PDA

View Full Version : R1b entry into Europe



adamo
12-05-13, 08:23
Did R1b take the central Asian route into Europe or did it enter into Europe from Anatolia to Balkans route? This is a debate

Yaan
13-05-13, 11:24
Did R1b take the central Asian route into Europe or did it enter into Europe from Anatolia to Balkans route? This is a debate
From Anatolia to the Balkan to the rest of Europe. Maybe in today's lands it would be like Turkey- Greece/Albania- Italy- Iberia etc etc

adamo
13-05-13, 12:27
Other opinions please lol, I think M269 moved from Central Asia through central Russia, into north-central Europe, into England, Germany France, Spain etc. wherever it is found today. I believe it bypassed the Balkans never passed there.

MOESAN
14-05-13, 13:01
Other opinions please lol, I think M269 moved from Central Asia through central Russia, into north-central Europe, into England, Germany France, Spain etc. wherever it is found today. I believe it bypassed the Balkans never passed there.

I wrote my thoughts about the same subject some time ago: I did not change too much my mind so I post it again: just my opinion for now before more ancient DNA

DNA-Y R1b first travels in Europe
Based on the work of Myre (I think because I only transfered the cyphers into a 'Open Office classeur' without note scrupulously the name, and others as Cruciani or Balaresque did some similar work) I made some suppositions (surely made by others yet) :

when looking at the maps of L23, L51 and L11 distributions, I am tempted to conclude :


L11 was born yet between Caucasus and Anatolia, so the same for L51 -

a Northern way from Caucasus could have send L23 to Russia and Ukraina : the absence or presence of L51 or/and L11 can have two sources : the mutation was new (weak %s of R1b) and died on the way, or the few people that took this way had not it (same reason : weak %s) – I think the few Y-R1b we find today in Karelia are from these pioneers -

a Western way went over the Bosphore to Balkans and Greece, the most of the R1b's going along the Danau river – without any proof, only a bet, I think thoses ones had L51 and L11, at weak %s too -

as very too often, more than a possibility stand in front of us : the Danau river could have seen R1b coming from Anatolia as well as from Moldavia-Western Ukraina (going along the Black Sea shores, after having left others going northwards)!

The bulk of the Y-R1b that took foot in the Western Balkans lost there their L51/L11 or they had left them already before – they was not numerous and the % of L51/L11 was very tiny -

the few people that reached Central Europe (Hungaria, Slovakia, Czechia) with L51/L11 surely was a bit more numerous : maybe P312 and U106 found birth there ?

I see no direct link between Poland and Estonia, on one side, and Karelia, Bielo-Russia or Northern Russia on another side – I think the first Y-R1b that reached Southern Sweden, Denmark and Northern Germany, maybe Estonia (uneasy to date the coming of U106 in Estonia without deeper study) was coming from South-West Poland and previously from Czechia through Moravia ; they was surely rich for U-106 -

Westwards the progression kept ahead into Southern Germany and Switzerland, and then into East-Southern France and Northern Italy (the %s don't push me to think they passed by present day Slovenia and Venetia) – surely richer for P312 -

a two choices quiz now : Iberia was reached by France or by Sea, from Southern Italy ?Valencia (Levante) seam having been rich for L51/L11 too and South Italy is reacher in internal % L23 and L11 than North Italy even if it is poorer for L51(?!?) - the Creta richness is too a confusing thing – is a pity this study give no data for Cataluña by instance – doubful situation ! But I prefer give the first place to travel by land from South-Eastern France to Iberia for now... - the big richness of Southern Italy for L23 is easy to explain by Greeks colonization – Creta is still a mistery, for the richest region of the island today about Y-R1b is in a considered 'archaïc' region of inland South-East... perhaps the study didn't focalize on these local R1b ? - someones spoke about Italian (Venitian) late influence -

the less « ancestral » Y-R1b according to these facts seam being Western Iberia and Northern Iberia and the Netherlands -

some lands as Russia, Bielo-Russia, Ukraina, Croatia, Slovenia, Romania, appear to me as having received re-introduction of more recent donwstreams of Y-R1b (U106, P312 and descendants) – surely a « va-et-vient » occurred in more northern Central Europe (Danau) but there Y-R1b never disappeared and then produced its own descendants – in the Western Balkans and parts of Greece, Caucasus, Anatolia, Y-R1b vegetated until today -

the big difficulty is to date these evenments : here only appear (if I'm not too wrong) the paths and a possible relative (internal) chronologic order, no datations : the way along the Danau river could have been long enough or very short, even if we can imagine a demographic explosion a) in Central Europe – b) in the Western Alps – what is very evident is a rupture between West and East and a very impressive bottleneck in South-Eastern Europe, I think -
What I see here is the quasi impossibility for these occidental Y-R1b to be the result of a huge amount of tribes that should be numerous already before leaving the western shores of the Black Sea or the the Danau delta... I cannot figure it out ! And I don't exclude totally the possibility that some P312 (not all of them) could have navigated from the Adriatic Sea to S-W Europe...Maybe some future addition of new surveys will change my thought -
I believe that :

