Who where the Sabines?

Who where the Sabines, Samnites, oscans, Umbrians, brutii, Volscians, Marsi? I heard that oscans where related people's such as pelasgian oenotrians of southern Hesperia, where the Samnites Greeks, middle eastern or italics? Thread to discuss the origins of all these italian groups!: )

Indo-Europeans for starters and all linked to the (Indo-European) Umbrians

Isaac Taylor - The Origin of the Aryans (1890)
Towards the close of the neolithic age the same Aryan-speaking race [Indo-Europeans] which constructed the Swiss pile dwellings seems to have crossed the Alps, erecting their pile dwellings in the Italian lakes and in the marshes of the valley of the Po. Helbig has proved that these people must be identified with those whom we call the Umbrians. This conclusion, established solely on archaeological grounds, is confirmed by the close connection between Celtic and Italic speech, and also by the almost identical civilization disclosed by the pile dwellings of Italy [North] and those of Switzerland.



Pliny - Natural History (79 AD)
"The race of the Umbri is considered the oldest in Italy."
"They suppose that the Umbri, or, as the Greeks call them, Ombrioi, are so named, because they survived the inundation of the world by floods of rain (imbribus)." —(C. Plin. lib. ii. Nat. Hist. c. 14.)

James C. Prichard - Ethnography of Europe: Vol.III (1841)
Solinus informs us that Bocchus, a writer who has been several times cited by Pliny, reported the Umbri to have been descended from the ancient Gauls; and a similar account of their origin has been adopted, either from the same or from different testimony, by Servius, Isidore, and other writers of a late period.
[Bocchus (affranchi lettre de Sylla) absolvit Gallorum veterum propaginem Umbros esse]
[Umbri, Italiae gens est, sed Gallorum veterum propago]

---

Sabines & Samnites

Sabines as well as the Samnites were Umbrian Indo-European branches, that mixed with the pre-Indo-European Oenotrian-Pelasgians in South Italy and the pre-Indo-European Ligurians in North and Pelasgians in Central Italy.

James Cowles Prichard - Researches into the physical History of Mankind: Vol.3 (1841)
Dionysius cites one Xenodotus of Troezene, who wrote the history of the Umbrians. According to him the Sabines were originally an Umbrian people,

Thomas Henry Dyer - The history of the kings of Rome (1886)
These various races are commonly ranked under the three grand divisions of Umbrians, Sabellians, and Latins; though some writers, as Dr. Mommsen, recognise only two, including under the Umbrians those races which others call Sabellian. The Sabellian races included the Sabines and the Samnites, with the tribes which sprung from them, as the Marsi, Marrucini, Peligni, Picentes, Hirpini, and others. The near connexion between theSabines and the Samnites is shewn by the fact that the latter called themselves Safini with a change of b into f And that the term Sabellus was applied both to Samnites and Sabines appears from several passages in ancient authors. Horace uses it of both races. Pliny says that the Samnites were called Sabelli, and Livy identifies the Sabellian territory with that of Samnium.

Also the Sacrani are identified with the Sabines and their Ver Sacrum (Sacred Spring).

Princely tomb from the Sabine Hills - all in NY CARLSBERG GLYPTOTEK (Denmark)
http://www.glyptoteket.com/explore/the-collections/artwork/princely-tomb-sabine-hills

Sabine - Bronze shields from the Sabine Hills (near Rome) - NY CARLSBERG GLYPTOTEK


Sabine - Sun Disk from the tomb from Fara in Sabina


Samnite warrior - [Capua fresco 4th cen BC] / Samnite helmet from Lavello


Needless to say that the Samnites had massive influence from Magna Graecia, same for the Lucani and Brutii.

But the Greeks considered them all (incl. Romans) Barbarians.

