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dublin
30-04-13, 18:52
Many years ago I noticed strange similarities between Irish and Serbian mythology, language, toponymes and hydronymes. This was a mystery because according to history, these two peoples never lived in the same area of Europe at the same time, and therefore should not have been able to influence each other. And yet the number of similar or identical cultural, religious and linguistic characteristics kept growing. Also, people between the Balkans and Ireland did not share these cultural traits. This meant that there was no cultural diffusion. The conclusion was that these two people (Serbian and Irish) must have lived together somewhere at some point in history in order to mix their languages and cultures so much.
While trying to uncover potential meeting point, I first looked at Viking invasions from the south Baltic. While there were many things pointing to a substantial West Slavic presence among the Danish Vikings who settled in England and Ireland, this all happened too late in order to explain hundreds of old Irish words and names which were identical to the Serbian ones. Not only were these words the same, they came in clusters and could often have a root in only one of languages with complex words being present in both. It also could not explain the early medieval Irish personal names which had meaning in Serbian. It also could not explain all the grammatical constructs which were identical in Irish and in Serbian. Vikings just didn’t have that big a cultural influence to force the Irish to accept Slavic grammar.
I then looked at the Ango – Saxon period and discovered that there was a significant West Slavic (Wendish) presence in the Angles alliance. They settled in large areas of England, and there was a possibility that some unrecorded Angles settlements did appear in Ireland in the early medieval time with significant West Slavic population. But again this could not explain all the grammatical constructs which were identical in Irish and in Serbian. If there were Angles settlements in Ireland in the early medieval time, they again just didn’t have that big a cultural influence to force the Irish to accept Slavic grammar. Also there was a problem of even earlier archaeological finds, linked to the iron age, which had Serbian and Slavic characteristics. There were too many old customs, legends, sacred sites which had their counterparts in Slavic countries and particularly Balkan South Slavic countries.
So I looked at Rome, and Roman invasions of Britain and wandered was this maybe the source of common cultural characteristics between the Irish and the Serbs. But Romans never entered Ireland and there is no known record of Irish mercenaries in the Roman army, so that removed a possible connection once again.
So I looked at Iron Age period and found many things which pointed to a significant cultural influx from the south Baltic. There was a great similarity between Lusatian culture in the south Baltic and the Iron Age cultures in Ireland and England, and it seems that the Iron Age was brought to Ireland on the spears and swords of the people from south Baltic. This was a good starting point. The warrior elite from the Baltic could have brought with them their beliefs, their language and their customs, and forced them on the people they encountered in Ireland. But that would not explain the huge number of toponymes and hydronimes in the Balkans which have no meaning in Slavic languages but do have meaning in Irish. And these toponymes and hydronimes come in clusters and are tightly connected with the location of the Balkan tumulus culture sites. Also this would not explain the presence of all the words, and grammatical constructs which only exist in Irish and in certain dialects of south Slavic languages and particularly in some old dialects of Serbian. This also would not explain all the base words in South Slavic languages which can be broken down and explained using Irish. For this to be possible, Irish speaking people had to be present in the Balkans in great numbers for a very long time during the Iron Age and even during the Bronze Age.
So I looked at Celts as a possible cultural link between the two people. They were the rulers of central Europe, precisely the area between the Baltic and the Balkans. That would have given them the ability to influence both the Irish and the people who would later become the Western Slavs. But Celts never had any significant long term presence in the Balkans. They came through the Balkans on the way to Asia Minor in the 3rd century bc. But their main strongholds were in the area above Danube. The area below Danube was the land of the Illyrians. Illyrians and Celts were by some people linked and called Celto – Illyrians. This certainly was a good lead. If Illyrians actually spoke the same or similar language to the Celts, then that would explain all the similarities between the Irish and Serbian languages but only if we accept that both the Irish and Serbian languages are direct descendants of the Celto Illyrian language and that Celtic and Illyrian were the same language.
This was already getting very controversial, as this would mean that there is a cultural continuity in the area between the Baltic and the Balkan lasting for more than 2500 years. This would mean that there is an underlying Celtic cultural layer in the Slavic culture and that the Slavic culture was created as a fusion of the Celtic and Skito Sarmatian cultures? The similarities between the Irish and Serbian cultures would then be the Celtic layer, and that would allow us to decipher the Celtic language from Irish and Slavic languages. This was very exciting. But there were things that could not be explained with the Celtic connection.
First it could not explain the amount of the words, customs, legends from old Rome and old Greece which could not be explained through Old Greek and Latin but could using Irish and Serbian language and culture. The only way this was possible was that somehow these cultural influences came to Italy and Greece from the Balkans at the time before the formation of both Kingdome of Rome and the Classical Greece. And there were plenty of ancient historical texts, as well as archaeological data that pointed to exactly that was the case.
The latest archaeological data from Serbia confirms that iron was invented in the Balkans. The earliest iron metallurgical centre in the world, dated to 14th–13th century b BC, was found in south eastern Serbia in the hill fort settlement on the hill called Hisar. This site belongs to the earliest proto Illyrian period.
So there was a culture in the Balkans powerful enough to influence Rome, Greece and Celtic central Europe. This had moved the meeting point where the future Irish and Serbs lived together to the Balkans in the end of the second and the beginning of the first millennium BC and identified the Illyrian culture as the root culture for both the Irish and the Serbs. But this culture also greatly influenced Old Rome and Greece which was evident from the amount of cultural characteristics and linguistic traces in both cultures which were in all the ancient texts attributed to the mysterious Pelasgians who even more mysteriously disappeared from the face of the earth together with their Illyrian and Celtic neighbours. These Pelasgians, Illyrians and Celts now turned out to be alive and well in the Irish, South and Western Slavs….This was getting really interesting.
But then I came across the story about Vinca metallurgical revolution which happened in the 4th millennium BC. At the same time when they were making lots of Copper and Bronze weapons, Vinca people were creating a first organized religion. When you have well-armed religious fanatics you can be sure that a religious war is not far behind. And that is exactly what seemed to have happened in the second half of the 4th millennium BC. Vinca culture suddenly disappeared from the Balkans, but Vinca artefacts started appearing all over Europe, Asia and North Africa. And all of a sudden all these great civilisations started appearing everywhere, all based on the same symbols, the wolf, the eagle and other birds, the snake, the bee, the bull, the double axe, the mother goddess earth, the father sky, the son sun and daughter moon, the bird people and wolf people. The Vincans went out of the Balkans and took over the world, wielding their metal spears, swords and axes and carrying their wolf totems before them. They also took with them their language whose traces can be now found in all the Indo European languages.
But they did not all leave. Some stayed at home and they later morphed into Illyrians. Those who went north eventually became Celts and Germans. Those who reached Britain and Ireland eventually became Gaels.
Later the descendants of the Vincans returned, in waves from all sides, bringing with them new cultural and linguistic characteristics which they acquired over the centuries while mixing with the indo European peoples they had conquered. These new cultural and linguistic layers were deposited on top of the old European strand of Vinca culture which was created from the mix of Vincans and the other old European cultures. Steppe people came from the east, Asia minor and Mesopotamians from the south east, North African people from the south, Atlantic people from the west. And the Vinca culture slowly disappeared.
The isolation of the Irish at the end of Europe, and the sheer number and military strength of the mountain people of the Balkans and the Central European mountains helped them to preserve this Vinca cultural and linguistic layer to this day, albeit covered with thick layers of Gaelic and Slavic and many other cultures and Languages.
Comparing these two languages I believe that I have now uncovered this culture and language of old Europe. It could not be better.
But this is not all.
I also believe that in this old language I have discovered a possibility to reconstruct the oldest language spoken in Europe, the language before the language. I believe that I have discovered how the first language was formed in Europe from natural sounds, and how this earliest human language was preserved and conserved in the Irish and Serbian languages and their base words.
To support my theory, I have accumulated a lot of material which I am translating into English. I am planning to make it available as soon as possible. The work is however in progress and I am writing this to invite everyone who might be interested to help me to continue this investigation as this is becoming too big and too important for just one man.
I hope this does not sound too mad or pretentious. You have to believe me that I am pinching myself every day, as it is hard to believe that anyone can be so lucky to stumble across something like this…

dublin
01-05-13, 11:08
Ok first things first. I need to define what and who the "Serbs" are. It seems that “Serb” or probably originally just SRB originally meant a member of a Vincan military elite, almost like a religious military order. This name for a warrior was spread around the world with vincan invaders and could explain all the Sar, Ser, Sur, Sir, Sor, names, toponymes, place names that we find strewn from Britain to Mesopotamia.
Only much later in the old Vinca land, and in the adjoining central European lands between Balkans and Baltic, this became the name for tribes ruled by this warrior elite. Maybe this was the name that Vincans used to call themselves, and that is the reason it survived in the Balkan - Baltic area, but i can't prove that.

So lets see where the meaning of Serb comes from:


Saor in Irish means free.
Sar in Irish is a suffix which means the best, grandest, highest, most respected
Bean in Irish means to strike, to cut which together means to fight.

bean

touch, Irish beanaim, beat, touch, appertain to, Old Irish benim, pulso, ferio, Breton bena, to cut, Middle Breton benaff, hit; *bina, root bin, bi (Old Irish ro bi, percussit, bithe, perculsus), from Indo-European bhi, bhei, hit; Church Slavonic bija, biti, strike; Old High German bîhal, axe; Greek @Gfitrós, log. Further is root bheid, split, English bite. Usually bean has been referred to Indo-European @ghen, @ghon, hit, slay; Greek @Gfen-, slay, @Gepefnon, slew, @Gfónos, slaughter, @Gqeínw, strike; Sanskrit han, hit; but @gh = Gaelic b is doubtful.

So Sar + bi, bin – The one who is the best in fighting, a solder

In Serbian we have verb bit, which means to strike. In Serbian if you want to make a noun out of a verb that ends in vowel, in masculine form you would ad "n". So Sar + b(h)i + n = The one who is the best at striking....

There is no etymology to be found for Serbian, Sarbian in any Slavic language and this has long been a hot topic of contention…So this is obviously pre Slavic word.

zanipolo
01-05-13, 14:16
Ok first things first. I need to define what and who the "Serbs" are. It seems that “Serb” or probably originally just SRB originally meant a member of a Vincan military elite, almost like a religious military order. This name for a warrior was spread around the world with vincan invaders and could explain all the Sar, Ser, Sur, Sir, Sor, names, toponymes, place names that we find strewn from Britain to Mesopotamia.
Only much later in the old Vinca land, and in the adjoining central European lands between Balkans and Baltic, this became the name for tribes ruled by this warrior elite. Maybe this was the name that Vincans used to call themselves, and that is the reason it survived in the Balkan - Baltic area, but i can't prove that.

So lets see where the meaning of Serb comes from:


Saor in Irish means free.
Sar in Irish is a suffix which means the best, grandest, highest, most respected
Bean in Irish means to strike, to cut which together means to fight.

bean

touch, Irish beanaim, beat, touch, appertain to, Old Irish benim, pulso, ferio, Breton bena, to cut, Middle Breton benaff, hit; *bina, root bin, bi (Old Irish ro bi, percussit, bithe, perculsus), from Indo-European bhi, bhei, hit; Church Slavonic bija, biti, strike; Old High German bîhal, axe; Greek @Gfitrós, log. Further is root bheid, split, English bite. Usually bean has been referred to Indo-European @ghen, @ghon, hit, slay; Greek @Gfen-, slay, @Gepefnon, slew, @Gfónos, slaughter, @Gqeínw, strike; Sanskrit han, hit; but @gh = Gaelic b is doubtful.

So Sar + bi, bin – The one who is the best in fighting, a solder

In Serbian we have verb bit, which means to strike. In Serbian if you want to make a noun out of a verb that ends in vowel, in masculine form you would ad "n". So Sar + b(h)i + n = The one who is the best at striking....

There is no etymology to be found for Serbian, Sarbian in any Slavic language and this has long been a hot topic of contention…So this is obviously pre Slavic word.

nonsense, this has already been discussed in another thread here - who are the thracians.

Vinca culture is proto-thracian , not proto-slavic. The thracians where the best metal workers ( pre-iron ) , (stated by historians), then the celts took over once iron came about.

The serbs are not slavs ethnically, they are from the thracian triballi tribe and have been in present serbia for a long time, there is no migration for serbs. The serbs became slavs after they learnt the language of the slavs in the early middle ages.
Even serb nobility claim the wild boar of the triballi as part of their coat of arms.

look and search the net for triballi, seek byzantine documents as well.

adamo
01-05-13, 14:56
Zanipolo, please check out the map I posted on hg T in the haplogroup T thread and comment wat you think of its distribution :) ( sorry for going off-topic)

dublin
01-05-13, 15:01
Vinca culture is proto-thracian , not proto-slavic...The serbs are not slavs ethnically, they are from the thracian triballi tribe

You are not reading properly what i wrote. I am actually saying that Serbs are not Slavs, i am saying that they are Slavicised. All i am saying is that they have preserved a lot of pre Slavic and pre Indo european cultural and linguistic characteristics which become obvious when you compare Serbian and Irish languages.

Can you please stop fighting with someone who actually probably thinks the same as you. Read what i wrote again.

As for Thracians, a lot of cultural links going from Greece lead to Thessaly and from there lead to Thracia, the land of the red heads and indeed one of the descendants (with Illyrians and Celts) of Vinca culture. I am only now covering this period, and would be glad if we could compare the knowledge and understanding of that period. Also if you have any knowledge of Thracian language of if you know anyone who does, it would be great to compare all the common words from Irish and Serbian which i have uncovered so far, with deciphered (and still undeciphered) Thracian words, and see if there are any overlaps.

Zanipolo, You know that i was a pan Slavist. You must understand how hard was for me to accept that we Serbs have more in common, genetically and culturally and linguistically, with germanic and gaelic people than with Russians? But i believe that what i have discovered (accidentally) is very important and needs to be published.

So lets just start again...:)

dublin
01-05-13, 16:14
In Serbia you can find Mountain Tara and river Tara, but also mountain taor which is how you pronounce Teamhair (tavor, taor (tabor)) the actual old name of Tara in Ireland. People who live in this part of Serbia call themselves "Ere" and there is even a male personal name Era.

In Serbian tabor is a military camp. Utaboriti se is to set up camp. Taborovati is to camp. Tavoriti is standing in one place, not moving. Tabor, Tavor, Taur, Tara....

I know that word tabor also exists in turkish with the same meaning (a military camp), but this word predates the Turks and I believe that it is a borrowing from Serbian (Irish, Vinca language). There is a mount Taur in Lycia, the tallest mountain range in Anatolia which predates the Turkish invasions of Asia Minor. There is also attested Celtic presence in Asia Minor many centuries before Turks arrived. Huge number of Balkan "Slavs", were settled in the eastern parts of Anatolia in the early medieval time by the Byzantine empire to man the military frontier. Later on, after the Turkish conquest, core of the military elite quickly became predominantly manned by the Balkan “Slavs”. Janissary (infantry) and Delije (Cavalry) were predominantly of Balkan "Slavic" Serbian origin. Cavalry was always the strongest force in the Serbian army. The superiority of the Serbian cavalry in the 12th to 15th century Europe was absolute. They were considered the best cavalry in Europe and European Hussars originate in the late 15th-century Serbian warriors that had left Ottoman Serbia, beginning in the 14th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_hussars

At the moment there are several million Turks with Serbian (Bosnian) descent living in Turkey. So tabor can well be a very old Serbian, Irish, Vinca word for a military camp, which came into Turkish as a borrowing. Another proof that word Tabor comes from central Europe is that it is found in the languages spoken in central European lands never conquered by Turks, like Czech and Slovak...If you look at what the world for military camp is in European languages, You will see that these languages use word Tabor: South Slavic, Romanian, Czech, Slovak, Ukrainian, . Russians use лагерь, Bulgarians лагер…All Germanic and Latin based languages use Camp, including Irish…

And by the way there is no clear etymology for tara or Teamhair in Gaelic....

In Serbian "Taraba" is a fence, a barrier in front of the house, and "Za-tarabiti" is to place behind barier, to fence off....There is a word "Tar" in Irish which means to pass, so taraba could be from "tar abhaile" which means to arrive home, where taraba would be the fence that surrounds home, which signifies that you have arrived. Place of arrival kind of corresponds to tabor. You arrive to Tabor.

I believe that this also supports the above etymology for Tara, Taor, Tabor:



The Hill of Tara lies about midway between the towns of Dunshaughlin and Navan in the gently rolling countryside of south central Meath. The monuments comprising the core of the Tara complex are scattered along a low ridge about 2km long, orientated roughly north - south, a little to the west of the main Dublin-Navan road. Unimposing from the east, which is the usual modern approach, the ground rises steadily to about 155m above sea-level before dropping away quite steeply to the west, presenting an impressive vista over the central plain of Ireland.

This aspect is implicit in one of the two etymologies of its Irish name, Teamhair, provided by the ninth-century text Sanas Chormaic, i.e. a height from which there is a fine view. An alternative, and possibly more accurate, etymology emphasises the liminal nature of Tara, suggesting that the name has something to do with twilight or darkness, perhaps a sacred space or the gates to the Otherworld. It is likely, nevertheless, that the sense of elevation at Tara, which is conferred by the surrounding panorama rather than by its actual height above sea-level, was a key factor in the choice of this place for ceremonial activity.


http://www.knowth.com/tara-survey.htm

You set up tabor (military camp) on top of hills from which you can have a good view of the surrounding countryside...So in 9th century they still remembered (vaguely) the original meaning of the word. Now however we have this mumbo jumbo light dark crap which is "possibly more accurate".


It is also interesting that the hill of Tara Is in the area of Ireland which once belonged to the kingdom of Brega. In Serbian "Breg" means a small hill, and particularly man made hill. In Irish "breg" has no meaning, although i did find it translated in some places as "hill". So Breg Tabor was in the kingdom of Brega.

Here is an interesting poem from 10-12th century which talks about "tabor (Temair) breg":

http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T106500A/text001.html

The poem starts:


Temair Breg, whence is it named? Declare O sages!


Then it goes on to explain:



Cathair Crofhind ('twas not amiss)
30] was its name under the Tuatha De Danand,
till there came Tea, never unjust,
the wife of Erimon lofty of mien.
Round her house was built a rampart
by Tea daughter of Lugaid;
35] she was buried beyond the wall without,
so that from her is Temair named.
The Seat of the Kings was its name:
the kingly line of the Milesians reigned in it:
five names accordingly were given it
40] from the time when it was Fordruim till it was Temair.


So Tuatha De Danan ruled this land. They gave the name to "tabor breg". Then Milesians came and conquered the area, and the meaning of the name was forgotten. According to the Irish chronicles, Tuatha De Danan came from the North East, from across the sea, from South Baltic. They spoke a language in which "tabor breg" had a meaning. Milesians came from south west, from across the sea, from Spain. They spoke Gaelic, the language in which "tabor breg" does not have meaning.


...The Tuatha Dé Danann were descended from Nemed...Nemed was the son of Agnoman of Scythia...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_D%C3%A9_Danann
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemed

Milesians


Milesians are a people figuring in Irish mythology. The descendants of Míl Espáine (which is the Irish form of Latin Miles Hispaniae, "Soldier of Hispania"), they were the final inhabitants of Ireland invading the country from Iberia, and were believed to represent the Goidelic (or Gaelic) Celts.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milesians_(Irish)

On the fifth page of the poem it says:


Mag Breg with numerous hills


Here is what is said about the kingdom of Brega:



Brega took its name from Mag Breg, the plain of Brega in modern County Meath, County Louth and County Dublin, Ireland


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_of_Brega

Does Kingdom of Brega means the Kingdom of the hills, Tumuluses? There aren't too many tumuluses in Ireland. There are many in the Balkans. Obviously the tumulus culture came from the Balkans to Ireland.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus


A tumulus can be found close to the Grianán of Aileach in County Donegal. It has been suggested by historians such as George Petrie, who surveyed the site in the early 19th century, that the tumulus may predate the ring fort of Aileach by many centuries possibly to the neolithic age. Surrounding stones were laid horizontally, and converged towards the centre. the mound had been excavated in Petrie’s time, but nothing explaining its meaning was discovered. It was subsequently destroyed, but its former position is marked by a heap of broken stones. Similar mounds can be found at The Hill of Tara and there are several prominent tumuli at Brú na Bóinne in County Meath.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C3%BA_na_B%C3%B3inne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C3%BA_na_B%C3%B3inne)

kamani
01-05-13, 16:37
this is pointless, you're linking people that are not much related. Serbs and Irish are relatively far. Genetically: serbs, bulgarians, romanians, albanians, macedonians, montenegrins, and northern greeks cluster together. This group is just as far from Russia as it is from from Britain. The next closest group is italians. Another close group is the more southern one composed of Sicilians, southern greeks, and Levantines.

dublin
01-05-13, 18:18
this is pointless, you're linking people that are not much related. Serbs and Irish are relatively far.

This is the whole point. They are far and should not have any overlapping cultural and linguistic characteristics. But i have found hundreds of words, names, grammatical constructs, sayings, customs, beliefs, legends which are the same or are complementing each other. This is only possible if at some, very distant time these now unrelated people were one and the same. I am betting on the I haplogroup, And particularly on I2a as being the carriers of that culture. So for me Vinca = Illyria = Central Europan Celts = Lusatian culture = Old Irish culture = Central European western and south Slavic cultures = I2a. But also all the other I haplogroups I1 = Norse Germanic culture as well. These two were mixed anyway in Central Europe...


For many years--and despite enormous sums spent on WTYs etc.--the I2a-Dinaric clade common in Central-Eastern Europe has been very resistant to SNP definition and partition. Not a single SNP was found to split the clade, and the only SNP to define the clade was L147, which occurs in multiple other haplogroups and hence is not sufficiently "unique" for the FTDNA haplotree.

But finally, Geno 2.0 results have identified two SNPs that split Dinaric, and three more that define it. All five are now available for order from FTDNA.

CTS10228 and CTS5966 were ancestral in one south-central Polish Dinaric, but derived in about seven other Dinarics across Central-Eastern Europe.

CTS10936, CTS11768, and CTS4002 were derived in all eight Dinarics, but ancestral in the nearest related clade (Disles).

The one Dinaric that tested negative for CTS10228 and CTS5966 has ordered Y-DNA67, but no marker results have arrived yet.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?843-Finally-SNPs-that-define-and-split-the-I2a-Dinaric-clade

So there is a definite old link between Balkan I2a and Irish and British I2a. R1b (gaelic) came much later (2500 bc) from Spain and southern France. But they only subdued the whole of Ireland in the early medieval time, so this is why this old culture survived for so long...

Yetos
01-05-13, 19:25
Scotish Mc may cognate with Thracian Muca
muca in Thracian as also in some anatolian is the kids, the seed, the sons.

kamani
01-05-13, 19:55
So there is a definite old link between Balkan I2a and Irish and British I2a.



I2a1b2 = british
(I2a1b3, I2a1b1) = dinaric
so we're talking about completely different subclades. There is no evidence that I2a1b2 got to britain from the balkans. If you want a real balkan-irish connection look at the pre-slavic I2a2b.

Nobody1
01-05-13, 20:06
at Dublin

The Vinca culture is (as you also wrote) Old Europe; meaning Pre-Indo-European

Harald Haarmann - Early Civilization and Literacy in Europe (1995)
The chronology of this area starting about 5300 B.C. is best established at the site of Vinca southeast of Belgrade on the southern bank of the Danube. The so-called Vinca culture emerged from the older layers of the Starcevo culture in the area, and it is indicative of a cultural continuity since the mid-seventh millennium B.C. Archaeology has confirmed that the pre-IndoEuropean population in southeastern Europe possessed a script and that writing was a cultural institution in its own right.

Endre Bojtar - Forward to the Past (1997) [Central European Uni. Press]
Between 4300 and 3500 BC the Indo-Europeans destroyed the Varna, Karanovo, Vinca, Petresti, Lengyel, Tisza, and Danilo-Hvar cultures; then between 3500 and 3000 BC the Cucujeni culture.

Keltic people = Indo-Europeans
Keltic and proto-Keltic cultures =
Unetice -> Tumulus -> Urnfield (proto-keltic) -> Hallstatt (keltic) -> La Tene (keltic)
[All Indo-European cultures]

From Unetice to beginning Hallstatt the time-line is 1800 BC - 750 BC;

So the Vinca culture (5300 BC - 3500 BC / pre-Indo-European) has absolutely nothing to do with Indo-Europeans or the development of the Indo-European Kelts.

The Varna culture (4400 BC - 3900 BC / Black Sea coast) is the earliest Pre-Indo-European culture that had contacts with the Indo-Europeans of the Kurgan steppe culture-complex (caspian-pontic steppes = Indo-European Urheimat).

Thomas H. Greer - A Brief History Of The Western World (2005)
The nomads who had the most far-reaching influence on Europe were a prehistoric people or group of peoples, known today as the Indo-Europeans. Probably originating in the steppes of present-day southern Russia, they spread outward from their homeland over many centuries between 4000 and 1000 BC; as raiders, conquerors and rulers.

British Institute of Archaeology at Ankara - Ancient Anatolia (1998)
increasing evidence for disastrous happenings in Romania and Bulgaria as barbarous, almost certainly Indo-European, peoples moved west massacring and causing panic. The Gumelnitsa-Karanovo VI culture was destroyed.

David W. Anthony - The Horse, the Wheel, and Language (2010) [Princeton Uni.]
Between about 4200 and 3900 BCE more than six hundred tell settlements of the Gumelnita, Karanovo VI and varna cultures were burned and abandoned in the lower danube valley and eastern Bulgaria. Some of their residents dispersed temporarily into smaller villages like the Gumelnita B1 hamlet of Jilava, southwest of Bucharest, with just five to six houses and a single-level cultural deposit. "We are faced with the complete replacement of a culture" the foremost expert on Eneolithic metallurgy E. N. Chernykh said. It was "a catastrophe of colossal scope...a complete cultural caesura" according to the Bulgarian archaeologist H. Todorova

The emergence of the Indo-Europeans in Europe (East Balkan / Black sea coast) was earliest ~4000 BC.

So, again, your link between Vinca (pre-Indo-Europeans) 5300-3500 BC and Keltic people (Indo-Europeans) proto-proper 1800-700 BC is therefor (completely) wrong.
It is however possible that pre-Indo-Europeans from the Balkans settled in Ireland and Britain, but they have nothing to do with the Keltic Indo-Europeans.

The Kelts in Ireland could have been Celt-Iberians from spain; both (and only) Q-Celtic and ever heard of the Míl Espáine.

zanipolo
01-05-13, 20:28
You are not reading properly what i wrote. I am actually saying that Serbs are not Slavs, i am saying that they are Slavicised. All i am saying is that they have preserved a lot of pre Slavic and pre Indo european cultural and linguistic characteristics which become obvious when you compare Serbian and Irish languages.

Can you please stop fighting with someone who actually probably thinks the same as you. Read what i wrote again.

As for Thracians, a lot of cultural links going from Greece lead to Thessaly and from there lead to Thracia, the land of the red heads and indeed one of the descendants (with Illyrians and Celts) of Vinca culture. I am only now covering this period, and would be glad if we could compare the knowledge and understanding of that period. Also if you have any knowledge of Thracian language of if you know anyone who does, it would be great to compare all the common words from Irish and Serbian which i have uncovered so far, with deciphered (and still undeciphered) Thracian words, and see if there are any overlaps.

Zanipolo, You know that i was a pan Slavist. You must understand how hard was for me to accept that we Serbs have more in common, genetically and culturally and linguistically, with germanic and gaelic people than with Russians? But i believe that what i have discovered (accidentally) is very important and needs to be published.

So lets just start again...:)

Then stop using the term proto-slavic, there was many more ethnicity in the balkans before the slavs arrived.

In regards to thracians, well herodous stated, the most populous people in the world ( his world) after the indians where the Thracians. I recently discovered that the cimmerians where related to the thracians. Check them out.

You need to also check the Varna culture ....was it early thracian

zanipolo
01-05-13, 20:31
this is pointless, you're linking people that are not much related. Serbs and Irish are relatively far. Genetically: serbs, bulgarians, romanians, albanians, macedonians, montenegrins, and northern greeks cluster together. This group is just as far from Russia as it is from from Britain. The next closest group is italians. Another close group is the more southern one composed of Sicilians, southern greeks, and Levantines.

As per historians, the serbs where thracians and the Roman army incorporated thracians and used them in Britain, then he has some ties.

dublin
01-05-13, 22:33
To zanipolo


Then stop using the term proto-slavic, there was many more ethnicity in the balkans before the slavs arrived.

Central European and south European Slavs are descendants of the Vinca people, both from the Illyrian Celtic side and from the Skythian Sarmatian side. New layers get added by the old don't dispersal. Otherwise you would not be able to find all these things in Serbian "slavic" culture...


As per historians, the serbs where thracians

I don't agree with this. Serbs were not a nation but a warrior caste, which existed in all the central European nations including Thrakians and in Rome. Serbs only became a nation in medieval time although as i said maybe vincan people called themselves sarbi but i can't and have no interest in proving this. But it is interesting that late medieval territory occupied by Serbs is almost identical to the territory of Vinca culture???


To Nobody



So, again, your link between Vinca (pre-Indo-Europeans) 5300-3500 BC and Keltic people (Indo-Europeans) proto-proper 1800-700 BC is therefor (completely) wrong.
It is however possible that pre-Indo-Europeans from the Balkans settled in Ireland and Britain, but they have nothing to do with the Keltic Indo-Europeans.


Connection exists. Vinca cultural and economic expansion probably started before 3500 bc. Their full scale invasion of the rest of the world started some time after 3500 bc. They reached among other places Greece, Crete, Asia Minor and eventually Egypt. There in Egypt they started great Egyptian civilization which later bore Mynoan civilization which later bore Mycenaean civilization which then came back home and started the proto Celto Illyrian civilization.
They also went east and started Mesopotamian civilizatons, Indian civilization...The Indo Europeans who invaded Europe were just coming back home.


What is important to understand about these Vinca guys, is that they were not a nation, but a military oligarchy, which would impose itself on other people, force their beliefs and culture on them and form something of a mix of local and Vincan culture. They were small in number, but technologically superior and completely bloody minded. So they would conquer a tribe and couple of centuries later effectively dissapear in the sea of their subjects. These tribes, now equipped with new weapons and technology, would have no problem attacking other Vinca conquered tribes, and even Vinca homeland itself...
I actually can prove direct religious link from Vinca (3500 bc) to Delphi (800 bc). This will make a lot of things clearer...If there is a religious and cultural and linguistic continuity between Vinca and Serbs and Irish of today, then there must be some link between Vinca and "the celts"...

zanipolo
01-05-13, 22:45
To zanipolo



Central European and south European Slavs are descendants of the Vinca people, both from the Illyrian Celtic side and from the Skythian Sarmatian side. New layers get added by the old don't dispersal. Otherwise you would not be able to find all these things in Serbian "slavic" culture...



I don't agree with this. Serbs were not a nation but a warrior caste, which existed in all the central European nations including Thrakians and in Rome. Serbs only became a nation in medieval time.



nonsense, the serbs I explained, the bulgarians are turkic people from central asia who settled firstly in the north of the black sea and learnt slavic there, they then went to modern bulgaria.
The croats, even though some of their people say that they are goths from sarmatia are said, by their historians to be northern iranian people, who went via the steppes into modern croatia, again learning slavic in the steppes.
The montengrians are a mix of southern illlyrian, serb/thracian and croats/bosnians.
The slovenians are from slovaks areas and are more related to czechs and poles than other southern slav people.

Serbs where warrior caste plugged out of the triballi thracians for byzantine border armies to combat the dacians. they where assembled to fight the southern Bessi thracians who the byzantines had trouble with, even though before hand the Romans dispersed a lot of these Bessi people to NE-Italy and SE-France.

Nobody1
01-05-13, 23:02
Connection exists.

No they dont,
not Archaeologically, not Anthropologically and not Linguistically.

read my post #11 again.


then came back home and started the proto Celto Illyrian civilization.

Pre-(non)-Indo-Europeans did not turn into Indo-Europeans.

Vinca was pre-Indo-European, Kelts were Indo-European, Illyrians were Indo-Europeans and Indo-Europeans were from the Caspian-Pontic steppes (Urheimat)

read my post #11 again.


What is important to understand about these Vinca guys, is that they were not a nation, but a military oligarchy, which would impose itself on other people, force their beliefs and culture on them and form something of a mix of local and Vincan culture. They were small in number, but technologically superior and completely bloody minded.

from my post #11

Endre Bojtar - Forward to the Past (1997) [Central European Uni. Press]
Between 4300 and 3500 BC the Indo-Europeans destroyed the Varna, Karanovo, Vinca, Petresti, Lengyel, Tisza, and Danilo-Hvar cultures; then between 3500 and 3000 BC the Cucujeni culture.

Thomas H. Greer - A Brief History Of The Western World (2005)
The nomads who had the most far-reaching influence on Europe were a prehistoric people or group of peoples, known today as the Indo-Europeans. Probably originating in the steppes of present-day southern Russia, they spread outward from their homeland over many centuries between 4000 and 1000 BC; as raiders, conquerors and rulers.

seems like those Vinca warriors from the military oligarchy, were simply overrun by the Indo-Europeans from the steppes.

But as i said in my previous post #11, there could have been Pre-Indo-European migrations and contacts; like between Ertebolle and the Danubian-Carpathian culture.

Elements of Vinca could have appeared in Indo-European societies, in the sense that the Indo-Europeans who conquered the Vinca culture area adopted certain elements and mixed with the pre-Indo-European Vinca population.

But that still wouldnt include the Kelts because, the Kelts have a different culture-line:
Unetice -> Tumulus -> Urnfield (proto-keltic) -> Hallstatt (keltic) -> La Tene (keltic) / and all are Indo-European


Serbs and Irish of today, then there must be some link between Vinca and "the celts".

once again;
The Kelts in Ireland could have been Celt-Iberians from Spain; both (and only) Q-Celtic and have you ever heard of the Míl Espáine.
Doubtful that the Serbs also have the Míl Espáine as their folk-story.

dublin
02-05-13, 07:28
Nobody


No they dont, not Archaeologically, not Anthropologically and not Linguistically.

Ok just because you say they don't that doesn't mean they don't. Maybe you just don't know about them. There is proven spread of Vinca artefact from the Balkans from 3500 bc. There is also proven continuity of Vinca culture in Central Europe to this day.
At the moment i have only presented the conclusion. Let me present the evidence that i have found, then criticize. This way we are going nowhere.


once again; The Kelts in Ireland could have been Celt-Iberians from Spain; both (and only) Q-Celtic and have you ever heard of the Míl Espáine. Doubtful that the Serbs also have the Míl Espáine as their folk-story.

I did hear of them. They (or milesians which are probably one and the same) are the carriers of Gaelic culture and R1b gene.
But i am talking about much older cultural layer which is preserved in irish language and culture.

