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adamo
03-05-13, 11:45
Who where the Sabines, Samnites, oscans, Umbrians, brutii, Volscians, Marsi? I heard that oscans where related people's such as pelasgian oenotrians of southern Hesperia, where the Samnites Greeks, middle eastern or italics? Thread to discuss the origins of all these italian groups!: )

Nobody1
03-05-13, 12:37
Indo-Europeans for starters and all linked to the (Indo-European) Umbrians

Isaac Taylor - The Origin of the Aryans (1890)
Towards the close of the neolithic age the same Aryan-speaking race which constructed the Swiss pile dwellings seems to have crossed the Alps, erecting their pile dwellings in the Italian lakes and in the marshes of the valley of the Po. Helbig has proved that these people must be identified with those whom we call the Umbrians. This conclusion, established solely on archaeological grounds, is confirmed by the close connection between Celtic and Italic speech, and also by the almost identical civilization disclosed by the pile dwellings of Italy [North] and those of Switzerland.

http://imageshack.us/a/img13/8729/languages.png

Pliny - Natural History (79 AD)
"The race of the Umbri is considered the oldest in Italy."
"They suppose that the Umbri, or, as the Greeks call them, Ombrioi, are so named, because they survived the inundation of the world by floods of rain (imbribus)." —(C. Plin. lib. ii. Nat. Hist. c. 14.)

James C. Prichard - Ethnography of Europe: Vol.III (1841)
Solinus informs us that Bocchus, a writer who has been several times cited by Pliny, reported the Umbri to have been descended from the ancient Gauls; and a similar account of their origin has been adopted, either from the same or from different testimony, by Servius, Isidore, and other writers of a late period.

[Umbri, Italiae gens est, sed Gallorum veterum propago]

---

Sabines & Samnites

Sabines as well as the Samnites were Umbrian Indo-European branches, that mixed with the pre-Indo-European Oenotrian-Pelasgians in South Italy and the pre-Indo-European Ligurians in North and Pelasgians in Central Italy.

James Cowles Prichard - Researches into the physical History of Mankind: Vol.3 (1841)
[B]Dionysius cites one Xenodotus of Troezene, who wrote the history of the Umbrians. According to him the Sabines were originally an Umbrian people,

Thomas Henry Dyer - The history of the kings of Rome (1886)
These various races are commonly ranked under the three grand divisions of Umbrians, Sabellians, and Latins; though some writers, as Dr. Mommsen, recognise only two, including under the Umbrians those races which others call Sabellian. The Sabellian races included the Sabines and the Samnites, with the tribes which sprung from them, as the Marsi, Marrucini, Peligni, Picentes, Hirpini, and others. The near connexion between theSabines and the Samnites is shewn by the fact that the latter called themselves [I]Safini with a change of b into f And that the term Sabellus was applied both to Samnites and Sabines appears from several passages in ancient authors. Horace uses it of both races. Pliny says that the Samnites were called Sabelli, and Livy identifies the Sabellian territory with that of Samnium.

Also the Sacrani are identified with the Sabines and their Ver Sacrum (Sacred Spring).

Princely tomb from the Sabine Hills - all in NY CARLSBERG GLYPTOTEK (Denmark)
http://www.glyptoteket.com/explore/the-collections/artwork/princely-tomb-sabine-hills

Sabine - Bronze shields from the Sabine Hills (near Rome) - NY CARLSBERG GLYPTOTEK
http://imageshack.us/a/img6/9175/sabine1r.jpg

Sabine - Sun Disk from the tomb from Fara in Sabina
http://imageshack.us/a/img836/6494/sabine2.png

Samnite warrior - [Capua fresco 4th cen BC] / Samnite helmet from Lavello
http://www.sanniti.info/sanimage/sannita5.jpg http://www.sanniti.info/sanimage/lavello02.jpg

Needless to say that the Samnites had massive influence from Magna Graecia, same for the Lucani and Brutii.

But the Greeks considered them all (incl. Romans) Barbarians.

Dionysius of Halicarnasses - Roman Antiquities (29BC)
But, if any are, naturally, slow in giving credit to accounts of ancient transactions without examination, let them be so in believing them to be Ligures, Umbri, or any other Barbarians;

Nobody1
03-05-13, 13:37
Pelasgians

John Denison Baldwin - Pre-Historic Nations (1869)
Dionysius of Halicarnassus, justly described as one of the most diligent and accurate antiquaries of his time, states that the first Pelasgian immigrants who settled in Italy went from Arcadia "seventeen generations before the Trojan War." Their leader was Oenotrus; on this account they were called Oenotrians. Dionysius says: "Antiochus, an ancient historian, relates that the Oenotrians were the first [Pelasgic] settlers known to have come into Italy; that one of this race, called Italus, was a king; and that Italus was succeeded by Morges,-from whom the Oenotrians were called Morgetes and Italians." The Oenotrians were followed by other Pelasgian colonies from Thessaly, and probably from other districts of the wide region occupied by the Pelasgic race.

The Pelasgians from Thessaly are described to have entered Italy via the Mouth of the Po.

Dionysius of Halicarnasses - Roman Antiquities (29BC)
greatest part of them, passing through the midland country, took refuge among the inhabitants of Dodona, their relations (against whom, as a sacred people, none would make war) where they continued some time. But, finding themselves grow troublesome, and the country not being sufficient to rapport them all, they lest it in obedience to an oracle, which commanded them to sail to Italy, then, called Saturnia: And, having prepared a great many ships, they passed the Ionian sea, endeavouring to reach the nearest parts of Italy. But, the wind being in the south, and they unacquainted with the coast, they were carried off to sea, and landed at one of the mouths of the Po, called Spines.

2 waves of Pelasgians, first from Arcadia (Oenotri) and the second from Thessaly (Tyrsenoi)

adamo
03-05-13, 14:13
Oh.my god...your name must be changed to SOMEBODY! So the Etruscans where Thessalian Greeks?? What about Lydia? I always thought the Marsi where pelasgian, I though sanitize , Samnites, was related to Sannoi tribe of Georgia in the Caucasus and Sabines was Greeks....?

Nobody1
03-05-13, 14:56
Oh.my god...your name must be changed to SOMEBODY! So the Etruscans where Thessalian Greeks?? What about Lydia? I always thought the Marsi where pelasgian, I though sanitize , Samnites, was related to Sannoi tribe of Georgia in the Caucasus and Sabines was Greeks....?

Not Thessalian Greeks, just Pelasgians from Thessaly.
However you are correct, Herodotus places the origin of the Tyrsenoi in Lydia (West Asia Minor); its Dionysius who places the origins of the Tyrsenoi in Thessaly.
Personally i think its absolutely secondary from where in the East Aegean the Tyrsenoi-Pelasgians originated.
Sabines are proper Umbrians, Samnites and Marsi just mixed Umbro-Pelasgians (Oenotrians) in the South of Italy (Saturnia).

Whats really interesting is that the Pelasgians on Lemnos were also called Tyrsenoi.

Jan Gijsbert Pieter Best - Thracians and Mycenaeans (1989)
Now, at this point it is interesting to note that the Pelasgoi, who according to Strabo fled from Boeotia to Athens and settled at the foot of the Hymettos, are identified by Thucydides with the Tyrrhenoi (= Tyrsenoi or Tarsinoi), occupying Lemnos and Chalkidike during the historical period

and its no coincident that exactly at Lemnos (East Aegean) , was were found the famous Stele
resembling the Etruscan (Tyrsenoi) language.

Lemnos stele [6th cen BC]
http://imageshack.us/a/img59/1298/steleh.png

adamo
03-05-13, 15:11
So Samnites and marsians are Umbrians that picked up pelasgian element. Where did the Thessalians originally come from? If there where tyrrhenians on Lemnos and Samothrace, this would put the, exponentially closer to western turkey.....maybe they first set up on those islands after leaving Anatolia and survived their for a very long time being compared to bands of pirates A.K.A. "Sea people's"

Nobody1
03-05-13, 15:44
Where did the Thessalians originally come from?

Strabo - Geographica (23AD)
As for the Pelasgi, almost all agree, in the first place, that some ancient tribe of that name spread throughout the whole of Greece, and particularly among the Aeolians of Thessaly.

Peter Derow - Herodotus and his World (2003)
Herodotos claims, in various statements, that all Greeks except the Dorians were originally Pelasgians. In 1.56-8 he characterizes the lonians as Pelasgians, whom he represents as non-Greeks who became Hellenized. Elsewhere he says that the Aeolians and the Arcadians were Pelasgian,


If there where tyrrhenians on Lemnos and Samothrace, this would put the, exponentially closer to western turkey.....maybe they first set up on those islands after leaving Anatolia and survived their for a very long time

Apparently the Pelasgians (Tyrsenoi) were chased out of Lemnos and then settled near Mount Athos.

Simon Hornblower - A Commentary on Thucydides: Books IV-V (1991)
Thucydides, still talking about the ethnic make-up of the Athos peoples, mentions Pelasgians descended from the Tyrrhenians, i.e. Etruscans, who once inhabited Lemnos.


being compared to bands of pirates A.K.A. "Sea people's"

Sea Peoples, are a very interesting point also in connection with Sardinia. But its mostly all not very conclusive, so it will remain a mystery.

dublin
03-05-13, 15:59
I can't believe that you have opened this thread. Now that is synchronicity. It is the Samnites who led me to Vinca, via Illyria, Arcadia, Thessaly and Thrace. I have pile of material and was planning to present it all on the vinca culture tread.

For now guys all i can say is follow the wolf.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samnium

Look at the Samnite flag....

adamo
03-05-13, 16:14
Well clearly at this point Sabine and Samnites are a germano-Celtic stock of R1b Italians and not J2 "Sannoi" Tzannoi of Georgia Armenia region. But then why where Sabines often in fatal conflict with the latins who eventually "subdued" the rest of the italics....also there is the Osco-Umbrian linguistic link of these R1b men, but I always thought that oscans ( Opici) where somehow pelasgians linked to greek opus or the Opsician area of influence in northwestern Anatolia near Troad (Troy.) also, the Umbrians are linked to the city of Assisi built by dardanus from the dardanians-Troy region of turkey...

dublin
03-05-13, 17:09
Well clearly at this point Sabine and Samnites are a germano-Celtic stock of R1b Italians

Yes germano-Celtic-Illyrian but I2, not R1b, haplogroup.

