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Maciamo
06-06-13, 17:34
Here is the breakdown of E1b1b subclades by province based on the recent study by Boattini et al. (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441).

North Italy

In Cuneo, south-west Piedmont, 2 out of 30 samples are E1b1b (6.5%), among which one E-V13 (3.5%) and one E-V65 (3.5%).

In Savona/Genova, central Liguria, 8 out of 50 samples are E1b1b (16%), among which seven E-V13 (14%) and one E-V22 (2%).

In Como, north-west Lombardy, 5 out of 41 samples are E1b1b (12%), among which four E-V13 (9.5%) and one E-M78 (2.5%).

In Brescia, north-east Lombardy, 3 out of 39 samples are E1b1b (7.5%), among which two E-V13 (5%) and one E-M123 (2.5%).

In Vicenza, central-west Veneto, 7 out of 40 samples are E1b1b (17.5%), among which five E-V13 (12.5%), one E-M123 (2.5%) and one E-V22 (2.5%).

In Treviso, central-east Veneto, 3 out of 30 samples are E1b1b (10%), among which two E-V13 (6.5%) and one E-M123 (3.5%).

In Bologna, central Emilia-Romagna, 3 out of 29 samples E1b1b (10.5%), among which two E-V13 (7%) and one E-M81 (3.5%).


Central Italy

In La Spezia-Massa, north-west Tuscany, no E1b1b (0%) was found out of 24 samples.

In Pistoia, central-north Tuscany, only one E-V13 (7.5%) sample was found out of 13 samples.

In Grosetto-Siena, southern Tuscany, only 13 out of 86 samples are E1b1b (15%), among which five E-V13 (6%), three E-V12 (3.5%), three E-M123 (3.5%), one E-M81 (1%) and one E-V22 (1%).

In Foligno, central-east Umbria, 3 out of 37 samples are E1b1b (8%), among which two E-V13 (5.5%), and one E-V65 (2.5%).

In Macerata, central-east Marche, 5 out of 40 samples are E1b1b (12.5%), among which three E-V13 (7.5%), and two E-M123 (5%).


South Italy

In L'Aquila, Abruzzo, 3 out of 23 samples are E1b1b (13%), all of which were E-V13 (13%).

In Campobasso, Molise, 4 out of 29 samples are E1b1b (14%), among which two E-V13 (7%), one E-M123 (3.5%), and one E-M35 (3.5%).

In Benevento, Campania, 7 out of 36 samples are E1b1b (19.5%), among which three E-V13 (8.5%), three E-M123 (8.5%), and one E-V22 (2.5%).

In Matera, Basilicata, 6 samples out of 25 are E1b1b (24%), among which two E-V13 (8%), two E-V22 (8%), one E-V12 (4%) and one E-M123 (4%).

In Lecce, Apulia, 6 out of 39 samples are E1b1b (15.5%), all of which were E-V13 (15.5%).

In Cosenza/Catanzaro/Crotone, Calabria, 7 out of 38 samples were E1b1b (18.5%), among which four E-V13 (10.5%), one E-M81 (2.5%), one E-V12 (2.5%) and one E-M123 (2.5%).

In Catania, eastern Sicily, 22 out of 62 samples are E1b1b (13%), among which three E-V13 (5%), one E-M35 (1.5%), one E-M123 (1.5%), one E-M81 (1.5%), one E-V12 (1.5%), and one E-V22 (1.5%).

In Ragusa, southeast Sicily, 6 out of 44 samples are E1b1b (13.5%), among which three E-V13 (6%), two E-M81 (4.5%), and one E-V22 (2%).

In Agrigento, southwest Sicily, 9 out of 42 samples are E1b1b (21.5%), among which four E-V13 (9.5%), two E-M35 (5%), one E-V12 (2.5%), one E-V22 (2.5%) and one E-M123 (2.5%). There were also one E1b1a (M2) and one E1a (M33), bringing the total for haplogroup E to 26%.

In Olbia/Tempio/Nuoro, north-east Sardinia, only one E-V13 (2.5%) sample was found out of 40 samples.

In Oristano, central-west Sardinia, 5 out of 42 samples are E1b1b (12%), among which four E-M123 (9.5%) and one E-M81 (2.5%). There were also one E1a (M33), bringing the total for haplogroup E to 14.5%.


E-V13 is clearly the dominant subclade all over Italy, except in Sardinia where it is only found in the north-east, where the Corsican influence is stronger. Sardinians otherwise have more E-M123, the second most common subclade in Italy, and incidentally the one to which belonged Napoleon.

My feeling is still that Neolithic migrations, then the Phoenician and Greek colonisations brought V13 lineages with a minority of M123, V12, V22 and V65 accompanying them. I think that all these subclades were already mixed before the diffusion of agriculture to Europe. The distribution of all these subclades is therefore random. Local variations would be more the result of chance and sampling bias than a mark of separate ancestry. That is why I am not going to bother creating separate maps for these subclades, as they would cause more confusion than enlightenment.

The only E1b1b subclade that represents a clearly separate ancestry is M81, the Carthaginian/Moorish/Maghrebian marker. As expected, M81 is found mostly in Sicily, Calabria and Sardinia. The only other samples found were in the Siena and Bologna regions. Sicily and Sardinia both had Phoenician/Carthaginian colonies. In the 5th century, both became part of the Vandal Kingdom based in in North Africa. Sicily later became an Arabic/Moorish emirate from 831 to 1072. Parts of Calabria were also briefly conquered by the Arabs at the time of the Emirate of Sicily.

M81 is found at low frequencies in the Near East too, so it is probable that the M81 from Tuscany and Emilia are Neolithic origin. I expect that new subclades should soon distinguish Near Eastern M81 from Maghrebian M81.

Vallicanus
06-06-13, 17:40
Don't you mean La Spezia/Massa, North-WEST Tuscany?

Maciamo
06-06-13, 20:41
Don't you mean La Spezia/Massa, North-WEST Tuscany?

Yes, of course.

Maciamo
07-06-13, 11:20
Here is the data from previous studies (subclades not tested).

From Capelli et al. (2007) (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1055790306004866)

North Italy

In Val Badia, Alto Adige, 2 out of 34 samples were E1b1b (6%).

Central Italy

In Elba Island, north-west Tuscany, 7 out of 95 samples were E1b1b (7%).

In Central Tuscany, 4 out of 41 samples were E1b1b (10%).

At the Tuscany-Latium border, 9 out of 79 samples were E1b1b (11.5%).

In the North-East Latium, 14 out of 55 samples were E1b1b (25.5%).

In the South Latium, 3 out of 51 samples were E1b1b (6%).

In Central Marche, 3 out of 59 samples were E1b1b (5%).

In Apennine Marche, 4 out of 27 samples were E1b1b (15%).

South Italy

In West Campania, 15 out of 84 samples were E1b1b (18%).

In North-West Apulia, 2 out of 46 samples were E1b1b (4.5%).

In South Apulia, 16 out of 71 samples were E1b1b (22.5%).

In West Calabria, 9 out of 57 samples were E1b1b (16%).



From Ferri et al. (2007) (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0379073807005816")

Central Italy

In Rimini, eastern Romagna, 15.5% of E1b1b was found out of 98 samples.

In Valmarecchia, eastern Romagna, 20% of E1b1b was found out of 65 samples.



From Di Giacomo et al. (2002) (http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/italy.pdf)

North Italy

In Val di Non, Trentino-Alto Adige, no E1b1b was found (0%) out of 30 samples.

In Verona, west Veneto, 9% of E1b1b was found out of 22 samples.

In Genoa, central Liguria, 24% of E1b1b was found out of 29 samples.

Central Italy

In Garfagnana, north-west Tuscany, 2.5% of E1b1b was found out of 42 samples.

South Italy

In L'Aquila, west Abruzzo, 11.5% of E1b1b was found out of 35 samples.

In Pescara, east Abruzzo, 15% of E1b1b was found out of 20 samples.

In Avezzano, south-west Abruzzo, 7% of E1b1b was found out of 29 samples.

In the North Gargano peninsula, northern Apulia, 24% of E1b1b was found out of 29 samples.

In Foggia, northern Apulia, 11% of E1b1b was found out of 27 samples.

In Benevento, central-east Campania, 17.5% of E1b1b was found out of 46 samples.

In the Cilento peninsula, southern Campania, 12.5% of E1b1b was found out of 48 samples.

In Casarano, southern Apulia, 20% of E1b1b was found out of 20 samples.

In Brindisi, central-east Apulia, 26.5% of E1b1b was found out of 38 samples.

In Altamura, central-west Apulia, 36% of E1b1b was found out of 25 samples.

In Matera, central-east Basilicata, 25% of E1b1b was found out of 24 samples.

In Paola, north-west Calabria, 11% of E1b1b was found out of 27 samples.

In Reggio Calabriab, southern Calabria, 27.5% of E1b1b was found out of 33 samples.