when speaking about small populations, by the action of hazard, the new mutated SNPs can disappear quickly (« sur-place » figure : the older SNPs survives), and that in a bigger population, with time, older SNP disappear slowly, and new SNPs can survive, giving way to a small geographic almost familial set of this bigger population to magnifiy the %s of one of its new SNPs when leaving the bulk of the population (it is the famous and sometimes too used 'wave of 'advance?) -
Now, what archeological, historical data can help to put dates for that ? Someone evoques a Neolithic possibility, or a late Mesolithic lost among Neolithic times) – I admit the male elite bias for Y chromosome, but if at bronze Age, it obliged us to figure out a small tribe of intrepid male warriors subjuging huge populations of affraid wives on their road, and upon very more numerous invaded populations: no too easy -

on an other side if P312 was born in Central Danau and around, it could have given birth to well separate downstreams of itself, some going by land, other by sea (Mediterranea) ???

MOESAN
19-05-13, 13:02
I wrote my thoughts about the same subject some time ago: I did not change too much my mind so I post it again: just my opinion for now before more ancient DNA

DNA-Y R1b first travels in Europe
Based on the work of Myre (I think because I only transfered the cyphers into a 'Open Office classeur' without note scrupulously the name, and others as Cruciani or Balaresque did some similar work) I made some suppositions (surely made by others yet) :


[ --- ]

on an other side if P312 was born in Central Danau and around, it could have given birth to well separate downstreams of itself, some going by land, other by sea (Mediterranea) ???

pleasant: I answer myself!
a new thought came across my mind:
the present of 'gedrosia' elements among "Celts", N-Europeans ("germanic") and Basques along with a possible northern route to W-Europe for a part of Y-R1b + the possibility of a basquelike language in Scandinavia before satem I-E and finnic could explain the remaining basque language among I-E languages - no miracle!
the more rare S-E Europe R1b from Anatolia (or less evident from N-coasts of Black Sea) send relatively lately I-E languages in the Danau bassin AND indo-europeanized older R1b basquelike speaking (older in Europe, NOT on the family "tree") in central Europe - that could explain the all discrepancy we find about R1b SNPs distribution and density and languages problems???...

MOESAN
24-05-13, 23:18
&:'evenment's: sorry: 'events'!
Seemingly, some Y-R1b SNPs of global Western distributions have been found in the more archaïc populations of E-Creta, in the highlands parts and not in the plains towns, supposedly, and as me (only now!) people having done a survey about this Lassithi region think that thiese R1b SNPs are not the result of a venitian colonization: question for us: ? a) so, the "modern" western SNPs were yet present when the anatolian-middle-eastern R1b reached SE Europe ? >< ? b) these "modern" R1b SNPs are a back flood of I-Eans or I-Eanized people of central Europe? At what time? prehellenic or hellenic? had these highlands ("plateau" or "high plain" in fact) some mineral strategic importance at one time: metal presence can account (as the Harz region in Sachsen and the 'metallic mounds' in N-Bohemia...)??? my brain motor is broken down just now, wait and see!

MOESAN
24-05-13, 23:25
I red something newly on Dienekes blog, notonly about cultural influences of Uruk upon Caucasus population, but also about genetic (mt?) influences on the same side, too - I 'll read it again to make my opinion - but I red too another survey about some dental traits found among ancient Armenians and (at less level) among Steppic people supposed to be ancestors of I-Es: for now I see better Y-J2 associated with Uruk and Y-R1b associated with Armenians (ancient ones!) - more a S-Caspian to E then N Caspian route > Steppes for I-Es - but we can imagine the two routes no??? E-Caspian and Anatolia > Europe

adamo
24-05-13, 23:28
The ancient Urartians Armenians where likely J2 with a non-European R1b substratum on top of the former. Even J1 can be found in some 5-10% of Armenians.

Icebreaker
29-12-13, 04:56
A very interesting debate.