Zanipolo

All these these people you are talking about came to balkans and mixed with the existing population which descends directly from Vincans. They eventually produce today's south Slavs. I am not talking about that at all.

Guys

You saying no and me saying yes makes no sense and leads nowhere. Let me present my finds, it will be much more fun then.

LeBrok
02-05-13, 08:43
Nobody



Ok just because you say they don't that doesn't mean they don't. Maybe you just don't know about them. There is proven spread of Vinca artefact from the Balkans from 3500 bc. There is also proven continuity of Vinca culture in Central Europe to this day.

This is a very faulty logic. Constant occupation of certain land by people doesn't mean continuity of culture, with elements like religion, language, art, musical instruments or everyday items.
Show as one artifact found and dated to 3000BC, and as such is still in use today.

Nobody1
02-05-13, 09:06
Ok just because you say they don't that doesn't mean they don't.

Thats true,
however its not just me saying that its also all the sources i quoted above [post #11] saying that.


There is proven spread of Vinca artefact from the Balkans from 3500 bc. There is also proven continuity of Vinca culture in Central Europe to this day.

its not that difficult to understand;

Harald Haarmann - Early Civilization and Literacy in Europe (1995)
The chronology of this area starting about 5300 B.C. is best established at the site of Vinca southeast of Belgrade on the southern bank of the Danube. The so-called Vinca culture emerged from the older layers of the Starcevo culture in the area, and it is indicative of a cultural continuity since the mid-seventh millennium B.C.

Endre Bojtar - Forward to the Past (1997) [Central European Uni. Press]
Between 4300 and 3500 BC the Indo-Europeans destroyed the Varna, Karanovo, Vinca, Petresti, Lengyel, Tisza, and Danilo-Hvar cultures; then between 3500 and 3000 BC the Cucujeni culture.

The continuity of Starcevo (7th mil BC) -> Vinca (3500 BC) was broken with the emergence of the conquering Indo-Europeans from the steppes.

However:
Elements of Vinca could have appeared in Indo-European societies (central-europe), in the sense that the Indo-Europeans who conquered the Vinca culture area adopted certain elements and mixed with the pre-Indo-European Vinca population.

But thats not a continuity, thats a clear shift/break from Vinca.


But i am talking about much older cultural layer which is preserved in irish language and culture.

You might even be correct about that, but that older cultural layer is def. not the Keltic Indo-Europeans.
Since you link that older cultural layer to Vinca you have to look at Pre-Indo-European populations.

dublin
02-05-13, 16:31
Lebrock


This is a very faulty logic. Constant occupation of certain land by people doesn't mean continuity of culture, with elements like religion, language, art, musical instruments or everyday items.
Show as one artifact found and dated to 3000BC, and as such is still in use today.

Whole towns are currently being excavated in Serbia from Vinca period. According to archaeologists, they are built in the same way and are furnished in the same way as Serbian village houses from 1950s. My grand parents lived in one of those houses when i was a kid and used the same wooden and metal tools and furniture as are today found in vinca houses. The decorations on traditional clothing, ceramics, carpets, furniture are very similar, based on the same geometrical designs and sometimes identical. If you are interested in this you will need to contact people who are currently doing the excavations.
I have found the exact same religious artifacts in vinca and in pre-classical and classical Greece and for which Greeks claim that they do not originate in Greece....

Again, Please criticizing my conclusion without knowing what led me to it, or plainly ignoring my arguments is counter productive for everyone.

Nobody

What i can see from archaeological evidence, Vinca culture has moved out of Balkans during 4th millennium. All great civilizations from Sumer to Egypt appear with exactly the same Vinca type symbols just after Vinca culture disappears from Balkans. This to me is a clear sign of a warrior culture on the move. Vincans at the time of Indo European invasions were so much more technologically advanced, that they were like someone with a machine gun on a early medieval battlefield.


Between 4300 and 3500 BC the Indo-Europeans destroyed the Varna, Karanovo, Vinca, Petresti, Lengyel, Tisza, and Danilo-Hvar cultures; then between 3500 and 3000 BC the Cucujeni culture.

Look at the location of all these cultures, all in the steppes above Danube. If Vincans have heard the news of what was going on in the north, they could have decided that it is time to move.



Elements of Vinca could have appeared in Indo-European societies (central-europe), in the sense that the Indo-Europeans who conquered the Vinca culture area adopted certain elements and mixed with the pre-Indo-EuropeanVinca population.
This probably did happen with some parts of the vinca culture, above danube.


But thats not a continuity, thats a clear shift/break fromVinca.

What exactly then is a continuity? For Indo Europeans to accept some of Vinca cultural traits, they must have kept some Vincans (probably women) alive. Their children are as much Vincans as much they are Indo Europens. I am a Serb and my wife is Irish. What is my son? He is learning both Serbian and Irish and English, he supports both football teams except when they play against each other in which case he goes for Ireland. I believe both Irish and Serbian...

Look

I agree that what i am saying is new and veeeeeeeeery controversial. But i still believe that i have been able to prove the continuity of vinca culture in Europe all the way to today, not just in Serbs and Irish but in all the Europeans. Please let me present my argument, and then if we here agree that what i have found is the oldest and earliest Indo Europen religion that's not bad either.

But i don't thing Kronos belongs to Indo European pantheon...And he is exactly who i found first...

dublin
02-05-13, 16:44
Let me continue

Who are the Irish?

There is something very interesting about the Irish language. You have a lot of words which are pronounced and sometimes even spelled the same, and which have completely different unrelated meanings. This shows that Irish is a composite language. No language, which is not composite, has that characteristic. You have a lot of that in English and everyone knows that this is because English is a composite language. I believe that the same is the case with Irish. Believe or not, I bought the biggest Irish English dictionary I could find, and I read it cover to cover (mad I know). And you have this over and over again. But what you also have is lots of old words which were Gaelicised. You can see this if you compare them with the old Irish versions. Time after time you see the same pattern, where the original word was changed to confirm with the Gaelic language structure. And the last thing that I noticed is that there are many base terms, which should really be defined with one word, but which have multiple words in Irish. Again this is the sign of a composite language.

This is completely in tune with the archaeological evidence, Irish historical records and genetic data.

I read a very good book recently called "The Origins of the Irish" by J. P. Mallory.

James Patrick Mallory is an Irish-American archaeologist and Indo-Europeanist. Mallory is an emeritus professor at Queen's University, Belfast, a member of the Royal Irish Academy and the editor of the Journal of Indo-European Studies and Emania: Bulletin of the Navan Research Group (Belfast).

What does he have to say about who today's Irish are?

Basically no one knows. But what we do know is that there was definitely significant influx from both western Mediterranean and from south Baltic…

There seemed to have been two Irelands:

First one was Ireland of P(F)omorians, Tuatha de Danaan, Fir bolg, Ango Saxons, Pruteni, Vikings which was influenced from south Baltic region.
Second one was the Ireland of Gaelic, Iverni, Milesians, Mil Espain, which was influenced from western Mediterranean region.

I don’t know who the original inhabitants of Ireland were, but I know that for at least last 4500 years, there has been continuous transfer of people, cultures and languages from these two centres into Ireland. Ireland was never one country and one culture, and it still isn’t. There is a drastic difference between south west (Mediterranean) and north east (South Baltic) influenced part of Ireland. There is a drastic difference in cultures in these two parts of Ireland, starting from two different types of megalithic structures which belong to either western Mediterranean or Central European Southern Baltic types.

The Iberians were according to the Irish chronicles the last to invade Ireland. They came and they burned and they destroyed and they plunged Ireland into a dark age. Do we have any evidence if this actually happen and when? We do. In "The Origins of the Irish" J. P. Mallory says that there is a sudden change in archaeological evidence which coincides with the beginning of the Iron Age in Ireland. It coincides with a massive depopulation of Ireland and switch from agriculture to flock herding. It also coincides with massive fortification and building of huge number of ring forts. So Gaels came and brought with them the Iron Age with all its beauties. It took Ireland couple of hundred years to recover.

The fact that the Gaels were at war with the Tuatha, Fomorians and the other central European people is evident from the Irish annals, which were by the way all written by the victors of this great struggle, the Gaels. In these histories the old people (Tuatha, Fomorians, Pruteni) were portrayed as enemies, evil, devious, magicians who should not be trusted, powerful but corrupt and bad. However the kings of Tuatha, Fomorians, Pruteni are credited with bringing all the arts and crafts to Ireland, and are frequently found imbedded in genealogies of the main Gaelic ruling families. Is this an attempt of the invaders to legitimise themselves by claiming relation to the powerful and famous rulers of old? Or was there a genuine intermarrying between these two peoples? Probably both.

The relationship between the Gaels and for instance the Tuatha is also evident from the Irish language:

Tuata - Layman
Tuath - people, tribe, laity
Tuath - lay, rural
Tuath - left, sinister, perverse, evil, malign
Tuathack - king, lord, chieftain
Tutahal - directed against the sun, wrong
Tuathalach - towards left, sinister, awkward, slovenly

Surely if Tuatha were Gaels, Tuath would not have such bad connotations in today's Gaelic Irish language?


The cultural merging of these two Irelands probably started quite early. Both communities were tribal, so there was no real sense of us against them. They formed and dissolved tribal alliances which fought each other and probably consisted of clans from both peoples. Maybe not. But by the fact that they lived side by side they must have communicated, traded, intermarried (stole each other’s wives) which all contributed to language mixing. The all-out war between these two sides only started with arrival of Christianity. They supported the south of Ireland, which turned out be mostly Gaelic, Milesian, Mil Espain side, and they eventually took over most of Ireland and forced their culture and language on everyone else apart from the eastern part of Ireland where thanks to continuous migration from south Baltic we have a continuation of this non Gaelic culture which morphed into Viking and later into Anglo Irish culture.

George Eogan is an Irish Archaeologist with particular interest in the Neolithic and Late Bronze Ages. A first degree at University College Dublin was followed by a doctoral thesis on Irish Late Bronze Age swords at Trinity College Dublin under Frank Mitchell. In the 1950's he worked with P.J. Hartnett on the Neolithic passage tomb at Fourknocks (http://www.knowth.com/fourknocks.htm), and with Sean O Riordain at the Mound of the Hostages on the Hill of Tara (http://www.knowth.com/tara.htm). He was the Director of the Knowth Research Project and excavated at Knowth for more than 40 years as part of his investigation of the Passage Tomb builders in Ireland and Western Europe. Professor Eogan is a native of Nobber, Co. Meath in Ireland and has taught and lectured extensively on Irish archaeology.

Recently he gave this interview to the Irish Times newspaper, after spending his whole life studying the old kingdom of Brega and Bru na Boinne:

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/eoin-butler-s-q-a-1.1066834 (http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/eoin-butler-s-q-a-1.1066834)

Here is one excerpt:


How has the site weathered the past five millennia? Were subsequent inhabitants of the area respectful of it? Did they build over it?
That’s a very interesting question. In fact, between the seventh and 12th centuries AD, the mound at Knowth was the royal residence of the kings of Northern Brega, which occupied roughly the northern half of the modern county of Meath.
When you went down there in 1962, were you the first person to enter the tomb in 5,500 years or had previous generations pottered around in there?
The kings of Northern Brega transformed the site into a protected settlement by digging two ditches. When they were digging, they discovered the entrance to the passage. Some people went in and scratched their names on the stones.
What kind of names did people have in the seventh century?
They weren’t like our names today. One name was Snedta, who was a male individual, we think.
If he was carving his name all over the place, it was definitely a man.
Yes, most likely. The other was Teistennach. They would both have been members of the Northern Brega kingdom.


The point is, that we don’t know who the people were who lived in Brega kingdom in the period 7 - 12 century AD. We know they were different from today’s Irish and had strange names and probably even spoke a non-Gaelic language, but we just don’t know.

If potentially non-Gaelic people had their kingdoms in medieval Ireland, then it is almost certain that they did control even bigger portions of Ireland in more distant past. This is evident from another very good book which I read recently. The book is called “Iverni: A Prehistory of Cork”.

The book is written by Professor William O'Brien. Professor William O'Brien is a graduate of University College Cork where he completed doctoral research in 1987 on the subject of prehistoric copper mining. Prior to his appointment to the Cork chair in 2006, he lectured for 16 years in the Department of Archaeology, NUI Galway. His research interests include the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age in Ireland, early mining and metallurgy in Atlantic Europe, upland archaeology, the study of hillforts and all aspects of monumentality in the later prehistoric period. He has a particular interest in the prehistory of south-west Ireland, where he has conducted numerous research excavations. He has published widely on these topics, including books on his investigation of the Mount Gabriel mines, on wedge tomb landscapes, on his discovery of the Beaker copper mine at Ross Island, Co. Kerry, on early settlement landscapes and upland farming in the Beara Peninsula, and more recently the first general study of the prehistory of the Cork region.

In his book he concludes that there was a definite border and a division between the Ivernian civilization and the rest of Ireland. This border is marked by disappearance of west Mediterranean type megaliths and appearance of Central European type megaliths. In my opinion this pretty much corresponds to the division between the Gaelic and non-Gaelic Ireland. So what was the effect of this cultural division?

I believe that it is this cultural division of Ireland that leads to the situation where not all of the Irish language conforms to the Irish grammar. For instance Irish grammar says that when making compound words, you should always put adjectives after nouns. However there are lots of names in Ireland that do not confirm to that. Place names such as Dubh Linn ("black pool" = Dublin) and Leixlip ("salmon leap") were attributed to the Norse settlers who learned Irish had trouble with putting adjectives after nouns, so they often put them before the noun. This is exactly what happens when you force the new language on subjected population. They pick up the words but keep their own grammar. But this “non Gaelic Irish” language is present in all the old Irish texts, which shows that it predates the Norse, or more precisely the Dano-Slavs, as there were no Norse settlers in the Pale of Ireland only south Baltic ones. For instance Táin Bó Cúailnge, is filled with epithets like finnbennach "white-horned", dóeltenga "beetle-tongued", echbél "horse-lipped", rúadruca "red-blushing", and the like. I know that it wasn't written down until after the Vikings invaded but (a) the original core is thought to be much older and (b) there's precious little else in the work that could be ascribed to Norse influence. Moreover, we find this sort of composition in the earliest attestations of every Indo-European language, even if it later becomes obsolete. (Latin is an excellent example of this.) So I think you might be able to say that these sorts of compounds increased in areas of Norse influence (that's certainly the case in the North of France, for instance), but it's definitely an exaggeration to say that they originate with the Northmen. I however suspect that this could have something to do with the Central and North European influence which arrived to Ireland via south Baltic with of P(F)omorians, Tuatha de Danaan, Fir bolg, Ango Saxons, Pruteni, Vikings .

It seems that these south Baltic people have been living in Ireland and Scotland from at least 4th century AD (the earliest "Viking" type houses were dated from that period, and the latest finds on the crannog in ulster are pushing this to the 2nd century ad). The artefacts and houses are of distinct south Baltic type and not the Norse type. But this influx of central European culture is much older and dates to at least 2500 bc, if we judge by the amber beads discovered in north Cork. And even older if we judge it by the age of central European type stone age structure which first appeared in Central Europe, then in the Baltic and then in Ireland.

For instance, in Ireland you have names like RuaRi which uses word Rua for Red which is very close to Germano Slavic rud, rus and rua and not gaelic derg. In this name you also have adjective before the noun. This might be strange if you believe that all Irish were Gaels. But now that we know that they were not, it becomes something that you would expect to find.
Interestingly enough most toponymes and hydronymes of Celtic origin in central Europe have adjective before the noun. Here are some examples:

Gaelic word for “big” is Mór. (Pronounced as the English word more)
Gaelic word for “river” is Abhainn . (Pronounced “awon” similar to the English word award). Proto celtic word is awa.

In central Europe there are numerous rivers called Morava.

Morava = mor + ava = Mór Abhainn = Mor Awa= big river

Morava is the biggest river in Serbia and also in Czech republic. These rivers gave the name to the territory upper and lower Moravia .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Morava
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morava_(river)

Today in eastern Serbia Vlasi (Vlahi) say “mare” for big. Celts called themselves “Valahi”…

In Ireland there is a river named The Avonmore River (Irish: Abhainn Mór, meaning "big river") which is the same as Mor Ava just using Gaelic grammar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Avonmore


Belgrade was in the distant past called Singi Dun. In Ireland most town names have word “dun” at the beginning like dun laoghaire.

All of this is very interesting, and forces us, I believe, to make a decision who is a Celt and who is a Gael. I believe from everything I have discovered so far that Gaels were not Celts and that Gaelic language is not a Celtic language. I believe that today’s Irish language has a lot of central European Celtic characteristics, but that they did not come from Gaelic, but from the languages of the Tuatha, Fomorians, Pruteni. This is why we have the same words and grammar in continental Europe, but only the words in Ireland.
So who are today the real carriers of Celtic language and Culture: Atlantic Bretons, Germanic and West Slavic nations of central Europe, or Gaelic people in Britain? I believe that it is a tossup…

LeBrok
02-05-13, 17:28
Lebrock



Whole towns are currently being excavated in Serbia from Vinca period. According to archaeologists, they are built in the same way and are furnished in the same way as Serbian village houses from 1950s. My grand parents lived in one of those houses when i was a kid and used the same wooden and metal tools and furniture as are today found in vinca houses. The decorations on traditional clothing, ceramics, carpets, furniture are very similar, based on the same geometrical designs and sometimes identical. If you are interested in this you will need to contact people who are currently doing the excavations.
I have found the exact same religious artifacts in vinca and in pre-classical and classical Greece and for which Greeks claim that they do not originate in Greece....

.

One picture please. Is it too much to ask?

dublin
02-05-13, 18:39
One picture please. Is it too much to ask?

Let me try with this:

Bucranium cult from vinca


In the Early Vinča phase Belo Brdo seems to have developed into a ritual centre for the entire region. The manufacture of various types of cult objects, including 'mushroom amulet' and 'animal head' jewellery made from semi-precious stones, first appeared there and then spread to other Vinča sites. The raw material for these objects often had to be imported from considerable distance, indicating also that from its earliest phase the site was part of large-scale exchange networks.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da-Belo_Brdo#cite_note-Chapman_2000.2C_pp._208-212-9) It is therefore thought that Belo Brdo was a key place in a wider Vinča prestige economy (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Prestige_economy&action=edit&redlink=1), and an abundance of ritual paraphernalia, especially anthropomorphic figurines, is characteristic of the site. Another ritual innovation of Early Vinča phase Belo Brdo was the bucranium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucranium) cult, where the painted skulls of cattle were fixed to the interior of houses. It is speculated that this practice may be linked to the wealth of individual households as measured in cattle.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da-Belo_Brdo#cite_note-Chapman_2000.2C_p._217-8) Later, however, Belo Brdo was to some degree eclipsed by the nearby site of Vršac (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vr%C5%A1ac), which became the centre of the much more widespread exchange of ornaments made from Spondylus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spondylus) shells.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da-Belo_Brdo#cite_note-Chapman_2000.2C_p._215.-10) Subsequently in the Late Vinča phase figurines became less widely circulated, and at the same time more standardised in form (in contrast to the many idiosyncratic styles of the Early Vinča phase). They also began to be inscribed with Vinča symbols (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da_symbols), which perhaps indicates that competition and conflict was arising between different groups within Belo Brdo trying to assert control over the flow of ritual goods.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da-Belo_Brdo#cite_note-Chapman_2000.2C_p._217-8)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da-Belo_Brdo


As previously mentioned, in Old Europe the bull's head and horns as well as rams were stronglyassociated with sanctuaries, temples and shrines. The same symbolism can be found in Anatolia,Minoan islands, and the near East. The bull and the ram where also initmately associated in ancientEgypt with the worship of sun deities. Old European cultures situated this image particularly abovesanctuary entrances, as well within megalithic tombs in the form of horns or hooks sculpted inrelief.

5868


Reconstruction of a sanctuary with a gable roof in its simplest form at Vinča site Kormadin, Serbia, 5th millennium B.C.E. The entrance, as well central part of the sanctuary is dominated by the image of the bull(bucranium). (Ursulescu N. – 2006, p. 86)
In the symbolic language of Old Europe the horns are represented in the abstract with a crescent moon as well, as a U-sign indicating the bucranium. Artifacts associated with the cult of the bull were found at the Neolithic sites of Vučedol (Croatia), Vinča (Serbia), and Butmir (Bosnia) etc. It should therefore come as no surprise that the same religious imagery is often encountered on the stećak monolithic monuments.

5869


Example of a stećak with a pointed top in Brotnice, Konavle region, Croatia. The frontal side of the monolithic monument is decorated with a deity bearing large rams' horns, rosette, and a crescent. The crescent, rosette, and various forms of horn symbolism appear very frequently in almost all geographic areas involved in the stećak phenomenon. In some cases, the crescent has been generally associated with Islam. However, this possibility can be taken into consideration only on Islamic-type stelae found on the Bosnian territory. But also in that case, it should be taken into consideration that the symbol of the star and crescent are a common feature of Sumerian iconography.


5870


Altar (Tophet) representing symbols of the Carthaginian and Phoenician moon goddess Tanit, the consort of the sun god Ba'al.
The given evidence clearly demonstrates that there's a millennia-old inseparable relationship between Old European sanctuaries, stećaks and other similar monuments based on common architectural, artistic and religious concepts. In this context, additional evidence will be presented in order to provide a deeper, better, and richer understanding of the significance and importance of Old European culture and the stećak phenomenon.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucranium

In Serbia bull is still a sacred animal and is used for sacrifices. There are helmets from medieval times found in graves in Serbia with bull horns.

Serbian Prince Lazar had his own coat of arms, which was carved into the outer wall of the church in Hilandar (a helmet with a bull’s horns and an iris as a decoration between horns).

5871

This is just something i found in 5 minutes on the net.

Nobody1
03-05-13, 00:51
at Dublin

I have absolutely nothing against your connection (Ireland-Serbia) theory.
The problem is that you cant connect and Indo-European people (Keltic / Urnfield 1300 BC - La Tene 450 BC) to a Pre-Indo-European culture (Vinca) that ceased to exist ~3500 BC.

There is absolutely no link between the Indo-European Kelts and the pre-Indo-European Vinca culture. as i quoted the sources on post#11.

as for Belo Bredo

Ian Shaw - A Dictionary of Archaeology (2002)
The tell comprised at least nine stratified layers of Vinca material, lying over an earlier layer of Starcevo material (later layers included evidence of Bronze Age Baden and later Iron Age La Tene occupations)

so the Indo-European rift came with the Baden culture; but it gets better:

John Chapman - Fragmentation in Archaeology (2000)
The only Bronze Age occupation was an intensive settlement episode by inhabitants in the Vatin network. This was a relatively rare occurrence, since Vatin tell occupation is poorly attested. The Vinca episode follows abandonment of the tell for some centuries, after which the tell is refocused in the domestic arena....The foundation of a hilltop settlement surrounded by a defensive ditch in the Late Iron Age is as yet poorly recorded (Celic 1984). While it may be argued that the military significance of a prominent hill such as Belo Brdo was the main reason for this Iron Age foundation, it should not be forgotten that many European Iron Age centres were located close to, if not directly on top of, previously significant places (for Celtic oppida, see Murray 1995; for British hillforts, see Sharples 1991).

What this clearly indicates is that not everything from Belo Brdo is Vinca (5300-3500BC) most also comes from the Indo-European Bronze age and after centuries of abandonment from the Indo-European (Keltic) Iron age LaTene.

Again, there is absolutely no link between the Indo-European Kelts and the pre-Indo-European Vinca culture [post#11].

Yetos
03-05-13, 04:21
VARNA NECROPOLIS CULTURE

the Verna Necropolis culture is a significant culture which yet I did not know its gennetic connection, but all scientists agree that is Connected and expanded from mainland Greece to Rudna Glava Serbia and from dinaric alps to crimea and Kastamone.
Vinca culture as also pre IE Mycenean culture belong to the same family (group) that spread Pyramids and megalithic structures all over Eastern parts of Balkans,
still we know little about their gennetics and linguistic, cause (for me) they can be the primitive IE speakers, but they can also spoke a non IE language.

until today I am not that certain 100% if IE in balkans came from North or from East,
yet I admit that there was an arsenic bronze expansion (some call it IE) road that created 3 relative but different cultures in Balkans,
Cotofeni, Vatin, Vucocar, and from them born the cultures we know later.
these last 3 are consider IE and can be connected or not with Irish IE in a possible IE theory, but not Vinca as Vinca culture,

from the above 3 the most interesting is Vucocar culture, can we consider it as component of La Tenne? can we connected with later Italic expand of IE?, if yes then Vucocar can travel west even to Ireland, if not Vucocar died inside Vatin culture.

dublin
03-05-13, 10:20
to nobody

I have absolutely nothing against your connection (Ireland-Serbia) theory.

great.


What this clearly indicates is that not everything from Belo Brdo is Vinca (5300-3500BC) most also comes from the Indo-European Bronze age and after centuries of abandonment from the Indo-European (Keltic) Iron age LaTene.

I never claimed this. I do claim that there was a continuation as well as succession going on. As i said already just because my son has a Serbian father, this doesn't mean he is not Irish as well, as his mother is Irish. Women and cattle were what the "Indo Europeans" always kept, after destroying everything else and killing the men. Women bring up kids, and thus pass on the culture and the language. In "The Origins of the Irish", J. P. Mallory talks about these bands of priests, smiths and warriors which roamed the world in the early copper and bronze age, looking for new lands to take. No women were part of those invasions, they were taken from the conquered people. This is one custom that survived all the way to today through the custom of wife kidnapping and so called "wolf weddings" in the Balkans...

Also there is no way that without cultural continuity we would have both copper, bronze and iron being invented and first industrially produced in the exactly the same spot, in today's Serbia, in the old Vinca land. Metallurgy is such a complex craft that it requires in dept knowledge of many related skills and sciences. For this to be passed on without written teaching material, you need long term tutoring. For this you need continuity. I accept as a possibility that maybe one of early Vinca colonies in the north east have formed the "Indo Europens" (what ever this is, because it is still just a term hotly debated and disputed). I did say that what i found points to them being organized into tribes, wolf packs, knightly orders, fiana, what ever you want to call it. So they went out and formed new tribes. I can accept that one of those tribes then came back to old Vinca land, conquered it and continued where Vinca stopped. But this is still continuity.

If you have any explanation for Vinca teritory being the center of metallurgy for 5000 years except continuity i would like to hear about it.



Again, there is absolutely no link between the Indo-European Kelts and the pre-Indo-European Vinca culture [post#11].

That you know of. This is why i am publishing all this because i believe that i have found that link. So please wait until i present what i have (i can only translate so much so fast) and then maybe you will be as convinced as i am. Or maybe not.

dublin
03-05-13, 10:53
Yetos thanks for joining. I need someone from your part of the world cause i have sooooo much stuff about Old Greece and how it is connected to the Vinca culture and post Vinca Balkan iron cultures. For now i have a question for you. A lot of what i found points to significance of Thessaly as being the link between the north and Greece and particularly to the Volos gulf region in Greece. Do you know what is the oldest written name for that bay or town. I have my suspicion that it could have been IOLCOS or UOLCOS or OLCOS? It all has to do with the wolf culture of Europe which is what i discovered first and which eventually lead me to Vinca. If you follow the wolf it will lead you straight to Vinca...


Volos (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Βόλος) is a coastal port (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port) city (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City) in Thessaly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessaly)...


According to a Byzantine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire) historian of the 14th century, Volos was known as "Golos" (Greek: "Γόλος"). The most widely accepted theory for the derivation of the city's name suggests that Volos is a corruption of the Mycenaean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece)Iolkos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iolkos), which had become distorted through the ages to become "Golkos", later "Golos", and subsequently "Volos". Others contend that the name originates with Folos, who according to myth was a wealthy landlord of the region. It was conquered by Stefan Dusan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Dusan), was king of Serbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia) in 1348 and was managed for 25 years. Volos returned to Byzantine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine) rule in 1373 but was conquered by Ottomans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottomans) in 1393. Volos returned to Byzantine again in 1402 but Ottomans retook it in 1423.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]


Iolcos (also known as Iolkos or Iolcus, Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Ιωλκός) is an ancient city (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City)



It is funny you mention Vukovar culture. It is one of those cultures which is linked to the whole wolf culture thingy. Some even say that Volcae are descendants and got their name after Vucedol culture. This culture is also connected with Danube, which is also the central life line of Vinca culture. We can almost talk about Danube basin cultures starting from Lepenski Vir all the way to today...

dublin
03-05-13, 11:46
While we are here in the vicinity of Belgrade or Singi Dun, i will here repeat what i wrote on another thread here few years ago. At that time i only had a "strong feeling" that there is a link between the Irish and the Serbs.

Irish expression “tar aish” or “tareis” means “after” or “beyond” as in these two sentences:


Ta se deich noimead tar eis a naoi
PRONOUNCED: Taw shay deh no/made tar aish a knee
MEANING: It is ten minutes after nine


Slainte go saol agat,
Bean ar do mhian agat.
Leanbh gach blian agat,
is solas na bhflaitheas tareis antsail seo agat.

roughly pronounced:
Slancha ga sheil agat
Ban ir da vian agat
Toluv gan kis agat
Lanov gach blean agat
Iss solas na vlahas taraish antail sha agat.

"Health for life to you,
A wife of your choice to you,
Land without rent to you,
A child every year to you,
And the light of heaven after this world for you."


Near Belgrade there are two villages, Železnik and Vranic, which both have parts called “taraiš” pronounced “taraish” situated after or beyond the village boundaries. These villages are long and narrow situated on top of wavy hills. Zeleznik in Serbian means “iron town” or “iron place” or “iron works” or “smelting plant”. In medieval chronicles the place is described as once being the major iron and silver processing center. Roman sarcophagus belonging to a Decurion from second century was found near the village. This means that Zeleznik was important enough to have a military garrison stationed in it, probably because it was still an metallurgical center in Roman time. Between Zeleznik and Vranic, on another hill which runs parallel to the other two is a village of Sremcica where the iron ore was mined. Old iron mines were discovered there in the middle of the 20th century...


So next to Singi Dun (20 km) there is an important Iron production area, where people call the area beyond the village land taraish -Tar Eis (beyond), and call the village boundary taraba which could be from "tar abhaile" which means to arrive home and here is what those people call their homes:

Kuća - Kutja = house

This word has no etymology in Slavic languages. There is a proposed etymology stemming from word "Kut" which means angle. In Serbian there is a word Kutija which mean angular container, so Kutja could be angular house. And i agree that the first part of the word kutja comes from kut. But i believe that the ending tja comes from Irish word for a house "teach" pronounced "tjak". So kutja becomes kut tjak - angular rectangular house, as opposed to oval house. Is there any evidence that a word "tjak" or "tja" was or is used in the Balkans for a house? There is. In Dalmatia they still say "idem ća" - "idem tja" = i am going home, i am going away. In Serbian there is a word "čatrlja" which means small house made of daub and wattle.
What is also interesting is that in Serbian a word "dom", which is a word for home also has an interesting etymology. In Serbian it can be broken like this:

dom = do + m = do + me = do + mene = to me, what belongs to me, what is with me, next to me = my things = home.

Let's have a look at Irish:

diom (dom)= to, at
mo = me
diom + mo = diommo = diomo = to me, at me, what belongs to me, what surrounds me

I don't believe that this just a coincidence, because it goes on and on and on like this....More to come :)

ps: Here is a very interesting investigation into original round houses. They look so much like old beehives my grand father used to have...Same principal building technique.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056782155

dublin
03-05-13, 15:51
Hi guys

This is my last post for next ten days. I am away to the land of Serbs and will have no internet access (thank god).

The “Garmans” are coming

Once upon a time, the whole of north-western Europe was crisscrossed with a complex network of wooden roads. These roads were needed in order to cross the boggy and soggy lands of northern Europe, and became a necessity when wheeled carts were invented and introduced into the north of Europe.


The first routes in Ireland were prehistoric trackways, some of which were later developed into roads suited for wheeled vehicles. Many of Ireland's minor roads “may well have had their origin in pre-existing paths and trackways aligned in direct response to the physical environment.” Traces of these evolved roads which developed over very long periods, frequently from tracks of the prehistoric period, are still evident. The routes of such roads usually followed the natural landscape, following the tops of ridges and crossing rivers and streams at fording points.[1]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_roads_in_Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_roads_in_Ireland)


There is almost no evidence that large roads were constructed in Ireland during the Stone Age. However, a very large oval henge enclosure, thought to date from c. 2500 BC (the Neolithic period) may possibly have had an ancient roadway associated with it. The henge was discovered at the Hill of Tara archaeological complex in geophysical surveys carried out between 1999 and 2001. It is unlikely that any roadway from this period would have been used as a transport route.[2][3] Excavations carried out at Edercloon, Co. Longford in advance of road construction discovered a dense "network of wooden trackways and platforms, which were constructed from the Neolithic (c. 4000-c. 2200BC) to the early medieval period (c. AD 400-790)."[4]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_roads_in_Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_roads_in_Ireland)

So the earliest wooden track way in Ireland was discovered next to a henge in Brega area, near Tabor breg. Henge is a central European type megalithic structure. They originate in central Europe in the same area which later became the Celtic heartland.


Prague - Czech archaeologists have uncovered four prehistoric rondel enclosures, two of which are the largest in Europe, within an unprecedented extensive research accompanying the construction of a motorway bypass of Kolin, central Bohemia, chief researcher Radka Sumberova told CTK today.

After examining 40 hectares on land, the experts gathered hundreds of thousands of finds. The most important ones include the four rondel enclosures. The enclosures, of a circle or oval shape and usually of 50 to 200 metres in diameter, appeared in Europe in the Neolithic period. Their inner space was not inhabited. Experts believe they might have served for cult, military or trade purposes. Over 100 rondel enclosures have been uncovered in Europe to date, including several in the Czech Republic.

Two of the enclosures that archaeologists have uncovered near Kolin are 214 and 230 meters in diameter. The former was surrounded by four ditches, the biggest being 4.5m deep and 14m long, Sumberova said. The other two enclosures uncovered within the Kolin research in the past two years are 80 and 75 meters in diameter.

Besides Neolithic finds, the experts uncovered a number of valuable remains of settlements from the Paleolithic period, from the Bronze and Iron Ages, from the Roman era and the early Middle Ages, Sumberova said.

Experts will further examine all finds.


http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-211709704/czech-archaeologists-uncover-europe.html

What are rondel enclosures?