Battaglia et al. 2008 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947100/)

North Italy

Trento, southern Trentino-Alto-Adige, 3% of E1b1b was found out of 67 samples + 1.5% of E1a.


From Onofri et al. (2007) (http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00414-007-0153-y)

Central Italy

In Urbino, northern Marche, 19% of E1b1b was found out of 37 samples.

In Fabriano, central-west Marche, 23% of E1b1b was found out of 44 samples.


From Brisighelli et al. (2012) (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0050794)

North Italy

In Udine, central-east Friuli-Venezia Giulia, 6.5% of E1b1b was found out of 47 samples.

In eastern Liguria, 15% of E1b1b was found out of 46 samples.

Central Italy

In north-west Marche (Piceni), 8.5% of E1b1b was found out of 38 samples.

In South Latium (Latini), 8.5% of E1b1b was found out of 44 samples.

South Italy

In Lucera, nortern Apulia, 21.5% of E1b1b was found out of 60 samples.

In central Basilicata (Saniti), 6.5% of E1b1b was found out of 30 samples.

In central Apulia (Salentine Greek), 19% of E1b1b was found out of 47 samples.

In southern Apulia, 24% of E1b1b was found out of 49 samples.

In north-west Calabria (Belvedere), 6.5% of E1b1b was found out of 27 samples.

In Sicily (Catania + Trapani), 15.5% of E1b1b was found out of 57 samples.


From Di Gaetano et al. (2009) (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/full/ejhg2008120a.html) (subclades available)

Sicily

In Trapani, north-west Sicily, 12% of E1b1b was found out of 33 samples.

In Mazara del Valo, south-west Sicily, 22% of E1b1b was found out off 18 samples.

In Santa Ninfa, western Sicily, 19.5% of E1b1b was found out of 31 samples.

In Alcamo, north-west Sicily, 0% of E1b1b was found out of 24 samples.

In Caccamo, north-west Sicily, 12.5% of E1b1b was found out of 16 samples.

In Sciacca, south-west Sicily, 14% of E1b1b was found out of 28 samples.

In Troina, north-east Sicily, 26.5% of E1b1b was found out of 28 samples.

In Piazza Armerina, central-east Sicily, 43% (!) of E1b1b was found out of 30 samples.

In Ragusa, south-east Sicily, 10.5% of E1b1b was found out of 28 samples.


From Contu et al. (2008) (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0001430)

Sardinia

In Tempio, northern Sardinia, 11 out of 86 samples were E1b1b (13%).

In Sorgono, central Sardinia, 8 out of 103 samples were E1b1b (8%).

In Cagliari, southern Sardinia, 20 out of 187 samples were E1b1b (10.5%).

Nobody1
07-06-13, 13:12
Combining all the studies from Boattini et al 2013 and the past; it is very obvious that:


E-M78 [V-12 / V-13 / V-22 / V-65] and E-M123 [E-M34]
are (by far) the most dominant E-Hg's all across Italy;
E-M78 and E-M123 being North African and Levantine;
M78 + M123 = 11.7% NW Italy / 15.1% NE Italy / 10.4% C Italy / 16.6% S Italy -Boattini 2013
M78 + M123 = 10.5% N Italy / 11.2% C Italy / 13.8% S Italy -Cruciani 2004
M78 + M123 (Sicily) = 12.7% -Boattini 2013 / 20.6% -Cruciani 2004 / 16.0% -DiGaetano 2009

E-M81 ranges from absantee to low frequencies in the North, Central, South and Sardinia but is always present in Sicily;
E-M81 being Maghrebin (Berber) North African;
North = 0% Semino 2004 / 0% Boattini 2013 / 1.5% Cruciani 2004
Central = 0% Semino 2004 / 0% Boattini 2013 / 2.2% Cruciani 2004
Tuscany = 0.8% Boattini 2013
South = 1.3% Semino 2004 / 0.5% Boattini 2013 / 0% Cruciani 2004
Sicily = 5.5% Semino 2004 / 2.8% Boattini 2013 / 0.7% Cruciani 2004 / 2.1% DiGaetano 2009
Sardinia = 0% Semino 2004 / 1.2% Boattini 2013 / 0.3% Cruciani 2004

The Exotic E-Hg's [M-33 / M-2 West African and M-35 East African] only appear
in S Italy, Sicily and Sardinia
M-33 + M-35 + M-2 = 0.5% in S. Italy / 1.2% in Sardinia / 3.5% in Sicily -Boattini 2013
(1.6% Sardinia -Cruciani 2004)

---

Cruciani et al 2004 - Global Hg E
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181964/?tool=pmcentrez

Cruciani et al 2007 - Global E-M78
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html

Eldritch
07-06-13, 13:51
Not surprisingly the highest E-V13 is in the Apulian city of Lecce.

Also from DiGiacomo et al. Altamura haves 36% of E1b1b which is not few.

Maciamo
07-06-13, 15:30
I have updated the E1b1b map (don't forget to refresh your browser as usual).

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg

Prengu
07-06-13, 16:33
From this study found 15.8% E3b

Prengu
07-06-13, 16:51
My feeling is still that Neolithic migrations, then the Phoenician and Greek colonisations brought V13 lineages with a minority of M123, V12, V22 and V65 accompanying them.

You exclude Illyrians which they colonizated Italy much as Greeks. Even most of E-V13 found in the territory where Illyrian tribes lived.
Phoenician has nothing to do E-V13, they rather were J2.

http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~klio/maps/rr/colonies.jpg
http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope/History/balkans-map/iron-age-transition1.gif

Eldritch
07-06-13, 16:57
Correct me if i'm wrong but aren't Messapians, a supposed Illyrian tribe, to have settled in Apulia?

That would explain the E-V13 and would clear once for all the I2a1b presence in Balkans since it demonstrates it wasn't imported in Italy at all.

Nobody1
07-06-13, 17:42
Correct me if i'm wrong but aren't Messapians, a supposed Illyrian tribe, to have settled in Apulia?

Yes,

The Iapyges - [Messapii - Peucetii - Dauni] were Illyrian tribes all located in the South East [Apulia]

The Illyrian tribes of the Apulia were in constant warfare with Magna Graecia and the Greeks; first the Iapygian King Opis was killed in battle but than the Iapyges had the decisive victory over the Greeks;

Herodotus -
Iapygians, and at the same time becoming inhabitants of the mainland instead of islanders. From Hyria they afterwards founded those other towns which the Tarentines at a much later period endeavoured to take, but could not, being defeated signally. Indeed so dreadful a slaughter of Greeks never happened at any other time, so far as my knowledge extends: nor was it only the Tarentines who suffered; but the men of Rhegium too, who had been forced to go to the aid of the Tarentines by Micythus the son of Choerus, lost here three thousand of their citizens; while the number of the Tarentines who fell was beyond all count.

Carl Huffman - Archytas of Tarentum (2005) [Cambridge Uni.]
Even more important was a defeat suffered by Tarentum and her ally Rhegium at the hands of the Iapygians in 473 (D.S. x1. 52). Herodotus says that this was the greatest slaughter of Greeks of which he knows; 3,000 soldiers from Rhegium alone died, with no number having been put to the Tarentine dead (vn. 170). Aristotle tells us that so many Tarentine nobles were killed in this battle that democratic elements in the state were able to change the constitution to a democracy from a constitutional government (Pol. 1303a).

Iapyges is the name of all Illyrians in the Apulia [Messapii - Peucetii - Dauni]

Eldritch
07-06-13, 18:13
@Nobody1

Which male lines do you think this Iapyges carried into Italy i tend to believe E-V13 and maybe some R1b too.

adamo
07-06-13, 19:40
The iapyges where J2. What Iapyges was of E-V13 was Magna Grecia influence. Legends have it the iapygians and their three tribes came from CRETE, not the Illyrian coast. If Opus/Opis have anything to do with southern italian Opici/Oscans, then the oscans where Cretans mixed with Umbrian type people's once in Italy. Look up ancient cities of the messapi, peucetii, and dauni; their records state the founding fathers where Cretans in Iapygia (modern day apulia). J2 peaks at some 40-45% in the gargano region near Foggia in northern apulia; R1b is as low as 10-15%. Peucetis, daunus and Messapus where also three of the fifty sons of LYcaon, who hailed from Lycaonia (south-central turkey) not far from the Lukka lands (Lycia). This tells us that these Cretans where formerly anatolians such as Lydians, high in middle eastern J2a. Study after study proves that apulian J2's cluster closer to Turks while many calabrese J2's cluster more with the mainland Greeks.

Shetop
07-06-13, 19:48
I have updated the E1b1b map (don't forget to refresh your browser as usual).


Southwest Bulgaria (including Sofia) is bellow 20%. And this is based on a solid sample from the last bulgarian study.

