
30-09-16, 23:36
People in pre-historical and even historical times wanted to associate themselves with great empires or leaders of the past. So, the Romans wanted to be associated with the Trojans, in opposition to the Greeks. The Julii clan of Caesar said they descended from Venus.

By the Middle Ages, around 1200 AD, the Danes, French and Welsh were all claiming descent from the Trojans. So were the Scots, through descent from "Brutus of Troy". The Scots also claimed at one point to descend from Scota, a daughter of an Egyptian pharaoh. It's all just an attempt to make your people more "ancient" and more illustrious. It amazes me to read internet posts giving credence to some of these as some sort of ancestral memory. What possible "ancestral memory" could the Scots have of descent from Egyptians?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brutus_of_Troy

https://books.google.com/books?id=jrISDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA14&lpg=PA14&dq=The+Scots+were+descended+from+Trojans&source=bl&ots=DAI7_mM-Yh&sig=YvaPsg5FkjjryrVumQ3K8CC_53k&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi93ayH97fPAhWIlx4KHbp_DngQ6AEIMzAF#v=on epage&q=The%20Scots%20were%20descended%20from%20Trojans&f=false

Azzurro
01-10-16, 22:17
Hg. E , J1 and maybe T are Semitic-style Middle Eastern/Southwest Asian haplogroups. J2 is not Semitic.


Goga, not necessarily true, there are different subclades of each over a large time frame, some J1, E and T are associated with Semitic language and culture groups, example E-V13 is not Semitic but E-M123 is, even at that the mutations are old, it would be down streams you need to look at. As for J2, same goes for it, J2 has subclades that are associated with Semitic Cultures and others that aren't, I would include J2 in your Semitic-style Middle Eastern/Southwest Asian haplogroups, as J2 was involved with Northwest Semitic languages and people. Take a look at the people who spoke Northwest Semitic and you'll the correlation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Semitic_languages

Sile
01-10-16, 23:42
Goga, not necessarily true, there are different subclades of each over a large time frame, some J1, E and T are associated with Semitic language and culture groups, example E-V13 is not Semitic but E-M123 is, even at that the mutations are old, it would be down streams you need to look at. As for J2, same goes for it, J2 has subclades that are associated with Semitic Cultures and others that aren't, I would include J2 in your Semitic-style Middle Eastern/Southwest Asian haplogroups, as J2 was involved with Northwest Semitic languages and people. Take a look at the people who spoke Northwest Semitic and you'll the correlation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Semitic_languages

The 40000 hittite tablets as we know show no semitic language and with this the Northern levant as part of the hittite area for many many centuries , would at the time would have had no semitic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syro-Hittite_states
with the collapse of the hittite around 1100Bc , would be the first time that we can see any pre-phoenician people or even any semitic linguistic group enter the northern levant

With Phoenicians showing mostly J2 origin as per the old paper by nat-geno , then either
1- the phoenicians came via the north of the zargos mountains bringing no semitic language and semitic came to this levant area from others or

2- J2 brought semitic from the south levant to form the phoenicians

Azzurro
02-10-16, 10:22
The 40000 hittite tablets as we know show no semitic language and with this the Northern levant as part of the hittite area for many many centuries , would at the time would have had no semitic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syro-Hittite_states
with the collapse of the hittite around 1100Bc , would be the first time that we can see any pre-phoenician people or even any semitic linguistic group enter the northern levant

With Phoenicians showing mostly J2 origin as per the old paper by nat-geno , then either
1- the phoenicians came via the north of the zargos mountains bringing no semitic language and semitic came to this levant area from others or

2- J2 brought semitic from the south levant to form the phoenicians

Thanks Sile for the theories, Ugarite was considered a Northwest Semitic language as well, what I was trying to get across was that J2 was native to Northern Levant atleast some subclades, and they would have been Northwest Semitic speaking peoples or helped spread it, like Pheonicians, Aramaics, and Israelites, however we cannot be certain that the Hittites were J2, though I personally believe they had a nice chunk, but it was the Cilicians, Hurrians and Ugarites that were involved with the Northern Levant as natives, the Hitties were Indo-european the other three weren't. I think some J2 was native Semitic Speaking as some were Indo-european or adapted cultures. I don't think there is a correlation between Phoenicians and Hittites, but rather Cilicians, Hurrians, and Ugarities would have had some even if the Hitties controlled the area.

Arame
02-10-16, 10:56
Alexander

As for Georgian alphabet. Georgians have 3 types of alphabet. The one You refer that is probably created by Mesrop Mashtots is the oldest one that is no more used. You can compare them here and see that the oldest one's graphics is similar to Armenian and Caucasian Albanian one. Thus very probable created by the same person.
While the modern Georgian alphabet is very different.

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/georgian.htm

Arame
02-10-16, 11:15
Without actual Etruscan aDNA everything here is a speculation. Adna is very impredictable.

