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zanipolo
01-06-13, 01:45
a new survey on Italian ydna and mtdna

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/genetic-structure-and-different.html

oddities are

I1 only in North East Italy and romagna area

- L ydna of 8.2% in North east Italy

and for adamo....you line is only in central and south Italy


to the others ...enjoy

maybe Maciano can use these numbers to update his data

another site with different perspectives
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/italan-complex-ancestry.html#comment-form

adamo
01-06-13, 04:27
Wow! Good find zanipolo. I'm surprised at how high G2a frequencies are. U152 seems to peak in tuscany where my mother hails from...in area I (north-west Italy) u152 is high but this is also where Iberian P312 and L-2 R1b peaks in all Italy. I1 peaks in veneto-Emilia Romagna regions.

adamo
01-06-13, 04:31
Hg T is so sketchy all over Italy , weird to think I am the minority...It's so funny, my nonno is a real "paesano" , but he was very hurt when I told him he only represents a minority of Italians he thinks he is Arab now ahahaha

zanipolo
01-06-13, 05:26
Hg T is so sketchy all over Italy , weird to think I am the minority...It's so funny, my nonno is a real "paesano" , but he was very hurt when I told him he only represents a minority of Italians he thinks he is Arab now ahahaha

?

they have noted your T ...its called T2 , now called T1a1
- T on its own is all the other T , that is T-M184 and T-L131

olden times ( 2 years ago) it was
T = main branch
T1 = ended up being a private line
T2 = T1a1a
T3 = T1a2a
There is now a T1a3 as well.

the 2 links I attached are; one has P-77 which is your line and the other link has T2 which is your line

your line is not found above the centre of Italy. If you read the second links and all the comments he stated its Paleo.
Also L is neighbour to T ...if L reached Italy in neolithic surely T came with it

adamo
01-06-13, 05:28
Oh my god really??? I am P-77? I ad a feeling thanks zanipolo, that's awesome!

Nobody1
01-06-13, 05:46
Thats a good and detailed study;
great that it reveals the Area and Towns of the samples gathered

R1b-U152 is very detailed and revealing:

Area I - Piedmont/Lombardy/Liguria = 32.2% [samples 161]
Area III - Bologna = 31% [samples 29] - very small sample size, 31% from 29 samples = 9 samples / so still significant
Area IV - Tuscany = 37.4% [samples 123]

To me this further indicates the Bronze Age (Indo-European) Umbrian lineage;
amongst the Etruscans (Umbro-Pelasgian) and the Umbro-Ligures (Umbrian Insubres) of the Po Valley.

Area V - Central Italy = 19.5% - [Umbrian Sabines]
Area VI - South Italy = 8.6% - [Umbrian Samnites]

All the other figures are equal/identical with other studies, nothing new nothing special:
Sardinia = 39% I2a1 (M26),
G2a, J2a and E-V13 being significant (although varying) all across

wouldnt have expected Sicily to be 2.8% R1b-L21; more like 0%

The only thing that is truly odd is that R1a is 0% in NE Italy (Area II)
- 77 samples from Treviso & Vicenza (app. no samples used from Aviano, Friul)

I find this odd, because DiGiacomo et al 2003, had 55 samples from Verona and Val di Non -[NE Italy] and the result was 6.7 and 9.1 R1a / average = 7.9% R1a;
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/italy.pdf

zanipolo
01-06-13, 07:02
The only thing that is truly odd is that R1a is 0% in NE Italy (Area II)
- 77 samples from Treviso & Vicenza (app. no samples used from Aviano, Friul)

I find this odd, because DiGiacomo et al 2003, had 55 samples from Verona and Val di Non -[NE Italy] and the result was 6.7 and 9.1 R1a / average = 7.9% R1a;
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/italy.pdf

this study from 2008
Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of agriculture in southeast Europe
had 10.4 R1a1 in northeast italy, but the bulk (9.1) was in udine ( friuli) and trieste area which IIRC are east of aviano

Nobody1
01-06-13, 08:45
Here is the full study:

Boattini et al 2013
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441

and its even more detailed than i thought;

Significantly different ages were estimated for mtDNA and Y-chromosome systems. mtDNA variability dates back to Paleolithic and supports the existence of an Italian human Refugium during the last glacial maximum whereas Y-chromosome points to the importance that the demographic events happened during the Neolithic and the Metal Ages had in the male Italian patterns of diversity and distribution.

For instance, the dates of several DAPC clusters fall within the range of the Metal Ages (Table 2). During this long period (third and second millennia BC) Italy underwent important technological and social transformations finally leading to the ethnogenesis of the most important proto-historic Italic peoples. On the whole, our results indicate that these transformations, far from being exclusively cultural phenomena, actually involved relevant population events.

Great to see Genetics catching up with Archaeology and Anthropology;
The Metal Ages of the 3rd and 2nd Mil. BC show the first wave of Indo-Europeans emerging in the Chalcolithic (Remedello II) and a full scale second wave emerging in the Bronze Age (Terremare)

The proto-historic Italics (Indo-Europeans) being the Umbrians (Terremare -Bronze Age):

Pliny - Natural History (79 AD)
The race of the Umbri is considered the oldest in Italy. —(C. Plin. lib. ii. Nat. Hist. c. 14.)

Dionysius - The Roman Antiquities (29 BC)
The Umbri inhabited a great many other parts of Italy, and were an exceeding great, and ancient people.

Cambrian Institute - The Cambrian Journal (1862)
from Caius Sempronius (De Divis. Ital.);
"The portion of the Apennines from the sources of the Tiber to the Nar, the Umbri inhabit, the oldest stock of the Old Gael, (Veteres Galli), as Augustus writes."
[Apenninum colunt Ligures, portionem vero Apennini inhabitant Umbri, prima veterum Gallorum proies, ut Augustus scribit]

James C. Prichard - Ethnography of Europe: Vol.III (1841)
Solinus informs us that Bocchus, a writer who has been several times cited by Pliny, reported the Umbri to have been descended from the ancient Gauls;
[Bocchus (affranchi lettre de Sylla) absolvit Gallorum veterum propaginem Umbros esse]
[Umbri, Italiae gens est, sed Gallorum veterum propago]


Archaeology, Anthropology and the Indo-European Umbrians .........
http://imageshack.us/a/img443/1081/dilusional.png
........... I told you so

Nobody1
01-06-13, 09:02
this study from 2008
Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of agriculture in southeast Europe


had 10.4 R1a1 in northeast italy, but the bulk (9.1) was in udine ( friuli) and trieste area which IIRC are east of aviano

Yes its def. East of Aviano, but there were no Y-DNA samples from Aviano used, only mtDNA;
And Verona and Val di Non being west of Friuli and still having a substantial 7.9% R1a, i expected likewise in Treviso and Vicenza;

So that its 0% flat is a surprise;

Also surprising is that Hg I1-M253 is 11% in NE Italy- with also R1b-U106 being 5.5%;
both much higher the NW Italy (3.1% each)

Grubbe
01-06-13, 11:34
a new survey on Italian ydna and mtdna

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/genetic-structure-and-different.html

oddities are

I1 only in North East Italy and romagna area

- L ydna of 8.2% in North east Italy

and for adamo....you line is only in central and south Italy


to the others ...enjoy

maybe Maciano can use these numbers to update his data

another site with different perspectives
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/italan-complex-ancestry.html#comment-form Thanks! The second link also had more about the frequencies of different mtDNA haplogroups.

MOESAN
01-06-13, 11:59
Wow! Good find zanipolo. I'm surprised at how high G2a frequencies are. U152 seems to peak in tuscany where my mother hails from...in area I (north-west Italy) u152 is high but this is also where Iberian P312 and L-2 R1b peaks in all Italy. I1 peaks in veneto-Emilia Romagna regions.

Adamo, just a thought: P312 is not "iberian": it reveals only an intermediary form either a) without any downstream SNP - or b) with downstream SNPs we have not discovered yet... so for U152, L21/S145 and others, only an "ancestral form" or "previous stage" - the P312 of Germany by instance can having had a different story
compared to the P312 of Southern Spain or W Ireland, since Calcholithic or even before that:
there is some 'dynamics' in these SNPs
just a point of reasoning
have a good week-end

zanipolo
01-06-13, 12:05
Yes its def. East of Aviano, but there were no Y-DNA samples from Aviano used, only mtDNA;
And Verona and Val di Non being west of Friuli and still having a substantial 7.9% R1a, i expected likewise in Treviso and Vicenza;

So that its 0% flat is a surprise;

Also surprising is that Hg I1-M253 is 11% in NE Italy- with also R1b-U106 being 5.5%;
both much higher the NW Italy (3.1% each)

R-U106 IIRC is about 15% in eastern austria............is it the lombards?

Discussing with the other guy from second link,

It's possible that a small lineage like R1a has a scattered distribution with localized founder effects. If so, random effects of sampling choices could affect results, what is less likely to happen to more common lineages.
.........I asked on L Y-dna.........
Just thought that L and T must have migrated together. My initial impression is that it's some sort of localized founder effect with most probable Neolithic origins. L is widely distributed at low frequencies through West Asia, what seems to support the notion of Neolithic colonization: Anatolia → Balcans → Italy.

...........If they found no R1a in veneto is a surprise , but Val di non ( south tyrol ) does show some R1a.......it can be germanic R1a.

R1a is not all slavic

MOESAN
01-06-13, 12:12
Thats a good and detailed study;
great that it reveals the Area and Towns of the samples gathered

R1b-U152 is very detailed and revealing:

Area I - Piedmont/Lombardy/Liguria = 32.2% [samples 161]
Area III - Bologna = 31% [samples 29] - very small sample size, 31% from 29 samples = 9 samples / so still significant
Area IV - Tuscany = 37.4% [samples 123]

To me this further indicates the Bronze Age (Indo-European) Umbrian lineage;
amongst the Etruscans (Umbro-Pelasgian) and the Umbro-Ligures (Umbrian Insubres) of the Po Valley.

Area V - Central Italy = 19.5% - [Umbrian Sabines]
Area VI - South Italy = 8.6% - [Umbrian Samnites]

All the other figures are equal/identical with other studies, nothing new nothing special:
Sardinia = 39% I2a1 (M26),
G2a, J2a and E-V13 being significant (although varying) all across

wouldnt have expected Sicily to be 2.8% R1b-L21; more like 0%

The only thing that is truly odd is that R1a is 0% in NE Italy (Area II)
- 77 samples from Treviso & Vicenza (app. no samples used from Aviano, Friul)

I find this odd, because DiGiacomo et al 2003, had 55 samples from Verona and Val di Non -[NE Italy] and the result was 6.7 and 9.1 R1a / average = 7.9% R1a;
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/italy.pdf

your post is interesting, but I remain confused when I read you evocating names like Umbro-Pelasgians (Etruscans) or Umbro-Ligures (Insubres): where did you find these correlations? or it is to name the current mix in populations of today? "pelasgian" is confusing: I think it reflects anatolian I-Eans as well as speakers of non-I-E caucasic or anatolian languages (pre I-E)...
R1b-L21 in Sicily is surprising: it could be a Normans (of France and Britain) heritage: L21 from W-Norway or from celtic lands (pre-Franks Gaul, celtic Britain) people incorporated into Normans society??? only very detailed SNPs could answer that -
I agree with you that R1a would be heavier in N-E Italy (but this region is so spotty, and global surveys mistake us, I think, so some "neighbours" can be rich of it when others are very poor!

MOESAN
01-06-13, 12:17
I'll read more about L21 in Italy - it could be older than Normans and being part of ligurian colonists or akin tribes got down to Southern Italy at Bronze Age times??? So I need to know the L21 weight among NW Italians. L21 is not absent of some regions of E-France, even Alps; it is a predecessor, I think, of U152 there, and some P310s confues us because some are "U152 fathers" an some are "L21" fathers, without speaking about other downstream SNPs of R1b -

MOESAN
01-06-13, 12:22
I recall here the opinion of old scholars that said Terramare would be latine of akin italic tribes (mix with Ligurians and pre-I-E of Switzerland and NW Italy) RATHER than Umbrians... the first named were older than these last ones in N-Italy (at least 500 years?)

Eldritch
01-06-13, 12:55
No R1a in NE Italy really?

Germanic lineages are strongest in NE, curiously I2b1 peaks in Sardinians.

G2a very high.

julia90
01-06-13, 13:13
Useless study.. Mtdna and yd a are only an insignificant fraction of a single human being. They should have done the research on many autosomes and create an italian genetic map/clusters.

Nobody1
01-06-13, 13:19
I recall here the opinion of old scholars that said Terramare would be latine of akin italic tribes (mix with Ligurians and pre-I-E of Switzerland and NW Italy) RATHER than Umbrians... the first named were older than these last ones in N-Italy (at least 500 years?)

The Latin-Italic link is only due to the spurious claim that the Terremare settlements show resemblance to a Roman military camp. - Not sufficient!

Isaac Taylor - The Origin of the Aryans (1890)
Towards the close of the neolithic age the same Aryan-speaking race which constructed the Swiss pile dwellings seems to have crossed the Alps, erecting their pile dwellings in the Italian lakes and in the marshes of the valley of the Po. Helbig has proved that these people must be identified with those whom we call the Umbrians. This conclusion, established solely on archaeological grounds, is confirmed by the close connection between Celtic and Italic speech, and also by the almost identical civilization disclosed by the pile dwellings of Italy [North] and those of Switzerland.

This Archaological and Linguistical manifestation is further bolstered by the
Historical quotes on post # 8;

also the mutual high levels of R1b-U152 in Switzerland and the Upper Rhine Area further indicates this Migration; from the proto-Keltic Indo-European Swiss Lake dwellings.

Other / more detailed info on the Umbrians - History & Civilisations > Thread: Who where the Sabines? > p.1

The Frequency distributution of R1b-U152 across Italy - North (32%) - Central (19%) - South (8.6%) can only be attributed to the Umbrians [Insubres-Sabines-Samnites]; wouldnt know any other people with that range and settlements.

As for the link between Umbrians and the Ligurians and Pelasgians > History & Civilisations Thread: Who where the Sabines? - p.1

Plutarch - Lives (120 AD)
the [Ambrones] often called out their name Ambrones, either to encourage one another or to terrify the Romans by this announcement. The Ligurians, who were the first of the Italic people to go down to battle with them, hearing their shouts, and understanding what they said, responded by calling out their old national name, which was the same, for the Ligurians also call themselves Ambrones when they refer to their origin.


R1b-L21 in Sicily is surprising: it could be a Normans (of France and Britain) heritage: [I]L21 from W-Norway or from celtic lands (pre-Franks Gaul, celtic Britain) people incorporated into Normans society??? only very detailed SNPs could answer that -

Either that,
or some Irish-American soldiers had a Bangging time during the Invasion of 1943!

Nobody1
01-06-13, 13:26
R-U106 IIRC is about 15% in eastern austria............is it the lombards?

would be my best guess,
along with Hg I1-M253 being 11% in NE Italy ...... pos. Langobarden lineage.


It's possible that a small lineage like R1a has a scattered distribution with localized founder effects. If so, random effects of sampling choices could affect results, what is less likely to happen to more common lineages.

That is truly the only plausible explanation;



...........If they found no R1a in veneto is a surprise , but Val di non ( south tyrol ) does show some R1a.......it can be germanic R1a. R1a is not all slavic

That is for sure, they found R1a (not specified sub-clade) in Eulau, Germany (west of the Elbe) from Skeletal remains of the first Indo-European wave [Corded Ware Culture]; Strontium Isotope Analyses indicated the Males (R1a) were local to the area (west of the Elbe)

Eulau -
http://www.pnas.org/content/105/47/18226.long

MOESAN
01-06-13, 18:00
Useless study.. Mtdna and yd a are only an insignificant fraction of a single human being. They should have done the research on many autosomes and create an italian genetic map/clusters.

I don't agree completely: it would be very astonishing if autosomals genes should not have something to do with the population "mix" of mt DNA with the Y DNA (these genes don't mix, but the population where we find them is a mix of parenst whom ancestry can be determined for a big part by these male and female ligneages): surely some discrepancies can occur, but the mix of maternal and paternal uniparental genes says something to us, not evidently so far from what could say an autosomals survey -
an surely in future the autosomals pooling could get more accurate...

MOESAN
01-06-13, 18:07
R1a non slavic? glup! I swallowed through the wrong hole!
Slavic is a relatively recent cristallization (after iron Ages?), and I respect the traditionnal vews before TRUE new discoveries: cradle surely around western Ukraina south-eastern Poland: SO, in a region that knew AND Y-R1a AND Y-I2a1 AT HIGH LEVELS
R1a has NOTHING SPECIFIC to GERMANICS, it is only one of the populations male markers that take part in the germanic AND slavic cultures formations: R1a is common to both - the others male markers only are different

MOESAN
01-06-13, 19:51
The Latin-Italic link is only due to the spurious claim that the Terremare settlements show resemblance to a Roman military camp. - Not sufficient!

Isaac Taylor - The Origin of the Aryans (1890)
Towards the close of the neolithic age the same Aryan-speaking race [Indo-Europeans] which constructed the Swiss pile dwellings seems to have crossed the Alps, erecting their pile dwellings in the Italian lakes and in the marshes of the valley of the Po. Helbig has proved that these people must be identified with those whom we call the Umbrians. This conclusion, established solely on archaeological grounds, is confirmed by the close connection between Celtic and Italic speech, and also by the almost identical civilization disclosed by the pile dwellings of Italy [North] and those of Switzerland.

This Archaological and Linguistical manifestation is further bolstered by the
Historical quotes on post # 8;

also the mutual high levels of R1b-U152 in Switzerland and the Upper Rhine Area further indicates this Migration; from the proto-Keltic Indo-European Swiss Lake dwellings.

Other / more detailed info on the Umbrians - History & Civilisations > Thread: Who where the Sabines? > p.1

The Frequency distributution of R1b-U152 across Italy - North (32%) - Central (19%) - South (8.6%) can only be attributed to the Umbrians [Insubres-Sabines-Samnites]; wouldnt know any other people with that range and settlements.

As for the link between Umbrians and the Ligurians and Pelasgians > History & Civilisations Thread: Who where the Sabines? - p.1

Plutarch - Lives (120 AD)
the [Ambrones] often called out their name Ambrones, either to encourage one another or to terrify the Romans by this announcement. The Ligurians, who were the first of the Italic people to go down to battle with them, hearing their shouts, and understanding what they said, responded by calling out their old national name, which was the same, for the Ligurians also call themselves Ambrones when they refer to their origin.



Either that,
or some Irish-American soldiers had a Bangging time during the Invasion of 1943!


Concerning your remark just above, are you serious or making joke?

all the way, modern militar occupations need a very long time before producing genetic noticeable modifications among the occupied population: it recalls me an aggregationed (?) teacher that told us the modern Bavarians were darker than other Germans because they had been occupied by french troups! So ridiculous!

For Latins & Umbrians, I recall just some old scholars thoughts but your sources seem older than my ones (it is true it does not prove they have no more some worth) -
Umbrians I think were the last italic tribes to reach Italy – I doubt they were linked too close to the Lake Dwelling people I link rather to Ligurians: and for me Ligurians were not Italics even if as the proto-Celts they have some ancestry shared with them, almost everybody agree with that – I red somewhere this sort of dwelling was known in Hungary at old times but the Danaw river saw so many tribes! I link Umbrians to latter movements of Urnfield inspiration, and for me they entered N-E Italy at Iron Age coming from a central Europe position, after having had contacts (a bet of mine) with N-Veneti; I wrote yet I thought P- I-Es (celtic, italic, hellenic) were the last to invest western Europe after their Kw- respective brothers -
Y-R1b-U152, as other SNPs, has an indicative value, but at its stage is not precise enough because surely it was shared by some Celts, Italics and Ligurians, either at Bronze Age or Iron Age – the %s can vary but some cumulative effect can have taken place where pre-Umbrians U152 mixed with Umbrians U152...by the way, your percentages for it are absolute ones, I believe, because I think U152 is relatively heavier within the sole R1b's in even in South

I need some time to cross cyphers before make my mind more sound about Italy -
A SAY HERE THAT ONE MORE TIME THE SURVEYS MIXED DIVERSE POPULATIONS / I DO NOT THINK COASTAL MODERN LIGURIANS (they are not the most Ligurians, Ligurians were more in highlands) ARE VERY CLOSE TO PIEMONTESES, YET SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT FROM RURAL "LOMBARDS" - the Y-E1b seems very stronger among modern so called "Ligurians" than among Lombards or Emilians or NE Toscans - but the problem is the coast of this sort of survey and the samples sufficient to do it
Have a good time this evening

MOESAN
01-06-13, 19:54
'coast'??? 'cost' sorry!

oriental
01-06-13, 20:09
I doubt there will a significant surviving Roman DNA as they were the 3% filthy rich during the Empire days. Their birth and their ancestoral lineage to being Romans would ensure their high place in society. However, with the downfall all those poor citizens and slaves would have pounced on the Romans and killed them and looted their properties. The smart ones who could foresee this coming, went into hiding with their loot. They probably went to far off places incognito.