Shetop
07-06-13, 20:43
Also for Romania, based on three different researches the distribution does not comply with the map. From that data I would conclude this:
Transylvania 15-20%
Wallachia around 15%
Romanian Moldavia around 10%

zanipolo
07-06-13, 21:16
Correct me if i'm wrong but aren't Messapians, a supposed Illyrian tribe, to have settled in Apulia?

That would explain the E-V13 and would clear once for all the I2a1b presence in Balkans since it demonstrates it wasn't imported in Italy at all.

there is talk that the messapii are epirotes because Pyrrhus the great invasion of italy against the romans spoke and recruited messapii troops . Pyrrhus was king of the epirotes.
But he also knew Greek, but gained no support militarily from the then Greek southern italian towns of taranto etc.


the only link that messapii was illyrian was IF when the illyrians ( only liburni illyrians ) conquered corfu and where eventually thrown out by the greeks, the remainder of these settled in messapii. But a linguistic link was never proven

zanipolo
07-06-13, 21:29
Yes,

The Iapyges - [Messapii - Peucetii - Dauni] were Illyrian tribes all located in the South East [Apulia]

The Illyrian tribes of the Apulia were in constant warfare with Magna Graecia and the Greeks; first the Iapygian King Opis was killed in battle but than the Iapyges had the decisive victory over the Greeks;

Herodotus -
Iapygians, and at the same time becoming inhabitants of the mainland instead of islanders. From Hyria they afterwards founded those other towns which the Tarentines at a much later period endeavoured to take, but could not, being defeated signally. Indeed so dreadful a slaughter of Greeks never happened at any other time, so far as my knowledge extends: nor was it only the Tarentines who suffered; but the men of Rhegium too, who had been forced to go to the aid of the Tarentines by Micythus the son of Choerus, lost here three thousand of their citizens; while the number of the Tarentines who fell was beyond all count.

Carl Huffman - Archytas of Tarentum (2005) [Cambridge Uni.]
Even more important was a defeat suffered by Tarentum and her ally Rhegium at the hands of the Iapygians in 473 (D.S. x1. 52). Herodotus says that this was the greatest slaughter of Greeks of which he knows; 3,000 soldiers from Rhegium alone died, with no number having been put to the Tarentine dead (vn. 170). Aristotle tells us that so many Tarentine nobles were killed in this battle that democratic elements in the state were able to change the constitution to a democracy from a constitutional government (Pol. 1303a).

Iapyges is the name of all Illyrians in the Apulia [Messapii - Peucetii - Dauni]

you are mixing up your tribes

The Iapydes (or Iapodes, Japodes, Giapidi) (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language),"Ιάποδες") were an ancient people who dwelt north of and inland from the Liburnians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburnians), off the Adriatic coast and eastwards of the Istrian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istria) peninsula. They occupied the interior of the country between the Colapis (Kupa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kupa_%28river%29)) and Oeneus (Una (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Una_%28Sava%29)) rivers, and the Velebit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velebit) mountain range (Mons Baebius) which separated them from the coastal Liburnians. Their territory covered the central inlands of modern Croatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia) and Una River Valley in today's Bosnia and Herzegovina. Archaeological documentation confirms their presence in these countries at least from 9th century BC, and they persisted in their area longer than a millennium. The ancient written documentation on inland Iapydes is scarcer than on the adjacent coastal peoples (Liburni, Delmatae, etc.) that had more frequent maritime contacts with ancient Greeks and Romans.

Iapyges are land locked illyrians basically modern eastern Bosnia. They have
13.3% R1a
26.67% R1b
13.33% E3b
6.67% J2
0 I1b
remainders is other types

study from 2007-2010

the highest E are the Dardanians from modern Kosovo at 36.80% and the Taulanti in northern Albania or ancient EpirusNova at 27%.
Taulanti where either illyrian or epirotes? Pyrrhus the king of Epirus from the southern molossian people seeked refuge as a boy with the king of the taulanti confederation once the macedonians overun his epirote Molossian people.

adamo
07-06-13, 21:32
I believe that to be false personally.

zanipolo
07-06-13, 21:34
Peucii people
There are 2 tribes, south peucii spoke an umbrian dialect and it is recorded as being non-illyrian and north peucii spoke liburnian ( illyrian )

Liburni illyrians
38.4% R1a
16.40% R1b
0 % E3b
10.9% J2
9.50% I1b

adamo
07-06-13, 21:58
Pecetius and daunus are sons of Lycaon, not to mention Messapus. Iapygians is based off a hero of Crete, Iapyx.

adamo
07-06-13, 21:59
Lycaon was son of Pelasgus

Nobody1
07-06-13, 22:13
you are mixing up your tribes

No there is not a mix up,

The Iapyges of Apulia are Illyrians [coming from the Balkans] and pos. stemm from the Iapydes (Iapodes) in Illyria;

Herodotus, Strabo, Polybius all clearly account the Iapyges (Messapii - Dauni - Peucenii) in Southern Italy;
Herodotus according to the Greek Mythology accounts the Messapi to be Cretans brothers of Icarus;
But the Messapic language is Indo-European;

The Iapyges [Dauni - Messapii] are also Archaeologically attested all across Apulia; also their Linguistic inscriptions are all across Apulia. - Prof. Whatmough

I think you are mixing the Piceni with the Peucenti;
the Piceni were Sabellian [Umbrian] and the Peucenti were Illyrian


Pecetius and daunus are sons of Lycaon, not to mention Messapus. Iapygians is based off a hero of Crete, Iapyx.

Yes, but this is Mythology
[I]Messapic is def. Indo-European;

Yetos
07-06-13, 22:49
@ Nobody,

how certain you are hat Iapodes and Iapyges are the same?

Καλαβρια Calabria if we exclude the Greek Καλος+φρεαρ (Βρυα), then we see Thracian -Bria.

messapians we see mess- a common we found in Peloponese Messenia, Crete Messara etc.

we know that Messapians spoke an IE language which today small vocabulary survived in Aromani, Romanian, and Albanian, since they moved to Balkans from Messapia.


Strabo mentions about Iapodes that they lived and tatoo like Getans, but they were armed like Celts and they eat zea bread something that also Greeks did, especially in campaigns (Ζειδωρον + Οψον)

adamo
07-06-13, 23:42
Iapyges used Mycenaean Greek pottery + culture and came from Crete; they where classified as a J2 "pelasgic" type; they would have been similar to Lydians lycians and Carians.

zanipolo
08-06-13, 00:58
@ Nobody,

how certain you are hat Iapodes and Iapyges are the same?

Καλαβρια Calabria if we exclude the Greek Καλος+φρεαρ (Βρυα), then we see Thracian -Bria.

messapians we see mess- a common we found in Peloponese Messenia, Crete Messara etc.

we know that Messapians spoke an IE language which today small vocabulary survived in Aromani, Romanian, and Albanian, since they moved to Balkans from Messapia.


Strabo mentions about Iapodes that they lived and tatoo like Getans, but they were armed like Celts and they eat zea bread something that also Greeks did, especially in campaigns (Ζειδωρον + Οψον)

Iapodes became Illyro-thracian people as the thracians pushed from east to west to stop the incursion of the celts from the west. the illyrians by strabo times where already celtinized

MOESAN
09-06-13, 14:47
Here is the data from previous studies (subclades not tested).

From Capelli et al. (2007) (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1055790306004866)

North Italy

In Val Badia, Alto Adige, 2 out of 34 samples were E1b1b (6%).

Central Italy

In Elba Island, north-west Tuscany, 7 out of 95 samples were E1b1b (7%).

In Central Tuscany, 4 out of 41 samples were E1b1b (10%).

At the Tuscany-Latium border, 9 out of 79 samples were E1b1b (11.5%).

In the North-East Latium, 14 out of 55 samples were E1b1b (25.5%).

In the South Latium, 3 out of 51 samples were E1b1b (6%).

In Central Marche, 3 out of 59 samples were E1b1b (5%).

In Apennine Marche, 4 out of 27 samples were E1b1b (15%).

South Italy

In West Campania, 15 out of 84 samples were E1b1b (18%).

In North-West Apulia, 2 out of 46 samples were E1b1b (4.5%).

In South Apulia, 16 out of 71 samples were E1b1b (22.5%).

In West Calabria, 9 out of 57 samples were E1b1b (16%).



From Ferri et al. (2007) (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0379073807005816")

Central Italy

In Rimini, eastern Romagna, 15.5% of E1b1b was found out of 98 samples.

In Valmarecchia, eastern Romagna, 20% of E1b1b was found out of 65 samples.



From Di Giacomo et al. (2002) (http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/italy.pdf)

North Italy

In Val di Non, Trentino-Alto Adige, no E1b1b was found (0%) out of 30 samples.

In Verona, west Veneto, 9% of E1b1b was found out of 22 samples.

In Genoa, central Liguria, 24% of E1b1b was found out of 29 samples.

Central Italy

In Garfagnana, north-west Tuscany, 2.5% of E1b1b was found out of 42 samples.