Dionysius of Halicarnasses - Roman Antiquities (29BC)
But, if any are, naturally, slow in giving credit to accounts of ancient transactions without examination, let them be so in believing them to be Ligures, Umbri, or any other Barbarians;

Pelasgians

John Denison Baldwin - Pre-Historic Nations (1869)
Dionysius of Halicarnassus, justly described as one of the most diligent and accurate antiquaries of his time, states that the first Pelasgian immigrants who settled in Italy went from Arcadia "seventeen generations before the Trojan War." Their leader was Oenotrus; on this account they were called Oenotrians. Dionysius says: "Antiochus, an ancient historian, relates that the Oenotrians were the first [Pelasgic] settlers known to have come into Italy; that one of this race, called Italus, was a king; and that Italus was succeeded by Morges,-from whom the Oenotrians were called Morgetes and Italians." The Oenotrians were followed by other Pelasgian colonies from Thessaly, and probably from other districts of the wide region occupied by the Pelasgic race.

The Pelasgians from Thessaly are described to have entered Italy via the Mouth of the Po.

Dionysius of Halicarnasses - Roman Antiquities (29BC)
greatest part of them, passing through the midland country, took refuge among the inhabitants of Dodona, their relations (against whom, as a sacred people, none would make war) where they continued some time. But, finding themselves grow troublesome, and the country not being sufficient to rapport them all, they lest it in obedience to an oracle, which commanded them to sail to Italy, then, called Saturnia: And, having prepared a great many ships, they passed the Ionian sea, endeavouring to reach the nearest parts of Italy. But, the wind being in the south, and they unacquainted with the coast, they were carried off to sea, and landed at one of the mouths of the Po, called Spines.

2 waves of Pelasgians, first from Arcadia (Oenotri) and the second from Thessaly (Tyrsenoi)

Oh.my god...your name must be changed to SOMEBODY! So the Etruscans where Thessalian Greeks?? What about Lydia? I always thought the Marsi where pelasgian, I though sanitize , Samnites, was related to Sannoi tribe of Georgia in the Caucasus and Sabines was Greeks....?

adamo said:

Oh.my god...your name must be changed to SOMEBODY! So the Etruscans where Thessalian Greeks?? What about Lydia? I always thought the Marsi where pelasgian, I though sanitize , Samnites, was related to Sannoi tribe of Georgia in the Caucasus and Sabines was Greeks....?

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Not Thessalian Greeks, just Pelasgians from Thessaly.
However you are correct, Herodotus places the origin of the Tyrsenoi in Lydia (West Asia Minor); its Dionysius who places the origins of the Tyrsenoi in Thessaly.
Personally i think its absolutely secondary from where in the East Aegean the Tyrsenoi-Pelasgians originated.
Sabines are proper Umbrians, Samnites and Marsi just mixed Umbro-Pelasgians (Oenotrians) in the South of Italy (Saturnia).

Whats really interesting is that the Pelasgians on Lemnos were also called Tyrsenoi.

Jan Gijsbert Pieter Best - Thracians and Mycenaeans (1989)
Now, at this point it is interesting to note that the Pelasgoi, who according to Strabo fled from Boeotia to Athens and settled at the foot of the Hymettos, are identified by Thucydides with the Tyrrhenoi (= Tyrsenoi or Tarsinoi), occupying Lemnos and Chalkidike during the historical period

and its no coincident that exactly at Lemnos (East Aegean) , was were found the famous Stele
resembling the Etruscan (Tyrsenoi) language.

Lemnos stele [6th cen BC]

So Samnites and marsians are Umbrians that picked up pelasgian element. Where did the Thessalians originally come from? If there where tyrrhenians on Lemnos and Samothrace, this would put the, exponentially closer to western turkey.....maybe they first set up on those islands after leaving Anatolia and survived their for a very long time being compared to bands of pirates A.K.A. "Sea people's"

adamo said:

Where did the Thessalians originally come from?

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Strabo - Geographica (23AD)
As for the Pelasgi, almost all agree, in the first place, that some ancient tribe of that name spread throughout the whole of Greece, and particularly among the Aeolians of Thessaly.

