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Balder
20-05-13, 02:35
Article posted recently in the most important German conservative newspaper. Die Welt.

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As UK Moves Toward EU Exit, Envisioning A New Northern European Union
http://worldcrunch.com/world-affairs/as-uk-moves-toward-eu-exit-envisioning-a-new-northern-european-union/europe-brussels-london-nato-union/c1s10941/


BERLIN - Europeans are in a virtual state of paralysis about the future, frozen by a fear that – were they to turn away from Brussels – the result would be a rise of reactionary nationalism.

Not surprisingly, these new chauvinisms are perfectly suited for some political agendas – on all sides of the ideological spectrum. Still, some thoughtful observers are beginning to flirt with the idea of moving away from Brussels, and weighing the new turns the Continent could take with an eventual exit of London from the EU, particularly in terms of the economic consequences for both Europe and the UK.

A decisive step on the part of the British could actually give new impetus, and new energy. Many countries that have perceived themselves as too small to act on their own could begin to see the constraints of collective debt and Brussels bureaucracy.

This renewed sense of possibility would in turn widen the horizons of British strategists. The UK's move would thus no longer be about the pros and cons of departure, but rather about seeking more suitable alliances.

Would the Dutch still feel the same way about the EU if there was no North-South divide anymore? How much better things would look in Flanders if the issue wasn’t Wallonia but a more viable Union... Scottish independence would also lose its escapist flavor because everybody from Belfast to Cardiff would be part of a new alliance of states.

A federation of northern countries – Iceland, Scandinavian nations, Belgium, the Netherlands, the British Isles, Ireland – would almost certainly entice the German states of Hamburg and Schleswig-Holstein, whose dowry would be the Kiel Canal. After all, Altona lived comfortably with Denmark for some 200 years.

And the idea that this would somehow be a return to a Teutonic past doesn’t hold water: in such a large alliance, the northern Germans would constitute a minority that none need fear. There are historical precedents – one thinks of the German citizens of the Hansa cities of Danzig, Elbing and Thorn, which in 1454, and then for nearly 350 years, linked up with the Polish Rzeczpospolita to protect themselves from the murderous attacks and plunder by fellow Germans, the Teutonic Knights.

Most Germans would wish the northern Germans well, follow the development with interest rather than the disparagement that often accompanies separatism, sensing how profoundly anti-chauvinistic their secession was. This would be a match for the nonchalance about the independence of Scotland, which is being left free to decide its own future.

A new world power?

Imagine: a territory of over 3.8 million square kilometers (1.5 million square miles), number four in terms of global economy, with 120 million inhabitants, ten languages but with nearly everyone able to understand English – a new and culturally rich space with guaranteed free trade inside its borders, and ever open to the world beyond.

As all members of this northern federation – with the exception of Sweden – are already NATO members, they would have the know-how to organize themselves as a military alliance as well, with British nuclear potential to back it up. Self-sufficient in terms of energy, with plenty of oil, gas, hydropower, shale gas, it could also play a role in reducing energy-related conflict.

The regime in Brussels would not be able to stave off its death throes for long after the creation of such a federation: minus Great Britain, the Netherlands, Flanders-Belgium, Denmark, Sweden, Finland and Hamburg/Schleswig-Holstein, it would lose some 7 billion euros a year.

The rebels could finance their trim joint bureaucracy with a fraction of what they saved and use the rest for what has become a bitter necessity – seeing to a secure future. Whoever stuck by Brussels would either be asking for even more money or – like Germany, for example – take its leave from further cost overload.

The result would be that, finally, the undemocratic hyper-apparatus that is Brussels would no longer have the financing it needs to continue.

Such a federation could also inspire others. Some like the southern Germans, Austrians, Swiss and northern Italians might forge their own federation. Countries excluded from all this would be left striving to achieve eligibility to the club. This could ultimately mean that a significant chunk of Europe teams up again – only this time not to be run by a moldy bureaucracy, but rather to become an alliance of free nations.

Europe will have learned that the counterweight to yesterday’s ethnic over-independence doesn’t have to be “Europe Above All” – something that Switzerland, with its four languages and cultures, has understood for centuries.


By Gunnar Heinsohn


All rights reserved ©Worldcrunch - in partnership with DIE WELT

Read the article in the original language.
http://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentare/article113607681/England-koennte-Europa-in-eine-neue-Aera-fuehren.html


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I don't see how anyone in Northern Europe those days could disagree of it in a short medium term as output for the recent crisis. It would be more fair in terms of financing and tax payer for some of the countries of the North.

