Old Europe (Vinca) language and culture in early layers of Serbian and Irish language

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dublin

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Many years ago I noticed strange similarities between Irish and Serbian mythology, language, toponymes and hydronymes. This was a mystery because according to history, these two peoples never lived in the same area of Europe at the same time, and therefore should not have been able to influence each other. And yet the number of similar or identical cultural, religious and linguistic characteristics kept growing. Also, people between the Balkans and Ireland did not share these cultural traits. This meant that there was no cultural diffusion. The conclusion was that these two people (Serbian and Irish) must have lived together somewhere at some point in history in order to mix their languages and cultures so much.
While trying to uncover potential meeting point, I first looked at Viking invasions from the south Baltic. While there were many things pointing to a substantial West Slavic presence among the Danish Vikings who settled in England and Ireland, this all happened too late in order to explain hundreds of old Irish words and names which were identical to the Serbian ones. Not only were these words the same, they came in clusters and could often have a root in only one of languages with complex words being present in both. It also could not explain the early medieval Irish personal names which had meaning in Serbian. It also could not explain all the grammatical constructs which were identical in Irish and in Serbian. Vikings just didn’t have that big a cultural influence to force the Irish to accept Slavic grammar.
I then looked at the Ango – Saxon period and discovered that there was a significant West Slavic (Wendish) presence in the Angles alliance. They settled in large areas of England, and there was a possibility that some unrecorded Angles settlements did appear in Ireland in the early medieval time with significant West Slavic population. But again this could not explain all the grammatical constructs which were identical in Irish and in Serbian. If there were Angles settlements in Ireland in the early medieval time, they again just didn’t have that big a cultural influence to force the Irish to accept Slavic grammar. Also there was a problem of even earlier archaeological finds, linked to the iron age, which had Serbian and Slavic characteristics. There were too many old customs, legends, sacred sites which had their counterparts in Slavic countries and particularly Balkan South Slavic countries.
So I looked at Rome, and Roman invasions of Britain and wandered was this maybe the source of common cultural characteristics between the Irish and the Serbs. But Romans never entered Ireland and there is no known record of Irish mercenaries in the Roman army, so that removed a possible connection once again.
So I looked at Iron Age period and found many things which pointed to a significant cultural influx from the south Baltic. There was a great similarity between Lusatian culture in the south Baltic and the Iron Age cultures in Ireland and England, and it seems that the Iron Age was brought to Ireland on the spears and swords of the people from south Baltic. This was a good starting point. The warrior elite from the Baltic could have brought with them their beliefs, their language and their customs, and forced them on the people they encountered in Ireland. But that would not explain the huge number of toponymes and hydronimes in the Balkans which have no meaning in Slavic languages but do have meaning in Irish. And these toponymes and hydronimes come in clusters and are tightly connected with the location of the Balkan tumulus culture sites. Also this would not explain the presence of all the words, and grammatical constructs which only exist in Irish and in certain dialects of south Slavic languages and particularly in some old dialects of Serbian. This also would not explain all the base words in South Slavic languages which can be broken down and explained using Irish. For this to be possible, Irish speaking people had to be present in the Balkans in great numbers for a very long time during the Iron Age and even during the Bronze Age.
So I looked at Celts as a possible cultural link between the two people. They were the rulers of central Europe, precisely the area between the Baltic and the Balkans. That would have given them the ability to influence both the Irish and the people who would later become the Western Slavs. But Celts never had any significant long term presence in the Balkans. They came through the Balkans on the way to Asia Minor in the 3rd century bc. But their main strongholds were in the area above Danube. The area below Danube was the land of the Illyrians. Illyrians and Celts were by some people linked and called Celto – Illyrians. This certainly was a good lead. If Illyrians actually spoke the same or similar language to the Celts, then that would explain all the similarities between the Irish and Serbian languages but only if we accept that both the Irish and Serbian languages are direct descendants of the Celto Illyrian language and that Celtic and Illyrian were the same language.
This was already getting very controversial, as this would mean that there is a cultural continuity in the area between the Baltic and the Balkan lasting for more than 2500 years. This would mean that there is an underlying Celtic cultural layer in the Slavic culture and that the Slavic culture was created as a fusion of the Celtic and Skito Sarmatian cultures? The similarities between the Irish and Serbian cultures would then be the Celtic layer, and that would allow us to decipher the Celtic language from Irish and Slavic languages. This was very exciting. But there were things that could not be explained with the Celtic connection.
First it could not explain the amount of the words, customs, legends from old Rome and old Greece which could not be explained through Old Greek and Latin but could using Irish and Serbian language and culture. The only way this was possible was that somehow these cultural influences came to Italy and Greece from the Balkans at the time before the formation of both Kingdome of Rome and the Classical Greece. And there were plenty of ancient historical texts, as well as archaeological data that pointed to exactly that was the case.
The latest archaeological data from Serbia confirms that iron was invented in the Balkans. The earliest iron metallurgical centre in the world, dated to 14th–13th century b BC, was found in south eastern Serbia in the hill fort settlement on the hill called Hisar. This site belongs to the earliest proto Illyrian period.
So there was a culture in the Balkans powerful enough to influence Rome, Greece and Celtic central Europe. This had moved the meeting point where the future Irish and Serbs lived together to the Balkans in the end of the second and the beginning of the first millennium BC and identified the Illyrian culture as the root culture for both the Irish and the Serbs. But this culture also greatly influenced Old Rome and Greece which was evident from the amount of cultural characteristics and linguistic traces in both cultures which were in all the ancient texts attributed to the mysterious Pelasgians who even more mysteriously disappeared from the face of the earth together with their Illyrian and Celtic neighbours. These Pelasgians, Illyrians and Celts now turned out to be alive and well in the Irish, South and Western Slavs….This was getting really interesting.
But then I came across the story about Vinca metallurgical revolution which happened in the 4th millennium BC. At the same time when they were making lots of Copper and Bronze weapons, Vinca people were creating a first organized religion. When you have well-armed religious fanatics you can be sure that a religious war is not far behind. And that is exactly what seemed to have happened in the second half of the 4th millennium BC. Vinca culture suddenly disappeared from the Balkans, but Vinca artefacts started appearing all over Europe, Asia and North Africa. And all of a sudden all these great civilisations started appearing everywhere, all based on the same symbols, the wolf, the eagle and other birds, the snake, the bee, the bull, the double axe, the mother goddess earth, the father sky, the son sun and daughter moon, the bird people and wolf people. The Vincans went out of the Balkans and took over the world, wielding their metal spears, swords and axes and carrying their wolf totems before them. They also took with them their language whose traces can be now found in all the Indo European languages.
But they did not all leave. Some stayed at home and they later morphed into Illyrians. Those who went north eventually became Celts and Germans. Those who reached Britain and Ireland eventually became Gaels.
Later the descendants of the Vincans returned, in waves from all sides, bringing with them new cultural and linguistic characteristics which they acquired over the centuries while mixing with the indo European peoples they had conquered. These new cultural and linguistic layers were deposited on top of the old European strand of Vinca culture which was created from the mix of Vincans and the other old European cultures. Steppe people came from the east, Asia minor and Mesopotamians from the south east, North African people from the south, Atlantic people from the west. And the Vinca culture slowly disappeared.
The isolation of the Irish at the end of Europe, and the sheer number and military strength of the mountain people of the Balkans and the Central European mountains helped them to preserve this Vinca cultural and linguistic layer to this day, albeit covered with thick layers of Gaelic and Slavic and many other cultures and Languages.
Comparing these two languages I believe that I have now uncovered this culture and language of old Europe. It could not be better.
But this is not all.
I also believe that in this old language I have discovered a possibility to reconstruct the oldest language spoken in Europe, the language before the language. I believe that I have discovered how the first language was formed in Europe from natural sounds, and how this earliest human language was preserved and conserved in the Irish and Serbian languages and their base words.
To support my theory, I have accumulated a lot of material which I am translating into English. I am planning to make it available as soon as possible. The work is however in progress and I am writing this to invite everyone who might be interested to help me to continue this investigation as this is becoming too big and too important for just one man.
I hope this does not sound too mad or pretentious. You have to believe me that I am pinching myself every day, as it is hard to believe that anyone can be so lucky to stumble across something like this…
 