South Italy

In L'Aquila, west Abruzzo, 11.5% of E1b1b was found out of 35 samples.

In Pescara, east Abruzzo, 15% of E1b1b was found out of 20 samples.

In Avezzano, south-west Abruzzo, 7% of E1b1b was found out of 29 samples.

In the North Gargano peninsula, northern Apulia, 24% of E1b1b was found out of 29 samples.

In Foggia, northern Apulia, 11% of E1b1b was found out of 27 samples.

In Benevento, central-east Campania, 17.5% of E1b1b was found out of 46 samples.

In the Cilento peninsula, southern Campania, 12.5% of E1b1b was found out of 48 samples.

In Casarano, southern Apulia, 20% of E1b1b was found out of 20 samples.

In Brindisi, central-east Apulia, 26.5% of E1b1b was found out of 38 samples.

In Altamura, central-west Apulia, 36% of E1b1b was found out of 25 samples.

In Matera, central-east Basilicata, 25% of E1b1b was found out of 24 samples.

In Paola, north-west Calabria, 11% of E1b1b was found out of 27 samples.

In Reggio Calabriab, southern Calabria, 27.5% of E1b1b was found out of 33 samples.


From Onofri et al. (2007) (http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00414-007-0153-y)

Central Italy

In Urbino, northern Marche, 19% of E1b1b was found out of 37 samples.

In Fabriano, central-west Marche, 23% of E1b1b was found out of 44 samples.


From Brisighelli et al. (2012) (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0050794)

North Italy

In Udine, central-east Friuli-Venezia Giulia, 6.5% of E1b1b was found out of 47 samples.

In eastern Liguria, 15% of E1b1b was found out of 46 samples.

Central Italy

In north-west Marche (Piceni), 8.5% of E1b1b was found out of 38 samples.

In South Latium (Latini), 8.5% of E1b1b was found out of 44 samples.

South Italy

In Lucera, nortern Apulia, 21.5% of E1b1b was found out of 60 samples.

In central Basilicata (Saniti), 6.5% of E1b1b was found out of 30 samples.

In central Apulia (Salentine Greek), 19% of E1b1b was found out of 47 samples.

In southern Apulia, 24% of E1b1b was found out of 49 samples.

In north-west Calabria (Belvedere), 6.5% of E1b1b was found out of 27 samples.

In Sicily (Catania + Trapani), 15.5% of E1b1b was found out of 57 samples.


From Di Gaetano et al. (2009) (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/full/ejhg2008120a.html) (subclades available)

Sicily

In Trapani, north-west Sicily, 12% of E1b1b was found out of 33 samples.

In Mazara del Valo, south-west Sicily, 22% of E1b1b was found out off 18 samples.

In Santa Ninfa, western Sicily, 19.5% of E1b1b was found out of 31 samples.

In Alcamo, north-west Sicily, 0% of E1b1b was found out of 24 samples.

In Caccamo, north-west Sicily, 12.5% of E1b1b was found out of 16 samples.

In Sciacca, south-west Sicily, 14% of E1b1b was found out of 28 samples.

In Troina, north-east Sicily, 26.5% of E1b1b was found out of 28 samples.

In Piazza Armerina, central-east Sicily, 43% (!) of E1b1b was found out of 30 samples.

In Ragusa, south-east Sicily, 10.5% of E1b1b was found out of 28 samples.


From Contu et al. (2008) (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0001430)

Sardinia

In Tempio, northern Sardinia, 11 out of 86 samples were E1b1b (13%).

In Sorgono, central Sardinia, 8 out of 103 samples were E1b1b (8%).

In Cagliari, southern Sardinia, 20 out of 187 samples were E1b1b (10.5%).

Thanks Maciamo: I like when I can speak about precise facts and here you put the samples sizes, what is magic for me!

adamo
03-09-13, 17:01
E3b seems to be found in its highest frequencies in Genoa (24%) most of this of probable Greek colonial origin. Also found in 27% in Reggio Calabria, 20% in Casarano (Apulia) , 26% in Brindisi (Apulia). 25% in Matera (Basilicata) where J frequencies are low, but only R1b and e3b are higher. Also found in 25% of men on the Molise/Apulia border and a high of 36% of males from Altamura have E3b.

Angela
03-09-13, 20:02
How can Genova be highest when you list areas where it is higher? :) And Genova was not a Greek colony on the scale of Massalia. All that is known to us is that there was a Greek trading center there, although the Etruscans were probably there first. We also know that the Cardial Neolithic was strong in Liguria, and E-V13 adna has been found in an ancient Cardial Neolithic site along the northern Mediterranean coast. Genova is sampled for obvious reasons, as it is the largest city and capital of Liguria, but a well done sampling to track ancient movements would not take samples from this kind of city in my opinion. (over a million inhabitants). The People of the British Isles study, for example, strictly took samples from rural areas. In the particular case of Genova, it was also sacked and burned to the ground numerous times, and a majority of it's people died during the Black Plague, so I don't think it's a particularly good sample site.

The highest level in Italy, looking at all the studies, is Piazza Armerina, in central East Sicily, where it is found in 43% of the males according to one study. Unfortunately, there is no breakdown by subclade.

I think it's very problematic trying to assign ydna to ancient tribes mentioned in mythology or very early histories by looking at modern distributions of ydna. There's been some changes since then. Also, even the Boattini study didn't drill down by sub-clade far enough. There were most probably multiple waves of E1b1b into Italy, and each would have come not only at a different time, but probably from different areas. The only possible way to figure it out, absent a lot of adna, would be to have really precise and dated subclades.

Just generally, I think that the vast majority of E1b1b in Italy is due to the Neolithic, Greek colonization where it occurred, perhaps the Phoenicians, and yes, movements in later history from the non-Greek areas of the Balkans. Even in the Neolithic, there is strong evidence that the Neolithic came to Apulia from the Balkans, for example. The Neolithic of north east Italy is also tied to the Balkans. That movement continued. In fact, the only even partly significant gene flow from the outside into Italy since about 500 B.C., is, according to Ralph and Coop, from the Balkans.

I do think there is something to be said about separating out E-V13 from the other subclades. I say this because it seems to me from looking at all the data that there is much more diversity in terms of E1b1b in the center (starting in southern Tuscany) and south of Italy than in the north, where it is almost all E-V13. And I don't think we can attribute it all to the Greeks; E-V13 is present in the shadow of the Alps in respectable quantities. (9.5% in Como, and 6.5% in Treviso, with even Vicenza getting 12.5%) Most of it, I think, is Neolithic, or was swept in by Indo-European movement, part of which probably also came via the Balkans. Just as an aside, it's interesting that total E-M78 +M123 is higher in N.E. Italy than in North West Italy and Central Italy, and just slightly lower than in southern Italy.

The other thing that I think might be important is to check the varieties of E1b1b in the Balkans. I'm not as familiar with those figures. I wonder what non-E-V13 clades show up there? That might help in figuring out when and from where some, at least, of these other clades originated. Was it a slightly different stream of the Neolithic? Was it indeed the Phoenicians, although I've always considered them to be minor players, since all they really did was set up trading centers.

I would be tempted to see these other clades as relics of North African movement into southern Italy (raids went all the way up to Rome) by the Moors, were it not for the extremely low levels of E-M81, *the* Berber clade, which ranges in Sicily from a low of .7% in Cruciani, to a high of 5.5% in Semino. The settlement of Sicily was overwhelmingly by Berbers, not Arabians or Levantines. Either Sicily was so densely populated that their numbers were not enough to make much of an impact, or they were indeed mostly killed and expelled as the histories say, or the proportions of ydna E in North Africa were very different in 800 A.D. than they are now.

The other thing that strikes me about Sicily, and the south, is that E-V13, *the* Greek clade, is not more dominant, which actually makes sense if you think about the fact that the Greek colonies were sporadically situated along the coasts. I think there were Neolithic varieties other than E-V13 already there in Sicily when the Greeks came, and probably some E-V13 as well. I doubt it will actually ever be unraveled.

There's also support for the fact that a lot of this is Neolithic, I think, in that there are a lot of these minor subclades in very interior, mountainous places like Matera. It has the feel of people being pushed into less attractive lands by succeeding migrations. I'm not sure whether Piazza Armerina in Sicily is a good example of that. The area was settled in the Neolithic, but the town itself was only founded by the "Lombards" (i.e. northern Italians of various varieties) during the Norman era...and yet, as I said, it's E1b1b reaches 43%. Perhaps some of it was from Moors who fled to the interior, as the Lombard towns were located in areas that needed to be "pacified". It's impossible to tell how much is attributable to that versus the Neolithic without a very detailed break down of the E1b1b in the area and comparison to other parts of the Mediterranean. A lot of adna would be nice too.

adamo
03-09-13, 20:29
Sicily also has berberid E-M81 that crossed directly from western north-Africa, whereas the vast majority of E3b in Italy and the Balkans has the E-V13 signature. It's on the Iberian peninsula where E-M81 is define toy the more dominant variety.