Now that would be a good novel if one of surviving Romans penned their stories. There was a movie about Justinian ? being spirited out of the Byzantium Empire with a Roman sword taken to England. I think the son was the who pulled out the sword from the stone. Another variation of King Arthur. It starred Colin Firth, Aishwaria Rai, Ben Kingsley.

Maciamo
01-06-13, 21:37
I was about to post this, but Zanipolo beat me to it.

Here is the link to the actual study (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441). The data corresponds very closely to the one I compiled in the Y-DNA tables based on other studies to date. Boattini et al. note that the gradient within Italy is not north-south but rather north-west to south-east + Sardinia, which is exactly what my maps have shown. You can see this most clearly by comparing the R1 map (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#R1) with the E+G+J+T map (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#EGJT).

The authors confirm that most Y-DNA lineages in Italy appear to date from the Late Neolithic to the Bronze Age. This is the first official study finally acknowledging what I have been saying for many years, namely that R1b and J2, and not just R1a, came to Europe during the Bronze Age and not the Neolithic.

The strong point of this new study is the depth of the subclades tested. The weak point is the sample size, which would be enough for top-level haplogroups, but is much too small to give a reliable image of the distribution of deep subclades. The deeper the level tested and the larger the sample size should be. There are only about 900 individuals for a country of 60 million inhabitants with a very big historical population. This is less than the Larmuseau et al. study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21036685) about Flanders which was barely sufficient to show regional disparities at the deep subclade level. Besides the regional diversity in mountainous Italy is far greater than in flat and homogeneous Flanders. I would therefore advise a sample size of at least 1000 for each of Italy's 20 regions to have a reasonable picture at the deep clade level.

Of interest, though to take with a pinch of salt considering the small sample size.

- The hotspot of R1b-L21 (10%) is Emilia-Romagna, a region supposedly settled by Celtic people.

- The highest frequency of R1b-U152 + subclades are found in Tuscany (37.4%), Emilia-Romagna (31%), Piedmont-Lombardy (31%) and Lazio-Umbria-Marche (21%). This roughly correspond to my R1b-U152 map (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#R1b-S28) and is in line with my hypothesis (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S28-U152) that U152 represents the Bronze Age Italic people. If U152 were merely Gaulish Celtic it wouldn't peak in Tuscany and would not be so high in Central Italy in general.

- Germanic migrations can be traced back through R1b-S21, which peaks in Northeast Italy (presumably due to the Langobardi) and Sicily (undeniably because of the Normans). I1 peaks in Emilia-Romagna (11%) and Northeast Italy (10.3%), but is oddly very low in Lombardy-Piedmont (3.1%) and Sicily (1.4%). I guess that this is due to undersampling. My data from other studies had an average of 3% for Sicily. The strangest results come from I2b1 (M223), which is absent from regions with heavy Germanic settlements like Northeast Italy, but highest in southern Italy (2.4%). Also undersampling, I suppose.

- The regional percentages reported for R1a are somewhat contradictory with previous studies. It shows no R1a at all in Northeast Italy, which is supposed to be the region with the highest frequency of R1a. On the other hand the percentages for Sicily (5.7%), Tuscany (4.9%), South Italy (4%) and Lazio-Umbria-Marche (3.9%) is a few points higher than expected.

- Unsurprisingly G peaks in Central Italy (14.3%) and South Italy (16.2%) and is lowest in Northeast Italy (6.8%) and Tuscany (5.7%). On the other hand, the frequency of G appears a bit higher everywhere than in the earlier data.

- Let's note also the very odd 8.2% of L in Northeast Italy and 6.9% of J1e in Bologna. The earlier J1 hotspot in Tuscany is also contradicted by this study, which only found 1.4%.

Maciamo
01-06-13, 22:04
Here is the mtDNA table from the supplementary data.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/data/Italy-mtDNA-Boattini-2013.png

zanipolo
01-06-13, 22:26
Here is the mtDNA table from the supplementary data.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/data/Italy-mtDNA-Boattini-2013.png

Thanks for this

I was wondering that NEI is correctly a home for T1a and K1a ........the H seems infrequent and could be said to have come in via the veneti men marrying celtic women as per the uni of heidelberg 2012 paper on the venetic language. ( i am only referring to mtDna)
Could the celts be the bringers of H into Italy......IIRC Italy is one of the lowest for H in percentage terms.


The "baltic" U seems also in high numbers, again longobardi/goth migration

adamo
01-06-13, 22:31
I am maternal H, with no further mutations. I think celts brought that into Italy

adamo
01-06-13, 22:33
I am maternal H, with no further mutations. I think celts brought that into Italy. The highest in Italy are HV, H, H1 and K1a.

Nobody1
02-06-13, 01:45
Concerning your remark just above, are you serious or making joke?

all the way, modern militar occupations need a very long time before producing genetic noticeable modifications among the occupied population: it recalls me an aggregationed (?) teacher that told us the modern Bavarians were darker than other Germans because they had been occupied by french troups! So ridiculous!

Oh, you mean the Irish-American soldier ref;
who knows, def. not an option that is the primary, but an option nonetheless;


Umbrians I think were the last italic tribes to reach Italy – I doubt they were linked too close to the Lake Dwelling people I link rather to Ligurians:

I dont know, why you consider the Umbrians as the the last Indo-European wave, given what the classical authors wrote:

Pliny - Natural History (79 AD)
The race of the Umbri is considered the oldest in Italy. —(C. Plin. lib. ii. Nat. Hist. c. 14.)

Dionysius - The Roman Antiquities (29 BC)
The Umbri inhabited a great many other parts of Italy, and were an exceeding great, and ancient people.

Cambrian Institute - The Cambrian Journal (1862)
from Caius Sempronius (De Divis. Ital.);
"The portion of the Apennines from the sources of the Tiber to the Nar, the Umbri inhabit, the oldest stock of the Old Gael, (Veteres Galli), as Augustus writes."
[Apenninum colunt Ligures, portionem vero Apennini inhabitant Umbri, prima veterum Gallorum proies, ut Augustus scribit]

Also, the Herodotus map only mentions the Ombri - [next to Thyrreni, Eneti, Ligyes]
http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/Ancientimages/109B.JPG


The Ligurians are a key people in the Po valley, (also Rhone Valley and Maritime Alps);
It seems that the Ligurians were already present in the Neolithic and were [Brachycephalic] Pre-Indo-Europeans akin to Lapps.

Smithsonian Institution - Report of the Board of Regents: Vol.45 (1891)
In another Neolithic cave, called the Caverna della Matta [north Italy], an Iberian skull was found with an index of 68, and a Ligurian skull with an index of 84. No anthropologist would admit that these skulls could have belonged to men of the same race.

Roberto Bosi - The Lapps (1977)
Then [Rudolf Karl] Virchow. examining a number of Lappish skulls at Helsinki, Lund and Copenhagen, in conjunction with ancient Ligurian skulls, discovered many mutual features suggesting an identical strain.

The Umbrians must have mixed with the Ligurians,
as [B]Plutarch informs us that the Ligurians referred to themselves as AMBROnes in connections to their Origins;

Anthropological evidence:

Anthropological Society of London - Anthropological review: Vol.V (1867)
"when I look upon the delineations of the crania, the photographs and the figures given by M. Nicolucci himself, it appears to me that the difference between Ligurians and Umbrians, is about equal to the differences between Allemands and Germans.

The same scenario happened in the Swiss Lake Dwellings - Indo-Europeans mixed with a Brachycephalic (pos. Ligures) Pre-Indo-European people.

George Bradshaw - Bradshaw's illustrated hand-book to Switzerland and the Tyrol (1899)
Swiss Lake-dwellings - In his careful investigations of pile dwellings, Dr. Studer met with two extreme types of skulls, the brachycephalic and the dolikoccphalic; the former, at Schaffis and Lüschery (Lake of Bienne), belonging to the pure Stone period, and the latter, at Vinolz and Sutz, to the Bronze period. The facts point to an invasion by the Bronze men, involving a complete transformation of the group of domestic animals; the horse appears for the first time, and new races of sheep and dogs replace the older forms of the Stone period. The occurrence of mesocephalic, and even considerably shortened skulls, in the Bronze period, shows that there was no extinction of the brachycephalic race, but that the two races mixed.

I will post more about the Ligures in History & Civilisations > Who were the Sabines?


Personally, i think the last Indo-Europeans arriving in Italy were
the Illyrians in the South-East [Messapii / Iapyges]



A SAY HERE THAT ONE MORE TIME THE SURVEYS MIXED DIVERSE POPULATIONS / I DO NOT THINK COASTAL MODERN LIGURIANS (they are not the most Ligurians, Ligurians were more in highlands) ARE VERY CLOSE TO PIEMONTESES, YET SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT FROM RURAL "LOMBARDS" - the Y-E1b seems very stronger among modern so called "Ligurians" than among Lombards or Emilians or NE Toscans - but the problem is the coast of this sort of survey and the samples sufficient to do it
Have a good time this evening

I disagree about your Y-DNA Hg E analysis.
Area I = Liguria + Lombardy + Piedmont and is only high on E-V13 [9.3%]
1.8% other E-M78 sub-clades and 0.6% E-M123; thats all;
- so i wouldnt consider Liguria isolated to be any stronger;

I agree with your view about the present-Ligurians in contrast to the ancient-Ligurians;
but there is an historic region Lunigiana that was/is still very remote and has a grand ancient-Ligurian (Archaeological) Legacy.
One sample-set of Tuscany (in Boattini et al 2013) is from that region. Tuscany being 37% R1b-U152

Nobody1
02-06-13, 01:57
I am maternal H, with no further mutations. I think celts brought that into Italy

I doubt it was the Indo-European Kelts,

Both Maciamo and zanipolo posted studies about the spread of mtDNA Hg H being West to East and having a grand occurrence during the Bell Beaker Culture [non-Indo-European].

the Study (Boattini et al 2013) also concludes:

Significantly different ages were estimated for mtDNA and Y-chromosome systems. mtDNA variability dates back to Paleolithic and supports the existence of an Italian human Refugium during the last glacial maximum whereas Y-chromosome points to the importance that the demographic events happened during the Neolithic and the Metal Ages had in the male Italian patterns of diversity and distribution.

something that also the second link from zanipolo post #1- indicates
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/italan-complex-ancestry.html#comment-form

It grouped the percentages (of Boattini et al 2013) together and gave it a time-line.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Vj8EUEPAp4k/UahlrsjWbOI/AAAAAAAAB5Q/tSVJhClSBB4/s640/Italy+mtDNA+synthesis.png


acc. to Boattini et al 2013, mtDNA HG H is very consistant across Italy - North is 34% & 26%, Center is 31% and South is 27%.

It is also very high in Sicily 38% and peaks in Sardinia 41%; this further manifest/indicates a non-Indo-European spread;

Maybe it spread from Iberia to Sardinia and from Sardinia to - Italy & Sicily. my guess;

---

From all what i have read about mtDNA Hg H, it seems very old (Paleolithic) and pos. originated in the ?Near East?:

Torroni et al 1998 -
(maybe outdated? but i dont think so!)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9545392

Luan
02-06-13, 04:33
I doubt it was the Indo-European Kelts,

Both Maciamo and zanipolo posted studies about the spread of mtDNA Hg H being West to East and having a grand occurrence during the Bell Beaker Culture [non-Indo-European].

the Study (Boattini et al 2013) also concludes:

Significantly different ages were estimated for mtDNA and Y-chromosome systems. mtDNA variability dates back to Paleolithic and supports the existence of an Italian human Refugium during the last glacial maximum whereas Y-chromosome points to the importance that the demographic events happened during the Neolithic and the Metal Ages had in the male Italian patterns of diversity and distribution.

something that also the second link from zanipolo post #1- indicates
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/italan-complex-ancestry.html#comment-form

It grouped the percentages (of Boattini et al 2013) together and gave it a time-line.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Vj8EUEPAp4k/UahlrsjWbOI/AAAAAAAAB5Q/tSVJhClSBB4/s640/Italy+mtDNA+synthesis.png


acc. to Boattini et al 2013, mtDNA HG H is very consistant across Italy - North is 34% & 26%, Center is 31% and South is 27%.

It is also very high in Sicily 38% and peaks in Sardinia 41%; this further manifest/indicates a non-Indo-European spread;

Maybe it spread from Iberia to Sardinia and from Sardinia to - Italy & Sicily. my guess;

---

From all what i have read about mtDNA Hg H, it seems very old (Paleolithic) and pos. originated in the ?Near East?:

Torroni et al 1998 -
(maybe outdated? but i dont think so!)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9545392
How you think MtDNA H got to the balkans?

Nobody1
02-06-13, 05:11
How you think MtDNA H got to the balkans?

I think that all depends on how 'up to date' - Torroni et al 1998 still is;
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9545392

haplogroup, H, which is distributed throughout the entire range of Caucasoid populations and which originated in the Near East approximately 25,000-30,000 years ago, also took part in this expansion, thus rendering it by far the most frequent (40%-60%) haplogroup in western Europe. Subsequent migrations after the Younger Dryas eventually carried those "Atlantic" mtDNAs into central and northern Europe.

If it originated in the Near East; maybe via Anatolia or maybe (like north & central Eur.) after the Younger Dryas;

Here are 2 other studies about mtDNA H

Roostalu et al 2007
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/2/436.full.pdf+html
Achilli et al 2004
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182122/

Yetos
02-06-13, 10:17
@ nobody so is it possible umbrians to spoke a sicilian language? a non IE language? in case we accept that IE came from North?

can we admit the same in case IE came from minor Asia?

zanipolo
02-06-13, 10:45
@ nobody so is it possible umbrians to spoke a sicilian language? a non IE language? in case we accept that IE came from North?

can we admit the same in case IE came from minor Asia?

I don't think the umbrians spoke sicilian. Italian records follow ancient greek history which states .
italy is only from the Po river to the toe of Italy, these are italian lands, they comprise of 2 main families the oscars in the south and the umbrians in the north.
greeks also stated that beyond the PO where barbarians........and no mention of sicilians, or sardinians and corsica was colonised by Greeks.

The greeks named Italy
The greeks also stated the etruscans invaded Italy and corsica

well thats the ancient historians

Yetos
02-06-13, 11:17
I don't think the umbrians spoke sicilian. Italian records follow ancient greek history which states .
italy is only from the Po river to the toe of Italy, these are italian lands, they comprise of 2 main families the oscars in the south and the umbrians in the north.
greeks also stated that beyond the PO where barbarians........and no mention of sicilians, or sardinians and corsica was colonised by Greeks.

The greeks named Italy
The greeks also stated the etruscans invaded Italy and corsica

well thats the ancient historians

so sicilian languages where limited only in Sicily?

since Herodotus mentions them as pre-cataclysm people, do you believe they spoke IE?

Maciamo
02-06-13, 11:38
I doubt it was the Indo-European Kelts,

Both Maciamo and zanipolo posted studies about the spread of mtDNA Hg H being West to East and having a grand occurrence during the Bell Beaker Culture [non-Indo-European].

the Study (Boattini et al 2013) also concludes:

Significantly different ages were estimated for mtDNA and Y-chromosome systems. mtDNA variability dates back to Paleolithic and supports the existence of an Italian human Refugium during the last glacial maximum whereas Y-chromosome points to the importance that the demographic events happened during the Neolithic and the Metal Ages had in the male Italian patterns of diversity and distribution.

something that also the second link from zanipolo post #1- indicates
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/italan-complex-ancestry.html#comment-form

It grouped the percentages (of Boattini et al 2013) together and gave it a time-line.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Vj8EUEPAp4k/UahlrsjWbOI/AAAAAAAAB5Q/tSVJhClSBB4/s640/Italy+mtDNA+synthesis.png


acc. to Boattini et al 2013, mtDNA HG H is very consistant across Italy - North is 34% & 26%, Center is 31% and South is 27%.

It is also very high in Sicily 38% and peaks in Sardinia 41%; this further manifest/indicates a non-Indo-European spread;

Maybe it spread from Iberia to Sardinia and from Sardinia to - Italy & Sicily. my guess;

---

From all what i have read about mtDNA Hg H, it seems very old (Paleolithic) and pos. originated in the ?Near East?:

Torroni et al 1998 -
(maybe outdated? but i dont think so!)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9545392

I think it's a mistake to lump all H lineages together. H subclades can represent ancestry as different as Y-DNA haplogroups of their own. It is undeniable that Mesolithic Europeans, Neolithic farmers and the Indo-Europeans all carried their own subclades of H, because ancient DNA tests have found H among all these people.

Regarding the Indo-Europeans, it may be hard to clearly distinguish Indo-European H subclades from Neolithic ones, as both originated in the Middle East. Their frequency in each group and the deep subclades are probably both different though. Because Indo-Europeans mixed with neolithic and Mesolithic inhabitants of Europe, we can't know for sure which is which based on results from Bronze Age cultures within Europe. I think that the most representative H samples to determine which one travelled with the original Indo-Europeans of the Maykop + Yamna culture are those from the Bronze Age and Iron Age Eurasian steppes and the Andronovo culture of Central Asia. So far the H subclade identified among the many H samples from that time and age were H2a1, H5 and H6. H5, and H5a in particular, also frequently pops up in Indo-European settlements in Eastern and Central Europe. H7 is another likely IE candidate. However keep in mind that all of them could also be Neolithic. There is no IE exclusivity.

In the present study, H5 peaks in Central Italy and is completely absent from Sardinia. H6 peaks in Tuscany and Bologna and is also absent from Sardinia (and Sicily). Both therefore look good IE candidates in Italy too.

In any case trying to make sense of all these mtDNA subclades is madness at this point. Only some subclades like U2, U4, U5 and U6 are reasonably clear-cut from the rest to represent meaningful ancestry. Even well studied haplogroups like H1, H3 and V still have very controversial origins. They could be Paleo-, Meso- or Neolithic. Or more likely the were Paleolithic in one part of Europe (e.g. Iberia) but spread to the rest of Europe during the Neolithic.

U2, U3 and U4, which I have all associated with the Indo-Europeans, are all absent from Sardinia.

U8 and K obviously date from the Neolithic and Bronze Age. I don't know why they are labelled as 'Paleo'.

Nobody1
02-06-13, 12:18
@ nobody so is it possible umbrians to spoke a sicilian language? a non IE language? in case we accept that IE came from North?

can we admit the same in case IE came from minor Asia?

No,
that is not possible -and i dont understand the connection;

Ancient Sicily =
Iberian Sicani - Ligurian Siculi - Trojan Elymians (Thucydides) - plus
Phoenician Colonies and Greek Colonies

http://imageshack.us/a/img209/8526/sic1.png

---

The Umbrians were Indo-Europeans, akin to the Indo-European Kelts

Cambrian Institute - The Cambrian Journal (1862)
from Caius Sempronius (De Divis. Ital.);
"The portion of the Apennines from the sources of the Tiber to the Nar, the Umbri inhabit, the oldest stock of the Old Gael, (Veteres Galli), as Augustus writes."
[Apenninum colunt Ligures, portionem vero Apennini inhabitant Umbri, prima veterum Gallorum proies, ut Augustus scribit]

James C. Prichard - Ethnography of Europe: Vol.III (1841)
Solinus informs us that Bocchus, a writer who has been several times cited by Pliny, reported the Umbri to have been descended from the ancient Gauls;

[Umbri, Italiae gens est, sed Gallorum veterum propago]

Luke Owen Pike - The English and their Origin (1866)
If now we consult the Umbrian language with a view of discovering whether it approaches more nearly the Gaelic or the Cymric type, we find, scanty though the evidence may be, that Umbrian differs from Latin in precisely the same manner in which Cymric and Greek differ from Latin. The Latin qu becomes, in Umbrian, as in Welsh and Greek, p: e.g. Latin quatuor, Umbrian petur, Welsh pedwar. The Welsh uch, uchel, appears as the Umbrian ucar, the Greek aixpog; the Welsh hwra as the Umbrian hri, the Greek aipsco;


Archaeologically - attested by the Bronze Age Terremare culture (akin to Swiss Lake Dwellings) and the subsequent cultures of the Indo-European Urnfield Culture Complex [Villanovan - Golasecca]


The Umbrian language is attested by its dozens of inscriptions and texts -
http://www.ancientscripts.com/umbrian.html

http://imageshack.us/a/img13/8729/languages.png


[B]Umbrian [I]Alphabet (derived from the Etruscan runic system of the Cumaean Greek Alphabet)

http://www.ancientscripts.com/images/umbrian.gif

Nobody1
02-06-13, 12:30
I think it's a mistake to lump all H lineages together. H subclades can represent ancestry as different as Y-DNA haplogroups of their own. It is undeniable that Mesolithic Europeans, Neolithic farmers and the Indo-Europeans all carried their own subclades of H, because ancient DNA tests have found H among all these people.