Peter Derow - Herodotus and his World (2003)
Herodotos claims, in various statements, that all Greeks except the Dorians were originally Pelasgians. In 1.56-8 he characterizes the lonians as Pelasgians, whom he represents as non-Greeks who became Hellenized. Elsewhere he says that the Aeolians and the Arcadians were Pelasgian,

adamo said:

If there where tyrrhenians on Lemnos and Samothrace, this would put the, exponentially closer to western turkey.....maybe they first set up on those islands after leaving Anatolia and survived their for a very long time

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Apparently the Pelasgians (Tyrsenoi) were chased out of Lemnos and then settled near Mount Athos.

Simon Hornblower - A Commentary on Thucydides: Books IV-V (1991)
Thucydides, still talking about the ethnic make-up of the Athos peoples, mentions Pelasgians descended from the Tyrrhenians, i.e. Etruscans, who once inhabited Lemnos.

adamo said:

being compared to bands of pirates A.K.A. "Sea people's"

Click to expand...

Sea Peoples, are a very interesting point also in connection with Sardinia. But its mostly all not very conclusive, so it will remain a mystery.

I can't believe that you have opened this thread. Now that is synchronicity. It is the Samnites who led me to Vinca, via Illyria, Arcadia, Thessaly and Thrace. I have pile of material and was planning to present it all on the vinca culture tread.

For now guys all i can say is follow the wolf.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samnium

Look at the Samnite flag....

Well clearly at this point Sabine and Samnites are a germano-Celtic stock of R1b Italians and not J2 "Sannoi" Tzannoi of Georgia Armenia region. But then why where Sabines often in fatal conflict with the latins who eventually "subdued" the rest of the italics....also there is the Osco-Umbrian linguistic link of these R1b men, but I always thought that oscans ( Opici) where somehow pelasgians linked to greek opus or the Opsician area of influence in northwestern Anatolia near Troad (Troy.) also, the Umbrians are linked to the city of Assisi built by dardanus from the dardanians-Troy region of turkey...

Well clearly at this point Sabine and Samnites are a germano-Celtic stock of R1b Italians

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Yes germano-Celtic-Illyrian but I2, not R1b, haplogroup.

adamo said:

also, the Umbrians are linked to the city of Assisi built by dardanus from the dardanians-Troy region of turkey...

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Correct, (thats why i gave you the plus)

But who exactly was Dardanus? Dardanus was son of Corythus, King of Cortona

Brian Benjamin Shefton - Greek identity in the Western Mediterranean (2004)
According to Hellanicus (FGrHist 4 F 4), the Pelasgians founded Cortona in Etruria, coming from Spina.

from post#3

Dionysius of Halicarnasses - Roman Antiquities (29BC)
And, having prepared a great many ships, they passed the Ionian sea, endeavouring to reach the nearest parts of Italy. But, the wind being in the south, and they unacquainted with the coast, they were carried off to sea, and landed at one of the mouths of the Po, called Spines.[Spina]

we are talking about the exact same Pelasgians (Tyrsenoi), as mentioned before (2nd wave - Tyrsenoi). Your link to Asia Minor is very cool, might indicate that Herodotus was correct and not Dionysius.

The Tyrsenoi-Umbrian link is also well attested:

Cambrian Institute - The Cambrian Journal (1862)
from - Myrsilus Lesbius (Frag. De. Ital.);
"Xanthus writes that the Pelasgi invaded Thuscia, which was formerly called Umbria." "Tyrrhenus, arriving in the southern district of the Tiber, held it, and all the middle portion, from its sources to the spot where the Prisci Umbri inhabited; and he settled with them, and dwelt with them, and built the cities called the Maeonian and Tyrrhenian."

The Villanova culture [Villanova I 1100-900 BC and Villanova II 900-700 BC] of the Urnfield complex was an Umbrian - Pelasgian (Tyrsenoi) hybrid.

from: Kristian Kristiansen - Europe before History (1998)


The Umbrians were Indo-Europeans of the Bronze age (Terremare culture) and akin to the Indo-European Kelts.

Pliny - Natural History (79 AD)
"The race of the Umbri is considered the oldest in Italy." —(C. Plin. lib. ii. Nat. Hist. c. 14.)