I think r1b is originally from central asia.

matbir
29-12-13, 23:37
Up till now only entrance by Anatolia – Balkans road has scientific background. Myres et al. (2010) (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/full/ejhg2010146a.html) estimated coalescent time for:
M269 10270+-1680 YBP
M412/L51 8870+-1708 YBP
S116 8630+-1529 YBP
U106 8742+-1551 YBP

And stated:
“The initial arrival of farmers from Southwest Asia to the present-day Greece occurred ca 9000 years BP.38 Outside of Southeast Europe, two episodes of early farming are attested archeologically.39 The first involved a maritime colonization of Crete ca 9000 years BP and Southern Italy ca 8000 years BP and subsequently spread to coastal Mediterranean France and Spain, as exemplified by impressed/cardial pottery. The second involved a migration to Central Europe, from Hungary to France, characterized by LBK (ca 7500 years BP). Within a 3k-year period, the agricultural economy spread across Europe, terminating in Britain and Scandinavia ~6000 years BP.39
This study has evaluated the spatial and temporal distributions of sub-clades of Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b-M269 in Europe, the Near East, the Circum-Uralic region and the Caucasus, revealing the major M412-defined phylogenetic dichotomy between the Central/Western Europe and more easterly distributed representatives (Figure 1e and f, respectively). In addition, several additional sub-haplogroup varieties, especially those in Central and Western Europe, display patterns with geographic locality (Figure 1g–o) and clinality (Supplementary Figure 1). The enhanced resolution of M412-related lineages permits a finer-grained view of the proposal that R1b-M269 coincides with the arrival and spread of farming into Europe. A recent analysis of 9 Y-STR loci associated with 840 R1b chromosomes resolved just to the level of M269 concluded that all such chromosomes in Europe reflect a recent genetic heritage that was uniformly introduced by exogenous farmers migrating from Western Anatolia.23 Our highresolution SNP genotype results show that the majority of Central and Western European haplogroups relate to common M412 founders whose sub-clades display phylogeographic and temporal patterns consistent with allele surfing at the periphery of expansions.40,41
Opportunities for the establishment of new varieties on a regional basis would be enhanced if preexisting population densities were not excessive. Estimates of population densities in the early Neolithic suggest that they were low, 0.6 per square kilometer.42 Such low population densities would have helped to promote founder effects such as those seen for the more prominent L11-related, S116 (Figure 1j) and U106 (Figure 1i) components and their respective sub-haplogroups. This is shown in part as the inversely related decreasing expansion times of S116-related haplogroups with increased distance from high-diversity areas coincident with the establishment of the early Danubian Neolithic LBK horizon in Europe (Figure 2a and b).”

Any other theories need scientific evidence to contradict Myres findings. But three years has past from that publication, and so what new do we have in this topic?

MOESAN
04-01-14, 00:01
to matbir
I'm late tonight and have no time to get back on this survey - but the Myres work was criticized in details by Busby, concerning the regional variances of Y-R1b and the "heterogneous" sampling, for Ireland and Turkey by instance - to be direct, I have no idea of the first place of departure of Y-R1b who began Western European forthe most, but I think yet a northern caspian way is the more evident for the travel of the most of them - and we have to explain the paucity of late R1b SNPs in S-E Europe (except the lands colonized lately by La Tene Celts): there Y-R1b is like a "dead branch" - we can imagine some later events partly erasing more ancient distributions but the overwhelming domination of Y-R1b among Basques and Atlantic-celtic populations compared to other real or supposed Anatolian-Caucasian-Near-Eastern Y-HGs is hard to explain (but plagues and selection?!?) if they were neolithical peasants...
or neolithical southeastern waves of people completely independant one form the other???

Sile
04-01-14, 00:41
to matbir
I'm late tonight and have no time to get back on this survey - but the Myres work was criticized in details by Busby, concerning the regional variances of Y-R1b and the "heterogneous" sampling, for Ireland and Turkey by instance - to be direct, I have no idea of the first place of departure of Y-R1b who began Western European forthe most, but I think yet a northern caspian way is the more evident for the travel of the most of them - and we have to explain the paucity of late R1b SNPs in S-E Europe (except the lands colonized lately by La Tene Celts): there Y-R1b is like a "dead branch" - we can imagine some later events partly erasing more ancient distributions but the overwhelming domination of Y-R1b among Basques and Atlantic-celtic populations compared to other real or supposed Anatolian-Caucasian-Near-Eastern Y-HGs is hard to explain (but plagues and selection?!?) if they were neolithical peasants...
or neolithical southeastern waves of people completely independant one form the other???

Mr. hammer states - south caucasus, then anatolia, then Bulgaria, then Hungary, then east Germany and Central Germany, then Italy etc etc
R1b fans out basically from central germany ( must have been as the numbers swelled after a long settlement)

Aberdeen
04-01-14, 02:40
Did R1b take the central Asian route into Europe or did it enter into Europe from Anatolia to Balkans route? This is a debate

My guess - from Anatolia to the Balkans and into central Europe as well as along the Mediterranean during the Neolithic but also through central Asia to Europe during the Bronze Age. It doesn't have to be a case of choosing one over the other.

Alexandros
04-01-14, 09:05
Can the people who suggest that R1b did not pass through the Eastern Mediterranean/Anatolia/Balkans explain the 30% prevalence of R1b among Armenians? Also, what about the 17% prevalence among Cretans? The argument of relatively recent back-migration from western Europe into these regions does not hold, as these populations (i.e Armenians, Cretans) wold have had very large proportions of western European autosomal admixture. Based on the autosomal data available so far, they do not!