In a scenario like that would be good for my native country Sweden. We would have more relevance than within the currently regional 'northern' EU, considering what we have invested in the current Union, far more than a country like Greece or Portugal. Yet, the weight of the decisions are always the same, totally unfair to our tax payer.

Also mentioning that all of those countries are more Liberal-oriented democracies.

Jackson
20-05-13, 03:30
Hmm, as long as each member could maintain ultimate sovereignty and some other aspects such as immigration and trade be either tailored to suit the entire group or left for each country to maintain, it sounds like not a bad idea. Although i'm wary of becoming involved too deep in this sort of thing. It would undoubtedly be better than the current EU, and assuming global trade was not hampered significantly fro each country, it could be beneficial there.

Under certain conditions, i would put this on par with complete independence, in regards to the UK at least. I think it should not have as much power by any means as the current EU.

Balder
20-05-13, 04:35
Surprised that this idea came from the 'conservative sector' of German media. A bit far fetched, for their part, but still with all of reality, can be valid.

In fact I'd prefer Denmark and Sweden splitting out from the EU . And hopefully a few more so we could get a the Nordic Council updated to a union with like minded and equal nations (Finland, Sweden, Iceland, Norway and Denmark) with a common interest.
Currently my country has more business relationships with US, Canada, Brazil and China than with all of the nations of southern Europe.

EU no longer has that utility for my country as it was in the 90s in matter of trade balance.

Yetos
20-05-13, 12:16
the scenario of another core of Eurozone (the Eurpean union of the North) was discused thourougly after 2010 in Greece,
as a possible target of Mercel focusing for Eurozone,

by what i remember that will might be able after 2017-2018, according the way the 'crisis' will take,
in that case Deutsch Sweden Finland Belgium Netherlands Czechia will be the core,
France Austria (Scotland) is still unknown and England is outside from today,
all the rest will be forced to leave Euro.

yet this is possible and will solve many problems, but what will happen if someone after that decide to put tax (customs) in that EU core products?

nordicwarrior
21-05-13, 15:21
This looks solid to me. I'm a citizen of the U.S. so I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think the key is to keep ultimate sovereignty for each nation like Jackson mentioned.

Grubbe
26-05-13, 14:45
I think maybe Britain would be too strong in such an alliance, and they have a history of arrogance. But I agree that the EU of today is too large (not in square kilometers, but including too many diverse peoples and cultures), so something would probably have to be done to save something of it. I like the idea of an alliance of the Scandinavian countries, but it would have to be an alliance with a high degree of independence - at least if we Norwegians should consider joining it!

agnieu
10-06-13, 01:04
It would make happy many Southern Europeans (not really me).

albanopolis
15-06-13, 19:41
It would make happy many Southern Europeans (not really me).

Why are you saying that? Southern Europeans will not be happy if they are excluded from any possible union. Northern Europeans exist today because of Southerns. It was Ancient Greece together with Ballkans, and later Rome with Ballkans also, that repeaditly repelled invasion after invasion, creating conditions for Europe that we know today. I have heard that Northern countries will try to change the union, because it too cumbersome to run the way it is. The idea is that, France, Italy, Germany, Neatherland and possibly two or three mor countries form the core of a new Union, with the same laws everywhere. So they will make all posible decisions. Others will be in the second circle. They will enjoy all economic benefits of the union, minus political benefits. Somthing like that could happen in the future. I don't think Northern European populations despise the Southerns. They too want the union.

Jackson
16-06-13, 12:39
Why are you saying that? Southern Europeans will not be happy if they are excluded from any possible union. Northern Europeans exist today because of Southerns. It was Ancient Greece together with Ballkans, and later Rome with Ballkans also, that repeaditly repelled invasion after invasion, creating conditions for Europe that we know today. I have heard that Northern countries will try to change the union, because it too cumbersome to run the way it is. The idea is that, France, Italy, Germany, Neatherland and possibly two or three mor countries form the core of a new Union, with the same laws everywhere. So they will make all posible decisions. Others will be in the second circle. They will enjoy all economic benefits of the union, minus political benefits. Somthing like that could happen in the future. I don't think Northern European populations despise the Southerns. They too want the union.