Ok first things first. I need to define what and who the "Serbs" are. It seems that “Serb” or probably originally just SRB originally meant a member of a Vincan military elite, almost like a religious military order. This name for a warrior was spread around the world with vincan invaders and could explain all the Sar, Ser, Sur, Sir, Sor, names, toponymes, place names that we find strewn from Britain to Mesopotamia.
Only much later in the old Vinca land, and in the adjoining central European lands between Balkans and Baltic, this became the name for tribes ruled by this warrior elite. Maybe this was the name that Vincans used to call themselves, and that is the reason it survived in the Balkan - Baltic area, but i can't prove that.

So lets see where the meaning of Serb comes from:


Saor in Irish means free.
Sar in Irish is a suffix which means the best, grandest, highest, most respected
Bean in Irish means to strike, to cut which together means to fight.

bean

touch, Irish beanaim, beat, touch, appertain to, Old Irish benim, pulso, ferio, Breton bena, to cut, Middle Breton benaff, hit; *bina, root bin, bi (Old Irish ro bi, percussit, bithe, perculsus), from Indo-European bhi, bhei, hit; Church Slavonic bija, biti, strike; Old High German bîhal, axe; Greek @Gfitrós, log. Further is root bheid, split, English bite. Usually bean has been referred to Indo-European @ghen, @ghon, hit, slay; Greek @Gfen-, slay, @Gepefnon, slew, @Gfónos, slaughter, @Gqeínw, strike; Sanskrit han, hit; but @gh = Gaelic b is doubtful.


So Sar + bi, bin – The one who is the best in fighting, a solder

In Serbian we have verb bit, which means to strike. In Serbian if you want to make a noun out of a verb that ends in vowel, in masculine form you would ad "n". So Sar + b(h)i + n = The one who is the best at striking....