Cambrian Institute - The Cambrian Journal (1862)
from Caius Sempronius (De Divis. Ital.,);
"The portion of the Apennines from the sources of the Tiber to the Nar, the Umbri inhabit, the oldest stock of the Old Gael, (Veteres Galli), as Augustus writes."
[Apenninum colunt Ligures, portionem vero Apennini inhabitant Umbri, prima veterum Gallorum proies, ut Augustus scribit.]

James C. Prichard - Ethnography of Europe: Vol.III (1841)
Solinus informs us that Bocchus, a writer who has been several times cited by Pliny, reported the Umbri to have been descended from the ancient Gauls; and a similar account of their origin has been adopted, either from the same or from different testimony, by Servius, Isidore, and other writers of a late period.
[Bocchus (affranchi lettre de Sylla) absolvit Gallorum veterum propaginem Umbros esse]
[Umbri, Italiae gens est, sed Gallorum veterum propago]

the linguistic link between Keltic and Italic, via Umbrian

Luke Owen Pike - The English and their Origin (1866)
If now we consult the Umbrian language with a view of discovering whether it approaches more nearly the Gaelic or the Cymric type, we find, scanty though the evidence may be, that Umbrian differs from Latin in precisely the same manner in which Cymric and Greek differ from Latin. The Latin qu becomes, in Umbrian, as in Welsh and Greek, p: e.g. Latin quatuor, Umbrian petur, Welsh pedwar. The Welsh uch, uchel, appears as the Umbrian ucar, the Greek aixpog; the Welsh hwra as the Umbrian hri, the Greek aipsco;

Maeonians in Italy..amazing so the tyrrhenians WHERE west-central ANATOLIANS....the Umbrians had pelasgian cities but where celts? Don't get that part though...they absorbed dardanian/Tyrrhenian elements? Same for oscans as well? A mix maybe?

adamo said:

so the tyrrhenians WHERE west-central ANATOLIANS....

Click to expand...

If Herodotus is correct yes, if Dionysius is correct its Thessaly. But again absolutely secondary from where in the East Aegean they originated from. Pelasgians are Pelasgians.

adamo said:

the Umbrians had pelasgian cities but where celts? Don't get that part though...

Click to expand...

Whats not to get???

The Umbrians

Isaac Taylor - The Origin of the Aryans (1890)
Towards the close of the neolithic age the same Aryan-speaking race [Indo-Europeans] which constructed the Swiss pile dwellings seems to have crossed the Alps, erecting their pile dwellings in the Italian lakes and in the marshes of the valley of the Po. Helbig has proved that these people must be identified with those whom we call the Umbrians. This conclusion, established solely on archaeological grounds, is confirmed by the close connection between Celtic and Italic speech, and also by the almost identical civilization disclosed by the pile dwellings of Italy [North] and those of Switzerland.

Pliny - Natural History (79 AD)
"The race of the Umbri is considered the oldest in Italy." —(C. Plin. lib. ii. Nat. Hist. c. 14.)

Cambrian Institute - The Cambrian Journal (1862)
from Caius Sempronius (De Divis. Ital.,);
"The portion of the Apennines from the sources of the Tiber to the Nar, the Umbri inhabit, the oldest stock of the Old Gael, (Veteres Galli), as Augustus writes."
[Apenninum colunt Ligures, portionem vero Apennini inhabitant Umbri, prima veterum Gallorum proies, ut Augustus scribit.]

James C. Prichard - Ethnography of Europe: Vol.III (1841)
Solinus informs us that Bocchus, a writer who has been several times cited by Pliny, reported the Umbri to have been descended from the ancient Gauls; and a similar account of their origin has been adopted, either from the same or from different testimony, by Servius, Isidore, and other writers of a late period.
[Bocchus (affranchi lettre de Sylla) absolvit Gallorum veterum propaginem Umbros esse]
[Umbri, Italiae gens est, sed Gallorum veterum propago]

James Cowles Prichard - Researches into the physical History of Mankind: Vol.3 (1841)
Dionysius cites one Xenodotus of Troezene, who wrote the history of the Umbrians. According to him the Sabines were originally an Umbrian people,

Umbrians are Bronze age Indo-Europeans akin to Kelts and the Sabines, the Oscans etc. were all Umbrians.


