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Clive Whelan
17-05-13, 15:12
Hi list

Please excuse the ignorance of a DNA newbie!

I recently had my Y chromosome tested, and discovered that it is of I1 haplogroup. Now I know broadly what that means, but I haven't the faintest idea what the list of 16 Y STRs implies. Do/can these narrow the group down, or are they simply the definition of I1 itself? If this is a pdq, please just direct me to the correct resource

Now further it came as something of a shock to find that my clan ( Whalen/O'Faolain) had no members in I1, in fact substantially in R1b. I'm assuming that this implies an NPE sometime in the past 1000 odd years and that my original male ancestor was a Viking?

Any help appreciated.


Regards

Clive

inver2b1
17-05-13, 17:31
A good analogy I heard for STR's is that is you think of the snp as the branch then STR's are the leafs. STR's can show different varieties of SNP's and are useful for determining relatedness on a more recent basis.
To your original question I1 is generally associated with Germanic groups. Where did you do your test? Around 37 STR's would be better to determine matches with someone else.
Ancestry.com allows you to enter your STR markers and thatmay help you see if you match with anyone else' also try the website ysearch and enter your markers.

adamo
17-05-13, 18:16
I1 is quite rare in Ireland, R1b dominates it at 80% or so of Irish men. 5% are Scandinavian I1a which means you are a rarity in your country.

Clive Whelan
17-05-13, 19:51
Thanks a lot for the replies.

Seems I need to get more markers to narrow the I1 down to I1a and I will look at the sites recommended. I do have fair hair and blue eyes.

My test was done by Nimble diagnostics which I had to " pick with a pin ". Any other suggestions are welcome of course.

Clearly the more markers the better, although I have no interest in comparing to any other individual, in fact I am not acquainted with anybody who might be related. I was actually born in Wales, as was my father , and the emigrant was my grandfather from North Dublin around the turn of the last century. Sadly I am the only living male in the family, so confirmation will be very difficult

adamo
17-05-13, 20:10
England though ( excluding wales and Scotland) has 15-20% I1. But Ireland has 5% I1, wales has about 5%, Scotland has more like 10%, England has 15-20% national average but up to 33% in certain regions of the Danelaw particularly (south-eastern England). R1b dominates Irish men and at an astonishingly high frequency, I1 is a definite rarity as are any other haplogroups other than R1b pretty much. (In Irish men)

inver2b1
17-05-13, 21:57
Thanks a lot for the replies.

Seems I need to get more markers to narrow the I1 down to I1a and I will look at the sites recommended. I do have fair hair and blue eyes.

My test was done by Nimble diagnostics which I had to " pick with a pin ". Any other suggestions are welcome of course.

Clearly the more markers the better, although I have no interest in comparing to any other individual, in fact I am not acquainted with anybody who might be related. I was actually born in Wales, as was my father , and the emigrant was my grandfather from North Dublin around the turn of the last century. Sadly I am the only living male in the family, so confirmation will be very difficult

Family Tree DNA would be the best place to go for another commercial test, you missed their introductory 12 marker test a while ago.
Try to get your markers on to ysearch first and you might get a vague idea if you match other surnames.
It really depends what kind of ancestry information you are looking for, Y Haplogroup tests are very narrow as you are looking at one line out of many. There is also your maternal lineage and off shoot female lineages from your direct male line you will be over looking, to pick up ancestry from all lineages I would recommend a 23andme test.

Below is a link to the Ireland Y DNA project, if you scroll down the page you will see the results and surnames they have with I1. As you can see there is a mix of what you would associate with gaelic and non gaelic.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/IrelandHeritage/default.aspx?section=ysnp

nordicwarbler
17-05-13, 22:26
Welcome to the site newbie. Your hg. I1 status with links to Dublin do indicate Viking lineage... probably Danish. Although a tie to Norway would also be possible.

I would think your next step would be to trace your SNP's. Maybe start with L-22 or Z-58 and then work downstream from your first hit.

Jackson
18-05-13, 17:47
In reality it could be Norwegian, Danish, Norman or English. If it was Viking, it was more likely Norwegian given that their presence is traditionally thought to have been much heavier around the Irish sea, while the Danish presence was much heaver in eastern England.

I would place my bets on it being Norwegian, but it could be later as well. Probably FTDNA is the best way to go, you might get lucky with a close y-line match that could tell you about the NPE if it's more recent, or might be able to distinguish where it is more likely Norwegian or Danish/English perhaps.

Actually from what i remember there is a Whalen/Whelan quite into genetic genaeology on another forum, he is R1b-L21 but i might ask him if he knows of anything that might be useful for you.

Clive Whelan
19-05-13, 13:04
Thanks again everyone.

I did try to get my results onto ysearch, but after wrestling with the entry form and registration details, the system would not let me go any further ( possibly traffic jams Saturday ), just resulting in a " site not available" message .

I found on Eupedia that DYS385b=15 probably indicates the Ultra Norse group ( Norway and Iceland ), and my value is exactly that. However that site also states that GATA H4 >10 indicates the Wesh group, and although I am in Wales, my grandfather only came to Cardiff in 1896. There are no doubts of an NPE in that era, so it must be wrong.