A number of approximately 120–150 Neolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Europe) earthworks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthwork_(archaeology)) enclosures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure_(archaeology)) are known in Central Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe). They are called Kreisgrabenanlagen("circular ditched enclosures") in German, or alternatively as roundels (or "rondels"; German Rondelle; sometimes also "rondeloid", since many are not even approximately circular). They are mostly confined to the Elbe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbe) and Danube (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube) basins, in modern-day Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany),Austria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria), Czech Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Republic), Slovakia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovakia), as well as the adjecent parts of Hungary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungary) and Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland), in a stretch of Central European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe) land some 800 km (500 mi) across.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rondel_enclosure#cite_note-2) They date to the first half of the 5th millennium BC; they are associated with the late Linear Pottery culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Pottery_culture) and its local successors, the Stroke-ornamented ware (Middle Danubian) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroke-ornamented_ware_culture) and Lengyel (Moravian Painted Ware) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lengyel_culture) cultures. The best known and oldest of these Circular Enclosures is the Goseck circle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goseck_circle), constructed c. 4900 BC.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rondel_enclosure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rondel_enclosure)

So these henges, rondel enclosures originate in central Europe, in middle Danube area (Danube again) and Morava area (Morava again). They are a lot more common in Central Europe and predate the henges found in the British Isles. This means that the culture that built these megaliths came from Central Europe via Baltic to British Isles.

Here is an example of one of those Central European henges:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goseck_circle

Here is a link to the page about English henges:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henge

And here is an example from Ireland:

http://www.knowth.com/woodhenge.htm (http://www.knowth.com/woodhenge.htm)

These megalithic structures are linked to Stroke-ornamented ware (Middle Danubian) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroke-ornamented_ware_culture) culture. This culture is a continuation of the Linear pottery culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroke-ornamented_ware_culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroke-ornamented_ware_culture)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Pottery_culture

This Linear pottery culture is through a particular type of bread ovens and houses directly linked to the West Slavic cultures of central Europe of the medieval time:


These so called bread ovens are known from a number of sites in central Europe that are dated from the 7th-12th centuries (Skružny 1963, 1980 ; Vignatiová 1992). A find of this type is usually represented by a hole sunk into a loess soil with the highest vaulting of 40-60 cm, red-burnt walls of 5-10 cm and a grey-burnt bottom, sometimes stone-lined.

3The bottom ground plan is usually of renal, semi-circular up to round shape, east-west oriented.

4From later periods (13 th century) it is documented that slightly modified ovens with an underground heating duct can serve for food-smoking (Skružny 1980). Archaeological finds of bread ovens are usually excavated on the margin of a settled area outside of the houses (Skružny, Vignatiová 1992, p. 90) or they are sunk into the wall of a dwelling (e.g. Breclav-Pohansko : Vignatiová 1992, fig. 3). The ovens outside the dwellings and the site area are known from Neolithic sites in Slovakia : in Pác near Trnava (Kolník 1977) or in Horné Lefantovce (Bánesz 1962). These finds were recently enriched by a new exceptional site where ovens from 11 th-12 th century were excavated in the vicinity (ca. 150 m) of the similar ones from the Late Stone Age (6 th millenium B.C.) belonging to the Linear-Pottery culture people. These ovens were revealed in Borovce, distr. of Piest’any, Slovakia, and the finds have not been published yet. The particular situation of Borovce has offered a chance to compare these finds, similar in types but different in history as well as in culture.

58725873

http://civilisations.revues.org/1799

This again shows cultural continuity in central Europe from the earliest pre Indo European times to today.

Now that we know who invented henges and wooden track ways, let’s get back to the wooden roads:


Wheeled vehicles with solid wooden disc-wheels were introduced into northern Europe around 2000 BC. An example of a disc-wheel, from the Netherlands, was found next to a wooden trackway: "it appears from this evidence that the introduction of disc-wheeled carts into…northern Europe required the invention of roadbuilding about 2000 B.C."[5] An Early Bronze Age trackway, from shortly after 2000 BC, was found at Ballykillen Bog, near Edenderry, Co. Offaly in the 19th century. It may have been designed to carry disc-wheeled vehicles.[5] A one kilometre (0.6 mile) section of a wooden trackway, three feet (approx. 1 metre) wide, was surveyed at Corlona Bog inCo. Leitrim in the 1950s. The trackway was dated to approximately 1500 BC but its narrow width makes it unlikely that it was used by wheeled vehicles.[5] Similar wooden trackways and roads are known from all over Ireland from the Late Bronze Age. One example from Ballyalbanagh, Co. Antrim was seven feet (2 metres) wide and made from oak beams and planks: "its width suggests provision for cart or wagon transport."[5]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_roads_in_Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_roads_in_Ireland)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corlea_Trackway
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_trackway

The best examples of these track ways in Europe are in the south Baltic and in east Ireland. The way they were constructed is so different and superior to the rest of the roads found, that archaeologists have long “suspected” that they could have only been built by the same people. But because history says that there has been no migration from south Baltic to Ireland at the time these roads were built, the possibility that they might have been built by the same people was discarded.

Now if we disregard the official history (again), we can plainly see that these roads were built in Ireland by the immigrants from south Baltic. Not just by the fact that they used the same technique to build them, but by the fact that both were built in the area populated by the people with the same name: Cauci (Chauci). Who are these Cauci (Chauci)?



The Cauci (Καῦκοι) were a people of early Ireland, uniquely documented in Ptolemy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy)'s 2nd-century Geography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_(Ptolemy)), which locates them roughly in the region of modern County Dublin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Dublin) and County Wicklow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Wicklow).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cauci#cite_note-1)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cauci


The Chauci (German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language): Chauken, and identical or similar in other regional modern languages) were an ancient Germanic tribe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples) living in the low-lying region between the Rivers Ems (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ems_(river)) and Elbe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbe), on both sides of the Weser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weser) and ranging as far inland as the upper Weser. Along the coast they lived on artificial hills called terpen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_dwelling_hill), built high enough to remain dry during the highest tide. A dense population of Chauci lived further inland, and they are presumed to have lived in a manner similar to the lives of the other Germanic peoples of the region.
Their ultimate origins are not well understood. In the Germanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples) pre-Migration Period (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_Period) (i.e., before c. 300 AD) the Chauci and the relatedFrisians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisii), Saxons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxons), and Angles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angles) inhabited the Continental (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Continent) European coast from the Zuyder Zee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuiderzee) to south Jutland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jutland).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauci (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauci)

So this is why we can’t have these road builder with the same name be the same people. Because that would mean that Germanic tribes inhabited East Ireland in the 2. Century. What would that do to the story of “Celtic Ireland”?
But that is surely a coincidence. Maybe they just have similar names and are completely different people? Let’s see how far we can stretch this coincidence:

If you look at Ptolemy’s map of Ireland, you see that south from Cauci, you find these tribes: Menapii, Coriodni, Brigantes, Vodiae.

Do we find Menapii anywhere else? We do, right next and below the Chauci in the Rhine region.


The Menapii were a Belgic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgae) tribe of northern Gaul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaul) in pre-Roman and Roman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire) times. Their territory according to Strabo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strabo),Caesar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar) and Ptolemy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy) stretched from the mouth of the Rhine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine) in the north, and southwards along the west of the Schelde (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schelde).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menapii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menapii)

Now interestingly enough they are a “belgic” tribe. So we have a Belbic and Germanic people living in two places next to each other. This opens a big question (again as I am not the first to open it) :
Was there a difference between Belgic (Celtic) tribes and Germanic tribes, or are the Germans just Celts that Romans did not conquer?
In Ireland, just under the Manapii tribe you find Coriondi, who we also find in England and according to names study probably in Gaul as well, and I say probably next to Menapii.


The Coriondi (Κοριονδοί) were a people of early Ireland, referred to in Ptolemy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy)'s 2nd century Geography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_(Ptolemy)) as living in southern Leinster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leinster).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriondi#cite_note-TFOR-1)MacNeill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eoin_MacNeill) identifies a later Irish group, the Coraind, in the Boyne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Boyne) valley, who may be the same people.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriondi#cite_note-EMN-2) Other possibly related names include the Corcu Cuirnd,[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriondi#cite_note-EMN-2) Cuirennrige and Dál Cuirind in early medieval Ireland, and in Britain, the Corionototae, known from an inscription inHexham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexham), Northumberland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northumberland), and Corinion, the Brythonic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brythonic_languages) name for Cirencester (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cirencester), Gloucestershire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloucestershire).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriondi#cite_note-TFOR-1) The element *corio- also occurs in Gaulish personal and tribal names, usually taken to mean an army or troop of warriors [3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriondi#cite_note-3)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriondi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriondi)

Under Coriondi we find Brigantes, who are also found in England, and in the Alps.


The Brigantes were a Celtic tribe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Celtic_tribes) who in pre-Roman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Iron_Age) times controlled the largest section of what would become Northern England (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_England), and a significant part of the Midlands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Midlands). Their kingdom is sometimes called Brigantia, and it was centred in what was later known as Yorkshire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yorkshire). Ptolemy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy) lists the Brigantes also as a tribe in Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland), where they could be found around Wexford (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Wexford),Kilkenny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilkenny) and Waterford (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Waterford)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigantes#cite_note-1) while another probably Celtic tribe named Brigantii is mentioned by Strabo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strabo) as a sub-tribe of theVindelici (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelicia) in the region of the Alps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alps).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigantes#cite_note-2)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigantes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigantes)

Ander Brigantes we find Vodiae or Vodii or Udiae:

http://books.google.ie/books?id=YQQ-AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=Vodii&source=bl&ots=rks_Z3S__M&sig=1MfBa-mPA1BiPXhDFfITBnx6NfA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ga-DUYeUCcOM7QbbpoB4&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Vodii&f=false

What we see is that we have the same Celto-Belgo-Germanic people settling one next to the other in:
1. South Baltic area, the same areas from which Ango-Saxons, and later Dano-Slavic Vikings, would later invade England.
2. North England, the same area that Ango-Saxons, and later Dano-Slavic Vikings, would later invade and settle in England
3. East Ireland, the same area Dano-Slavic Vikings, would later invade and settle in Ireland.

But there are not supposed to have been any Germanic or Ango-Saxon tribes in Ireland. Yet the territory of county Wexford, settled by Menapii is in Gaelic called: “Loch Garman”.

Here is what the Irish have to say about the name Loch Garman.


Wexford lies on the south side of Wexford Harbour (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wexford_Harbour), the estuary of the River Slaney (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Slaney). According to a local legend, the town got its Irish name, Loch Garman, from a young man named Garman Garbh who was drowned on the mudflats at the mouth of the River Slaney by flood waters released by an enchantress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magician_(paranormal)). The resulting loch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loch) or lough (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lough) was thus named, Loch Garman.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wexford (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wexford)

However it is a lot more plausible that the Gaels called the teritory by the name of its inhabitants, the Lock of Garmans (Germans). 19th century English historians thought so.

Ptolemy calls Wexford town by its real name Menppia, the town of Menpii.

Quite interesting are the Vodii as well. In modern Gaelic Irish the word for water is “uisce (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=uisce)” pronounced “ishka”. However I believe that once there was another word for water, which has central European origin: “bwo” or “bwa” or “bwoa”. This word is the route of the word for water (English), wasser (Serman), and (Voda) Slavic. I believe that it is hidden in the following word:

bá (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=b%C3%A1) (bvao) – Bay, great expense of water, flooding (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=english&toLanguage=irish&word=flooding), drowning, immersion, quenching of thirst

The area inhabited by the Vodii, whose name in Serbian would mean water people, is today called Waterford.

There is also in Irish annals a story about an Irish prince of Leinster was exiled to Continental Europe and, befriending the foreign king, he returned with an army of "long spears" which, in Gaelic, was at the origin of the province name of Leinster.


Early Irish historical traditions credited the founding of the Laigin to the legendary High King (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_King_of_Ireland) Labraid Loingsech (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labraid_Loingsech). His grandfather,Lóegaire Lorc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%B3egaire_Lorc), had been overthrown by his own brother, Cobthach Cóel Breg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobthach_C%C3%B3el_Breg), and Labraid forced into exile. After a period of military service on the continent, Labraid returned to Ireland at the head of an army, known as Laigin after the broad blue-grey iron spearheads (láigne) they carried. The Lebor Gabála Érenn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebor_Gab%C3%A1la_%C3%89renn) dates Labraid's accession to 300 BC.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laigin#cite_note-3)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laigin#cite_note-4)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laigin#cite_note-5) Modern historians suggest, on the basis of these traditions and related placenames, that the Laigin were a group of invaders from Gaul or Britain, who arrived no later than the 6th century BC, and were later incorporated into the medieval genealogical scheme which made all the ruling groups of early Ireland descend from Míl Espáine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%ADl_Esp%C3%A1ine). Placenames also suggest they once had a presence in north Munster and in Connacht.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laigin#cite_note-6)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laigin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laigin)

Now what is the name for a spear in in old Germanic languages? The word for spear in Germanic languages is “gar”. Which would mean that Garman is a Gar man which means a Spear man. So back to Lock Garman again, and this time in the country of the spear men we have a town of the spear men.


gar: From Middle English gar, gare, gere, gore, from Old English gār (“spear, dart, javelin, shaft, arrow, weapon, arms”), from Proto-Germanic *gaizaz (“spear, pike, javelin”), from Proto-Indo-European *ǵʰayso- (“pointed stick, spear”), from Proto-Indo-European *ǵʰey- (“to drive, move, fling”). Cognate with West Frisian gear, Dutch geer (“pointed weapon, spear”), German Ger (“spear”), Norwegian geir (“spear”), Icelandic geir (“spear”). Related to gore.
Old Irish has gae "spear"


http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gar (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gar)

Which leads me to an inevitable question: Does German actually just mean a Spearman? And are Germanic tribes just tribes of people armed with Gars, Spears???

But we have completely forgotten the wooden roads.


According to an entry in the Annals of the Four Masters for AD 123, there were five principal highways (Irish: slighe) leading to Tara (Irish: Teamhair) in Early Medieval Ireland. The entry in the Annals claims that these routes were 'discovered' at the birth of Conn of the Hundred Battles:
The night of Conn's birth were discovered five principal roads leading to Teamhair, which were never observed till then. These are their names: Slighe Asail, Slighe Midhluachra, Slighe Cualann, Slighe Mhór, Slighe Dala. Slighe Mhór is that called Eiscir Riada, i.e. the division line of Ireland into two parts, between Conn and Eoghan Mór.[9]
In reality, "the ancient road system (such as it was - there cannot have been a developed national system) fanned out not from Tara but from Dublin.".[7]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_roads_in_Ireland

So the system of wooden roads was leading from and to Dublin, the centre of the Spear people land and also the centre of Cauci land.


Wheeled vehicles with solid wooden disc-wheels were introduced into northern Europe around 2000 BC. An example of a disc-wheel, from the Netherlands, was found next to a wooden trackway: "it appears from this evidence that the introduction of disc-wheeled carts into…northern Europe required the invention of roadbuilding about 2000 B.C."[5] An Early Bronze Age trackway, from shortly after 2000 BC, was found at Ballykillen Bog, near Edenderry, Co. Offaly in the 19th century. It may have been designed to carry disc-wheeled vehicles.[5]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_roads_in_Ireland

So these wooden roads are specifically built for disc wheeled cart traffic.

In Ireland these roads are called “An Tochar" pronounce “tokar”. There is a village in the Wicklow mountains called Roundwood. Its Irish name is Tochar.

http://visitwicklow.ie/towns-villages/roundwood/ (http://visitwicklow.ie/towns-villages/roundwood/)

In Serbian there is a word “toka”, which means something disk like. There is also a verb “tokariti”, which means working material by spinning it and applying force from the side, which produces round, disc objects, like round wooden beams used for making disk cart wheels for which “tochar” roads were made. Was the name for these disc wheels “toka”? And does “tochar” mean a road for disc wheeled carts?

MOESAN
04-05-13, 23:46
[QUOTE=dublin;407657]Let me continue

Who are the Irish?

There is something very interesting about the Irish language. You have a lot of words which are pronounced and sometimes even spelled the same, and which have completely different unrelated meanings. This shows that Irish is a composite language. No language, which is not composite, has that characteristic. You have a lot of that in English and everyone knows that this is because English is a composite language. I believe that the same is the case with Irish. Believe or not, I bought the biggest Irish English dictionary I could find, and I read it cover to cover (mad I know). And you have this over and over again. But what you also have is lots of old words which were Gaelicised. You can see this if you compare them with the old Irish versions. Time after time you see the same pattern, where the original word was changed to confirm with the Gaelic language structure. And the last thing that I noticed is that there are many base terms, which should really be defined with one word, but which have multiple words in Irish. Again this is the sign of a composite language.

This is completely in tune with the archaeological evidence, Irish historical records and genetic data.

I read a very good book recently called "The Origins of the Irish" by J. P. Mallory.

James Patrick Mallory is an Irish-American archaeologist and Indo-Europeanist. Mallory is an emeritus professor at Queen's University, Belfast, a member of the Royal Irish Academy and the editor of the Journal of Indo-European Studies and Emania: Bulletin of the Navan Research Group (Belfast).

What does he have to say about who today's Irish are?

Basically no one knows. But what we do know is that there was definitely significant influx from both western Mediterranean and from south Baltic…

There seemed to have been two Irelands:

First one was Ireland of P(F)omorians, Tuatha de Danaan, Fir bolg, Ango Saxons, Pruteni, Vikings which was influenced from south Baltic region.
Second one was the Ireland of Gaelic, Iverni, Milesians, Mil Espain, which was influenced from western Mediterranean region.

Dublin, I already "fought" against you in other older thread -
your linguistic connexions between irish and serbian are for the most I-E cognates
others answered you too about all that -
you have a very big imagination, and in some way do a hard work to build some theories, and it 's true, your are holding on to it
but even if the 'heterogenous lexic' of a language could be taken as a proof of a sort of 'melting pot' language, you cannot affirm things like different words and meaning having the same or almost the same pronounciation are the proof of a mixed origines language: look ar french:
'chant' >< 'chant' >< 'champ' = "song", "thin side of a thing, book ...", "field" - all french words from latine
- french is rich of same pronounciation words of different meanings, BUT coming from the same stratum (layer):
I agree with you that gaelic has for verbs a big number of diverse roots to express time, mode or things like that: I'm yet trying to find a logical explanation for it (without any result for now, I confess) - what I remarked is that celtic (of today so maybe a pre-celtic resurgence?) languages don't like the verbs conjugaisons and try very often to use periphrasic solutions: BUT IS THAT AN EVIDENT LINK WITH SERBIAN LANGUAGE, ANCIENT OR NEW??? I don't think!
your 'Serbian connexion' in Middle East seems to me very similar to 'albanian connexions' we red before -
and please, be careful when doing wild etymologies wich look as acrobatic loopings - you have the merit of try, but you keep only the elements which confirm your theory and kick away the ones which contradict it, in my opinion -
that said, trying to find under the dominent culture traces of previous so called "faded" cultures is not stupid
so I propose: give me a lists of irish and serbians related words and some precise cultural remnants common to both -
No offense, your serbian words will contribute to the richness of my knowledge - just now I'm comparing Croate and other slavic languages with more known occidental I-E languages, purchasing cognates, for the pleasure - maybe some cognates could be non-I-E? (uneasy to prove)

dublin
13-05-13, 13:22
Dublin, I already "fought" against you in other older thread

Stop fighting then. You are disagreeing with me as a person and not with what i have presented here and that is not nice :)
Take something that i have presented and that i will present, and show me the problem with what i presented.
I am translating my documentation and i really don't have time to waste on this kind of bickering...


I agree with you that gaelic has for verbs a big number of diverse roots to express time, mode or things like that: I'm yet trying to find a logical explanation for it (without any result for now, I confess) - what I remarked is that celtic (of today so maybe a pre-celtic resurgence?) languages don't like the verbs conjugaisons and try very often to use periphrasic solutions: BUT IS THAT AN EVIDENT LINK WITH SERBIAN LANGUAGE, ANCIENT OR NEW??? I don't think!

I didn't say that it was. I just said that it is a sign of a composite language. I did find that one of these linguistic layers is overlapping with serbian to a degree which shows that there existed a long term coexistence of ancestors of Irish and Serbs. The same overlap does not exist with for instance other European languages. Wait until i present the finds and then take it to pieces if you can. I am counting on it and this is why i am presenting this here. I want to validate what i think i have found.


so I propose: give me a lists of irish and serbians related words and some precise cultural remnants common to both -

As i said you will just have to wait. There will be a few in every post, and i am doing so to be able to link them to the historical, religious, ethnological and archaeological data so that the link becomes more evident.

nordicwarbler
13-05-13, 15:07
...Now that we know who invented henges...

Not quite enough proof to make a statement like this, however I find your word associations fascinating.

At one point I also had "German" coming from spear-man also. I now have it meaning "brother man" or man from the land of equals. I must say I'm undecided again.

Another nitpick (sorry)-- I'm not crazy about your using the name "Dano-Slavic Viking". This doesn't jive with what we know about these tribes.

But overall this is a great post. Well researched with much effort spent. Really makes one think...

Yetos
13-05-13, 17:21
Yetos thanks for joining. I need someone from your part of the world cause i have sooooo much stuff about Old Greece and how it is connected to the Vinca culture and post Vinca Balkan iron cultures. For now i have a question for you. A lot of what i found points to significance of Thessaly as being the link between the north and Greece and particularly to the Volos gulf region in Greece. Do you know what is the oldest written name for that bay or town. I have my suspicion that it could have been IOLCOS or UOLCOS or OLCOS? It all has to do with the wolf culture of Europe which is what i discovered first and which eventually lead me to Vinca. If you follow the wolf it will lead you straight to Vinca...

It is funny you mention Vukovar culture. It is one of those cultures which is linked to the whole wolf culture thingy. Some even say that Volcae are descendants and got their name after Vucedol culture. This culture is also connected with Danube, which is also the central life line of Vinca culture. We can almost talk about Danube basin cultures starting from Lepenski Vir all the way to today...

hmm by what i know Volos (Βολος) means bull.

about 'wolf' from what o know ancient world described 2,
the Dacians
the Lycaonians

both share a kind of draco, a sacred religious knife that the 'heads' had.

Vucocar Vatin are important if we support theory that IE were tottaly from North of Black sea, and had nothing to do with minor asia,
Vucocar and Vatin are considered as Mycenean culture birth in that theory,
but strangely around Mycenae we also found some compatible architecture of megalithic structures,
I believe that Vinca megalithic structures, Varna necropolis and many ritual in ancient Greek world are connected to a previous culture, all done by same people, and later came the arsenic bronze raiders, which create using the old infrastucture the Cotofeni the Vatin and the vucocar,

I had gave some evidences of that in previous posts,
Yet always something does not fit,

dublin
14-05-13, 18:44
Yetos, thank you very much for your help. It is a great help.

Nordicwarbler, I use Dano Slavic federation deliberately. I have hundreds of pages of research that proves that such federation existed. It is just not widely publicized. It is off topic but once i come to the end of this i might open it as a new topic. I really don't have time to translate everything at once.

Here is continuation of the story of Cauci - Chauci

The Origin of Anglo – Saxon race

In the 1906 book entitled “Origin of Anglo – Saxon race” Thomas William Shore, author of 'a history of Hampshire,' etc, Honorary secretary London and Middlesex archaeological society; honorary Organising secretary of the Hampshire field club and Archaeological society, gives detailed analysis of the “Anglo Saxons”, and shows us that both Angles and Saxons were just terms used for complex federations of south Baltic Germanic, Norse and West Slavic tribes. He describes the late Iron Age and early medieval northern central Europe as a melting pot where future great nations of Franks, Angles, Saxons, Danes, Norse, were being created from tribal federations of mixed Germanic and Slavic ethnic, linguistic and cultural origin. This is what the Origin of Anglo – Saxon race has to say about the Franks:



The name Frank supplies a good example. This was the name of a great confederation,all the members of it agreeing in calling themselves free.
Hence, instead of assuming migrations (some historically improbable) to account for the Franks of France, the Franks of Franche-comte, and the Franks of Franconia, we may simply suppose them to be Franks of different divisions of the Frank confederation i.e., people of various great tribes united under a common designation. Again, the Angli are grouped with the Varini, not only as neighbouring nations on the east coast of Schleswig, but in the matter of laws under their later names, Angles and Warings. Similarly, we read of Goths and Vandals, of Frisians and Chaucians, of Goths and Burgundians, of Engles and Swaifas, of Franks and Batavians, of Wends and Saxons, of Frisians and Hunsings; and as we read of a Frank confederation, there was practically a Saxon one. In later centuries, under the general name of Danes, we are told by Henry of Huntingdon of Danes and Goths, Norwegians and Swedes, Vandals and Frisians, as the names of those people who desolated England for 230 years. 3 The later Saxon confederation is that which was opposed to Charlemagne, but there was certainly an earlier alliance, or there were common expeditions of Saxons and people of other tribes acting together in the invasion of England under the Saxon name.

One of the people who formed Saxon federation were Chauci. Thomas William Shore says this about Chauci:



We can trace various tribes of ancient Frisians viz., the Hunsings, the Brocmen, the Huntanga, and the Chaucians or Hocings, and others. These people appear all to have been designated at times as Frisians, and at other times by their own special or tribal names. The Chaucians, however, were a populous race, and may be regarded in some respects as a separate nation in close connection with, and never in opposition to, the Frisians. They were seated in the country between the Weser and the Elbe. The name Cuxhaven at the mouth of the Elbe is one which was probably derived from the Chaucians, and has come down to us as that of a place situated in their old country.
Among the tribes or allies of the Frisians the most important was the Chauci or Chaucians. Tacitus men- tions them as living on both sides of the Weser. Those settled between the Weser and the Elbe he called Chauci majores ; and those on the west of the Weser, but higher up the river, Chauci minor es. 2 His description of them is that of a considerable nation. He says that the land from Hessia was under the dominion of, and inhabited by, Chauci. He has left two accounts of them somewhat different, but that in his ' Germania ' is believed to have been written later than that in his ' Annals,' or ' History,' and it may well have been that before writing his later account he had had opportunities of learning more about them and correcting his previous statements. He says that the Chauci never excited wars nor harassed their neighbours, and that they wished to support their grandeur by justice. This description agrees with the character of the Frisians, and may perhaps be taken to refer also to them. The accounts which Tacitus gives of the German people between the Rhine and the Elbe are of more value than that of those beyond the Elbe, for in the former case he wrote from information collected from people who had actually travelled through the countries, which in the latter was probably not the case, as the countries were further removed from the Roman influence.
The question may here suggest itself : What have these Chauci or Chaucians to do with the English settlement ? I see no reason to doubt that they had a considerable share in it. Kemble found near Stade, in the part of ancient Frisia occupied by the Chaucians, and also far up the Weser, certain mortuary urns of a kind that is rare or unknown in other parts of Germany, but known to occur in Suffolk, Warwickshire, Derbyshire, the Isle of Wight, and other parts of England, and the Chaucian name apparently survives in many old English place-names.
Ptolemy's account of these people agrees in regard to their locality with that of Tacitus. He says that they were contiguous to the Frisii, and, like them, extended along the coast, but also further inland. He tells us also that the Frisii lay in front of the Angrivarii, who, as we have seen, were a tribe of the Saxons, for these Angrivarii of the earlier centuries were the same as the Angarians or Engern people of Carlovingian time. Ptolemy says that the Chauci reached to the Elbe. The survival of such a name as Cuxhaven in their old country is significant, the first syllable Cux having come form Chauc. This etymology, which has generally been adopted, is important in reference to the traces of the Chaucians which may be found in England. Here in an ancient Chaucian region a survival of the old tribal or national name exists in the form Cux. In various parts of England where Frisians settled we shall also find it.
The name under which the Chaucians are mentioned in the Sagas is that of Hocings. In Beowulf we read of them under this name. Word for word, says Latham, this word Hoeing is held to be that of Chauci by all, or most, who have written on the subject. Hoeing, however, with its suffix -ing, means not so much a Chaucus as of Chauch blood. 1 The identity of the names is established by the ancient sound of ch being equivalent to that of h. This identification will be of use in endeavouring to unravel the threads in the tangled skein of information which has come down to us relating to the people concerned in the English settlement. The Chauci as a nation have long since disappeared, and were probably absorbed by the Franks of Germany. Some of them, no doubt, migrated to England, where they were absorbed in the Old English race. If we look for traces of them in England through the names by which they were known in their Continental home, we shall discover many parts of the country in which small colonies of them probably settled. As regards their alternative name Hocings, philologists give us several examples of the equivalence of the early ch and h sounds in these tribal or national names. South of the Chauci another great tribe of German people known as the Chatti were situated, from which, according to German philologists, in which others concur, the name Hesse has been derived. The Hessians are the descendants of the ancient Chatti or Hatti. They are mentioned under the names Chattuarii, Attuarii, and Hetware. In the name Attuarii, as Latham has pointed out, the ch sound disappears altogether. Hesse also, says Latham, word for word is Chatti. The Old Frisian ch was equivalent to the Anglo-Saxon h. We may therefore accept the identity of the sounds chauc- and hoc- in the names Chauci and Hocings, and this will be of interest in reference to traces of them in England. At some time during the period of the growth of the Frank confederation the Chaucians assumed the name of Franks, and their name disappeared from history.
Among Domesday names of significance in reference to Frisians of the Chaucian tribe are Cochinges and Cocheha. As in some other counties in which there are traces of Wendish settlers, we find a place-name containing the root sem, probably derived from the old Slavonic word for land. It occurs in the Domesday place-name Semlintun.
The number of places in Sussex whose names bear a resemblance to Frisian names is remarkable. The terminal pronunciation of some of them in -urn and -un also resembles the Frisian. In Friesland we find Dokkum, Workum, Bergum, Akkrum, Wierum, Hallum, Ulrum, Loppersum, Makkum, Bedum, and others of the same kind. In Sussex we find Horsham (locally pronounced Horsum and Hawsom), Hailsham (Helsum), Sedlecombe (Selzcum), Friston (Frissun), Cocking (Cokkun), Lillington (Linkun). 1 The indications pointing to Frisians in this county are sufficient to show that people of this nation must have settled among the South Saxons.
That there were among these Frisians tribal Hunsings and Chaucians is probable from such family names as Friston, Hunston, the Domesday names Cocheha, Cokkefeld, and the numerous similar names, Cuckmere, Cuckfield, Cocking, Cockhais, Cockshut stream, Cokeham (a hamlet of Sompting), and Cooksbridge, north of Lewes. These latter, which may be compared with Cuxhaven in the old country of the Chaucians and similar names in various parts of England, point to family settlements of these tribal people.
Swaefes heale points to Saxons settled in East Berkshire, with Scandians, Wends, and Goths as their neighbours.
In this part of the country we also find the significant name of Cookham, mentioned in an Anglo-Saxon charter as Coccham, in Domesday Book as Cocheham. As already pointed out, a similar name Ceokan-ege occurs in an early charter relating to Battersea. There are many examples which show that the sounds g and k were interchangeable in names of the Anglo-Saxon period. Higher up the valley we find similar names viz., Cuxham, Coxwell, and others. These apparently have a common source, in the tribal name of the Chaucians, the Frisian tribe near the mouth of the Elbe.
The Chaucians, as previously mentioned, were also called Hocings, and both forms of their name are probably met with in place-names in the Thames valley. Hocheston, now part of London, is the Domesday name for Hoxton, and may denote the settlement of a Chaucian. In the eastern part of Berkshire we find separate hundreds mentioned in the Hundred Rolls for Sonning, Bray, Cogham or Cookham, and Windsor. This Cogham hundred of the thirteenth century may be a survival of a more ancient separate local administration, as the hundreds of Bray, Sunninges, and Windsor may be, of the original settlers at these places. Another entry under the name Cocheham occurs in Domesday Book in Burnham hundred in Buckinghamshire, not far from the Berkshire place of this name, so that some of this family or kindred appear to have lived on both sides of the river.

Now what this shows us is that we can find the Cauci, Chauci not only in South Baltic and in Leinster in Ireland, but also among the Anglo Saxons in England. These are the same areas where we later find the Dano Slavic Vikings of Danelaw.

I recommend the book as a must read for anyone who wants to understand the Iron Age and early medieval Baltic and its relationship with British Isles and Ireland. You can find the book here:

http://archive.org/stream/originofanglosax00shoruoft/originofanglosax00shoruoft_djvu.txt

It opened my eyes and showed me the link between the Iron Age invasions and Viking invasions of British Isles. It also shows the extent of intermixing between the Germanic and Slavic people of the South Baltic area.

dublin
14-05-13, 23:56
Cauci, Garmen, Slavs, Celts and wolf people



The Chauci (or Cauci, Chauken, or even Caülci) formed a relatively large Germanic tribe, comparable to the early Frisians in number. By the second century they were located in the far north-western corner of modern Germany, between the lower Rhine and the Elbe. To the south were the Tencteri and Usipetes, to the south-west were the Bructeri and Chamavi, with the coastal Frisii to the west, and the Aviones (Eowan) and Reudingi (Rondings) to the north, across the Elbe.
The early Indo-European Germanic tribes may have originated in southern Scandinavia (modern Sweden). In the early first century AD, Pliny and Strabo describe the Chauci, Cimbri, and Teutones as inhabiting central Denmark, forming a group known as the Ingaevones. ('Ingaevones' itself may be a derivative of the later Angles, who may have been part of the same collective, along with theJutes). Strabo says that the Romans introduced the name 'Germani' because these tribes were the 'authentic Celts'. Alternatively, it is possible that the Germani were allies of the Celts (a theory that is supported by Edward Dawson).
The construction 'Ger-man' breaks down into 'ger' (still used in English as 'gar', the name of a fish) meaning spear, and 'man' which is unchanged in meaning. 'Her-man' is another form of the word. It was likely to have been formed of 'ger' for a spear and 'ker' for an army of spearmen, for which 'k' was softened to an 'h'. Some sources suggest quite wrongly that Germani means 'neighbour' or 'men of the forest'. Instead, the possessors of this name were tough, fierce killers and would not have named themselves anything quite so friendly. The Romans introduced Germani because they consistently heard both forms from the Germans themselves: 'herman' as inHermunduri, and 'german', because these warriors called themselves just that: spearmen. The Heruli and Cherusci names may also derive from or contain this root word for spear, meaning an army (of spears).
The Chauci had settlements both along the coast and further inland, especially along the banks of the Weser, which flowed through the centre of their territory into the North Sea. The coastal Chauci lived on man-made hills called terpen which protected them from the tidal flooding that affected the coast of the Netherlands and Denmark prior to the building of dikes. The Angles to the north were also well known for this form of abode, and they and the Chauci, along with most of the other local Germanic tribes, possessed the same material culture, making it difficult to distinguish between them archaeologically.



http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/BarbarianChauci.htm


Couple of things are interesting to specially underline in the above excerpt:


1. The construction 'Ger-man' breaks down into 'ger' (still used in English as 'gar', the name of a fish) meaning spear, and 'man' which is unchanged in meaning. 'Her-man' is another form of the word. (someone else apart from me thinks that this is possible)
2. Pliny and Strabo describe the Chauci, Cimbri, and Teutones as inhabiting central Denmark, forming a group known as the Ingaevones. ('Ingaevones' itself may be a derivative of the later Angles, who may have been part of the same collective, along with theJutes)
3. Strabo says that the Romans introduced the name 'Germani' because these tribes were the 'authentic Celts'.