Nobody1
03-05-13, 17:45
also, the Umbrians are linked to the city of Assisi built by dardanus from the dardanians-Troy region of turkey...

Correct, (thats why i gave you the plus)

But who exactly was Dardanus? Dardanus was son of Corythus, King of Cortona

Brian Benjamin Shefton - Greek identity in the Western Mediterranean (2004)
According to Hellanicus (FGrHist 4 F 4), the Pelasgians founded Cortona in Etruria, coming from Spina.

from post#3

Dionysius of Halicarnasses - Roman Antiquities (29BC)
And, having prepared a great many ships, they passed the Ionian sea, endeavouring to reach the nearest parts of Italy. But, the wind being in the south, and they unacquainted with the coast, they were carried off to sea, and landed at one of the mouths of the Po, called Spines.[Spina]

we are talking about the exact same Pelasgians (Tyrsenoi), as mentioned before (2nd wave - Tyrsenoi). Your link to Asia Minor is very cool, might indicate that Herodotus was correct and not Dionysius.

The Tyrsenoi-Umbrian link is also well attested:

Cambrian Institute - The Cambrian Journal (1862)
from - Myrsilus Lesbius (Frag. De. Ital.);
"Xanthus writes that the Pelasgi invaded Thuscia, which was formerly called Umbria." "Tyrrhenus, arriving in the southern district of the Tiber, held it, and all the middle portion, from its sources to the spot where the Prisci Umbri inhabited; and he settled with them, and dwelt with them, and built the cities called the Maeonian and Tyrrhenian."

The Villanova culture [Villanova I 1100-900 BC and Villanova II 900-700 BC] of the Urnfield complex was an Umbrian - Pelasgian (Tyrsenoi) hybrid.

from: Kristian Kristiansen - Europe before History (1998)
http://imageshack.us/a/img823/5298/villanov2.png

The Umbrians were Indo-Europeans of the Bronze age (Terremare culture) and akin to the Indo-European Kelts.

Pliny - Natural History (79 AD)
"The race of the Umbri is considered the oldest in Italy." —(C. Plin. lib. ii. Nat. Hist. c. 14.)

Cambrian Institute - The Cambrian Journal (1862)
from Caius Sempronius (De Divis. Ital.,);
"The portion of the Apennines from the sources of the Tiber to the Nar, the Umbri inhabit, the oldest stock of the Old Gael, (Veteres Galli), as Augustus writes."
[Apenninum colunt Ligures, portionem vero Apennini inhabitant Umbri, prima veterum Gallorum proies, ut Augustus scribit.]

James C. Prichard - Ethnography of Europe: Vol.III (1841)
Solinus informs us that Bocchus, a writer who has been several times cited by Pliny, reported the Umbri to have been descended from the ancient Gauls; and a similar account of their origin has been adopted, either from the same or from different testimony, by Servius, Isidore, and other writers of a late period.
[Bocchus (affranchi lettre de Sylla) absolvit Gallorum veterum propaginem Umbros esse]
[Umbri, Italiae gens est, sed Gallorum veterum propago]

the linguistic link between Keltic and Italic, via Umbrian

Luke Owen Pike - The English and their Origin (1866)
If now we consult the Umbrian language with a view of discovering whether it approaches more nearly the Gaelic or the Cymric type, we find, scanty though the evidence may be, that Umbrian differs from Latin in precisely the same manner in which Cymric and Greek differ from Latin. The Latin qu becomes, in Umbrian, as in Welsh and Greek, p: e.g. Latin quatuor, Umbrian petur, Welsh pedwar. The Welsh uch, uchel, appears as the Umbrian ucar, the Greek aixpog; the Welsh hwra as the Umbrian hri, the Greek aipsco;

adamo
03-05-13, 18:18
Maeonians in Italy..amazing so the tyrrhenians WHERE west-central ANATOLIANS....the Umbrians had pelasgian cities but where celts? Don't get that part though...they absorbed dardanian/Tyrrhenian elements? Same for oscans as well? A mix maybe?

Nobody1
03-05-13, 19:04
so the tyrrhenians WHERE west-central ANATOLIANS....

If Herodotus is correct yes, if Dionysius is correct its Thessaly. But again absolutely secondary from where in the East Aegean they originated from. Pelasgians are Pelasgians.


the Umbrians had pelasgian cities but where celts? Don't get that part though...

Whats not to get???

The Umbrians

Isaac Taylor - The Origin of the Aryans (1890)
Towards the close of the neolithic age the same Aryan-speaking race which constructed the Swiss pile dwellings seems to have crossed the Alps, erecting their pile dwellings in the Italian lakes and in the marshes of the valley of the Po. Helbig has proved that these people must be identified with those whom we call the Umbrians. This conclusion, established solely on archaeological grounds, is confirmed by the close connection between Celtic and Italic speech, and also by the almost identical civilization disclosed by the pile dwellings of Italy [North] and those of Switzerland.

Pliny - Natural History (79 AD)
"The race of the Umbri is considered the oldest in Italy." —(C. Plin. lib. ii. Nat. Hist. c. 14.)

Cambrian Institute - The Cambrian Journal (1862)
from Caius Sempronius (De Divis. Ital.,);
"The portion of the Apennines from the sources of the Tiber to the Nar, the Umbri inhabit, the oldest stock of the Old Gael, (Veteres Galli), as Augustus writes."
[Apenninum colunt Ligures, portionem vero Apennini inhabitant Umbri, prima veterum Gallorum proies, ut Augustus scribit.]

James C. Prichard - Ethnography of Europe: Vol.III (1841)
Solinus informs us that Bocchus, a writer who has been several times cited by Pliny, reported the Umbri to have been descended from the ancient Gauls; and a similar account of their origin has been adopted, either from the same or from different testimony, by Servius, Isidore, and other writers of a late period.

[Umbri, Italiae gens est, sed Gallorum veterum propago]

James Cowles Prichard - Researches into the physical History of Mankind: Vol.3 (1841)
[I]Dionysius cites one [B]Xenodotus of Troezene, who wrote the history of the Umbrians. According to him the Sabines were originally an Umbrian people,

Umbrians are Bronze age Indo-Europeans akin to Kelts and the Sabines, the Oscans etc. were all Umbrians.


The Pelasgians

John Denison Baldwin - Pre-Historic Nations (1869)
Dionysius of Halicarnassus, justly described as one of the most diligent and accurate antiquaries of his time, states that the first Pelasgian immigrants who settled in Italy went from Arcadia "seventeen generations before the Trojan War." Their leader was Oenotrus; on this account they were called Oenotrians. Dionysius says: "Antiochus, an ancient historian, relates that the Oenotrians were the first [Pelasgic] settlers known to have come into Italy; that one of this race, called Italus, was a king; and that Italus was succeeded by Morges,-from whom the Oenotrians were called Morgetes and Italians." The Oenotrians were followed by other Pelasgian colonies from Thessaly, and probably from other districts of the wide region occupied by the Pelasgic race.

Dionysius of Halicarnasses - Roman Antiquities (29BC)
greatest part of them, passing through the midland country, took refuge among the inhabitants of Dodona, their relations (against whom, as a sacred people, none would make war) where they continued some time. But, finding themselves grow troublesome, and the country not being sufficient to rapport them all, they lest it in obedience to an oracle, which commanded them to sail to Italy, then, called Saturnia: And, having prepared a great many ships, they passed the Ionian sea, endeavouring to reach the nearest parts of Italy. But, the wind being in the south, and they unacquainted with the coast, they were carried off to sea, and landed at one of the mouths of the Po, called Spines.

The Pre-Indo-European Pelasgians came to Italy in 2 waves from Arcadia (Oenotrians) and from the East Aegean (Tyrsenoi)


The scenario in Italy

Cambrian Institute - The Cambrian Journal (1862)
from - Myrsilus Lesbius (Frag. De. Ital.);
"Xanthus writes that the Pelasgi invaded Thuscia, which was formerly called Umbria." "Tyrrhenus, arriving in the southern district of the Tiber, held it, and all the middle portion, from its sources to the spot where the Prisci Umbri inhabited; and he settled with them, and dwelt with them, and built the cities called the Maeonian and Tyrrhenian."

The result = Villanova culture I (1100-900 BC) - II (900 - 700 BC)


The other Umbrians

Dionysius - The Roman Antiquities (29 BC)
The Umbri inhabited a great many other parts of Italy, and were an exceeding great, and ancient people.

not all Umbrians were absorbed into the Pelasgian Tyrsenoi - there were many other Umbrians in Italy.
Other Umbrians remained independant until Roman times [Sabines or as Umbrians]
Others like the Insubres (IsOMBRI) absorbed Ligurians , others absorbed Pelasgian Oenotrians [Samnites]

the Greek [B]Polybius wrote about Italia during the Early Roman Republic:

Polybius - Histories (focus: [U]225 BC)
Next come the Etruscans and after them both slopes are inhabited by the Umbrians.....The first settlers at the eastern extremity,a near the source of the Po, were the Laevi and Lebecii, after them the Insubres, the largest tribe of all, and next these, on the banks of the river, the Cenomani......The cavalry of the Sabines and Etruscans, who had come to the temporary assistance of Rome..... The military contingent of the Umbrians and Sarsinates inhabiting the Apennines amounted to about twenty thousand, and with these were twenty thousand Veneti and Cenomani.....but the main body of the Insubres, Boii, and Taurisci, once the javelineers had withdrawn into the ranks and the Roman maniples attacked them, met the enemy and kept up a stubborn hand-to‑hand combat. For, though being almost cut to pieces, they held their ground, equal to their foes in courage, and inferior only, as a force and individually, in their arms. - Battle of Telamon -

Umbrians, Sabines and Insubres all still a multitude during the Early Roman Republic and beyond.-


Stele of Bormio [4th cen BC] - Bormio, North Italy - Lombardy (Raetic warriors)
http://imageshack.us/a/img35/7345/raeti1.png

Yetos
03-05-13, 19:34
@ Nobody

I don't know about 2 waves but yes I agree that Pelasgians went to Italy and named Etruscans.
a minor Asian population.