There is no etymology to be found for Serbian, Sarbian in any Slavic language and this has long been a hot topic of contention…So this is obviously pre Slavic word.
 
Ok first things first. I need to define what and who the "Serbs" are. It seems that “Serb” or probably originally just SRB originally meant a member of a Vincan military elite, almost like a religious military order. This name for a warrior was spread around the world with vincan invaders and could explain all the Sar, Ser, Sur, Sir, Sor, names, toponymes, place names that we find strewn from Britain to Mesopotamia.
Only much later in the old Vinca land, and in the adjoining central European lands between Balkans and Baltic, this became the name for tribes ruled by this warrior elite. Maybe this was the name that Vincans used to call themselves, and that is the reason it survived in the Balkan - Baltic area, but i can't prove that.

So lets see where the meaning of Serb comes from:


Saor in Irish means free.
Sar in Irish is a suffix which means the best, grandest, highest, most respected
Bean in Irish means to strike, to cut which together means to fight.

bean

touch, Irish beanaim, beat, touch, appertain to, Old Irish benim, pulso, ferio, Breton bena, to cut, Middle Breton benaff, hit; *bina, root bin, bi (Old Irish ro bi, percussit, bithe, perculsus), from Indo-European bhi, bhei, hit; Church Slavonic bija, biti, strike; Old High German bîhal, axe; Greek @Gfitrós, log. Further is root bheid, split, English bite. Usually bean has been referred to Indo-European @ghen, @ghon, hit, slay; Greek @Gfen-, slay, @Gepefnon, slew, @Gfónos, slaughter, @Gqeínw, strike; Sanskrit han, hit; but @gh = Gaelic b is doubtful.


So Sar + bi, bin – The one who is the best in fighting, a solder

In Serbian we have verb bit, which means to strike. In Serbian if you want to make a noun out of a verb that ends in vowel, in masculine form you would ad "n". So Sar + b(h)i + n = The one who is the best at striking....

There is no etymology to be found for Serbian, Sarbian in any Slavic language and this has long been a hot topic of contention…So this is obviously pre Slavic word.

nonsense, this has already been discussed in another thread here - who are the thracians.

Vinca culture is proto-thracian , not proto-slavic. The thracians where the best metal workers ( pre-iron ) , (stated by historians), then the celts took over once iron came about.

The serbs are not slavs ethnically, they are from the thracian triballi tribe and have been in present serbia for a long time, there is no migration for serbs. The serbs became slavs after they learnt the language of the slavs in the early middle ages.
Even serb nobility claim the wild boar of the triballi as part of their coat of arms.

look and search the net for triballi, seek byzantine documents as well.
 
Zanipolo, please check out the map I posted on hg T in the haplogroup T thread and comment wat you think of its distribution :) ( sorry for going off-topic)
 
Vinca culture is proto-thracian , not proto-slavic...The serbs are not slavs ethnically, they are from the thracian triballi tribe

You are not reading properly what i wrote. I am actually saying that Serbs are not Slavs, i am saying that they are Slavicised. All i am saying is that they have preserved a lot of pre Slavic and pre Indo european cultural and linguistic characteristics which become obvious when you compare Serbian and Irish languages.

Can you please stop fighting with someone who actually probably thinks the same as you. Read what i wrote again.

As for Thracians, a lot of cultural links going from Greece lead to Thessaly and from there lead to Thracia, the land of the red heads and indeed one of the descendants (with Illyrians and Celts) of Vinca culture. I am only now covering this period, and would be glad if we could compare the knowledge and understanding of that period. Also if you have any knowledge of Thracian language of if you know anyone who does, it would be great to compare all the common words from Irish and Serbian which i have uncovered so far, with deciphered (and still undeciphered) Thracian words, and see if there are any overlaps.

Zanipolo, You know that i was a pan Slavist. You must understand how hard was for me to accept that we Serbs have more in common, genetically and culturally and linguistically, with germanic and gaelic people than with Russians? But i believe that what i have discovered (accidentally) is very important and needs to be published.

So lets just start again...:)
 
In Serbia you can find Mountain Tara and river Tara, but also mountain taor which is how you pronounce Teamhair (tavor, taor (tabor)) the actual old name of Tara in Ireland. People who live in this part of Serbia call themselves "Ere" and there is even a male personal name Era.

In Serbian tabor is a military camp. Utaboriti se is to set up camp. Taborovati is to camp. Tavoriti is standing in one place, not moving. Tabor, Tavor, Taur, Tara....