Maciamo
04-01-14, 10:10
Can the people who suggest that R1b did not pass through the Eastern Mediterranean/Anatolia/Balkans explain the 30% prevalence of R1b among Armenians? Also, what about the 17% prevalence among Cretans? The argument of relatively recent back-migration from western Europe into these regions does not hold, as these populations (i.e Armenians, Cretans) wold have had very large proportions of western European autosomal admixture. Based on the autosomal data available so far, they do not!

Here is your answer for the Armenians (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28916-The-Indo-European-migrations-to-Armenia).

For a general explanation of how R1b got into the Balkans and back to Anatolia, check this (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#Greco-Anatolian).

matbir
04-01-14, 22:13
to matbir
I'm late tonight and have no time to get back on this survey - but the Myres work was criticized in details by Busby, concerning the regional variances of Y-R1b and the "heterogneous" sampling, for Ireland and Turkey by instance - to be direct, I have no idea of the first place of departure of Y-R1b who began Western European forthe most, but I think yet a northern caspian way is the more evident for the travel of the most of them - and we have to explain the paucity of late R1b SNPs in S-E Europe (except the lands colonized lately by La Tene Celts): there Y-R1b is like a "dead branch" - we can imagine some later events partly erasing more ancient distributions but the overwhelming domination of Y-R1b among Basques and Atlantic-celtic populations compared to other real or supposed Anatolian-Caucasian-Near-Eastern Y-HGs is hard to explain (but plagues and selection?!?) if they were neolithical peasants...
or neolithical southeastern waves of people completely independant one form the other???
There are late R1b SNPs in Balkans but they are not classified (L23* and M269*) yet.
If spread of agriculture wasn’t major population movement but diffusion then R1b making its way along Danube could have lost companion of other Anatolian haplogroups that is how bottleneck works. But Busby’s finding seems to contradict spread of L11 along with agriculture.

Let’s see Busby et al. (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.abstract):

Part of section 4.Discussion – criticism of age estimation methods:
“Dating of Y chromosome lineages is notoriously controversial [25,41–44], the major issue being that the choice of STR mutation rate can lead to age estimates that differ by a factor of three (i.e. the evolutionary [25] versus observed (genealogical) mutation rates [33,45]). Interestingly, despite the fact that Myres et al. and Balaresque used different STR mutation rates and dating approaches, their TMRCA estimates overlap: 8590–11 950 years using a mutation rate of 6.9 * 10-4 per generation, and 4577–9063 years using an average mutation rate of 2.3 * 10-3, respectively. Separately, Morelli calculated the TMRCA based only on Sardinian and Anatolian chromosomes, and estimated the RM269 lineage to have originated 25 000–80 700 years ago) [22], based on the same evolutionary mutation rate [25,41] as Myres et al.”

“5. CONCLUSION
The distributions of the main R-S127 sub-haplogroups, R-S21, R-S145 and R-S28, show markedly localized concentrations (figure 3). If the R-M269 lineage is more recent in origin than the Neolithic expansion, then its current distribution would have to be the result of major population movements occurring since that origin. For this haplogroup to be so ubiquitous, the population carrying R-S127 would have displaced most of the populations present in western Europe after the Neolithic agricultural transition. Alternatively, if R-S127 originated prior to the Neolithic wave of expansion, then either it was already present in most of Europe before the expansion, or the mutation occurred in the east, and was spread before or after the expansion, in which case we would expect higher diversity in the east closer to the origins of agriculture, which is not what we observe. The maps of R-S127 sub-haplogroup frequencies for R-S21, R-S145 and R-S28 show radial distributions from specific European locations (figure 3). These centres have high absolute frequencies: R-S21 has a frequency of 44 per cent in Friesland, and RS28 reaches 25 per cent in the Alps; and in the populations where they are at the highest frequency, the vast majority of R-S127 belong to that particular sublineage. For example, half of all R-M269 across southern Europe is R-S28-derived, and around 60 per cent of RM269 in Central Europe is R-S21-derived. At the subhaplogroup level, then, R-M269 is split into geographically localized pockets with individual R-M269 subhaplogroups dominating, suggesting that the frequency of R-M269 across Europe could be related to the growth of multiple, geographically specific sub-lineages that differ in different parts of Europe.
A recent analysis of radiocarbon dates of Neolithic sites across Europe [46] reveals that the spread of the Neolithic was by no means constant, and that several ‘centres of renewed expansion’ are visible across Europe, representing areas of colonization, three of which map intriguingly closely to the centres of the sub-haplogroups foci (electronic supplementary material, figure S3). Future work involving spatially explicit simulations, together with accurate measures of Y chromosome diversity, are needed to investigate how the current distribution of sub-haplogroups may have been produced. In this context, recent work by Sjo¨din & Franc¸ois [47] rejected a Palaeolithic dispersion for R1b-M269 using spatial simulations based on the dataset of Balaresque. Nevertheless, we note that additional work is still necessary as these authors were not aware of the limitation of the Balaresque dataset presented here, and did not fully explore the impact of the different molecular characteristics of the investigated loci on their analysis.
Age estimates based on sets of Y-STRs carefully selected to possess the attributes necessary for uncovering deep ancestry (for example, from the almost 200 recently characterized here [33]), and from whole Y chromosome sequence comparisons, will provide robust dates for this haplogroup in the future. For now, we can offer no date as to the age of R-M269 or R-S127, but believe that our STR analyses suggest the recent age estimates of R-M269 [20] and R-S116 [21] are likely to be younger than the true values, and the homogeneity of STR variance and distribution of sub-types across the continent are inconsistent with the hypothesis of the Neolithic diffusion of the R-M269 Y chromosome lineage.”