Ομβριοι Ubrians yes means rain people,

adamo
03-05-13, 20:30
Look at the text he contributed....then you come along to confirm "Ubrians is rain people's".....nice! Thanks for that yetos : )

zanipolo
03-05-13, 23:49
when polybius wrote his works in 225BC, the celts had already invaded north Italy. the cenomanni came from marseilles area in the south of france , they where neigbours of the volcae ( who eventually went to bavaria) and pushed the raetic people into the alps, they ( cenomanni ) eventually settled in verona and cremona areas. The taurisci went as far as vienna and there "related" namesakes the taurini settled in piedmont. The carni ( gascon celts) settled in friuli and western slovenia.

The insubres to this day as per italian historians represent only the milanese people and no other lombard people.

Why do I mention this , because the celtic invasion down lombardy sweeping into romagna to the adriatic happened around 500BC , the umbrians where already isolated further south and played no part in northern Italy ( if they ever did ). Unless you are leading to some conclusion which I cannot see, then please advise what is the point

adamo
04-05-13, 00:37
Didn't the cenomani come from French cenomani of north-western France near Brittany? Carnutes are also from north-central France near the same area more or less, no? Insubres has a name of a regional "canton" of the Aeudui tribe.

Nobody1
04-05-13, 07:05
when polybius wrote his works in 225BC, the celts had already invaded north Italy

No Kidding,


The insubres to this day as per italian historians represent only the milanese people and no other lombard people.

really,

Giovanni Battista Giani - Battaglia del Ticino tra Annibale e Scipione (1824)
Lo stesso Livio poi col dire che l'esercito Romano passando il Ticino, traductus est in agrum Insubrium,....popoli dall'una all'altra sponda; essendo notissimo che gi' Insubri abitavano tra l' Adda ed il Ticino, inoltrati anche al di là di questo fiume
TRANSLATION -
The same Livio (Livy) then by saying that the Roman army crossing the Ticino, leading the field in the agrum Insubrium,....peoples from one to the other shore; being well-known that the Insubres inhabited between the 'Adda and Ticino, also forwarded beyond this river

Tabula Peutingeriana - ~500AD - Roman map

http://imageshack.us/a/img5/9600/insubres1.png

Polybius - Histories (focus: 225 BC)
The first settlers at the eastern extremity,a near the source of the Po, were the Laevi and Lebecii, after them the Insubres, the largest tribe of all, and next these, on the banks of the river, the Cenomani

John T. Koch - The Celts: History, Life, and Culture (2012)
The area occupied by the Golasecca culture is roughly consistent with the Celtic peoples of the Insubres, Oromobii, and Lepontii mentioned in classical literature.

Thats were History and Archaeology go hand in hand;


Insubres and the Golasecca-culture area
http://imageshack.us/a/img198/6448/golasecca1.png


So its safe to say that the Insubres dwelt between Tessin and Adda (a good part of Lombardy) and were def. one of the largest tribes.


The Insubres

Matthias Koch - Die Alpen-Etrusker (1853)
Auffallend bleibt jedoch immer, dass in dem Insubrer-Namen der Umbrer-Name steckt. Polybius, der Erste, welcher die Insubrer nennt, schreibt oi'Iσομβροι , und 'Oμροι und 'Oμßρixoi heissen bei den Griechen die Umbrer,
TRANSLATION -
Strikingly, however, always remains that the Umbrians name is in the Insubres name. Polybius, the first who called the Insubres, writes oi'Iσομβροι, and 'Oμροι and 'Oμßρixoi called by the Greeks the Umbrians,

Edward Gibbon - Miscellaneous Vol.5 (1814)
I reckoned the Insubres among the Gauls, on the authority of all the ancients;....Polybius indeed calls them Isombri, which in Celtic signifies the Lower Ombri. But Polybius acknowledges them for Gauls;

Sir William Smith - Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography (1861)
But Livy has not explained the origin of the Insubres; and if the Insubres were in North Italy before this invasion, and were a Celtic people, they must have come in a former immigration; and if Is-umbri is the genuine form of the word, we may assume that they were Umbri, who had long been settled in the basin of the Po.

Christian Keferstein - Ansichten über die keltischen Alterthümer Vol.2 (1849)
[I]Die Olombri (von ol im Keltischen hoch) bewohnten, die Gebirge, die Isombri oder (Insubres (von is im Keltischen niedrig) die Ebenen und hatten Mailand zum Mittelpunkt, die Vilombri (von bei das Ufer) die Ufergegenden, das Umbria am adriatischen Meere, im heutigen Kirchenstaate, war ein sehr blähendes Land, mit 358 Städten, das etwa 4 Jahrhunderte vor Roms Erbauung sehr mächtig war; die Umbrer verbreiteten sich sehr weit, auf der Ostseite Italiens durch einen Theil von Etrurien und bis über die Tiber; zu ihnen gehörten die Sabini (nach Dionys. von Halicarnass), auch die Aborigines in Latinm, die auch (nach Ammian. Marcell. I. 15. 9.) als Kelten oder Galater bezeichnet werden.
TRANSLATION -
The Olombri inhabited (ol in Celtic high), the mountains, the Isombri or (Insubres (is the Celtic low), the plains and had Mailand (Mediolanum) as their center, the Vilombri (of at the shore) the waterfronts, the Umbria on the Adriatic sea in today's Church state, was a very packed country, with 358 cities, which was about 4 centuries before Rome edification very powerful, and the Umbrians spread very far, on the east side of Italy by a part of Etruria and beyond the Tiber; of them were the Sabini (by Dionysius. Halicarnass), the Aborigines in Latium, which are also known (by Ammianus. Marcell. I. 15 9) as Celts or Galatians.


The Insubres are just low-land Umbrians.

all of this is of course supported by:

Dionysius - The Roman Antiquities (29 BC)
[I]The Umbri inhabited a great many other parts of Italy, and were an exceeding great, and ancient people.

Pliny - Natural History (79 AD)
The race of the Umbri is considered the oldest in Italy. —(C. Plin. lib. ii. Nat. Hist. c. 14.)

James Cowles Prichard - Researches into the physical History of Mankind: Vol.3 (1841)
Dionysius cites one Xenodotus of Troezene, who wrote the history of the Umbrians. According to him the Sabines were originally an Umbrian people,

also important to note:

Henry Malden - History of Rome (1830)
It is possible however that the Symbri [sYMBRI], whom Strabo mentions as a small community above the Veneti, may have been a tribe detached from the Umbrians, or left behind in the course of national migration.


Anymore Questions!

http://imageshack.us/a/img547/5383/91866038.png

zanipolo
04-05-13, 09:53
No Kidding,



really,

Giovanni Battista Giani - Battaglia del Ticino tra Annibale e Scipione (1824)
Lo stesso Livio poi col dire che l'esercito Romano passando il Ticino, traductus est in agrum Insubrium,....popoli dall'una all'altra sponda; essendo notissimo che gi' Insubri abitavano tra l' Adda ed il Ticino, inoltrati anche al di là di questo fiume
TRANSLATION -
The same Livio (Livy) then by saying that the Roman army crossing the Ticino, leading the field in the agrum Insubrium,....peoples from one to the other shore; being well-known that the Insubres inhabited between the 'Adda and Ticino, also forwarded beyond this river

Tabula Peutingeriana - ~500AD - Roman map

http://imageshack.us/a/img5/9600/insubres1.png

Polybius - Histories (focus: 225 BC)
The first settlers at the eastern extremity,a near the source of the Po, were the Laevi and Lebecii, after them the Insubres, the largest tribe of all, and next these, on the banks of the river, the Cenomani

John T. Koch - The Celts: History, Life, and Culture (2012)
The area occupied by the Golasecca culture is roughly consistent with the Celtic peoples of the Insubres, Oromobii, and Lepontii mentioned in classical literature.

Thats were History and Archaeology go hand in hand;


Insubres and the Golasecca-culture area
http://imageshack.us/a/img198/6448/golasecca1.png


So its safe to say that the Insubres dwelt between Tessin and Adda (a good part of Lombardy) and were def. one of the largest tribes.


The Insubres

Matthias Koch - Die Alpen-Etrusker (1853)
Auffallend bleibt jedoch immer, dass in dem Insubrer-Namen der Umbrer-Name steckt. Polybius, der Erste, welcher die Insubrer nennt, schreibt oi'Iσομβροι , und 'Oμροι und 'Oμßρixoi heissen bei den Griechen die Umbrer,
TRANSLATION -
Strikingly, however, always remains that the Umbrians name is in the Insubres name. Polybius, the first who called the Insubres, writes oi'Iσομβροι, and 'Oμροι and 'Oμßρixoi called by the Greeks the Umbrians,

Edward Gibbon - Miscellaneous Vol.5 (1814)
I reckoned the Insubres among the Gauls, on the authority of all the ancients;....Polybius indeed calls them Isombri, which in Celtic signifies the Lower Ombri. But Polybius acknowledges them for Gauls;

Sir William Smith - Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography (1861)
But Livy has not explained the origin of the Insubres; and if the Insubres were in North Italy before this invasion, and were a Celtic people, they must have come in a former immigration; and if Is-umbri is the genuine form of the word, we may assume that they were Umbri, who had long been settled in the basin of the Po.

Christian Keferstein - Ansichten über die keltischen Alterthümer Vol.2 (1849)
[I]Die Olombri (von ol im Keltischen hoch) bewohnten, die Gebirge, die Isombri oder (Insubres (von is im Keltischen niedrig) die Ebenen und hatten Mailand zum Mittelpunkt, die Vilombri (von bei das Ufer) die Ufergegenden, das Umbria am adriatischen Meere, im heutigen Kirchenstaate, war ein sehr blähendes Land, mit 358 Städten, das etwa 4 Jahrhunderte vor Roms Erbauung sehr mächtig war; die Umbrer verbreiteten sich sehr weit, auf der Ostseite Italiens durch einen Theil von Etrurien und bis über die Tiber; zu ihnen gehörten die Sabini (nach Dionys. von Halicarnass), auch die Aborigines in Latinm, die auch (nach Ammian. Marcell. I. 15. 9.) als Kelten oder Galater bezeichnet werden.
TRANSLATION -
The Olombri inhabited (ol in Celtic high), the mountains, the Isombri or (Insubres (is the Celtic low), the plains and had Mailand (Mediolanum) as their center, the Vilombri (of at the shore) the waterfronts, the Umbria on the Adriatic sea in today's Church state, was a very packed country, with 358 cities, which was about 4 centuries before Rome edification very powerful, and the Umbrians spread very far, on the east side of Italy by a part of Etruria and beyond the Tiber; of them were the Sabini (by Dionysius. Halicarnass), the Aborigines in Latium, which are also known (by Ammianus. Marcell. I. 15 9) as Celts or Galatians.