I know that word tabor also exists in turkish with the same meaning (a military camp), but this word predates the Turks and I believe that it is a borrowing from Serbian (Irish, Vinca language). There is a mount Taur in Lycia, the tallest mountain range in Anatolia which predates the Turkish invasions of Asia Minor. There is also attested Celtic presence in Asia Minor many centuries before Turks arrived. Huge number of Balkan "Slavs", were settled in the eastern parts of Anatolia in the early medieval time by the Byzantine empire to man the military frontier. Later on, after the Turkish conquest, core of the military elite quickly became predominantly manned by the Balkan “Slavs”. Janissary (infantry) and Delije (Cavalry) were predominantly of Balkan "Slavic" Serbian origin. Cavalry was always the strongest force in the Serbian army. The superiority of the Serbian cavalry in the 12th to 15th century Europe was absolute. They were considered the best cavalry in Europe and European Hussars originate in the late 15th-century Serbian warriors that had left Ottoman Serbia, beginning in the 14th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_hussars

At the moment there are several million Turks with Serbian (Bosnian) descent living in Turkey. So tabor can well be a very old Serbian, Irish, Vinca word for a military camp, which came into Turkish as a borrowing. Another proof that word Tabor comes from central Europe is that it is found in the languages spoken in central European lands never conquered by Turks, like Czech and Slovak...If you look at what the world for military camp is in European languages, You will see that these languages use word Tabor: South Slavic, Romanian, Czech, Slovak, Ukrainian, . Russians use лагерь, Bulgarians лагер…All Germanic and Latin based languages use Camp, including Irish…

And by the way there is no clear etymology for tara or Teamhair in Gaelic....

In Serbian "Taraba" is a fence, a barrier in front of the house, and "Za-tarabiti" is to place behind barier, to fence off....There is a word "Tar" in Irish which means to pass, so taraba could be from "tar abhaile" which means to arrive home, where taraba would be the fence that surrounds home, which signifies that you have arrived. Place of arrival kind of corresponds to tabor. You arrive to Tabor.

I believe that this also supports the above etymology for Tara, Taor, Tabor:


The Hill of Tara lies about midway between the towns of Dunshaughlin and Navan in the gently rolling countryside of south central Meath. The monuments comprising the core of the Tara complex are scattered along a low ridge about 2km long, orientated roughly north - south, a little to the west of the main Dublin-Navan road. Unimposing from the east, which is the usual modern approach, the ground rises steadily to about 155m above sea-level before dropping away quite steeply to the west, presenting an impressive vista over the central plain of Ireland.

This aspect is implicit in one of the two etymologies of its Irish name, Teamhair, provided by the ninth-century text Sanas Chormaic, i.e. a height from which there is a fine view. An alternative, and possibly more accurate, etymology emphasises the liminal nature of Tara, suggesting that the name has something to do with twilight or darkness, perhaps a sacred space or the gates to the Otherworld. It is likely, nevertheless, that the sense of elevation at Tara, which is conferred by the surrounding panorama rather than by its actual height above sea-level, was a key factor in the choice of this place for ceremonial activity.

http://www.knowth.com/tara-survey.htm

You set up tabor (military camp) on top of hills from which you can have a good view of the surrounding countryside...So in 9th century they still remembered (vaguely) the original meaning of the word. Now however we have this mumbo jumbo light dark crap which is "possibly more accurate".


It is also interesting that the hill of Tara Is in the area of Ireland which once belonged to the kingdom of Brega. In Serbian "Breg" means a small hill, and particularly man made hill. In Irish "breg" has no meaning, although i did find it translated in some places as "hill". So Breg Tabor was in the kingdom of Brega.

Here is an interesting poem from 10-12th century which talks about "tabor (Temair) breg":

http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T106500A/text001.html

The poem starts:

Temair Breg, whence is it named? Declare O sages!

Then it goes on to explain:


Cathair Crofhind ('twas not amiss)
30] was its name under the Tuatha De Danand,
till there came Tea, never unjust,
the wife of Erimon lofty of mien.
Round her house was built a rampart
by Tea daughter of Lugaid;
35] she was buried beyond the wall without,
so that from her is Temair named.
The Seat of the Kings was its name:
the kingly line of the Milesians reigned in it:
five names accordingly were given it
40] from the time when it was Fordruim till it was Temair.

So Tuatha De Danan ruled this land. They gave the name to "tabor breg". Then Milesians came and conquered the area, and the meaning of the name was forgotten. According to the Irish chronicles, Tuatha De Danan came from the North East, from across the sea, from South Baltic. They spoke a language in which "tabor breg" had a meaning. Milesians came from south west, from across the sea, from Spain. They spoke Gaelic, the language in which "tabor breg" does not have meaning.

...The Tuatha Dé Danann were descended from Nemed...Nemed was the son of Agnoman of Scythia...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_Dé_Danann
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemed

Milesians

Milesians are a people figuring in Irish mythology. The descendants of Míl Espáine (which is the Irish form of Latin Miles Hispaniae, "Soldier of Hispania"), they were the final inhabitants of Ireland invading the country from Iberia, and were believed to represent the Goidelic (or Gaelic) Celts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milesians_(Irish)

On the fifth page of the poem it says:

Mag Breg with numerous hills

Here is what is said about the kingdom of Brega:


Brega took its name from Mag Breg, the plain of Brega in modern County Meath, County Louth and County Dublin, Ireland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_of_Brega

Does Kingdom of Brega means the Kingdom of the hills, Tumuluses? There aren't too many tumuluses in Ireland. There are many in the Balkans. Obviously the tumulus culture came from the Balkans to Ireland.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus

A tumulus can be found close to the Grianán of Aileach in County Donegal. It has been suggested by historians such as George Petrie, who surveyed the site in the early 19th century, that the tumulus may predate the ring fort of Aileach by many centuries possibly to the neolithic age. Surrounding stones were laid horizontally, and converged towards the centre. the mound had been excavated in Petrie’s time, but nothing explaining its meaning was discovered. It was subsequently destroyed, but its former position is marked by a heap of broken stones. Similar mounds can be found at The Hill of Tara and there are several prominent tumuli at Brú na Bóinne in County Meath.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C3%BA_na_B%C3%B3inne
 
this is pointless, you're linking people that are not much related. Serbs and Irish are relatively far. Genetically: serbs, bulgarians, romanians, albanians, macedonians, montenegrins, and northern greeks cluster together. This group is just as far from Russia as it is from from Britain. The next closest group is italians. Another close group is the more southern one composed of Sicilians, southern greeks, and Levantines.
 
this is pointless, you're linking people that are not much related. Serbs and Irish are relatively far.

This is the whole point. They are far and should not have any overlapping cultural and linguistic characteristics. But i have found hundreds of words, names, grammatical constructs, sayings, customs, beliefs, legends which are the same or are complementing each other. This is only possible if at some, very distant time these now unrelated people were one and the same. I am betting on the I haplogroup, And particularly on I2a as being the carriers of that culture. So for me Vinca = Illyria = Central Europan Celts = Lusatian culture = Old Irish culture = Central European western and south Slavic cultures = I2a. But also all the other I haplogroups I1 = Norse Germanic culture as well. These two were mixed anyway in Central Europe...

For many years--and despite enormous sums spent on WTYs etc.--the I2a-Dinaric clade common in Central-Eastern Europe has been very resistant to SNP definition and partition. Not a single SNP was found to split the clade, and the only SNP to define the clade was L147, which occurs in multiple other haplogroups and hence is not sufficiently "unique" for the FTDNA haplotree.

But finally, Geno 2.0 results have identified two SNPs that split Dinaric, and three more that define it. All five are now available for order from FTDNA.

CTS10228 and CTS5966 were ancestral in one south-central Polish Dinaric, but derived in about seven other Dinarics across Central-Eastern Europe.

CTS10936, CTS11768, and CTS4002 were derived in all eight Dinarics, but ancestral in the nearest related clade (Disles).

The one Dinaric that tested negative for CTS10228 and CTS5966 has ordered Y-DNA67, but no marker results have arrived yet.


http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthr...s-that-define-and-split-the-I2a-Dinaric-clade

So there is a definite old link between Balkan I2a and Irish and British I2a. R1b (gaelic) came much later (2500 bc) from Spain and southern France. But they only subdued the whole of Ireland in the early medieval time, so this is why this old culture survived for so long...

 
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Scotish Mc may cognate with Thracian Muca
muca in Thracian as also in some anatolian is the kids, the seed, the sons.
 

So there is a definite old link between Balkan I2a and Irish and British I2a.


I2a1b2 = british
(I2a1b3, I2a1b1) = dinaric
so we're talking about completely different subclades. There is no evidence that I2a1b2 got to britain from the balkans. If you want a real balkan-irish connection look at the pre-slavic I2a2b.
 
at Dublin

The Vinca culture is (as you also wrote) Old Europe; meaning Pre-Indo-European

Harald Haarmann - Early Civilization and Literacy in Europe (1995)
The chronology of this area starting about 5300 B.C. is best established at the site of Vinca southeast of Belgrade on the southern bank of the Danube. The so-called Vinca culture emerged from the older layers of the Starcevo culture in the area, and it is indicative of a cultural continuity since the mid-seventh millennium B.C. Archaeology has confirmed that the pre-IndoEuropean population in southeastern Europe possessed a script and that writing was a cultural institution in its own right.

Endre Bojtar - Forward to the Past (1997) [Central European Uni. Press]
Between 4300 and 3500 BC the Indo-Europeans destroyed the Varna, Karanovo, Vinca, Petresti, Lengyel, Tisza, and Danilo-Hvar cultures; then between 3500 and 3000 BC the Cucujeni culture.

Keltic people = Indo-Europeans
Keltic and proto-Keltic cultures =
Unetice -> Tumulus -> Urnfield (proto-keltic) -> Hallstatt (keltic) -> La Tene (keltic)
[All Indo-European cultures]

From Unetice to beginning Hallstatt the time-line is 1800 BC - 750 BC;

So the Vinca culture (5300 BC - 3500 BC / pre-Indo-European) has absolutely nothing to do with Indo-Europeans or the development of the Indo-European Kelts.

The Varna culture (4400 BC - 3900 BC / Black Sea coast) is the earliest Pre-Indo-European culture that had contacts with the Indo-Europeans of the Kurgan steppe culture-complex (caspian-pontic steppes = Indo-European Urheimat).

Thomas H. Greer - A Brief History Of The Western World (2005)
The nomads who had the most far-reaching influence on Europe were a prehistoric people or group of peoples, known today as the Indo-Europeans. Probably originating in the steppes of present-day southern Russia, they spread outward from their homeland over many centuries between 4000 and 1000 BC; as raiders, conquerors and rulers.