The Pelasgians

John Denison Baldwin - Pre-Historic Nations (1869)
Dionysius of Halicarnassus, justly described as one of the most diligent and accurate antiquaries of his time, states that the first Pelasgian immigrants who settled in Italy went from Arcadia "seventeen generations before the Trojan War." Their leader was Oenotrus; on this account they were called Oenotrians. Dionysius says: "Antiochus, an ancient historian, relates that the Oenotrians were the first [Pelasgic] settlers known to have come into Italy; that one of this race, called Italus, was a king; and that Italus was succeeded by Morges,-from whom the Oenotrians were called Morgetes and Italians." The Oenotrians were followed by other Pelasgian colonies from Thessaly, and probably from other districts of the wide region occupied by the Pelasgic race.

Dionysius of Halicarnasses - Roman Antiquities (29BC)
greatest part of them, passing through the midland country, took refuge among the inhabitants of Dodona, their relations (against whom, as a sacred people, none would make war) where they continued some time. But, finding themselves grow troublesome, and the country not being sufficient to rapport them all, they lest it in obedience to an oracle, which commanded them to sail to Italy, then, called Saturnia: And, having prepared a great many ships, they passed the Ionian sea, endeavouring to reach the nearest parts of Italy. But, the wind being in the south, and they unacquainted with the coast, they were carried off to sea, and landed at one of the mouths of the Po, called Spines.

The Pre-Indo-European Pelasgians came to Italy in 2 waves from Arcadia (Oenotrians) and from the East Aegean (Tyrsenoi)


The scenario in Italy

Cambrian Institute - The Cambrian Journal (1862)
from - Myrsilus Lesbius (Frag. De. Ital.);
"Xanthus writes that the Pelasgi invaded Thuscia, which was formerly called Umbria." "Tyrrhenus, arriving in the southern district of the Tiber, held it, and all the middle portion, from its sources to the spot where the Prisci Umbri inhabited; and he settled with them, and dwelt with them, and built the cities called the Maeonian and Tyrrhenian."

The result = Villanova culture I (1100-900 BC) - II (900 - 700 BC)


The other Umbrians

Dionysius - The Roman Antiquities (29 BC)
The Umbri inhabited a great many other parts of Italy, and were an exceeding great, and ancient people.

not all Umbrians were absorbed into the Pelasgian Tyrsenoi [becoming the Etruscan Civilization] - there were many other Umbrians in Italy.
Other Umbrians remained independant until Roman times [Sabines or as Umbrians]
Others like the Insubres (IsOMBRI) absorbed Ligurians [Umbro-Ligures], others absorbed Pelasgian Oenotrians [Samnites]

the Greek Polybius wrote about Italia during the Early Roman Republic:

Polybius - Histories (focus: 225 BC)
Next come the Etruscans and after them both slopes are inhabited by the Umbrians.....The first settlers at the eastern extremity,a near the source of the Po, were the Laevi and Lebecii, after them the Insubres, the largest tribe of all, and next these, on the banks of the river, the Cenomani......The cavalry of the Sabines and Etruscans, who had come to the temporary assistance of Rome..... The military contingent of the Umbrians and Sarsinates inhabiting the Apennines amounted to about twenty thousand, and with these were twenty thousand Veneti and Cenomani.....but the main body of the Insubres, Boii, and Taurisci, once the javelineers had withdrawn into the ranks and the Roman maniples attacked them, met the enemy and kept up a stubborn hand-to‑hand combat. For, though being almost cut to pieces, they held their ground, equal to their foes in courage, and inferior only, as a force and individually, in their arms. - Battle of Telamon -

Umbrians, Sabines and Insubres all still a multitude during the Early Roman Republic and beyond.-


Stele of Bormio [4th cen BC] - Bormio, North Italy - Lombardy (Raetic warriors)

@ Nobody

I don't know about 2 waves but yes I agree that Pelasgians went to Italy and named Etruscans.
a minor Asian population.