The Insubres are just low-land Umbrians.

all of this is of course supported by:

Dionysius - The Roman Antiquities (29 BC)
[I]The Umbri inhabited a great many other parts of Italy, and were an exceeding great, and ancient people.

Pliny - Natural History (79 AD)
The race of the Umbri is considered the oldest in Italy. —(C. Plin. lib. ii. Nat. Hist. c. 14.)

James Cowles Prichard - Researches into the physical History of Mankind: Vol.3 (1841)
Dionysius cites one Xenodotus of Troezene, who wrote the history of the Umbrians. According to him the Sabines were originally an Umbrian people,

also important to note:

Henry Malden - History of Rome (1830)
It is possible however that the Symbri [sYMBRI], whom Strabo mentions as a small community above the Veneti, may have been a tribe detached from the Umbrians, or left behind in the course of national migration.


Anymore Questions!

http://imageshack.us/a/img547/5383/91866038.png


ok, bigger than what I thought, they where part swiss , part Piemont and zero east lombard .......maybe thats the reason the venetian republic ruled east lombardy for over 370 years without issue


anyway, i attached a map and dialects of the insubres
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Distribuzione_Insubre.GIF

julia90
04-05-13, 11:34
Italics, central european looking; not med looking.. the med people were the first inhabitant of italy before the inoruropean italics and celts came from central europe

Nobody1
04-05-13, 12:26
Italics, central european looking; not med looking.. the med people were the first inhabitant of italy before the inoruropean italics and celts came from central europe

Strictly concerning Anthropology of the Caucasoid sub-races [Nordic - Alpine - Mediterranean - Armenoid]

Not just the Mediterranid [Caucasoid] sub-race (Dolichocephalic) inhabited Pre-Indo-European Italy,
also the Alpinoid [Caucasoid] sub-race (Brachycephalic)

Smithsonian Institution - Report of the Board of Regents: Vol.45 (1891)
In another Neolithic cave, called the Caverna della Matta [north Italy], an Iberian skull was found with an index of 68, and a Ligurian skull with an index of 84. No anthropologist would admit that these skulls could have belonged to men of the same race.


This Alpinoid (Brachycephalic) is associated with the Pre-Indo-European Ligurians
[akin to the non-Indo-European Lapps]

Roberto Bosi - The Lapps (1977)
Then [Rudolf Karl] Virchow. examining a number of Lappish skulls at Helsinki, Lund and Copenhagen, in conjunction with ancient Ligurian skulls, discovered many mutual features suggesting an identical strain.

Lucan - Pharsalia (65 AD)
Ligurian tribes, now shorn, in ancient days First of the long-haired nations , on whose necks Once flowed the auburn [reddish-brown] locks in pride supreme;


Needless to say that the Indo-European Umbrians mixed with these Pre-Indo-European Ligurians
as is attested by Archaeological/Anthropological studies and Historical testimony:

Anthropological Society of London - Anthropological review: Vol.V (1867)
"when I look upon the delineations of [B]the crania, the photographs and the figures given by M. Nicolucci himself, it appears to me that the difference between Ligurians and Umbrians, is about equal to the differences between Allemands and Germans.

Plutarch - Lives (120 AD)
the [Ambrones] often called out their name Ambrones, either to encourage one another or to terrify the Romans by this announcement. The Ligurians, who were the first of the Italic people to go down to battle with them, hearing their shouts, and understanding what they said, responded by calling out their old national name, which was the same, for the Ligurians also call themselves Ambrones when they refer to their origin.

---

also north of the alps such a mix happened between the Indo-European Kelts and a Pre-Indo-European Brachycephalic Alpinoid people, as attested in the diff. between the Hallstatt and Swiss-lake dwellers.

Sir William Ridgeway - The early age of Greece Vol.1 (1901)
It has been pointed out by Dr Verneau "that there is a strong likeness between the skulls from the tumuli of Glasinatz and those found in the graves of Hallstatt, the majority being in both cases dolichocephalic, a craniological phenomenon which is reversed in the case of the Swiss Lake-dwellers.

George Bradshaw - Bradshaw's illustrated hand-book to Switzerland and the Tyrol (1899)
Swiss Lake-dwellings - In his careful investigations of pile dwellings, Dr. Studer met with two extreme types of skulls, the brachycephalic and the dolikoccphalic; the former, at Schaffis and Lüschery (Lake of Bienne), belonging to the pure Stone period, and the latter, at Vinolz and Sutz, to the Bronze period. The facts point to an invasion by the Bronze men, involving a complete transformation of the group of domestic animals; the horse appears for the first time, and new races of sheep and dogs replace the older forms of the Stone period. The occurrence of mesocephalic, and even considerably shortened skulls, in the Bronze period, shows that there was no extinction of the brachycephalic race, but that the two races mixed.

Nobody1
04-05-13, 12:59
ok, bigger than what I thought, they where part swiss

swiss?
Thats Historical Lombardy [Tessin - Misox - Bergell - Puschlav], Swiss couldnt conquer it (Battle of Crevola) so they made a treaty with the French and annexed it.

Historical Lombardy
http://imageshack.us/a/img571/6981/lombardy.png


maybe thats the reason the venetian republic ruled east lombardy for over 370 years without issue

Issues with whom?
Lombardy was never a state just an historical region; fiefdom of the Holy Roman Empire.
The medieval Lombard League (Battles: Legnano, Cortenuova, Parma, Fossalta) is the closest the Lombards ever came to unity; but even there half the Lombard comunes were Imperial Loyal.

Lombard League
Cremona - Brixia - Bergamum - Mediolanum - Porta Romana relief 1171, Milan
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4052/4686854787_4838166094_z.jpg


anyway, i attached a map and dialects of the insubres

Good map, goes to show how the Iron-age is still manifested in many regions.

adamo
04-05-13, 14:16
I love one of the maps you posted where we see senones in Marche and lingones in Emilia-Romagna area and we all know senones+ lingones of north-eastern France near the Rhine/Moselle area and Belgian frontier. Personally, I doubt ligurians where actually Lapp though as there is no male N1c hg to support this in Italy, to me they where a R1b substratum.

Nobody1
04-05-13, 14:32
I love one of the maps you posted where we see senones in Marche and lingones in Emilia-Romagna area and we all know senones+ lingones of north-eastern France near the Rhine/Moselle area and Belgian frontier. Personally, I doubt ligurians where actually Lapp though as there is no male N1c hg to support this in Italy, to me they where a R1b substratum.

Yup,
thats the Gallic (LaTene) Iron-age migration of ~400 BC; Senones - Cenomani - Boii - Lingoni
All from Gaul, except the Boii, they came from Bohemia via the eastern Alps.

For me personally the Boii are the most interesting and the once with the greatest legacy.

perfect example of a Boii - Montefortino type helmet; from Monterenzio Vecchio, Bologna - North Italy
http://imageshack.us/a/img42/4192/boii.png

adamo
04-05-13, 17:06
Don't forget bellovesus's bituriges cubii, aedui, arverni, ambarri and aulerci also!

adamo
04-05-13, 17:10
Many tribes basically, all across Gaul! Northeast France: lingones, senones , northwest france: aulerci, cenomani, carnutes, possibly long time-before veneti of Brittany. central france: bituriges cubii, aedui, southeast/central France: arverni, ambarri....they said the first in veneto was a Gaulish substratum, ancient veneti perhaps? But there's another theory saying Eneti paphlagonian Turks gave their name to veneto, I personally support the first hypothesis; it would be very realistic considering all the exact same Gaul tribes migration to Italy, why not veneti of northwestern Gaul to veneto and then more recently the carni ( carnutes?)

MOESAN
04-05-13, 18:25
Many tribes basically, all across Gaul! Northeast France: lingones, senones , northwest france: aulerci, cenomani, carnutes, possibly long time-before veneti of Brittany. central france: bituriges cubii, aedui, southeast/central France: arverni, ambarri....they said the first in veneto was a Gaulish substratum, ancient veneti perhaps? But there's another theory saying Eneti paphlagonian Turks gave their name to veneto, I personally support the first hypothesis; it would be very realistic considering all the exact same Gaul tribes migration to Italy, why not veneti of northwestern Gaul to veneto and then more recently the carni ( carnutes?)

Sorry Adamo, I seem answering you in this post but in fact I 'm just doing some more general remarks:
in this thread I saw a huge quantity of old, TOO old surveys about history and linguistic - (even if I know old works keep always some worth in some aspect:) they would be balanced by more fresh studies -
and antrhopological studies too have to be refreshed - brachy- & dolichocephally by themselves have few value, they are only part of numerous traits we have to examine; it 's not saying they have none as say someones -
for I red Osco-Umbrians came lately enough (Iron Age) into N-E Italy first before going down in the "high boot" - and as I said (and other than me) in other thread, 'pelasgian' is a very IMPRECISE term concerning ethny and language, helas! I think Latines (and Sabines considered by linguists as cousins to them) came before Osco-Umbrians, even if from a same primitive old human stock) - maybe the 'terramare' ab- 1500 BC?(there were 'terramare' in Hungary, according to some scholars) of the Pô valley were the first Latines colonizing more ancient mix of Ligurians and predecessors (history in often a succession of sediments layers (strata))

I have no detailed opinion - just let's be carefull with some old studies

Nobody1
06-06-13, 14:29
@ binx

Yes,

Euganei and Stoni were Ligurians,
Eneti were Indo-Europeans (pos. akin to Illyrians)

But the Raeti and there connections to the Etruscans are more complex;

-The Etruscans were Pelasgians (Tyrsenoi) who mixed with parts of the Indo-European Umbrians;

Dionysius of Halicarnassus -
And the same people, from the name of the country, out of which they had been driven, and, also, in memory of their ancient extraction, were called by the rest of the world, both Tyrrhenians and Pelasgi; which I have mentioned for this reason that, when the poets, and historians call them Tyrrhenians and Pelasgi, none may wonder how the same people would have both these names. For Thucydides speaks of them as living in that part of Thracia called Acte, and of the cities there as inhabited by men, who spoke two languages: He, then, makes mention of the Pelasgian nation in the following manner: "There are some Chalcidians, but the greatest part are Pelasgi, the same nation with the Tyrrhenians, ct who, once, inhabited Lemnos, and Athens." And Sophocles makes the chorus, in his drama of Inachus, speak the following anapaestic verses, "Father Inachus, son of the fountains of old Ocean, who art held in great veneration in the streets of Argos, and the hills of Juno, and among the Tyrrhene Pelasgi." The name of Tyrrhenia was then known throughout Greece.
-
Afterwards, some of the Pelasgi, who inhabited Thessaly, as it is, now, called, being obliged to leave their country, settled among the Aborigines; and these, with joint forces, made war upon the Siceli.
-----

Aborigines were identified by Strabo as the Umbrians;



John Denison Baldwin - Pre-Historic Nations (1869)
Dionysius of Halicarnassus, justly described as one of the most diligent and accurate antiquaries of his time, states that the first Pelasgian immigrants who settled in Italy went from Arcadia "seventeen generations before the Trojan War." Their leader was Oenotrus; on this account they were called Oenotrians. Dionysius says: "Antiochus, an ancient historian, relates that the Oenotrians were the first [Pelasgic] settlers known to have come into Italy; that one of this race, called Italus, was a king; and that Italus was succeeded by Morges,-from whom the Oenotrians were called Morgetes and Italians." The Oenotrians were followed by other Pelasgian colonies from Thessaly, and probably from other districts of the wide region occupied by the Pelasgic race.