British Institute of Archaeology at Ankara
- Ancient Anatolia (1998)
increasing evidence for disastrous happenings in Romania and Bulgaria as barbarous, almost certainly Indo-European, peoples moved west massacring and causing panic. The Gumelnitsa-Karanovo VI culture was destroyed.

David W. Anthony - The Horse, the Wheel, and Language (2010) [Princeton Uni.]
Between about 4200 and 3900 BCE more than six hundred tell settlements of the Gumelnita, Karanovo VI and varna cultures were burned and abandoned in the lower danube valley and eastern Bulgaria. Some of their residents dispersed temporarily into smaller villages like the Gumelnita B1 hamlet of Jilava, southwest of Bucharest, with just five to six houses and a single-level cultural deposit. "We are faced with the complete replacement of a culture" the foremost expert on Eneolithic metallurgy E. N. Chernykh said. It was "a catastrophe of colossal scope...a complete cultural caesura" according to the Bulgarian archaeologist H. Todorova

The emergence of the Indo-Europeans in Europe (East Balkan / Black sea coast) was earliest ~4000 BC.

So, again, your link between Vinca (pre-Indo-Europeans) 5300-3500 BC and Keltic people (Indo-Europeans) proto-proper 1800-700 BC is therefor (completely) wrong.
It is however possible that pre-Indo-Europeans from the Balkans settled in Ireland and Britain, but they have nothing to do with the Keltic Indo-Europeans.

The Kelts in Ireland could have been Celt-Iberians from spain; both (and only) Q-Celtic and ever heard of the Míl Espáine.
 
You are not reading properly what i wrote. I am actually saying that Serbs are not Slavs, i am saying that they are Slavicised. All i am saying is that they have preserved a lot of pre Slavic and pre Indo european cultural and linguistic characteristics which become obvious when you compare Serbian and Irish languages.

Can you please stop fighting with someone who actually probably thinks the same as you. Read what i wrote again.

As for Thracians, a lot of cultural links going from Greece lead to Thessaly and from there lead to Thracia, the land of the red heads and indeed one of the descendants (with Illyrians and Celts) of Vinca culture. I am only now covering this period, and would be glad if we could compare the knowledge and understanding of that period. Also if you have any knowledge of Thracian language of if you know anyone who does, it would be great to compare all the common words from Irish and Serbian which i have uncovered so far, with deciphered (and still undeciphered) Thracian words, and see if there are any overlaps.

Zanipolo, You know that i was a pan Slavist. You must understand how hard was for me to accept that we Serbs have more in common, genetically and culturally and linguistically, with germanic and gaelic people than with Russians? But i believe that what i have discovered (accidentally) is very important and needs to be published.

So lets just start again...:)

Then stop using the term proto-slavic, there was many more ethnicity in the balkans before the slavs arrived.

In regards to thracians, well herodous stated, the most populous people in the world ( his world) after the indians where the Thracians. I recently discovered that the cimmerians where related to the thracians. Check them out.

You need to also check the Varna culture ....was it early thracian
 
this is pointless, you're linking people that are not much related. Serbs and Irish are relatively far. Genetically: serbs, bulgarians, romanians, albanians, macedonians, montenegrins, and northern greeks cluster together. This group is just as far from Russia as it is from from Britain. The next closest group is italians. Another close group is the more southern one composed of Sicilians, southern greeks, and Levantines.

As per historians, the serbs where thracians and the Roman army incorporated thracians and used them in Britain, then he has some ties.
 
To zanipolo

Then stop using the term proto-slavic, there was many more ethnicity in the balkans before the slavs arrived.

Central European and south European Slavs are descendants of the Vinca people, both from the Illyrian Celtic side and from the Skythian Sarmatian side. New layers get added by the old don't dispersal. Otherwise you would not be able to find all these things in Serbian "slavic" culture...

As per historians, the serbs where thracians

I don't agree with this. Serbs were not a nation but a warrior caste, which existed in all the central European nations including Thrakians and in Rome. Serbs only became a nation in medieval time although as i said maybe vincan people called themselves sarbi but i can't and have no interest in proving this. But it is interesting that late medieval territory occupied by Serbs is almost identical to the territory of Vinca culture???


To Nobody


So, again, your link between Vinca (pre-Indo-Europeans) 5300-3500 BC and Keltic people (Indo-Europeans) proto-proper 1800-700 BC is therefor (completely) wrong.
It is however possible that pre-Indo-Europeans from the Balkans settled in Ireland and Britain, but they have nothing to do with the Keltic Indo-Europeans.


Connection exists. Vinca cultural and economic expansion probably started before 3500 bc. Their full scale invasion of the rest of the world started some time after 3500 bc. They reached among other places Greece, Crete, Asia Minor and eventually Egypt. There in Egypt they started great Egyptian civilization which later bore Mynoan civilization which later bore Mycenaean civilization which then came back home and started the proto Celto Illyrian civilization.
They also went east and started Mesopotamian civilizatons, Indian civilization...The Indo Europeans who invaded Europe were just coming back home.