Well i dunno, you seem to be being carried by us at the moment. We could just cut you loose and let you enjoy your own inherent superiority...

albanopolis
16-06-13, 15:24
Well i dunno, you seem to be being carried by us at the moment. We could just cut you loose and let you enjoy your own inherent superiority...
Superiority is claimed by Northen Europeans. There was a law in 1900 by US Congress ( made up entirely of Northern folks) that restricted the Southerns from immigrating, on inferiority basis. So, Northerns have a history of superiority. Truth to be told, Northerns have been more succesful in modern times. But a Northern Union will not work, my friend. Southerns are a hard bone and vital. Golden age for North is over. Expensive labuor make Northerns uncompetitive. Anyway, you keep your views, I will keep mine. Southerns want a strong Union with North. We value everything good that Northerns bring, and we are capable of enriching civilisation. How, can one, not want a country like Italy in the Union?

kamani
16-06-13, 16:30
Well i dunno, you seem to be being carried by us at the moment. We could just cut you loose and let you enjoy your own inherent superiority...

you're right, go ahead then, cut lose all those lazy Southerners that you seem to be carrying around. But wait a minute, you can't, can you..!?

Cambrius (The Red)
17-06-13, 02:37
The answer is really a smaller EU rather than a separate Northern grouping.

LeBrok
17-06-13, 06:22
you're right, go ahead then, cut lose all those lazy Southerners that you seem to be carrying around. But wait a minute, you can't, can you..!?
They are really conscious, smart citizens of Europe up there. They would love to have whole Europe joined together for the maximum strength of Union. But if south gets really messed up, or a strong opposition takes hold, it might be dropped out.
Just be careful what you wish for, because it is not written in stone....

Boss
17-06-13, 07:34
They are really conscious, smart citizens of Europe up there. They would love to have whole Europe joined together for the maximum strength of Union. But if south gets really messed up, or a strong opposition takes hold, it might be dropped out.
Just be careful what you wish for, because it is not written in stone....

The English (he responded to Jackson who's English) most definitely do not want that and never did. England has always been the most Eurosceptic country in the continent.

You make it sound as though Northerners want the union to work and Southerners don't. And it is probably the other way around (most Euroskeptics aren't Southerners)

LeBrok
17-06-13, 08:36
The English (he responded to Jackson who's English) most definitely do not want that and never did. England has always been the most Eurosceptic country in the continent.

You make it sound as though Northerners want the union to work and Southerners don't. And it is probably the other way around (most Euroskeptics aren't Southerners)

When I listened to the people, I would say that I hear more Greeks opposed to EU (and accusing of EU of wrongdoing) than English folks, not mentioning Germans.

I don't know EU history too well, but if I could guess who was behind inception of EU, I would say northern and central europeans. Am I right?

Boss
17-06-13, 10:19
When I listened to the people, I would say that I hear more Greeks opposed to EU (and accusing of EU of wrongdoing) than English folks, not mentioning Germans.

I don't know EU history too well, but if I could guess who was behind inception of EU, I would say northern and central europeans. Am I right?

I am not sure which people are you referring to. I'm talking about polls. And what you hear from the Greeks is not opposition to the EU, it's opposition to particular measures within the EU. When I'm talking about Euroscepticism, I'm talking about full blown We-Don't-Want-To-Be-A-Part-of-This-Union. That is what it means, to my mind, to be anti-EU. Opposing a particular set of policies doesn't make you anti-EU. And in that sense, there is more of that in the North (again, England being the most extreme example) than in the South - even now in the midst of the crisis (or perhaps especially now).

& regarding your second point: The European Union was formed with the Maastricht Treaty. Now I am not sure I can answer who was behind it - it was a collective affair. The idea of a united Europe though has multiple sources - most Western (though I said northern as in British or Scandinavian or Baltic not western like French, German, Benelux) but not all. Spinelli, often considered one of the Founding Fathers of the EU, was Italian for example.

But all this I think is irrelevant. For I don't doubt that the elites in many Northern countries are pro-EU. And it is they that conceived of a united Europe. Rather I thought we were talking about the public - *the* English, for example (I don't think the Germans btw are anti-EU and I wasn't really talking about them) whose views are not really represented by these people.

Boss
17-06-13, 10:32
And BTW, I do not agree with kamani and albanopolis, I do not hold their views at all and I understand why Jackson would respond the way he did (though I think he's as mistaken as they are)

nordicwarrior
17-06-13, 12:29
...I don't know EU history too well, but if I could guess who was behind inception of EU, I would say northern and central europeans. Am I right?