So in the south Baltic at the time of Roman invasions we have Garmans desrcribed as Authentic Celts. Is it because the Garmen were the spear men, the military elite of the central European Celtic world? Or alternatively, it is possible that the Germani were allies of the Celts (a theory that is supported by Edward Dawson). Also Chauci are linked to Cimbri which are in turn are linked to the welsh and through name to the slavs.



The origin of the name Cimbri is unknown. One etymology[7] is PIE *tḱim-ro- "inhabitant", from tḱoi-m- "home" (> Eng. home), itself a derivation from tḱei- "live" (> Greekκτίζω, Latin sinō); then, the Germanic *χimbra- finds an exact cognate in Slavic sębrъ "farmer" (> Croatian, Serbian sebar, Russ. sjabër).
Because of the similarity of the names, the Cimbri were at times associated with Cymry, the Welsh name for themselves.[8] However, this word is regularly derived from Celtic *Kombrogi, meaning “compatriots”.[9] Cumry is an evoluted form of the Old Welsh, with an assimilation of [b] to first [m], the second element brogi changed into bro “country” in Modern Welsh. It is hardly conceivable that the Romans would have recorded such a form as Cimbri[10][11] The name has also been related to the word kimme meaning “rim”, i.e. the people of the coast.[12] Finally, since Antiquity, the name has been related to that of the Cimmerians.[13]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbri


In the 1906 book entitled “Origin of Anglo – Saxon race” Thomas William Shore says that Tacitus has left two accounts of Chauci somewhat different. In ' Annals,' and ' History’ he describes them as the wild warriors, see pirates, but in his ' Germania ' he says that the Chauci never excited wars nor harassed their neighbours, and that they wished to support their grandeur by justice. Which one of these two statements is true? I believe the first.



The coastal Chauci have already been noted for their seafaring ability, and it seems they turn this to good use, raiding the coastline of Roman-controlled Gallia Belgica to the south of the Rhine in this year. This is doubtlessly one of many such raids against wealthy imperial targets, many of which are later forgotten or are not recorded.



This is total accord with what we know of Cauci and the rest of the Laigin.They were warriors and mercenaries who in conquered large territory in Ireland in Leinster and Connacht. Their name association with Laighi, the ancient name for Leinster, suggests that this was where they first settled. Eventually, they extended their power to Connacht, and in the process forced the Firbolg tribes into the remoter parts of the province. The remains of many great stone forts built by the Firbolgs in their defense against the Laigain tribes can still be seen in remote areas of western Ireland. Within a few generations the Laigain tribes had established themselves in Connacht, where in County Sligo their descendants include the O'Haras, O'Garas, and others.


It is very very interesting that the Laigin tribes from Connacht are O'Haras and O'Garas, which literally means the people of the spear. It is very interesting that they are being connected to Cruithin (Pruteni) as it is now emerging that Cruithin (Pruteni) are linked to I2a haplogroup and therefore to the central Europe.



Prior to the latter 5th century the overlordship of Leinster was held by the Fir Domnann. They are sometimes cited as a tribe of Firbolgs, usually called Damnonii. The Fir Domnann were claimed to be connected to the Dumnonii tribe who invaded Leinster sometime before the 4th century, and were said to have come from western Caernarvonshire, south of Anglesey, in Wales. Another very early conquering tribe comes down from native tradition as the Gáileóin, who perhaps can be later identifed as the Gailenga of Meath and north county Dublin. Galion and Domnand, alias Laigin, as said in Táin bó Cualnge.
The last of the Dumnonians ruled in the 5th century under the tribal name of Dál Messin Corb. They were ousted by what may be called the original Laigin tribes of the Uí Failge, Uí Bairrche and Uí Enechglaiss. At around the same period the Loígis and Fothairt were mercenary tribes of the Laigin and probably of Cruithin (Pict) origin. The Uí Bairrche are in turn said to be related to the Brigantes tribe of northern Britain, and they ruled southern Leinster from the earliest centuries A.D. until their power was broken by the Uí Cheinnselaig.



http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/leinster.htm


The Cauci of Laigin were famous sea pirates who regularly raided the welsh coast and even established permanent colonies on the Welsh coast. Sea pirates need ships, and to build ships you need good wood, and not any wood, but oak, the traditional ship building wood in south Baltic. Oak was still exclusively used for ship building in the South Baltic in the Viking times, and this is one of the main ways to distinguish Dano Slavic (South Baltic) from Norse Viking ships which were built from pine. If you needed good oak in Ireland in the Iron Age and the early medieval time, there was no better place than the Dublin and Wicklow mountains and the hinterland behind them.


Recently released book “Secrets of the Irish Landscape” published by the University College Cork and RTE, as well as the accompanying tv series examines the history of the Irish Landscape since the last Ice Age until now. The book also celebrates the life of Robert Lloyd Praeger (The Way That I Went) and the Clare Island survey which was completed in 1913 – so this is its centenary year. In the book we are told originally the whole of Ireland was covered by huge oak forests. But by the beginning of the Iron Age most of the south western and central Ireland was totally deforested and in combination with Irish cold and rainy climate turned to wasteland ranging from stone desert of Burren, to vast tracts of bog lands covering central Ireland.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Burren
http://www.ipcc.ie/a-to-z-peatlands/blanket-bogs/


The last big tracts of oak forest remained in the north east of Ireland. So it seems that the oak was the reason why all the South Baltic sea people settled in in the north east of Ireland.



The tribes of Leinster were united by Úgaine Mór (Hugony, the Great), who supposedly built the hill-fort of Dún Ailinne, nearKilcullen, County Kildare. He is a likely, but uncertain candidate as the first historical king of Laigin (Leinster) in the 7th century BC. The kingdom of Laigin was re-founded circa 175/185 AD following a period of civil wars in Ireland by the legendary Cathair Mor. Finn Mac Cool, or Fionn mac Cumhaill, was reputed to have built a stronghold at the Hill of Allen, on the edge of the Bog of Allen, in what was then Leinster.
In the 4th and 5th centuries, after Magnus Maximus left Britain with his legions, leaving a power vacuum, colonists from Laigin settled in North Wales, specifically in Anglesey, Carnarvonshire and Denbighshire. In Wales some of the Leinster-Irish colonists left their name on the Llŷn Peninsula, which derives its name from Laigin. In the 5th century the emerging Uí Néilldynasties from Connacht conquered areas of Westmeath, Meath and Offaly from the Uí Enechglaiss and Uí Failge of the Laigin. Uí Néill Ard Righ attempted to exact the Boroimhe Laighean, or cattle-tribute from the Laigin from that time, in the process becoming their traditional enemies.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leinster


So now we more or less know the position of the the Chauci and other "garmanic" true Celtic tribes in the south Baltic during the late Iron Age and early medieval time. Lets now compare this with the position of West Slavic tribes from the same period:


In the 1906 book entitled “Origin of Anglo – Saxon race” Thomas William Shore describes in detail the position of various Wendish (West Slavic) tribes during the Anglo Saxon invasions and he says that in the in the 6th Century Wilti lived in Frisia where their main stronghold was Wiltaburg or as Franks called it Utreht.



The migration of the Wilte from the shores of the Baltic and the foundation of a colony in the country around Utrecht is certainly historical. Bede mentions it in connection with the mission of Wilbrord. He says : ' The Venerable Wilbrord went from Frisia to Rome, where the Pope gave him the name
of Clement, and sent him back to his bishopric. Pepin gave him a place for his episcopal see in his famous castle, which, in the ancient language of those people, is called Wiltaburg i.e., the town of the Wilti but in the French tongue Utrecht.' 2 Venantius also tells us that the Wileti or Wiltzi, between A.D. 560-600, settled near the city of Utrecht, which from them was called Wilta- burg, and the surrounding country Wiltenia. 3 Such a migration would perhaps be made by land, and some of these Wilte may have gone further.



In the same book we can find this as well:



In the North lived the ancient Slav tribes of Pomerania, Mecklenburg, Brandenburg, and those located on the banks of the Elbe, comprising the Polabians, the Obodrites, the Wiltzi, those known at one time as Rugini, the Lutitzes, and the Northern Sorabians or Serbs…



And also this.



Westward of the Elbe the Slavic Sorabians had certainly pushed their way, before they were finally
checked by Charlemagne and his successors. The German annals of the date A.D. 782 tell us that the Sorabians at that time were seated between the Elbe and the Saale, where place-names of Slavonic origin remain to this day.


Those Wends who were located on the Lower Elbe, near Liineburg and Hamburg, were known as Polabians, through having been seated on or near this river, from po, meaning 'on,' and laba, the Slavic name for the Elbe.


The eastern corner of the former kingdom of Hanover, and especially that in the circuit of Liichow, which even to the present day is called Wendland, was a district west of the Elbe, where the Wends formed a colony, and where the Polabian variety of the Wendish language survived the longest.



The latest Archaeological finds from the Drevanen triangle which around the year 800 ad was defined by Magdeburg in the south, Schezla in the west, Bardowick in the north and river Elbe(Laba) are showing that there existed a continuity between the Longobards and Obodriti (Bodrici). This basically proves that certain “Germanic” tribes from south Baltic known from the Iron Age are in the early medieval time appearing classified as West Slavic tribes under different name. Bardowick actually got its name from Longobardi, or long bearded people. West Slavic Obodrites were also known as long bearded.



Bardowick is one of the oldest cities of north Germany. Its name is first mentioned in 785. AD, when it was the Slavic border town on the Saxon – Slavic border.



http://www.bardowick.de/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-2190/4197_read-24759/




785 The village „Bardunwi” is mentioned for the first in the Annals of Lorsch.
795 Charlemagne stays either in or near Bardowick.
8 – 12th century: The town is located on the border of the territory then occupied by Slavic settlements and is described as a central trading post in the Diedenhofener Capitulary 805, the laws granting the village the right to mint coins, hold markets and collect tarifs.



http://www.eurob.org/index.php/357/4




The first documented 785 already mentioned place Bardowick was during the wars of Charlemagne against the Saxons (772 - 804) several more visits from him.
Already 805 he is called as a trading center. Long-distance trade that time was chiefly in the hands of the Frisians, who buried their dead in Bardowick.



http://www.luene-info.de/lueneburger_geschichte/urgeschichte/frueh.html


Here you can see coins (Denars) minted in the area. Please notice the characteristic Serbian heraldic symbol, the cross with four firesteels.


5879




http://www.bonatiele.nl/FDETDU/frames-midden-mittelalterlichemuenzen11.jahrhundert.html


This confirmed continuity between the Longobards and Obodrites, and all the mentions of the Wendish (West Slavic) tribes in the south Baltic in the Iron Age makes me ask this question:


Is there any possible connection between Irish Cauci, south Baltic Chauci and any West Slavic (Wendish) people? If we look at the territory that Chauci inhabited during Roman invasions, we see that only couple of centuries later, the same territory is inhabited by the West Slavic Wolci (Wilti, Wiltzi), Dervani and Obodriti (Wearing, Warangians).


In the 1906 book entitled “Origin of Anglo – Saxon race” Thomas William Shore says this about Wilti:



…During the time of the Anglo-Saxon period the Slavs in the North of Europe extended as far westward as the Elbe and to places beyond it. On the east bank of that river were the Polabian Wends, and these were apparently a branch of the Wilte or Wiltzi. This name Wiltzi has been derived from the old Slavic word for wolf, wilk, plural wiltzi, and was given to this great tribe from their ferocious courage. The popular name Wolf mark still survives in North-East Germany, near the eastern limit of their territory. These people called themselves Welatibi, a name derived from welot, a giant, and were also known as the Haefeldan, or Men of Havel, from being seated near the river Havel, as mentioned by King Alfred. The inhabitants of the coast near Stralsund, who were called Rugini or Rugians, and who are mentioned by Bede as one of the nations from whom the Anglo-Saxons of his time were known to have derived their origin, 1 must have been included within the general name of the Wends. As these Rugians must have been Wends, the statement of Bede is direct evidence that some of the people of England in his time were known to be of Wendish descent…



Here is one etymology of the name Chauci:


http://webdev.archive.org/stream/Old...cle_2_djvu.txt



...or even to the IE adj. *k'ouk-, cf. Germanic *hauha 'high', cf. Goth, hauhs, hauhis 'high' (for attestations Heidermanns 1993, 285f), or the name of Germanic tribe Chauci (Cauchi, as in Tac. Germ. 35) which seems to mean something like 'tall, big' (cf. also OHG poetic name Hugones for the Ingaevonic Franks, Anglo-Sax. Hugas, or OHG Hugdetrich as 'Frankish Dietrich' in opposite to Ostrogothic Theodoric, cf. Much 1967 3 , 55, 407)...



So in east Frisia, in the exact place where we find Chauci which were described as tall and big, we find Volci, Wilti, who call themselves Welatibi which comes from the word welot which means giant, tall person??? Are Chauci and Wilti just two names for the same people?


Wilti were the same as Lutici (angry, evil) or Veleti (big, giant), German: Wieleten; or Volci (wolf people) Polish: Wieleci, или Wilzi(ans), Wilci, also Wiltzes; Wilzen…Russians say that


All these were the names for the people who manned the western border of the Slavic Germanic, Celtic land of central Europe. My opinion is that these were the spear men of northern Europe, the Gar men, the Germans, the Serbs, the Goths, the military elite, the border guard. Were these people ethnically homogenous? I don’t know but I don't think so. I believe that what united them was the old European religion and military elite tradition. Once Christianity came in this military elide was divided and effectively used against each other.


As I said already, Iron Age and early medieval northern central Europe was a melting pot where future great nations of Franks, Angles, Saxons, Danes, Norse, were being created from tribal federations of mixed Germanic and Slavic ethnic, linguistic and cultural origin.


Very soon one of these multi ethnic federations, the Frankish federation, becomes the dominant power in the region mainly due to the fact that it accepted Christianity as its religion. This very quickly homogenized this tribal confederation into a nation. Soon this new Christian nation was mobilised and sent to the first Christian holy war against the pagan Wends or Slavs in central Europe. What is very interesting is how much the Irish had to do with this forced Christianisation of central Europe. The Irish historians like to call this early medieval Ireland “the land of saints and scholars”, but Ireland in the early medieval times resembled more a huge training camp for religious zealots, who after finishing their “studying” in Irish monasteries, went to the land of the Franks and the surrounding Wendish lands, where they basically spread Christianity by the cross or by the sword, We can almost say that the Irish Christians, created the Frankish empire and future Catholic Europe.


How deep the link between the Irish and the Franks was in the early medieval time we can see from this:





Among other students of high rank was the Frankish prince who afterward became King Dagobert II, who passed his youth in foreign lands as an exile from his country, and whose student days were spent at the school of Slane, in Westmeath. It is a testimony to the widespread reputation of the Irish schools in the seventh century that one of them should have been chosen for the education of this Frankish prince by the lords of his household. On his return home in 670 the young prince was attended by a train of Irish friends, one of whom, St Arbogast, he raised to the see of Strassburg. His successor founded there a monastery for ' Scots ' or Irish in 687. Another of his followers, Maelceadar, an Irish warrior, became a person of distinction at Dagobert's Court. His wife, St Waldetrude, the patroness of Mons, accompanied her husband when he went on a visit to his native land to invite Irish teachers to come over and settle in the Frankish kingdom.



http://www.libraryireland.com/HullHistory/EarlyChristianIreland4.php



During the sixth and seventh centuries the greatest missionary activity was shown by the Scots who dwelt in Ireland. In that country religion was cherished with greater zeal than elsewhere, and learning was fostered for the sake of the Church. But not content with the flourishing state of Christianity in their own island, the most zealous monks often passed over to the continent. There even the nominal Christians were little inclined to follow the precepts of the religion which they professed. Gaul especially attracted the attention of the bold missionaries from Ireland, and the Irish usages became well established in some parts of lie country. Unfortunately almost all the accounts of the missionaries from Ireland have been lost; consequently this biography of Columban is of great value.



http://www.liturgies.net/saints/columban/life.htm


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbanus


Columbanus (the Latinised form of Columbán, meaning the white dove) was born in Leinster in the Kingdom of Meath in present-day Ireland in 543.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Meath



Meath is traditionally said to have been created during the 1st century AD by Tuathal Teachtmhar. The Uí Enechglaiss was an earlydynasty who were kings of the region. An ogham stone found south of Slane suggests they originally may have controlled this area in County Meath. They along with the Uí Failge and Uí Bairrche, belonged to the Laigin, but may also be associated with the Érainn.



This Columban is very interesting character. His name in old Irish apparently means “dove” and has no meaning in modern Irish. Interestingly in Serbian word “golub” means “pigeon” or “dove”. He also comes from the land of the Laigin, the Spear people.
One thing we need to know about the spear people and any other military elite is that they are genetic religious fanatics and will, once converted turn against their own tribe with the same passion with which they were originally protecting it.


Remember that Chauci were also called Καῦκοι , Cauci, Chauken, or even Caülci. This last name is very important.


I recently watched a program on bbc called the wofland:



WOLFLAND - a New RTÉ/BBC Irish language two part documentary that explores our fascination and fear of the Wolf.
There was a time, when over 20,000 wolves roamed Ireland. As super predators they are a natural part of the landscape and ecosystem and are deeply embedded in many of our famous myths and legends.
In this documentary series, Dr. Éamonn Ó Ciardha looks at our complex relationship with the Wolf, taking us on a hair raising journey into Ireland's past, exploring the background to what many of us experience as an instinctive fear of the Wolf or Mac Tíre - son of the land. A land that was in increasing turmoil at the turn of the 16th century as plantation settlers began to arrive. For them, the wolf became a fearsome symbol of this wild and dangerous land.
Large-scale farming and deforestation saw the wolf rapidly losing its hunting and breeding grounds. But war, rebellion and fighting between settlers and a growing number of Irish rebels provided rich pickings for wolves - preying on livestock and scavenging on the fallen. The terrified settlers called their new home "Wolfland".



http://www.rte.ie/tv/programmes/wolfland.html




Today the word for wolf in Irish is Mac Tíre which means son of the land. The old Irish word for wolf is olc, which today means evil. I actually believe that the word was originally "volk" but Gaelic has no "v" so it became oulk or olk. But there is another old Irish word for wolf faolchú, which is pronounced as fwilku fwolku. Who could have brought this word for wolf to Ireland as it is obvious that it wasn't the Gaels? I can think of Geramnic tribes with their wolf but we have even closer match with West Slavic volk, vilk, vlk...


So now we have:


1. Tribe Chauci in south Baltic
2. Tribe Vilti, Volci in the same place at the same time.
3. Tribe Cauci in Ireland at the same time
4. Word wilk, wolk, wilti, vilci, volci, olk, faolchú


And finally here is the question: is Cauci (Chauci, Καῦκοι), just bastardized Caülci, Kavulci, Kavuci, Kavukovi, Ka Vlci, Ka Vuci, Ka Vukovi, Kao Vuci, Kao Vukovi which means like wolfs, wolf like, wolf people, warriors wearing wolf skins???


Wofland gives us a possible proof that this could be so. It tells us that Ireland has long tradition of wolf people of strange tales of warewolfs and shape shifters who can turn from man to wolf and vice versa, and of strange wolf bands of young warriors who lived like wolves. And in the early medieval time that is almost exclusively tradition attributed to the Slavs. But more about this later. But just to say for the end that this silly little question led me straight to the wolf tribes of Europe and eventually to Vinca....

dublin
15-05-13, 14:20
Celtic or Slavic

I have been talking a lot about the Germanic - Slavic (and soon we will see maybe even Baltic) people living in Ireland in late Iron age and early Medieval time. I am planning to talk about it some more because i have two more important but mysterious people to cover: Fomorians and Pruteni.

But before i continue, i just want to give my reason why i am so concentrated on this at the moment:

The reason is this:


The Celtic or Keltic languages (usually pronounced (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronunciation_of_Celtic) /ˈkɛltɪk/ but sometimes /ˈsɛltɪk/)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages#cite_note-1) are descended from Proto-Celtic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Celtic), or "Common Celtic"; a branch of the greater Indo-European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages) language family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_family). The term "Celtic" was first used to describe this language group byEdward Lhuyd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Lhuyd) in 1707.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages#cite_note-2)
Celtic languages are most commonly spoken on the north-western edge of Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe), notably in Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland), Scotland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland), Wales (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales), Brittany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittany),Cornwall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornwall), and the Isle of Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Man), and can be found spoken on Cape Breton Island (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Breton_Island). There are also a substantial number of Welsh speakers in the Patagonia area of Argentina. Some people speak Celtic languages in the other Celtic diaspora (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_diaspora_(disambiguation)) areas of the United States,[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages#cite_note-mla-3)Canada, Australia,[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages#cite_note-4) and New Zealand.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages#cite_note-5) In all these areas, the Celtic languages are now only spoken by minorities though there are continuing efforts at revitalization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_revitalization).
During the 1st millennium BC, they were spoken across Europe, in the Iberian Peninsula, from the Atlantic and North Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea) coastlines, up the Rhine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine) valley and down the Danube (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube) valley to the Black Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea), the Upper Balkan Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans), and in Galatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia) in Asia Minor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Minor). The spread to Cape Breton and Patagonia occurred in modern times. Celtic languages, particularly Irish, were spoken in Australia before federation in 1901 and are still used there to some extent.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages#cite_note-6)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages

Celtic language is the language once spoken in the whole of Europe, but today it is only spoken in Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland), Scotland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland), Wales (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales), Brittany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittany),Cornwall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornwall), and the Isle of Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Man).

So here we come to the fundamental problem: Was Proto Celtic language deduced from today's "Celtic" languages like Gaelic, Welsh, Manx, Breton? If we look at the official history of the Ireland, we see this isolated Celtic land which for 1000 years only had influence from Celtic Gaul and Celtic Iberia. The first non “Celtic” people to arrive to Ireland were the Vikings in the 9th century, but they were too late to influence the creation of the “Celtic” Gaelic language. So we have absolute right to say that Irish is a Celtic language.

But we are seeing how huge the influence of the central European and South Baltic Germanic Slavic culture was in the British Isles, the "Celtic" heartland much earlier than the 9th century and the Vikings. So this then presents a problem: is this Proto Celtic language which we have found in the indigenous languages in the British Isles, just a small part of the real old European Celtic language? Namely is this “Celtic” part found in “Celtic” languages just the part of the real Celtic language, which Gaels and the Welsh, and Bretons incorporated into their languages while mixing with the real Celts of Central Europe, Slavs, Balts and Germans, who are still in effect speaking the Celtic language today in the same area of Europe where it was always spoken? Is it time to rethink the whole “Celtic languages” thing? Are central European, mainly Slavic languages but also Germanic and Baltic languages, the real Celtic languages?

If this is the case, then all documented common words in Celtic and Slavic languages should not surprise you anymore.

Here is just an example of what I am talking about:


Pavel Serafimov

CELTO-SLAVIC SIMILARITIES

Abstract

Combined analysis of languages, historical sources, burial types, architecture and religion reveals that a part of the Gauls called also Celts were in fact a Western Slavic branch consisting of different tribes who inhabited the lands of ancient France, Austria, Switzerland, Hungary, etc. These people were responsible for the spread of iron in Central and Western Europe and were also the ones to whom the ethnonym Celts was applied for the first time. Unless other ancient testimonies or new archaeological discoveries appear, it should be admitted that Slavic tribes inhabited not only Eastern, but also Central and Western Europe in the deep antiquity and were strong, highly developed people, who influenced many others. Novel evidence of Slavic presence in Western Europe and British Isles is presented in this paper. Scientific method demands that the opposing arguments and theories have to be considered. Counter evidence and counter arguments are welcome….


http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik06/serafimov_celtoslav06.pdf

Or this:


Pavel Serafimov, Giancarlo Tomezzoli

Slavic influences in the Ancient Gaul

Introduction

It is common opinion between the scholars and the people that the ancient gauls formed a compact set of Celtic tribes speaking the gaulish language or similar varieties of the same one [1]. The gaulish language also called Classical Celtic had practically nothing in common with Insular Celtic; it was very close to the Italic group of tongues and had grammatical forms similar to those of the Proto-Indo-European model [1]. however, the publication in a recent past of relevant works has animated the debate about the slavic cultural and religious influences and about the slavic presence in the ancient gaul. With this paper, after having reviewed said relevant works, we analyze in more details some origins of these influences and presence so as to introduce some more arguments and evidences into the debate.


http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik10/seraf_slavic_gaul.pdf (http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik10/seraf_slavic_gaul.pdf)

Without knowing how strong and how long the influence of the Central European cultures which reached Ireland and Britain via South Baltic was, the above claims would have been absurd. Now they are to be expected.

So I will continue to talk about the Baltic Irish for few more days. I will continue with Pruteni, the Lake people…

inver2b1
15-05-13, 21:02
Sounds a bit like a thread on the linguitics forum.

inver2b1
15-05-13, 21:03
This one.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26549-Celtic-Serbian-parallels

LeBrok
16-05-13, 04:54
I didn't have time to go through new Dublin fantasies. I'm sure it will be closed too, unless somehow i'm positively surprised.

nordicwarbler
16-05-13, 06:57
I didn't have time to go through new Dublin fantasies. I'm sure it will be closed too, unless somehow i'm positively surprised.

The Chauci are one of my favorite tribes so I have a fairly deep knowledge of their accomplishments/associations... Dublin's comments match up with what I know. Plus he seems to be quoting valid sources throughout. There may be an incredible amount of coffee fueling these posts, but they are well researched.

dublin
16-05-13, 11:20
Inver

Yes id does to the point. I contributed to that thread long time ago. But lots of new material came to my attention since then. This is a lot more complex then i even suspected at that time, as i already said before....

nordicwarbler thanks for this comment. its 20 years of research that went into this....

lebrock

maybe if you read what i write you might change your mind.

Anyway I am not going to your threads and demand them to be closed just because i don't agree with what is being said there.

ElHorsto
16-05-13, 12:11
I recommend the book as a must read for anyone who wants to understand the Iron Age and early medieval Baltic and its relationship with British Isles and Ireland. You can find the book here:

http://archive.org/stream/originofanglosax00shoruoft/originofanglosax00shoruoft_djvu.txt

It opened my eyes and showed me the link between the Iron Age invasions and Viking invasions of British Isles. It also shows the extent of intermixing between the Germanic and Slavic people of the South Baltic area.

The impact of the wends, obotrites, polabians,.. on the saxons is indeed something worth to investigate more. Polabian was still spoken in the 18th century in a part of east lower-saxony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendland), quite far away from Poland. It is considered to be the western-most slavic-speaking land. In Wendtland there aren't any obvious slavic hints, except the many village and town names of course. The people there as well as to the east look very commonly north-german too. Historically it is recorded which parts were saxon lands and which ones were conquered slavic lands. What is new from this book is that not only "original" west saxons came to britain, but also those from former slavic lands and that some slavs made it to Utrecht in Holland. But I've read only a few pages yet. There is not much R1a in England at least, which is also surprising given that there is 30% R1a in scandinavia and north-germany.
The genetic evidence of assimilated slavs in north-germany is still weak (one publication estimates 25% of the male lineages based on surnames and YDNA), which might be either due to natural genetic similarity between germanics and slavs (R1a), or due to slavicised east-germanic tribes.

zanipolo
17-05-13, 21:45
The impact of the wends, obotrites, polabians,.. on the saxons is indeed something worth to investigate more. Polabian was still spoken in the 18th century in a part of east lower-saxony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendland), quite far away from Poland. It is considered to be the western-most slavic-speaking land. In Wendtland there aren't any obvious slavic hints, except the many village and town names of course. The people there as well as to the east look very commonly north-german too. Historically it is recorded which parts were saxon lands and which ones were conquered slavic lands. What is new from this book is that not only "original" west saxons came to britain, but also those from former slavic lands and that some slavs made it to Utrecht in Holland. But I've read only a few pages yet. There is not much R1a in England at least, which is also surprising given that there is 30% R1a in scandinavia and north-germany.
The genetic evidence of assimilated slavs in north-germany is still weak (one publication estimates 25% of the male lineages based on surnames and YDNA), which might be either due to natural genetic similarity between germanics and slavs (R1a), or due to slavicised east-germanic tribes.

but wend is associated to mean foreigner ie non-germanic people in the ancient times. It was also used to name baltic people as Romans did not know any balts as a tribal name only finnoi , sarmatians etc

the Vindelici people of bavaria where named because of the Vindo river ( now known as wertach ) and the licus ( now as lech river). vindo was wend - because they where not germanic

ElHorsto
17-05-13, 21:51
But this is what I'm saying. It is called Wendland because the people there spoke a foreign (i.e. slavic) language.


but wend is associated to mean foreigner ie non-germanic people in the ancient times. It was also used to name baltic people as Romans did not know any balts as a tribal name only finnoi , sarmatians etc

the Vindelici people of bavaria where named because of the Vindo river ( now known as wertach ) and the licus ( now as lech river). vindo was wend - because they where not germanic

MOESAN
18-05-13, 00:40
I find this thread very confuse if well fed
some points, for me:
There is no obstacle for a pre I-E culture left some cultural and linguistic fossils
some fossils traces can be found among two different cultures having crossed or settled the same region in past
this shared traces by themselves don' t prove in any way "genetical" link between the cultures sharing them
so, on the basis of my readings:
I see no evident particuliar link between Ireland and Serbia, on or without a I-E link - as a whole, the serbian language doesn' t show numerous common words with irish, gaelic or not
I found very confusing the term DUBLIN uses frequently : "South Baltic", mixing central europe ancient cultures with more northern and maritime cultures
is explications about the derived words from 'tuatha' (breton, welsh: 'tud' : "people", previously "race", "descendance", germanic 'theod' or something close to it) considered by him as scornful and the link he does with the Tuatha De Danan are of uncertain value for I think because 1) 'pobl', 'people'='folk', are words very often associated from one part to to the honoured nation and from another part to basic people, poor people, peasantry but also workers - by the ruling upper classes - it 's the same i french, where 'peuple' is an honorable word but where 'populaire' and 'populiste' are words of disdain, as 'vulgo' (french 'vulgaire': bad educated) in latin - Dublin could object: "why the term 'tuatha' was not used for other people?" it 's true; but other subalterne or inferior tribes in Ireland had other names, some in 'Fir ...' ("the men"), why not 'tuatha'? sothis argument is not stupid but it is weak, I think -
on the other hand, De Danan could evocate a population or tribe coming from the Danaw river or even from the Balkans
- helas, this statement opens the door to a lot of possible hypothesis involving I-E or not I-E tribes...
that a pre-gaelic population or mix of populations should have inhabited Ireland and kept lands for a long time is not new:
more than one surely: the first bringers of Neolithic in Ireland are considered as come there about the 4500 BC coming from SW Scotland-NW ENgland (Cumbria) - and the Food Vessels men seemed coming from Spain, at Calcholithical time, bringing 'dinaric' phenotypes and taking the reverse way, going after to Scotland and England - they met surely some Bell Beakers coming fromS-England too, even if these last ones left a light footprint there...
Who were the Gaels and when they came???

LeBrok
18-05-13, 05:05
I find this thread very confuse if well fed
some points, for me:

I see no evident particuliar link between Ireland and Serbia, on or without a I-E link - as a whole, the serbian language doesn' t show ?
Exactly my point. Also in some other thread I couldn't find any connection between Slavs and Vikings who invaded Ireland Not even one Slavic name recorded at that time (many Germanic names though), neither valid archeological connection.

dublin
18-05-13, 22:45
Hi again. I know I said the last time that i will talk about the Pruteni, but i decided to continue talking abut our friends Laigin and to show you how deep the rabbit hole actually is. I hope you enjoy the ride, and i hope you will begin to see where i am going to.


Long beards, long ears, long blades and long spears


The legendary forefather of the Laigin was Labraid Loingsech.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labraid_Loingsech



Labraid Loingsech (English: the exile, mariner), also known as Labraid Lorc, son of Ailill Áine, son of Lóegaire Lorc, was, according to medieval Irish legend and historical tradition, a High King of Ireland. He was considered the ancestor of the Laigin, who gave their name to the province of Leinster.[1] An early dynastic poem calls him "a god among the gods", suggesting he may once have been an ancestor-deity of the Laigin.[2]



In one of the histories, told by Geoffrey Keating it is said that:



…after spending some time with Scoriath in Munster, Labraid goes to the continent, where he gains great fame as the leader of the bodyguard of the king of France, who is related to Labraid's grandmother, Cessair Chrothach (who was the daughter of a king of the Franks according to the Lebor Gabála). Moriath, hearing of his great deeds, falls in love with him from a distance. She writes a love song for him, and sends Craiftine to Gaul to sing it to him. Labraid is delighted with the song, and decides to return to Ireland and reclaim his territory. The king of France equips him with ships and 2,200 men. His followers are known as Laigin after the broad blue-grey iron spearheads (láigne) they use.[4] T. F. O'Rahilly attempted to explain the confusion over the location of Labraid's exile by suggesting that the name Fir Morca, a people located in Munster in theBook of Leinster account, was a corruption of Armorica in north-west France.[1]…



I have to ask here is France (land of Franks) just later change and addition from the early medieval time when, as we have seen, the relation between the Gaels and the Franks was at its peak? Was the land from which the Labraid brings his garmans or spear men further up north, somewhere around the mouth of river Elbe or beyond? Was the land of his exile the same land from which the Laigin (Cauci, Menapi…) came in the first place? I a king goes into exile it is usually to the domains of his cousins where he can enjoy protection? And if Labraid went to Polabia (Slavic name for the area “po labi” or along the river Elbe) or beyond river Elbe (Laba), is it possible that “Fir Morca” is actually “For Morka” “Fomorka” the land of Fomori which is located beyond the river Elbe?


Here is what Wiki has to say about Fomorians:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians



The race are known as the Fomoire or Fomoiri, names that are often Anglicised as Fomorians, Fomors or Fomori. Later in Middle Irish they are also known as the Fomórai?. The etymology of the name Fomoire (plural) has been cause for some debate. Medieval Irish scholars thought the name contained the element muire "sea", owing to their reputation as sea pirates.[1] In 1888, John Rhys was the first to suggest that it is an Old Irish word composed of fo "under/below" and muire "sea", concluding that it may refer to beings whose (original) habitat is under the sea.[2] Observing two instances of the early genitive form fomra, Kuno Meyer arrives at the same etymology, but takes it to refer to land by the sea.[3]Whitley Stokes and Rudolf Thurneysen, on the other hand, prefer to connect the second element *mor with a supposed Old English cognate mara "mare" (which survives today in the English word night-mare).[4][5] Building on these hypotheses, Marie-Louise Sjoestedt interprets the combination of fo and the root *mor as a compound meaning "inferior" or "latent demons".[6]



But who were these Fomorians? Some people say that they are just another name for Vikings or see pirates. This is actually quite close to the truth if by Vikings and see pirates we consider see people who came from the north east, more precisely from the south Baltic. Fomorians are indeed the south Baltic people, Western Slavs, Danes, Angles, Saxons, Balts. But they came to Ireland much earlier than the Vikings, probably even before the Iron Age. They lived in Eastern and Northern Ireland and brought culture, old gods like Crom Dubh, arts, crafts...They were so important that all the most important clans claim to have some descent from Fomory. Irish historians agree that their name is not Gaelic and that means probably people of the see, or people who came from across the see, or see pirates or people who live “fo muire” at the coast or as you would say it in Western Slavic “po morje”. Where could have been that land across the see famous for its see pirates whose name sounds like “fo muire” or “po morje”, and which is also known for its culture and technology and wood structure building during bronze and Iron Age?