These other Pelasgians from Thessaly are as Dionysius informs us the Tyrsenoi - Thyrreneans, who sailed up the Adriatic into the mouth of the Po. Herodotus places the Tyrsenoi in Lydia;

The Pelasgi Oenotrians [from Arcadia (first wave)] and
the Pelasgi Tyrsenoi [from Lydia/Thessaly (second wave)] were the 2 waves of Pelasgians from the East Mediterranean starting 17 gens. before the Trojan War;

The connection with the Raeti is still a mystery;


the voyage and arrival of the Pelasgian Tyrsenoi/Thyrrenoi

Dionysius of Halicarnasses -
greatest part of them, passing through the midland country, took refuge among the inhabitants of Dodona, their relations (against whom, as a sacred people, none would make war) where they continued some time. But, finding themselves grow troublesome, and the country not being sufficient to rapport them all, they lest it in obedience to an oracle, which commanded them to sail to Italy, then, called Saturnia: And, having prepared a great many ships, they passed the Ionian sea, endeavouring to reach the nearest parts of Italy. But, the wind being in the south, and they unacquainted with the coast, they were carried off to sea, and landed at one of the mouths of the Po, called Spines.

binx
06-06-13, 15:07
Who where the Sabines, Samnites, oscans, Umbrians, brutii, Volscians, Marsi? I heard that oscans where related people's such as pelasgian oenotrians of southern Hesperia, where the Samnites Greeks, middle eastern or italics? Thread to discuss the origins of all these italian groups!: )

Sabines, Samnites, Oscans, Umbrians, Brutii, Volscians, Marsi and Latins... are all Italic people of indoeuropean origins.

Probably also the Sicels (Italian and Latin: Siculi) were an indoeuropean people, linked with the Italics.

binx
06-06-13, 16:15
@ binx

Yes,

Euganei and Stoni were Ligurians,
Eneti were Indo-Europeans (pos. akin to Illyrians)

But the Raeti and there connections to the Etruscans are more complex;

-The Etruscans were Pelasgians (Tyrsenoi) who mixed with parts of the Indo-European Umbrians;



I completely agree with you.

And I agree, the connection between Raeti and Etruscans are more complex. But if there is a connection, and probably there's, this connection brings us to the Northern Caucasus.

Yetos
06-06-13, 19:34
@ binx

Yes,

Euganei and Stoni were Ligurians,
Eneti were Indo-Europeans (pos. akin to Illyrians)

But the Raeti and there connections to the Etruscans are more complex;

-The Etruscans were Pelasgians (Tyrsenoi) who mixed with parts of the Indo-European Umbrians;

Dionysius of Halicarnassus -
And the same people, from the name of the country, out of which they had been driven, and, also, in memory of their ancient extraction, were called by the rest of the world, both Tyrrhenians and Pelasgi; which I have mentioned for this reason that, when the poets, and historians call them Tyrrhenians and Pelasgi, none may wonder how the same people would have both these names. For Thucydides speaks of them as living in that part of Thracia called Acte, and of the cities there as inhabited by men, who spoke two languages: He, then, makes mention of the Pelasgian nation in the following manner: "There are some Chalcidians, but the greatest part are Pelasgi, the same nation with the Tyrrhenians, ct who, once, inhabited Lemnos, and Athens." And Sophocles makes the chorus, in his drama of Inachus, speak the following anapaestic verses, "Father Inachus, son of the fountains of old Ocean, who art held in great veneration in the streets of Argos, and the hills of Juno, and among the Tyrrhene Pelasgi." The name of Tyrrhenia was then known throughout Greece.
-
Afterwards, some of the Pelasgi, who inhabited Thessaly, as it is, now, called, being obliged to leave their country, settled among the Aborigines; and these, with joint forces, made war upon the Siceli.
-----

Aborigines were identified by Strabo as the Umbrians;



John Denison Baldwin - Pre-Historic Nations (1869)
Dionysius of Halicarnassus, justly described as one of the most diligent and accurate antiquaries of his time, states that the first Pelasgian immigrants who settled in Italy went from Arcadia "seventeen generations before the Trojan War." Their leader was Oenotrus; on this account they were called Oenotrians. Dionysius says: "Antiochus, an ancient historian, relates that the Oenotrians were the first [Pelasgic] settlers known to have come into Italy; that one of this race, called Italus, was a king; and that Italus was succeeded by Morges,-from whom the Oenotrians were called Morgetes and Italians." The Oenotrians were followed by other Pelasgian colonies from Thessaly, and probably from other districts of the wide region occupied by the Pelasgic race.

These other Pelasgians from Thessaly are as Dionysius informs us the Tyrsenoi - Thyrreneans, who sailed up the Adriatic into the mouth of the Po. Herodotus places the Tyrsenoi in Lydia;

The Pelasgi Oenotrians [from Arcadia (first wave)] and
the Pelasgi Tyrsenoi [from Lydia/Thessaly (second wave)] were the 2 waves of Pelasgians from the East Mediterranean starting 17 gens. before the Trojan War;

The connection with the Raeti is still a mystery;


the voyage and arrival of the Pelasgian Tyrsenoi/Thyrrenoi

Dionysius of Halicarnasses -
greatest part of them, passing through the midland country, took refuge among the inhabitants of Dodona, their relations (against whom, as a sacred people, none would make war) where they continued some time. But, finding themselves grow troublesome, and the country not being sufficient to rapport them all, they lest it in obedience to an oracle, which commanded them to sail to Italy, then, called Saturnia: And, having prepared a great many ships, they passed the Ionian sea, endeavouring to reach the nearest parts of Italy. But, the wind being in the south, and they unacquainted with the coast, they were carried off to sea, and landed at one of the mouths of the Po, called Spines.

I disagree in the time of second wave, or maybe there was also a 3rd,
the last wave was done at 900-500 BC after Troyan war.
significant is the dates of Thyrrenians' stele in Aegan sea.
and Thoukidides mention about Thyrrenians.

Nobody1
07-06-13, 15:06
I disagree in the time of second wave, or maybe there was also a 3rd, the last wave was done at 900-500 BC after Troyan war. significant is the dates of Thyrrenians' stele in Aegan sea. and Thoukidides mention about Thyrrenians.

There is no specific date for the second wave;

The first wave of Pelasgians from Arcadia [Oenotrians] is recorded as 17 generations before the Trojan war; - Dionysius
The second wave is only mentioned in connection with a famine - Herodotus ; and upon arrival in Saturnia (italy) with the expulsion of the Siculi from the Apennines - Strabo;

However Thucydides informs us that the arrival of the Siculi in Sicily was many years after the Trojan war; so the second wave [Tyrsenoi / Tyrrenean] must have occurred after the Trojan war;

zanipolo
07-06-13, 21:44
@ binx

Yes,

Euganei and Stoni were Ligurians,
Eneti were Indo-Europeans (pos. akin to Illyrians)

But the Raeti and there connections to the Etruscans are more complex;

-The Etruscans were Pelasgians (Tyrsenoi) who mixed with parts of the Indo-European Umbrians;

Dionysius of Halicarnassus -
And the same people, from the name of the country, out of which they had been driven, and, also, in memory of their ancient extraction, were called by the rest of the world, both Tyrrhenians and Pelasgi; which I have mentioned for this reason that, when the poets, and historians call them Tyrrhenians and Pelasgi, none may wonder how the same people would have both these names. For Thucydides speaks of them as living in that part of Thracia called Acte, and of the cities there as inhabited by men, who spoke two languages: He, then, makes mention of the Pelasgian nation in the following manner: "There are some Chalcidians, but the greatest part are Pelasgi, the same nation with the Tyrrhenians, ct who, once, inhabited Lemnos, and Athens." And Sophocles makes the chorus, in his drama of Inachus, speak the following anapaestic verses, "Father Inachus, son of the fountains of old Ocean, who art held in great veneration in the streets of Argos, and the hills of Juno, and among the Tyrrhene Pelasgi." The name of Tyrrhenia was then known throughout Greece.
-
Afterwards, some of the Pelasgi, who inhabited Thessaly, as it is, now, called, being obliged to leave their country, settled among the Aborigines; and these, with joint forces, made war upon the Siceli.
-----

Aborigines were identified by Strabo as the Umbrians;



John Denison Baldwin - Pre-Historic Nations (1869)
Dionysius of Halicarnassus, justly described as one of the most diligent and accurate antiquaries of his time, states that the first Pelasgian immigrants who settled in Italy went from Arcadia "seventeen generations before the Trojan War." Their leader was Oenotrus; on this account they were called Oenotrians. Dionysius says: "Antiochus, an ancient historian, relates that the Oenotrians were the first [Pelasgic] settlers known to have come into Italy; that one of this race, called Italus, was a king; and that Italus was succeeded by Morges,-from whom the Oenotrians were called Morgetes and Italians." The Oenotrians were followed by other Pelasgian colonies from Thessaly, and probably from other districts of the wide region occupied by the Pelasgic race.