I'd say you have to go further West to find the answer.

Not England, Scotland, Wales or Ireland though. A little bit further West than that. :)

Athelti Albanoi
17-06-13, 13:14
why do westeuropeans think they are so much better and want to seperate themself from easteurope??
without illyria or so called old europe you would be nothing

albanopolis
17-06-13, 18:52
And BTW, I do not agree with kamani and albanopolis, I do not hold their views at all and I understand why Jackson would respond the way he did (though I think he's as mistaken as they are)
Well, there are not many choices left for Southern Europeans. Union with North or Union with Turkey. Since Union with Turkey was tested for 500 yrs, the only option remains Union with North. Northern Union is not going to happen. My view is that the design of union should change. Its getting too popular and too many participants. Its like Eurovision.

Jackson
17-06-13, 19:05
Superiority is claimed by Northen Europeans. There was a law in 1900 by US Congress ( made up entirely of Northern folks) that restricted the Southerns from immigrating, on inferiority basis. So, Northerns have a history of superiority. Truth to be told, Northerns have been more succesful in modern times. But a Northern Union will not work, my friend. Southerns are a hard bone and vital. Golden age for North is over. Expensive labuor make Northerns uncompetitive. Anyway, you keep your views, I will keep mine. Southerns want a strong Union with North. We value everything good that Northerns bring, and we are capable of enriching civilisation. How, can one, not want a country like Italy in the Union?

They are not my views as such, i was merely turning your own views on it's head to put you in the position i feel when reading your posts. I do not think that southern Europeans are inferior, and i do not want a northern European Union, although it seems that most of northern Europe and most of southern Europe would be more compatible with the rest of their group than with each other, economically at least.

Jackson
17-06-13, 19:09
you're right, go ahead then, cut lose all those lazy Southerners that you seem to be carrying around. But wait a minute, you can't, can you..!?

No, i can't. I'm merely a poor maligned peasant who can't even do much to sort out the bad politics in his own country let alone others. :)

albanopolis
17-06-13, 19:19
They are not my views as such, i was merely turning your own views on it's head to put you in the position i feel when reading your posts. I do not think that southern Europeans are inferior, and i do not want a northern European Union, although it seems that most of northern Europe and most of southern Europe would be more compatible with the rest of their group than with each other, economically at least.
O.k then, we are both for a strong European Union. My country is still not part of it, but I want to be. In my post I did not intend to express any Southern superiority, since there is not such, but I was stating an historical fact: Rome is largely responsible for the shape of todays map. Without them might have been different.

Jackson
17-06-13, 20:47
O.k then, we are both for a strong European Union. My country is still not part of it, but I want to be. In my post I did not intend to express any Southern superiority, since there is not such, but I was stating an historical fact: Rome is largely responsible for the shape of todays map. Without them might have been different.

Ok, maybe i misunderstood. You are right about the Roman Empire. Personally i think the EU would have to change substantially before i'd accept it, although i never would in my own country just because i am fundamentally opposed to the basic principle of power being ceded out of the nation, but i think the most important thing is that if the EU is going to succeed, it needs to have strong support from the people, and they must also all (or most) want and support unification. The EU either needs to not exist or become fully federal to succeed in my opinion. I am against 'Europe' becoming effectively a national entity, but i am aware that it is heading in that direction whether i like it or not. My primary concern is for my own nation, but if the people in other nations in Europe feel the same as me i would support them. Last i heard about 1/3 of Germans are against it, or at least the Euro. It's probably gone up since then, though.

I honestly just see it as another attempt to unify Europe, only by non-violent/expansionistic means this time. I do not think we are ready for it now, although i don't know what it will be like in the future. I guess it depends on the ideology, whether people feel more with their national identity or European identity, and i know the EU is strongly pushing for people to start considering themselves as European first.

It could be a lot worse, that is true. But i am still not in favour of it. I'm not in favour of the EU because i am pro-European nation states. I'm very much in favour of cooperation with other European countries, i just think that political and monetary union is far too extreme, and may not be in the best interest of the European peoples.

Vallicanus
17-06-13, 21:37
O.k then, we are both for a strong European Union. My country is still not part of it, but I want to be. In my post I did not intend to express any Southern superiority, since there is not such, but I was stating an historical fact: Rome is largely responsible for the shape of todays map. Without them might have been different.