Ομβριοι Ubrians yes means rain people,

Look at the text he contributed....then you come along to confirm "Ubrians is rain people's".....nice! Thanks for that yetos : )

when polybius wrote his works in 225BC, the celts had already invaded north Italy. the cenomanni came from marseilles area in the south of france , they where neigbours of the volcae ( who eventually went to bavaria) and pushed the raetic people into the alps, they ( cenomanni ) eventually settled in verona and cremona areas. The taurisci went as far as vienna and there "related" namesakes the taurini settled in piedmont. The carni ( gascon celts) settled in friuli and western slovenia.

The insubres to this day as per italian historians represent only the milanese people and no other lombard people.

Why do I mention this , because the celtic invasion down lombardy sweeping into romagna to the adriatic happened around 500BC , the umbrians where already isolated further south and played no part in northern Italy ( if they ever did ). Unless you are leading to some conclusion which I cannot see, then please advise what is the point

Didn't the cenomani come from French cenomani of north-western France near Brittany? Carnutes are also from north-central France near the same area more or less, no? Insubres has a name of a regional "canton" of the Aeudui tribe.

zanipolo said:

when polybius wrote his works in 225BC, the celts had already invaded north Italy

Click to expand...

No Kidding,

zanipolo said:

The insubres to this day as per italian historians represent only the milanese people and no other lombard people.

Click to expand...

really,

Giovanni Battista Giani - Battaglia del Ticino tra Annibale e Scipione (1824)
Lo stesso Livio poi col dire che l'esercito Romano passando il Ticino, traductus est in agrum Insubrium,....popoli dall'una all'altra sponda; essendo notissimo che gi' Insubri abitavano tra l' Adda ed il Ticino, inoltrati anche al di là di questo fiume
TRANSLATION -
The same Livio (Livy) then by saying that the Roman army crossing the Ticino, leading the field in the agrum Insubrium,....peoples from one to the other shore; being well-known that the Insubres inhabited between the 'Adda and Ticino, also forwarded beyond this river

Tabula Peutingeriana - ~500AD - Roman map
[Insubres - between Tessin - Adda - Oglio]


Polybius - Histories (focus: 225 BC)
The first settlers at the eastern extremity,a near the source of the Po, were the Laevi and Lebecii, after them the Insubres, the largest tribe of all, and next these, on the banks of the river, the Cenomani

John T. Koch - The Celts: History, Life, and Culture (2012)
The area occupied by the Golasecca culture is roughly consistent with the Celtic peoples of the Insubres, Oromobii, and Lepontii mentioned in classical literature.

Thats were History and Archaeology go hand in hand;


Insubres and the Golasecca-culture area



So its safe to say that the Insubres dwelt between Tessin and Adda (a good part of Lombardy) and were def. one of the largest tribes.


The Insubres

Matthias Koch - Die Alpen-Etrusker (1853)
Auffallend bleibt jedoch immer, dass in dem Insubrer-Namen der Umbrer-Name steckt. Polybius, der Erste, welcher die Insubrer nennt, schreibt oi'Iσομβροι , und 'Oμροι und 'Oμßρixoi heissen bei den Griechen die Umbrer,
TRANSLATION -
Strikingly, however, always remains that the Umbrians name is in the Insubres name. Polybius, the first who called the Insubres, writes oi'Iσομβροι, and 'Oμροι and 'Oμßρixoi called by the Greeks the Umbrians,

Edward Gibbon - Miscellaneous Vol.5 (1814)
I reckoned the Insubres among the Gauls, on the authority of all the ancients;....Polybius indeed calls them Isombri, which in Celtic signifies the Lower Ombri. But Polybius acknowledges them for Gauls;

Sir William Smith - Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography (1861)
But Livy has not explained the origin of the Insubres; and if the Insubres were in North Italy before this invasion, and were a Celtic people, they must have come in a former immigration; and if Is-umbri is the genuine form of the word, we may assume that they were Umbri, who had long been settled in the basin of the Po.