These other Pelasgians from Thessaly are as Dionysius informs us the Tyrsenoi - Thyrreneans, who sailed up the Adriatic into the mouth of the Po. Herodotus places the Tyrsenoi in Lydia;

The Pelasgi Oenotrians [from Arcadia (first wave)] and
the Pelasgi Tyrsenoi [from Lydia/Thessaly (second wave)] were the 2 waves of Pelasgians from the East Mediterranean starting 17 gens. before the Trojan War;

The connection with the Raeti is still a mystery;


the voyage and arrival of the Pelasgian Tyrsenoi/Thyrrenoi

Dionysius of Halicarnasses -
greatest part of them, passing through the midland country, took refuge among the inhabitants of Dodona, their relations (against whom, as a sacred people, none would make war) where they continued some time. But, finding themselves grow troublesome, and the country not being sufficient to rapport them all, they lest it in obedience to an oracle, which commanded them to sail to Italy, then, called Saturnia: And, having prepared a great many ships, they passed the Ionian sea, endeavouring to reach the nearest parts of Italy. But, the wind being in the south, and they unacquainted with the coast, they were carried off to sea, and landed at one of the mouths of the Po, called Spines.


2 other euganei tribes you did not mention
among the major tribes Euganeans the Triumplini of Valtrompia (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Valtrompia&action=edit&redlink=1) and the Camunni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camunni) of Val Camonica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val_Camonica).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euganei#cite_note-2)

It is impossible that the etruscans and raeti are related, the raeti arrived in europe more than 2000 years before the etruscans. There only association was due to raeti using etrucan as a trade language, but the venetics did that too in the "TRADE" junction between brescia and verona. Only one tablet of etruscan was found north of brescia and that was at bolzano

someone stated the etruscans are also north caucasus people like the raeti .........i am unsure, IF they are they have little G2 which the Raeti have a lot of

zanipolo
07-06-13, 21:50
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/9575/liguri.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/163/liguri.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Middle bronze-age period....blue are ligurians as per italian historical papers

binx
07-06-13, 23:09
someone stated the etruscans are also north caucasus people like the raeti .........i am unsure, IF they are they have little G2 which the Raeti have a lot of


Someone (some of the most well-known Russian historical linguists) stated that Etruscans language is North-Caucasian, to be precise. You can easily find all the references You need about that.

Etruscans had a very complex story, and They were not G2 only.


From Università Ca' Foscari Venezia

Il retico

Le iscrizioni 'retiche' sono così definite dal nome di una popolazione anticamente stanziata nell'area alpina, i Reti, e provengono dall'area prealpina ed alpina orientale, in particolare dalle attuali province di Verona e Vicenza, dal Trentino-Alto Adige, dal Tirolo e dalla Val Engadina. Sono circa duecento iscrizioni, in un alfabeto derivato da quello etrusco, con pochi adattamenti. Si tratta di testi, spesso brevi e frammentari, di difficile inquadramento anche per i problemi di interpretazione finora posti dalla lingua. Il retico infatti è una lingua non indeuropea, per cui gli studi più recenti hanno accertato una consistente affinità con l'etrusco. Tra le iscrizioni si riconoscono nuclei consistenti a carattere votivo; i principali luoghi di ritrovamento sono Magrè (Vicenza), Sanzeno (Bolzano) e la Valpolicella (Verona).


http://www.unive.it/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=49412


(http://www.unive.it/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=49412)

« His contermini Raeti et Vindolici, omnes in multas civitates divisi. Raetos Tuscorum prolem arbitrantur a Gallis pulsos duce Raeto. »





(Plinius Maior, Naturalis historia, III, 133)



(http://www.unive.it/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=49412)

zanipolo
08-06-13, 01:05
(http://www.unive.it/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=49412)

« His contermini Raeti et Vindolici, omnes in multas civitates divisi. Raetos Tuscorum prolem arbitrantur a Gallis pulsos duce Raeto. »





(Plinius Maior, Naturalis historia, III, 133)



(http://www.unive.it/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=49412)


with my rusty latin .............someone should correct me

concerning raeti and vendelici, these people lived divided in their own ethnicity/culture/cities, the leader/chief raetos was of gallic people from the raeti tribe

MOESAN
08-06-13, 11:49
I love one of the maps you posted where we see senones in Marche and lingones in Emilia-Romagna area and we all know senones+ lingones of north-eastern France near the Rhine/Moselle area and Belgian frontier. Personally, I doubt ligurians where actually Lapp though as there is no male N1c hg to support this in Italy, to me they where a R1b substratum.

I agree with you for the most: Ligurians are not at all for I believe, descendants of Lapps -
this concept 'alpins' = 'lapps' is old -
was it completely stupid? maybe not - 'alpin' phenotype seem having cristallized in western Alps a last mesolithic times upon a cro-magnid background and some scholars think Lapps (Saami) have roughly a half of their ancestors that came there from western Europe fater the LGM (based principally upon mt DNA it is true) - the 'asiatic' ('samoyed'???) part of ancestry among Saami came later, it is supposed - phenotypically, the mongolid part was very very scarce among Saami - they were rather a mix of proto-alpins with some east-cro-magnons of remote same origins, phoetallized in bad environment life, I think -
a proto-basque language could have been their one according to some survey about the substrata of Saami language - the finnic language came lately send by a group that became apparently the 'male' dominant group, where Y-N was heavy and some partly mongolid features were present -

binx
08-06-13, 12:21
with my rusty latin .............someone should correct me

concerning raeti and vendelici, these people lived divided in their own ethnicity/culture/cities, the leader/chief raetos was of gallic people from the raeti tribe

This is the right translation

With them (the Norici=Celts also called Taurisci) confine Raeti and Vindelici, all divided into many communities. It is believed that the Raeti, descendants of the Etruscans, led by Reto, were driven out by the Gauls.

This is the whole paragraph. If You need, I can help You translating it.

Incolae Alpium multi populi, sed inlustres a Pola ad Tergestis regionem Fecusses, Subocrini, Catali, Menoncaleni iuxtaque Carnos quondam Taurisci appellati, nunc Norici. his contermini Raeti et Vindolici, omnes in multas civitates divisi. Raetos Tuscorum prolem arbitrantur a Gallis pulsos duce Raeto. verso deinde in Italiam pectore Alpium Latini iuris Euganeae gentes, quarum oppida XXXIIII enumerat Cato.

2) This is from Titus Livius, Historiae R., V, 33

Tuscorum ante Romanum imperium late terra marique opes patuere. Mari supero inferoque quibus Italia insulae modo cingitur, quantum potuerint nomina sunt argumento, quod alterum Tuscum communi uocabulo gentis, alterum Hadriaticum [mare] ab Hatria, Tuscorum colonia, uocauere Italicae gentes, Graeci eadem Tyrrhenum atque Adriaticum uocant. Ei in utrumque mare uergentes incoluere urbibus duodenis terras, prius cis Appenninum ad inferum mare, postea trans Appenninum totidem, quot capita originis erant, coloniis missis, quae trans Padum omnia loca,—excepto Venetorum angulo qui sinum circumcolunt maris,—usque ad Alpes tenuere. Alpinis quoque ea gentibus haud dubie origo est, maxime Raetis, quos loca ipsa efferarunt ne quid ex antiquo praeter sonum linguae nec eum incorruptum retinerent.

Before the Roman empire the influence of the Etruscans was much more extended by land and by sea; how very powerful they were in the upper and lower seas, by which Italy is encompassed like an island, the names of these seas is a proof; the one of which the Italian nations have called the Etruscan sea, by the name of the people; the other, the Hadriatic, from Hadria, was a an Etruscans' colony. The Greeks call these seas the Tyrrhenian and Hadriatic. This people inhabited the country extending to both seas in twelve cities, colonies equal in number to the mother cities having been sent, first on this side the Apennines towards the lower sea, afterwards to the other side of the Apennines; who obtained possession of all the district beyond the Po, even as far as the Alps - except the corner of the Veneti, who dwell round the extreme point of the Hadriatic sea. The Alpine nations have also this Etruscan origin, more especially the Raetians; whom their very situation has rendered savage, so as to retain nothing of their original, except the accent of their language, and not even that without a corruption.


3) This is from Marcus Junianus Justinus, Historiarum Philippicarum T. Pompeii Trogi, XX, V

His autem Gallis causa in Italiam veniendi sedesque novas quaerendi intestina discordia et adsiduae domi dissensiones fuere, quarum taedio cum in Italiam venissent, sedibus Tuscos expulerunt et Mediolanum, Comum, Brixiam, Veronam, Bergomum, Tridentum, Vincentiam condiderunt. Tusci quoque duce Raeto avitis sedibus amissis Alpes occupavere et ex nomine ducis gentem Raetorum condiderunt.

The Etruscans also when They were driven out from their old settlements, betook themselves, under a leader (dux) named Rhaetus towards the Alps, where they founded the nation of Rhaetia, so named after their leader.

Nobody1
08-06-13, 12:54
I agree with you for the most: Ligurians are not at all for I believe, descendants of Lapps -
this concept 'alpins' = 'lapps' is old -
was it completely stupid? maybe not - 'alpin' phenotype seem having cristallized in western Alps a last mesolithic times upon a cro-magnid background and some scholars think Lapps (Saami) have roughly a half of their ancestors that came there from western Europe fater the LGM (based principally upon mt DNA it is true) - the 'asiatic' ('samoyed'???) part of ancestry among Saami came later, it is supposed - phenotypically, the mongolid part was very very scarce among Saami - they were rather a mix of proto-alpins with some east-cro-magnons of remote same origins, phoetallized in bad environment life, I think -
a proto-basque language could have been their one according to some survey about the substrata of Saami language - the finnic language came lately send by a group that became apparently the 'male' dominant group, where Y-N was heavy and some partly mongolid features were present -

have you even understood the source?
the source [Dr. Rudolf Carl Virchow - Charite, Berlin] does not claim the ancient-Ligurians to be descendent from the Lapps, its states that the ancient-Ligurians and the Lapps are of a broader common stock of peoples that once occupied a broader area in Europe. Dr. Virchow than continues and lists all the craniological similarities that are exclusive to Lapps and ancient-Ligurians.