Are you sure?

Name one modern successor state of the Roman Empire.:useless:

Please don't say Italy, which was divided from the year 568 (Langobard invasion) till 1861 (new Kingdom of Italy).

Athelti Albanoi
17-06-13, 21:50
in ancient times we were them with the knowledge and you the underdevloped tribes
and since the renaissance its the other way around
the boot is on the other foot lol

Nobody1
17-06-13, 22:17
Are you sure?

Name one modern successor state of the Roman Empire.:useless:

Please don't say Italy, which was divided from the year 568 (Langobard invasion) till 1861 (new Kingdom of Italy).

.......Israel

Nobody1
17-06-13, 22:32
Is this really about the EU or is this about the Euro zone?

There are no problems with the idea of a united Europe; of open borders, and of Brussels regulating and norming everything to a common EU standard;

But the united Currency doesnt work;

Poland is in the EU but not in the Euro; and they are doing just fine and Business between Germany and Poland is booming, despite 2 diff. currencies; So the Euro being a must is a myth;

A Union of economies (within EU) that can sustain such a strong currency - not a bad idea
A Union of diverse economies, in which the smaller economies are not capable of carrying such a strong currency - bad idea

albanopolis
17-06-13, 23:15
Ok, maybe i misunderstood. You are right about the Roman Empire. Personally i think the EU would have to change substantially before i'd accept it, although i never would in my own country just because i am fundamentally opposed to the basic principle of power being ceded out of the nation, but i think the most important thing is that if the EU is going to succeed, it needs to have strong support from the people, and they must also all (or most) want and support unification. The EU either needs to not exist or become fully federal to succeed in my opinion. I am against 'Europe' becoming effectively a national entity, but i am aware that it is heading in that direction whether i like it or not. My primary concern is for my own nation, but if the people in other nations in Europe feel the same as me i would support them. Last i heard about 1/3 of Germans are against it, or at least the Euro. It's probably gone up since then, though.

I honestly just see it as another attempt to unify Europe, only by non-violent/expansionistic means this time. I do not think we are ready for it now, although i don't know what it will be like in the future. I guess it depends on the ideology, whether people feel more with their national identity or European identity, and i know the EU is strongly pushing for people to start considering themselves as European first.

It could be a lot worse, that is true. But i am still not in favour of it. I'm not in favour of the EU because i am pro-European nation states. I'm very much in favour of cooperation with other European countries, i just think that political and monetary union is far too extreme, and may not be in the best interest of the European peoples.
I totaly agree with you! I, too am afraid that in current form EU is a big bazar. All talk little work. My ideal Union would be France, Germany, Italy, England and maybe Spain for population reasons having an enhanced status, all other lightweight countries treated fairly, but in other circle of decision making. Making sure that nations stay the way they are, am OK with that. But I too oppose EU being a federal state. EU does not need a president. It needs a Common Foreign minister though, to deal with other countries. If Turkey gets in the Union, I doubt it will be managable anymore. I am not against Turks as a nation, but their size will complicate a lot of things. They bring with them in the Union another undeclared nation of Kurdistan, with 25 milion souls that are 1000% middleeastern stock.

LeBrok
18-06-13, 00:02
I am not sure which people are you referring to. I'm talking about polls. And what you hear from the Greeks is not opposition to the EU, it's opposition to particular measures within the EU. When I'm talking about Euroscepticism, I'm talking about full blown We-Don't-Want-To-Be-A-Part-of-This-Union. That is what it means, to my mind, to be anti-EU. Opposing a particular set of policies doesn't make you anti-EU. And in that sense, there is more of that in the North (again, England being the most extreme example) than in the South - even now in the midst of the crisis (or perhaps especially now).
That's a good news.




But all this I think is irrelevant. For I don't doubt that the elites in many Northern countries are pro-EU. And it is they that conceived of a united Europe. Rather I thought we were talking about the public - *the* English, for example (I don't think the Germans btw are anti-EU and I wasn't really talking about them) whose views are not really represented by these people.
I think the business elites are very pro-EU, especially if it comes to duty free big European market. Honestly this is what Europe needs to be on equal level in competing with US and China business.

Nobody1
18-06-13, 05:20
They bring with them in the Union another undeclared nation of Kurdistan, with 25 milion souls that are 1000% middleeastern stock.