Regarding the Indo-Europeans, it may be hard to clearly distinguish Indo-European H subclades from Neolithic ones, as both originated in the Middle East. Their frequency in each group and the deep subclades are probably both different though. Because Indo-Europeans mixed with neolithic and Mesolithic inhabitants of Europe, we can't know for sure which is which based on results from Bronze Age cultures within Europe. I think that the most representative H samples to determine which one travelled with the original Indo-Europeans of the Maykop + Yamna culture are those from the Bronze Age and Iron Age Eurasian steppes and the Andronovo culture of Central Asia. So far the H subclade identified among the many H samples from that time and age were H2a1, H5 and H6. H5, and H5a in particular, also frequently pops up in Indo-European settlements in Eastern and Central Europe. H7 is another likely IE candidate. However keep in mind that all of them could also be Neolithic. There is no IE exclusivity.

In the present study, H5 peaks in Central Italy and is completely absent from Sardinia. H6 peaks in Tuscany and Bologna and is also absent from Sardinia (and Sicily). Both therefore look good IE candidates in Italy too............U2, U3 and U4, which I have all associated with the Indo-Europeans, are all absent from Sardinia.


Thats a good point, i didnt think of that.


In any case trying to make sense of all these mtDNA subclades is madness at this point. Only some subclades like U2, U4, U5 and U6 are reasonably clear-cut from the rest to represent meaningful ancestry. Even well studied haplogroups like H1, H3 and V still have very controversial origins. They could be Paleo-, Meso- or Neolithic. Or more likely the were Paleolithic in one part of Europe (e.g. Iberia) but spread to the rest of Europe during the Neolithic.


Thats the way i understand it as well,
the routes of mtDNA Hg sub-clades are far less structured than those of Y-DNA;

But fortunately many mtDNA Hg's [H, V, U, J, T] are as a whole, -structured and determined.
But thats still not very precise.

Taranis
02-06-13, 13:50
I have moved the offtopic discussion about current events to here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28651-(OFFTOPIC-from-Italian-Genetics)). You are welcome to continue to discuss it there, but it does not belong into this thread.

Yetos
02-06-13, 15:54
@ considering that all ancient writers mention them as very old in area, herodotus comsiders them as before cataclysm,

then we have a subject on how old is IE in Italy,
I mean can we guess or exctract a resume, on Italian linguistics by that?

I mean if umbrians are so old, means that the other languages are younger, right?

I am not focusing in something, simply, I am wondering,

Yaan
02-06-13, 20:54
I was about to post this, but Zanipolo beat me to it.

Here is the link to the actual study (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441). The data corresponds very closely to the one I compiled in the Y-DNA tables based on other studies to date. Boattini et al. note that the gradient within Italy is not north-south but rather north-west to south-east + Sardinia, which is exactly what my maps have shown. You can see this most clearly by comparing the R1 map (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#R1) with the E+G+J+T map (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#EGJT).

The authors confirm that most Y-DNA lineages in Italy appear to date from the Late Neolithic to the Bronze Age. This is the first official study finally acknowledging what I have been saying for many years, namely that R1b and J2, and not just R1a, came to Europe during the Bronze Age and not the Neolithic.


The strong point of this new study is the depth of the subclades tested. The weak point is the sample size, which would be enough for top-level haplogroups, but is much too small to give a reliable image of the distribution of deep subclades. The deeper the level tested and the larger the sample size should be. There are only about 900 individuals for a country of 60 million inhabitants with a very big historical population. This is less than the Larmuseau et al. study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21036685) about Flanders which was barely sufficient to show regional disparities at the deep subclade level. Besides the regional diversity in mountainous Italy is far greater than in flat and homogeneous Flanders. I would therefore advise a sample size of at least 1000 for each of Italy's 20 regions to have a reasonable picture at the deep clade level.

Of interest, though to take with a pinch of salt considering the small sample size.

- The hotspot of R1b-L21 (10%) is Emilia-Romagna, a region supposedly settled by Celtic people.

- The highest frequency of R1b-U152 + subclades are found in Tuscany (37.4%), Emilia-Romagna (31%), Piedmont-Lombardy (31%) and Lazio-Umbria-Marche (21%). This roughly correspond to my R1b-U152 map (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#R1b-S28) and is in line with my hypothesis (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S28-U152) that U152 represents the Bronze Age Italic people. If U152 were merely Gaulish Celtic it wouldn't peak in Tuscany and would not be so high in Central Italy in general.

- Germanic migrations can be traced back through R1b-S21, which peaks in Northeast Italy (presumably due to the Langobardi) and Sicily (undeniably because of the Normans). I1 peaks in Emilia-Romagna (11%) and Northeast Italy (10.3%), but is oddly very low in Lombardy-Piedmont (3.1%) and Sicily (1.4%). I guess that this is due to undersampling. My data from other studies had an average of 3% for Sicily. The strangest results come from I2b1 (M223), which is absent from regions with heavy Germanic settlements like Northeast Italy, but highest in southern Italy (2.4%). Also undersampling, I suppose.

- The regional percentages reported for R1a are somewhat contradictory with previous studies. It shows no R1a at all in Northeast Italy, which is supposed to be the region with the highest frequency of R1a. On the other hand the percentages for Sicily (5.7%), Tuscany (4.9%), South Italy (4%) and Lazio-Umbria-Marche (3.9%) is a few points higher than expected.

- Unsurprisingly G peaks in Central Italy (14.3%) and South Italy (16.2%) and is lowest in Northeast Italy (6.8%) and Tuscany (5.7%). On the other hand, the frequency of G appears a bit higher everywhere than in the earlier data.

- Let's note also the very odd 8.2% of L in Northeast Italy and 6.9% of J1e in Bologna. The earlier J1 hotspot in Tuscany is also contradicted by this study, which only found 1.4%.
So r u going to upgrade the results page on the page
I1 2.5%- from new sample 3.52% so 1 % more
I2+I2a-3% from new sample 5.65% so almost 3% more
I2b-1% from the new sample- 1.02%-perfect
R1a-2.5% from the new sample- 3.39% so 1 % more
R1b-49%- from the new sample- 38.7% so 10% less
G2a- 7%- from the new sample- 11.65% so almost 5% more
J2- 18%- from the new sample- 13.58% so 4.5% less
J1- 2%- from the new sample- 3.62% so 1.5% more
E1b1b-11%- from the new sample- 13.91% so 3% more
T-4% - from the new sample- 2.37% so 1.5% less
I do not think L in North east Italy is odd, L is found in Switzerland and Austria so logical.
Also would u change the data for Bulgarian u did not based it solely on the new research but mixed it with unreliable Family Tree etc,
I2 +I2a for Bulgarians is not 19.5% but 20.6%
R1a for Bulgarians is not 17% but 17.7 or even better 18%
J2 for Bulgarians is not 11% but 10.5
J1 is slightly more maybe 3.5
but
E1b1b for Bulgarians is not 24% but 22.1%
Thanks. :)

MOESAN
02-06-13, 23:01
Oh, you mean the Irish-American soldier ref;
who knows, def. not an option that is the primary, but an option nonetheless;



I dont know, why you consider the Umbrians as the the last Indo-European wave, given what the classical authors wrote:

Pliny - Natural History (79 AD)
The race of the Umbri is considered the oldest in Italy. —(C. Plin. lib. ii. Nat. Hist. c. 14.)

Dionysius - The Roman Antiquities (29 BC)
The Umbri inhabited a great many other parts of Italy, and were an exceeding great, and ancient people.

Cambrian Institute - The Cambrian Journal (1862)
from Caius Sempronius (De Divis. Ital.);
"The portion of the Apennines from the sources of the Tiber to the Nar, the Umbri inhabit, the oldest stock of the Old Gael, (Veteres Galli), as Augustus writes."
[Apenninum colunt Ligures, portionem vero Apennini inhabitant Umbri, prima veterum Gallorum proies, ut Augustus scribit]

Also, the Herodotus map only mentions the Ombri - [next to Thyrreni, Eneti, Ligyes]
http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/Ancientimages/109B.JPG


The Ligurians are a key people in the Po valley, (also Rhone Valley and Maritime Alps);
It seems that the Ligurians were already present in the Neolithic and were [Brachycephalic] Pre-Indo-Europeans akin to Lapps.

Smithsonian Institution - Report of the Board of Regents: Vol.45 (1891)
In another Neolithic cave, called the Caverna della Matta [north Italy], an Iberian skull was found with an index of 68, and a Ligurian skull with an index of 84. No anthropologist would admit that these skulls could have belonged to men of the same race.

Roberto Bosi - The Lapps (1977)
Then [Rudolf Karl] Virchow. examining a number of Lappish skulls at Helsinki, Lund and Copenhagen, in conjunction with ancient Ligurian skulls, discovered many mutual features suggesting an identical strain.

The Umbrians must have mixed with the Ligurians,
as [B]Plutarch informs us that the Ligurians referred to themselves as AMBROnes in connections to their Origins;

Anthropological evidence:

Anthropological Society of London - Anthropological review: Vol.V (1867)
"when I look upon the delineations of the crania, the photographs and the figures given by M. Nicolucci himself, it appears to me that the difference between Ligurians and Umbrians, is about equal to the differences between Allemands and Germans.

The same scenario happened in the Swiss Lake Dwellings - Indo-Europeans mixed with a Brachycephalic (pos. Ligures) Pre-Indo-European people.

George Bradshaw - Bradshaw's illustrated hand-book to Switzerland and the Tyrol (1899)
Swiss Lake-dwellings - In his careful investigations of pile dwellings, Dr. Studer met with two extreme types of skulls, the brachycephalic and the dolikoccphalic; the former, at Schaffis and Lüschery (Lake of Bienne), belonging to the pure Stone period, and the latter, at Vinolz and Sutz, to the Bronze period. The facts point to an invasion by the Bronze men, involving a complete transformation of the group of domestic animals; the horse appears for the first time, and new races of sheep and dogs replace the older forms of the Stone period. The occurrence of mesocephalic, and even considerably shortened skulls, in the Bronze period, shows that there was no extinction of the brachycephalic race, but that the two races mixed.

I will post more about the Ligures in History & Civilisations > Who were the Sabines?


Personally, i think the last Indo-Europeans arriving in Italy were
the Illyrians in the South-East [Messapii / Iapyges]




I disagree about your Y-DNA Hg E analysis.
Area I = Liguria + Lombardy + Piedmont and is only high on E-V13 [9.3%]
1.8% other E-M78 sub-clades and 0.6% E-M123; thats all;
- so i wouldnt consider Liguria isolated to be any stronger;

I agree with your view about the present-Ligurians in contrast to the ancient-Ligurians;
but there is an historic region Lunigiana that was/is still very remote and has a grand ancient-Ligurian (Archaeological) Legacy.
One sample-set of Tuscany (in Boattini et al 2013) is from that region. Tuscany being 37% R1b-U152

classical writers wrote useful things sometimes and too a lot of unprecise testimonies - we cannot neither totally reject nor accept their testimonies - I see here no proof of very early presenc eof Umbrians in Italy, sorry -
concerning sampling I affirm and say again this survey as other ones (for money reasons) mix in the same bag regions classical anthropologists knew as diverse (and historians knew too) -
I agree totally Ligurians were a mix of pre-I-Eans with new arrived I-Eans
my thoughts concerning Umbrians are based on several archeologic surveys, but I agree archeologic remnant sdo not tell us their precise cultural affiliation...
So i write here and there my "religion", I do not say I KNOW...
Myu thought is: if Terramare were not under latin or akin influence, then, when arrived Latins and Sabins???
on the linguistic side, I think the P- I-E languages bearers came after the Kw- ones spite the new "wave" of thinking... and Osques and Umbrians as La Tene Celts and Dorians were *P-I-E speakers; before the opposite proof will be send...





s

Nobody1
03-06-13, 04:42
@Moesan @Yetos


The Bronze Age Terremare culture is the oldest (substantial / after Remedello II) Indo-European culture [1500-1100 BC] in Italy (Po Valley);

Paul MacKendrick - The Mute Stones Speak (1962)
The terremare are important: they preserve the memory of an immigrant population, distinct in culture from the aborigines. The distinguishing marks of this new culture are knowledge of metal-working, a pottery identifiable by its exaggerated half-moon handles, and the practice of cremation rather than inhumation. On the evidence, we must suppose that this new culture emerged about 1500 B.C. as a fusion of indigenous hut-dwellers and immigrant lakedwellers. Bronze (Horse) bits found in their settlements show that they had domesticated the horse, and there is some evidence, outside the terremare, for dogs as well, described by Randall-Maclver as "doubtless good woolly animals of a fair size."

Isaac Taylor (-based on Helbig) attests a direct Umbrian connection with the Archaeological fundamentals akin to the Swiss Lake Dwellings,

also Linguistically attested:

Franz Altheim - Grundlagen und Grundbegriffe (1956)
Später wurden die Ligurer von einem Stamm indogermanischer Herkunft überschichtet: den Ambronen. Ihr Name hat sich in zahlreichen Resten innerhalb des gesamtligurischen Gebietes erhalten.
TRANSLATION -
Later, the Ligurians were overlaid by a tribe of Indo-European origin: the Ambrones.
Their name has been preserved in numerous residues within the total Ligurian region.


Historically, all the ancient authors credit the Indo-European Umbrians as the oldest stock,
so it is also logical to assume the earliest emergence of the Indo-European Umbrians to be with the earliest Indo-European culture [Terremare 1500 BC -1100 BC]

However;
If you consider that the Terremare (beginning 1500 BC) is too early; than (latest) the Indo-European Urnfield Cultures [Villanova - Golasecca - Este] emerging ~1300 BC; def. signals the arrival of the Indo-European Umbrians.

So its a question between 1500 BC and 1300 BC;



I think the P- I-E languages bearers came after the Kw- ones spite the new "wave" of thinking... and Osques and Umbrians as La Tene Celts and Dorians were *P-I-E speakers; before the opposite proof will be send...


The Umbrians were def. in Italy with the emergence of the Urnfield Cultures ~1300 BC / [I]pos. even emergence of Terremare ~1500 BC / long before the Iron-Age (LaTene) Gallic migrations ~400 BC

The Hellenic Dorians only had an impact in Magna Graecia Sicily,
Magna Graecia Italy was largely Ionian / Achaean - Tarentum was Doric

---
The Sabines are an Umbrian people - History & Civilisations > Who were the Sabines? - p.1 - post # 13

Equally the Insubres (isOMBRI) of the Po Valley are Umbrians - History & Civilisations > Who were the Sabines? - p.1 - post # 18

Their language is attested by the Lepontic inscriptions:
http://www.ancient-celts.com/LanguagesLepontic.html

John T. Koch - The Celts: History, Life, and Culture (2012)
The area occupied by the Golasecca culture is roughly consistent with the Celtic peoples
of the Insubres, Oromobii, and Lepontii mentioned in classical literature.

Prof. Whatmough argued a Ligurian linguistic strain - amongst the Lepontic Inscriptions; also among place and river names:

Franz Altheim - Grundlagen und Grundbegriffe (1956)
Auch die Namen der Rhone und des Po, Rhodanus und Bodincus, des lacus Lemannus und der an ihm gelegenen Stadt *Genua oder Genava sowie das heutige Dialektwort 'calanca' - „Schlucht", dürfen als ligurisch gelten.
TRANSLATION -
The names of the Rhone and the Po, Rhodanus and Bodincus, the lacus Lemannus and the next to him located town *Genua or Genava as well as the current dialect word 'calanca' - "Canyon" may be considered as Ligurian.

---

Linguistically the Umbrians are only attested after they adopted the Etruscan Alphabet [~400 BC]

Umbrian - Oscan - Sabellians are the closest related of the proto-Italic Branch
Latin-Faliscan more distant related (within proto-Italic Branch)

http://www.ancientscripts.com/umbrian.html - ref. Umbrian
http://www.ancientscripts.com/oscan.html - ref. Oscan

Oscan Inscription (Pompeii 2nd cen BC) --- Umbrian Inscription (Gubbio 2nd cen BC)

http://www.ancientscripts.com/images/oscan_text.gifhttp://imageshack.us/a/img836/7029/umbrian1.png



concerning sampling I affirm and say again this survey as other ones (for money reasons) mix in the same bag regions classical anthropologists knew as diverse (and historians knew too) -
I disagree, i think this study chopped the Italian samples in very good manner;
reveals alot about the Historic [Medieval] regions of Italy (Tuscany, Lombardy, Kingdom of Sicily, Papal States, Venetia);

Nobody1
03-06-13, 05:08
@ Yetos


Im not sure which passage of Herodotus you are referring to (cataclysm); are you referring to the "mythical" flood?

Umbrian Origins:

Guy Bradley - Ancient Umbria (2000) [Oxford Uni. Press]
There is an interesting tradition that the name of the Umbrians came from their survival of a mythical flood: see Pliny, NH 3. 112. This tradition could go back at least to Marcus Antonius (Gnipho) in early 1st cent. BC. See Servius, Aen. 12. 753: sane Umbros Gallorum veterum propaginem esse Marcus Antonius refert: hos eosdem, quod tempore aquosae cladis imbribus superfuerunt Ombrous ἡ Ὀμβρική / Ὀμβρικός cognominatos. "Indeed Marcus Antonius reports that the Umbrians are an offspring of the ancient Gauls; and that this same people, because they survived the rains in a time of watery disaster, were called the Ombroi' "

Yetos
03-06-13, 05:57
@ nobody,

mythical flood = κατακλυσμος (cataclysm)

rain = ομβρος = ombros

zanipolo
03-06-13, 07:54
the new split of gedrosia ( west-asian ) due to this new paper

Population N ....Gedrosia ....NW_Afr... Atlantic_Med.... N_Euro... SW_Asian... Caucasus
German_D 18.............. 7.3... 0.... 33 ... 48.2 ...1.7.... 9.8
British_D 11 ............ 11.3.... 0 ....43.5 . 43.6 ..0.3 ... 1.3
English_D 10 ........... 10.6 ... 0 ....41.5 ...44.5.. 0.1 ....3.1
British_Isles_D 8........ 9.5 .... 0 ....42.5 .. 45.7 .. 0 .... 2.2
Irish_D 14................ 11.9..... 0 ... 42.7 ...45.1... 0.... 0.2
French 27................. 7.9..... 0.2 ...44.4 ...36.5 .. 2.5 ..8.4
French_D 13............. 8.1 ... 0.6 ....43.9 .. 36.9 .. 2.7 .. 7.9
French_Basque 21 .... 9.8 .....0 ..... 73.1 .. 17.1... 0 ..... 0
Spanish_D 20............ 6.2 ... 5.1 ...52.5 ....22.7 ...4 .....8.8
Portuguese_D 9........... 6 .....7.7 ....47.5 ....22.3... 5 ... 9.7
N_Italian_D 5 .............5.7 ....0.9 ....41.2 ... 23.7 .. 5.6.. 22.8
North_Italian 11 ......... 4.5 .. 0.7 .... 44 ..... 22...... 5.8 ... 22.9
C_Italian_D 13............ 4.8 ... 2.3 ...34.8 ....17.1.... 8.7 ....32.1
S_Italian_Sicilian_D 10.. 5.5 ... 2.5 ... 29.9 .. 11.8... 12.5 ...36.5
Sicilian_D 15................ 4.5 ... 4.1 .....30..... 11.9 .. 11.9 ....36.5
Sardinian 24 ................ 0...... 2.6 ....70.5..... 0....... 5.8..... 20.9

clearly people moved from persia to british isles over time, mostly in a direct land path.
- D after a name means derived ( original )
- N_italian is NEI other is NWI
- SW_Asian is the arabian peninsula

Of the west-asian...zero in Sardinia ! and also zero in N_euro.
While another chart states that one of the I ( cluster I ) is only a 1207 year old ....either Norman or aragonese

@adamo
someone send me an email stating that 21% of L'Aquila ( abruzzo) has T ydna . i cannot see it. Do you know about these numbers from anywhere?

zanipolo
03-06-13, 08:05
So r u going to upgrade the results page on the page
I1 2.5%- from new sample 3.52% so 1 % more
I2+I2a-3% from new sample 5.65% so almost 3% more
I2b-1% from the new sample- 1.02%-perfect
R1a-2.5% from the new sample- 3.39% so 1 % more
R1b-49%- from the new sample- 38.7% so 10% less
G2a- 7%- from the new sample- 11.65% so almost 5% more
J2- 18%- from the new sample- 13.58% so 4.5% less
J1- 2%- from the new sample- 3.62% so 1.5% more
E1b1b-11%- from the new sample- 13.91% so 3% more
T-4% - from the new sample- 2.37% so 1.5% less
I do not think L in North east Italy is odd, L is found in Switzerland and Austria so logical.
Also would u change the data for Bulgarian u did not based it solely on the new research but mixed it with unreliable Family Tree etc,
I2 +I2a for Bulgarians is not 19.5% but 20.6%
R1a for Bulgarians is not 17% but 17.7 or even better 18%
J2 for Bulgarians is not 11% but 10.5
J1 is slightly more maybe 3.5
but
E1b1b for Bulgarians is not 24% but 22.1%
Thanks. :)


you mean to add to it and not replace it.