Angela
03-09-13, 22:00
Sicily also has berberid E-M81 that crossed directly from western north-Africa, whereas the vast majority of E3b in Italy and the Balkans has the E-V13 signature. It's on the Iberian peninsula where E-M81 is define toy the more dominant variety.

I agree. What's surprising is how little of that Berberid E-M81 Sicily actually has...a rough average of all the studies is about 2% isn't it? Even if some of the other clades of E-M78 could be connected directly to North Africa instead of both the North African and Sicilian clades stemming from the same Levantine Neolithic, the numbers are still lower than I expected.

adamo
03-09-13, 22:58
Most E3b in south-central/eastern Europe is E-V13. The Iberian peninsula has much more E-M81.

ESpraguer
05-11-16, 03:36
Yes, the capital, but cities are funny. In other parts of Bulgaria E-V13 is 30%+.

ESpraguer
05-11-16, 03:45
I broke down a lot of these numbers but the auto-save betrayed me & I don't feel like doing it again. So I'll give you the highlights:


E-V13 actually increases in Italy from south to north. Yeah, you read that correctly. It constitutes 9% of all haplotypes in the north & only 7% in the south (according to this limited data). It increases both relative to E1b1b as a whole & in absolute numbers. It is also heavily concentrated in the east.

*It is worth noting that it appears to drop slightly in central Italy & its distribution is on the whole relatively uniform. However, virtually all of the data from central Italy in this set is from west-central or inland. In the east-central Italy, there are much higher E1b1b numbers, & I suspect nearly all of it is E-V13.


This pattern does not hold for E-M123, which increases as you head south. It is 1.5% in the north & doubles to nearly 3% in the south.



So-called non-Euro & non-Phoenician haplos (E-M81, E-V12, E-V22, E-V65) go from 1.5% in the north to 3% in central, to 3.5-4% in the south. Again, they don't track E-V13. Perusing the data casually, they also don't appear to track E-V13 from east to west. Observe Apulia for example. As E-V13 goes up, these other haplos actually appear to decrease both north to south & east to west. So, preliminarily speaking, there may be some relationship between E-M123 & *some* of these other E haplos. Indeed, they may be Phoenician or from the Levant.



I'm not sure this is what you'd expect to see if they all arrived together in Italy. I think you'd expect them to be correlated with one another. I haven't analyzed them carefully but as stated, a crude analysis tells me the other haplos correlate somewhat with one another (E-M81 probably incidentally because I think it's recent (Moorish invasion)).
What I'd really like to see is data on the frequency of these haplos in Greek dominated regions & the Balkans. The Greeks supposedly settled much of Sicily & yet there is very little E-V13 there. That is just weird. Molise, Abruzzo, Apulia that's where the E-V13 is, namely in the East. Indeed, E-V13 seems to be inversely correlated with Greek settlement. There is very little of it in the West (even in the South, in Sicily, etc!!!). That is very unexpected. This could be because gradual migration from Illyria/Balkans or some mesolithic/early neolithic settlement connection (same founding population) made a greater contribution to the modern regional gene-pool in Italy than more recent, minor Greek contribution in the west of the Italian peninsula. So, at least from what I'm seeing, I don't think there's any settlement relationship or correlation or any other type of link at all between E-V13 & the other E's in Italy. That is pretty surprising I'd say.

ESpraguer
05-11-16, 07:16
Correct. Except Northern & Eastern Bulgaria are over 20% & some regions of Bulgaria are 30+%.

Northener
05-11-16, 10:18
For E-V22 there is this survey: http://e-v22.net/origin/
and
http://e-v22.net/descendants/
Please feel free to comment!

Shetop
05-11-16, 11:55
I'm not sure this is what you'd expect to see if they all arrived together in Italy.

Of course they did not arrive together. Some of the mentioned E clades separated from the other 25000 years ago.
E-123 is the only clade for which it makes sense it came from Asia Minor. Contrary to that there are arguments which support European origin of E-V13.

Angela
05-11-16, 17:19
@ESpraguer,

It's unclear to me if you have seen and taken into account the subsequent paper by this group, Sarno et al.

This is a link to the paper. Scroll to the end to get to Supplementary Information and click on table 2 among others. They break out not only the E-V13 but the other subclades of E1b1b. Yes, there's more E-V13 in Calabria and Apulia etc., than there is in Sicily, but it's a difference of about 2-3%, which is easily explained by the fact that Sicily experienced a large migration from northern Italy during the Middle Ages, which would have cut into the older y dna distribution signature. Even so, there's still quite a bit in Sicily, and western Sicily more than eastern Sicily, at least according to this study.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074#s5

Also, I don't know if you're aware that the TMRCA of the E-V13 in Italy is around 2300 years, which is coincidentally at the height of the Greek influence in Italy.

binx
05-11-16, 18:14
I'm not sure this is what you'd expect to see if they all arrived together in Italy. I think you'd expect them to be correlated with one another. I haven't analyzed them carefully but as stated, a crude analysis tells me the other haplos correlate somewhat with one another (E-M81 probably incidentally because I think it's recent (Moorish invasion)). Of course they didn't all arrived together in Italy, and they aren't correlated with one another. Why are you focusing only about Italy? Those E1b1b are spread also in other Central and Southern European countries. And of course not the all the E-M81 are due to Moorish invasion, E-M81 has been found also in France.
In Europe, E-M81 is widespread but rare, in the Iberian Peninsula Spain shows an average frequency of 4.3% (49/1140) in the Iberian Peninsula with frequencies reaching 9% in Galicia, 10% in Western Andalusia and Northwest Castile. However this study includes 153 individuals from Majorca, Minorca and Ibiza islands as well as 24 individuals from Gascony which are not in the Iberian Peninsula. Without these 177 individuals, average for Iberian Peninsula is 4.9% (47/963),[35] it is found at comparable levels to E-M78, with an average frequency of around 5%, and in some regions it is more common. Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in Extremadura and southern Portugal, 4% to 9% in Galicia, 14% in western Andalusia and 10% in northwest Castile and 9% to 17% in Cantabria.[22][36][37][38][39] The highest frequencies of this clade found so far in Europe were observed in the Valles Pasiegos from Cantabria, ranging from 18% (8/45)[39] to 41% (23/56).[2] An average frequency of 8.28% (54/652) has also been reported in the Spanish Canary Islands with frequencies over 10% in the three largest islands of Tenerife (10.68%), Gran Canaria (11.54%) and Fuerteventura (13.33%).[40] E-M81 is also found in France,[2] 2.70% (15/555) overall with frequencies surpassing 5% in Auvergne (5/89) and Île-de-France (5/91),[41][42] in Sicily (approximately 2% overall, but up to 5% in Piazza Armerina),[43] and in very much lower frequency near Lucera (1.7%), in continental Italy,[38] possibly due to ancient migrations during the Islamic, Roman, and Carthaginian empires. In a 2014 study by Stefania Sarno et al. with 326 samples from Cosenza, Matera, Lecce and 5 Siclian provinces, E-M81 shows an average frequency of 1.5%, but the typical Maghrebin core haplotype 13-14-30-24-9-11-13 has been found in only two out of the five E-M81 individuals. These results, along with the negligible contribution from North-African populations revealed by the admixture-like plot analysis, suggest only a marginal impact of trans-Mediterranean gene flows on the current SSI genetic pool

binx
05-11-16, 18:28
For E-V22 there is this survey: http://e-v22.net/origin/ and http://e-v22.net/descendants/ Please feel free to comment! How much is accurate?

ESpraguer
05-11-16, 19:21
The data is largely consistent with my points. Although it's very, very limited & doesn't have a lot of eastern data, Lecce V-13 is almost double that of Sicily in the west (15% in Lecce). The average E-V13 in Sicily is roughly 8%, which was sort of my point (& interestingly, lower than what you find in the north of Italy. So if you're arguing the north of Italy reduced the percentage of E-V13, that doesn't really add up.). E on the whole does not go up from west to east, but E-V13 does. Same is true south to north. Western Italy is marked by a significantly larger proportion of other E types (probably indicating movement of peoples from North Africa & the Levant), a signature which is smaller in the east & the north.


Plus or minus 800 years. LOL. Also, I really don't buy it. If E-V13 has been in southern Europe 7-8000 years (It has. Spanish cave.), my guess is that it has been in Italy (particularly eastern Italy adjacent to Balkans) roughly the same amount of time. The TMRCA estimates are notoriously inaccurate. However, it is possible that the E-V13 in this study (from Sicily) is somewhat younger than that found in the east of Italy & is connected to Greek colonization in antiquity. But anyone who thinks all that V-13 in the east of Italy is from 2000 yrs ago or so, rather than from Cardium Pottery & other pre-historic migrations, I think is arguing from a pretty tenuous position. I think that is extremely unlikely. But as stated, some of the V13 settlement in the west of Italy could be more recent. However, I suspect much of the E-V13 in the east of Italy goes back 5000 yrs or more.