So if diversity of R1b does not increase in west - east direction that suggest longer presence of this haplogroup in western Europe then from Neolithic transition or recent mass movement, which probably never happened because the source population does not exist. I have put in bold part, which support Neolithic growth of R1b in Western Europe, here is link to supplementary material (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/suppl/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.DC1/rspb20111044supp1.pdf).



My guess - from Anatolia to the Balkans and into central Europe as well as along the Mediterranean during the Neolithic but also through central Asia to Europe during the Bronze Age. It doesn't have to be a case of choosing one over the other. But it is the case, because only one man who carried L23 had a son with L51 whose descendants populated Western Europe. There is possibility that some other parts of Europe could have been populated by Caucasian or Central Asian road, I am referring to Circum-Uralic region and Northeast Europe. There is a lot of L23* from Central Europe to Ural and Hindu Kush waiting for classification, new survey is needed to uncover homeland and migration roads of L23. My guess is Balkans, because the highest frequency of M269(xL23) is in Kosovo (7.9%), Serbia (4.4%) and Macedonia (5.1%), but Anatolia and Iran are also possible because of presence of both subclades and this is center of distribution of L23*.

MOESAN
09-01-14, 23:36
There are late R1b SNPs in Balkans but they are not classified (L23* and M269*) yet.
If spread of agriculture wasn’t major population movement but diffusion then R1b making its way along Danube could have lost companion of other Anatolian haplogroups that is how bottleneck works. But Busby’s finding seems to contradict spread of L11 along with agriculture.

Let’s see Busby et al. (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.abstract):

Part of section 4.Discussion – criticism of age estimation methods:
“Dating of Y chromosome lineages is notoriously controversial [25,41–44], the major issue being that the choice of STR mutation rate can lead to age estimates that differ by a factor of three (i.e. the evolutionary [25] versus observed (genealogical) mutation rates [33,45]). Interestingly, despite the fact that Myres et al. and Balaresque used different STR mutation rates and dating approaches, their TMRCA estimates overlap: 8590–11 950 years using a mutation rate of 6.9 * 10-4 per generation, and 4577–9063 years using an average mutation rate of 2.3 * 10-3, respectively. Separately, Morelli calculated the TMRCA based only on Sardinian and Anatolian chromosomes, and estimated the RM269 lineage to have originated 25 000–80 700 years ago) [22], based on the same evolutionary mutation rate [25,41] as Myres et al.”