He needs to find a way to incorporate the figures

adamo
03-06-13, 08:28
It is true, its on Wikipedia, some 31% of men from Aquila are T+L. It's quite evident at this point that the Umbrians where an early Gallic substratum of celts.

Vallicanus
03-06-13, 09:34
It is true, its on Wikipedia, some 31% of men from Aquila are T+L. It's quite evident at this point that the Umbrians where an early Gallic substratum of celts.

The new Boattini study on Italian uniparental markers has a sample of Y-dna from modern Foligno in Umbria and the figures do not support your claim of a Gallic link in Umbria.

SOURCE: Uniparental Markers in Italy Reveal a Sex-Biased Genetic Structure and Different Historical Strata by Alessio Boattini et alia (2013)

Maciamo
03-06-13, 09:45
It is true, its on Wikipedia

You are not going to convince a lot of people with that kind of argument.

Maciamo
03-06-13, 09:54
So r u going to upgrade the results page on the page
I1 2.5%- from new sample 3.52% so 1 % more
I2+I2a-3% from new sample 5.65% so almost 3% more
I2b-1% from the new sample- 1.02%-perfect
R1a-2.5% from the new sample- 3.39% so 1 % more
R1b-49%- from the new sample- 38.7% so 10% less
G2a- 7%- from the new sample- 11.65% so almost 5% more
J2- 18%- from the new sample- 13.58% so 4.5% less
J1- 2%- from the new sample- 3.62% so 1.5% more
E1b1b-11%- from the new sample- 13.91% so 3% more
T-4% - from the new sample- 2.37% so 1.5% less
I do not think L in North east Italy is odd, L is found in Switzerland and Austria so logical.
Also would u change the data for Bulgarian u did not based it solely on the new research but mixed it with unreliable Family Tree etc,
I2 +I2a for Bulgarians is not 19.5% but 20.6%
R1a for Bulgarians is not 17% but 17.7 or even better 18%
J2 for Bulgarians is not 11% but 10.5
J1 is slightly more maybe 3.5
but
E1b1b for Bulgarians is not 24% but 22.1%
Thanks. :)

My current sample size for Italy of over 5000. It is far more accurate than this study alone. I will add this study when I have time.

Maciamo
03-06-13, 10:03
the new split of gedrosia ( west-asian ) due to this new paper

Population N ....Gedrosia ....NW_Afr... Atlantic_Med.... N_Euro... SW_Asian... Caucasus
German_D 18.............. 7.3... 0.... 33 ... 48.2 ...1.7.... 9.8
British_D 11 ............ 11.3.... 0 ....43.5 . 43.6 ..0.3 ... 1.3
English_D 10 ........... 10.6 ... 0 ....41.5 ...44.5.. 0.1 ....3.1
British_Isles_D 8........ 9.5 .... 0 ....42.5 .. 45.7 .. 0 .... 2.2
Irish_D 14................ 11.9..... 0 ... 42.7 ...45.1... 0.... 0.2
French 27................. 7.9..... 0.2 ...44.4 ...36.5 .. 2.5 ..8.4
French_D 13............. 8.1 ... 0.6 ....43.9 .. 36.9 .. 2.7 .. 7.9
French_Basque 21 .... 9.8 .....0 ..... 73.1 .. 17.1... 0 ..... 0
Spanish_D 20............ 6.2 ... 5.1 ...52.5 ....22.7 ...4 .....8.8
Portuguese_D 9........... 6 .....7.7 ....47.5 ....22.3... 5 ... 9.7
N_Italian_D 5 .............5.7 ....0.9 ....41.2 ... 23.7 .. 5.6.. 22.8
North_Italian 11 ......... 4.5 .. 0.7 .... 44 ..... 22...... 5.8 ... 22.9
C_Italian_D 13............ 4.8 ... 2.3 ...34.8 ....17.1.... 8.7 ....32.1
S_Italian_Sicilian_D 10.. 5.5 ... 2.5 ... 29.9 .. 11.8... 12.5 ...36.5
Sicilian_D 15................ 4.5 ... 4.1 .....30..... 11.9 .. 11.9 ....36.5
Sardinian 24 ................ 0...... 2.6 ....70.5..... 0....... 5.8..... 20.9

clearly people moved from persia to british isles over time, mostly in a direct land path.
- D after a name means derived ( original )
- N_italian is NEI other is NWI
- SW_Asian is the arabian peninsula


That's twisted logic. The Gedrosia admixture is higher in the British Isles because the percentage of R1b is higher there, not because people with Gedrosian admixture arrived there first. When the Indo-Europeans migrated to Western Europe, they replace more thoroughly the populations of the Atlantic fringe, probably because population density was lower and/or because they killed more locals, whatever the reason (more local resistance, less compatible cultures, bigger technological gap, etc.).

The north-south gradient in the Gedrosian admixture in Italy reflects the R1b frequencies. The South has less R1b because the Phoenicians-Carthaginians, the Greeks, then the Arabs, Berbers and Byzantines migrated there after the R1b Italics had settled over the peninsula (circa 1200 BCE).

binx
03-06-13, 10:40
The earlier J1 hotspot in Tuscany is also contradicted by this study, which only found 1.4%.

The J1 hotspot has always been in Marche, not in Tuscany.

binx
03-06-13, 11:05
R1b-L21 in Sicily is surprising: it could be a Normans (of France and Britain) heritage: L21 from W-Norway or from celtic lands (pre-Franks Gaul, celtic Britain) people incorporated into Normans society???

R1b-L21 in Sicily could be also widespread in the Lombard communities arrived in Sicily with the Norman conquest.

Nobody1
03-06-13, 11:27
The new Boattini study on Italian uniparental markers has a sample of Y-dna from modern Foligno in Umbria and the figures do not support your claim of a Gallic link in Umbria.

SOURCE: Uniparental Markers in Italy Reveal a Sex-Biased Genetic Structure and Different Historical Strata by Alessio Boattini et alia (2013)


I dont think he is referring to modern-day Umbria, he is referring to the Indo-European Umbrians;

concerning modern-day Umbria:

Boattini et al 2013

Area V = 77 samples / 37 from Foligno, Umbria

Area V = 19.5% R1b-U152

That would indicate the Indo-European Umbrians ; [I]pos. Sabines
Unfortunately no Y-DNA samples used from Terni, Umbria

zanipolo
03-06-13, 11:47
That's twisted logic. The Gedrosia admixture is higher in the British Isles because the percentage of R1b is higher there, not because people with Gedrosian admixture arrived there first. When the Indo-Europeans migrated to Western Europe, they replace more thoroughly the populations of the Atlantic fringe, probably because population density was lower and/or because they killed more locals, whatever the reason (more local resistance, less compatible cultures, bigger technological gap, etc.).

The north-south gradient in the Gedrosian admixture in Italy reflects the R1b frequencies. The South has less R1b because the Phoenicians-Carthaginians, the Greeks, then the Arabs, Berbers and Byzantines migrated there after the R1b Italics had settled over the peninsula (circa 1200 BCE).

Firstly, Italy's gedrosian are all approx. equal , it cannot be R1b as you say. The atlantic and north euro is higher in the north of Italy than the south. But the south has higher african than the north.
The south has also higher arabian and higher caucasus than the north.

The gedrosian is a migration that seemed to go on until there was no more land........something like the wild west frontier of USA, .....they moved until hitting the pacific.

admixtures are not related to haplogroups
......................

BTW.. the age estimates chart clearly states Italy had G-P15 15000 years of age , next came R-P312 at 7500 years........

julia90
03-06-13, 13:50
One thing is sure, italics people in being infoeuroean and coming from central europe Pannonia area were more phenotypically similar with celts than with non indoeuropean peole in italy from wich italians took the mediterranean phenotype

Yaan
03-06-13, 17:26
My current sample size for Italy of over 5000. It is far more accurate than this study alone. I will add this study when I have time.
But how is this possible?This is the biggest study so far right? I mean where do u have 5000 from? Family Tree and 23andme combination is not good or combining different studies. My opinion is that a good study is a study of minimum 500 non related people from all over the country. I thought this is the only such on Italians. Can u give links to the other good studies please :)

MMaximus
03-06-13, 20:53
Has anyone by chance found the STR's used for the G2a Samples? It appears as table s2 on the PDF of the study but still cannot find it...it would be interesting to see if which of the clusters mentioned L497 falls in to or can be predicted as.

albanopolis
03-06-13, 23:00
One thing is sure, italics people in being infoeuroean and coming from central europe Pannonia area were more phenotypically similar with celts than with non indoeuropean peole in italy from wich italians took the mediterranean phenotype
Its more fair to say that Italy is a coctail of people, very distinct genetically and phenotipycally. Why should be haplogroup R1b be avregaed out when its clear the ratio south to north is 3:1 and clades are different. Countries like Albania have it evenly spread out around the country. So Lega Nord has a valid point when asking for confederation. I am not a Lega fan, but genetically it makes sense.

binx
04-06-13, 00:37
Its more fair to say that Italy is a coctail of people, very distinct genetically and phenotipycally. Why should be haplogroup R1b be avregaed out when its clear the ratio south to north is 3:1 and clades are different. Countries like Albania have it evenly spread out around the country. So Lega Nord has a valid point when asking for confederation. I am not a Lega fan, but genetically it makes sense.

Genetically, Albania is divided in many different haplogroups, the biggest one is E1b E-V13 with 30 % more or less. For the same reason, I guess Albania should be separated or divided into a conferedation.

Albania
I1 2%
I2a 12%
I2b 1,5%
R1a 9%
R1b 16%
G2a 1,5%
J2 19,5%
J1 2%
E1b1b 27,5%
T 1%

binx
04-06-13, 00:40
But how is this possible?This is the biggest study so far right? I mean where do u have 5000 from? Family Tree and 23andme combination is not good or combining different studies. My opinion is that a good study is a study of minimum 500 non related people from all over the country. I thought this is the only such on Italians. Can u give links to the other good studies please :)


5000 sample size considering all the genetics studies about Italy, I think.

albanopolis
04-06-13, 03:00
Genetically, Albania is divided in many different haplogroups, the biggest one is E1b E-V13 with 30 % more or less. For the same reason, I guess Albania should be separated or divided into a conferedation.

Albania
I1 2%
I2a 12%
I2b 1,5%
R1a 9%
R1b 16%
G2a 1,5%
J2 19,5%
J1 2%
E1b1b 27,5%
T 1%
Albanian sample is too small (30 pple), to be taken seriously. R1b should be 2% higher, J is overblown, should be at least 5% lower, I1 should be at least 2% higher.. My estimates come from Albanians in Macedoni studies. When sample became 115 people E in Albanins from macedonia from 38% came down to 32%, but R1a shot up.
Did you find this post helpful?http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/ha_plus.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/helpfulanswers.php?do=rate&postid=391420&rank=1) | http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/ha_minus.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/helpfulanswers.php?do=rate&postid=391420&rank=0)
And this is Y-DNA from Albanians(25% of population Of R. Macedonia) in Macedonia:




Noveski,Trivodalieva, Efremov 2006-09





Y Haplogroup
Macedonians
Albanians
Others
Total


E1b1b1a-M78
15.60%
28.80%
14.30%
19.80%


E1b1b1b-M81
0
1.80%
0
0.60%


E1b1b1c1-M34
2.40%
1.80%
0
2%


G-M201
3.80%
2.70%
4.80%
3.50%


H-M69
1.40%
1.80%
14.30%
2.30%


1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M170
0
1.80%
4.80%
0.90%


I1-M253
1.90%
6.30%
0
3.20%


I2a-P37b
27.50%
1.80%
0
17.50%


I2b1-M223
1.90%
1.80%
4.80%
2%


J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f2
3.30%
1.80%
0
2.60%


J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M172
4.70%
2.70%
9.50%
4.40%


J2a4b-M67
2.80%
2.70%
9.50%
3.20%


J2b2-M241
5.20%
13.50%
4.80%
7.90%


L-M22
0.50%
0%
0
0.30%


N1c-Tat
0.50%
0
0
0.30%


P*(xR1)-92R7
0.50%
0
4.80%
0.60%


R1*-M173
0.50%
0
0
0.30%


R1a1-SRY1532 *moe podolu
14.20%
12.60%
4.80%
13.10%


R1b1-P25
11.40%
18%
23.80%
14.30%


T-M70
1.90%
0
0
1.20%


TOTAL
100.00%
99.90%
100.20%
100.00%


* M448=L122 M459 SRY10831.2=SRY1532.2 | M516=L120 mutations






Its a study by Macedonian Forensic Laboratory. Some Mavedonian member on this forum posted the results. The Albanian section shows big difference from previous studies. And this study too has it shortcomings since 115 people in statistical point of view do not guarantie 2.5% accuracy.
But my point in Italian genetics is that haplogroups are not spread out evenly. North Italia is R1b, R1a majoritty and south Italians are E+G+J+T majority. In Albanian case are more or less even.That's why Lega Nord see themselfs differently and want their Padania Republic, or Venetians for that matter. So Umberto Bossi without being a genetists by training has noted the differences. This was my point. THat geneticaly Italy is a union of more than two people. Culturaly though is one country.

adamo
04-06-13, 04:49
I would say more north-central Italians are R1b dominant, southern Italians are E3b+J2+R1b with G2 being present and T being present at even lower levels than G. The celts of course brought R1b from the north of the alps (north-west particularly.) the Greeks and Etruscans brought J2 ( the latter may have had a minor middle eastern J1+T substratum among them.) the Greeks are also responsible for much E3b (colonies of Magna Grecia) of which the majority is balkanian E-V13, whatever E3b that isn't V-13 probably arrived via north-Africa (Tunisia) being E-M81, as we can see in low % in parts of Sicily ( also has V13). As for hg's T and G they are much more mysterious, G seems to be a very ancient migration from Greece and turkey before that, tracing its way eventually to the mountains of Georgia (P15-G2a). T is even more difficult to figure out; some say its linked to the ancient Canaanite Phoenicians; this is possible as studies are revealing the oldest ages of T seem to be found near the levant and in Iran.

adamo
04-06-13, 04:52
Maybe the Etruscans had scarce/rare J1+T+L elements, as they arrived from Central Asia, maybe that's why some 31% of aquilean men are T+L.

Nobody1
04-06-13, 06:23
I would say more north-central Italians are R1b dominant, southern Italians are E3b+J2+R1b with G2 being present and T being present at even lower levels than G. The celts of course brought R1b from the north of the alps (north-west particularly.) the Greeks and Etruscans brought J2 ( the latter may have had a minor middle eastern J1+T substratum among them.) the Greeks are also responsible for much E3b (colonies of Magna Grecia) of which the majority is balkanian E-V13, whatever E3b that isn't V-13 probably arrived via north-Africa (Tunisia) being E-M81, as we can see in low % in parts of Sicily ( also has V13). As for hg's T and G they are much more mysterious, G seems to be a very ancient migration from Greece and turkey before that, tracing its way eventually to the mountains of Georgia (P15-G2a). T is even more difficult to figure out; some say its linked to the ancient Canaanite Phoenicians; this is possible as studies are revealing the oldest ages of T seem to be found near the levant and in Iran.

Yes, G2a is def. from the Neolithics [Ötzi was G2a2b (L91)]; and its still very consistant across Italy (8.1% North - 16.2% South) and Sardinia (13.4%);

I wouldnt associate E-V13 with the Greeks of Magna Graecia since E-V13 is also high in the North
(9.3% NW - 11% NE);
prob. also Neolithic: From the Near Eat via the Balkans;
Cruciani et al 2007 - p.1307
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html


R1b-L21 in Sicily could be also widespread in the Lombard communities arrived in Sicily with the Norman conquest.

I would assume that the 7.1% R1b-U152 in Sicily is associated with the Medieval Lombards from Lombardy

binx
04-06-13, 08:49
Albanian sample is too small (30 pple), to be taken seriously. R1b should be 2% higher, J is overblown, should be at least 5% lower, I1 should be at least 2% higher.. My estimates come from Albanians in Macedoni studies. When sample became 115 people E in Albanins from macedonia from 38% came down to 32%, but R1a shot up.


That Italy is a country historically and genetically divided with many internal differences is a very well-known fact. Albania is not genetically heterogeneous too, it's also a fact. National identity is not only a genetics matter.

binx
04-06-13, 08:56
- The highest frequency of R1b-U152 + subclades are found in Tuscany (37.4%), Emilia-Romagna (31%), Piedmont-Lombardy (31%) and Lazio-Umbria-Marche (21%). This roughly correspond to my R1b-U152 map (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#R1b-S28) and is in line with my hypothesis (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#S28-U152) that U152 represents the Bronze Age Italic people. If U152 were merely Gaulish Celtic it wouldn't peak in Tuscany and would not be so high in Central Italy in general.

Etruscans settled mainly in Southern Tuscany (roughly south of the river Arno), Northern Latium (roughly north of the river Tevere), Western Umbria (roughly west of the river Tevere). In Northern Tuscany there were also Ligurians and Celts. In Eastern Tuscany there were also Umbrians.

binx
04-06-13, 09:11
I1 only in North East Italy and romagna area



Stronger in North East (9 %) and Bologna (10%) (not Romagna area), but also in North West Italy (3,1 %), Tuscany (2,4), Umbria-Marche (1,5%) and South Italy (2,5%). In any case, all the samples seems to be too small.

binx
04-06-13, 09:14
Yes, G2a is def. from the Neolithics [Ötzi was G2a2b (L91)]; and its still very consistant across Italy (8.1% North - 16.2% South) and Sardinia (13.4%);

I wouldnt associate E-V13 with the Greeks of Magna Graecia since E-V13 is also high in the North
(9.3% NW - 11% NE);
prob. also Neolithic: From the Near Eat via the Balkans;
Cruciani et al 2007 - p.1307
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html

I would assume that the 7.1% R1b-U152 in Sicily is associated with the Medieval Lombards from Lombardy

I completely agree with you. R1b-U152 in Sicily could be associated with the Medieval Lombards from medieval Lombardy (Piedmont, Northern Liguria, modern-day Lombardy, Western Emilia).

Vallicanus
04-06-13, 09:18
Etruscans settled mainly in Southern Tuscany (roughly south of the river Arno), Northern Latium (roughly north of the river Tevere), Western Umbria (roughly east of the river Tevere). In Northern Tuscany there were also Ligurians and Celts. In Eastern Tuscany there were also Umbrians.

WEST of the Tiber (Tevere).:smile:

binx
04-06-13, 09:29
Maybe the Etruscans had scarce/rare J1+T+L elements, as they arrived from Central Asia, maybe that's why some 31% of aquilean men are T+L.