What is important to understand about these Vinca guys, is that they were not a nation, but a military oligarchy, which would impose itself on other people, force their beliefs and culture on them and form something of a mix of local and Vincan culture. They were small in number, but technologically superior and completely bloody minded. So they would conquer a tribe and couple of centuries later effectively dissapear in the sea of their subjects. These tribes, now equipped with new weapons and technology, would have no problem attacking other Vinca conquered tribes, and even Vinca homeland itself...
I actually can prove direct religious link from Vinca (3500 bc) to Delphi (800 bc). This will make a lot of things clearer...If there is a religious and cultural and linguistic continuity between Vinca and Serbs and Irish of today, then there must be some link between Vinca and "the celts"...
 
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To zanipolo



Central European and south European Slavs are descendants of the Vinca people, both from the Illyrian Celtic side and from the Skythian Sarmatian side. New layers get added by the old don't dispersal. Otherwise you would not be able to find all these things in Serbian "slavic" culture...



I don't agree with this. Serbs were not a nation but a warrior caste, which existed in all the central European nations including Thrakians and in Rome. Serbs only became a nation in medieval time.

nonsense, the serbs I explained, the bulgarians are turkic people from central asia who settled firstly in the north of the black sea and learnt slavic there, they then went to modern bulgaria.
The croats, even though some of their people say that they are goths from sarmatia are said, by their historians to be northern iranian people, who went via the steppes into modern croatia, again learning slavic in the steppes.
The montengrians are a mix of southern illlyrian, serb/thracian and croats/bosnians.
The slovenians are from slovaks areas and are more related to czechs and poles than other southern slav people.

Serbs where warrior caste plugged out of the triballi thracians for byzantine border armies to combat the dacians. they where assembled to fight the southern Bessi thracians who the byzantines had trouble with, even though before hand the Romans dispersed a lot of these Bessi people to NE-Italy and SE-France.
 
Connection exists.

No they dont,
not Archaeologically, not Anthropologically and not Linguistically.

read my post #11 again.

then came back home and started the proto Celto Illyrian civilization.

Pre-(non)-Indo-Europeans did not turn into Indo-Europeans.

Vinca was pre-Indo-European, Kelts were Indo-European, Illyrians were Indo-Europeans and Indo-Europeans were from the Caspian-Pontic steppes (Urheimat)

read my post #11 again.

What is important to understand about these Vinca guys, is that they were not a nation, but a military oligarchy, which would impose itself on other people, force their beliefs and culture on them and form something of a mix of local and Vincan culture. They were small in number, but technologically superior and completely bloody minded.

from my post #11

Endre Bojtar - Forward to the Past (1997) [Central European Uni. Press]
Between 4300 and 3500 BC the Indo-Europeans destroyed the Varna, Karanovo, Vinca, Petresti, Lengyel, Tisza, and Danilo-Hvar cultures; then between 3500 and 3000 BC the Cucujeni culture.

Thomas H. Greer - A Brief History Of The Western World (2005)
The nomads who had the most far-reaching influence on Europe were a prehistoric people or group of peoples, known today as the Indo-Europeans. Probably originating in the steppes of present-day southern Russia, they spread outward from their homeland over many centuries between 4000 and 1000 BC; as raiders, conquerors and rulers.

seems like those Vinca warriors from the military oligarchy, were simply overrun by the Indo-Europeans from the steppes.

But as i said in my previous post #11, there could have been Pre-Indo-European migrations and contacts; like between Ertebolle and the Danubian-Carpathian culture.

Elements of Vinca could have appeared in Indo-European societies, in the sense that the Indo-Europeans who conquered the Vinca culture area adopted certain elements and mixed with the pre-Indo-European Vinca population.

But that still wouldnt include the Kelts because, the Kelts have a different culture-line:
Unetice -> Tumulus -> Urnfield (proto-keltic) -> Hallstatt (keltic) -> La Tene (keltic) / and all are Indo-European

Serbs and Irish of today, then there must be some link between Vinca and "the celts".

once again;
The Kelts in Ireland could have been Celt-Iberians from Spain; both (and only) Q-Celtic and have you ever heard of the Míl Espáine.
Doubtful that the Serbs also have the Míl Espáine as their folk-story.
 
Nobody

No they dont, not Archaeologically, not Anthropologically and not Linguistically.

Ok just because you say they don't that doesn't mean they don't. Maybe you just don't know about them. There is proven spread of Vinca artefact from the Balkans from 3500 bc. There is also proven continuity of Vinca culture in Central Europe to this day.
At the moment i have only presented the conclusion. Let me present the evidence that i have found, then criticize. This way we are going nowhere.

once again; The Kelts in Ireland could have been Celt-Iberians from Spain; both (and only) Q-Celtic and have you ever heard of the Míl Espáine. Doubtful that the Serbs also have the Míl Espáine as their folk-story.

I did hear of them. They (or milesians which are probably one and the same) are the carriers of Gaelic culture and R1b gene.
But i am talking about much older cultural layer which is preserved in irish language and culture.

Zanipolo

All these these people you are talking about came to balkans and mixed with the existing population which descends directly from Vincans. They eventually produce today's south Slavs. I am not talking about that at all.