Roberto Bosi - The Lapps (1977)
Then [Rudolf Karl] Virchow. examining a number of Lappish skulls at Helsinki, Lund and Copenhagen, in conjunction with ancient Ligurian skulls, discovered many mutual features suggesting an identical strain....The mandible of the Lapps is always small, the bone/formation unemphasized and the chin of a receding pattern not exactly repeated in any other human group - with the very exception of these almost entirely extinct Ligurians.

I doubt you ever even read Virchow;

The Ligurians were later absorbed into/by an Indo-European [Ambronen] people;

Which is attested:

Archaeologically [Urnfield] -

Linguistically [Prof. Altheim - Prof. Whatmough] -

Historically [Polybius] ....for the Ligurians also call themselves Ambrones when they refer to their origin.

and Anthropologically:

Anthropological Society of London - Anthropological review: Vol.V (1867)
when I look upon the delineations of the crania, the photographs and the figures given by M. Nicolucci himself, it appears to me that the difference between Ligurians and Umbrians, is about equal to the differences between Allemands and Germans.

Nobody1
08-06-13, 14:38
@ binx

This is correct, Livius records that the expelled Etruscan from the Po Valley became the Raeti;
But a closer look is needed;

Titus Livius,
records that the Celtic migrations occurred (beginning) in the times of Tarquinius Priscus (~600 BC), and were started by the adventurous migrations of the two Celtic brothers Bellovesus & Segovesus;

Segovesus crossed the Rhine and settled the Hercynian Forest
Bellovesus crossed the Alps and settled the Po Valley - expelling the Etrsucans

Titus Livius continues the Celtic migrations into several waves with
Bellovesus being the first wave;

However this migration and the legend of the two celtic brothers Bellovesus and Segovesus is a fable and Archaeologically not attested;

The Golasecca culture remained consistant [no break] and the Etruscans remained in the Po Valley until the fall of Melpum (north) and Felsina (south);

Plinius - Nat. Hist. - quoting C. Nepos
[I]item Melpum opulentia praecipuum, quod ab Insubribus et Bois et Senonibus deletum eo die, quo Camillus Veios ceperit, Nepos Cornelius tradidit

The fall of Melpum is put with the conquest of Veii by Marcus Furius Camillus ~396 BC;

So if the Etruscan of the Po Valley have had an influence on the Raeti than it must be ~390 BC with the def. expulsion of the Etruscan from the Po valley;

MOESAN
09-06-13, 13:07
I agree with you for the most: Ligurians are not at all for I believe, descendants of Lapps -
this concept 'alpins' = 'lapps' is old -
was it completely stupid? maybe not - 'alpin' phenotype seem having cristallized in western Alps a last mesolithic times upon a cro-magnid background and some scholars think Lapps (Saami) have roughly a half of their ancestors that came there from western Europe fater the LGM (based principally upon mt DNA it is true) - the 'asiatic' ('samoyed'???) part of ancestry among Saami came later, it is supposed - phenotypically, the mongolid part was very very scarce among Saami - they were rather a mix of proto-alpins with some east-cro-magnons of remote same origins, phoetallized in bad environment life, I think -
a proto-basque language could have been their one according to some survey about the substrata of Saami language - the finnic language came lately send by a group that became apparently the 'male' dominant group, where Y-N was heavy and some partly mongolid features were present -

I know this post is not very centered on the subject of this thread, only an aside look :
I correct myself : Y-N is heavy enough among Saami but they have plenty of of Y-I1a too - I think Y-I1 came partly through South partly from South-East (Finland) when Y-N came only through South-East (Finland)

Nobody1
23-08-13, 04:12
The Tropaeum Alpium records all the known Alpine tribes of the Augustan reign;

http://imageshack.us/a/img546/8458/knae.jpg


Most of those tribes are recorded by Classical Historians with an ethnical/tribal description;
Most notably by Pliny and Strabo;


Most of the Alpine Raetic tribes had adopted the Etruscan alphabet and hundreds of inscriptions are documented;

Raetic Bronze-horse with inscription: Pirikanisnu / Dercolo, Trentino - 450 BC
http://imageshack.us/a/img854/4617/2lgo.png

Raetic language is connected to the Tyrsenian and East Medit. Lemnian

Sile
23-08-13, 11:19
The Tropaeum Alpium records all the known Alpine tribes of the Augustan reign;

http://imageshack.us/a/img546/8458/knae.jpg


Most of those tribes are recorded by Classical Historians with an ethnical/tribal description;
Most notably by Pliny and Strabo;


Most of the Alpine Raetic tribes had adopted the Etruscan alphabet and hundreds of inscriptions are documented;

Raetic Bronze-horse with inscription: Pirikanisnu / Dercolo, Trentino - 450 BC
http://imageshack.us/a/img854/4617/2lgo.png

Raetic language is connected to the Tyrsenian and East Medit. Lemnian

The 45 tribes of the raeti where not all raeti, strabo states the Brevni and Genavnes are Illyrian.
The the camvnni and Trvpilini along with the not listed Stoeni are the Euganei people who occupied all of veneto and friuli, before they where thrown out by the Veneti and carni tribes.
According to Pliny the Elder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Elder) the Stoni (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stoni&action=edit&redlink=1) people from Trentino (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trentino) were of the same stock as the Euganei. Cato the Elder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_the_Elder), in the lost book of Origines, counted among the major tribes Euganeans the Triumplini of Valtrompia (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Valtrompia&action=edit&redlink=1) and the Camunni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camunni) of Val Camonica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val_Camonica).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euganei#cite_note-2)
According to Livy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livy) they were defeated by the Adriatic Veneti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti) and the Trojans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy). Their descendants settled west of the Athesis (Adige) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adige) river, around the lakes Sebinus, Edrus, and Benacus, where they occupied 34 towns, which were admitted by Augustus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus) to the rights of Latin cities.


IIRC the etruscan is a non indo-european language and raeti is a indo-european language like Venetic, how are they similar?
Where does it raeti say it was actually was an etruscan language?, the raeti language is a semetic language coming from north caucasus area, did the etruscans come to italy via the alps.

http://www.federatio.org/mi_bibl/Toth_Brunner_Raetic.pdf

Nobody1
23-08-13, 11:55
The 45 tribes of the raeti where not all raeti

Do you mean the 45 Alpine tribes were not all Raeti?
Thats true and Strabo and Pliny describe them the best and precise;


IIRC the etruscan is a non indo-european language and raeti is a indo-european language like Venetic, how are they similar?
Where does it raeti say it was actually was an etruscan language?, the raeti language is a semetic language coming from north caucasus area, did the etruscans come to italy via the alps.

Eichner (2012) - Univeristy Vienna [German]
http://www.jolr.ru/files/%2882%29jlr2012-7%289-32%29.pdf

J. Whatmough - Harvard Studies in Classical Philology Vol. 47
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/310575?uid=3737864&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21102545422911

Elżbieta Mańczak-Wohlfeld -
http://books.google.de/books?id=nP4eT6LbXAwC&pg=PA105&dq=indo-european+raetic&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rDAXUr_WIciv7Aav24HwAQ&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=indo-european%20raetic&f=false

Maybe it was a Semitic language;
either way not Indo-European;


Raetic Archaeology: TIROLER LANDESMUSEUM
http://www.landesmuseum.at/pdf_frei_remote/VeroeffFerd_60_0211-0233.pdf

Sile
23-08-13, 13:02
Do you mean the 45 Alpine tribes were not all Raeti?
Thats true and Strabo and Pliny describe them the best and precise;



I am unsure as the euganei are also described as liguri

the illyrians where there, some call them Nori (pannonian-illyrians), venetics where there, ladins also ( basically raeti that took the latin language and stuck with it over time) , vindelici there as well.

Clearly by the time the romans invaded the raeti where heavily celtinized/gallic

further proof from 2012 paper that by 300BC the venetics where celtinized in language
http://www.jolr.ru/files/%2883%29jlr2012-7%2833-46%29.pdf

Nobody1
24-08-13, 01:51
I am unsure as the euganei are also described as liguri

the illyrians where there, some call them Nori (pannonian-illyrians), venetics where there, ladins also ( basically raeti that took the latin language and stuck with it over time) , vindelici there as well.

Clearly by the time the romans invaded the raeti where heavily celtinized/gallic

further proof from 2012 paper that by 300BC the venetics where celtinized in language
http://www.jolr.ru/files/%2883%29jlr2012-7%2833-46%29.pdf

Great link;
But i wouldnt associate the Veneti with the Raeti to begin with;
The Veneti are proper wholly Indo-Europeans whereas the Raeti was a confederation of numerous tribes;
As you pointed out the Euganei were considered Liguri and Camunic is still not classified as a language;

Polybius - Book II
The part of the plain near the Adriatic had never ceased to be in the possession of another very ancient tribe called the Veneti, differing slightly from the Gauls in customs and costume and speaking another language.

from your source: J. Gvozdanovic - [Uni. Heidelberg]
Within Indo-European, Venetic is predominantly grouped with the western languages, but details still remain to be clarified (cf. also Untermann 1980). Venetic was a centum language (cf. Venetic ke < IE *k'e 'and', and IE *kwe > Venetic -­kve 'and').
As a prominent and relatively specific phonological feature, there was an a-reflex of IE laryngeals between consonants with parallels in Italic and Celtic, e.g. Venetic vha.g.sto 'made (an offering)', Latin facit, Oscan fakiiad from zero-grade of *dheh1 with -­k- extension (IE *dhh1-k-­) (cf. Wallace 2008: 126).
In morphology, Venetic probably shared with Latin and Celtic the ŏ-stem genitive singular ending ­-ī (e.g. keutini 'of Keutinos').
---

Not sure whether its Italic or Keltic that Venetic shares greater similarities
-Since Italic and Keltic share a common root themselves
Venetic was Indo-European but neither Italic or Keltic and has also been described
as proto-Slavic [Matej Bor];

Ventic inscription - Vicenza - 6th-4th cen. BC
http://imageshack.us/a/img826/9900/3lev.png
.o.s..t..s. katus.ia.i.io.s. tona.s.to. a.tra.e..s. te.r.mon.io.s te.i.vo.s.
Osts Katusiaios donasto atraes termonios deivos

Sile
24-08-13, 02:19
Great link;
But i wouldnt associate the Veneti with the Raeti to begin with;
The Veneti are proper wholly Indo-Europeans whereas the Raeti was a confederation of numerous tribes;
As you pointed out the Euganei were considered Liguri and Camunic is still not classified as a language;

Polybius - Book II
The part of the plain near the Adriatic had never ceased to be in the possession of another very ancient tribe called the Veneti, differing slightly from the Gauls in customs and costume and speaking another language.