Thomas Jefferson belonged to T haplogroup.

binx
04-06-13, 09:29
WEST of the Tiber (Tevere).:smile:


You're Right. :)

Maciamo
04-06-13, 11:23
Etruscans settled mainly in Southern Tuscany (roughly south of the river Arno), Northern Latium (roughly north of the river Tevere), Western Umbria (roughly west of the river Tevere). In Northern Tuscany there were also Ligurians and Celts. In Eastern Tuscany there were also Umbrians.

The Etruscans came after the Italics and intermingled with them. The Etruscans probably brought various Y-haplogroups like E1b1b, G2a and J2. In any case, R1b-U152 is higher in northern Tuscany than in southern Tuscany, probably because the latter has a higher proportion of Etruscan lineages.

Maciamo
04-06-13, 11:33
Yes, G2a is def. from the Neolithics [Ötzi was G2a2b (L91)]; and its still very consistant across Italy (8.1% North - 16.2% South) and Sardinia (13.4%);

I wouldnt associate E-V13 with the Greeks of Magna Graecia since E-V13 is also high in the North
(9.3% NW - 11% NE);
prob. also Neolithic: From the Near Eat via the Balkans;
Cruciani et al 2007 - p.1307
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html


Actually a lot of E-V13 and J2b in southern Italy (Salento and Calabrian Sila) and along the Adriatic coast can be attributed to the Albanians who settled in those regions from the late Middle Ages onwards. These also happen to be the hotspots for both E1b1b and J2 in Italy. Obviously the Greeks also brought both haplogroups, but the Albanians were the biggest group of immigrants to southern Italy in the last 600 years and surely contributed to raise the frequencies of both haplogroups.

Vallicanus
04-06-13, 11:37
The Etruscans came after the Italics and intermingled with them. The Etruscans probably brought various Y-haplogroups like E1b1b, G2a and J2. In any case, R1b-U152 is higher in northern Tuscany than in southern Tuscany, probably because the latter has a higher proportion of Etruscan lineages.

Maciamo, do we know if the 76pc of R1b in the Garfagnana (NW Tuscany) is mainly R1b-U152?

Maciamo
04-06-13, 11:54
Maciamo, do we know if the 76pc of R1b in the Garfagnana (NW Tuscany) is mainly R1b-U152?

No, it was just PxR1a, so it includes all subclades of R1b and even Q and R2. Anyway the sample size was tiny (n=42) and therefore not very reliable.

However this new study has similar figures for La Spezia-Massa (Northwest Tuscany, only 40 km away from Garfagnana):

- 17 samples out of 24 are R1b (71%)
- 9 samples out of 24 are R1b-U152 (37.5%)

53% of all R1b is R1b-U152.

The 8 other R1b samples are M269 (2x), P312 (4x) and L21 (2x). Mostly Celtic R1b (25% of all haplogroups), although M269 could also be Greek/Albanian or Etruscan/Anatolian.

In contrast there is less R1b in Grosetto-Siena (southern Tuscany):

- 42 out of 86 samples are R1b (49%)
- 32 samples out of 86 are R1b-U152 (37%)

Even though R1b is lower, this time 76% of all R1b is R1b-U152.

Among the 10 other R1b samples we find five Greco-Etruscan M269, four Germanic U106 (incl. one L48), and one Celtic P312. The high proportion of M269 could indeed point to an Etruscan origin. Let's also note the 5% of Germanic R1b.


The sample size from Pistoia (central northern Tuscany) is very small but fits just in between the two other Tuscan regions:

- 8 out of 13 samples are R1b (61.5%)

Among which 5 are U152 (38.5% of the total, or 62.5% of all R1b), 1 is M269, 1 is P312 and 1 is U106.


Amazingly the percentage of R1b-U152 is so-to-say identical in all three Tuscan regions, around 37-38% of all lineages.

This analysis supports the hypothesis that Italic people brought R1b-U152 to Italy.

Just a quick comparison with Umbria.

In Foligno (central-east Umbria):

- 14 of 37 samples are R1b (38%)
- 9 of 37 samples are R1b-U152 (24.5%)

64% of all R1b in Foligno is U152.

zanipolo
04-06-13, 11:55
Stronger in North East (9 %) and Bologna (10%) (not Romagna area), but also in North West Italy (3,1 %), Tuscany (2,4), Umbria-Marche (1,5%) and South Italy (2,5%). In any case, all the samples seems to be too small.

?:confused2:
Bologna (Italian pronunciation: [boˈloɲɲa] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Italian) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/21/Speaker_Icon.svg/13px-Speaker_Icon.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:It-Bologna.ogg) listen (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/It-Bologna.ogg)); Emilian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emiliano-Romagnolo): Bulåggna pronounced [buˈləɲɲa] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA); Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language): Bononia) is the largest city (and the capital (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_city)) of Emilia-Romagna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emilia-Romagna) Region in Northern Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Italy).

The I1 in NEI comes from west-finland satakunda lands. As per STRs
The J1a-410 comes from between north-ossetia and georgia lands and not the levant for NEI. As per STRs
The L-M20 only comes from the Ladins in Friuli and Veneto ( alpine areas )
G2a-P15 is the same in NEI as per other alpine and pyrennes areas
E-V13 in NEI comes from grecian thrace area ( ie North-east Greece)

I left all other data at work...maybe tomorrow if I remember

zanipolo
04-06-13, 11:59
Thomas Jefferson belonged to T haplogroup.

yes, but his line/alleles/STRs was traced from saudi-arabia, through Egypt, ship to Spain, Portugal, wales and USA

binx
04-06-13, 12:12
?:confused2:
Bologna (Italian pronunciation: [boˈloɲɲa] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Italian) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/21/Speaker_Icon.svg/13px-Speaker_Icon.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:It-Bologna.ogg) listen (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/It-Bologna.ogg)); Emilian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emiliano-Romagnolo): Bulåggna pronounced [buˈləɲɲa] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA); Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language): Bononia) is the largest city (and the capital (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_city)) of Emilia-Romagna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emilia-Romagna) Region in Northern Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Italy).

The I1 in NEI comes from west-finland satakunda lands. As per STRs
The J1a-410 comes from between north-ossetia and georgia lands and not the levant for NEI. As per STRs
The L-M20 only comes from the Ladins in Friuli and Veneto ( alpine areas )
G2a-P15 is the same in NEI as per other alpine and pyrennes areas
E-V13 in NEI comes from grecian thrace area ( ie North-east Greece)

I left all other data at work...maybe tomorrow if I remember

Bologna is Emilia, not Romagna.

Romagna starts in the eastern province of Bologna: Borgo Tossignano, Casalfiumanese, Castel del Rio, Dozza, Fontanelice, Imola, Mordano, Monterenzio (frazione Villa Sassonero, nella val Sillaro).

binx
04-06-13, 12:19
Actually a lot of E-V13 and J2b in southern Italy (Salento and Calabrian Sila) and along the Adriatic coast can be attributed to the Albanians who settled in those regions from the late Middle Ages onwards. These also happen to be the hotspots for both E1b1b and J2 in Italy. Obviously the Greeks also brought both haplogroups, but the Albanians were the biggest group of immigrants to southern Italy in the last 600 years and surely contributed to raise the frequencies of both haplogroups.

Salento is a Greek area, few Arbereshe overthere. And Arbereshe are quite different from Albanians according to Boattini A, Luiselli D, Sazzini M, Useli A, Tagarelli G, Pettener D.

Linking Italy and the Balkans. A Y-chromosome perspective from the Arbereshe of Calabria.

http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html



The situation with J2 is also quite interesting as this is rarer in Arbereshe (3%) than Albanians (17%):


The scarcity of J2 chromosomes in the Arbereshe sample (1/40) is very difficult to explain, given that they are very common in both the Italian peninsula and the southern Balkans.






The source of J2 is less clear, and could be either the Albanization of Greeks (the only Balkan population with a sizeable J2 frequency) or remnants of Muslim Anatolians from Ottoman times. However, modern Albanians belong mainly to clade J2b, while Anatolians belong to J2a. Thus, I tend to dismiss the Anatolian connection.

binx
04-06-13, 12:30
The Etruscans came after the Italics and intermingled with them. The Etruscans probably brought various Y-haplogroups like E1b1b, G2a and J2. In any case, R1b-U152 is higher in northern Tuscany than in southern Tuscany, probably because the latter has a higher proportion of Etruscan lineages.

I agree with you. If there is still today in Tuscany an Etruscan genetic inheritance is in southern Tuscany. But southern Tuscany is much less populated than the northern one. So, if It's still alive this Etruscan legacy it has a little impact in the overall Tuscan population. I guess.

albanopolis
04-06-13, 13:15
That Italy is a country historically and genetically divided with many internal differences is a very well-known fact. Albania is not genetically heterogeneous too, it's also a fact. National identity is not only a genetics matter.

I know that. But in Italy all blond people live in North. Dark skined one mostly in South. Genetically translated means R1B i n North and all dark, African originated haplogroups in South. Albania is Majority African originated haplogroups, and they are spread all over. So for a naked eye there is not skin differernce in Albania. In Italy is different. Because of that there are seperatist movements in Italy. I mentioned them. In Albania contrary there are unifying movements with Kosovo. So its pointless to my view to take R1b of North Italia, add R1b of south that appears to be different clade, divide by 2 , and say the avarage is R1b of Italy. Italy for scientific reasons should be studied by regions. Anyway, I know many Italians and myself I prefer the Suoth One.

albanopolis
04-06-13, 15:59
Salento is a Greek area, few Arbereshe overthere. And Arbereshe are quite different from Albanians according to Boattini A, Luiselli D, Sazzini M, Useli A, Tagarelli G, Pettener D.

Linking Italy and the Balkans. A Y-chromosome perspective from the Arbereshe of Calabria.

http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html



The situation with J2 is also quite interesting as this is rarer in Arbereshe (3%) than Albanians (17%):


The scarcity of J2 chromosomes in the Arbereshe sample (1/40) is very difficult to explain, given that they are very common in both the Italian peninsula and the southern Balkans.






The source of J2 is less clear, and could be either the Albanization of Greeks (the only Balkan population with a sizeable J2 frequency) or remnants of Muslim Anatolians from Ottoman times. However, modern Albanians belong mainly to clade J2b, while Anatolians belong to J2a. Thus, I tend to dismiss the Anatolian connection.






According to Italian census there are 200 000 Arbereshe in Italy currently. Their Dna would not matter in a sea of
of 60 mil Italians. The majority of Arbereshe reside in USA, Argentina or Brasil. So its pointless to say Arbereshe people altered the DNA makeup of Italy. Greeks have had the largest immpact.

Nobody1
04-06-13, 17:30
According to Italian census there are 200 000 Arbereshe in Italy currently. Their Dna would not matter in a sea of 60 mil Italians. The majority of Arbereshe reside in USA, Argentina or Brasil. So its pointless to say Arbereshe people altered the DNA makeup of Italy. Greeks have had the largest immpact.

Yes, but the 200,000 Arbereshe are not floating in a sea of 60 mil. Italians, since they are not dispersed throughout Italy;

Historically the Arbereshe are confined (historic migration to the Kingdom of the two Sicilies) in regions [Calabria, Molise, Basilicata] of the south;

So the 200,000 Arbereshe are floating in a pool of 2.9 mil (confined regions) and 17.4 mil all South Italy + Sicily;

and its a bit more than 200,000:

Edwin E. Jacques - The Albanians: an ethnic history from prehistoric times to the present (1995)
Currently, Mahir Domi in his statistical study of "Albanian Settlements in the World" (Liria 28 March 1980, 3) estimates that about 136,000 of these Arbereshe people in 55 villages still speak Albanian, whereas about 182,000 Arbereshe in other villages can no longer speak it......Yet it seems remarkable that after 500 years in Italy, so many Arbereshe living in their compact Albanian communities have not been altogether assimilated.

---

PS: The main reason the Lega Nord hates the south is not because of its Genetic diversity, its because of its Economic diversity;

http://imageshack.us/a/img199/5600/gdp1.png

albanopolis
04-06-13, 18:30
Yes, but the 200,000 Arbereshe are not floating in a sea of 60 mil. Italians, since they are not dispersed throughout Italy;

Historically the Arbereshe are confined (historic migration to the Kingdom of the two Sicilies) in regions [Calabria, Molise, Basilicata] of the south;

So the 200,000 Arbereshe are floating in a pool of 2.9 mil (confined regions) and 17.4 mil all South Italy + Sicily;

and its a bit more than 200,000:

Edwin E. Jacques - The Albanians: an ethnic history from prehistoric times to the present (1995)
Currently, Mahir Domi in his statistical study of "Albanian Settlements in the World" (Liria 28 March 1980, 3) estimates that about 136,000 of these Arbereshe people in 55 villages still speak Albanian, whereas about 182,000 Arbereshe in other villages can no longer speak it......Yet it seems remarkable that after 500 years in Italy, so many Arbereshe living in their compact Albanian communities have not been altogether assimilated.

---

PS: The main reason the Lega Nord hates the south is not because of its Genetic diversity, its because of its Economic diversity;

http://imageshack.us/a/img199/5600/gdp1.png

I have read in some topic here in Eupedia that there was a relation between GDP per capita and Haplogroups. The participants in the forum were saying somthing like: The higher the R1b in a certain population, the higher the GDP. The thread was started by Maciamo if I remember it correctly. You can search it for yourself and you will find it. So the economic complain Lega has against South is in fact a camuflaged genetic complain. South are geneticaly incapable for economic advance, so lets seperate. So no matter how you are justifying it, it comes down to: Haplogroups E+J+G+T are inferior compared to R1b. I mean what I am saying, I am not trying to chop balls.

Taranis
04-06-13, 18:47
No,
that is not possible -and i dont understand the connection;

Ancient Sicily =
Iberian Sicani - Ligurian Siculi - Trojan Elymians (Thucydides) - plus
Phoenician Colonies and Greek Colonies

http://imageshack.us/a/img209/8526/sic1.png

---

The Umbrians were Indo-Europeans, akin to the Indo-European Kelts

Cambrian Institute - The Cambrian Journal (1862)
from Caius Sempronius (De Divis. Ital.);
"The portion of the Apennines from the sources of the Tiber to the Nar, the Umbri inhabit, the oldest stock of the Old Gael, (Veteres Galli), as Augustus writes."
[Apenninum colunt Ligures, portionem vero Apennini inhabitant Umbri, prima veterum Gallorum proies, ut Augustus scribit]

James C. Prichard - Ethnography of Europe: Vol.III (1841)
Solinus informs us that Bocchus, a writer who has been several times cited by Pliny, reported the Umbri to have been descended from the ancient Gauls;

[Umbri, Italiae gens est, sed Gallorum veterum propago]

Luke Owen Pike - The English and their Origin (1866)
If now we consult the Umbrian language with a view of discovering whether it approaches more nearly the Gaelic or the Cymric type, we find, scanty though the evidence may be, that Umbrian differs from Latin in precisely the same manner in which Cymric and Greek differ from Latin. The Latin qu becomes, in Umbrian, as in Welsh and Greek, p: e.g. Latin quatuor, Umbrian petur, Welsh pedwar. The Welsh uch, uchel, appears as the Umbrian ucar, the Greek aixpog; the Welsh hwra as the Umbrian hri, the Greek aipsco;


Archaeologically - attested by the Bronze Age Terremare culture (akin to Swiss Lake Dwellings) and the subsequent cultures of the Indo-European Urnfield Culture Complex [Villanovan - Golasecca]


The Umbrian language is attested by its dozens of inscriptions and texts -
http://www.ancientscripts.com/umbrian.html

http://imageshack.us/a/img13/8729/languages.png


[B]Umbrian [I]Alphabet (derived from the Etruscan runic system of the Cumaean Greek Alphabet)

http://www.ancientscripts.com/images/umbrian.gif

Nobody, I agree (obviously) that the Umbrians spoke an Indo-European language, but you have a few other mistakes here:


- There is no etymological connection between "Gael" and "Galli". Kudos for pointing out that 19th century scholars believed that, but it's not correct. The word "Gael", in Old Irish "goídel", is an exonym from Brythonic (it is "Gwyddel" in modern Welsh), while the word "Galli" is a Latin exonym for the Gauls.


- Umbrian was an Italic language, not a Celtic one. Together with Latin, Oscan and a few other old Italic languages, it is descended from Proto-Italic (as in that "figure 4.2" that you quote. If you believe otherwise, I would like you to demonstrate the supposed commonalities of Umbrian with the Celtic languages (and different from other Italic languages), other than the shift /kw/ > /p/, which does not count because in addition to Brythonic and Gaulish, it occurs in Greek too, while not occuring in Celtiberian, Irish or Latin.

- The Etruscan alphabet was not a "runic" system. The Nordic runes may have been developed from the Etruscan alphabet (or from one of it's descendants used in the Alps), but the alphabet itself had nothing to do with runes. Instead, it was developed from an early variant of the Greek alphabet.

Yetos
04-06-13, 19:17
According to Italian census there are 200 000 Arbereshe in Italy currently. Their Dna would not matter in a sea of
of 60 mil Italians. The majority of Arbereshe reside in USA, Argentina or Brasil. So its pointless to say Arbereshe people altered the DNA makeup of Italy. Greeks have had the largest immpact.


you are funny.
are you counting all Albanians of Italy as Arberesh people?

Arberesh are 9 villages in Sicily and a total 23 at whole Itlay, some of them don't even have 1000 people,

Arberesh are not all the Albanians that liive in Italy.
Arberesh is pppptestified historical family connection.

what 200 000.

Yetos
04-06-13, 19:19
Yes, but the 200,000 Arbereshe are not floating in a sea of 60 mil. Italians, since they are not dispersed throughout Italy;

Historically the Arbereshe are confined (historic migration to the Kingdom of the two Sicilies) in regions [Calabria, Molise, Basilicata] of the south;

So the 200,000 Arbereshe are floating in a pool of 2.9 mil (confined regions) and 17.4 mil all South Italy + Sicily;

and its a bit more than 200,000:

Edwin E. Jacques - The Albanians: an ethnic history from prehistoric times to the present (1995)
Currently, Mahir Domi in his statistical study of "Albanian Settlements in the World" (Liria 28 March 1980, 3) estimates that about 136,000 of these Arbereshe people in 55 villages still speak Albanian, whereas about 182,000 Arbereshe in other villages can no longer speak it......Yet it seems remarkable that after 500 years in Italy, so many Arbereshe living in their compact Albanian communities have not been altogether assimilated.

---

PS: The main reason the Lega Nord hates the south is not because of its Genetic diversity, its because of its Economic diversity;

http://imageshack.us/a/img199/5600/gdp1.png

what 200 000 thousand

they are 9 villages in sicily, and a total of 23 with arbanites that moved there,
the rest are Albanians who migrated Italy,
Arberesh is a limited historical and family connection, that created 9 villages in sicily.

Albanopolis ppppppprobably is counting all Albanians of Italy.

Nobody1
04-06-13, 19:36
I have read in some topic here in Eupedia that there was a relation between GDP per capita and Haplogroups. The participants in the forum were saying somthing like: The higher the R1b in a certain population, the higher the GDP. The thread was started by Maciamo if I remember it correctly. You can search it for yourself and you will find it. So the economic complain Lega has against South is in fact a camuflaged genetic complain. South are geneticaly incapable for economic advance, so lets seperate. So no matter how you are justifying it, it comes down to: Haplogroups E+J+G+T are inferior compared to R1b. I mean what I am saying, I am not trying to chop balls.

well, there is something fundamentally wrong with a region in which organised crime clans are both the largest employer and the richest "business" venture - and i dont think its genetic haplogroups;
the region is of course Southern Italy - and that scenario exists as such in Calabria (Ndrangheta) and Naples (Camorra)
and guess what they make tens of billions doing so; hows that for a booming economy;
and i guess you know from whom they adopted the blood feud - Vendetta

Its historically based, Brigandage in Southern Italy always prevailed - culminating in a 4 year war with the unification troops (1861-65) in which thousands were killed and Southern Italy was ravaged by the Unification troops;

Calabrese briganti - 19th cen.
http://imageshack.us/a/img17/899/calbri2.png

Nobody1
04-06-13, 19:57
Nobody, I agree (obviously) that the Umbrians spoke an Indo-European language, but you have a few other mistakes here:

- There is no etymological connection between "Gael" and "Galli". Kudos for pointing out that 19th century scholars believed that, but it's not correct. The word "Gael", in Old Irish "goídel", is an exonym from Brythonic (it is "Gwyddel" in modern Welsh), while the word "Galli" is a Latin exonym for the Gauls.