Are they really or are they more like Persians?

albanopolis
18-06-13, 17:03
Are they really or are they more like Persians?
When I am saying middleastern I refer to their geography not phenotype. EU is already a big mix of races and phenotypes. But geographicaly they are midleasterns. Such a big Union with countries with populations of 100 mil (Turkey will be in 20 yrs) is not managable. Current Union + Ballkans is the maximum capacity.

Illyricum Sacrum
21-06-13, 15:41
Are you sure?

Name one modern successor state of the Roman Empire.:useless:

Please don't say Italy, which was divided from the year 568 (Langobard invasion) till 1861 (new Kingdom of Italy).

France of Charlemagne and Germany of Frederick I Barbarossa

Illyricum Sacrum
21-06-13, 16:06
EU and Euro were created to compete with US and the USD. While caught up in this “battle”, EU and US disregarded the rise of China. I think EU have bigger problems. One is the demographic regress, another one are the Islamic emigrants who don’t integrate and slowly but surely are taking over,and the last one is Chinese expansionism.
While being too busy with what and who to cut loose from the Union, China is colonizing Africa, is “occupying” resources around the World and lately they removed the “one child per family policy”. It seems like the Chinese want to take over the World and if you didn’t like the US Empire, you have another thing coming, and it won’t be pretty. EU was eager to overtake US and both helped China become what it has become today, a huge threat.
I’m appalled by the last events in Sweden, the beating to death of the Dutch linesman by Middle Eastern adolescent players, antigay violence (by Middle Easterns) in France etc. The so called democracy, political correctness etc, is burying Europe and soon with it US. We’re bending over backwards to make the minorities happy, while nobody gives a sh.. about the majority. With their demographic boom and their goal on spreading Islam worldwide, not too far in the future we’ll have Eurasia.
Are the Europeans oblivious to what is going on around them?

Templar
21-06-13, 16:31
EU and Euro were created to compete with US and the USD. While caught up in this “battle”, EU and US disregarded the rise of China. I think EU have bigger problems. One is the demographic regress, another one are the Islamic emigrants who don’t integrate and slowly but surely are taking over,and the last one is Chinese expansionism.
While being too busy with what and who to cut loose from the Union, China is colonizing Africa, is “occupying” resources around the World and lately they removed the “one child per family policy”. It seems like the Chines want to take over the World and if you didn’t like the US Empire, you have another thing coming, and it won’t be pretty. EU was eager to overtake US and both helped China become what it has become today, a huge threat.
I’m appalled by the last events in Sweden, the beating to death of the Dutch linesman by Middle Eastern adolescent players, antigay violence (by Middle Easterns) in France etc. The so called democracy, political correctness etc, is burying Europe and soon with it US. We’re bending over backwards to make the minorities happy, while nobody gives a sh.. about the majority. With their demographic boom and their goal on spreading Islam worldwide, not too far in the future we’ll have Eurasia.
Are the Europeans oblivious to what is going on around them?

You make it seem like it is Muslim immigrants vs the West. But it is actually much more complex than that. For example, descendants of Afro Caribbean immigrants (who are most Christian Evangelicals) are far more violent in the UK than any Muslim immigrant group. Many Muslim immigrants assimilate and develop the host country quite well.

What the real problem is massive immigration of UNEDUCATED immigrants. No matter what their religion is, usually uneducated immigrants cause severe problems to the host country. Perhaps the only exception to this rule would be East Asians. I propose that illegal immigrants get deported, uneducated immigrants are restricted entry, and educated immigrants are encouraged.

Illyricum Sacrum
21-06-13, 17:21
You make it seem like it is Muslim immigrants vs the West. But it is actually much more complex than that. For example, descendants of Afro Caribbean immigrants (who are most Christian Evangelicals) are far more violent in the UK than any Muslim immigrant group. Many Muslim immigrants assimilate and develop the host country quite well.

What the real problem is massive immigration of UNEDUCATED immigrants. No matter what their religion is, usually uneducated immigrants cause severe problems to the host country. Perhaps the only exception to this rule would be East Asians. I propose that illegal immigrants get deported, uneducated immigrants are restricted entry, and educated immigrants are encouraged.