There is a country like that. It is south Baltic part of Germany, called Pomerania or Pomorje (Land by the see, the coast) as it was known to the people who gave it its name and who called themselves Pomorjani, Pomori, Pomorci (see people, coast people). These Wilti, Obodrites, Lugiani and other West Slavic or Wendish people were famous see pirates and traders well into the late medieval time. They were part of the Angles and Saxons federations during Anglo Saxon invasions and part of the Danish federation during the Viking invasions.


So did Labraid go back to “the old country” until the storm blows over? Quite possible.


It seems that the mouth of river Elbe was a very popular place during the Iron Age. Apart from Cauci, Volci, Pomorjani we find there another interesting tribe: “Longobardi”. Who were these Longobards, what does their name mean and why are they important for understanding of Laigin?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards



The fullest account of Lombard origins, history, and practices is the Historia Langobardorum (History of the Lombards) of Paul the Deacon, written in the 8th century. Paul's chief source for Lombard origins, however, is the 7th-century Origo Gentis Langobardorum(Origin of the Lombard People).
The Origo Gentis Langobardorum tells the story of a small tribe called the Winnili[1] dwelling in southern Scandinavia[2] (Scadanan) (theCodex Gothanus writes that the Winnili first dwelt near a river called Vindilicus on the extreme boundary of Gaul).[3] The Winnili were split into three groups and one part left their native land to seek foreign fields. The reason for the exodus was probably overpopulation.[4] The departing people were led by the brothers Ybor and Aio and their mother Gambara[5] and arrived in the lands of Scoringa, perhaps the Baltic coast[6] or the Bardengau on the banks of the Elbe.[7] Scoringa was ruled by the Vandals and their chieftains, the brothers Ambri and Assi, who granted the Winnili a choice between tribute or war.
The Winnili were young and brave and refused to pay tribute, saying "It is better to maintain liberty by arms than to stain it by the payment of tribute."[8] The Vandals prepared for war and consulted Godan (the god Odin[2]), who answered that he would give the victory to those whom he would see first at sunrise.[9] The Winnili were fewer in number[8] and Gambara sought help from Frea (the goddessFrigg[2]), who advised that all Winnili women should tie their hair in front of their faces like beards and march in line with their husbands. So Godan spotted the Winnili first and asked, "Who are these long-beards?," and Frea replied, "My lord, thou hast given them the name, now give them also the victory."[10] From that moment onwards, the Winnili were known as the Longbeards (Latinised as Langobardi, Italianised as Lombardi, and Anglicized as Lombards).



So Langobardi were not calling themselves Langobardi. It was the name given to them by the Norse. They called themselves Winnili unless even this was a name given to them by others. Langobardi means the ones with long beards (dugobradi in Serbian). These long bearded people were great warriors, and really liked the fight and battle. They eventually lead the tribal federation which invaded Italy and established the Lombard kingdom of Italy.



In the 1st century AD Longobardi formed part of the Suebi, in northwestern Germany. By the end of the 5th century they had moved into the area roughly coinciding with modern Austria north of the Danube river, where they subdued the Herulsand later fought frequent wars with the Gepids. The Lombard king Audoin defeated the Gepid leader Thurisind in 551 or 552; his successor Alboin eventually destroyed the Gepids at the Battle of Asfeld in 567.
Following this victory, Alboin decided to lead his people to Italy, which had become severely depopulated after the longGothic War (535–554) between the Byzantine Empire and the Ostrogothic Kingdom there. The Lombards were joined by numerous Saxons, Heruls, Gepids, Bulgars, Thuringians, and Ostrogoths, and their invasion of Italy was almost unopposed. By late 569 they had conquered all the principal cities north of the Po River except Pavia, which fell in 572. At the same time, they occupied areas in central and southern Italy. They established a Lombard Kingdom in Italy, later named Regnum Italicum ("Kingdom of Italy"), which reached its zenith under the 8th-century ruler Liutprand. In 774, the Kingdom was conquered by the Frankish King Charlemagne and integrated into his Empire. However, Lombard nobles continued to rule parts of the Italian peninsula well into the 11th century when they were conquered by the Normans and added to their County of Sicily. Their legacy is apparent in the regional appellation, Lombardy.



Romans say that Longobards in the first century AD lived next door to Chauci.



The first mention of the Lombards occurred between AD 9 and 16, by the Roman court historian Velleius Paterculus, who accompanied a Roman expedition as prefect of the cavalry.[17] Paterculus says that under Tiberius the "power of the Langobardi was broken, a race surpassing even the Germans in savagery".[18]
From the combined testimony of Strabo (AD 20) and Tacitus (AD 117), the Lombards dwelt near the mouth of the Elbe shortly after the beginning of the Christian era, next to the Chauci.[17] Strabo states that the Lombards dwelt on both sides of the Elbe.[19] He treats them as a branch of the Suebi.



Now I have a question: what is the chance that such warrior tribe would not join its neighbours Chauci and Menapii in an invasion of England and Ireland?


Back to the origin of the Anglo Saxon race:



The customs relating to the widow's dower that prevailed in South Westmoreland and North Lancashire are
varied. In the Barony of Kendal the widow of a customary tenant was entitled to the whole of her husband's
customary estate during widowhood. 2 In some other parts of the south of Westmoreland she received half
the estate. Similarly, at Much Urswick, Kirkby Irleth, Lowick, 3 and Nevill Hall in Furness, the widow was
entitled to half the estate during widowhood. By the old common law of the country she was entitled to only
a third share, and at Clitheroe to a fourth, as was the custom among the ancient Lombards. The Kendal
dower custom is the same as existed so largely in Sussex and on manors elsewhere, as in the vale of Taunton,
where junior inheritance prevailed. The half dower custom is the same as that of Kent, and points to settle-
ments of Goths or Jutes.



So there are customs in certain parts of England which can be attributed to the Longobard immigrants among the Saxons. If Longobards can be found in England there is a good chance that they also ended up in east Ireland with the rest of the Laigin.




Back to Labraid Loingsech. Is this just another bastardized non Gaelic name which was changed by later scribes and myth makers to fit the Gaelic language? Is it possible that Labraid is Langobard? And is it possible that Loingsech comes from the Lombard’s weapon a long knife known as scramasax or long seax or phonetically longsek. So the name of the leader of the Laigin becomes Langobard Longsek?


Is there any indication that this could be in any way possible?


Maybe.


In Irish word “braid” (pronounced brad) means neck, throat, bust. This is exactly where beard is. In Serbian “brada” means beard and if we wanted to make a name out of long beard it would be dugobrad, where dugo is long and brad is beard.


Now we have lango bard, lango b(a)rad, lango baraid….


Also we have this:



In early medieval Ireland beards were also an indicator of class distinction (Fig. 2).Aristocratic men were clean-shaven or had both a beard and a moustache but never a moustache alone. Soldiers and lower-class males wore a long moustache but no beard (Dunlevy 1999, 21).



http://www.academia.edu/466184/Beards_an_archaeological_and_historical_overview


So in Ireland the long beard was reserved for aristocracy. Is this the memory of the old ruling military elite with long beards?



Laigin ruled at Ailinne [Knochawlin], the largest hill-fort in Ireland, near Kilcullen, Co. Kildare, reigned:
25BC-AD25 X. Ugaine "Mor" [Hugony "The Great"], High-King of Ireland, [son of Eochaid "Buadhach" [Eochu "Buadh"], King of Laigin [Leinster], identified with Echu Mac Earc, the last King of the Fir-Bolg, descendant of Dela, first King of the Fir-Bolg, descendant of Beli of Tyre]. He was a popularly claimed ancestor of Irish Royalty in medieval times. He, according to Irish Mythology, engaged in foreign conquests, and extended his dominion over Britain and Gaul. A story now lost has him campaigning in Italy: if so, it would have been as the captain of a company of Irish mercenaries in Roman military service as irregulars or foreign auxiliaries. His wife, called "Cesair ", the third person in Celtic Mythology to have that name, is called the daughter of the King of the Franks, who, at the time would have been the Roman Governor of Gaul, namely, […]oroix, a native Gallic prince in Roman service. On his death claimants to the high-kingship arose at Tara, Navan Fort, as well as Ailinne, which sparked civil wars among the claimants.
date unk X. Loeguire "Lorc", son, King of Laigin/Leinster
date unk X. Cobhthach "Caelbreagh", bro, usurper
date unk X. Labraid "Loingsech" [son of Oilioll "Aine", son of Loeguire "Lorc"], restored to his grand-father's throne with the help of foreign mercenaries, the Gauls (Gaels).



http://www.angelfire.com/ego/et_deo/irishkings.wps.htm


Grandfather of Labraid Loingsech campaigned in Italy. Is this a Longobard campaign of the 6th century of some earlier one maybe the Vandal one?


Scramasax or Seax brings us to this:



Seax (also sax, sæx, sex, latinized sachsum) is an Old English word for "knife".[1] In modern archaeology, the term seax is used specifically for a type of sword or dagger typical of the Germanic peoples - especially the Saxons, whose tribal name derives from the weapon[2] - during the Migration period and the Early Middle Ages.
In heraldry, the seax is a charge consisting of a curved sword with a notched blade, appearing, for example, in the coats of arms ofEssex and the former Middlesex.[3]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seax


So if Saxon or Sekson is a sek (long blade) man then German or Garman as a spear man doesn't sound that crazy? What this brings us to is that neither of the two main “national” or “ethnic” names for Germanic people have nothing to do with race. These names distinguish people by the type of weapon they use. So who were Gar-men and Sek-men ethnically? Maybe we will be able to answer this and maybe not, but it’s definitely an interesting question.


Wikipedia says that seax is “a type of sword or dagger typical of the Germanic peoples - especially the Saxons”. Wikipedia obviously means ethnicity when it says “Germanic”. But long knife was also used by the Irish and by the Slavs.


Now if we look at Irish long knives, Anglo-Saxon long knives, Scandinavian (Norse) long knives, Lombard long knives and Slavic long knives we find something very interesting. Irish long knives most closely resemble the Lombard ones and Slavic ones.


Here is an example of an Irish long knife:

5881


the man who made this replica [I]drew his inspiration for this knife from his research on Irish fighting knives in the National Museum of Ireland and from his research on the Viking scramasax.


http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=1891

Here is an example of a Slavic long knife. Look at the shape of the blade and how much it looks like the Slavic one:

5883


Theslavic sheaths does not look like the gotlandic ones at all! My maininterest is scandinavian 8-10th century and I have studied over 35seaxes with sheaths from Gotland In person and none look like this.


http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?140931-Slavic-style-scabbards-)&highlight=slavic+sax


Here is a Longbard long knife.

5884



http://www.imperialweapons.com/DR/IP-131-2.html


Here are an Anglo Saxon and Norse long knife:




I am sorry the stupid editor has mangled my pictures. i will here add urls to pictures instead.

Viking seax

https://www.google.ie/search?q=viking+seax&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=EuiXUYKMKOGQ7AaD6oDIAQ&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=642

Anglo Saxon seax

https://www.google.ie/search?q=viking+seax&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=EuiXUYKMKOGQ7AaD6oDIAQ&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=642#hl=en&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=anglosaxon+seax&oq=anglosaxon+seax&gs_l=img.3...697265.701270.0.701679.14.12.2.0.0.0. 55.386.12.12.0...0.0...1c.1.14.img.-PDXt3b8aSY&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.46751780,d.ZGU&fp=743896c454d8bdec&biw=1280&bih=642



The difference is striking. Anglo Saxon and Norse long knives belong to one type and Slavic, Longobard and Irish to another??? Can we judge the ethnicity by the shape of the long knife? I don’t know, but this is definitely a question worth exploring.

dublin
18-05-13, 23:03
While we are talking about the long knives, it is worth exploring the name of this weapon:





Old English seax,sax and Old Frisian sax are identical with Old Saxon and Old High German saks,all from a Common Germanic*sahsom froma root*sah,*sag-"tocut" (also insaw,from aPIE root*sek-).The term scramaseax,scramsaxlit."wounding-knife" is sometimes used for disambiguation, even though it is not attested in Old English, but taken from an occurrence of scramasax in Gregory of Tours'History of the Franks.[4]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seax




So the wiki says it is an old German root *sah,*sag-"to cut and then quickly adds that it all comes from the PIE root sek.


http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/sek-


Interestingly enough wiki completely misses to mention Gaelic as a language that has anything to do with Seax or verb sek.
I will now try to fix this and try to expand this etymology with a very interesting word cluster which I found in south Slavic languages and in Irish.


I will start with this citation from a medieval French manuscript:


The Gaelic skills of hand-to-hand and their style of fighting was not lost, as a French observer Boullaye le Gouz comments in 1644: "The Irish carry a scquine (scian - knife) or Turkish dagger, which they dart (throw) very adroitly at 15 paces distance; and have this advantage, that if they remain masters of the field of battle there remains no enemy, and if they are routed, they fly in such a manner that it is impossible to catch them. [A common complaint by English Tudor soldiers] I have seen an Irishman with ease accomplish 25 miles a day. They march to battle with the bagpipes instead of fifes, butt hey have few drums and they use the musket and cannon as we do. They are better soldiers abroad than at home."



http://home.earthlink.net/~rggsibiba/html/galloglas/gallohist.html


The Irish long knife is called Scean or Scian. What is interesting about this word is that it is just one of a cluster of Irish words with the root sc which all somehow relate to blades, making blades, using blades and consequences of using blades. I will here just list few representative ones; you can consult the dictionary for more:


S(e)caineamh– shingly
S(e)clata– slate
S(e)caineadh-crack, split
S(e)ceallog– chip, thin slice
S(e)cealla– shale, flake
S(e)cablail– chisel work
S(e)caid– husks
S(e)caineach– thin, cracked
S(e)cean,s(e)cian (pronounced shkian) – knife
S(e)cean– crack, split, sever


Now these words, I believe, have potentially root in a stone age. When you look at them they basically describe making of a stone blade from a stone. You get a shingly stone, slate, you chip it, split it until you get a sharp blade. Husks and chips fall off in the process. Then you can use it to cut, split and sever…


From the analysis of the word development from Ogham Irish to modern Irish, we see that the language has lost a lot of vowels. To the above words could have had a vowel between Sc root and this is why I inserted the alternative “(e)” which doesn’t exist in modern Gaelic. We also see insertion of vowels in the south Slavic languages as the words traveled from the Baltic to the Balkans in the early medieval time. In some dialects of the south Slavic languages you can still find the original vowless versions of the words. So I am not sure about the above vowel insertion. Also you will see in related south Slavic words that we find both sk and sek roots.




Here is the corresponding south Slavic word cluster. You will notice that it is a lot bigger and wider than the Irish one, but it covers the same word range needed to describe making of a stone blade from as tone as well as all the metal blades and their usage. The fact that in the south Slavic languages we find all the words connected with the stone blades as well as the metal blades with the same root shouldn't surprise us. It was the Balkans, more precisely within the territory of today’s Serbia that metal blades were produced for the first time in copper, bronze and iron. It is fitting to presume that whoever made these metal blades used the same word s(e)k as the root word for both stone and metal blades. If this is so, what does this tell us about the age of these words?




Školjka– shell. Shells are sharp and could have been what gave people idea to create first blades
Skriljac– slate. This stone can be easily chipped and was used for weapon blades.
Skresati– from kresati. Kresati means to hit one thing with another, so that the hitting thing slides of the side of the thing being hit. The word is used to describe hitting a stone with a stone to chip them or to make fire and for cutting branches of a log, basically to chip or to trim. Skresati means to actually chip a bit of or to cut a brunch off, to separate bits.
Skalja– small thin chips of stone or wood
Sek(sometimes pronounced as sik or sk)– root word meaning to cut but also a blade. Word seći(to cut) comes from sekti.
Sečivo(pronounced sechivo) – blade
Sekira(sikira, skira) – axe
Sekare(škare pronounces shkare) – scissors
Sekia(sekian) – knife. This word is now preserved in Bosnian slang word for knife “ćakija” (sekia). This word can also be deduced from a word škia (pronounced shkia) which is a dinaric dialect word which means a thin hand sliced tobacco.
Sekač.– a one sided blade
Skiljiti– to squint, to make your eyes look like as if they were two cuts.
Skija– a blade on a sled, and later a ski.
Sekutić – front tooth
Usek,zasek – a cut
Sek– a log house where logs, which are also called sek, are connected by interlocking cuts made at their ends.
Seknuti– to strike or hit suddenly
Skratiti– to cut down to cut short
Skrvaviti– to make bloody
Skloca– foldup knife
Škljocati- to make a noise by closing something sharp like teeth or scissors.
Škrgutati– to grind teeth
Škopiti– to castrate, to cut balls off.
Skulj– a castrated ram
Škrip– a cut, a narrow space




This word cluster is possibly based on an onomatopoeic root “sk” which potentially makes it very old. The sound which a blade makes when pulled across something in order to cut it is “sssssssk”. When you cut something off with a sudden hit of blade sound shortens to tsk or tsak. I will leave this here and hopefully someone else will pick it up and cover it in more detail.




What I find is very very interesting is word for scissors. Scissors are a complicated implement and who ever made them first gave them the name that stuck among the people who used them first, which probably related people who were living close together.


In Russian and all central and east Slavic languages (including Bulgarian and Macedonian) it is a form of word nožnice.
In Scandinavian languages it is some form of saks.
In French English and Irish it is ciseaux, scissors, siosúr.
In Greek and Latin it is ψαλίδιand axicia
In Italian it is forbici.


But in Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Slovenian, Dutch, German and Latvian it is škare,schaar, schere, š??res…So what is the connection between these people? Is south Baltic the link again, more precisely Elbe valley?


We know that the root word is sekare which comes from south Slavic sek root. Because when we have a look at the word for cut and blade in all these languages we get this:


To cut


German - geschnitten (is this actually sekniten)
Dutch– snijden (this is probably from the above root sekniten)
Latvian– samazin?t
Serbian,Croatian, Bosnian, Slovenian – Seći(Sekti)


Blade


German– Schneide (Sekniede?), Klinge
Dutch– mes
Latvian– asmens


As part of this analysis I have to mention one more word: to slaughter,to kill a living thing using a sharp blade. We need to investigate this word because after all, blades are made for slaughter more than anything else.




In south Slavic languages a word for to slaughter or related to slaughter are:


Klati– to slaughter
Klanje– slaughter
Klan– being slaughtered
Koljač– the one that slaughters
Saklan(zaklan) – slaughtered
Kljakav– someone who is missing a limb due to its being cut off.
Kljuse– a horse which is too old to be useful and which needs to be slaughtered, killed (kolje se)
Kljusav– ready to be slaughtered, killed
Koljivo– a ceremonial meal made from cooked wheat eaten at Serbian “Slava”celebration. Slava is today a family patron saint day celebration,but originally it was a clan ancestral cult celebration. Each family had its own deity as a clan progenitor, and that deity was celebrated as the father of the clan. Originally human sacrifices were made even down to medieval times and maybe even later. In case of Dabog or Hromi Daba, the main deity of all Serbian clans, even first born children were sacrificed. Animals such as lambs, goats and bulls were also sacrificed and are still to this day. Animal sacrifices and particularly human sacrifices sharply distinguished Serbs and other western Slavs from eastern Slavs. During slavisation of the Serbs,blood sacrifices were replaced with cooked wheat but the name remained: koljivo (what was slaughtered as a sacrifice).


Word klati is an onomatopoeic word based on the root “kl” which potentially makes it very old as well.


“kl”or “gl” is, I believe, one of the oldest word roots which is related to things coming out of a throat. It is particularly a sound of choking of gasping for air while something liquid is filling your throat and lungs, like blood when an animal or a person is being slaughtered. If you have ever slaughtered anything you will not easily forget that sound. The sound is kljkljklj….


In south Slavic languages we have this word


Krkljati– gargle
Kuljati– to gush, as in puking or bleeding when a throat is slit, or bleeding when a body is sliced open with a blade, or a head crushed with an axe blow.
kljukati - continuously stuff something down someones throat.

It is interesting how much this klati sound like kill. In wiktionary we find this as etymology of kill:





From Middle English killen,kyllen,cüllen(“to strike, beat, cut”),possibly a variant of Old English cwellan(“tokill, murder, execute”)(seequell),or from Old Norse kolla(“tohit on the head, harm”)(compare Norwegian kylla(“topoll”),Middle Dutch kollen(“toknock down”),Icelandic kollur(“top,head”),see coll,cole).Compare also Middle Dutch killen,kellen(“tokill”),Middle Low German killen(“toache strongly, to cause one great pain”),Middle High German kellen. Cognate with Albanian qëlloj(“tohit, strike”).



http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kill


I think these words are related, but I will leave this to others to investigate further.




Now we also have word klanac which means a gorge, a deep narrow valley out of which a river flows. These valleys are deep cuts in hills and mountains which look as if they were made by a gods using giant blade. Out of these earth wounds, water, the blood of the earth gushes out.
This is incredible descriptive naming of geological formations, as klanac does also resemble a deep cut made by a blade in a flesh, especially in a neck while slaughtering out of which blood starts gushing out.If you have ever slaughtered anything or anyone you will know what I am talking about.
So klanac is a place where mother earth has been slaughtered. How old could this word possible be?


Now in Gaelic we have this word: Glen. The word is Goidelic : gleann in Scottish and Irish Gaelic, glion in Manx.In Manx,glan is also to be found meaning glen. It is cognate with Welsh glynl.


Wiktionary says that it means: A secluded and narrow valley;a dale;a depression between hills.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glen
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/glen


we also have word claon: inclining, squint, oblique, Irish claon,Old Irish clóin:*kloino-;[email protected],[email protected],leaning, English incline;[email protected]ínw(@Gilong),incline; English lean;Lithuanian szlë/ti,incline; Sanskrit çrayati(do.).


So here we have a link between to slaughter, to cut a slit, to squint,klanac (glen, gorge)…


Also it is interesting that in Germanic languages the word for slaughter has the same root (s-kl) as in south Slavic languages (Schlachten,s(e)klahten), but in east Slavic and central Slavic languages it is based on the root “rez” which also means to cut in Slavic languages. This again shows the affinity of south Slavic languages with Germanic languages. This also shows that south Slavic languages kept their old word for cut (sek) and also absorbed the new Slavic word (rez).

dublin
18-05-13, 23:16
The title of this post was Long beards, long ears, long blades and long spears. We have seen long beards, long blades and long spears. What about long ears? Let’s go back to Labraid Loingsech.





The story is told, similar to a legend of the Greek king Midas,that Labraid had horse's ears, something he was concerned to keep quiet. He had his hair cut once a year, and the barber, who was chosen by lot, was immediately put to death. A widow, hearing that her only son had been chosen to cut the king's hair, begged the king not to kill him, and he agreed, so long as the barber kept his secret. The burden of the secret was so heavy that the barber fell ill. A druid advised him to go to a crossroads and tell his secret to the first tree he came to, and he would be relieved of his burden and be well again. He told the secret to a large willow.Soon after this, however, Craiftine broke his harp, and made a new one out of the very willow the barber had told his secret to.Whenever he played it, the harp sang "Labraid Lorc has horse'sears". Labraid repented of all the barbers he had put to death and admitted his secret.[4]



This is a very interesting story and quite unusual. Let’s see if we can find similar legends anywhere else:
1. Midas(Greece).
2. Tarkasnawa (luw."ass") - also known as the false reading Tarkondemos-was a king of the Hittite vassal state Mira in the west of present-day Turkey. He probably reigned in the time of the Great King Tudhalija IV in the 13 th Century BC
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarkasnawa
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=1430426&partId=1
3. The Goat's Ears of the Emperor Trojan (Serbia).
4. The King with the Horse's Ears (Ireland), Laigin story about Labhradh Loingseach.
5. March's Ears (Wales). This story comes from Llyn peninsula. Now this is the same Lleynw whose name is thought to be of Irish origin, and to have the same root –Laigin (Laighin) in Irish –as the word Leinster and which also occurs in Porth Dinllaen on the north coast and which was a Laigin colony in wales.
6. In pre-Islamic legend of Central Asia, the king of the Ossounes of the Yenisei basin had donkey's ears. He would hide them, and order each of his barbers killed to hide his secret. The last barber among his people was counselled to whisper the heavy secret into a well after sundown, but he didn't cover the well afterwards. The well water rose and flooded the kingdom, creating the waters of Lake Issyk-Kul. (Based on available data the bronze age civilsation that existed here dates to 2500 years ago.)
http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20071227/94372640.html
http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0782.html


Lets see what we can find about these stories and see if we can propose some chronology and direction of spreading of this unusual myth:


Sarah Morris demonstrated (Morris 2004) that donkeys' ears (my comment:donkeys or goats ears???) were a Bronze Age royal attribute, borne by King Tarkasnawa (Greek Tarkondemos) ofMira,on a seal inscribed in both Hittite cuneiform and Luwian hieroglyphs:in this connection, the myth would appear for Greeks, to justify the exotic attribute.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midas




Let’s see what we can find about king Midas:


The King Midas who ruled Phrygia in the late 8th century BC is known from Greek and Assyrian sources. According to the former, he married a Greek princess, Damodice daughter of Agamemnon of Cyme, Aeolia, and traded extensively with the Greeks. Some historians believe this Midas donated the throne that Herodotus says was offered to the Oracleof Delphi by"Midas son of Gordias" (see above). Assyrian tablets from the reign of SargonII record attacks by a "Mita", king of the Mushki,against Assyria's eastern Anatolian provinces. Some historians believe Assyrian texts called this Midas king of the "Mushki"because he had subjected the eastern Anatolian people of that name and incorporated them into his army. Greek sources including Strabo[23] say that Midas committed suicide by drinking bulls' blood during an attack by the Cimmerians, which Eusebius dated to around 695 BC and JuliusAfricanus to around 676 BC. Archeology has confirmed that Gordium was destroyed and burned around that time.[24]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midas


Now when we look at who Mushki are we get this:


The Mushki (Muški; Georgian, Mushkebi) were an Iron Age people of Anatolia, known from Assyrian sources.They do not appear in Hittite records.[1]Several authors have connected them with the Moschoi (Μόσχοι)of Greek sources and the Georgian tribe of the Meskhi. Josephus Flavius identified the Moschoi with the Biblical Meshech. Two different groups are called Muški in the Assyrian sources (Diakonoff 1984:115),one from the 12th to 9th centuries, located near the confluence of the Arsanias and the Euphrates ("Eastern Mushki"), and the other in the 8th to 7th centuries, located in Cappadocia and Cilicia ("Western Mushki"). Assyrian sources identify the Western Mushki with the Phrygians,while Greek sources clearly distinguish between Phrygians and Moschoi.
Georgian historians believe the Massagetae is another name for the Mushki, in contradiction to prevailing opinion which places the Massagetae in Central Asia. They base their argument on statements by Herodotus that the Massagetae lived "beyond the Araxes"(1.201) and that "after crossing the Araxes, Cyrus was sleeping on the territory of the Massagetae" (1.209), while rejecting as a mistake a third statement by Herodotus that "on the west the Caspian is bounded by the Caucasus; eastwards lies an immense tract of flat country ... the greater part of this region is occupied by the Massagetae" (1.204). Georgian historians also point to the similarity of the names Massagetae, Mtskheta and Meskheti, and to the lack of archeological evidence for a Massagetae state in Central Asia.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushki


The ancient tribes of Meskhi (or Moschi) and Mosiniks are the first known inhabitants of the area of modern Samtskhe-Javakheti region. Some scholars credit the Mosiniks (or Mossynoeci) with the invention of iron metallurgy. From the 2nd millennium to the 4th century BC, Meskheti was believed to be part of the Kingdom of Diaokhi, in the 4th century BC to the 6th century AD part of the Kingdom of Iberia.From the 10th to the 15th century it was part of the united Georgian Kingdom.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meskhetians


This is very interesting about the Georgian Mushki. Some scholars are crediting these Mushki with the invention of Iron. This fits perfectly with the expansion of the Iron age people from the Balkans who under the name Mushki spread around the world conquering countries all the way to central Asia.




Now this is very interesting. King Mita (still a very common name in the Balkans among the south Slavs and Bulgarians also found in form Mitar and Mitra) was the leader of Muški Mushki an Iron Age people of Anatolia…I couldn’t find any proposed etymology of Muški,so I will propose my own: in Serbian and other Slavic languages, word for man is muž. But muž can also mean husband and lord. Word for manly is Muški,but Muški can also mean men, or lords…when we look at the time of his reign,we see that it falls into 8th century BC well after the iron was invented in the Balkans. So was Mita leading the Mushki (men) from Balkans? He was the king of Phrygians. Is there any indication that these Phrygian Mushki could be from the Balkans? There is:

Inscriptions found at Gordium make clear that Phrygians spoke an Indo-European language with at least some vocabulary similar to Greek,and clearly not belonging to the family of Anatolian languages spoken by most of Phrygia's neighbors.[1][2]According to one of the so-called Homeric Hymns, the Phrygian language was not mutually intelligible with Trojan.[3]
According to ancient tradition among Greek historians, the Phrygians anciently migrated to Anatolia from the Balkans. Herodotus says the Phrygians were called Bryges when they lived in Europe.[4]He and other Greek writers also recorded legends about King Midas that associated him with or put his origin in Macedonia;Herodotus for example says a wild rose garden in Macedonia was named after Midas.[5] The Phrygians were also connected by some classical writers to the Mygdones, the name of two groups of people, one of which lived in northern Macedonia and another in Mysia.Likewise the Phrygians have been identified with the Bebryces,a people said to have warred with Mysia before theTrojan War and who had a king named Mygdon at roughly the same time as the Phrygians were said to have had a king named Mygdon. The classical historian Strabo groups Phrygians, Mygdones, Mysians, Bebryces and Bithynians together as peoples that migrated to Anatolia from the Balkans.[6]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia


So if Phrygians came from the north Balkans, then possibly the Serbian story about King Trajan and his goat ears could be the original myth from which all the other ones have been developed. The story about king Trajan comes from the area of the Djerdap gorge, the biggest gorge in Europe, the place where mighty Danube, managed to burst through Carpathian mountains and thus empty the ancient Pannonian sea.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pannonian_Sea


Thus Danube was a sea and a river, the ancient Oceanos potamos of the old Gaia. The Djerdap gorge is the place where we find the most advanced Mesolithic civilization,Lepenski Vir.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepenski_Vir


This is also the area where we later find Vinca civilization which invented Copper and Bronze 7000 years ago. Just to the south is Hisar, where first iron and industrial iron production sites were found that date to 1400 BC, much earlier than the Hittite finds. We know that the Vinca copper culture spread from the Balkans to Anatolia. I believe that so far still unidentified(proto Illyrian) Iron culture also spread from the Balkans to Anatolia. And they took with them their story about king Trajan and his long Ears. I know that some people will argue that the story is originally Phrygian and that it originates in Anatolia. I would like to ask then, how is it possible that such an obscure story be adopted by the Irish, Serbs and Ossounes,but no one else in between, particularly in greco roman Europe??? Do the Irish and the Serbs have weird taste for legends, and have somehow picked this weird story and made it an obligatory material for the around the fire story telling time, until it became a folk legend?It makes no sense. The only logical explanation is that the story spread from the Carpathian region of Serbia. And then fallowed the Frigians. Now who were these Phrygians? This is what etymology dictionary says:


Phrygian- "native of Phrygia,"region in ancient Asia Minor; Phrygian mode in ancient Greek music theory was held to be "of a warlike character."



Is it possible that original Phrygia was not in Asia Minor, but in the north east Balkans, and that the name was brought to Asia Minor during the Phrygian Migrations? This happens all the time. Migrants give their new countries and towns the names from the “old country”. Is it possible that there are many Phrygias? Like Friesland,the area from Jutland to the west, from which our friends Laigin came from? Or this mysterious Island also called Frisland:


Frisland,also called Frischlant, Friesland, Freezeland, Frislandia,or Fixland,is a mythical island that appeared on virtually all of the maps of the North Atlantic from the 1560s through the 1660s. It is not to be confused with the similarly named Friesland in the Netherlands.
It originally referred to Iceland ("Freezeland"),but after the Zeno Map (1558)placed it as an entirely separate island south (or occasionally south-west) of Iceland, it appeared that way on maps for the next 100 years. Its existence was given currency in manuscript maps of the 1560s by the Maggiolo family of Genoa and was accepted by Mercator and Jodocus Hondius. Some early maps by Willem Blaeu,such as his 1617 map of Europe, omit it, but it reappears on his 1630 world map as one of many islands shown off the eastern coast of Labrador which was then believed to extend to within a few hundred miles of Scotland. Among its last appearances is in a 1652 world map by Visscher,[contradiction] largely copied from that of Blaeu.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisland


Is this Frisland island actually Ireland of the Laigin?


Frisland was shown as a roughly rectangular island with three triangular promontories on its western coast.


Here is the picture of Frisland island:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Frisland_Mercator.jpg




Here is map of Ireland:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Keltoi_Tribes.PNG


Do you see anything similar?Interesting in any case...




Now in England and Ireland we find Brigantes.


Is it possible that Phrygians, Frisians and Brigantes are the same People? I mean how many people are called anything similar? And isn't is interesting that it is exactly these pople that have preserved the story of the king with long ears, which originally came from the old Phrygia in the Balkans?


And what could the name of this nation mean? Is it possible that Phrygians were actually Brigians? In one of the south Slavic dialects the word for a man made hill is Brig. Do you remember the kingdom of Brega, the kingdom of tumuluses in Ireland? Do you remember Tabor Breg, the main tumulus center of Ireland? Are Brigi actually Bregi? Are Brigantes actually Bregantes?Are Phrigians actually Brigians actually Bregians people of the Breg, Tumulus?