Christian Keferstein - Ansichten über die keltischen Alterthümer Vol.2 (1849)
Die Olombri (von ol im Keltischen hoch) bewohnten, die Gebirge, die Isombri oder (Insubres (von is im Keltischen niedrig) die Ebenen und hatten Mailand zum Mittelpunkt, die Vilombri (von bei das Ufer) die Ufergegenden, das Umbria am adriatischen Meere, im heutigen Kirchenstaate, war ein sehr blähendes Land, mit 358 Städten, das etwa 4 Jahrhunderte vor Roms Erbauung sehr mächtig war; die Umbrer verbreiteten sich sehr weit, auf der Ostseite Italiens durch einen Theil von Etrurien und bis über die Tiber; zu ihnen gehörten die Sabini (nach Dionys. von Halicarnass), auch die Aborigines in Latinm, die auch (nach Ammian. Marcell. I. 15. 9.) als Kelten oder Galater bezeichnet werden.
TRANSLATION -
The Olombri inhabited (ol in Celtic high), the mountains, the Isombri or (Insubres (is the Celtic low), the plains and had Mailand (Mediolanum) as their center, the Vilombri (of at the shore) the waterfronts, the Umbria on the Adriatic sea in today's Church state, was a very packed country, with 358 cities, which was about 4 centuries before Rome edification very powerful, and the Umbrians spread very far, on the east side of Italy by a part of Etruria and beyond the Tiber; of them were the Sabini (by Dionysius. Halicarnass), the Aborigines in Latium, which are also known (by Ammianus. Marcell. I. 15 9) as Celts or Galatians.


The Insubres are just [Is-Umbri] low-land Umbrians.

all of this is of course supported by:

Dionysius - The Roman Antiquities (29 BC)
The Umbri inhabited a great many other parts of Italy, and were an exceeding great, and ancient people.

Pliny - Natural History (79 AD)
The race of the Umbri is considered the oldest in Italy. —(C. Plin. lib. ii. Nat. Hist. c. 14.)

James Cowles Prichard - Researches into the physical History of Mankind: Vol.3 (1841)
Dionysius cites one Xenodotus of Troezene, who wrote the history of the Umbrians. According to him the Sabines were originally an Umbrian people,

also important to note:

Henry Malden - History of Rome (1830)
It is possible however that the Symbri [sYMBRI], whom Strabo mentions as a small community above the Veneti, may have been a tribe detached from the Umbrians, or left behind in the course of national migration.


Anymore Questions!

Nobody1 said:

No Kidding,



really,

Giovanni Battista Giani - Battaglia del Ticino tra Annibale e Scipione (1824)
Lo stesso Livio poi col dire che l'esercito Romano passando il Ticino, traductus est in agrum Insubrium,....popoli dall'una all'altra sponda; essendo notissimo che gi' Insubri abitavano tra l' Adda ed il Ticino, inoltrati anche al di là di questo fiume
TRANSLATION -
The same Livio (Livy) then by saying that the Roman army crossing the Ticino, leading the field in the agrum Insubrium,....peoples from one to the other shore; being well-known that the Insubres inhabited between the 'Adda and Ticino, also forwarded beyond this river

Tabula Peutingeriana - ~500AD - Roman map
[Insubres - between Tessin - Adda - Oglio]

Polybius - Histories (focus: 225 BC)
The first settlers at the eastern extremity,a near the source of the Po, were the Laevi and Lebecii, after them the Insubres, the largest tribe of all, and next these, on the banks of the river, the Cenomani

John T. Koch - The Celts: History, Life, and Culture (2012)
The area occupied by the Golasecca culture is roughly consistent with the Celtic peoples of the Insubres, Oromobii, and Lepontii mentioned in classical literature.

Thats were History and Archaeology go hand in hand;


Insubres and the Golasecca-culture area

So its safe to say that the Insubres dwelt between Tessin and Adda (a good part of Lombardy) and were def. one of the largest tribes.