Templar, What I said was based on the latest events and the failure of the immigrants, Middle Easterns especially, to integrate, and disregard the land of the law wanting to establish the Sharia Law. There are quarters in London and Paris that police won't go in. I also read a Danish study, regarding a group of Turkish immigrants, and three generations later, they could barely speak Danish, the majority bringing spouses from the original country of origin. Interesting to see was the charter of contributing vs taking from the welfare system. The Middle Easterns and North Africans were the least employed and relying heavily on the welfare system. I have don't have any problem with the immigrants that work, integrate, respect the law of the land. I do agree with your last statement.

Boss
21-06-13, 17:25
France of Charlemagne and Germany of Frederick I Barbarossa

Not modern and no.

Illyricum Sacrum
21-06-13, 17:46
Define modern!

Boss
21-06-13, 17:54
Define modern!

Nation states in existence today (Poland, China, the US, etc).

Illyricum Sacrum
21-06-13, 18:15
Nation states in existence today (Poland, China, the US, etc). Aren't France and Germany in existence today?!

Boss
21-06-13, 18:18
Aren't France and Germany in existence today?!

They are not Charlemagne's or Barbarossa's states.

Illyricum Sacrum
21-06-13, 18:32
They are not Charlemagne's or Barbarossa's states. Vallicanus Said

Name one modern successor state of the Roman Empire. Germany has been a part of Holy Roma Empire till the end
If you're looking for the exact defined boundaries that's a different story, since borders have been rubber-band throughout history.

Boss
21-06-13, 18:37
Vallicanus Said

Name one modern successor state of the Roman Empire. Germany has been a part of Holy Roma Empire till the end
If you're looking for the exact defined boundaries that's a different story, since borders have been rubber-band throughout history.

No, not looking for the exact borders but the Holy Roman Empire did not include just modern Germany. It included parts of Italy, the Balkans, Central Europe & North Western Europe. So if you're gonna talk about ONE successor state (as opposed to many), why single out Germany?

Illyricum Sacrum
21-06-13, 18:51
No, not looking for the exact borders but the Holy Roman Empire did not include just modern Germany. It included parts of Italy, the Balkans, Central Europe & North Western Europe. So if you're gonna talk about ONE successor state (as opposed to many), why single out Germany?
When we talk about Ottoman Empire we think of Turkey, even though it was composed of many ethnicities, Austro-Hungarian we think Austria, British we think of England etc. For the same reason the last Holy Roman Empire brings to mind Germany.

Yetos
21-06-13, 20:37
eu and euro were created to compete with us and the usd. While caught up in this “battle”, eu and us disregarded the rise of china. I think eu have bigger problems. One is the demographic regress, another one are the islamic emigrants who don’t integrate and slowly but surely are taking over,and the last one is chinese expansionism.
while being too busy with what and who to cut loose from the union, china is colonizing africa, is “occupying” resources around the world and lately they removed the “one child per family policy”. It seems like the chinese want to take over the world and if you didn’t like the us empire, you have another thing coming, and it won’t be pretty. Eu was eager to overtake us and both helped china become what it has become today, a huge threat.
i’m appalled by the last events in sweden, the beating to death of the dutch linesman by middle eastern adolescent players, antigay violence (by middle easterns) in france etc. The so called democracy, political correctness etc, is burying europe and soon with it us. We’re bending over backwards to make the minorities happy, while nobody gives a sh.. About the majority. With their demographic boom and their goal on spreading islam worldwide, not too far in the future we’ll have eurasia.
are the europeans oblivious to what is going on around them?


what are you talking about?

Where the hell you heart from the creators of union for coal and steel that they wanted to compete the usd?

Illyricum Sacrum
21-06-13, 21:36
what are you talking about?

Where the hell you heart from the creators of union for coal and steel that they wanted to compete the usd? Since you know what you're talking about you tell me the reason behind Euro! I guess there are financial analysts who think same way: The single European currency has shown these leaders that monetary regionalization and even globalization is possible and, inadvertently, the euro has touched off a race to win over geo-monetary space outside the dollar’s sphere of influence. In this race, the Europeans have started with a certain advantage from the outset but if they do not join forces, they might soon be left behind.Analysis:Introduction
Since its creation and consolidation as an international currency, the euro has triggered extensive academic debate on its potential for unseating the US dollar as the anchor of the world economy

intorg
18-11-13, 16:51
I dont think it will be long lasting. Separation of powers of EU would be only good for the China, Japan and India. On the other hand EU, instead of dissolution should find the ways for expansion.