Sile
02-10-16, 20:16
Thanks Sile for the theories, Ugarite was considered a Northwest Semitic language as well, what I was trying to get across was that J2 was native to Northern Levant atleast some subclades, and they would have been Northwest Semitic speaking peoples or helped spread it, like Pheonicians, Aramaics, and Israelites, however we cannot be certain that the Hittites were J2, though I personally believe they had a nice chunk, but it was the Cilicians, Hurrians and Ugarites that were involved with the Northern Levant as natives, the Hitties were Indo-european the other three weren't. I think some J2 was native Semitic Speaking as some were Indo-european or adapted cultures. I don't think there is a correlation between Phoenicians and Hittites, but rather Cilicians, Hurrians, and Ugarities would have had some even if the Hitties controlled the area.

Ciliciians could be pre-armenians arriving there around 100BC until 1200AD

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Kingdom_of_Cilicia



the hurrians could be the same as the Mitanni ...........pre-Kurdish people ..........did they speak semitic ?......I doubt that

Azzurro
02-10-16, 23:07
Sile, the Mitanni were Indo-Aryan speaking, for me it represents the ruling class, the locals Hurrians would most likely have been J2 along the Cilicans, what I was trying to say in the earlier post is some J2 was native in Semitic speaking areas, lets say the Phoencians they spoke Punic a Semitic language and had Some J2 lineages, when they would settle in other areas of the Mediterranean they would spread their J2 which would have been Semitic speaking, basically what I am trying to say is Some J2 subclades adapted the Semitic language, I don't think they were originally Semitic speakers but rather adapted, so some J2 is associated with Semites.

femekh
03-12-17, 22:22
Turks and Azeris and Lebanese are Semitic they all have J2 and J1 also, but Semites such as Jews are predominantly j2, there's also an intrusive invading E element in Semites that is correct, it was absorbed by them. There was a proto-European substratum across Italy long before the north-mesopotamians of the Neolithic and Greeks of j2 arrived.

Jews are not predominantly J2. They are J1 (Semitic). J2 (Indo-European) had a solely Anatolian/Armenian Highlands point of origin. Hence the fact around 40% of Iranians, a large component of Caucasus Mountains peoples, Balkan, and Tuscans belong to that yDNA Hg

John Doe
03-12-17, 22:49
Jews are not predominantly J2. They are J1 (Semitic). J2 (Indo-European) had a solely Anatolian/Armenian Highlands point of origin. Hence the fact around 40% of Iranians, a large component of Caucasus Mountains peoples, Balkan, and Tuscans belong to that yDNA Hg
Actually, I believe for AJs J2 is more common than J1.

Ygorcs
04-12-17, 01:30
Jews are not predominantly J2. They are J1 (Semitic). J2 (Indo-European) had a solely Anatolian/Armenian Highlands point of origin. Hence the fact around 40% of Iranians, a large component of Caucasus Mountains peoples, Balkan, and Tuscans belong to that yDNA Hg

That SOME Indo-European peoples have a lot of J2 doesn't lead us to conclude that J2 is Indo-European, especially if J2 is clearly found in high percentages only where Indo-Europeans neighbor non-IE peoples or have absorbed en masse non-IE Middle Eastern peoples even in historic and documented times, like Armenians (< Urartians and Hurrians), and Iranians (< Elamites, Assyrians etc.).

Pax Augusta
04-12-17, 01:59
The Etruscans allied themselves with the Carthaginians as their interests collided with those of the Greeks.

Even Romans were allied with the Carthaginians. Etruscans allied with the Carthaginians only after the Greeks from Phocaea
founded colonies in Corsica and this happened around V-VI century BC. Etruscans were so close to Greeks before that that long ago the Etruscans had various thesaurus in temples of Greece.

Bergin
05-12-17, 20:25
I would be quite curious about the genetics of the Elba island. If Sardinia was a safe heaven for what was left of the old EEF, maybe Elba does the same for Ethruscans. Just an hypothesis.

Sent from my SM-G903F using Eupedia Forum mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Pax Augusta
05-12-17, 20:41
I would be quite curious about the genetics of the Elba island. If Sardinia was a safe heaven for what was left of the old EEF, maybe Elba does the same for Ethruscans. Just an hypothesis.

Elba is very close to mainland Italy, only an hour by ferry, and the southern part was even under the Spanish rule; Elba has never been an "isolated" island.

Angela
05-12-17, 20:44
This is pure speculation so give it the attention, or more likely, the lack of attention it deserves. :)

A lot people, including me and Italian researchers who looked at the mtDna of the Etruscans, have speculated that the modern people who are probably the most like the ancient "Etruscans" might still be living in the southern Tuscany/Lazio area where they were the most concentrated. They couldn't all have disappeared, at least I hope not. They're my favorite ancient civilization. The Romans would have been nothing without them, imo.

http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/world/med/s4oncv1.jpg

I know the ancient mtDna studies don't show any continuity with modern people in Italy, but uniparental markers can drift out of the genome, and they didn't do broad testing of the modern population.

Now, don't anyone dare throw this post at my head when we finally get a fully sequenced "Etruscan" genome for comparison! :) This is sheer speculation, and a tentative one at that.

I just noticed that half of Lina Cavalieri's ancestry came from an Etruscan stronghold: Viterbo. The other half is Marchigiana, but I don't know the actual town. :)