Guys

You saying no and me saying yes makes no sense and leads nowhere. Let me present my finds, it will be much more fun then.
 
Nobody



Ok just because you say they don't that doesn't mean they don't. Maybe you just don't know about them. There is proven spread of Vinca artefact from the Balkans from 3500 bc. There is also proven continuity of Vinca culture in Central Europe to this day.
This is a very faulty logic. Constant occupation of certain land by people doesn't mean continuity of culture, with elements like religion, language, art, musical instruments or everyday items.
Show as one artifact found and dated to 3000BC, and as such is still in use today.
 
Ok just because you say they don't that doesn't mean they don't.

Thats true,
however its not just me saying that its also all the sources i quoted above [post #11] saying that.

There is proven spread of Vinca artefact from the Balkans from 3500 bc. There is also proven continuity of Vinca culture in Central Europe to this day.

its not that difficult to understand;

Harald Haarmann - Early Civilization and Literacy in Europe (1995)
The chronology of this area starting about 5300 B.C. is best established at the site of Vinca southeast of Belgrade on the southern bank of the Danube. The so-called Vinca culture emerged from the older layers of the Starcevo culture in the area, and it is indicative of a cultural continuity since the mid-seventh millennium B.C.

Endre Bojtar - Forward to the Past (1997) [Central European Uni. Press]
Between 4300 and 3500 BC the Indo-Europeans destroyed the Varna, Karanovo, Vinca, Petresti, Lengyel, Tisza, and Danilo-Hvar cultures; then between 3500 and 3000 BC the Cucujeni culture.

The continuity of Starcevo (7th mil BC) -> Vinca (3500 BC) was broken with the emergence of the conquering Indo-Europeans from the steppes.

However:
Elements of Vinca could have appeared in Indo-European societies (central-europe), in the sense that the Indo-Europeans who conquered the Vinca culture area adopted certain elements and mixed with the pre-Indo-European Vinca population.

But thats not a continuity, thats a clear shift/break from Vinca.

But i am talking about much older cultural layer which is preserved in irish language and culture.

You might even be correct about that, but that older cultural layer is def. not the Keltic Indo-Europeans.
Since you link that older cultural layer to Vinca you have to look at Pre-Indo-European populations.
 
Lebrock

This is a very faulty logic. Constant occupation of certain land by people doesn't mean continuity of culture, with elements like religion, language, art, musical instruments or everyday items.
Show as one artifact found and dated to 3000BC, and as such is still in use today.

Whole towns are currently being excavated in Serbia from Vinca period. According to archaeologists, they are built in the same way and are furnished in the same way as Serbian village houses from 1950s. My grand parents lived in one of those houses when i was a kid and used the same wooden and metal tools and furniture as are today found in vinca houses. The decorations on traditional clothing, ceramics, carpets, furniture are very similar, based on the same geometrical designs and sometimes identical. If you are interested in this you will need to contact people who are currently doing the excavations.
I have found the exact same religious artifacts in vinca and in pre-classical and classical Greece and for which Greeks claim that they do not originate in Greece....

Again, Please criticizing my conclusion without knowing what led me to it, or plainly ignoring my arguments is counter productive for everyone.

Nobody

What i can see from archaeological evidence, Vinca culture has moved out of Balkans during 4th millennium. All great civilizations from Sumer to Egypt appear with exactly the same Vinca type symbols just after Vinca culture disappears from Balkans. This to me is a clear sign of a warrior culture on the move. Vincans at the time of Indo European invasions were so much more technologically advanced, that they were like someone with a machine gun on a early medieval battlefield.

Between 4300 and 3500 BC the Indo-Europeans destroyed the Varna, Karanovo, Vinca, Petresti, Lengyel, Tisza, and Danilo-Hvar cultures; then between 3500 and 3000 BC the Cucujeni culture.

Look at the location of all these cultures, all in the steppes above Danube. If Vincans have heard the news of what was going on in the north, they could have decided that it is time to move.


Elements of Vinca could have appeared in Indo-European societies (central-europe), in the sense that the Indo-Europeans who conquered the Vinca culture area adopted certain elements and mixed with the pre-Indo-EuropeanVinca population.
This probably did happen with some parts of the vinca culture, above danube.

But thats not a continuity, thats a clear shift/break fromVinca.

What exactly then is a continuity? For Indo Europeans to accept some of Vinca cultural traits, they must have kept some Vincans (probably women) alive. Their children are as much Vincans as much they are Indo Europens. I am a Serb and my wife is Irish. What is my son? He is learning both Serbian and Irish and English, he supports both football teams except when they play against each other in which case he goes for Ireland. I believe both Irish and Serbian...

Look

I agree that what i am saying is new and veeeeeeeeery controversial. But i still believe that i have been able to prove the continuity of vinca culture in Europe all the way to today, not just in Serbs and Irish but in all the Europeans. Please let me present my argument, and then if we here agree that what i have found is the oldest and earliest Indo Europen religion that's not bad either.

But i don't thing Kronos belongs to Indo European pantheon...And he is exactly who i found first...
 
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