Guess what, i 100% agree with you;
But you cant blame me for the Translation/Interpretation of the Cambrian Institute;

Caius Sempronius: - Apenninum colunt Ligures, portionem vero Apennini inhabitant Umbri, prima veterum Gallorum proies, ut Augustus scribit

Thats what its all about, the essence of my point;

i used the The Cambrian Journal as the source because it compiles all the ancient sources and has an english translation with it; but im not responsible for their own interpretations, and the latin quote refers to (as you pointed out) Galli = Gauls [Roman for kelts]; But i thought that would go without saying.......



- Umbrian was an Italic language, not a Celtic one. Together with Latin, Oscan and a few other old Italic languages, it is descended from Proto-Italic (as in that "figure 4.2" that you quote. If you believe otherwise, I would like you to demonstrate the supposed commonalities of Umbrian with the Celtic languages (and different from other Italic languages), other than the shift /kw/ > /p/, which does not count because in addition to Brythonic and Gaulish, it occurs in Greek too, while not occuring in Celtiberian, Irish or Latin.

Again 100% agree with you;
But where did i claim that Umbrian is a keltic language?
I always said that the Umbrians are Indo-Europeans akin to the Indo-European Kelts,
meaning: within the Indo-European family the Umbrians are closest to the Keltic Indo-Europeans [Archaeologically (to proto-Keltic) and Linguistically], but this doesnt imply (and i never implied) that the Umbrians are a Keltic Branch;

Instead in all the threads i posted about Umbrians, my stand was very clear (based on Historical documentation) that the Umbrians were the core (the all dominating factor) of the Indo-European ITALICS.

PS: I also dont consider Lepontic a Keltic language but an Umbrian-(italic) language with an Liguric strain (-Prof. Whatmough)


Instead, it was developed from an early variant of the Greek alphabet.

na was du nicht sagst, dann guck mal was da in den Klammern steht -

Whether its Runes or not.........none of my business,
some consider them runes based on Futhark developing out of it, but for all i care lets call it whatever you want them to be.

albanopolis
04-06-13, 22:00
what 200 000 thousand

they are 9 villages in sicily, and a total of 23 with arbanites that moved there,
the rest are Albanians who migrated Italy,
Arberesh is a limited historical and family connection, that created 9 villages in sicily.

Albanopolis ppppppprobably is counting all Albanians of Italy.

traditions alive.The full list of the Arbëresh Community in Italy is still the following:[6] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-6)


Abruzzo (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Abruzzo)

Province of Pescara (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Province_of_Pescara)

Villa Badessa (http://www.eupedia.com/w/index.php?title=Villa_Badessa&action=edit&redlink=1) (frazione (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Frazione) of Rosciano (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Rosciano)): Badhesa



Molise (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Molise)

Province of Campobasso (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Province_of_Campobasso)

Campomarino (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Campomarino): Këmarini
Montecilfone (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Montecilfone): Munxhufuni
Portocannone (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Portocannone): Portkanuni
Ururi (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ururi): Rùri



Campania (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Campania)

Province of Avellino (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Province_of_Avellino)

Greci (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greci,_Campania): Katundi Greçi



Puglia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Puglia)

Province of Foggia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Province_of_Foggia)

Casalvecchio di Puglia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Casalvecchio_di_Puglia): Kazallveqi
Chieuti (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Chieuti): Qefti


Provincia di Taranto (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Provincia_di_Taranto)

San Marzano di San Giuseppe (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/San_Marzano_di_San_Giuseppe): Shën Marcani



Basilicata (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Basilicata)

Province of Potenza (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Province_of_Potenza)

Barile (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Barile): Barilli
Ginestra (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ginestra): Zhura
Maschito (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Maschito): Mashqiti
San Costantino Albanese (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/San_Costantino_Albanese): Shën Kostandini Arbëreshë
San Paolo Albanese (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/San_Paolo_Albanese): Shën Pali Arbëreshë



Calabria (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Calabria)

Province of Catanzaro (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Province_of_Catanzaro)

Andali (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Andali): Andalli
Caraffa di Catanzaro (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Caraffa_di_Catanzaro): Garafa
Marcedusa (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Marcedusa): Marçëdhuza
Vena di Maida (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Maida#Vena_di_Maida) (frazione of Maida (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Maida)): Vina


Province of Cosenza (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Province_of_Cosenza)

Acquaformosa (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Acquaformosa): Firmoza
Cantinella (http://www.eupedia.com/w/index.php?title=Cantinella_(Italia)&action=edit&redlink=1) (frazione of Corigliano Calabro (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Corigliano_Calabro)): Kantinela
Cerzeto (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Cerzeto) (in the commune of Cerzeto): Qana
Castroregio (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Castroregio): Kastërnexhi
Cavallerizzo (http://www.eupedia.com/w/index.php?title=Cavallerizzo&action=edit&redlink=1) (frazione of Cerzeto (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Cerzeto)): Kajverici
Civita (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Civita): Çifti
Eianina (http://www.eupedia.com/w/index.php?title=Eianina&action=edit&redlink=1) (frazione of Frascineto (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Frascineto)): Purçìll
Falconara Albanese (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Falconara_Albanese): Fullkunara
Farneta (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Farneta) (frazione of Castroregio (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Castroregio)): Farneta
Firmo (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Firmo): Ferma
Frascineto (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Frascineto): Frasnita
Lungro (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Lungro): Ungra
Macchia Albanese (http://www.eupedia.com/w/index.php?title=Macchia_Albanese&action=edit&redlink=1) (frazione of San Demetrio Corone (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/San_Demetrio_Corone)): Maqi
Marri (http://www.eupedia.com/w/index.php?title=Marri_(San_Benedetto_Ullano)&action=edit&redlink=1) (frazione of San Benedetto Ullano (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/San_Benedetto_Ullano)): Allimarri
Plataci (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Plataci): Pllatëni
San Basile (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/San_Basile): Shën Vasili
San Benedetto Ullano (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/San_Benedetto_Ullano): Shën Benedhiti
Santa Caterina Albanese (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Santa_Caterina_Albanese): Picilia
San Cosmo Albanese (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/San_Cosmo_Albanese) Strihàri
San Demetrio Corone (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/San_Demetrio_Corone): Shën Mitri
San Giorgio Albanese (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/San_Giorgio_Albanese): Mbuzati
San Giacomo di Cerzeto (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/San_Giacomo_di_Cerzeto) (frazione of Cerzeto (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Cerzeto)): Shën Japku
San Martino di Finita (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/San_Martino_di_Finita): Shën Mërtiri
Santa Sofia d'Epiro (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Santa_Sofia_d%27Epiro): Shën Sofia
Spezzano Albanese (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Spezzano_Albanese): Spixana
Vaccarizzo Albanese (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Vaccarizzo_Albanese): Vakarici


Province of Crotone (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Province_of_Crotone)

Carfizzi (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Carfizzi): Karfici
Pallagorio (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pallagorio): Puhëriu
San Nicola dell'Alto (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/San_Nicola_dell%27Alto) Shën Kolli



Sicilia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Sicilia)

Province of Palermo (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Province_of_Palermo)

Contessa Entellina (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Contessa_Entellina): Kundisa
Piana degli Albanesi (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Piana_degli_Albanesi): Hora e Arbëreshëvet
Santa Cristina Gela (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Santa_Cristina_Gela): Sëndahstina





http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cc/Italia_albania1859.jpg/120px-Italia_albania1859.jpg (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/File:Italia_albania1859.jpg)

Ethnographic map: 1859 depicting the Albanian population in green



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d1/Albanian_dialects.svg/120px-Albanian_dialects.svg.png (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/File:Albanian_dialects.svg)

Albanian ethno-linguistic territories



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/AlbaniansOutsideAlbania.png/120px-AlbaniansOutsideAlbania.png (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/File:AlbaniansOutsideAlbania.png)

Distribution of Albanians outside Albania (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Albania)



Arbëresh diaspora[edit (http://www.eupedia.com/w/index.php?title=Arb%C3%ABresh%C3%AB_people&action=edit&section=5)] Take a look at the list. Close to 60 villages. Associated maps are available too.

albanopolis
04-06-13, 22:16
well, there is something fundamentally wrong with a region in which organised crime clans are both the largest employer and the richest "business" venture - and i dont think its genetic haplogroups;
the region is of course Southern Italy - and that scenario exists as such in Calabria (Ndrangheta) and Naples (Camorra)
and guess what they make tens of billions doing so; hows that for a booming economy;
and i guess you know from whom they adopted the blood feud - Vendetta

Its historically based, Brigandage in Southern Italy always prevailed - culminating in a 4 year war with the unification troops (1861-65) in which thousands were killed and Southern Italy was ravaged by the Unification troops;

Calabrese briganti - 19th cen.

http://imageshack.us/a/img17/899/calbri2.png
Its hard to believe that 18 million South Italians are Bandits as you are trying to say. I have been there in some places. Its very mountanians place. Farming land is sparse and overpopulated compared with North. Have you not seen where they build their houses? In the top of Rocks. With one thing in mind, tosave the farmland. Being a mountainans place makes everything difficult. Also the South is far from developed markets.

Yetos
04-06-13, 23:47
Arberesh is a story from 1000 AD,

they were in Italy with general Maniakis, they came to Balkans and revolt against Con/polis when Maniakis lost its properties,
they were defeated in Thessaloniki so they went to South Greece, next to Palaiologos and Mani,
they establish few villages there among the dedication to their leader-general Maniaki.
in 1534 they followed Sicilians of Andrea Doria fleet to Sicily (Hora) and ottomans with Barbarosa burn the castle given to them (Κορωνη)
so they settled in Italy in 2 major parts,


1. Sicily in around Hora Χωρα and they had piana dei Greci which musolini change the name of village and piana at 1939.
2. Calabria Ai dimitri Corone (Αγιος Δημητριος Ο κορωνης. cathedral of corone in Greece,) which Musolini also change to Santo Demitri


THE REST ARE NOT ARBERESH. THE REST ARE ALBANIAN OR ARBANITES
You see not all have the priviledge or the curse to be Arberesh
All Albanians of Italy are not Arberesh althought that maybe suits your propaganda.

Andrea Doria, admiral from Genova took 2000 people among them the Arberesh.
how come from 1534 to 2013 they become 200 000????
even with 10 kids each generation can not become.

in their songs the word Albania did not existed until 1939 (Musolini) Neither Kastrioti's story.
cause they never went there.
their genetic autosomal are almost Italian (dienekes) which is a prove that they were familiar with Italy even before Maniakis revolt.

their oldest song, a kind of anthem spokes only about Korone and Muslim dogs (kien κυων)

the rest are your imagination, or your effort to create impressions.

binx
04-06-13, 23:52
Arberesh is a story from 1000 AD,

they were in Italy with general Maniakis, they came to Balkans and revolt against Con/polis when Maniakis lost its properties,
they were defeated in Thessaloniki so they went to South Greece, next to Palaiologos and Mani,
they establish few villages there among the dedication to their leader-general Maniaki.
in 1534 they followed Venicians and ottomans burn the castle given to them (Κορωνη)
so they settled in Italy in 2 major parts,


1. Sicily in around Hora Χωρα and they had piana dei Greci which musolini change the name of village and piana at 1939.
2. Calabria Ai dimitri Corone (Αγιος Δημητριος Ο κορωνης. cathedral of corone in Greece,) which Musolini also change to Santo Demitri
Ai Giorgi Greco (Αι Γιωργη) which Musolini also change to Santo
they are 9 major villages, with max 23 smaller satelite, like Magia (magister = for supremes, for mayor)

THE REST ARE NOT ARBERESH. THE REST ARE ALBANIAN.

the biggest of all was Hora in 1930 after Greek word Χωρα, so count them,

in their songs the word Albania did not existed until 1939 (Musolini) Neither Kastrioti's story.
cause they never went there.
their genetic autosomal are almost Italian (dienekes) which is a prove that they were familiar with Italy even before Maniakis revolt.

their oldest song, a kind of anthem spokes only about Korone and Muslim dogs (kien)

Hora is a Greek word. And Maniakis went to Sicily with Vikings, and Northern Europeans troops. No Arbereshe with Maniakis. Because Arbereshe went to Italy not before 1463, and Arbereshe were Arvanites, coming from Greece in many cases.

In south Italy there were also medieval migrations of Waldensians (France, Piedmont), of Lombards, of Franco-Provençal people, of Britons, of Normans as We know. There were also migrations of Slavs (called Schiavoni) and Greeks, escaping both from Ottomans Turks.

binx
05-06-13, 00:16
George Maniakes (Greek: Γεώργιος Μανιάκης, transliterated as Georgios Maniaces, Maniakis, or Maniaches, Italian: Giorgio Maniace) (died 1043) was a prominent Byzantine Greek general during the 11th century, he was the catepan of Italy in 1042. He is known as Gyrgir in Scandinavian sagas. He is popularly said to have been extremely tall and well built, almost a giant.

Maniakes first became prominent during a campaign in 1030–1031, when the Byzantine Empire was defeated at Aleppo but went on to capture Edessa from the Seljuk Turks. His greatest achievement was the partial reconquest of Sicily from the Arabs beginning in 1038. Here, he was assisted by the Varangian Guard, which was at that time led by Harald Hardrada, who later became king of Norway. There were also Norman mercenaries with him, under William de Hauteville, who won his nickname Iron Arm by defeating the emir of Syracuse in single combat. However, he soon ostracised his admiral, Stephen, whose wife was the sister of John the Eunuch, the highest ranking man at court, and, by publicly humiliating the leader of the Lombard contingent, Arduin, he caused them to desert him, with the Normans and Norsemen. In response, he was recalled by the emperor Michael IV, also brother-in-law of Stephen. Although the Arabs soon took the island back, Maniakes' successes there later inspired the Normans to invade Sicily themselves.

No Arbereshe people with George Maniakis, known as Gyrgir in Scandinavian sagas.

albanopolis
05-06-13, 01:39
Arberesh is a story from 1000 AD,

they were in Italy with general Maniakis, they came to Balkans and revolt against Con/polis when Maniakis lost its properties,
they were defeated in Thessaloniki so they went to South Greece, next to Palaiologos and Mani,
they establish few villages there among the dedication to their leader-general Maniaki.
in 1534 they followed Sicilians of Andrea Doria fleet to Sicily (Hora) and ottomans with Barbarosa burn the castle given to them (Κορωνη)
so they settled in Italy in 2 major parts,


1. Sicily in around Hora Χωρα and they had piana dei Greci which musolini change the name of village and piana at 1939.
2. Calabria Ai dimitri Corone (Αγιος Δημητριος Ο κορωνης. cathedral of corone in Greece,) which Musolini also change to Santo Demitri


THE REST ARE NOT ARBERESH. THE REST ARE ALBANIAN OR ARBANITES
You see not all have the priviledge or the curse to be Arberesh
All Albanians of Italy are not Arberesh althought that maybe suits your propaganda.

Andrea Doria, admiral from Genova took 2000 people among them the Arberesh.
how come from 1534 to 2013 they become 200 000????
even with 10 kids each generation can not become.

in their songs the word Albania did not existed until 1939 (Musolini) Neither Kastrioti's story.
cause they never went there.
their genetic autosomal are almost Italian (dienekes) which is a prove that they were familiar with Italy even before Maniakis revolt.

their oldest song, a kind of anthem spokes only about Korone and Muslim dogs (kien κυων)

the rest are your imagination, or your effort to create impressions.
Pianna degli Grecci was the name given to them by Sicilians since they practised orthodox version of christianity.
They did not call themselves Grecci. They called themselves Arberesh. This was the name of the country until the Ottoman conquest. We do not call ourself Albanians. Foreigners call us Albanians, so its an exonim. If you go today in Albanian you will not hear the word Albania either.
You are very misinformed person. I don't beleive that you are a provocatour either since I have heard same story by other greeks too. I don't know what kind of stories you read. Italian governmet recognises them as a minority. They have their Albanian schools, university and Klergy. I am not aware that greek minority is recognised in Italy. I know there are still some pocket of Greeks there. Yes, the numbers of Arbereshi in Italy is estimated 200 000. Sources say it could be twice that number since many have left their villages and gone to big cities where they are assimilated. Huge numbers of Arbereshi reside in USA and Argentina. What else can I say? There is absolutly no connection between Arberesh and Greeks

Luan
05-06-13, 06:40
Arberesh is a story from 1000 AD,

they were in Italy with general Maniakis, they came to Balkans and revolt against Con/polis when Maniakis lost its properties,
they were defeated in Thessaloniki so they went to South Greece, next to Palaiologos and Mani,
they establish few villages there among the dedication to their leader-general Maniaki.
in 1534 they followed Sicilians of Andrea Doria fleet to Sicily (Hora) and ottomans with Barbarosa burn the castle given to them (Κορωνη)
so they settled in Italy in 2 major parts,


1. Sicily in around Hora Χωρα and they had piana dei Greci which musolini change the name of village and piana at 1939.
2. Calabria Ai dimitri Corone (Αγιος Δημητριος Ο κορωνης. cathedral of corone in Greece,) which Musolini also change to Santo Demitri


THE REST ARE NOT ARBERESH. THE REST ARE ALBANIAN OR ARBANITES
You see not all have the priviledge or the curse to be Arberesh
All Albanians of Italy are not Arberesh althought that maybe suits your propaganda.

Andrea Doria, admiral from Genova took 2000 people among them the Arberesh.
how come from 1534 to 2013 they become 200 000????
even with 10 kids each generation can not become.

in their songs the word Albania did not existed until 1939 (Musolini) Neither Kastrioti's story.
cause they never went there.
their genetic autosomal are almost Italian (dienekes) which is a prove that they were familiar with Italy even before Maniakis revolt.

their oldest song, a kind of anthem spokes only about Korone and Muslim dogs (kien κυων)

the rest are your imagination, or your effort to create impressions.
Santa Claus was Greek. That's what Greek who make propaganda will say.

zanipolo
05-06-13, 07:52
Pianna degli Grecci was the name given to them by Sicilians since they practised orthodox version of christianity.
They did not call themselves Grecci. They called themselves Arberesh. This was the name of the country until the Ottoman conquest. We do not call ourself Albanians. Foreigners call us Albanians, so its an exonim. If you go today in Albanian you will not hear the word Albania either.
You are very misinformed person. I don't beleive that you are a provocatour either since I have heard same story by other greeks too. I don't know what kind of stories you read. Italian governmet recognises them as a minority. They have their Albanian schools, university and Klergy. I am not aware that greek minority is recognised in Italy. I know there are still some pocket of Greeks there. Yes, the numbers of Arbereshi in Italy is estimated 200 000. Sources say it could be twice that number since many have left their villages and gone to big cities where they are assimilated. Huge numbers of Arbereshi reside in USA and Argentina. What else can I say? There is absolutly no connection between Arberesh and Greeks

now called Piana degli Albanesi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piana_degli_Albanesi

means ...plains of the albanians
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piana_degli_Albanesi)

zanipolo
05-06-13, 07:58
Bologna is Emilia, not Romagna.

Romagna starts in the eastern province of Bologna: Borgo Tossignano, Casalfiumanese, Castel del Rio, Dozza, Fontanelice, Imola, Mordano, Monterenzio (frazione Villa Sassonero, nella val Sillaro).

err ok, but its only 1 region .
then I guess Ferrara is "capitol" of romagna, Parma is "capitol" of Emilia
the Este family of Ferrara and the Farnese family of Parma

ty

zanipolo
05-06-13, 08:01
In regards to missing R1a1 in NEI, I looked through the ancient studies of illyrians from 2007-2010 ( USA, spanish and croatian paper) and also noticed no R1a for the veneti?

but I have seen some numbers of R1a before...........maybe these are friulian numbers for R1a

Survey only noted R1a, R1b, E, J and I

the FST of this survey placed the Veneti, Histri, Luburni and Norici as being very similar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixation_index

Vallicanus
05-06-13, 09:13
Maciamo, I have a question on nomenclature.
Boattini's Italy study separates R1b-L2 and RIb-U152.

Do you say they both come under the R1b-U152 umbrella?

adamo
05-06-13, 09:21
They would maybe both go under the P312 umbrella but no L-21 and U-152 are 2 different sub-branches of P312, L-21 does not go under u152 as a same category

Vallicanus
05-06-13, 09:29
I actually wrote L2 not L21, Adamo.

Nobody1
05-06-13, 09:34
Maciamo, I have a question on nomenclature.
Boattini's Italy study separates R1b-L2 and RIb-U152.