“5. CONCLUSION
The distributions of the main R-S127 sub-haplogroups, R-S21, R-S145 and R-S28, show markedly localized concentrations (figure 3). If the R-M269 lineage is more recent in origin than the Neolithic expansion, then its current distribution would have to be the result of major population movements occurring since that origin. For this haplogroup to be so ubiquitous, the population carrying R-S127 would have displaced most of the populations present in western Europe after the Neolithic agricultural transition. Alternatively, if R-S127 originated prior to the Neolithic wave of expansion, then either it was already present in most of Europe before the expansion, or the mutation occurred in the east, and was spread before or after the expansion, in which case we would expect higher diversity in the east closer to the origins of agriculture, which is not what we observe. The maps of R-S127 sub-haplogroup frequencies for R-S21, R-S145 and R-S28 show radial distributions from specific European locations (figure 3). These centres have high absolute frequencies: R-S21 has a frequency of 44 per cent in Friesland, and RS28 reaches 25 per cent in the Alps; and in the populations where they are at the highest frequency, the vast majority of R-S127 belong to that particular sublineage. For example, half of all R-M269 across southern Europe is R-S28-derived, and around 60 per cent of RM269 in Central Europe is R-S21-derived. At the subhaplogroup level, then, R-M269 is split into geographically localized pockets with individual R-M269 subhaplogroups dominating, suggesting that the frequency of R-M269 across Europe could be related to the growth of multiple, geographically specific sub-lineages that differ in different parts of Europe.
A recent analysis of radiocarbon dates of Neolithic sites across Europe [46] reveals that the spread of the Neolithic was by no means constant, and that several ‘centres of renewed expansion’ are visible across Europe, representing areas of colonization, three of which map intriguingly closely to the centres of the sub-haplogroups foci (electronic supplementary material, figure S3). Future work involving spatially explicit simulations, together with accurate measures of Y chromosome diversity, are needed to investigate how the current distribution of sub-haplogroups may have been produced. In this context, recent work by Sjo¨din & Franc¸ois [47] rejected a Palaeolithic dispersion for R1b-M269 using spatial simulations based on the dataset of Balaresque. Nevertheless, we note that additional work is still necessary as these authors were not aware of the limitation of the Balaresque dataset presented here, and did not fully explore the impact of the different molecular characteristics of the investigated loci on their analysis.
Age estimates based on sets of Y-STRs carefully selected to possess the attributes necessary for uncovering deep ancestry (for example, from the almost 200 recently characterized here [33]), and from whole Y chromosome sequence comparisons, will provide robust dates for this haplogroup in the future. For now, we can offer no date as to the age of R-M269 or R-S127, but believe that our STR analyses suggest the recent age estimates of R-M269 [20] and R-S116 [21] are likely to be younger than the true values, and the homogeneity of STR variance and distribution of sub-types across the continent are inconsistent with the hypothesis of the Neolithic diffusion of the R-M269 Y chromosome lineage.”


So if diversity of R1b does not increase in west - east direction that suggest longer presence of this haplogroup in western Europe then from Neolithic transition or recent mass movement, which probably never happened because the source population does not exist. I have put in bold part, which support Neolithic growth of R1b in Western Europe, here is link to supplementary material (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/suppl/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.DC1/rspb20111044supp1.pdf).


But it is the case, because only one man who carried L23 had a son with L51 whose descendants populated Western Europe. There is possibility that some other parts of Europe could have been populated by Caucasian or Central Asian road, I am referring to Circum-Uralic region and Northeast Europe. There is a lot of L23* from Central Europe to Ural and Hindu Kush waiting to classification, new survey is needed to uncover homeland and migration roads of L23. My guess is Balkans, because the highest frequency of M269(xL23) is in Kosovo (7.9%), Serbia (4.4%) and Macedonia (5.1%), but Anatolia and Iran are also possible because of presence of both subclades and this is center of distribution of L23*.

your post is very interesting - thanks -
concerning source of a pack of downstream HG we are not obliged (even if sensible) to believe the newer ones are the descendants of the most numerous "mother" populations (upstream HGs) - the increase of mt-H at some stage of Neolithic is interesting - and a LATE WAVE OF MESOLITHICAL (non-neolithical, but almost as fleeing before them) population coming from East or South-East (more than a challenger for the place of origin from Ukraina to Levant) is evocated i Mediterranea by some ones, before a spread in Western Europe - I have not in mind all the details I need to go farther - it could confirm a two ways (at least) introgression of Y-R1b in Europe - I confess I'm still confused when I think in Y-R1b story and the basque language problem... some "middle" R1b-SNPs are found as well in Southern Italy, Spanish Valencia or Northern Europe!!! so...
nos vad deoc'h - good night

bicicleur
10-01-14, 00:39
R1b came from southern Siberia in 3 waves :

1 st wave V88 and M335 via central Asia came south of the Caspian Sea and split there to the Levant/Anatolia

2 nd wave M73 and some M269 toke a more northern route - chasing mammoths (before they went extinct)

3 rd wave M269 and L23 arrived at the Pontic steppe, later they were joined by R1a : the Proto-Indo-Europeans

Z2103 is the Anatolina branch ( via the Balkans )

after Z2103 L11 came to the Balkans , P312 and S21 went further via Central Europe into Western Europe

martiko
19-01-14, 21:44
pleasant: I answer myself!
a new thought came across my mind:
the present of 'gedrosia' elements among "Celts", N-Europeans ("germanic") and Basques along with a possible northern route to W-Europe for a part of Y-R1b + the possibility of a basquelike language in Scandinavia before satem I-E and finnic could explain the remaining basque language among I-E languages - no miracle!
the more rare S-E Europe R1b from Anatolia (or less evident from N-coasts of Black Sea) send relatively lately I-E languages in the Danau bassin AND indo-europeanized older R1b basquelike speaking (older in Europe, NOT on the family "tree") in central Europe - that could explain the all discrepancy we find about R1b SNPs distribution and density and languages problems???...
the linguists today are much more educated than those of the 19th century and they do not any more dare to classify Basque, because this language is not either satem or centum, but IE it is can be, today computer programs work on this delicate subject.
Too much error, enormity being hurled by alleged people taught in subject.