I was trying to note that the previous link ( raeti language) states raeti and venetic where very similar


From your source: Gozdanovic [Uni. Heidelberg]
Within Indo-European, Venetic is predominantly grouped with the western languages, but details still remain to be clarified (cf. also Untermann 1980). Venetic was a centum language (cf. Venetic ke < IE *k'e 'and', and IE *kwe > Venetic -­kve 'and').
As a prominent and relatively specific phonological feature, there was an a-reflex of IE laryngeals between consonants with parallels in Italic and Celtic, e.g. Venetic vha.g.sto 'made (an offering)', Latin facit, Oscan fakiiad from zero-grade of *dheh1 with -­k- extension (IE *dhh1-k-­) (cf. Wallace 2008: 126).
In morphology, Venetic probably shared with Latin and Celtic the ŏ-stem genitive singular ending ­-ī (e.g. keutini 'of Keutinos').
---

Not sure whether its Italic or Keltic that Venetic shares greater similarities
-Since Italic and Keltic share a common root themselves
Venetic was Indo-European but neither Italic or Keltic and has also been described
as proto-Slavic [Matej Bor];

Ventic inscription - Vicenza - 6th-4th cen. BC
http://imageshack.us/a/img826/9900/3lev.png
.o.s..t..s. katus.ia.i.io.s. tona.s.to. a.tra.e..s. te.r.mon.io.s te.i.vo.s.
Osts Katusiaios donasto atraes termonios deivos

What italic was there if the etruscan was not italic and non indo-european, plus of the 360 venetic written finds, 6 are in western Slovenia, 21 in austria as far as innsbruck and the rest only in modern veneto, friuli and south tyrol/trentino areas. Clearly the ancient script was non celtic-italic but became celtic-italic by about 300BC ( note: the veneti went under Rome as an ally ( no wars ) from 189BC ) even though Veneti troops fought alongside Romans against Hannibal.

Nobody1
24-08-13, 03:26
I was trying to note that the previous link ( raeti language) states raeti and venetic where very similar

How is that even possible?
Raetic is non-Indo-European and Venetic is Indo-European;

Your second study perfectly explains Venetic;
J. Gvozdanovic - [Uni. Heidelberg]
http://www.jolr.ru/files/%2883%29jlr2012-7%2833-46%29.pdf

As for your first study;
Im not sure how credible linking Raetic to Semitic even is;
Apparently most of Brunner-Toths adventurous linguistics has been rejected;
Here Brunner-Toth is linking Hungarian and Finno-Ugric to [B]Sumerian
http://www.mathematical-semiotics.com/pdf/Rahetic%20and%20FU-U.pdf


Either way Raetic is non-Indo-European (whether Tyrsenian, Semitic or Isolated) so no link with the Indo-European Venetic;


What italic was there if the etruscan was not italic and non indo-european, plus of the 360 venetic written finds, 6 are in western Slovenia, 21 in austria as far as innsbruck and the rest only in modern veneto, friuli and south tyrol/trentino areas. Clearly the ancient script was non celtic-italic but became celtic-italic by about 300BC ( note: the veneti went under Rome as an ally ( no wars ) from 189BC ) even though Veneti troops fought alongside Romans against Hannibal.

What Etruscans are you refferring to?

Livy recorded the Euganei in the Area before the Veneti pushed them out;
Polybius records the Veneti to be ancient inhabitants of that region;

Venetic is Indo-European but not of the Italic branch / pos. akin to;
Once again the study from J. Gvozdanovic perfectly explains that;

J. Gvozdanovic -
http://www.jolr.ru/files/%2883%29jlr2012-7%2833-46%29.pdf
Of these, only the Northern Adriatic Veneti left a set of mainly votive and funerary texts, classified by Lejeune (1974: 21) with some approximation into periods called Archaic (550–475 BC), Ancient (475–300 BC), Recent (300–150 BC), and Veneto-Latin (150–100 BC)./
Discussions about the linguistic classification of Venetic among the western Indo-European languages gear towards two major solutions: either treating Venetic as a relatively archaic Indo-European language with some similarities, but not unequivocally attributable to any other western Indo-European group (cf. especially Krahe 1950 and Polomé 1966), or assuming a close connection with Italic (especially Beeler 1949, or Euler 1993, who considers Venetic to be closely connected with Italic, but with archaic morphological traits)
---.

Yes the Veneti were always allys of Rome;

Polybius - Book II [~390 BC / Allia - Sack of Rome]
Not long afterwards they defeated the Romans and their allies in a pitched battle, and pursuing the fugitives, occupied, three days after the battle, the whole of Rome with the exception of the Capitol, but being diverted by an invasion of their own country by the Veneti, they made on this occasion a treaty with the Romans, and evacuating the city, returned home.

Sile
24-08-13, 07:20
How is that even possible?
Raetic is non-Indo-European and Venetic is Indo-European;

Your second study perfectly explains Venetic;
J. Gvozdanovic - [Uni. Heidelberg]
http://www.jolr.ru/files/%2883%29jlr2012-7%2833-46%29.pdf

As for your first study;
Im not sure how credible linking Raetic to Semitic even is;
Apparently most of Brunner-Toths adventurous linguistics has been rejected;
Here Brunner-Toth is linking Hungarian and Finno-Ugric to [B]Sumerian
http://www.mathematical-semiotics.com/pdf/Rahetic%20and%20FU-U.pdf


Either way Raetic is non-Indo-European (whether Tyrsenian, Semitic or Isolated) so no link with the Indo-European Venetic;



What Etruscans are you refferring to?

Livy recorded the Euganei in the Area before the Veneti pushed them out;
Polybius records the Veneti to be ancient inhabitants of that region;

Venetic is Indo-European but not of the Italic branch / pos. akin to;
Once again the study from J. Gvozdanovic perfectly explains that;

J. Gvozdanovic -
http://www.jolr.ru/files/%2883%29jlr2012-7%2833-46%29.pdf
Of these, only the Northern Adriatic Veneti left a set of mainly votive and funerary texts, classified by Lejeune (1974: 21) with some approximation into periods called Archaic (550–475 BC), Ancient (475–300 BC), Recent (300–150 BC), and Veneto-Latin (150–100 BC)./
Discussions about the linguistic classification of Venetic among the western Indo-European languages gear towards two major solutions: either treating Venetic as a relatively archaic Indo-European language with some similarities, but not unequivocally attributable to any other western Indo-European group (cf. especially Krahe 1950 and Polomé 1966), or assuming a close connection with Italic (especially Beeler 1949, or Euler 1993, who considers Venetic to be closely connected with Italic, but with archaic morphological traits)
---.

Yes the Veneti were always allys of Rome;

Polybius - Book II [~390 BC / Allia - Sack of Rome]
Not long afterwards they defeated the Romans and their allies in a pitched battle, and pursuing the fugitives, occupied, three days after the battle, the whole of Rome with the exception of the Capitol, but being diverted by an invasion of their own country by the Veneti, they made on this occasion a treaty with the Romans, and evacuating the city, returned home.

ok

I thought I read raeti was indo-european since it was next to lepontic and venetic

Nobody1
01-09-13, 20:02
ok

I thought I read raeti was indo-european since it was next to lepontic and venetic

No problem;

Dont know if you have read about this already, but thats also a pretty good study on ancient Venetic

Prof. Wallace - (2008)
http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~mimno/papers/venetic.pdf

Sile
03-09-13, 08:20
No problem;

Dont know if you have read about this already, but thats also a pretty good study on ancient Venetic

Prof. Wallace - (2008)
http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~mimno/papers/venetic.pdf

your above have been replaced by this 2012 paper
http://www.jolr.ru/files/%2883%29jlr2012-7%2833-46%29.pdf






In regards to some words in your paper:

Tola(e)r is still used in venetian today, but it means "too take", it is broken down further to
Tor = Take as in take it if you like or
Tol = I want you to take it

the ego for I is interesting , it is represented in surnames from mainland Veneto ie Martinego etc, while Igo endings are true Venetian like Mocenigo , Barbarigo etc

The Dei is Di in venetian and it means day.
like Lunadi =......... luna=moon,........... di=day....moonday, is Monday
Italian say Giorno, go figure???, Giorno for venetians is between noon and evening
so
Notte = night
Notorada = day light
mattina = Morning
Mexodi = mid day
Giorno = early afternoon
Mexogiorno = mid afternoon
Sera = evening

Mego , is I have and Me ga is also used.
me = me


(http://www.jolr.ru/files/%2883%29jlr2012-7%2833-46%29.pdf)

Nobody1
03-09-13, 14:26
Definitely;

But i wouldnt say that Guozdanovic replaced Wallace;
Both of them are def. good studies on ancient-Venetic;

Guozdanovic -
http://www.jolr.ru/files/%2883%29jlr2012-7%2833-46%29.pdf
Wallace -
http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~mimno/papers/venetic.pdf


Venetic alphabet(variants) and Inscription distribution;
http://imageshack.us/a/img513/5732/o1k.png

Not sure from what year the map is;
maybe even more inscriptions have been discovered by now;


Funerary stele / Warrior on Horseback - Padova
http://imageshack.us/a/img443/1821/hxic.png
-.e.nogene.i.e./neϑiio.i.e.p.pe/ϑtari.s.a.l.ϑa/reniio.i.
-enogenei enetioi eppetaris albarenioi

Sile
05-09-13, 09:09
Definitely;

But i wouldnt say that Guozdanovic replaced Wallace;
Both of them are def. good studies on ancient-Venetic;

Guozdanovic -
http://www.jolr.ru/files/%2883%29jlr2012-7%2833-46%29.pdf
Wallace -
http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~mimno/papers/venetic.pdf


Venetic alphabet(variants) and Inscription distribution;
http://imageshack.us/a/img513/5732/o1k.png

Not sure from what year the map is;
maybe even more inscriptions have been discovered by now;


Funerary stele / Warrior on Horseback - Padova
http://imageshack.us/a/img443/1821/hxic.png
-.e.nogene.i.e./neϑiio.i.e.p.pe/ϑtari.s.a.l.ϑa/reniio.i.
-enogenei enetioi eppetaris albarenioi

Map must be not before 500BC as cennomani and carni are on it