Do you say they both come under the R1b-U152 umbrella?

No, Boattini et al 2013 does not seperate it;
-it branches it into R1b-U152 and its sub-clades [L2 / L20]

U152 - R1b1b2a1b4
___ L2 - R1b1b2a1b4c
_____ L20 - R1b1b2a1b4c1

Nobody1
05-06-13, 09:43
@ Yetos

the story of the Arbereshe

Adrian Fortescue - The Uniate Eastern Churches (1923)
It is difficult to fix the exact date of the first arrival of the Albanian colonists in these parts. The first date I have found for certain, so far, is 1448. In that year Alphonsus I of Aragon, in return for services rendered by Albanian soldiers in his pay against the French, granted them lands in Sicily with a certain measure of autonomy under their Captains George and Basil Reres.*

In 1456 there was a great earthquake throughout Calabria and Apulia. After this the Neapolitan Government granted large districts of the country laid waste to Albanian colonists, in order that they might reclaim it.

When Scanderbeg had fought for Ferdinand I of Naples, he was rewarded by the grant of land at S Pietro in Galatina. He did not himself occupy his new estate; but his son and many of his countrymen came.

Other Albanians came in 1467 after Scanderbeg's death, many more during the Pontificate of Paul II (1468-1471); others, again, after the year 1478, when the Sultan finally subjected all Albania to his rule.

The town of Korone (Κορώνη) in the Peloponnesos had surrendered freely to the Venetians in 1204. Later many Albanians came to settle here (-Korone). In 1498 Bayazed II seized the town. In 1532 Charles II sent a fleet under Andrew Doria to retake it. The Christian Albanians rose against the Turks and helped the Imperial fleet. But soon after the Turks recaptured the place. Then, fearing their vengeance, the Albanians fled to Italy. There were more than 200 ships full of them; their bishop Benedict came too. So they arrived in the kingdom of Naples. The Government gave them grants of land and money. The Albanians of Korone spread throughout the kingdom. Some joined Greek refugees in the city of Naples, and there formed a community of the Byzantine rite; under Prince Thomas Palaiologos.

*These were the sons of Demetrio Reres. who had led the Albanian forces for Alphonsus. His diploma is printed by Rodota iii, 52-53. The name Reres occurs constantly among the Albanians in Italy.
---

So, there were many waves of Albanians (Arbereshe) coming to the South of Italy [Kingdom of the two Sicilies] from 1448 - 1532;

Albanian soldiers of Reres and Skanderbeg and the Albanian citizens of Korone. 1448-1532

and acc. to latest census ~310,000 Arbereshe in South Italy - post#86 Edwin E. Jaques; many more in the New World;

Skanderbeg was great firends with
King Ferdinand I of Aragon-Naples and Pope Pius II;

Skanderbeg - statue in Rome
http://photos.wikimapia.org/p/00/01/22/27/62_big.jpg

---

as for Byzantine times

Michael Attaleiates - 11th cen. Byzantine
Unfortunately, the people who had once been our allies and who possessed the same rights as citizens and the same religion, i.e. the Albanians and the Latins, who live in the Italian regions of our Empire beyond Western Rome, quite suddenly became enemies when Michael Dokenianos insanely directed his command against their leaders...

there were already Albanians in the Byzantine Catapanate of Italy, but they all were Latinised (later on) by the Normans;

---

The Arbereshe of the former Two Sicilies [Calabria, Sicily, Basilicata, Molise] --- Have and always had a very strong Albanain Identity and Consciousness;
- Mussolini was not needed for that!

From Luca Matrenga - Gavril Dara - Today, always strong Albanian identity;


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpS5LDTFnxY

adamo
05-06-13, 10:17
My error sorry lol

binx
05-06-13, 10:50
The Arbereshe of the former Two Sicilies [Calabria, Sicily, Basilicata, Molise] --- Have and always had a very strong Albanain Identity and Consciousness;
- Mussolini was not needed for that!

From Luca Matrenga - Gavril Dara - Today, always strong Albanian identity;

The Arbereshe identity and consciousness was created/powered during the XIX century (Chetta, De Rada, Giuseppe Crispi).

MOESAN
05-06-13, 19:45
Second look at the new sturvey about Italy Y and mt-DNA:
Y-DNA (I have too less data for mt-DNA in general)


some percentages seem very astonishing compared to previous surveys, but I remember these samples are not so big, not enough yet, and Italy is still a very morceled «patchwork» country with a lot of different origins plus founder effects not already erased by crossings:


compared to Maciamo %s this survey gives few % to Y-I2b (M223 in the survey, before M284) as a whole (0,8%, 1,3% in central Italy, against a supposed 4-6%), being Sardinia the most (2,4%) -


Y-J2a seems very stronger than Y-J2b (the Balkans one) – as a whole it seems stronger in East than in West – for the South and Sicily no surprise, a greek influence was waited – for the N-E I hesitate: no Greeks there, so: a coming through Danau river or (maybe «and») an etruscan influence? I have no sufficient knowledge about more recent history of Italy but I do not remember an important colonization coming there from South or Greece... Y-J2b shows a slightly stronger imput in East vs West, for South vs North it too unsure, there is no evidence here – the 5,2% of C-S and 3,0% in S could be the result of some Balkans people, apparently more by sea than by land (the 0% of N-E Italy amazes me: it is not the only amazing % of this survey: already at Neolithic and Calcholithic ages it seems people came by land through N-E Italy, coming from the Balkans... -
as a whole too the total percentages of Y-J2 seem to me very weak in South and N-East: from other surveys I have vaguely calculated a 22% for all Y-J2 in South, and found a 27% in E-N-E Italy, against 16,1% and 13,8% in this survey ?...


Y-R1a absent from N-E Italy?!? it seems a nonsense! - even if upon tiny enough samples, I noticed 9,1% around Friul and 6,7% in Trentin – S-R1a in South could really be from Greeks...


Same surprise for Y-G2 on the other side: I had only around 7% in -Italy when they found there 16,2%!) -


a surprise too with Y-I1 found at high values here in N-E >> 9% and Emilia >> 10% - no big surprise for N-E (Longobards apport?+ some Goths?) but in Emilia: somes Goths there too, ecause Celts were not so rich of it – I accept a history lesson immediatly!!!


no surprise about Y-E1b – majority of V13 (some M81 in Emilia and Sicily, but very tiny)


the only percentages that did not afraid me are the Y-R1b ones: it is true they are the denser ones in every study – Y-R1b more common in Emilia and Toscana: OK, Lombardia is strong too I think, but here it was put along with Liguria and Piemonte – their N-E seems poor enough ut...
interesting: the percentages of «new R1b» (down U106 and P312) vs «old R1b» (up) are very denser in the regions where global R1b is denser - in North-East where R1b in this survey is less dense, we found a bit more «old R1b»... compare:
Emilia: tot R1: 58,5% vs old: 11,8% / N-E-Italy: 37,0% vs 21,4% / S-Italy: 25,7% vs 33,5% / Sardinia: 18,2% vs 44,5% ! no comment! - this central position of N-E makes me to think their «old R1b» came for a part from the Balkans, even if I have no proof at this moment – the U152 relative percentages compared to global Y-R1b are slightly stronger in North as a whole (but best: Toscana) but compared to «new Y-R1b» we see some discrepancies: it is not always the strongest places for total Y-R1b nor for «new-R1b» which have the better scores: Sardinia is ahead with 80,2% U152/ «newR1b» preceding Toscana: 77,9% and S-C-Italy: 65, 2%: so the N-N-W traditional lands in italy for Y-R1b received proportionally less U152 than central regions, and, if leaving aside the «old R1b» in Sardinia, Sardinians received I think lately enough «new R1b» and they were Italics, maybe more on the Umbrians side than on the Latins side – the high percentage of L21 in Emilia even if too magnified in this survey, could the proof of a strong celtic element there and explain the relative «paucity» for U152/totla R1b... Emilia received a lot of Celts if not more than Lombardia (look at dialects in italy) -
I wait more and more surveys of this kind but upon more detailed regions: history of Italy requires it -
buona sera

zanipolo
07-06-13, 22:09
Here is the mtDNA table from the supplementary data.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/data/Italy-mtDNA-Boattini-2013.png


MtDna ...no african L?


"whole control region and 39 coding SNPs of mtDNA ... which yielded to 79 distinct mtDNA haplogroups (including sublineages) ... 865 samples were successfully sequenced for the whole control region"

All samples are 10400+ (M) or 10873+ (N)

The coding region confirms that there were no L present and all of the latter were either M or N.
The paper uses the control region to further differentiate - for example the various types of T, J, U etc.

zanipolo
07-06-13, 22:17
as others stated from other studies of this paper:............

The conclusion, that men of the G haplogroup are MESOLITHIC in Europe.

G is concentrated now in the mountains of the Caucasus. And sporadically in the rest of Europe.

Previous orthodoxy was that G's distribution was clinal, radiating from the Caucasus through the Middle East, to Europe, consistent with a Neolithic spread of the "farming" haplogroups.

With recent studies showing:

-G is old
-G is widely distributed and concentrated in refuge/isolated areas from the Alps to the Pyrenees to islands like Sardinia
-G in so many ancient samples

That G was the best candidate for the "original" YC Hg in Europe.

It would make sense that subsequent waves - wave after wave - pushed the marker into the most remote areas, where it survived.

This paper seems to conclude that too. Especially with the age and the close relationship with the G men in remote parts of Germany and remote parts of Italy.

IMO, I agree that G is the first ydna marker in Italy

MOESAN
07-06-13, 22:57
Oh, you mean the Irish-American soldier ref;
who knows, def. not an option that is the primary, but an option nonetheless;



I dont know, why you consider the Umbrians as the the last Indo-European wave, given what the classical authors wrote:

Pliny - Natural History (79 AD)
The race of the Umbri is considered the oldest in Italy. —(C. Plin. lib. ii. Nat. Hist. c. 14.)

Dionysius - The Roman Antiquities (29 BC)
The Umbri inhabited a great many other parts of Italy, and were an exceeding great, and ancient people.

Cambrian Institute - The Cambrian Journal (1862)
from Caius Sempronius (De Divis. Ital.);
"The portion of the Apennines from the sources of the Tiber to the Nar, the Umbri inhabit, the oldest stock of the Old Gael, (Veteres Galli), as Augustus writes."
[Apenninum colunt Ligures, portionem vero Apennini inhabitant Umbri, prima veterum Gallorum proies, ut Augustus scribit]

Also, the Herodotus map only mentions the Ombri - [next to Thyrreni, Eneti, Ligyes]
http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/Ancientimages/109B.JPG


The Ligurians are a key people in the Po valley, (also Rhone Valley and Maritime Alps);
It seems that the Ligurians were already present in the Neolithic and were [Brachycephalic] Pre-Indo-Europeans akin to Lapps.

Smithsonian Institution - Report of the Board of Regents: Vol.45 (1891)
In another Neolithic cave, called the Caverna della Matta [north Italy], an Iberian skull was found with an index of 68, and a Ligurian skull with an index of 84. No anthropologist would admit that these skulls could have belonged to men of the same race.

Roberto Bosi - The Lapps (1977)
Then [Rudolf Karl] Virchow. examining a number of Lappish skulls at Helsinki, Lund and Copenhagen, in conjunction with ancient Ligurian skulls, discovered many mutual features suggesting an identical strain.

The Umbrians must have mixed with the Ligurians,
as [B]Plutarch informs us that the Ligurians referred to themselves as AMBROnes in connections to their Origins;

Anthropological evidence:

Anthropological Society of London - Anthropological review: Vol.V (1867)
"when I look upon the delineations of the crania, the photographs and the figures given by M. Nicolucci himself, it appears to me that the difference between Ligurians and Umbrians, is about equal to the differences between Allemands and Germans.

The same scenario happened in the Swiss Lake Dwellings - Indo-Europeans mixed with a Brachycephalic (pos. Ligures) Pre-Indo-European people.

George Bradshaw - Bradshaw's illustrated hand-book to Switzerland and the Tyrol (1899)
Swiss Lake-dwellings - In his careful investigations of pile dwellings, Dr. Studer met with two extreme types of skulls, the brachycephalic and the dolikoccphalic; the former, at Schaffis and Lüschery (Lake of Bienne), belonging to the pure Stone period, and the latter, at Vinolz and Sutz, to the Bronze period. The facts point to an invasion by the Bronze men, involving a complete transformation of the group of domestic animals; the horse appears for the first time, and new races of sheep and dogs replace the older forms of the Stone period. The occurrence of mesocephalic, and even considerably shortened skulls, in the Bronze period, shows that there was no extinction of the brachycephalic race, but that the two races mixed.

I will post more about the Ligures in History & Civilisations > Who were the Sabines?


Personally, i think the last Indo-Europeans arriving in Italy were
the Illyrians in the South-East [Messapii / Iapyges]


I disagree about your Y-DNA Hg E analysis.
Area I = Liguria + Lombardy + Piedmont and is only high on E-V13 [9.3%]
1.8% other E-M78 sub-clades and 0.6% E-M123; thats all;
- so i wouldnt consider Liguria isolated to be any stronger;

I agree with your view about the present-Ligurians in contrast to the ancient-Ligurians;
but there is an historic region Lunigiana that was/is still very remote and has a grand ancient-Ligurian (Archaeological) Legacy.
One sample-set of Tuscany (in Boattini et al 2013) is from that region. Tuscany being 37% R1b-U152

Some remarks about your constructive contestation:
Herodote lived since 484 BC and so did not see the Umbrians installation in Italy - (to be correct I have to say I 'm born later...) - Herodote can inspire confidence about what he saw with his eyes, here he does only report some opinions - the same for the others authors you cite about the Umbrians age - I red somewhere Umbrians came about -1000 in Italy - have we a witness from the -1000s ? -
concerning Y-E in N-Italy I spoke about Y-E1b in general, not only about V-13 even if I think V13 is the dominant SNP there - but in a surveys (short enough concerning samples it's true) I saw a total Y-DE of 24,1% in coastal modern Liguria, and as I don' t think Y-D was the majority, I could suppose Y-E was strong enough there... I affirm again here that every survey we have is to light for sampling and we are obliged to compile all the surveys to have a more accurate view but then the regions are more or less mixed, too imprecise, helas!about skulls and old Ligurians, you and me know the Ligurians, I-E of Western I-E stock, acculturated pre-I-E populations where "autochtonous" dominated by number the ex-newcomers of agricultrual colonists-

&: I'm confused by the comparisons between Ligurians and Umbrians (where found them this Umbrians skulls?) or Germans and "Allemands" (curious terminology) - for these last ones, it is sure the Germanics tribes getting down toward South Germany mixed with different pre-(not proto-) germanic people, and "Allemands" are a modern population but here we are a bit far from the present subject - good night

Nobody1
07-06-13, 23:04
MtDna ...no african L?


"whole control region and 39 coding SNPs of mtDNA ... which yielded to 79 distinct mtDNA haplogroups (including sublineages) ... 865 samples were successfully sequenced for the whole control region"

All samples are 10400+ (M) or 10873+ (N)

The coding region confirms that there were no L present and all of the latter were either M or N.
The paper uses the control region to further differentiate - for example the various types of T, J, U etc.

I have also noticed that;
All mtDNA Haplogroups being either of the 10400 M* (minority) or 10873 N* (majority) lineage

I double checked it and it is correct; all figures add up to over 98% - over 99%;
something also other studies have confirmed;

oriental
07-06-13, 23:10
Don't forget megalithic Europe was matriarchal before arrival of Indo-Europeans so women mtdna would dominate in regions as men would have to leave home. With patriarchal system it is the opposite with women leaving home.

As we are all living in the modern age in patriarchal societies, we have that perspective which distorts analysis of ancient societies.

MOESAN
07-06-13, 23:14
as others stated from other studies of this paper:............

The conclusion, that men of the G haplogroup are MESOLITHIC in Europe.

G is concentrated now in the mountains of the Caucasus. And sporadically in the rest of Europe.

Previous orthodoxy was that G's distribution was clinal, radiating from the Caucasus through the Middle East, to Europe, consistent with a Neolithic spread of the "farming" haplogroups.

With recent studies showing:

-G is old
-G is widely distributed and concentrated in refuge/isolated areas from the Alps to the Pyrenees to islands like Sardinia
-G in so many ancient samples

That G was the best candidate for the "original" YC Hg in Europe.

It would make sense that subsequent waves - wave after wave - pushed the marker into the most remote areas, where it survived.

This paper seems to conclude that too. Especially with the age and the close relationship with the G men in remote parts of Germany and remote parts of Italy.

IMO, I agree that G is the first ydna marker in Italy

interesting point! I think too that some remote places could serve as refuge for older populations but here too we have to be cautious: we need more than a scientific tool to make our opinion:
for Switzerland, by instance, we konw southern populations came from mediterranea through the Rhone river valley: we have their culture: neolithical post-cardial (Y-G supposed ot have send this culture) chassean, we have their skulls! we have other diverse skeletal remnants of mediterranean subtypes of cardial assignation taking the Garonne valley about the -3000 going northwards to Poitou: these traces do not evocate the mesolithic/...
other points: some conquering populations leave the rivers sides to vanquished populations, keeping the lands between plain and highlands... we saw in past more than a time very different ways to hold land so... concerning mountains, I think that at some stage of History they were very attractive because it was there men found mineral ores...
in more recent time, with more organised politics and economy, the populations accumulated on axis of communication, it is true: but has that been the unique rule at avery time??? and at old times these axis of communication (rivers) could lead people
until very high places! mountain pass were used! and the BBs by instance were not afraid by mountains nor by coasts, not at all...from sea to rivers, from rivers to mountains, and with help of passes, from moutains to rivers and from rivers to sea (not the same sea)

Nobody1
07-06-13, 23:19
Some remarks about your constructive contestation:
Herodote lived since 484 BC and so did not see the Umbrians installation in Italy - (to be correct I have to say I 'm born later...) - Herodote can inspire confidence about what he saw with his eyes, here he does only report some opinions - the same for the others authors you cite about the Umbrians age - I red somewhere Umbrians came about -1000 in Italy - have we a witness from the -1000s ? -
concerning Y-E in N-Italy I spoke about Y-E1b in general, not only about V-13 even if I think V13 is the dominant SNP there - but in a surveys (short enough concerning samples it's true) I saw a total Y-DE of 24,1% in coastal modern Liguria, and as I don' t think Y-D was the majority, I could suppose Y-E was strong enough there... I affirm again here that every survey we have is to light for sampling and we are obliged to compile all the surveys to have a more accurate view but then the regions are more or less mixed, too imprecise, helas!about skulls and old Ligurians, you and me know the Ligurians, I-E of Western I-E stock, acculturated pre-I-E populations where "autochtonous" dominated by number the ex-newcomers of agricultrual colonists-
For all those questions there is Archaeology for answers,
take a look Page 2 post #44

I dont know the person that told you about Umbrians emerging in 1000 BC, so i wouldnt know about that;

Terremare emerged [Archaeological attested] 1500 BC and Urnfield Villanova [Archaeological attested] 1300 BC;
Those are the Solid Facts

Anthropology [the sources i quoted] is very clear and speaks for itself; i cant add anymore specifics to it; the studies and sources i quoted are (very) specific enough;

Yetos
07-06-13, 23:53
@ Nobody

the difference is obvious

you name Arberesh all Albanians of Italy.

while terminology for Greek academics Arberesh is only for the Corone Migrants to Italy,

so for Arvanites and Greeks all Albanians who went to Italy are not Arberesh,

only the areas I mention. the 9 villages.

now if want to tell me that in Taranto migrated Albanians, ok I do not Deny, But they are not Arberesh,
they are Albanians.

so I agree that in Italy might live 200 000 or 500 000 Albanians, but not Arberesh,

Arberesh until 1939 where isolated in their own culture, Mussolini forced them to change names and toponyms etc,

the distinguish all Albanians that live in italy are Arberesh, and all Orthodox Albanians are Arbanites is wrong
is a propagandistic claim, that started from Mussolini etc

Arberesh was the name of 9 villages around Hora Sicily and Ai Dimitri Corone, which share common History.
the rest are Albanians of Italy, Shqiptars of Italy etc etc etc.