Aberdeen
19-01-14, 22:26
the linguists today are much more educated than those of the 19th century and they do not any more dare to classify Basque, because this language is not either satem or centum, but IE it is can be, today computer programs work on this delicate subject.
Too much error, enormity being hurled by alleged people taught in subject.

Any of the books and articles I've read about Basque by modern authors who claim to know something about linguistics are very clear in describing Basque as a language isolate that is not related to the IE body of languages. That opinion is apparently based not only on vocabulary but on the fact that Basque takes a very different approach to language structure, particularly with respect to the way verbs are structured and used.

martiko
20-01-14, 17:29
therefore you should not read any article but only the serious articles, verbs in Basque are systematically used with an infinitive form accompagne of an auxiliaire and ergative. This is also case of ancient language IE.
Nowadays it is risked to maintain that Basque is or is not a language IE.
The linguists said that it faillait 3000 years in a language so that it is very hard transformed, the bulk is to know the age of the most ancient language at the origin of the group IE, therefore if they are held in reasoning premiiers IE is less than 3000 years old? By knowing that both languages would have diverged chacunes during 3000 years they succeed in multiplying linguistic distance by two.

Nothing makes it on topic cannot be asserted, and I am surprised to see so many people writing affirmations, while the best of everything linguist asserts nothing and to name them, no language can be nowadays compare in Basque but it is well necessary to admit that the languages which get closer most languages IE are.
My purpose is not to say that Basque is IE but of resting a question having accepted poor answers, I wait for an answer to the realistic or logical minimun.

Greying Wanderer
21-01-14, 21:06
My opinion


R1b originally along the west coast of the Black Sea, displaced by the southward expansion down into the Balkans of the related but distinct R1a steppe population. Some become part of the IE, some go west up the Danube to become the central European Bell Beakers and some - not necessarily large numbers - take the maritime route. Whether by the Danube-Italy route or the maritime route they eventually end up in Iberia and spread from there along the Atlantic coast all the way to Denmark. They then expand from the west to east both as Bell Beaker (south clade) and Funnelbeaker (north clade) just before the slower northern route IE expansion into Europe arrives (Corded Ware).


I can't post links but if you check the expansion of Funnelbeaker (starting around Denmark) and the map of lactose tolerance you can see a strong correlation between Funnelbeaker and lactose tolerance which makes me think that apart from metallurgy the R1b expansion was also connected to improved cattle breeds.

martiko
21-01-14, 23:28
My opinion


R1b originally along the west coast of the Black Sea, displaced by the southward expansion down into the Balkans of the related but distinct R1a steppe population. Some become part of the IE, some go west up the Danube to become the central European Bell Beakers and some - not necessarily large numbers - take the maritime route. Whether by the Danube-Italy route or the maritime route they eventually end up in Iberia and spread from there along the Atlantic coast all the way to Denmark. They then expand from the west to east both as Bell Beaker (south clade) and Funnelbeaker (north clade) just before the slower northern route IE expansion into Europe arrives (Corded Ware).


I can't post links but if you check the expansion of Funnelbeaker (starting around Denmark) and the map of lactose tolerance you can see a strong correlation between Funnelbeaker and lactose tolerance which makes me think that apart from metallurgy the R1b expansion was also connected to improved cattle breeds.

unlikely for boat and tolerance lactose proves it because how to load herds of cattle and equine on small boat of epoch. Also Celtic iberian M65 did not exist but it was probably M412 or L11.
The second theory seems much more probable because they find the peaks of tolerance along Atlantic coast and of the North Sea lactose, which is for every population Western Europe feature.6202

Greying Wanderer
21-01-14, 23:38
unlikely for boat and tolerance lactose proves it because how to load herds of cattle and equine on small boat of epoch. Also Celtic iberian M65 did not exist but it was probably M412 or L11.
The second theory seems much more probable because they find the peaks of tolerance along Atlantic coast and of the North Sea lactose, which is for every population Western Europe feature.6202

Yes, I don't think they took the cattle with them. I think they were displaced by the steppe IE's southern expansion into the Balkans and went Danube-Italy-Iberia-Atlantic Coast-Denmark. I think they developed the better cattle breeds after they had settled along the Atlantic coast.

The main point though is people always seem to leave out the Funnelbeakers who expanded from the Atlantic coast just prior to the arrival of the steppe IE from the east. If R1b did expand from the Atlantic coast it was Bell Beakers (south) and Funnelbeakers (north) and not just Bell Beakers.

martiko
22-01-14, 00:52
Yes, I don't think they took the cattle with them. I think they were displaced by the steppe IE's southern expansion into the Balkans and went Danube-Italy-Iberia-Atlantic Coast-Denmark. I think they developed the better cattle breeds after they had settled along the Atlantic coast.