By the way the name Trajan is still used in eastern Serbia as a personal name. And the story about king Trajan's ears is not the only story about king Trajan. There is another one in which the king Trojan, the king of some old city located somewhere in Serbia, goes every night across river Danube, where he visits his mistress. But he has to make sure to return back before the sunrises, or else he will melt.


http://mirjanadetelic.com/leksikon/gradovi/gradout.php?id=1986&slovo=T&str=1


We find very similar legend in Russia about the Slavic god Hors:


Vseslav the prince judged men; as prince, he ruled towns; but at night he prowled in the guise of a wolf. From Kiev, prowling, he reached,before the cocks crew, Tmutorokan. The path of great Hors, as a wolf,prowling, he crossed.
In other words, prince Vseslav reached Tmutorokan before dawn, thus crossing the path of Hors, the Sun. In the mythical view of the world, the Sun has to pass through the underworld during the night tor each the eastern horizon by the dawn. This, and the fact that prince Vseslav is transformed into a wolf during the night, while "crossing the path of Hors", draws a very interesting parallel with the Serbian Dabog, who, as stated already, was believed to be a lame"wolf shepherd" who rules over the underworld. Of particular interest is the fact that Serbian folk accounts describe him as being lame; lameness was a standing attribute of Greek Hephaestus, whom, as we have seen, the Hypatian Codex compared with Slavic smith-god Svarog, father of Dažbog. (In fact, most of Indo-European smith-gods were lame; the reason for this was most likely arsenicosis,low levels of arsenic poisoning,resulting in lameness and skin cancers.Arsenic was added to bronze to harden it and most smiths of the Bronze Age would have suffered from chronic workplace poisoning.) Serbian Dabog, being lord of underworld, was also associated with precious metals, and sometimes was said to have a silver beard.
So here we have two stories with the same theme. One story is about Dabog, Hromi Daba,Crom Dubh, The father and the king ancestral king of the Serbs and the another is about king Trojan? Are these two characters one and the same?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da%C5%BEbog




Lets see if we can find out what name Trajan means. We can find the answer in Irish:


Here is another interesting word cluster from Irish language:


tré- triad - trojstvo
tréad - flock, heard, congregation - stado,pastva
tréadach - pastoral - cobanski, nomadski
tréadai -shepard, pastor - cobanin, pastor
tréadaioch - hearding -skupljati uterivati stado
treabhcas - tribe - pleme
treabhann -tribune, leader - tribun, lider, bodja
treablaht - household,family - domacinstvo, porodica
treabh - plough - plug
treibh -house, homestead, tribe, race - kuca, domacinstvo, pleme, rasa
trea- spear - koplje
trean - warior- ratnik. So Trean or Trajan is awarrior.
treas- battle - bitka
treasair - conquer - osvojiti
treis - strong,in power - jak, na vlasti
triath - lord, prince - gospodar, princ




This is an incredibly important cluster. I have never seen any other word group that describes iron age society in a better way. And it shows us that Trean or Trojan means warrior. So Is Trea Treas, or Troja, Troas the land of warriors? And if so was the original Troja in the Balkans in the second millennium BC and that Troas in Anatolia is the second Troja ? I think that there are things that point to exactly that.


We know that Hittites, Phrygians and ancient people of the iron age Balkans built tumuluses. Serbian historian Pesic, who first proposed the idea of the Vinca script, and Russian paleography experts have discovered an ancient monogram in Vinca material which was also found in Sarmatian material. The monogram was identified as the symbol of an ancient Pelasgian deity Domatrios, the oldest male deity of Europe. (I would be very grateful to anyone for more material on Domatrios, as i could not find anything on the net). Pesic says that that the meaning of the name of this deity is unclear…


http://www.srpskadijaspora.info/vest.asp?id=4917


Let’s go back to Irish and see if it can help:


dumha– tumulus. In Slavic languages dumati means to think but also to hold meetings. In Russian duma is parliament, and we know from Irish legends, that parliaments were held on top of tumuluses.


domatrios= duma triath (tré)= lord (triad, trinity) of the tumulus…
This brigns us straight back to Ireland and deity Crom Dubh whose one of the names is the head of the mound (tumulus) or lord of the mound(tumulus). And here is the head which is said to represent Crom Dubh.It is the trefaced stone idol of Triglav:




http://www.museum.ie/en/list/artefacts.aspx?article=c9f1d3b1-4474-41ef-a04e-09a6a825e141




By the way there are several mountains in the Balkans named Trojan. Is it because Trojan was the same as Triglav?


There is also a folk dance in Serbia called trojanac.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0uNU7s38oQ






One last thing. The area of the eastern Serbia from which the story of king Trajan's long ears is called Tribalian planes.


Triballian Plains, Tribalia or Lower Timok is the southern territory of the Timočka Krajina, between Yantra river and Morava river.Its name is derived from the Paleo-Balkan tribe of Triballi who lived in the region.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi


Welcome to the rabbit hole…

inver2b1
19-05-13, 14:25
Rabbit hole?

MOESAN
19-05-13, 15:19
concerning the respective place of adjective (epithete)and noun we have to be careful:
it seems Slavs and Germanics and Indo-Iranians placed the adjective before the noun and keep doing it (for greek I'm not sure but I believe it is the same: YETOS could answer me)- in romance and celtic languages, the adjective is placed after the noun - (in french, the adjective before the noun is considered as a frankish influence, ture or wrong) but in OLD celtic names and OLD COMMON NOUNS, the adjective were before the noun, so we could consider the I-E celtic speakers at first placed their adejctives before the noun as did and do Germanics and Slavs - and the change of placing could be caused by the substrata in western Europe... difficult ot link it by force to the only Vinca culture
breton: newez-c'hanet = ganet a-newez (newborn) - meurvor, mor meur :(ocean) - dourgi = ki-dour (mink) - so, in breton and welsh: old compound nouns: adj+noun, recent compound nouns: noun+adj
SO: a pre-celtic population in Ireland (as everywhere in Western Europe, by the way): YES - linked to VINCA OR SOUTH-EAST-CENTRAL EUROPE: NO (not automatically)

dublin
20-05-13, 00:10
hi Moesan

Sorry didn't have time to answer your questions earlier. let me try to answer few of them now:


I see no evident particuliar link between Ireland and Serbia, on or without a I-E link - as a whole, the serbian language doesn' t show numerous common words with irish, gaelic or not


I beg to differ on this. I believe that these two languages share many common words. And not just words but grammatical structures as well. I have just started, there is a lot more to come. And by the way i am not talking about celtic slavic links, or to be more precise slavic germanic language traits in Irish and other "celtic" lnaguages. I am talking about gaelic traits in Serbian and other south slavic languages which do not appear in other slavic or in some cases any other european language.



I found very confusing the term DUBLIN uses frequently : "South Baltic", mixing central europe ancient cultures with more northern and maritime cultures is explications


South Baltic was the maritime gateway of central Europe. All cultural imports found in Ireland were first found in central Europe, then in south Baltic, then in Ireland. this shows clear transfer path and connection between these regions. I see no problem here.


about the derived words from 'tuatha' (breton, welsh: 'tud' : "people", previously "race", "descendance", germanic 'theod' or something close to it) considered by him as scornful and the link he does with the Tuatha De Danan are of uncertain value for I think because 1) 'pobl', 'people'='folk', are words very often associated from one part to to the honoured nation and from another part to basic people, poor people, peasantry but also workers - by the ruling upper classes - it 's the same i french, where 'peuple' is an honorable word but where 'populaire' and 'populiste' are words of disdain, as 'vulgo' (french 'vulgaire': bad educated) in latin - Dublin could object: "why the term 'tuatha' was not used for other people?" it 's true; but other subalterne or inferior tribes in Ireland had other names, some in 'Fir ...' ("the men"), why not 'tuatha'? sothis argument is not stupid but it is weak, I think -


All i am saying is that Tuatha is a foreign word, not Gaelic and has negative characteristics associated with invading foreign non Gaelic force. The last word "tre" cluster is the Gaelic root for tribe. Now the fact that we find it in the Balkans at the time of king Mita and king Trean begs the question which one of the ancient people spoke Gaelic or some proto Gaelic language in the Balkans at that time? As i said before i don't believe that Serbs and Irish are the same people, just that they lived for a very long time together in a very distant past, and probably later as well. Trojans and Breges were allies but spoke mutually unintelligible languages??? Maybe the clue is here who knows?



Who were the Gaels and when they came???

This is indeed a million dollar question and one that i am trying to answer.



it seems Slavs and Germanics and Indo-Iranians placed the adjective before the noun and keep doing it (for greek I'm not sure but I believe it is the same: YETOS could answer me)- in romance and celtic languages, the adjective is placed after the noun - (in french, the adjective before the noun is considered as a frankish influence, ture or wrong) but in OLD celtic names and OLD COMMON NOUNS, the adjective were before the noun, so we could consider the I-E celtic speakers at first placed their adejctives before the noun as did and do Germanics and Slavs - and the change of placing could be caused by the substrata in western Europe.

And this supports my thesis that Slavic + Germanic languages of Central Europe are the true celtic languages. And that Gaels and the other atlantic people adopted words of this celtic language but kept their own gaelic grammar.


SO: a pre-celtic population in Ireland (as everywhere in Western Europe, by the way): YES - linked to VINCA OR SOUTH-EAST-CENTRAL EUROPE: NO (not automatically)

:)

no not automatically. I have found so many answers that have opened so many more question...this is why i am presenting this here because i need help to investigate these things in detail. Everything i wrote here so far are just notes. This is like a sketch. I hope others will fill in the details...

Thank you and everyone else for being interested by the way.

dublin
21-05-13, 17:48
While we are talking about same people appearing in multiple places at different times, and while we are talking about Mushki (Or Bregi), here is another tribe which seems to be fallowing them around all the way to Ireland: Iberians or Iverians or Iverni.


In his book "The origin of the Irish race" Mallory expressed skepticism regarding the book if invasions and as an example of how fanciful it is it quoted the part which tells us how the Nemedians sailed from the Caspian Sea all the way to Ireland. Mallory says that this being impossible, the chapter is and example of a later construction which was composed to link the Irish to Scythians and ultimately Christianity. In my opinion this exact chapter certifies that the book of Invasions was compiled from actual old histories. It was later doctored to suit changing ethnic, political and religious needs, but the original material was not an invention but a true description of events that actually happened.


It is very easy to sale from Caspian Sea to Ireland. You have to use the old Volga trading route up to the Baltic and then from the Baltic sea you follow the old Atlantean trading route down to Ireland and further down to Iberian peninsula. The old Caspian Sea - Baltic sea - Ireland trading route was last used by Varangians in the medieval time. I find it very interesting that in Gaelic texts there are so many references to Varangians, which according to the official history should never have set foot in Ireland...


Here you have a text about the Volga trade route:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_trade_route


What i find very interesting is that along this trade route we find Iberians in Spain, Iverni or Iberni in Ireland and Iberians at the other end of the trade route in the area between the Black and Caspian sea.



Iberia (Georgian — იბერია, Latin: Iberia and Greek: Ἰβηρία), also known as Iveria (Georgian: ივერია), was a name given by the ancient Greeks and Romans to the ancient Georgian kingdom of Kartli[1] (4th century BC – 5th century AD), corresponding roughly to the eastern and southern parts of the present day Georgia.[2][3]


The area was inhabited in earliest times by several relative tribes of Tibareni, Mushki, Saspers, Gugars, Diaokhi, etc., collectively called Iberians (the Eastern Iberians) by ancient Greek (Herodotus, Strabo, etc.) and Roman authors. Iberians called their country Kartli after a mythic chief, Kartlos. One of the Iberian tribes of Mtskheta (the future capital of the Iberian kingdom) dominated the early Kingdom. The Mtskheta tribe was later ruled by a prince locally known as mamasakhlisi (“the father of the household” in Georgian).


The similarity of the name with the old inhabitants of the Iberian peninsula, the 'Western' Iberians, has led to an idea of ethnogenetical kinship between them and the people of Caucasian Iberia (called the 'Eastern' Iberians).
It has been advocated by various ancient and medieval authors, although they differed in approach to the problem of the initial place of their origin. The theory seems to have been popular in medieval Georgia. The prominent Georgian religious writer Giorgi Mthatzmindeli (George of Mt Athos) (1009–1065) writes about the wish of certain Georgian nobles to travel to the Iberian peninsula and visit the local Georgians of the West, as he called them



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Iberia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Iberians


So the at the beginning of the the Caspian - Atlantic trade rout we find Iberians ruled by Mushki. And Georgian old chronicles talk about both Atlantean Iberians and Caspian Iberians being of the same origin.


Now this Caspian Iberian culture is said to be most likely a mix of indigenous culture and (Indo) European culture.



The area was inhabited in earliest times by several related tribes in Kura-Araxes culture, collectively called Iberians (the Eastern Iberians) by ancient authors. Locals called their country Kartli after a mythic chief, Kartlos. The Moschi, mentioned by various classic historians, and their possible descendants, the Saspers (who were mentioned by Herodotus), may have played a crucial role in the consolidation of the tribes inhabiting the area. The Moschi had moved slowly to the northeast forming settlements as they traveled. The chief of these was Mtskheta, the future capital of the Iberian kingdom. The Mtskheta tribe was later ruled by a principal locally known as mamasakhlisi (“the father of the household” in Georgian). The medieval Georgian source Moktsevai Kartlisai (“Conversion of Kartli”) also speaks about Azo and his people, who came from Arian-Kartli – the initial home of the proto-Iberians, which had been under Achaemenid rule until the fall of the Persian Empire – to settle on the site where Mtskheta was to be founded. Another Georgian chronicle Kartlis Tskhovreba (“History of Kartli”) claims Azo to be an officer of Alexander’s, who massacred a local ruling family and conquered the area, until being defeated at the end of the 4th century BC by Prince Pharnavaz, who was at that time a local chief.
The story of Alexander’s invasion of Kartli, although entirely fictional, nevertheless reflects the establishment of Georgian monarchy in the Hellenistic period and the desire of later Georgian literati to connect this event to the celebrated conqueror.[7]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Iberia



Arian Kartli (Aryan-Kartli; Georgian: არიან-ქართლი) was a country claimed by the medieval Georgian chronicle "The Conversion of Kartli" (მოქცევაჲ ქართლისაჲ, mokc’evay k’art’lisay) to be the earlier homeland of the Georgians of Kartli (Iberia, central and eastern Georgia).
The Georgian Chronicles relate the apocryphal story of Alexander the Great’s campaign into inner Georgia. Alexander reportedly brought Azoy (Azo), the son of the unnamed "king of Arian-Kartli", together with followers, to Mtskheta, principal city of Kartli, and charged him with the administration of Kartli in his absence. The 11th-century Georgian monk Arsen, the author of metaphrastical reduction of "The life of St. Nino" and tutor of King David IV of Georgia, comments on this passage: "We, Georgians, are descendants of the newcomers from Arian-Kartli, we speak their language and all the kings of Kartli are descendents of their kings".[1]
The identification of a polity medieval Georgian writers called Arian Kartli remains problematic. It seems to have preceded the Near Eastern conquests of Alexander the Great, but the precise location of this "kingdom", the date of its foundation, and the identity of its rulers cannot be determined by means of surviving documentary evidence. The word "Aryan" (Noble) comes from the ancient Indian language called Sanskrit suggesting the connection to Indo-Aryans. (Arian Kartli/Aryan Kartli) and Classical sources scholars have inferred that this land lay within the orbit of Achaemenid Empire. Herodotus' list of the Achaemenid provinces, which places the proto-Georgian tribes within the 13th and 19th satrapies, is significant in this regard.[2] These territories partially correspond to the historical Georgian southwest where a number of Georgian scholars, notably Giorgi Melikishvili, tend to place Aryan Kartli.
The early Georgian kingdom of Kartli/Iberia, which clearly emerges in historical accounts of Hellenistic period, seems to have shared the Iranian bonds of Arian Kartli.[2] Cyril Toumanoff equates the region with the Aranē (Greek: ‘Αράνη) of Ptolemy (V.6.18) and the Harrana of the Hittites.[3]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian-Kartli


So where is this Arian land from which the future rulers of Iberians came and who were they? I propose Balkans and the Vincans during the copper and bronze age of the fourth and third millennium BC. Then Mushki the Iron age Balkan people during the early part of the first millennium BC.


The Caspian Iberians are linked to Kura–Araxes culture.



The Kura–Araxes culture or the early trans-Caucasian culture (Armenian: Քուռ-Արաքսի մշակույթ, Georgian: მტკვარ-არაქსის კულტურა), was a civilization that existed from 3400 BC until about 2000 BC,[1] which has traditionally been regarded as the date of its end, but it may have disappeared as early as 2600 or 2700 BC.[2] The earliest evidence for this culture is found on the Ararat plain; thence it spread to Georgia by 3000 BC (but never reaching Colchis[3]), and during the next millennium it proceeded westward to the Erzurum plain, southwest to Cilicia, and to the southeast into an area below the Urmia basin and Lake Van, and finally down to the borders of present day Syria. Altogether, the early Trans-Caucasian culture, at its greatest spread, enveloped a vast area approximately 1,000 km by 500 km.[4]




Economy


The economy was based on farming and livestock-raising (especially of cattle and sheep).[8] They grew grain and various orchard crops, and are known to have used implements to make flour. They raised cattle, sheep, goats, dogs, and in its later phases, horses (introduced around 3000 BCE, probably by Indo-European speaking tribes from the North).[8]
There is evidence of trade with Mesopotamia, as well as Asia Minor.[8] It is, however, considered above all to be indigenous to the Caucasus, and its major variants characterized (according to Caucasus historian Amjad Jaimoukha) later major cultures in the region.[8]
Metallurgy




The extent of the Kuro-Araxes culture (light shading) shown in relation to subsequent cultures in the area, such as Urartu (dark shading).
In its earliest phase, metal was scant, but it would later display "a precocious metallurgical development which strongly influenced surrounding regions".[9] They worked copper, arsenic, silver, gold,[3] tin, and bronze.[7]
Their metal goods were widely distributed, recorded in the Volga, Dnieper and Don-Donets systems in the north, into Syria and Palestine in the south, and west into Anatolia.




Culture


The culture is closely linked to the approximately contemporaneous Maykop culture of Transcaucasia. As Amjad Jaimoukha puts it,
The Kura-Araxes culture was contiguous, and had mutual influences, with the Maikop culture in the Northwest Caucasus. According to E.I.Krupnov (1969:77), there were elements of the Maikop culture in the early memorials of Chechnya and Ingushetia in the Meken and Bamut kurgans and in Lugovoe in Serzhen-Yurt. Similarities between some features and objects of the Maikop and Kura-Araxes cultures, such as large square graves, the bold-relief curvilinear ornamentation of pottery, ochre-coloured ceramics, earthen hearth props with horn projections, flint arrowheads, stone axes and copper pitchforks are indicative of a cultural unity that pervaded the Caucasus in the Neolithic Age.[11]
Inhumation practices are mixed. Flat graves are found, but so are substantial kurgan burials, the latter of which may be surrounded by cromlechs. This points to a heterogeneous ethno-linguistic population (see section below).[citation needed] Late in the history of this culture, its people built kurgans of greatly varying sizes, containing greatly varying amounts and types of metalwork, with larger, wealthier kurgans surrounded by smaller kurgans containing less wealth.[12] This trend suggests the eventual emergence of a marked social hierarchy.[12] Their practice of storing relatively great wealth in burial kurgans was probably a cultural influence from the more ancient civilizations of the Fertile Crescent to the south.[13]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kura-Araxes_culture


So we see that Kura-Araxes culture traded along the same Volga trading route and along other rivers in the area. This suggests that they used boats for transport. They also traded with Mesopotamia and Asia minor both areas where we find Vinca culture inspired new civilizations at the same time.


Also the burrial practices are showing us that the population was mixed and that the elite was burried in Curgans (tumuluses, bregs) the same like all the other cultures somehow related to Ireland and the Balkans. But this is the most interesting: "substantial kurgan burials were in some cases surrounded by cromlechs"


What is a Cromlech?



Cromlech is a Brythonic word (Breton/Cornish/Welsh) used to describe prehistoric megalithic structures, where crom means "bent" or "curved" and llech means "slab" or "flagstone".[1] The term is now virtually obsolete in archaeology, but remains in use as a colloquial term for two different types of megalithic monument.
In English it usually refers to dolmens, the remains of prehistoric stone chamber tombs.[2] However, it is widely used in French and Spanish to describe stone circles. Confusingly, some English-speaking archaeologists, such as Aubrey Burl, use this second meaning for cromlech in English too.[3]
In addition, the term is occasionally used to describe more complex examples of megalithic architecture, such as the Almendres Cromlech in Portugal.[4]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromlech
http://www.libraryireland.com/Antiquities/I-I.php


Now half way between Iberia in the east and Iberia in the west we find Mecklenburg-Vorpommern or as it was once known as Pomerania or Pomorje, the land of Slavic sea pirates and possible land of Fomori. And what do we find there?



In the area of present-day Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Germany, up to 5,000 megalith tombs were erected as burial sites by people of the Neolithic Funnelbeaker (TRB) culture. More than 1,000 of them are preserved today and protected by law. Though varying in style and age, megalith structures are common in Western Europe, with those in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern belonging to the youngest and easternmost—further east, in the modern West Pomeranian Voivodeship of Poland, monuments erected by the TRB people did not include lithic structures, while they do in the south (Brandenburg), west (Lower Saxony and Schleswig-Holstein) and north (Denmark).


The megaliths in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern were erected as burial sites in the Neolithic, by the bearers of the Funnelbeaker (TRB) culture,[1][2] between 3,500 and 3,200 BC.[3] Initially, the TRB people buried their dead in pits, often covered with mounds of clay.[2] Later, they erected dolmens for this purpose,[2] but also continued the use of flat graves.[1] All megaliths were erected during a relatively short time period, spanning about 200 years or about seven generations, with the oldest ones dating to phase C of the Early Neolithic, while most were built in the beginning of the Middle Neolithic.[1]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaliths_in_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern



What happened in Pomerania? Is this the place where Vinca culture spreading from the Balkans northwards met Megalitic Atlantean culture? One other thing is very interesting. If we look at who built these megaliths in Pomerania, we see that they were built by funnel beaker people.



The Funnel(-neck-)beaker culture, short TRB or TBK from (German) Trichter(-rand-)becherkultur (ca 4100 BC–ca 2800 BC) was an archaeological culture in north-central Europe. It developed as a technological merger of local neolithic and mesolithic techno-complexes between the lower Elbe and middle Vistula rivers, introducing farming and husbandry as a major source of food to the pottery-using hunter-gatherers north of this line.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funnelbeaker_culture


Where was the center of this megalith culture which introduced farming and husbandry? It was in the area between Elbe and Vistula, in Pomeranija, the land of Pomori or Fomori. These funnel beaker people descend from Stroke-ornamented ware people who we already mentioned as the guys who first built rondel enclosures or henges.


One very interesting thing about funnel beaker people is that they probably introduced the milk tolerance gene into European population. The distribution of this gene corresponds with the distribution of the funnel beaker culture. But genetically (from the point of view of the male chromosome) this area is very diverse. Actually milk tolerance corresponds most closely with the distribution of the R1b chromosome. Is the R1b the carrier of the Atlantean Megalith culture and and if so where and how did it land in Europe, considering its distribution from west to east? Did it arrive from Caspian Iberia on boats that sailed up Volga river, along the south Baltic coast, and then landed in Ireland Iberia and finally ended up in Atlantic Iberia? Or was the other way round?


Now what is very interesting is the culture that comes after the funnel beaker culture and which is a continuation of the funnel beaker culture: the Corded Ware culture. If we have a look at the spread of the Corded Ware culture, we see that it corresponds with the distribution of Baltic Slavic and Germanic languages. It also corresponds with the distribution of the R1a Y chromosome as well I2 chromosome in Europe.


http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DNA-Testing/message/1226




It also corresponds with the territory between river Elbe and river Volga the western most and eastern most edges of the Baltic - Caspian trade route. This is the territory which represents the mixing ground between I2 and R1a and, i believe, the birth place of the (Indo) Europeans. If we look at the distribution of the I2 chromosome, we see that both I2a and I2b have spikes around Volga river. Is this because of the ancient Volga trade route? I think so.


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml




If we look at the I2a and I2b distribution in Europe we clearly see that the Balkan Baltic region jumps out as the homeland of the I2. This is the exact place where we later find the Celts, and south western Slavs, Germanics and Balts. The same people the same place the same genes, the same language...


Now the last but not the least. Our Mushki who came from the Balkans never appear in Hittite records as a separate nation. Is it because Hitties new that Mushi means men, solders, lords and is not a name for a tribe? Were Mushki just Hittite solders? If we look at the distribution of the Balkan I2a Y chromosome we see that it closely corresponds with the borders of the old Hittite empire and even better with the borders of the Asyrian empire and Sumeran empire. Is this a coincidence? I don't think so. We know that the Vinca type artifacts started appearing in Mesopotamia in the mid 4th millennium BC, right after Vincans decided to go and conquer the world. They brought with them their genes, their culture and their shoes. The clue is in the shoe. :)


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer

Yetos
21-05-13, 21:49
Interesting alternative story/theory,
Indeed.

dublin
22-05-13, 11:24
thanks Yetos. I thought no one was reading all this and i was talking to myself. again. :)

dublin
22-05-13, 14:31
Speaking about the Mushki and the link between the Serbs, the Irish and the Georgians i came across this article today which says that based on the frequency of the oldest genetic marker HG2 (no idea what that is so would be grateful if someone would explain it to me and the others), Serbs are more related to the Irish, Scandinavians and the Georgians than to the rest of the Slavs.

Here is the article in Serbian:

http://www.novosti.rs/vesti/naslovna/reportaze/aktuelno.293.html:433640-Srbi-po-genima-blizi-Ircima-nego-Rusima#.UZFB7aYL8P0.facebook

According to the article Serbs have the most of this HG2 (what ever it is) and here is the concentration and the spreading path diagram. It shows that the gene has originated in Serbia and has then spread towards Georgia and towards Scandinavia and Ireland...

http://www.novosti.rs/upload/images/2013//05/13n/0513-Najstariji-gen_N.jpg

It talks about some research done by Graham Coop. I believe this is the correct article about the results of the research:

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1001555

nordicwarbler
22-05-13, 15:55
You're seeing connections everywhere.

I'm not saying that you aren't onto something... but you need to clean this up.

That being said, I talked to an older Irish woman a few days ago and she knew much about Celtic/Island myth I'm guessing from being immersed in the culture. She smiled when I mentioned the Firbolg and said without a doubt they were from Viking stock (really proto Viking stock).

Taranis
22-05-13, 16:08
thanks Yetos. I thought no one was reading all this and i was talking to myself. again. :)

Dublin, what if I told you that Slavic languages were spoken only in a relatively small area in Eastern Europe as late as the 400s AD, and that Serbians as a distinct ethnic group did not come into existence until after the migration period? What if I told you that this was the mainstream view?

What I would like to know from you is, what do you find so unbearable about this view that you go through such endless lengths and spend so much time and effort to work on this?

dublin
22-05-13, 16:17
hi Nordicwabler


You're seeing connections everywhere. I'm not saying that you aren't onto something... but you need to clean this up.

No not everywhere.:smile: But there are some connections which you can see only if you compare multidisciplinary data. And this is what is popping out here. This is also why I am presenting the data in this way, so that connections become obvious. But as i said this is just a collection of notes which describes my path to the final discovery of (what i think is) the origin of the old European gods and finally to the vincan religion. I could go and just present the final discovery (the vincan religion) which prompted me to publish all this, but presenting it this way will force me to think about everything again, double check everything and see if anything new popped up to fill in the blanks. And its more fun as well. :smile:

dublin
22-05-13, 16:38
Taranis


Dublin, what if I told you that Slavic languages were spoken only in a relatively small area in Eastern Europe as late as the 400s AD, and that Serbians as a distinct ethnic group did not come into existence until after the migration period? What if I told you that this was the mainstream view?


I would say great, i respect this view and anyone who supports it. They must have a great amount of evidence to support their view, which would allow them to quickly show that everything i said here is wrong. I would like to see that evidence. Thanks.



What I would like to know from you is, what do you find so unbearable about this view that you go through such endless lengths and spend so much time and effort to work on this?

You see taranis, you think that i do this from some inferiority complex point of view or maybe superiority complex point of view. You think that i am trying to prove that Serbians are older or Better or more important then the mainstream view says. Maybe this is how you approach history, like a tool for making your nation look better and others worse. You can't understand that anyone would spend time investigating history because they are just interested in history??? You can't understand that there are people who don't care what the latest party line is and are just interested in finding the truth??? You can't understand that some people just enjoy investigative work more that learning official mainstream views by heart.


I hope this answers your questions. And i hope that you guys allow me to present my finds to the end this time and not close this thread just because you don't agree with what i am saying?

LeBrok
22-05-13, 17:11
What we are saying is that you don't have the evidence, and what you presenting as proof is just your fantazy.

There are more open minded people here, on this web site, than in general population. So if no one here can see your connections and your truth, it is not from lack of good will and trying to see through your eyes. It rather means it is not there, it means that you are wrong. It means that your mind is playing tricks on you, believing in connections and patterns that don't exist.

dublin
22-05-13, 17:38
Dublin, what if I told you that Slavic languages were spoken only in a relatively small area in Eastern Europe as late as the 400s AD

Taranis just one more thing: from you question it is obvious that you did not bother actually reading what i wrote. Because if you did, you would have seen that i have said in one of the first posts that South Slavs were Slavicised, and that what i have discovered is the pre-Slavic layer in the Serbian (South Slavic) languages and culture. If you did read what i wrote here you would have seen that again and again there is common cultural and linguistic link between south Slavic, Germanic and Gaelic people which does not exists between south Slavs and other Slavs. This link goes all the way to prehistory and is, I believe, based on common genes, namely I2 gene.

LeBrock



What we are saying is that you don't have the evidence, and what you presenting as proof is just your fantazy.

Please show me on concrete example from what i wrote which fantasy have i interpreted as evidence. All i am hearing from you is general negativity and not one proof that what i am saying here is wrong.


There are more open minded people here, on this web site, than in general population. So if no one here can see your connections and your truth, it is not from lack of good will and trying to see through your eyes. It rather means it is not there, it means that you are wrong. It means that your mind is playing tricks on you, believing in connections and patterns that don't exist.

I don't see anyone else calling this a fantasy??? And don't think that everything thinks like you or Taranis. That would be a fantasy...

dublin
22-05-13, 18:21
Serb, Sarb, Sirb. All different writing and pronunciation of of the same name for the mountain people of Central Europe.


Here is a peculiar dance from Romania called Sirbian (Serbian) dance. What does it remind you of?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirba


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GDN9NSAo-WM

Taranis
22-05-13, 18:44
Taranis

I would say great, i respect this view and anyone who supports it. They must have a great amount of evidence to support their view, which would allow them to quickly show that everything i said here is wrong. I would like to see that evidence. Thanks.

Plenty of evidence? Yes, see, I know this. You probably also know this. It's not my duty (even though more than once, I have labeled as doing just that) to uphold orthodoxy. It's not my duty here to defend orthodoxy, as it can very well defend itself. The question that I would like to ask is: do you understand the mainstream point of view? If that answer is 'no', I would like to ask you if you actually have ever genuinely bothered trying to understand it, or trying to understand the methods? If I had to guess, I would say that the answer to that would be also 'no', as you seem to be under the impression that it is a monolithic dogma that you have to memorize from A to Z, which it isn't.


You see taranis, you think that i do this from some inferiority complex point of view or maybe superiority complex point of view. You think that i am trying to prove that Serbians are older or Better or more important then the mainstream view says. Maybe this is how you approach history, like a tool for making your nation look better and others worse.

You can't understand that anyone would spend time investigating history because they are just interested in history??? You can't understand that there are people who don't care what the latest party line is and are just interested in finding the truth??? You can't understand that some people just enjoy investigative work more that learning official mainstream views by heart.

See, what I am missing is that at no point in you are stating why exactly you believe the mainstream opinion to be wrong. It appears to be a foregone conclusion you already did before even starting this thread. Haven't you wondered how people get to that view. Why and how, according to you, are entire generations of scientists so wrong?


I hope this answers your questions. And i hope that you guys allow me to present my finds to the end this time and not close this thread just because you don't agree with what i am saying?

Actually, it doesn't. I would like to ask another question here indead: do you think I would react any differently if you were trying disprove Einstein's theory of relativity or the theory of evolution?

Cambrius (The Red)
22-05-13, 19:27
Plenty of evidence? Yes, see, I know this. You probably also know this. It's not my duty (even though more than once, I have labeled as doing just that) to uphold orthodoxy. It's not my duty here to defend orthodoxy, as it can very well defend itself. The question that I would like to ask is: do you understand the mainstream point of view? If that answer is 'no', I would like to ask you if you actually have ever genuinely bothered trying to understand it, or trying to understand the methods? If I had to guess, I would say that the answer to that would be also 'no', as you seem to be under the impression that it is a monolithic dogma that you have to memorize from A to Z, which it isn't.



See, what I am missing is that at no point in you are stating why exactly you believe the mainstream opinion to be wrong. It appears to be a foregone conclusion you already did before even starting this thread. Haven't you wondered how people get to that view. Why and how, according to you, are entire generations of scientists so wrong?



Actually, it doesn't. I would like to ask another question here indead: do you think I would react any differently if you were trying disprove Einstein's theory of relativity or the theory of evolution?

From what I can see, it appears that the linkages that Dublin presents are tenuous at best. The overwhelming majority of Atlantic commercial and cultural exchange took place in the Atlantic facade. However, the "Atlanteans" also apparently had some considerable contact with what is now Italy and the Eastern Mediterranean.

inver2b1
22-05-13, 20:23
Proto gaelic in the balkans, based on what?
You are linking all of Europe with Serbia in this thread, are you proposing Serbia as a womb of European nations?

ebAmerican
22-05-13, 21:53
I don't doubt your Serbian Irish connection, but it was from a Dacian retreat (Eastern Serbia). If you follow the trail of I2a2a1 (M284) it becomes clear. M233 into Germany and Sweden probably came from Dacian migration caused by Scythian and Celtic migration into the area. These groups mixed to some extant, and is why there is British Isle myths about Scythian origins. The Celts come from the same stock as Italics (Celto-Italic), and were probably very accompanying to other cultural and religious ideas as the later Italic/Latin Romans. It was this mix of Dacian,Celts, and Germanic peoples where you see your similarities. These similarities happened before the Roman conquest of Brittan, but no earlier than the Indo-European Dacian. There was probably some remote religious connections from the neolithic I2 Vinca incorporated into specific Dacian tribes, that mixed with Celts and Germans who carried it to Brittan during the Belgic expansion in southern Brittan, then to Ireland in the 6th century AD.

Yetos
22-05-13, 22:13
From what I can see, it appears that the linkages that Dublin presents are tenuous at best. The overwhelming majority of Atlantic commercial and cultural exchange took place in the Atlantic facade. However, the "Atlanteans" also apparently had some considerable contact with what is now Italy and the Eastern Mediterranean.

Minoan Cretans merchants, trade or gather tin from Britain before 1500 BC as show in ship wreckage,
I even heard about dates 1800 to 2300 years BC from some extreme searches.