The Insubres

Matthias Koch - Die Alpen-Etrusker (1853)
Auffallend bleibt jedoch immer, dass in dem Insubrer-Namen der Umbrer-Name steckt. Polybius, der Erste, welcher die Insubrer nennt, schreibt oi'Iσομβροι , und 'Oμροι und 'Oμßρixoi heissen bei den Griechen die Umbrer,
TRANSLATION -
Strikingly, however, always remains that the Umbrians name is in the Insubres name. Polybius, the first who called the Insubres, writes oi'Iσομβροι, and 'Oμροι and 'Oμßρixoi called by the Greeks the Umbrians,

Edward Gibbon - Miscellaneous Vol.5 (1814)
I reckoned the Insubres among the Gauls, on the authority of all the ancients;....Polybius indeed calls them Isombri, which in Celtic signifies the Lower Ombri. But Polybius acknowledges them for Gauls;

Sir William Smith - Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography (1861)
But Livy has not explained the origin of the Insubres; and if the Insubres were in North Italy before this invasion, and were a Celtic people, they must have come in a former immigration; and if Is-umbri is the genuine form of the word, we may assume that they were Umbri, who had long been settled in the basin of the Po.

Christian Keferstein - Ansichten über die keltischen Alterthümer Vol.2 (1849)
Die Olombri (von ol im Keltischen hoch) bewohnten, die Gebirge, die Isombri oder (Insubres (von is im Keltischen niedrig) die Ebenen und hatten Mailand zum Mittelpunkt, die Vilombri (von bei das Ufer) die Ufergegenden, das Umbria am adriatischen Meere, im heutigen Kirchenstaate, war ein sehr blähendes Land, mit 358 Städten, das etwa 4 Jahrhunderte vor Roms Erbauung sehr mächtig war; die Umbrer verbreiteten sich sehr weit, auf der Ostseite Italiens durch einen Theil von Etrurien und bis über die Tiber; zu ihnen gehörten die Sabini (nach Dionys. von Halicarnass), auch die Aborigines in Latinm, die auch (nach Ammian. Marcell. I. 15. 9.) als Kelten oder Galater bezeichnet werden.
TRANSLATION -
The Olombri inhabited (ol in Celtic high), the mountains, the Isombri or (Insubres (is the Celtic low), the plains and had Mailand (Mediolanum) as their center, the Vilombri (of at the shore) the waterfronts, the Umbria on the Adriatic sea in today's Church state, was a very packed country, with 358 cities, which was about 4 centuries before Rome edification very powerful, and the Umbrians spread very far, on the east side of Italy by a part of Etruria and beyond the Tiber; of them were the Sabini (by Dionysius. Halicarnass), the Aborigines in Latium, which are also known (by Ammianus. Marcell. I. 15 9) as Celts or Galatians.


The Insubres are just [Is-Umbri] low-land Umbrians.

all of this is of course supported by:

Dionysius - The Roman Antiquities (29 BC)
The Umbri inhabited a great many other parts of Italy, and were an exceeding great, and ancient people.

Pliny - Natural History (79 AD)
The race of the Umbri is considered the oldest in Italy. —(C. Plin. lib. ii. Nat. Hist. c. 14.)

James Cowles Prichard - Researches into the physical History of Mankind: Vol.3 (1841)
Dionysius cites one Xenodotus of Troezene, who wrote the history of the Umbrians. According to him the Sabines were originally an Umbrian people,

also important to note:

Henry Malden - History of Rome (1830)
It is possible however that the Symbri [sYMBRI], whom Strabo mentions as a small community above the Veneti, may have been a tribe detached from the Umbrians, or left behind in the course of national migration.


Anymore Questions!

Click to expand...

ok, bigger than what I thought, they where part swiss , part Piemont and zero east lombard .......maybe thats the reason the venetian republic ruled east lombardy for over 370 years without issue


anyway, i attached a map and dialects of the insubres
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Distribuzione_Insubre.GIF

Italics, central european looking; not med looking.. the med people were the first inhabitant of italy before the inoruropean italics and celts came from central europe