Angela
06-11-16, 01:12
The data is largely consistent with my points. Although it's very, very limited & doesn't have a lot of eastern data, Lecce V-13 is almost double that of Sicily in the west (15% in Lecce). The average E-V13 in Sicily is roughly 8%, which was sort of my point (& interestingly, lower than what you find in the north of Italy. So if you're arguing the north of Italy reduced the percentage of E-V13, that doesn't really add up.). E on the whole does not go up from west to east, but E-V13 does. Same is true south to north. Western Italy is marked by a significantly larger proportion of other E types (probably indicating movement of peoples from North Africa & the Levant), a signature which is smaller in the east & the north.


Plus or minus 800 years. LOL. Also, I really don't buy it. If E-V13 has been in southern Europe 7-8000 years (It has. Spanish cave.), my guess is that it has been in Italy (particularly eastern Italy adjacent to Balkans) roughly the same amount of time. The TMRCA estimates are notoriously inaccurate. However, it is possible that the E-V13 in this study (from Sicily) is somewhat younger than that found in the east of Italy & is connected to Greek colonization in antiquity. But anyone who thinks all that V-13 in the east of Italy is from 2000 yrs ago or so, rather than from Cardium Pottery & other pre-historic migrations, I think is arguing from a pretty tenuous position. I think that is extremely unlikely. But as stated, some of the V13 settlement in the west of Italy could be more recent. However, I suspect much of the E-V13 in the east of Italy goes back 5000 yrs or more.

Did you even look at the Sarno et al tables? They're not at all consistent with your points. To save your argument you're now comparing one town in Puglia to all of western Sicily. That's not at all a fair comparison. If you actually look at the table, Lecce, one town in Puglia in mainland Italy, has 15% E-V13, but Trapani, one town in far northwest Sicily has 14.71% or approximately 15%.

Plus, as I said, we're talking about an average of 11% versus an average of 14%. I don't see the big deal here. Plus, as I said, that difference is easily explained by later demographic movements into both Sicily and southern Italy. I don't at all understand your statement that northern Italian migration into Sicily could not have diluted E-V13. First of all, you are not defining Northern Italy correctly. Second of all, the northern Italian migration into Sicily was primarily from Lombardia, hence why it's called the Lombard migration, and the dialects some of the towns founded by them still speak are called the Lombard Sicilian dialects. Where do you find more E-V13 in Lombardia or the Veneto than in southern Italy? I suggest you take a look at Table S2 in Boattini et al, and compute how much E-V13 they show in Lombardia.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065441/#s6

Also, I don't know if you're aware of it, but there are documented movements of Greek speakers into southern Puglia in the Middle Ages. That's one of the reasons it's still the largest Griko speaking area in Italy. We're talking about further waves into that area, but it doesn't negate that there were first millennium BC movements into all of Magna Graecia. I also don't know where you find all these large percentages of "other" "E" in western Italy. Again, please check the data tables. The data doesn't show that at all.
8180

Sarno at all concentrating on southern Italy and Sicily:
8181

Not that the late first millennium BC movement of Greek speakers into Italy is the only such movement. I think we'll find that not only trade but people flowed into Italy, along the Adriatic coast, in particular, during the Mycenaean era.

Actually, I don't understand what larger point you're trying to make here. If it's about E-V13 in general, then there are other countries with much more of it that have to be understood. If it's about the issue of Greek migration into Italy, E-V13 is not the only lineage that has to be considered.

As for dating the E-V13 migrations to Europe, it's true that we've found the precursors in Neolithic samples. We also know, however, that the expansion is dated to the Bronze Age. I think a strong argument could be made that most E-V13 is going to descend from that period of expansion. The expansion is also centered in the Balkans, so any E-V13 in Italy is likely to have an ultimate Balkan origin. I'd also point out that +or- 800 years from 300 BC is not going to take you back to the Neolithic. However, until E-V13 gets the same kind of attention that some R1b clades received, a lot of this is just speculation.

ESpraguer
06-11-16, 06:16
1) The Sarno tables only have limited data from the east. Virtually all of the data analyzed in the study is from Sicily. That's part of what makes the study so suspect (especially given what you're trying to claim). E-V13 settlement in Sicily may have been from Greek era (I've already conceded this), although I certainly wouldn't conclude this based upon 1 study & 1 TMRCA estimate, given how notoriously unreliable they are. I also wouldn't take this limited data to be representative of all of Italy or all E-V13 on the peninsula. Settlement after all may have begun long before this in the east or in the north. Moreover, despite the limited data from Sarno regarding eastern Italy, we have other data from other studies regarding the east of Italy. 25% in Venice. 20% in Rimini, etc. Not only that, but the data we have from the east & from the north suggests E there is dominated by E-V13 in ways that the central-west & southwest are not. This is actually intuitive given the predominance of E-V13 in the Balkans & Greece. Breaking down the data from Boattini et al, 2013, you'll see my claims vindicated. I'm going beyond what Maciamo provided now:
E-V13 is 9-12% of all haplos in north. It is only 7% in Sicily. That is averaging the data, not just cherry picking particular cities (which I didn't do in the first place). It's true that I chose Lecce to make my point, but I could have chosen just about any eastern city. You couldn't have chosen any Sicilian city. Only a few areas of Sicily possess E-V13 at that level.
From the Boattini study I'll also go along the east of the peninsula, & just average a few of the cities for you. I'm going to be lazy & just pick randomly from the east & tally up the numbers.
Treviso: 10% E-V13, 2.5% E non-E-V13
Campobasso (somewhat inland) - 10%, 3.33% E non-E-V13
Vicenze- 14% E-V13 5.5% E non-E-V13
L'aquila (inland, but eastish) - 10%, all E-V13
Now Lecce: 15% E-V13, 2.5% E, non E-V13
Compare this to say Benevento where there is even more e1b1b (16-17%), but 60% of it is non-E-V13.
You'll notice that along the east E-V13 is basically 10% at minimum. Moreover, only Lecce is really on the coast. Vicenze is only close to the coast. Other studies have found e1b1b at 20% in Rimini (probably nearly all V13) & up to 25% in Venice (again presumably nearly all E-V13, since in the east & north almost all e1b1b is E-V13, which was to be demonstrated). These are actual coastal cities, like Lecce. As you head inland, E drops slightly & continues to drop as you head west.
*Also, you'll see the patterns I mentioned in the Boattini data. Sardinia, Sicily, Catanzaro all 50%+ non E-V13. In the North & East, e1b1b is heavily V13, indeed 75% plus, whereas in the southwest & west e1b1b becomes less & less dominated by V13 (50% and under).
2) Again, I'm going to reiterate that I don't believe for 1 second that E-V13 arrived in Italy roughly 2000 years ago. I believe E-V13 has been in Italy much, much longer than that. A few Sicilian samples are not going to change my mind on that. There is a good chance that some of the samples from Sicily are from the Greek era, skewing or worse, poisoning the estimate, but even if it's fairly accurate, I do not think the Sicilian data exhausts E-V13 or its settlement in the Italian peninsula. I suspect Cardium Pottery brought significant quantities of E-V13 to Italy 7000 yrs ago or prior. If one was really interested in dating E-V13 in Italy one would head to the east & the north, where the E-V13 is & where Greek settlements were more scarce. We have 7000 yr old E-V13 in southern Spain & 7000 yr old E-V13 from Hungary. E-V13 has lingered in southern & central Europe & along the coast of the Mediterranean for a long, long time. The notion that it is 10,000 yrs old or so in Greece, the Balkans & Bulgaria but only arrived in eastern Italy 2000 yrs ago I find to be a bit fantastical.

Angela
06-11-16, 16:20
I'm not trying to claim anything. I don't care when E-V13 came to Italy. You're the one who for some unknown reason is rather heatedly insisting that most of it must have come other than with known settlement from Greek city states at approximately the TMRCA date for the various E-V13 clades in Italy.

What I'm doing is pointing out what I consider to be some logical fallacies in your argument, the lack of data to support key parts of your argument, and the mis-statements of fact about Italian history. What I realize but you apparently do not is that we're no longer in 2008. We've learned since then that modern distributions of yDna clades can be very misleading. We've also learned that you have to drill down further and further into subclades because they can be separated by a thousand years and very different migrations.

In terms of ancient dna we have a possible E-V13 in the epi-Cardial, and E-M78 in mid-to-late Sopot and Lengyel cultures. That's it. From that you choose to believe, apparently, that most of the actual, modern E-V13 in Italy must have come from the early Neolithic. In my opinion, that's an unwarranted conclusion.
http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/europeanneolithicdna.shtml

Furthermore, whether you wish to believe it or not, one of the things we can indeed learn from modern yDna is when a certain lineage experienced its expansion. In the case of E-V13 that was the Bronze Age. I think that's a pretty good indication that whenever and with whomever E-V13 arrived in Italy, a good chunk of it, perhaps the majority, arrived during or after the Bronze Age.