Yetos
22-05-13, 22:21
Proto gaelic in the balkans, based on what?
You are linking all of Europe with Serbia in this thread, are you proposing Serbia as a womb of European nations?

Danube Basin and Pannoni Basin are basic for the whole IE theories, especially for the west and North Europe, as express by IE that support the North of Black sea origin (like Gibutas)
Yamnaa-Cotofeni-Vatin-Vucocar-Alps is a road/passage with trails of earlier copper and later Bronze (Rudna Glava).
the other is Yamnaa-rivers-Baltic/Pommerania-Alps (Cotofeni maybe include or exclude) a road later know backwards as amber road of Varrangians

inver2b1
22-05-13, 22:21
I don't doubt your Serbian Irish connection, but it was from a Dacian retreat (Eastern Serbia). If you follow the trail of I2a2a1 (M284) it becomes clear. M233 into Germany and Sweden probably came from Dacian migration caused by Scythian and Celtic migration into the area. These groups mixed to some extant, and is why there is British Isle myths about Scythian origins. The Celts come from the same stock as Italics (Celto-Italic), and were probably very accompanying to other cultural and religious ideas as the later Italic/Latin Romans. It was this mix of Dacian,Celts, and Germanic peoples where you see your similarities. These similarities happened before the Roman conquest of Brittan, but no earlier than the Indo-European Dacian. There was probably some remote religious connections from the neolithic I2 Vinca incorporated into specific Dacian tribes, that mixed with Celts and Germans who carried it to Brittan during the Belgic expansion in southern Brittan, then to Ireland in the 6th century AD.

Scythia is linked to Noahs son Japheth so by having an origin story linked with Scythia you are giving yourself a biblical link, very attarctive to a region that has just adopted christianity. I'm sure Japheth and the Vincans can be linked also.

inver2b1
22-05-13, 22:40
Danube Basin and Pannoni Basin are basic for the whole IE theories, especially for the west and North Europe, as express by IE that support the North of Black sea origin (like Gibutas)
Yamnaa-Cotofeni-Vatin-Vucocar-Alps is a road/passage with trails of earlier copper and later Bronze (Rudna Glava).
the other is Yamnaa-rivers-Baltic-Alps (Cotofeni maybe include or exclude) a road later know backwards as amber road of Varrangians

So is it certain that the Vinca culture played a central role in the spread of the Indo European language to most of Europe?
This thead is like dna/linguistics/tribes hopscotch covering a period from about about 5,000 bc to 800 AD.

Nobody1
22-05-13, 22:57
So is it certain that the Vinca culture played a central role in the spread of the Indo European language to most of Europe?

No definitely not,
on the other hand it has been established (Beyond All Doubt - there never actually was a doubt) that Vinca was a Pre-Indo-European culture and has nothing to do with Indo-Europeans other than being destroyed by them.

More info on Posts #11 & #24 on page 1 of this thread

Reading other posts from other users on this thread,
I have a feeling that this is turning from a discussion, into an intervention for Dublin.

LeBrok
23-05-13, 02:33
Please show me on concrete example from what i wrote which fantasy have i interpreted as evidence. All i am hearing from you is general negativity and not one proof that what i am saying here is wrong.
It is your hypothesis, therefore your duty to prove it, and without the proof all you say is wrong. So far I don't see it here, as well as I didn't see it in your Baltic Slavs-Viking connection with Ireland. All I see here is that you strongly want this to be true, making yourself see things that don't exist. You are a Serb who lives in Ireland. It would be so nice, for you, if these two nations were more related, isn't it?





I don't see anyone else calling this a fantasy??? And don't think that everything thinks like you or Taranis. That would be a fantasy... From last 8 posters I don't see much of agreement with you. Do you see the pattern?

Don't you think that if you had something valid here, some logical and open minded people wouldn't agree with you?

nordicwarbler
23-05-13, 02:48
Dublin, I appreciate the hard work you've put into your theories-- you've sourced your information and have cogent thought processes. I think you're biting off too big off a chunk here though.

Ask most anyone on this site, I'm all for the unorthodox approach. As a suggestion, it may help if you pick two or three major points and stick/defend those; it may then be easier to convince some of those in the mainstream. The scattershot method with an enormous amount of examples becomes difficult to follow... try the laser beam deployment instead.

What is rather interesting about your idea is that I've noticed CODIS DNA testing does seem to pick up on an Ireland/Serbian/Croatian link (at least in my own family's apparent travels).

Of course I realize that CODIS (used by Family Tree DNA) is controversial when used to trace genetic histories... but often where there's smoke there's fire.

**EDIT**
Awaiting a second autosomal test that uses a more accepted approach (23 and me)-- if this also shows an Irish-Serbian-Croatian link then I may help pull your wagon. Please remember though, sometimes less is more when citing examples.

Yetos
23-05-13, 07:25
No definitely not,
on the other hand it has been established (Beyond All Doubt - there never actually was a doubt) that Vinca was a Pre-Indo-European culture and has nothing to do with Indo-Europeans other than being destroyed by them.

More info on Posts #11 & #24 on page 1 of this thread

Reading other posts from other users on this thread,
I have a feeling that this is turning from a discussion, into an intervention for Dublin.

Indeed, Vinca is a pre IE culture,
But Vinca seems to pass a lot of habbitts and technology to IE far more east than Eurasian steppes before destroyed, like Gold metallurgy, burrial with arms, early kurgans,
and after the entrance of arsenic bronze carriers we also see 3 major IE cultures to be developed there before expand to WEST,

the problem is Celts went from Pomerania/Baltic to Alps or from Pannoni Basin/Danube to Alps?

(yet personally I am still fan of minor Asian origin)

dublin
23-05-13, 13:33
Taranis



It's not my duty (even though more than once, I have labeled as doing just that) to uphold orthodoxy. It's not my duty here to defend orthodoxy, as it can very well defend itself.


Yet you seem to be there to remind me that the orthodoxy exists and should not be questioned, but can not actually speak for it and defend it? Are you a believer or knower?


The question that I would like to ask is: do you understand the mainstream point of view? If that answer is 'no', I would like to ask you if you actually have ever genuinely bothered trying to understand it, or trying to understand the methods?

I did look at the mainstream theories (because they are theories).


See, what I am missing is that at no point in you are stating why exactly you believe the mainstream opinion to be wrong.



It is because of so many things which i have found and which can not be explained by the mainstream theories, that i decided to propose my theory. Now if you think that my arguments that i am presenting to support my theory are week, please give me an alternative explanation for anything i said here which would explain it better. This is the reason why i started posting this here, to validate my theory. Now you can help me by actually putting forward arguments or counter arguments, but not by giving speeches. This is just a waste of everyone's time. Sorry.



I would like to ask another question here indead: do you think I would react any differently if you were trying disprove Einstein's theory of relativity or the theory of evolution?

I am not. So let's not go there. And don't try to compare history and exact measurable sciences. The level of measurability and verifiability is completely different.


Cambrius


From what I can see, it appears that the linkages that Dublin presents are tenuous at best. The overwhelming majority of Atlantic commercial and cultural exchange took place in the Atlantic facade. However, the "Atlanteans" also apparently had some considerable contact with what is now Italy and the Eastern Mediterranean.

If by Atlantic facade you mean from north west africa to baltic then you are right. Atlantic facade doesn't stop in the lowlands...

Please read the origin of the Irish race by Mallory. You will see that there were two major cultural exchange routs into British Isles: Mediterranean - Iberian and Balkan - Baltic one. Both equally important.

Inver


Proto gaelic in the balkans, based on what?
You are linking all of Europe with Serbia in this thread, are you proposing Serbia as a womb of European nations?

Actually yes. Because today's Serbia coincides with the old Lepenski vir, Starcevo and Vinca land and old Kelto Ilirian land. It is not strictly speaking Serbia but originally Lower Danube and later the area between Balkan and Baltic.


So is it certain that the Vinca culture played a central role in the spread of the Indo European language tomost of Europe?
I am talking about pre Indo European language layer as well as Indo European language layer. And i think that they are linked. I support one of the two mainstream theories which places the birthplace of the Indo Europeans in Central Europe. They are partially Vincans who went up north and mixed with the stepe people.



This thead is like dna/linguistics/tribes hopscotch covering a period from about about 5,000 bc to 800 AD.


This is because this is the period of the cultural mixing.

abAmerican


I don't doubt your Serbian Irish connection, but it was from a Dacian retreat (Eastern Serbia).

You are actually very close to the truth. The area is correct (lower Carpathian mountains) but the contact time started much earlier. It continues even today. The same mountain people still live in the central European mountains. Just no one bothered to investigate them until recently.


The Celts come from the same stock as Italics (Celto-Italic), and were probably very accompanying to other cultural and religious ideas as the later Italic/Latin Romans.

You are right here in that you can trace Sabine (Early Roman) culture straight to lower Carpathian mountains. I am planning to write about this in detail. It is exactly that connection that led me to Vinca.


It was this mix of Dacian,Celts, and Germanic peoples where you see your similarities. These similarities happened before the Roman conquest of Brittan, but no earlier than the Indo-European Dacian.

There are, as i said in my very first post on this thread, many layers of connection, because this connection lasted so long. One period of intense connection is end of second and beginning of the first millennium bc, the start of iron age in the Balkans which predates the migration of the Ilyrian tribes from balkans to Italy. As i said it is the link between Rome, Ilyria, Arcadia, Thessaly, Thrakia that lead me to Gaia and then to Vinca.


There was probably some remote religious connections from the neolithic I2 Vinca incorporated into specific Dacian tribes, that mixed with Celts and Germans who carried it to Brittan during the Belgic expansion in southern Brittan, then to Ireland in the 6th century AD.There was probably some remote religious connections from the neolithic I2 Vinca incorporated into specific Dacian tribes, that mixed with Celts and Germans who carried it to Brittan during the Belgic expansion in southern Brittan, then to Ireland in the 6th century AD.

This would be fine except you find Irish (gaelic, Ilyrian, vincan???) roots in Minoan, archaic Greek, Ilyrian, Roman toponimes, town names, god names...The only explanation is that someone speaking (gaelic???) was in the Balkans a very long time ago...

Example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crete (Κρήτη)


he current name of Crete first appears in Mycenaean Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greek) as ke-re-si-jo "Cretan" in Linear B (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_B) texts. In Ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek), the name Crete (Κρήτη) first appears in Homer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer)'s Odyssey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odyssey).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crete#cite_note-4) Its etymology is unknown. One speculative proposal derives it from a hypothetical Luvian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luwian_language)word *kursatta (cf. kursawar "island", kursattar "cutting, sliver").[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crete#cite_note-5) In Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Latin), it became Creta.

http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb11.html#crith


crith - shake, quiver, Irish, Early Irish crith, Welsh cryd, Old Welsh crit, *kritu-; Anglo-Saxon hriða, fever, German ritten, fever. See crath (http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb10.html#crath), to which crith has been suggested as cognate (root [email protected], krot,kret.

Now i don't know which etymology is better? What do you think?


Yetos thank you for your support. Balkan Baltic rout existed as a trading route in the second millennium bc as can be seen from this Micenian style fortress from Slovakia which dates to 1500 bc. The style of the fortress is the same like in Mycenae. The complete absence of any tools and agricultural material suggests that the fortress was a guard post on the balkan baltic trade route:

http://www.spisskystvrtok.sk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5&Itemid=16
http://www.hradiska.sk/2010/06/spissky-stvrtok-slovenske-mykeny.html

Both texts are in Slovakian. If anyone can find anything in English please post it here.

leBrock


You are a Serb who lives in Ireland. It would be so nice, for you, if these two nations were more related, isn't it?

Have a look at this. When I was I kid I remember seeing an old wooden cross standing in the middle of a field just outside my dad’s village. It was at the edge of the village land, the same like in Ireland and other Celtic lands where holly land is the land that separates tribes. It was a place where village "slava" or the ancestral celebration was celebrated every year. It was always covered in flowers and people used to bring food and drink to it and light candles in front of it. This is still a living tradition in Serbia...


Imagine my surprise when later in life i discovered "celtic" crosses...


http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/3010/dscn3999.jpg
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/420/copyofzapisdobardesktop.jpg
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/186/leskovacstarisrpskikrstbl6.th.jpg
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5314/copy4ofvlasotince4.jpg
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/211/copy3ofvlasotince4.jpg
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/7742/copy2ofvlasotince4.jpg
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/5350/copyofvlasotince4.jpg
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3842/copyofspomenicileksovac.jpg

So for me going to Ireland was like going to my second home in a way...

You will not find any mention of this in any Serbian history books. No one cares. As if these people and their culture doesn't exist. The only work ever written on this is an obscure little book written by a local school teacher come historian. Any explanations?

By the way the same culture exists in the east Baltic, the land of Pruteni (Prussians). I am about to talk about this if I ever get a chance....

Also did you know that the first "Celtic" crosses came to Ireland from England and were based on earlier wooden crosses and that the oldest wooden "celtic" cross was found in Viking dublin?


The same area of Serbia has a peculiar grammatical construct. They use "na" to express belonging:


Q: "na koga je ovo kuče" (of or on whom is this hound) whose hound is this? This implies belonging or owning being equaled to having the thing in question on one person. This construct is used only for material goods and animals and not for members of the family. This construct is ancient and comes from the time when everything you owned was on you.


A: na petra. (of or on peter)


ovo je kuče na petra (this is the hound on or of petar)

This construct exists in Irish and in this dialect of Serbian which is spoken in my birth place. Any explanation?

nordicwabler


Dublin, I appreciate the hard work you've put into your theories-- you've sourced your information and have cogent thought processes.

Thank you.


I think you're biting off too big off a chunk here though.

Don't you think i know this? This is why i am posting all this here. Lets have it all out on paper, and then we can take what ever bit you want and go into as much detail as you want. This is the idea of this exercise. I can't do this all on my own.

inver2b1
23-05-13, 15:45
You still didn’t explain why you think proto gaelic originated in the Balkans, from what I’ve read gaelic and the British p celtic langauge went their separate ways about 2,000 to 3,000 years ago making Ireland the birth of proto gaelic. It’s not as if you’re the first person to look for language similarities and this would have been recognized ages ago, this thread is confirmation bias at its finest.

dublin
23-05-13, 16:19
You still didn’t explain why you think proto gaelic originated in the Balkans, from what I’ve read gaelic and the British p celtic langauge went their separate ways about 2,000 to 3,000 years ago making Ireland the birth of proto gaelic. It’s not as if you’re the first person to look for language similarities and this would have been recognized ages ago

I spoke to some Irish linguists about exactly this. Their answer is no one bothered comparing Irish and South Slavic languages before.
And I do put big question mark when i say Gaelic. I believe, and i have said this many times before, that Gaelic is just one component of Irish language. The component i am talking about is probably not Gaelic. Or maybe it is. I don't know. All I know is that there are many toponimes from the Balkans from the earliest times which can only be explained in Irish.

Like Sar mountain, with no etymology in Slavic, means Highest (It is) mountain it that region.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0ar_Mountains
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

Or all the rocky mountain tops with "Tor" in their name, like Durmitor. Tor means tall rock in Irish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durmitor

I have no explanation for this except that someone speaking some language which later influenced Irish lived in the Balkans when these mountains were named. Maybe you have a better explanation.


this thread is confirmation bias at its finest.

This is why you should present some counter arguments which would make the discussion more balanced. but not "it can't be, someone would have thought of it before" kind of arguments...

dublin
23-05-13, 17:43
Opanak



Opanak (Serbian Cyrillic: Опанак; Macedonian: Опинок; Bulgarian: цървул[a]) are traditional peasant shoes worn in Southeastern Europe (specifically Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Macedonia, Serbia). The attributes of the Opanci (name in plural) are: a construction of leather, lack of laces, durable, and various ending on toes. In Serbia, the design of the horn-like ending on toes indicates the region of origin. The concept, and the word, exists in Romania (as opincă) which is borrowed from Slavic. The Opanci are considered a national symbol of Serbia, and the traditional peasant footwear for people in the Balkan region.



Official Etymology



Serbo-Croatian "opanak", and Bulgarian and Macedonian "опинок", all ultimately derive from Proto-Slavic *opьnъkъ, which itself is a compound of the prepositional *o(b)- "around, on, etc." with final *b assimilated and the resulting greminated consonant cluster *pp being simplified to *p, and the vrddhi-lenghthened root vowel of the verb *pęti, originally meaning "to strain, move" (cf. modern standard Serbo-Croatian verbs conveying the same notion such as nàpēti/на̀пе̄ти, pròpēti/про̀пе̄ти, ràspēti/ра̀спе̄ти, pòpēti/по̀пе̄ти..), but subsequently coming to mean "to climb" (whence the meaning of modern standard Serbo-Croatian pȇti/пе̑ти, pènjati/пѐњати). So literally, opanak would roughly mean "climbing footwear".[1]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opanak


Here is an excellent web site on European peasant footwear:


http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope/Costume/opinci.htm



The oldest mention of a footwear that looks like Opanak is found in Azerbaijan. In Sanscrit, the footwear similar to opanak is called upanah (upana). Official etymology is that it comes from upa - to tie up, and nat to bend. It is still worn in certain parts of India as part of Ceremonial dress. We can find depictions of opanak in Iran, Afghanistan, Mesopotamia, Asia Minor, and in Europe from Balkans to Baltic and in Ireland.


In the Balkans only male opanak has the "beak", the front part that curls upwards. It is a symbol of a male genitalia.


Now interestingly enough one culture where we see opanak everywhere are Hittites.




Hittit opanak


Seal of Muwattalli I, depicted in the embrace of the Storm God of Heaven. His Hittite name ‘Muwattalli’ is written on the left, while his Hurrian name, ‘Šarri-Teššup’, is written on the right.


http://www.hittites.info/Images/muwattalli_1_seal_1.gif




Rock inscription of Muwattalli I at Fraktin


http://www.hittites.info/Images/muwattalli_1_fraktin.gif




Yazılıkaya (Hatusha)


http://www.atamanhotel.com/whc/hattusa-yazilikaya-relief.html


http://www.hattuscha.de/02-135_42ff-345x256.jpg
http://www.hattuscha.de/02-135_64-250x346.jpg
http://www.hattuscha.de/02-143_81-300x361.jpg


Various rock carvings


http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9490/3100408082c9526a6846.jpg
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/1126/0038ji.jpg
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/2857/38738766mimg2803zf7.jpg
http://antique.mrugala.net/Mesopotamie/Images/Hittites%20-%20offrande.jpg
http://www.hittitemonuments.com/bor/bor05.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/21j4toi.jpg




Ilirian Opanak


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/HallstattIllyrianCeltic.jpg


The Oldest Known Well-Preserved Leather Shoe from Armenia


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areni-1_shoe#cite_note-2


Irih early medieval leather shoe


http://www.alia.ie/tirnanog/sochis/xviii136.jpg
http://www.alia.ie/tirnanog/sochis/xviiib.html




Now here is the best bit:


In Irish we again have a word opanak and the word for sole of the foot taban identical to the corresponding words in Serbian. We also have the complete etymology of these words:


bonn - base, sole of the foot
tob - quick, instant
tobaine - quickness, suddenness
tobann - sudden, hasty, quick
obann - swift (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobelar)


obann probably comes from o+bonn, on sole of the foot, what we put on sole of the foot, on the base and which makes us swift.


ach - an ending for making a noun from an adjective


oban + ack = obannach = opanak = what makes us swift


in Serbian a word taban means sole of the foot. Tabanati means to run, to go quickly.


Tobann = T+obann = Taban - Sole of the foot, Quick

In Serbian there is also a word "opa!" exclamation which people say when they are jumping and which also means to jump. "opati" means to jump.


How did these two words get to be in Serbian, other south Slavic languages and Irish? I think that it has to be second millennium BC at the time when Mushki went to Asia minor to form Hittite empire. Mushki, the manly solders with opanak which has a beak pointing up to show that they are Mushki (men)? Or maybe even earlier? Any ideas?

dublin
24-05-13, 13:18
Papuča (plural: Papuče pronounced papuche)


Papuča is a word which in Serbian today means slipper but is actually just another word for the same type of simple leather sole footwear of type opanak.




Here is the official etymology:



From Ottoman Turkish پابوج (pâbûc), from Persian پاپوش (pā-puš).


http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/papu%C4%8Da




Now what is the word for slipper in various languages:


Albanian - heqël
Afrikaans - pantoffel
Arabic - something that sounds like shimsam


Here is a discussion on various words for shoes used in Arabic languages, just to make sure the word did not come from Arabic languages:


http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1272771


Armenian - hoghat’ap’
Azerbaijani - otaq ayaqqabısı
Basque - eskarpia (Sout), eskarpiña (old B) n. ‘slipper’.
Berber - bálgha
Belorussian - Тапачкі (tapachki)
Bosnian - papuča
Bulgarian - чехъл (chehl)
Catalan - sabatilla
Croatian - papuča
Czech - pantofel
Danish - tøffel
Dutch - pantoffel
English - slipper
Estonian - suss
Finnish - tohveli
French - pantoufle, babouche (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babouche)
Galician - chinelos
German - Pantoffel
Greek - pantófla
Gujarati - Campala
Hindi - Slipara
Hungarian - papucs
Italian - pantofola
Latin - CREPIDA
Latvian - tupele or Čības
Lithuanian - šlepetė or šliurė
Macedonian - пантофли (pantofli)
Maltese - krepiduli, papoċċ
Norwegian - tøffel
Persian - pāpoosh (پاپوش), from pa "foot" + poosh "covering."
Polish - pantofel
Portugese - chinelo
Romaian - papuc
Russian - тапочка (tapuchka)
Serbian - папуча (papucha)
Slovak - pantofel
Spanish - zapatilla, pantufla, babucha (clearly showing influence from many languages)
Swedish - toffel
Turkish - terlik
Ukrainian - Гапочка (gapochka)
Yiddish - Ştʻqşwk




Here is a discussion on Iberian words for slipper and shoe:



Iberian Peninsula and recorded also north of the Pyrenees: Hispano-Arabic pargha ~ bargha ‘sandals’, sg. parghat (mod. Arabic and Berber bálgha ‘slipper, shoe’), Mozarabic probable *parca, Portuguese alparca ‘sandal’, an apparent Old Cast. alparga ‘sandal’, Arag. and SE Spain albarca id., Valencia abarca {avarca}, Bearn. abarque id. Cast. alpargata id. derives from the same ult. source via Arabic...



http://www.blogseitb.us/basque_boise/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Etymological-Dictionary-of-Basque.pdf


From the above we can see that the word "Papuča" or a similar word is used for a footwear in Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Persian, Ottoman Turkish, French, Spanish but not in Arabic languages, Latin, Greek nor in eastern Slavic and Germanic languages.


Why am i boring you with this?


Because of this:



Pampooties are raw-hide shoes, which were formerly made and worn on the Aran Islands of County Galway, Ireland. They are formed of a single piece of untanned hide folded around the foot and stitched with twine or a leather strap.[1]
Hide from the buttocks was most often used. The hair was usually left and this improved the shoe's grip.[2] The raw hide is kept flexible by use and the constant damp conditions of Western Ireland. However the shoes are not made to last. They are prone to rot and were usually kept for as little as a month or less.[3]
Pampooties are similar to the Scottish cuaran shoes, and are the precursors to ghillies, Celtic dance shoes. They are also similar in appearance to American moccasins.[2] Ancient shoes found preserved from Stone Age Europe have a similar design.[4]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pampootie


These early shoes (slippers) were being worn in Ireland as early as the late iron age and early medieval period. This is confirmed by the examples found in Irish bogs and which can be seen in the Irish national museum. They were still made and worn in 1950 in exactly the same way in Aran Islands, the most remote and westernmost Island off the coast of Ireland. They were probably worn in Ireland even earlier as they represent the the most rudimentary type of leather footwear and are almost identical to the Armenian prehistoric shoe. Here is an instruction how to make the Pampooties and how to wear them:


http://www.rosieandglenn.co.uk/TheLibrary/Costume/CnTGuides/HowtoMake/EarlyASCostume/EarlyShoes.htm


Here is an article about 18th century Scottish highland shoes. In the article you can among other find this:



Just like the Native American, the Highlander lived in a society where hunting and limited migration formed a large part of daily life. The practicality of the bag-shoe, like the Native American moccasin, was hard to improve upon.



http://www.appins.org/pampooties.htm


What this is saying is that up until 20th century peasants did not have fashion. What worked was made and was used and was worn unchanged for thousands of years. These shoes are a perfect example. Because there is no change in the object, there is certainly no change in the name of the object. So we can assume that the name for these Irish and Scottish shoes was pampootie (paputie, papuche) at least as far back as the early medieval time.


Ron Pinhasi, the man who found the Armenian prehistoric shoe and a lecturer in archaeology at the University College Cork in Cork, Ireland said:



Interestingly, the Armenian shoe is very similar to the “pampooties” worn in the Aran Islands on Ireland’s west coast up to the 1950s. “In fact, enormous similarities exist between the manufacturing technique and style of the [Armenian] shoe and those found across Europe at later periods, suggesting that this type of shoe was worn for thousands of years across a large and environmentally diverse region.”




http://today.ucla.edu/portal/ut/PRN-2-world-s-oldest-shoe-160052.aspx




In England we find this old word:



Babouche - Etymology: from French babouche and Arabic بابوش, from Persian pāpoosh (پاپوش), from pa "foot" + poosh "covering." a chiefly oriental slipper made without heel or quarters.[2][3]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Persian_origin




Now can anyone here explain to me how is it possible that if the origin of the word pampootie (paputie, papuche, Papuče) is indeed Persian, we find pampootie in Iron Age Ireland?


Unless the origin of the word is not Persian but it actually comes from the prehistoric Balkans again.


What if word pampootie (paputie, papuche, Papuče) originated in the Balkans and was brought to Ireland at some stage of the Vinca or some later bronze or iron age migration? And what if word was brought to Persia and north Africa from the Balkans during Ottoman time when Ottoman Turkish was hugely influenced by the South Slavic languages?



The Slavic influence


One of the unexpected results of the Ottoman expansion was an active penetration of Slavic ethnics into the Ottoman armed forces (Janissaries) and even into the ruling elite. Serbians were particularly numerous and the Serbian language could be heard in the Ottoman court; it was used in official documents alongside with Turkish. The Italian historian Paolo Giovio who compiled a book on Turkish history, wrote: “At the court [of Suleyman The Magnificent] several languages are spoken. Turkish is the language of the ruler; Arabic is the language of the Muslim Law, Koran; Slavic (sclavonica) is mostly used by the Janissaries, and Greek is the language of the populace of the capital and other cities of Greece.”
The Polish traveller Strijkowskij wrote that in 1574, when he was in Istanbul, he heard with his own ears kobzari (bards) singing songs in Serbian in the streets and in the taverns about victories of valiant Muslims over the Christians.
Bassano, an Italian visitor to Suleyman’s court, claimed that “he [the sultan] respected and highly valued his wife [Roxolana] and understood her native language to some extent.” One of the sultan’s viziers was Rustem-pasha, a Serb or a Croat.
Ukraine, except for some areas and not for long, was never conquered by the Ottomans but it became a steady source of supplies of white slaves to the empire. The Crimean Tartars were the main suppliers. Mykhailo Lytvyn, a Ukrainian diplomat in the service of the Lithuanian government, wrote in his memoirs dating to 1548–1551 that the krymchaky (Crimean Tartars) engaged only in two trades — cattle-breeding and capturing Ukrainians to be sold to the Ottomans as slaves. “The ships that often come to their ports from across the sea, bring weapons, clothes and horses which are exchanged for slaves who are loaded into these ships. And all the Ottoman bazaars are full of these slaves who are sold and bought to be used in the households, to be resold, to be given as presents… There was one Jew, amazed at the great numbers of these slaves to be seen at the slave markets, who asked whether there were any people left in the land where these slaves are brought from.”



http://www.wumag.kiev.ua/index2.php?param=pgs20044/74


If the footwear and its name pampootie (paputie, papuche, Papuče) originate in the Balkans, that would explain the distribution of this word and the type of footwear much better i think. But is there anything else that could prove that pampootie and Papuče are one and the same and that they come from some old proto Irish-Serbian language? There is:





Pampooties are similar to the Scottish cuaran shoes, and are the precursors to ghillies, Celtic dance shoes



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pampootie



Ghillies are specially designed shoes used for several types of dance. They are soft shoes, similar to ballet shoes. They are used by women in Irish dance, by men in Scottish country dance, and by men and women in Highland dance.
Ghillies are also sometimes known by a variety of other names that include: light shoes, pomps, pumps, and soft shoes.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghillies



The following is a brief outline of regional Scottish footwear forms in the first half of the 18th century. The terms "pampootie" (Hebridean and Outer Isles), "cuaran" (Highland Gaelic or Erse), and "ghillie" (or "gillie," a misnomer derived from the Gaelic for servant or attendant) all denote one specific form of footwear ‹ the primitive bag-shoe or European moccasin fashioned from hairy rawhide ‹ generally known as "rivelin." Examples of this form of footwear go back to the early Bronze Age in Northern Europe...



http://www.appins.org/pampooties.htm




This is the important bit: "ghillie" (or "gillie," a misnomer derived from the Gaelic for servant or attendant)...


In Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian (Dinaric languages) there is a word "gilje" which is a word for shoes. "giljati" is a word for walking. In Gaelic we have gillie a servant, someone who you send to walk for you and do errands and "ghillie" for poor people's papuche or opanke shoes.


This again shows the connection between Irish and Serbian culture and language which does not exist in other European languages and which i believe points to their coexistence in a very distant past, probably in the Balkans during Vinca time or even earlier.

Interestingly the Armenia (Georgia), Ireland and England and the Balkans are again the same area where we find mushki and bregians...




If anyone has a better explanation for this i would like to hear it...

kamani
24-05-13, 15:49
Serbian - Papuča (pronounced papuche)
English - slipper
Albanian - papuce (pronounced papuche)
Norwegian - papoċċ
French - babouche
Spanish - babucha
Russian - тапочка (tapuchka)

It looks like it's an old Indo-European word. It has no particular connection with serbian.

dublin
24-05-13, 16:36
Kamani


It looks like it's an old Indo-European word. It has no particular connection with serbian.

Look again at all the languages where the word Papucha is used. They are south Slavic and surrounding languages where the word came from south Slavic. In Spanish and french the word came in from north African and is not the main word used in both french and spanish as they say themselves. in Russian it probably came along the atlantic - baltic- volga route.

I made a mistake about Norwegian. Norwegian word is actually tøffel. papoċċ is used in Malta probably from north Africa. As Malta is just next to Norway on the list i made cut and paste error...Sorry

If you are looking at Indoeuropean word look at Latin and Greek and all the pantófla words you find everywhere...by the way in Serbian we also have word patofna for slipper...

So Indoeuropean possible but not very likely when you add the words "gilje" and "opanak" in the mixture...

Thanks for your post anyway...

dublin
24-05-13, 18:42
Maybe pampootie (paputie, papuche, Papuche) all come from papuk or papak or have the same root with the word papak. Papak is Serbian word for cloven hoof found in sheep, pigs, goats, cows and deer.


http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/papak



A cloven hoof is a hoof split into two toes. This is found on members of the mammalian order Artiodactyla. Examples of mammals that possess this type of hoof are deer and sheep.[1]
The two digits of cloven hoofed animals are homologous to the third and fourth fingers of the hand. They are called claws and are named for their relative location on the foot: the outer, or lateral, claw and the inner, or medial claw. The space between the two claws is called the interdigital cleft; the area of skin is called the interdigital skin. The hard outer covering of the hoof is called the hoof wall, or horn. It is a hard surface, similar to the human fingernail.[2]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloven_hoof


The hard outer covering can be pilled off with a knife and it resembles a shoe a covering for the soft bottom of the foot or hoof.



In folklore and popular culture, a cloven hoof has long been associated with the Devil.


This is quite interesting as it gives us a link into Irish:


péac - peak, point
áibhirseoir - adversary, devil


péac ón áibhirseoir - expression meaning limb of satan, and because satan has sheep or goats limbs, the limb of satan is cloven hoof of a sheep or a goat. so péac is cloven hoof as well.


ba - root word for many words associated with sheep, and an onomatopoeic word for sheep as well so it probably is the old word for sheep.


babag - tassle, bunch or hair, wool
bachlag - a shoot, a curl, Irish bachlóg. This word is intersting.
bachal - shepards staff
bàbhun - enclosure for cattle (sheep), ring fort. In medieval Serbian and Bosnian documents there is repeated mention of Babuni as being the simple folk, sheppards, mountain people, non christians and babun language which was banned.
bàdhan - a churchyard (Sutherland), i.e. "enclosure", same as bàbhun.
bán - white (like wool. olann (irish) = woolen (english) = vunen (serbian))
banair - sheep fold
Cabhan = grassy hill
Gabhan - cattle pond. In serbian shepard is čoban, but shepard's hooded rain gown is kabanica (gabanica). Was the original word for shepard in Serbian Gaban?


bá - stupid (in Serbia we say stupid like a sheep)


so


ba + péac = bapéac = papak = cloven hoof...

bapéaca - bapuca - pampoota -papuča - what is pulled over a hoof or a foot to protected it???

Interesting anyway.

Yetos
24-05-13, 18:54
the Greek word is neither pantofla neither papucce,

the word is σανδαλιον υποδημα υποποδιον πασουμιον etc

pantofla papucce exist in modern Greek but are loan

yet papucce can be explain in Greek as component υπο+πους
the word is πους pus means foot is IE
but
nomit pus
posses podos
aff poda
so as component we use podos instead of pus (ποδος πους)
so in greek the component form for shoe goes υποποδιον
and if covers all foot is epapodion
but as pus (foot pied) in another IE language can be used as pus instead of podos.
so papucce means around and top of foot επα+πους -ε = πα+πους = papucce.
simmilar is pandofla pandoffel, compare pied in Francais etc

but as papucce pendoffel etc I think is different not PIE but from a later daughter language, but based upon IE word for foot πους pied etc

dublin
27-05-13, 15:02
Hi Yetos

Thanks for this. It is good to get an opinion of a native speaker. The Balkan language i am talking about predates the arrival of Greeks to the Balkan. So I am not surprised to find these words in Greek.

I have this correspondence with someone regarding my last post on another thread. I believe it is worth posting it here as well.


hi Garry


Thanks for your help and suggestions.



I think you are indulging in a little etymological shoe-horning in order to forge a connection between Irish and Serbian words that may not exist.




I like how shoehorning sounds in this context :)


Just few clarifications:


péac ón áibhirseoir = 'limb of Satan'




This is not my interpretation. I found it in Focloir Gaeilge-Bearla/Irish-English Dictionary as one of the phrases where the word péac is used. Now from this i deduced, and maybe i am wrong, that péac can also mean a sheep or goat or cow limlb (cloven hoof). I hope this makes things a little clearer about this etymology. By the way i recommend the dictionary it is excellent.



This seems to be based upon MacBain again. His etymological dictionary refers to Scottish Gaelic, not Irish.