I am indeed also following my maternal line which is said to be of haplogroup H5 descended from Helena. The paper trail indicates exclusively English origins from Gloucestershire and Somerset ( Dickman, Ocock )

As regards researching SNPs, I do understand, but have no idea where to start. Nimble diagnostics simply provided the info. under discussion, with very little background. It my well be that my picking with a pin has nor produced the hoped for information. I shall follow up a ll the suggested leads of course.


Clive

nordicwarbler
20-05-13, 01:08
Jackson, I thought Dublin was quasi-founded by the Danish Vikings?... something about the invaders from Norway were called the fair and the Danish were called the black (Dubh).

spruithean
21-05-13, 01:09
Jackson, I thought Dublin was quasi-founded by the Danish Vikings?... something about the invaders from Norway were called the fair and the Danish were called the black (Dubh).

Dublin was "founded" by Scandinavians now whether they were Danes or Norwegians is a different discussion. One of Dublin's gaelic names is Dubh Linn (it's original pronunciation can be seen in modern Manx as "Divlyn") which means "Black Pool". However an alternate Gaelic name is Baile Átha Cliath when the Normans invaded they seemingly booted out the Scandinavians living in the Dublin area, replacing them eventually "The Pale" formed and quite a lot of people from outside of Ireland arrived there I would imagine...

We can't forget the Hiberno-Normans soon became more Irish than the Irish themselves! I would think I1 in Ireland could either have a source in Scandinavians or Cambro/Anglo-Norman settlers. Or possibly later migrants?

nordicwarbler
21-05-13, 10:19
Thanks for the comment Spruithean. I hadn't considered the Norman settler aspect, but that could also be a possible source.

hope
21-05-13, 13:50
Dublin was "founded" by Scandinavians now whether they were Danes or Norwegians is a different discussion. One of Dublin's gaelic names is Dubh Linn (it's original pronunciation can be seen in modern Manx as "Divlyn") which means "Black Pool". However an alternate Gaelic name is Baile Átha Cliath when the Normans invaded they seemingly booted out the Scandinavians living in the Dublin area, replacing them eventually "The Pale" formed and quite a lot of people from outside of Ireland arrived there I would imagine...

We can't forget the Hiberno-Normans soon became more Irish than the Irish themselves! I would think I1 in Ireland could either have a source in Scandinavians or Cambro/Anglo-Norman settlers. Or possibly later migrants?



I think primarily the "Norwegians" were launching attacks in Ireland and at some point they may have established a longphort .. onshore settlement.
However it appears it was the Danish who established permanent settlement at Dublin. It seems it was called Dyflin by the Norse, from the Irish Dubh..black.
Áth Cliath was a Gaelic settlement.. [ ford of hurdles or the town of hurdled fords].. nearer to the River Poodle [ although it may have been founded by the vikings], it was incorporated into Dublin at a later point and the Irish call Dublin this even to-day.

hope
21-05-13, 13:57
Hi list

Please excuse the ignorance of a DNA newbie!

I recently had my Y chromosome tested, and discovered that it is of I1 haplogroup. Now I know broadly what that means, but I haven't the faintest idea what the list of 16 Y STRs implies. Do/can these narrow the group down, or are they simply the definition of I1 itself? If this is a pdq, please just direct me to the correct resource

Now further it came as something of a shock to find that my clan ( Whalen/O'Faolain) had no members in I1, in fact substantially in R1b. I'm assuming that this implies an NPE sometime in the past 1000 odd years and that my original male ancestor was a Viking?

Any help appreciated.


RegardsClive






Whelan or Ó Faoláin may have been connected to the Desi in Ireland [ vassal tribe]. Now what may be of interest to you is the Desi were assimilated into the Normans when they came into Ireland. So perhaps a link?

Grubbe
21-05-13, 18:59
Family Tree DNA would be the best place to go for another commercial test, you missed their introductory 12 marker test a while ago.


They now have the 12 marker test for a fixed price at $ 49. That's still very inexpencive. Then one can upgrade later on, when prices are low again.

inver2b1
21-05-13, 23:08
Whelan or Ó Faoláin may have been connected to the Desi in Ireland [ vassal tribe]. Now what may be of interest to you is the Desi were assimilated into the Normans when they came into Ireland. So perhaps a link?

Didn't they go on to form the Dal Cais with Brian Boru as the leader? He also used viking mercenaries.

hope
22-05-13, 00:35
Didn't they go on to form the Dal Cais with Brian Boru as the leader? He also used viking mercenaries.





Yes, you are correct inver2b1. There were a few Déisi groups..Déisi of Munster, Mide, Tara and the Northern Déisi.
The group went on to become the Dál gCais, who was indeed lead by Brian Boru. And yes, good catch..there were surely Scandinavians ..[ Vikings] in his group ...I believe I read there were recently converted Christian " Manx" Scandinavians and also men from Alba [ Scotland.]