Bicicleur thinks that E-V13 may have been picked up by the Indo-Europeans somewhere in central-eastern Europe, in which case it's conceivable some of it entered Italy from the north, over the Alps, or through the corridor in the east through which the Lombards later arrived. I think it's more likely, given the epicenter of E-V13 in the Balkans, that the flow was mainly from there. Only time will tell.

At any rate, given the known Greek settlements all over southern Italy but also in other areas of Italy and nearby in Provence during the first millennium BC, to take the position that this is somehow a minor to insignificant source of E-V13 in Italy is not only counter-intuitive but rather contrary to logic.

In the following map the smaller Adriatic trading centers are not shown, or the small settlement at Genova, but still you get an idea of how much settlement actually took place.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/Griechischen_und_ph%C3%B6nizischen_Kolonien.jpg

This is another good graphic:
http://www.ancient.eu/uploads/images/display-68.jpg

Even the grape varieties show the same thing:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Migration_of_Greek_grape_varieties_to_Italy.jpg

Autosomal analysis is also pretty informative. I'm still impressed by how much Cavalli-Sforza got right. This is PC4 of his autosomal map of Europe.
http://www.geocities.ws/racial_reality/sicily/pc4.jpg

I think the distribution in Italy might also owe something to the colonization program of the Romans. Neapolis was a large Greek area, and incorporated by Rome relatively early, so its men went into the legions. As time passed, Rome settled veterans all over Italy, scrambling the yDna distribution to some extent, although not, in my opinion, enough to very much affect the very old substructure. The separation of southern Italy from central, and even more from northern Italy took place after the Roman era.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Romancoloniae.jpg/500px-Romancoloniae.jpg

As to the jumble of statistics in your post, I'm sorry, but I don't pay attention to stats that don't contain a link to the appropriate paper. Without that information, which would tell me if its actually E-V13, the number of samples, the methodology etc. I can't evaluate the data. One of the reasons why I do pay attention to the Boattini and Sarno papers, for example, is that they are a random sample drawn only from known regional surnames. In a country like Italy where there has been a very large migration from south to north starting really at the end of the 19th century, four grandparents born in the area is not enough to guarantee these are really "native" samples.

I think it is pretty clear that some, perhaps a large chunk of the E-V13 in Italy is indeed part of the Greek expansion of the first millennium BC, but I think it was supplemented in the southeastern portions of the mainland and perhaps in central Italy during the Middle Ages given known migrations, and a portion may stretch back to the Mycenaean Era given known trade and cultural exchange patterns. Some of it may indeed even go back to the Neolithic, but given the expansion dates I don't think that's the case for most of it.

At any rate, I'm not at all married to these speculations. It's just what it looks like to me now given what I know of the sub-clade and the history. When we have more ancient dna and more subclade resolution this may all change. I have no stake in any one outcome so whatever the data shows, it shows. What I'm not interested in is unfounded speculation, bereft of data, because of what is increasingly looking like some sort of agenda.

Sile
06-11-16, 18:49
1) The Sarno tables only have limited data from the east. Virtually all of the data analyzed in the study is from Sicily. That's part of what makes the study so suspect (especially given what you're trying to claim). E-V13 settlement in Sicily may have been from Greek era (I've already conceded this), although I certainly wouldn't conclude this based upon 1 study & 1 TMRCA estimate, given how notoriously unreliable they are. I also wouldn't take this limited data to be representative of all of Italy or all E-V13 on the peninsula. Settlement after all may have begun long before this in the east or in the north. Moreover, despite the limited data from Sarno regarding eastern Italy, we have other data from other studies regarding the east of Italy. 25% in Venice. 20% in Rimini, etc. Not only that, but the data we have from the east & from the north suggests E there is dominated by E-V13 in ways that the central-west & southwest are not. This is actually intuitive given the predominance of E-V13 in the Balkans & Greece. Breaking down the data from Boattini et al, 2013, you'll see my claims vindicated. I'm going beyond what Maciamo provided now:
E-V13 is 9-12% of all haplos in north. It is only 7% in Sicily. That is averaging the data, not just cherry picking particular cities (which I didn't do in the first place). It's true that I chose Lecce to make my point, but I could have chosen just about any eastern city. You couldn't have chosen any Sicilian city. Only a few areas of Sicily possess E-V13 at that level.
From the Boattini study I'll also go along the east of the peninsula, & just average a few of the cities for you. I'm going to be lazy & just pick randomly from the east & tally up the numbers.
Treviso: 10% E-V13, 2.5% E non-E-V13
Campobasso (somewhat inland) - 10%, 3.33% E non-E-V13
Vicenze- 14% E-V13 5.5% E non-E-V13
L'aquila (inland, but eastish) - 10%, all E-V13
Now Lecce: 15% E-V13, 2.5% E, non E-V13
Compare this to say Benevento where there is even more e1b1b (16-17%), but 60% of it is non-E-V13.
You'll notice that along the east E-V13 is basically 10% at minimum. Moreover, only Lecce is really on the coast. Vicenze is only close to the coast. Other studies have found e1b1b at 20% in Rimini (probably nearly all V13) & up to 25% in Venice (again presumably nearly all E-V13, since in the east & north almost all e1b1b is E-V13, which was to be demonstrated). These are actual coastal cities, like Lecce. As you head inland, E drops slightly & continues to drop as you head west.
*Also, you'll see the patterns I mentioned in the Boattini data. Sardinia, Sicily, Catanzaro all 50%+ non E-V13. In the North & East, e1b1b is heavily V13, indeed 75% plus, whereas in the southwest & west e1b1b becomes less & less dominated by V13 (50% and under).
2) Again, I'm going to reiterate that I don't believe for 1 second that E-V13 arrived in Italy roughly 2000 years ago. I believe E-V13 has been in Italy much, much longer than that. A few Sicilian samples are not going to change my mind on that. There is a good chance that some of the samples from Sicily are from the Greek era, skewing or worse, poisoning the estimate, but even if it's fairly accurate, I do not think the Sicilian data exhausts E-V13 or its settlement in the Italian peninsula. I suspect Cardium Pottery brought significant quantities of E-V13 to Italy 7000 yrs ago or prior. If one was really interested in dating E-V13 in Italy one would head to the east & the north, where the E-V13 is & where Greek settlements were more scarce. We have 7000 yr old E-V13 in southern Spain & 7000 yr old E-V13 from Hungary. E-V13 has lingered in southern & central Europe & along the coast of the Mediterranean for a long, long time. The notion that it is 10,000 yrs old or so in Greece, the Balkans & Bulgaria but only arrived in eastern Italy 2000 yrs ago I find to be a bit fantastical.

In Ftdna North-Italy project , 18 of 23 E people are ....E-M35/L117

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/northitaly?iframe=yresults

Other papers have roughly the same percentage for north-italy

ESpraguer
06-11-16, 20:33
Yeah, exactly. That L117 is all V-13. Those numbers comport perfectly with the other data. 75%+ of N Italian E is E-V13.

ESpraguer
06-11-16, 21:00
1) Don't be an unethical debater. There's no "jumble of statistics" anywhere. The statistics I've provided are very clear. I've also broken them down so they're easy to grasp. They're also right there in the Boattini study, which is publicly available. So they're very easy to find & analyze if you're at all interested in the truth. Because I'm a newb to Eupedia, it won't let me post links, but if you simply google "Boattini et al in Italy" the very first result will take you there.
2) Greek settlements do not track V13 in Italy. At all. Where Greek settlements were, V13 numbers are substantially lower. There are few Greek settlements in the east & the north, according to your own map, but E-V13 is higher there than in the south & southwest.
3) I did not say Greek genetic contributions to Italy were small. What I said was that it was almost certainly smaller than other V13 contributions from other migrations, which likely predate Greek settlement (perhaps Illyrian, an Alpine entry or Cardium Pottery era). I also said that analyzing Sicilian V-13 might not be the best way to get a grip on V13 in Italy, its origin & the timeframe of that origin. It is 1 region, & it is not where E-V13 reaches its height. If anything, all that Greek settlement makes the Sicilian data all the more unrepresentative of V13 in Italy. V13 may very well have arrived in the west of the peninsula in large numbers substantially later than it arrived elsewhere. This is especially true for an extreme western island like Sicily. Notice how insubstantial V13 is in Sardinia.
4) Yes, that's what those estimates indicate, that E-V13 arrived in the late, late Bronze Age or after the Bronze Age. I've already stated that I don't believe that. I suspect E-V13 arrived in Italy (North & East especially) in the early Bronze Age or prior. A Greek origin for E-V13 in Italy generally is simply not at all supported by the evidence.