I try to consult as many sources relating to both Irish and Scottish Gaelic. I do that because some old (Celtic Serbian Irish) words were preserved better in Scotland than in Ireland. In Ireland they were sometimes gaelicised almost beyond recognition.





The Irish for sheep is caora or caorach. It has nothing to do with 'ba'.


Agreed, never claimed that the Irish word for sheep is ba. I said that it might have been. In modern Serbian the word for sheep is ovca, but in old Serbian we find brav or b(a)rav. The reason why i suggested the existence of word "ba" is because from what i have found so far all the major domestic and wild animals in Serbian have onomatopoeic names. So sheep would be "baaaa" or "baeee" or "beee". Why do i think that people originally used characteristic sounds of animals as their names? Because we are talking the beginning of the language. There were no words, yet people wanted to communicate and pass a message. In case of sheep, the message was simple: Look there is a sheep! Except that they did not have a word for sheep and even if someone decided to call a sheep a sheep, he had no way of explaining to the others what sheep is, because there was no language yet. But everyone have seen a sheep, and have heard a sheep. So if you imitate the sound of a sheep, everyone knows what you are talking about. So "baaa" or "ba" conveys the message: "look there is a sheep" perfectly and simply. Later on people invented other words for sheep, but that was much later when they had a language as means to associate these "sheep" words with "sheep" meaning.


In Irish and in Serbian we have similar onomatopoeic name for cow "bo". This comes from the actual sound of cows which is something between "mpbvooo", "mpbvoouu" "mpbvuuu". Here is a recording:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_EsxukdNXM


You can see that i have put "mpbv" at the beginning. "mpbv" it the undifferentiated sound created by opening your lips and blowing air out. You start with m then go to p then to b and at the very end you get v. This is exactly what you hear when you are listening to cows, and probably what people imitated when they wanted to tell each other that there is a cow somewhere around. Another reason why i put "mpbv" at the beginning of the word is because it is quite difficult to differentiate these sounds without proper training. This is why babies are "babbling", which means they are making "mpbv" sound until they acquire a sufficient control of their speech apparatus. Today this is relatively easy as we get a lot of this skill prepackaged in our genes through epigenetic inheritances, although not everyone gets the same genes and this is why we have languages that sound different. But at the beginning of the language development, people were still trying to learn how to control their mouths to make differentiated sounds and this is why i believe they used "mpbv" sound in "mpbvaaa" or "mpbvoo". This is also the reason why we have words like this:


bó (Irish) - cow
vo (Serbian) - cow, or castrated bull, or bull used for agricultural activities and not for mating (cattle).


but we also have all these other bo (vo) related words in Serbian which don't exist in Irish:


bo - stab
bosti - to stab
ubo - stabbed
bodež - knife


But also this:







A boyar, or bolyar (Bulgarian: боляр or болярин; Ukrainian: буй or боярин; Russian: боя́рин, tr. boyarin; IPA: [bɐˈjarʲɪn]; Romanian: boier [boˈjer] (help·info); Greek: βογιάρος), was a member of the highest rank of the feudal Bulgarian, Moscovian, Kievan Rus'ian, Wallachian, and Moldavian aristocracies, second only to the ruling princes (in Bulgaria, tsars), from the 10th century to the 17th century. The rank has lived on as a surname in Russia, Romania, and Finland, where it is spelt Pajari.[1]


Etymology



The word is likely derived from the plural form of the Bulgarian title boila ("noble"), bolyare, which is attested in Bulgar inscriptions[2][3] and rendered as boilades or boliades in the Greek of Byzantine documents.[4][5] Its ultimate derivation is probably from the Turkic roots bai ("noble, rich"; cf. "bey") and är ("man, men").[4] Another possible etymology of the term it may come from the Romanian word "boi" (bulls); a rich man is an owner of bulls or "boier".[6] The title entered Old Russian as быля (bylya)



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyar


Let me suggest alternative etymology which corresponds with already proposed romanian one. Tho word Boyar comes from bó + àire = cow (cattle) + lord. We actially find bó àire in Irish texts describing the Iron age proliferation of ring forts, where each ring fort was owned by a bóàire or a cattle lord. This title was imposed on the Eastern Slavs during the process of merging of the Central European Celts (Western Slavs) and the Rus (Eastern Slavs). Remember how Dumha means tumulus in Irish, but also a place of councils, parliament in Russian. In old Ireland tumuluses were used as places of tribal councils and parliaments where kings were elected for instance. In Brega one of the tumuluses was actually converted into a royal fort. This merging of Celts and Russ basically meant that Celtic (Serbian, west Slavic) military elite became ruling caste of the Russ. This process was described in "The book of Veles" a much disputed ancient Slavic manuscript, but which i believe to be based on actual histories because i found in it things that could not have been invented in 19th or 20th century as the knowledge necessary to forge these things did not exist at the time. From that period of merging we have these words as well:


Mol, Moladh (Irish). Meanings


commend(vt)
commend(vt)
hub(n m1)(of wheel)
nominate(vt)(propose)
propose(vt)
praise(vt)
recommend(vt)
suggest(vt)


Mol, Molba (Serbian). Meanings


Praise
Beg
Plead
Suggest


Mol-im te bože - I beg you, I praise you god
Mol-ba Pleading
Mol-io bih - If i could suggest


Moladjec (Molad je (e) - c) - recommended is - a commendation given to a someone





Badhan/badhún is derived from Medieval Irish for cattle (= ba) + fort (= dún). Your grassy hill (= cabhan) is based on the root word cab/cabha (= mouth/hollow/bend) which itself is related to Latin caberna (= hollow/cave/vault).





As for grassy hill (cabhan) i would suggest another etymology:




bán - white (like wool, or milk). Here i think you can see the old word bá + n as meaning that color which looks like things we get from the thing that says "bá". The word bán could have even been used to denote sheep as wee see here:


àire - attention, care, care, minister, lord


banair - sheep fold. Probably comes from banaire - place for caring, owning, keeping sheep.


Now these two words:


Cabhan = grassy hill
Gabhan - cattle pond. In serbian shepard is čoban, but shepard's hooded rain gown is kabanica (gabanica). Was the original word for shepard in Serbian Gaban?


I believe that they come from the same root: ga + ban = stick, spear, stake + sheep. This perfectly describes sheparding: you go to a grassy hill with your sheep and your stick or spear (ga) where you mind the sheep while they graze. Then you bring them to gaban or sheep, cattle pond where you milk them and protect them during the night. The person who carries a stick (ga) and is minding sheep (ba(n)) is gaban (shepard) and he wears gabanicu (hooded rain gown). Speaking of Badhan/badhún being derived from Medieval Irish for cattle (= ba) + fort (= dún), in Serbian we have another interesting word: katun (gadun). This word means shepards settlement in the mountains during summer grazing period. This comes from Ga (stake) and dun (which actually does not mean fort but enclosure). so Gadun is an enclosure made of stakes, ring fort.


We also have this word


Baodhan, baoghan - a calf.


http://archive.org/stream/gaelicnamesofbea00forbuoft/gaelicnamesofbea00forbuoft_djvu.txt


I actually believe that this word used to mean lamb as well or any cattle (cows, sheep) descendant. This comes from:


ba, bo (sheep, cow)


+


ogha - grandchild, Irish ó, ua, g. ui, a grandson, descendant,


http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb28.html#MB.O


so ba(o)oghan - a child of a sheep or cow




We also have this cluster of words:


Irish


bleagh - milk
bleachdair - milk man
bleoghainn - milking
agh - field, meadow
le - with, by
leagh (Scottish Gaelic) - melt, thaw, dissolve (in liquid) (make liquid)
leacht (Irish) - liquid
àire - attention, care, care, minister, lord


bleagh = ba + leacht (leagh) = ba + leak = baleak = (pronounced) blek (milk) - literally a liquid you can squeeze from this thing on the meadow which says ba.
bleachdair = ba + leacht (leagh) + àire = (pronounced) blek(d)ar - literally someone who cares for getting liquid squeezed from this thing on the meadow which says ba.







http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb04.html#blàthach
and
Focloir Gaeilge-Bearla/Irish-English Dictionary




Serbian


bleko = "mpbv"aleko = mleko (milk)
blekar = "mpbv"lekar - mlekar (milk man)
blekan = "mpbv"lekan - mlekan (made of milk, to milk)


Interestingly in Serbian we call sounding of sheep "ble". This probably comes from ba + le = sound produced by sheep...


Here we have another interesting word probably related to cattle (sheep, cows) but also women, which were in the olden days considered to be a property in the same way as cattle.


Ban, Bana - woman, girl, female. I think it is interesting how similar this is to Ba, Bo, Ban for sheep and cow. By the way in Bosnia there is a word "bona" which means woman.


Now in the olden days (I like this expression, i got it from Peppa pig which i watch with my son), bands of warriors used to go into cattle and women raids. The aim was to steal as much cattle or women from the enemy tribe. In Irish a group of men is called dáil. From this word we have gardáil from ga(r) (spear) + dáil (group of men) = men with spears.


So from ba(n) cattle, women and dáil (group of men) we have bandáil which is in modern Irish used to mean assembly of women (what ever that means) but originally probably had the meaning of "gang of men going to steal cattle and women". This is probably where word Vandal (bandail) comes from. Vandali, Bandali were probably just gangs of men from Central Europe on gian cattle and women raid. In Serbian and other languages we still have the word "banda" which means exactly that (a gang):


http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/banda


This is just one of the words that entered Latin from this central European "Celtic" (Serbian, western Slavic) language.


While we are talking about cattle here are few more words which are the same in Serbian and Irish and is related to cattle:

tuar (Irish) - dung, manure, cattle field, sheep run
tor (Serbian) - sheep run


gùn (Irish) - gown, Irish gúna; from the English gown, from Welsh gwn (*gwun), from Celtic *vo-ouno-


gunj (Serbian) - gown made from wool (vuna is wool in Serbian)


http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb22.html





I think you are indulging in a little etymological shoe-horning in order to forge a connection between Irish and Serbian words that may not exist. I would be more amenable to your argument if you showed a better knowledge of the roots of Irish words.


How's this?

dublin
28-05-13, 10:27
When i was in Serbia last month i got few dictionaries that cover specific dialects of Serbian language. One of them covers Dinaric Montenegrian dialect, from the same area where they use word Katun (Gadun) for the Shepard's mountain settlement. In the dictionary they had a whole section dedicated to sheep names, given to them based on their appearance and behavior. I know i am mad. In there i found this:


Bleka - completely white sheep
Blekan - completely white ram


Compare this with


bleagh - milk (white)
bleachdair - milk man
bleoghainn - milking


Also as an example of the interchangeability of the "mpbv" sound group i will expand the "bo" word group in Serbian:


bó (Irish) - cow
vo (Serbian) - cow, or castrated bull, or bull used for agricultural activities and not for mating.
bo - stab (like with horns from bo, vo. This is probably how people got an idea for creating stabbing and impaling weapons in the first place)
bosti - to stab
ubo - stabbed
bodež - knife
boj, voj - battle with sharp objects which you can use to stab, like spears, o knives
bojnik, vojnik, bojovnik - solder, a man that has a sharp objects which you can use to stab, like spears, o knives
bojna, vojna - war, a fight with sharp objects which you can use to stab, like spears, o knives
vojevati - to fight in war
boii - not a tribe but the solders, men with spears?
bojati se - to be afraid


You can see here that b and v are practically interchangeable. This apples to Serbi and Servi in the same way. In the Irish language we don't even have v sound. We have p, b, mh and bh. This is a good illustration of the undifferentiated "mpbv" block being partially differentiated.


Now how old are these words? How old is this language?

dublin
28-05-13, 18:28
To support my theory that the first names of animals with distinct sounds were onomatopoeic, i have here collected the names and sounds of all major European wild and domestic animals. The names are in Serbian and then in English. I would like to ask people here to help me and supply the matching names of animals in other European languages.


I think that it is amazing that every one of the animal names in Serbian is onomatopoeic and very few in English are. As i explained earlier onomatopoeic names were used during the creation of the language, before there was sufficient grammar and word pool to explain the association between the name and the animal. This shows how old the Serbian animal names are. This also says a lot about the age of the Serbian language as a whole.

Most interesting is that the common word for Eagle (Orao) is derived from the sound of the Griffon vulture which only lives in southern Europe. This puts the birth place of Serbian language in the Dinaric Alps.

Wild animals


lav (lion) lions used to live in Europe in distant past.


the sound is laaaow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_22gJ5kB31k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGnEgAVAVIk


vuk, volk, voulk, olk, oulk


the sound is wouuuuulk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9xhOQ26QYI


(wolf)


the sound is wof,wolf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvHHi3GI1XU


ris (lynx)


the sound is rissss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbhkXg9iFYA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8eBrv_JKuk


urs, medved (bear). Medved is the euphemistic name for bear in Slavic languages. It is used instead of the real name for bear, as invoking the real name was considered dangerous. The real name is urs.


the sound is urs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGG616qvxBI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xz05MkWdr9k


svinja, guda, vepar (pig, boar)


vepar (wild boar)


the sound is veeee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jniH3HfDo7Q


svinja


the sound is sviiiii
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og5rKt9VYX0


guda (grunting, groktanje)


the sound is goud
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P5FxuwGlzo




elk, elen, jelen (deer stag)


the sound is eeelk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97ORGksHhKw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOEj4xVKN38


how people imitate elks


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN9Rr8uM5Q4


kuna (marten)


sounds like koun, kuun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pACaNzQXn4o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW2b-npfHuQ
http://sounds.bl.uk/Environment/British-wildlife-recordings/022M-W1CDR0001419-0300V0#_


lasica (weasel)


sounds like lasiiica
http://sounds.bl.uk/Environment/British-wildlife-recordings/022M-W1CDR0001377-1400V0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On_lQ5k8eO8


Lija, Lisica (fox)


sounds like liaaaa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6NuhlibHsM


jazavac pronounced iazavac (badger)


sounds like iazavava
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwrG_HdH2oY


jež (hedgehog)


sounds like jeezhjezh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6w1tIGzOPvo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7VtFnJe-K0


zmija, smija (snake) the ssssss sound comes from the slithereing sound a snake makes in the undergrowth and from the hissing sound an angry snake makes to scare the enemy off


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imR80hOKAJo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQY0b_G_CrI


žaba pronounced zhaba (frog)


sounds like zhabababab
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gn3wFrLxqw


foka - seal


sounds like (f)oook
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-LIqdjqHts


vidra (otter)


sounds like viiii
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUJDmAXsEvs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07zZxaKuKT0


dabar (beaver) the name comes from the sound of wood chewing or maybe from the angry sound


chewing sounds like dabdabdab
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfTubrLqXCE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV8ptd_XU7U


angry beaver sounds like daaaab
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXpSdyFgwvc


veverica (Red squirrel)


sounds like veverver
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azw7BueVQ0c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8hNASBFDJY




domestic animals




bo,vo (cow)


the sound is mpbvooou
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_EsxukdNXM


ba, barav (sheep)


the sound is baaa
http://www.sheep.com/sounds/baasheep1.wav


koza (goat)


the sound is gooo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giR1o8o5KMw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU2n8HhOFi0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dp0Bt2cbcc8


konj, konjic, (which makes njiii sound, horse)




the sound is niiiii
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq6l5767Iek


mazga (mule)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD90xkKUHYE


magarac


the sound is magaaaa


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWS4Eu8E2z4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wDFGU20P9k




kokoska (chicken)


the sound is koko
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI7ni7zL8qU


kokot, oroz, pevac (cockerel)


the sound is kokoreku or ooroso
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFhUzAwDEz4




patka (duck)


the sound is pa(k)pa(k) or k(mpbv)a(k)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlbbCPQqV2k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=487jIOnY-yE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCY8jp2tZ1c


guska, gaska (guse)


the sound is guu, gua
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_28ZtSu1iZM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUtFHPnW5MM


ku(ce), ker, pas (dog)


the sound is ouuuu, kouuuu, ku
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF1lwZ24RYI




the sound is kerrrrr
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y-ewncOomk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuHtyDbyEaA


macka (cat)


the sound is maaaaou
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o52U05Ai5tE




wild birds




orao (eagle)


Griffon vulture, Gyps fulvus, Eurasian griffon. Grifon was one of the symbols of the Serbs


sound is closest to orr, aorr, oarr
http://www.hark.com/clips/tzxdcchmvd-griffon-vulture-gyps-fulvus-eurasian-griffon-gyps-fulvus-gyps-fulvus-animal-sound-bird-gyps-fulvus-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktZ11CGKloA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBErXCxqUEA


golden eagle


the sound is very close to igal or ior
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le6aZtJ7WPA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMT5ZL-0yeA


soko (Peregrine Falcon)


sounds like sokosokosoko
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P18xYHPGtRo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNO6acbF7n0




gavran, gabran (raven)


sounds like gaaa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZBfahJmqAQ



Čavka (Jackdaw)


sounds like chaa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kihVoeSIE7U


vrana (Crow)


sounds like vraa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP3pzQnWyb0


kukavica (cucoo)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzKdAr1pLAY




Ćuk pronounced tjuk (Scops Owl)


sounds like tjuk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km3D2jq1HoQ


gugutka (Eurasian Collared Dove)


sounds like gugugu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xACNJcURd5I


golub (wood pidgeon)


sounds like gogolub
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n84sZIN4lv8




galeb (gull)


sounds like gaaal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qRJoMj92hw




jejina (long eared owl)




sounds like yeye
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWpnonRXLfM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM7WPdpiwPc


buljina (Eurasian Eagle-owls)


sounds like bu-uu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gnzzMjbOpw


svraka (magpie)


sounds like svrakakaka
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxtORth2BIY




tetreb (capercaillie)


sounds like tetr
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exKHNaZuT64
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jipvjcP3oxE


štiglic, (Eurasian Siskin)


sounds like shtiii
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeQjBuBaIm8




Češljugar (goldfinch)


sounds like cheshcheshljuu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfjgjA_p3vQ


vrabac, dzivdzan (sparow)


sounds like dzivdziv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PYZeVT_M5E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HHlFKalN0Q


senica (great tit)


sounds like senitc sesenitc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yGy5ZQdq28




roda (stork)


sounds like rodarodarodada
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHWri3VHIVI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YPM3rNfZNI


prepelica (quail)


sounds like prepreprep
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w_GmaKN2Ik


jarebica pronounced iarebitsa (partridge)


sounds like iariariarebieareb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fe4l0G5KYY


liska (coot)


sounds like liiis liiis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxZFztVX5DQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8_yEtUbTrY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oEy_vPez7o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqPAref2aJk


čaplja pronounced chaplja (Grey Heron)


sounds like chap chap
http://sounds.bl.uk/Environment/British-wildlife-recordings/022M-W1CDR0001431-1200V0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ay3By1RHUM

lastavica (swallow)


sounds like vicviclalalalaaastavicvicvic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgcipZq5oMQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPri_hTK-rM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUjgirdanV4




insects




zrikavac (cricket)


sounds like zrizri
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZo4ZdKbqwg




cvrcak (cicada)


sounds like cvrrrrrr
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bnd6Ty68FU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqys8lKsu4s


muva (fly)


muva (house fly)


sounds like movazzz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcuKTheCcsE




zunzara (bluebottle), obad (gadfly, horsefly) any big loud fly




sounds like zuzzzzz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQiVnxepan4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNUd6cqh5Zk




pčela pronounced pchela but probably comes from (mpbv)(sz)ela like in polish pszczoła (beee)


sounds like mpbvsze
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtK9_EKDg1E


osa (wasp)


sounds like ossssssssss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0f8vqlmxmY




bumbar (bumblebee)


sounds like bummmm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDMaOdIR9nA

dublin
29-05-13, 11:37
Another interesting things about Serbian animal names is that the only two animal names that don't match the main animal sound on the first syllable are the name for horse and the name for swallow. The horse doeas however make two main sounds of which one sounds like ko or go and the other like njiii, and it is possible that the name is the combination of the two sounds. The swallow name "lastavica" does not match the sound on the first syllable. This is actually to be expected as i used the sound of the barn swallow. Barn swallows are the most common European swallow type today. They nest in barns and cow sheds. When my father went to his parents village last year, the old people complained to him that there are fewer and fewer swallows every year. This is because the vilage is dying, there are only old people left in it and there are fewer and fewer cows and working cow sheds and barns in which swallows can nest. Once cows are gone from the cow shed the swallows are gone next year. Which means no cows in cow sheds no barn swallows. So these barn swallows only arrived with cows and cow sheds, which is well in the time of fully developed language. However before there were any cows in cow sheds, there was another type of swallow that lived around people in the Balkans: the bank swallow or sand martin. And you wont be able to guess what sound does it make. It is "laslastatatalastatata" which corresponds perfectly with the name "lasta" which is one of the swallow names in Serbian. The mame for barn swallow "lastavica" which looks similar to bank swallow but has a song that goes like "vichvichlastavichvich" basically means "swallow that says vich" or "lastavica"




http://www.hark.com/clips/rnxrmggdbd-swallow-sand-martin-bank-swallow-orn-brown-throated-sand-martin-riparia-paludicola-bird-sound-of-an-animal
http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/Bank_Swallow/sounds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5hSUIgpkUY

If we accept that giving onomatopoeic names is the oldest way of naming then these Serbian animal names are probably the oldest European words. And they have all been preserved in Serbian but not in other European languages. How do we explain this?

I will finish this discussion on animal names with an Irish word for the end "críoch" and Serbian word for the end "kraj". :)

LeBrok
29-05-13, 17:44
Barn swallows are the most common European swallow type today. They nest in barns and cow sheds. When my father went to his parents village last year, the old people complained to him that there are fewer and fewer swallows every year. This is because the vilage is dying, there are only old people left in it and there are fewer and fewer cows and working cow sheds and barns in which swallows can nest. Once cows are gone from the cow shed the swallows are gone next year. Which means no cows in cow sheds no barn swallows.
I'm sorry but your observational skills are beyond hope. Your above observation is wrong on many levels.


Barn swallows are the most common European swallow type today. They nest in barns and cow sheds. It is only called Barn swallow in English, in other countries it is just swallow. There original nesting place is on steep rocks, or sandstone escarpments by the rivers. When people started building structures, it was to swallows likings and they like the walls and beams, the way they like high banks places.


They nest in barns and cow sheds They like barns, but it doesn't mean that these are only places swallows nest. They like barns because there are always lot of flies around cows. Maybe it is the connection? If barns are gone, there still will be swallows around people's houses. They can attach their nests to the wood or brick walls or to the soffits under the roof. I'm sure you've seen their nest on houses, you just didn't know that it is the same Barn Swallow doing that.


Once cows are gone from the cow shed the swallows are gone next year. Which means no cows in cow sheds no barn swallows Wrong, swallows don't eat cows. If cows are gone, swallows will still live in the area. I would claim that as long as there are flies in the village, there will be swallows. I can bet my life on it.
The only change is that with lack of cows there are fewer flies flying around villages. This definitely affects swallow population. Fewer flies, less food for swallows, equals fewer swallows.


Unfortunately your onomastic skills are at the same level. Please, stop this nonsense.

dublin
29-05-13, 18:29
LeBrok

You have never been to a real old fashioned village, i can see that. Barn swallows "only" nest in cow sheds and barns that are being used. I know that from experience, i don't need to bet. When cows are gone and when barns are not used, swallows are gone as well. Town swallows nest on houses under roofs. They don't need cows. Also the swallows that had "original nesting place is on steep rocks, or sandstone escarpments by the rivers" still do nest there. They are called bank swallows. They are different species. Please check you facts before you start handing out insults. As for my onomastic skills i will leave this to everyone to decide for themselves. This is why i supplied the files. If you find me any other European animal names that fit the animal sounds better please give me an example. Otherwise you have no case.

Few more interesting thing i found in my notes about link between sheep, cattle and women:


In Irish word for daughter is "ní". So Ana ní Cormack means Ana daughter of Cormack. But "ní" also means thing. This basically equates a daughter with a thing, to a property. So Ana ní Cormack becomes Ana property of Cormack. We find this exact thing in the Dinaric area of the Balkans where even today daughters are not considered to be children. You would hear people say: "I have two children and one daughter". This is patriarchal Iron Age society at its peak. So from here it is easy to understand why we have ban, bana, bean = woman, girl and possible ba(n) sheep and banair sheep fold.


Here is the remnant of this patriarchal society from the Balkans. Does anyone know of any similar customs from Gaelic lands?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sworn_virgin



The term sworn virgin has come to refer to a traditional social role in the highlands of Albania and Montenegro. Among the highlander groups, a similar, cross-cultural clan-based orientation and highly marked sexual roles have created a situation where there has been a shortage of adult males. One suitable alternative is the sworn virgin (Serbian tobelija or tybelí, ostajnica "she who stays" or muskobanja "man-like woman"; Albanian virgjineshtë / burrneshë), a female-born person who takes on the social (but not sexual) role of a man. They dress, work and live as men, but remain chaste and unmarried.
The origins of the "sworn virgins" are disparate: some choose this role (as early as childhood and as late as just before their marriage ceremony) while others are raised or forced into it by circumstance. These societies have suffered a severe shortage of men due to interclan violence and Ottoman oppression; a clan without a patriarch might choose a female as an ostajnica, or female replacement, who would subsequently take on a male social role.




And here they call it Albanian sworn virgin even though it is an old Balkan custom, which admittedly survived mostly among the northern Albanians which are all Albanized old Dinaric population with the same genes, and which actually keeps clan links with the old Montenegrian clans from which they originally separated during Turkish occupation of the Balkans:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_sworn_virgins



The tradition of sworn virgins developed out of the Kanuni i Lekë Dukagjinit (English: The Code of Lekë Dukagjini, or simply the Kanun),[5] a set of codes and laws developed by Lekë Dukagjini and used mostly in northern Albania and Kosovo from the 15th century until the 20th century. The Kanun is not a religious document – many groups follow it including Roman Catholic, Albanian Orthodox, and Muslims.[6]
The Kanun dictates that families must be patrilineal (meaning wealth is inherited through a family's men) and patrilocal (upon marriage, a woman moves into the household of her husband's family).[7] Women are treated like property of the family. Under the Kanun women are stripped of many human rights. They cannot smoke, wear a watch, or vote in their local elections. They cannot buy land, and there are many jobs they are not permitted to hold. There are even establishments that they cannot enter.[4][6]


This code has just canonized the old tribal laws that existed in the Dinaric region of the Balkans from time immemorial.


From the above it is also easy to understand the link between bàn = white, bana, bean = woman, girl, and and banais = wedding. Wedding is a ceremony of acquiring a woman as a property. There is a direct link in Irish tradition between sheep, shepard, woman and wedding:





banais - marriage-feast, wedding. Banais refers to the wedding party or dinner while pòsadh is the Gaelic for marriage and usually refers to what happens in the church or the registry office.
ban, bana - woman. In Bosnia there is a word "bona" which is a old word for woman...
bean na bainnse - bride





This is the link between wedding as a ceremony of acquiring property. I describes a ceremony in which the shepard kings marries the land and in that way becomes its owner or ruler:



banais ríghe


[Irish, wedding-feast of kingship]


A ritual practiced by early Irish kings in which they were united with the sovereignty of the territory over which they ruled. The abundant evidence of the annals testifies that the practice was widespread, although details are not always precise. The ceremony appears to have comprised two main elements, the libation offered by the bride to her husband and the coition. At Tara the ritual was called feis temrach.



Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/banais-r-ghe#ixzz2UE93sCKc



The personification of the power and authority of a kingdom as a woman to be won sexually pre-dates literature written in any Celtic language. In the hierogamy [Gk hieros, sacred; gamos, marriage] described in a Sumerian hymn (2nd millennium BC), the king must mate with Inanna, queen of heaven and goddess of love and fertility, on New Year's Day in her residence. In the hymn the king is seen as an incarnation of Dumuzi, a shepherd-king and husband of Inanna, and thus the rite of hierogamy ends with his ecstatic sexual union with her, perhaps acted out in life with one of Inanna's sacred prostitutes. Correlatives and echoes to a kind of spiritual and/or physical sexual union between the male king and a divine female sovereignty are widespread in early Indo-European culture, as far away as India in the instances of Vishnu and Sri-Lakshmi. Within Celtic traditions, evidence of sexual-sovereignty rituals, involving horses, survives to late pre-Norman Ireland, as the shocked and disgusted observations of Giraldus Cambrensis in Topographia Hibernica (1188) testify. Early Irish texts describe the ritual banais ríghe [wedding-feast of kingship], which included (1) a libation from the sovereignty bride and (2) the coition of the king with sovereignty herself. At Tara for the installation of the ard rí [high king], the ceremony was known as feis temrach [Irish foaid, spends the night with] and fled bainisi.



Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/lady-sovereignty#ixzz2UEAokUub


Finally "ní" also means not, nothing. This equates "ní" with "not a son". So Ana ní Cormack becomes Ana property of Cormack, not the son of Cormack. In Serbian we have the same suffix for creating negation:


šta - what, something
ništa - nothing





e - accented è, he, it, Irish é, *ei-s: root ei, i; Old Latin eis (= is, he, that), ea, she (= eja); Gothic is, German er, es; Sanskrit ayam. The Old Irish neuter was ed, now eadh (as in seadh, ni h-eadh).



Basically it means what exists.


je, e - is, exists
nije, nie - doesn't exist


The last example shows that the word for "is" is the same in Irish and Serbian and that construction of "is not" is the same.


Next few words make this even more interesting:




Irish:



c' - for co, cia, who, what
cà, ca - where, Irish cá, how, where, who; a by-form to cia, cè
cho, co - as, so, Irish comh, Welsh cyn; from com, with. See comh-. Gaelic "Cho dubh ri feannaig" = Welsh "Cyn ddued a'r frân".



Serbian:


"k", from "ko" which means who, or "ka" which means where, where to, towards
Ko, Ka, ku(or in old southern Serbian dialects ka) which mean who, where, how. Examples: ko (ko je to?) - who is it, k (k tebi) - towards you, ka (ka tebi) towards you, ka (ka, kaj, sta) - what, ka(ko) (kako to) - how, how is that possible or done, ku(da) or ka(de) (ku da idemo) - where are we going.


Dakle ca + e = Ka + e = kaj je = sta to, sta je - what is it


ka de e = kade je, kude je, gde je - where is


I find this Serbian word very interesting: kak, kako = ka + k, ka + ko = ca + c(o) = how, where + who, what = how is something done or by whom


Considering that the words for where, who, what, existence are the same in Irish and Serbian, the next few words should not be a surprise:





bith - the world, existence, Irish, Old Irish bith, Welsh byd, Breton bed, Gaulish bitu-, *bitu-s; root bi, bei, live, Indo-European @gei, @gi, whence Latin vivo, English be, etc. Hence beatha, beò, biadh, q.v.
bith - being (inf. of bì, be), Irish, Early Irish beith, Old Irish buith.


bi, bì - be Irish bí, be thou, Old Irish bíu, sum, bí be thou, Old Welsh bit, sit, bwyf, sim, Middle Breton bezaff. Proto-Celtic bhv-ijô, for Old Irish bíu, I am; Latin fio; English be; Indo-European root bheu, be. See bha. Stokes differs from other authorities in referring bíu, bí to Celtic beiô, root bei, bi, live, as in bith, beatha, Latin vivo, etc.



So bit is the world, reality, existence which comes from bi, bei which means alive, what exists. Examples in Serbian:


Sta bi? Sta je bilo? - What happened? What existed?
Gde bi? Gde je bilo? Where happened? Where existed?
Ti - you
Biti - bi ti - you exist
u biti - in existance, reality
sa - with
bitisati - bi ti sa ti - to be with you, to be together.




So all the above words: be, is, where, what, who, how, not are all the same in Irish and Serbian (and other Slavic languages) again, but not all the same in Other European languages (some are and some are not). If you look at the distribution of the above words in Europe you can see why I think that Central Europe (Balkan, Baltic) is the European language birth place. I believe that the above words came to England and Ireland from Central Europe with various Central European (Vinca, Celtic, Anglo Saxon, Viking) invasions via south Baltic.

Taranis
29-05-13, 19:48
Dublin,

you have demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that you have no understanding of linguistics, nor have the will to learn them. What you are doing is having an already fixiated opinion (that there has to be a special relationship between Serbian and Irish - and this is not any different from how a creationist has the pre-fabricated view that the 'bible must be right'), and going from there you are taking cherrypicked words in irish and serbian, ignoring that other celtic and slavic languages exist, in fact even denying that languages that are unanimously considered celtic by scholars (eg. celtiberian and gaulish), are not actually 'celtic' but claim that they are slavic instead, and you cite a slovenian nationalist website as evidence (it reads "Welcome on the Website of the Project Origin of Slovenians!" on the main page, which reminds me suspiciously of this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetic_theory)):


Is it time to rethink the whole “Celtic languages” thing? Are central European, mainly Slavic languages but also Germanic and Baltic languages, the real Celtic languages?

If this is the case, then all documented common words in Celtic and Slavic languages should not surprise you anymore.

Here is just an example of what I am talking about:

http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik06/serafimov_celtoslav06.pdf

Or this:

http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik10/seraf_slavic_gaul.pdf

Without knowing how strong and how long the influence of the Central European cultures which reached Ireland and Britain via South Baltic was, the above claims would have been absurd. Now they are to be expected.

Very compelling. As a matter of fact, I was very entertained when I read those because the guy has just as little understanding of linguistics, no offense, as you do.


And, to make things better, you are also invoking the Hittites, Sumerians and Trojans in your 'Serbian Vinca hypothesis'. If you are already at that stage, why not Mayans and Martians?

By the way, I should add something else: it's one thing when scientists have eccentric hypotheses. It's good that these show up, because scientific progress thrives on this, either by verifying, or by falsifying these hypotheses. But, there is a catch with this: scientists have a rigorous, consistent methodology. Now what you are doing is that you sometimes pick, to use your own words...


Here is the official etymology:

... and then start drawing your own conclusions and start to magically dismantle words as you see fit. It doesn't work that way. I haven't seen you talk about other Slavic languages like Polish or Russian here, or other Celtic languages (well, you have told us that those do not exist), and I haven't seen you give any consideration was Serbian or Irish might have sounded like 2000 years ago.

What I found particularly amusing is your insistence that the Irish word "tuath" was borrowed...


All i am saying is that Tuatha is a foreign word, not Gaelic and has negative characteristics associated with invading foreign non Gaelic force.

... which every linguist will tell you that it's not. My conclusion is that you are unable to distinguish wether a word is borrowed or not because you do not understand how the methods to determine that work, and, to be honest, seem to want to. You just have your Ireland-Serbia idea and it keep repeating it.

Now, you're asking us to take you seriously, which, no offense, I find quite the daunting task, since you are placing yourself so far outside of things that it's impossible to argue with you. And, you ask us to keep this thread 'open forever'. The problem I see is this: people are not going to learn anything there.

Sorry, case closed.