The main point though is people always seem to leave out the Funnelbeakers who expanded from the Atlantic coast just prior to the arrival of the steppe IE from the east. If R1b did expand from the Atlantic coast it was Bell Beakers (south) and Funnelbeakers (north) and not just Bell Beakers.

you are not right, because the genetic European analysis of the horses and cows points out origin Central Asia and also dogs' breed found in Basque country, Irland are of Siberian origin. The horses bashkir are of the same descendants as the Irish, Basque, Icelandic horses and almost all European typical breeds. Alone the sheep and nanny goats are originally from Europe or from the Caucasus. R1b would have had a lot of problems to transport the stock, hay, drinking water as well as themselves on boats. The only possibility is to follow the banks of the big rivers and on regions rich in pasture and Danube and Rhin for example would be possible.

Therefore you can forget the first hypothesis with boats because it is unachievable for epoch.

Greying Wanderer
22-01-14, 01:22
you are not right, because the genetic European analysis of the horses and cows points out origin Central Asia and also dogs' breed found in Basque country, Irland are of Siberian origin. The horses bashkir are of the same descendants as the Irish, Basque, Icelandic horses and almost all European typical breeds. Alone the sheep and nanny goats are originally from Europe or from the Caucasus. R1b would have had a lot of problems to transport the stock, hay, drinking water as well as themselves on boats. The only possibility is to follow the banks of the big rivers and on regions rich in pasture and Danube and Rhin for example would be possible.

Therefore you can forget the first hypothesis with boats because it is unachievable for epoch.

I'll start at the beginning. I can't link images but anyone can check if they want.

If you look at the expansion of Funnelbeaker (west to east from somewhere around Denmark) and at the later expansion of Corded Ware (east to west) you can see they almost completely overlap with Corded Ware (IE R1a) coming out of the Unetice culture and seemingly over-running most of the Funnelbeaker territory.

However if you look at the R1a and R1b distribution in the area of Corded Ware expansion what do you see? They are practically mirrored with the bulk of R1b to the west and the bulk of R1A to the east of the mid-point.

I think this clearly shows that R1b expanded from west to east with the Funnelbeaker culture.

So the question becomes how did R1b get there?

Tabaccus Maximus
22-01-14, 03:19
Old thread, but I couldn't resist.


Here's my take... (which I have posted in other areas of this forum at different times)


1. R1b lingered in the Kazakhstani grasslands from 18-11 ybp. SPECIFICALLY, the Kazakhstani grassland and NO OTHER.

2. Within this grassland are the four corners of R1b's ancient domain.
a) NW - Bashkirostan (M269 + M73)
b) NE - The Yenesian Valley (Mal'ta and Afontova oldest R*)
c) SE - Tarim Basin (M269 + M73)
d) SW - Turkmenistan (M269 wonderland)

*It is within this region in which the generations of overhunting Mammoth and Asian Bison (Buffalo) led to a realization for the need of basic cattle management techniques and controlled breeding programs.
This would have involved culling herds of weak traits and non-producing bulls. Large bulls (with large balls - not kidding) would purposefully have been left alone.
Cows with large utters, twins, birthing ease, calf growth, good marbling and muscle growth would have been left on the field when possible. Early R1b peoples recognized these beneficial traits and attempted to maintain sustainable wild herds.

They expanded into like terrain: The plains of Anatolia (M269), Iran (M269 + R2) and Eastern Siberia (M73).


>R1b probably made it's first entry into the Balkans and Ukraine during the Pottery Neolithic or soon after, however, I suspect the question asks when R1b entered Western Europe?

martiko
22-01-14, 23:18
basin of Volga and Danube seem royal ways for stockbreeders accompanied with their herds and their good but it is not made in the space of two days.

Ziober
02-04-14, 00:19
you are not right, because the genetic European analysis of the horses and cows points out origin Central Asia and also dogs' breed found in Basque country, Irland are of Siberian origin. The horses bashkir are of the same descendants as the Irish, Basque, Icelandic horses and almost all European typical breeds. Alone the sheep and nanny goats are originally from Europe or from the Caucasus. R1b would have had a lot of problems to transport the stock, hay, drinking water as well as themselves on boats. The only possibility is to follow the banks of the big rivers and on regions rich in pasture and Danube and Rhin for example would be possible.

Therefore you can forget the first hypothesis with boats because it is unachievable for epoch.
I disagree with you about Iberian horses and domestication: http://www.horseshowcentral.com/horse_breeds/iberian_horse/333/1 http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0018194 paintings showing ancient independent domestication of horse in Iberia: http://www.soscaballolosino.com/Entrada-razasautoctonas/Entrada%20caballos/Pinturas%20ecuestres.htm