IT IS LIKE NAMING ALL GREEKS THAT LIVE IN ITALY AS GRECANI.

if you ask zanipolo he will tell you about a church in Venice San Giorgio, where Greeks settled and merchandisefrom 1400.
these people were Greeks not Gracani, cause their story is different,
cause Grecani are the remnants of ancient Greeks in Magna Grecia, and not the Greeks that went after Con/polis fall.
if you name the Greeks that went to Italy at ottoman times 500 years, same with the Greeks of Lecce which are there more than 2500 years you are making a big mistake.



the difference is obvious.

Now if Mussolini order to build statues or change names does not change History,

ARBERESH ARE THE ONES WHO REVOLT WITH MANIAKIS, MOVED NEXT TO PALAIOLOGOS IN MANIAKI/CORONE, AND LEAVE WITH ANDREA DORIA TO SOUTH ITALY.
THE REST ARE ALBANIANS of ITALY.

their songs speak about bukure Morea and Corone.

read their own story.


Il Arberesh che formano la comunità Arvaniti del sud d'Italia, ha lasciato la Grecia (Peloponneso) nel 1534 dopo la caduta del castello di Koroni e la loro consegna alle Turkalbanesu e si stabilì in Italia meridionale e Sicilia.

Gli sforzi per la dehellenize Arberesh continua fino ad oggi. Un esempio è la nuova denominazione della frazione Piana dei Greci a Piana dei Albanesi nel 1939 dal regime di Mussolini, anche se fino ad oggi si chiama HORA.

their song (a kind of anthem) say

Abbiamo lasciato alle spalle in Corone (Peloponnese-Grecia), i nostri beni e le nostre merci, ma hanno preso Cristo con noi, oh mia bella Morea (Peloponneso). Profondamente triste, con le lacrime agli occhi, ci duole per voi Arberia. mia battenti rondinella lieve, quando si torna ancora una volta a Corone, non troverete le nostre case, né i nostri ragazzi bello, ma solo un cane (il Τurki), può venire una morte su di lui. Quando le navi diffondere le vele e le nostre terre è stato perso per gli occhi, tutti gli uomini con un sospiro e le donne con un gemito gridò: Get out Ghost, divorare noi. oh mia Morea. oh Arberi.

do you want it in their own dialect?

I have travel S Italy for a whole summer as student. and I want to go again.

albanopolis
08-06-13, 00:23
@ Nobody

the difference is obvious

you name Arberesh all Albanians of Italy.

while terminology for Greek academics Arberesh is only for the Corone Migrants to Italy,

so for Arvanites and Greeks all Albanians who went to Italy are not Arberesh,

only the areas I mention. the 9 villages.

now if want to tell me that in Taranto migrated Albanians, ok I do not Deny, But they are not Arberesh,
they are Albanians.

so I agree that in Italy might live 200 000 or 500 000 Albanians, but not Arberesh,

Arberesh until 1939 where isolated in their own culture, Mussolini forced them to change names and toponyms etc,

the distinguish all Albanians that live in italy are Arberesh, and all Orthodox Albanians are Arbanites is wrong
is a propagandistic claim, that started from Mussolini etc

Arberesh was the name of 9 villages around Hora Sicily and Ai Dimitri Corone, which share common History.
the rest are Albanians of Italy, Shqiptars of Italy etc etc etc.

IT IS LIKE NAMING ALL GREEKS THAT LIVE IN ITALY AS GRECANI.

if you ask zanipolo he will tell you about a church in Venice San Giorgio, where Greeks settled and merchandisefrom 1400.
these people were Greeks not Gracani, cause their story is different,
cause Grecani are the remnants of ancient Greeks in Magna Grecia, and not the Greeks that went after Con/polis fall.
if you name the Greeks that went to Italy at ottoman times 500 years, same with the Greeks of Lecce which are there more than 2500 years you are making a big mistake.



the difference is obvious.

Now if Mussolini order to build statues or change names does not change History,

ARBERESH ARE THE ONES WHO REVOLT WITH MANIAKIS, MOVED NEXT TO PALAIOLOGOS IN MANIAKI/CORONE, AND LEAVE WITH ANDREA DORIA TO SOUTH ITALY.
THE REST ARE ALBANIANS of ITALY.

There is not propoganda here. Arbereshe even if they were 1 mil would make no difference for Albania. They are Italian citizens, in Italian land. The truth is: Arbereshe are all Albanians that went to Italy from 15th to 16th centuary, as a result of Ottoman conquest. Some of them went there From Morea (peloponesis), others from Albania itself. Many were orthodox but some were catholics. The Endonim of Albania at that time was Arberia that's why they call themselves Arberesh. After 17th centuary the endonim of Albania became Shqiperia, so from that time and on Albanians call themself Shqipetare. If I settle today in Italy I will not call myself Arberesh. So ther are 200 000 of them today in Italy. Had they not immigrated en masse to USA, Argentina, Canada, Australia, Brasil their numbers would have been close to 3 milion. Most of Arbereshe settled in not so productive land, and were extremly poor so immigration was a strong magnet. As for Albannians in Italy officialy are 500 000.(excluding Arbereshe). Most of them are italian citisens too. So, again there is no propoganda here. There is nothing to gain from false propoganda. We are stating facts. Either way those facts don't make us look good or bad in any way, so there is no need for propoganda.

zanipolo
08-06-13, 00:48
if you ask zanipolo he will tell you about a church in Venice San Giorgio, where Greeks settled and merchandisefrom 1400.
these people were Greeks not Gracani, cause their story is different,
cause Grecani are the remnants of ancient Greeks in Magna Grecia, and not the Greeks that went after Con/polis fall.
if you name the Greeks that went to Italy at ottoman times 500 years, same with the Greeks of Lecce which are there more than 2500 years you are making a big mistake.




you mean this church, not the other

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Giorgio_dei_Greci

Yetos
08-06-13, 04:27
you mean this church, not the other

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Giorgio_dei_Greci

you know the story.

Anna palaiologos house,
San Giovani Bragora
San Vlassio (Greco Catholic)
san Giorgio de stradioti (dei Greci) ('nazione' cathedrico)

MMaximus
08-06-13, 09:51
as others stated from other studies of this paper:............

The conclusion, that men of the G haplogroup are MESOLITHIC in Europe.

G is concentrated now in the mountains of the Caucasus. And sporadically in the rest of Europe.

Previous orthodoxy was that G's distribution was clinal, radiating from the Caucasus through the Middle East, to Europe, consistent with a Neolithic spread of the "farming" haplogroups.

With recent studies showing:

-G is old
-G is widely distributed and concentrated in refuge/isolated areas from the Alps to the Pyrenees to islands like Sardinia
-G in so many ancient samples

That G was the best candidate for the "original" YC Hg in Europe.

It would make sense that subsequent waves - wave after wave - pushed the marker into the most remote areas, where it survived.

This paper seems to conclude that too. Especially with the age and the close relationship with the G men in remote parts of Germany and remote parts of Italy.

IMO, I agree that G is the first ydna marker in Italy


I think it depends on the subgroup of G...the NWI Cluster (Cluster #1) in the study appears to be G-L497 and peaks in Tuscany (LaSpezia/Massa) and Veneto (Vicenza and Treviso) plus Foligno and Brescia. If the age estimate is correct...3608 years...that would match up pretty well with the start of the Terramare Culture and from a map of the spread of the later Villanovan culture it compares pretty close.

So G-L497 could possibly be associated with the spread of a branch of the Urnfield culture into Italy which left related people on the other side of the Alps in Switzerland/Austria where we also find a cluster of G-L497 (Many associate this cluster with the Raeti).

Just a thought

zanipolo
08-06-13, 21:01
I think it depends on the subgroup of G...the NWI Cluster (Cluster #1) in the study appears to be G-L497 and peaks in Tuscany (LaSpezia/Massa) and Veneto (Vicenza and Treviso) plus Foligno and Brescia. If the age estimate is correct...3608 years...that would match up pretty well with the start of the Terramare Culture and from a map of the spread of the later Villanovan culture it compares pretty close.

So G-L497 could possibly be associated with the spread of a branch of the Urnfield culture into Italy which left related people on the other side of the Alps in Switzerland/Austria where we also find a cluster of G-L497 (Many associate this cluster with the Raeti).

Just a thought

possible,
but lets remove national borders in this forum as it should be removed
and the ancient G would be united in the alpine areas, in bavaria, tyrol, lombardy, veneto, piedmont, swiss etc ...........and down the peninsula of Italy.....the culture in question would have been shared by all who made contact with it.

G-L497 as you say can be associated with the raeti, but the raeti where neighbours of the vindelici of bavaria, the norici of east austria, the venetics of north-east Italy, the ligurians of north-west Italy. there where 45 tribes of raeti , they where not a small populace.

foligno was ancient southern etruscan lands and brescia was raeti lands, later gallic cennomani tribe people. Is there a possiblility that L497 emerged from the alps?

zanipolo
08-06-13, 21:03
you know the story.

Anna palaiologos house,
San Giovani Bragora
San Vlassio (Greco Catholic)
san Giorgio de stradioti (dei Greci) ('nazione' cathedrico)

no, I only know that a palaiologos was part of the byzantine nobility and that once byzantine fell to the ottomans, one of these was made a capitan of the stradiotti in the morea

zanipolo
08-06-13, 21:07
In regards to L ydna in the paper, the 8.2% for north-east Italy did not include anyone from south-tyrol which on its own has between 5 and 7%............so the numbers could be 9% plus

Yetos
08-06-13, 21:24
no, I only know that a palaiologos was part of the byzantine nobility and that once byzantine fell to the ottomans, one of these was made a capitan of the stradiotti in the morea

correct,
after Con/polis fall,
many of them move West,
some went to Venice, and creted Stradioti (Στρατιωτης)
but was forbiden in Venice for Orthodox, so they had private chappel in Anna's house,
Anna was the last wife of Palaiologos. and later she maried Venitian Mario Kontarini (maybe Contarini).
well she had a personal small church ate her house.




San Giorgio dei Stradioti was build due a law of Venicians according which 'natione' could have have some autonomy.

my point was that we could not count these people, to the same category with Grecani who were in Italy 2500 years,

zanipolo
09-06-13, 03:26
correct,
after Con/polis fall,
many of them move West,
some went to Venice, and creted Stradioti (Στρατιωτης)
but was forbiden in Venice for Orthodox, so they had private chappel in Anna's house,
Anna was the last wife of Palaiologos. and later she maried Venitian Mario Kontarini (maybe Contarini).
well she had a personal small church ate her house.




San Giorgio dei Stradioti was build due a law of Venicians according which 'natione' could have have some autonomy.

my point was that we could count these people, to the same category with Grecani who were in Italy 2500 years,

orthodox religion was banned in Venice because the orthodox would not allow the venetian senate to name the orthodox priests that presided in Venice, like they did with every other religion.
Priests where executed in Venice if found to create or be involved in criminal acts or going against the republic.
Armenians had their church, slavs and protestants as well......never an issue....because Venice dictated the clergy for these religions.

even 10 plus excommunication by the catholic church ( pope) would not change the laws of venice

zanipolo
10-06-13, 23:18
clearly there is a lack of Ydna information in NEI

no south tyrol was used

and NO ydna from Friuli

we rely on the 2012 paper which clearly states udine for our numbers

Sile
08-08-13, 08:26
new paper on STR of Lombard northern Italians

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3692336/

Eldritch
08-08-13, 15:46
new paper on STR of Lombard northern Italians

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3692336/
Extremely outdated nomenclature.

Sile
09-08-13, 09:39
Extremely outdated nomenclature.

I do not understand you by your meaning outdated, the paper was released in June 2013. Please explain.

apulomilan
25-09-13, 17:22
I would assume that the 7.1% R1b-U152 in Sicily is associated with the Medieval Lombards from Lombardy

Medieval Lombards could have contributed to R1-U152 presence in Sicily, but not predominantly.

Don't forget that the ancient population named "Siculi" were problably Italics. The low ratio of R1b-U152 legacy in Sicily is compatible with a penetrations of Italics in South Italy (and Sicily) mailny through military elites that managed to dominate more or less extended territories.

adamo
25-09-13, 22:12
According to the generally very low I and R1a frequencies in Sicily (other than in Lombard settled regions) I believe the SICANI where a high R1b % group. The Siculi may have been the colonizing early era Minoan/Mycenean Greeks, at that time probably considered a Pelasgian sea people's group.

apulomilan
26-09-13, 01:51
According to the generally very low I and R1a frequencies in Sicily (other than in Lombard settled regions) I believe the SICANI where a high R1b % group. The Siculi may have been the colonizing early era Minoan/Mycenean Greeks, at that time probably considered a Pelasgian sea people's group.

Siculi were probably (predominantly) italics, while there is controversy concerning the (predominant) indoeuropean or preindoeuropean origin of Sicani.

What is clear from the R1b-U152 distribution map in Sicily is that this haplogroup increases from east to west, thus suggesting the push westward of original italics populations from the greek colonization, very strong and deep in the east part of the island (where, in fact, high ratio of eastern R1-ht35 is found).

adamo
26-09-13, 03:02
What I'm trying to say is that the SICANI where the italics and Siculi where Greeks, as Elymians where Trojans and there where Phoenicians and later arab,Saracen,Norman,Lombard etc. invasions that also minimally altered the island's genetic composition depending on the region.

Nobody1
26-09-13, 07:04
What I'm trying to say is that the SICANI where the italics and Siculi where Greeks, as Elymians where Trojans and there where Phoenicians and later arab,Saracen,Norman,Lombard etc. invasions that also minimally altered the island's genetic composition depending on the region.

The Sicani/Σικανοί were Iberians - driven from the Ebro when the Ligurians invaded Iberia;

Thucydides - Book VI/XVIII
The Sicanians appear to have been the next settlers, although they pretend to have been the first of all and aborigines; but the facts show that they were Iberians, driven by the Ligurians from the river Sicanus in Iberia. It was from them that the island, before called Trinacria, took its name of Sicania, and to the present day they inhabit the west of Sicily.

Dionysius of Halicarnassus - Book I/XXII
The Sicels.....being driven away from every place, they at last prepared rafts at the Strait and, watching for a downward current, passed over from Italy to the adjacent island. It was then occupied by the Sicanians, an Iberian nation, who, fleeing from the Ligurians, had but lately settled there and had caused the island, previously named Trinacria, from its triangular shape, to be called Sicania, after themselves.

Edwin Guest - Origines Celticae (1883)
Emporion lay a little north of Barcelona, and in calling it the Liguan Emporion Scylax agrees with Thucydides, who represents the Iberian Sicanoi as having been expelled by the Ligues (Ligures) from the Sikanos, i.e. from the basin of the Ebro. Next to the Ligues, who dwelt in the neighbourhood of this river, came the mixed Iberes, who reached as far as the Rhone. Festus Avienus makes this river the dividing line between the Iberes and the Ligures, who inhabited the Alpine district.

DiGaetano et al 2008 -
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/full/ejhg2008120a.html
West Sicily is 30.3% R1b-M269 (122 samples)
East Sicily is 18.4% R1b-M269 (114 samples)

adamo
26-09-13, 09:55
There you go; Nobody hit the nail on the head, the SICANI where IBeRIaNs with a probably west European profile (not to mention the Ligures that expelled them)

Sile
26-09-13, 09:56
90% of Ancient Greeks in italy came from corinth area, even Ancona had corinthians from syracuse. Corfu had corinthinas from Syracuse...

Unsure if corinthians at that time where Doric or NW-Greeks

adamo
26-09-13, 11:45
Gela was founded by colonizers from Rhodes and Crete. From Gela they would then found Agrigento. The first sailors to reach Naples came from the island of Rhodes and founded there a small port called Parthenope. Syracuse was founded by Achaeans, Reggio was founded by Ionians, Elea was founded by Greeks who fled from Phocaea in turkey and the founders of Croton where from Rhypes and of probably Achaean Greek origin. I see much more than just Dorian/spartan/lacaedamonian colonization although there WHERE Dorian colonies in Italy as well of Corinthian/Spartan origin.

apulomilan
26-09-13, 14:59
The Sicani/Σικανοί were Iberians - driven from the Ebro when the Ligurians invaded Iberia;

Thucydides - Book VI/XVIII
The Sicanians appear to have been the next settlers, although they pretend to have been the first of all and aborigines; but the facts show that they were Iberians, driven by the Ligurians from the river Sicanus in Iberia. It was from them that the island, before called Trinacria, took its name of Sicania, and to the present day they inhabit the west of Sicily.

Dionysius of Halicarnassus - Book I/XXII
The Sicels.....being driven away from every place, they at last prepared rafts at the Strait and, watching for a downward current, passed over from Italy to the adjacent island. It was then occupied by the Sicanians, an Iberian nation, who, fleeing from the Ligurians, had but lately settled there and had caused the island, previously named Trinacria, from its triangular shape, to be called Sicania, after themselves.

Edwin Guest - Origines Celticae (1883)
Emporion lay a little north of Barcelona, and in calling it the Liguan Emporion Scylax agrees with Thucydides, who represents the Iberian Sicanoi as having been expelled by the Ligues (Ligures) from the Sikanos, i.e. from the basin of the Ebro. Next to the Ligues, who dwelt in the neighbourhood of this river, came the mixed Iberes, who reached as far as the Rhone. Festus Avienus makes this river the dividing line between the Iberes and the Ligures, who inhabited the Alpine district.

DiGaetano et al 2008 -
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/full/ejhg2008120a.html
West Sicily is 30.3% R1b-M269 (122 samples)
East Sicily is 18.4% R1b-M269 (114 samples)

What if we give a prize to Nobody1 (at least) as the fastest relevant data hunter on the web?

Nobody1, I like your way of communicating by representing facts (by the way, as on the forum the genetic character traits are discussed: that's very german of you).

adamo
26-09-13, 15:57
You must operate at low intelligence levels Apuloman, and Yaan just got GRILLED with the dislikes, that will teach him

Nobody1
29-09-13, 11:01
What if we give a prize to Nobody1 (at least) as the fastest relevant data hunter on the web?

Nobody1, I like your way of communicating by representing facts (by the way, as on the forum the genetic character traits are discussed: that's very german of you).

Thank you;
As for my prize - i will PM you my Bank Account numbers ASAP;

Dont know if its much German character; posting facts is just common decency; goes without saying;

Sile
10-10-13, 07:26
why is the 67 trentino tested people not included in Maciano data ( as well as all the other nations )

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947100/

The numbers are easy to work out.

If they are already included, the paperwork is not listed as being used

adamo
10-10-13, 08:28
Is it just me or at 56,6% does Hungary have astronomically high R1a levels according to this study? 40% of Slovenes and Czechs even Croats (35%) in some studies, okay, I knew that, then Ukraine 50%, ok and I always knew Poland had abnormally high levels, highest R1a levels at 55-60% of males but could it be that HUnGARY that Finno-utricle speaking country has equally tremendous frequencies (56.5%!)

adamo
10-10-13, 08:32
I was always told that Hungary had much less than that around 20% but I had heard stories of 40% but never ever higher. But I know the portion of Croatian touching Hungary is the portion with countries highest R1a at 35-45% of males, quite a nice strip of Croatia bordering Hungary including the Zagreb,Zabok, Osijek regions of the country; about 40-45% of men from Osijek Croatia are R1a, about 35-40% in Zabok and similar frequencies in Zagreb. Towards Delnice and Krk though for example, the frequencies slightly drop.

Barellalee
22-04-14, 04:35
I am MtDNA J2a1 with no further Mutations, and of Matrilineal descent from Tuscany, Italy. Apparently, this Subclade occurs at a low frequency across western, central, and northern Europe, with small inclines (2%-5%) in the Alps and northern Germany. Strange distribution, and very difficult, at least for me, to pin on any archaeological culture.

Nobody1
22-04-14, 11:08
I am MtDNA J2a1 with no further Mutations, and of Matrilineal descent from Tuscany, Italy. Apparently, this Subclade occurs at a low frequency across western, central, and northern Europe, with small inclines (2%-5%) in the Alps and northern Germany. Strange distribution, and very difficult, at least for me, to pin on any archaeological culture.

I have a question about your Y-DNA;
Is it I2a1c or I2a1a (L1286 L233) ?
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

barbastrejo
10-05-15, 13:34
a new survey on Italian ydna and mtdna


oddities are

I1 only in North East Italy and romagna area

- L ydna of 8.2% in North east Italy

and for adamo....you line is only in central and south Italy


to the others ...enjoy

maybe Maciano can use these numbers to update his data

another site with different perspectives


Hi, sorry for my English.
I have done the test with Geno 2.0, and the result is R-L671 and H1A3.
I'm Italian from the North-East.
Someone can explain me the result?
Thank you