DuPidh
06-11-16, 21:16
1) Don't be an unethical debater. There's no "jumble of statistics" anywhere. The statistics I've provided are very clear. I've also broken them down so they're easy to grasp. They're also right there in the Boattini study, which is publicly available. So they're very easy to find & analyze if you're at all interested in the truth. Because I'm a newb to Eupedia, it won't let me post links, but if you simply google "Boattini et al in Italy" the very first result will take you there.
2) Greek settlements do not track V13 in Italy. At all. Where Greek settlements were, V13 numbers are substantially lower. There are few Greek settlements in the east & the north, according to your own map, but E-V13 is higher there than in the south & southwest.
3) I did not say Greek genetic contributions to Italy were small. What I said was that it was almost certainly smaller than other V13 contributions from other migrations, which likely predate Greek settlement (perhaps Illyrian, an Alpine entry or Cardium Pottery era). I also said that analyzing Sicilian V-13 might not be the best way to get a grip on V13 in Italy, its origin & the timeframe of that origin. It is 1 region, & it is not where E-V13 reaches its height. If anything, all that Greek settlement makes the Sicilian data all the more unrepresentative of V13 in Italy. V13 may very well have arrived in the west of the peninsula in large numbers substantially later than it arrived elsewhere. This is especially true for an extreme western island like Sicily. Notice how insubstantial V13 is in Sardinia.
4) Yes, that's what those estimates indicate, that E-V13 arrived in the late, late Bronze Age or after the Bronze Age. I've already stated that I don't believe that. I suspect E-V13 arrived in Italy (North & East especially) in the early Bronze Age or prior. A Greek origin for E-V13 in Italy generally is simply not at all supported by the evidence.


Greek DNA contribution to Italian gene pool is significant in Rome. Romans imported all Greek craftsman and settled them in Italy to build Rome. They also imported all they could find, craftsman from Levant and Egypt. The imports were the gifted individuals and all their immediate families. The names of famous architects who build some Roman marvels were either Greeks or Middle eastern people. Also artists of all kinds were imported, shipbuilders etc.. Over so many years their numbers have swelled to significant numbers

Angela
06-11-16, 23:01
Greek DNA contribution to Italian gene pool is significant in Rome. Romans imported all Greek craftsman and settled them in Italy to build Rome. They also imported all they could find, craftsman from Levant and Egypt. The imports were the gifted individuals and all their immediate families. The names of famous architects who build some Roman marvels were either Greeks or Middle eastern people. Also artists of all kinds were imported, shipbuilders etc.. Over so many years their numbers have swelled to significant numbers

Please provide the studies which prove that all the craftsmen and architects who built Rome were "native" Greeks, and furthermore, the analysts who have computed the numbers of their descendants.

I'm not disputing, by the way, that the Romans greatly valued educated Greek slaves. However, on this site we don't post statements without providing proof for them.

@ESprague,
You insult moderators here and there are consequences. I guess you didn't know that.

It is highly improbable, and something I haven't seen proposed by any serious analyst that Magna Graecia, the site of so much Greek settlement in the first millennium BC, and part of a genetic cluster with Greece recognized as long ago as in Cavalli-Sforza's seminal work but also by some modern genetic testing companies would have no or minimal E-V13 from those migrations. The only data you present for your proposition is sentence after sentence of stats for E-V13 in the rest of Italy, especially central Italy. Who has denied that there is E-V13 in other parts of Italy? Also, I already posted the actual data tables, so it was totally unnecessary.

The point is that Boattini et al found five separate clusters of E-V13 in Italy. Before we can come to any hard and fast conclusions about the source and timing of E-V13 in Italy, those clusters have to be further studied and snp tests provided for them. Then the samples that are banked have to be re-tested for those subclades and the precise TMRCA for each cluster has to be computed as closely as possible. Comparisons could then be made with samples from Greece, Albania, etc., but even then great care would have to be exercised. Any attempt to come to some scientific conclusions would, in my opinion, also have to include ancient dna. That would help with dating and give us the precise subclades involved with each migration.

Absent this kind of rigorous data collection and analysis it's impossible to safely draw the kinds of conclusions you are drawing as to the precise timing and direction of all the E-V13 in Italy.

You're free to believe whatever you wish, of course, but you have presented no evidence, in my opinion, to support your speculation that virtually all the E-V13 in southern Italy/Sicily, and the rest of Italy for that matter has been there since the Neolithic. The very fact that there are five clusters, not one, is against that proposition.

So, unless you have something new to add to the discussion, I don't see much point in continuing.

ESpraguer
07-11-16, 00:22
1) Again, you're failing to do even the most rudimentary analysis of the stats. E-V13 does not appear to be correlated at all with Greek settlement. E-V13 is lower in Sicily than it is in the east & north of Italy. That you deny this is just bizarre. The stats are right there for you to see. They're crystal clear.
2) Again, you keep repeating arguments I'm not making. I've stated like 6 times that much of the E-V13 in Sicily may be from the Greek period. I doubt that all of it is but much of it may be. This doesn't mean that the E-V13 elsewhere in Italy is from this period. It is after all quite strange that E-V13 is at its highest in Italian regions where Greek settlements were few or non-existent. I'd say that suggests pretty strongly much of E-V13 on the peninsula is not from the Greek period.
3) There has already been pretty rigorous data collection. I'm just breaking the data down in a very straight-forward way. You just don't like what the data says, because it contradicts your feelings & preconceived notions.
4) I did not insult you. All I did was urge you not to debate unethically. Your claim that what I wrote constituted a "jumble of statistics" is not a good faith argument. It is a condescending, intellectually lazy, pejorative argument directed at my collection of data & arguably at me & my intellect as well. Calling a short mathematical analysis a "jumble of statistics" is hardly arguing in good faith. All I did was urge you against unethical debate, & I believe the "jumble of statistics" argument was precisely that. That is not an insult, unless you think there was something in my exhortation. So you decided to penalize me as a bully would, because you like to throw your weight around by talking down to people when you're losing a debate, & when someone calls you out on it & stands up to you, instead of owning up, you throw your weight around further by slapping them with an infraction. You'd make a good tyrant.
5) I have provided strong evidence of my claims. You just don't like the claims, because the data conflicts with what you want to believe.
6) No, you should retire, you're losing. Cheers.

Angela
07-11-16, 01:38
You're now up to 8 infraction points. Cheers.

Angela
07-11-16, 04:08
Now, if anyone would like to discuss the issue in a sane and rational and objective manner I'd be happy to do so.

Absent ancient ydna from the areas in Italy under discussion for the Neolithic, Bronze and Iron Age, and from Greece and the Balkans for the same periods, and also absent much information about the five clusters of E-V13 in Italy, I have no idea what percentage of E-V13 is attributable to the Neolithic versus the Bronze and Iron Ages in different areas in Italy, although as I said I find it improbable, given that the expansion of E-V13 was in the Bronze Age and that Boattini et al give the main E-V13 cluster in SEI a very young TMRCA, and that we have well known migrations from Greece to Italy in the first millennium that most of it is Neolithic in origin. Anything is possible, of course, as ancient dna has a history of surprising.

This is the graphic of the clusters of E-V13 in Italy. Anyone have any insights? Oh, it's important to note that in the Boattini analysis, SEI for y DNA stands for southern and eastern Italy, and goes all the way up to the northeast.

8184

It's Cluster 3 of E-V13, the vast majority of which is located in SEI, which is dated to about 400 BC. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any dating for the other clusters.
http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/jeanlohizun/media/Boattinietal2013-Table2_zpsd332fb44.jpg.html

Oh, as to the deluge of percentages about E-V13 in different areas in Italy, this is the table from Boattini et al, which I already posted. The big furor was because area II, north east Italy, comes in at 11%. Southern Italy, including Campania, Puglia, Calabria etc. comes in at 10.6, obviously a huge difference, and Sicily, area 7 at 7.1, although there are hotspots as in Trapani which are close to 15%. That should make things a little clearer.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MWmAskEgse0/Uai37lE3ohI/AAAAAAAAI2I/JlgvVTbQcwE/s640/haplogroups_italy.png

This is the table from Sarno et al (same group). The percentages are a little higher. You can see the wild swings in percentages.
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bYlCUJZuWYg/Vl0fUOV2XlI/AAAAAAAADW4/nddZwg50GCU/s1600/Sarno2014tab1.JPG

Sile
07-11-16, 06:48
Yeah, exactly. That L117 is all V-13. Those numbers comport perfectly with the other data. 75%+ of N Italian E is E-V13.

L117 = M35 is a main branch and V13 is a subbranch way way down the tree.
L117 equivalent to M35, at the level just above M78, so V32 is downstream of L117.

Angela
08-11-16, 03:30
By the way, if anyone has a clue as to why the possibility that a lot of E-V13 came to southern Italy with the Greeks was such an emotional topic, so vehemently to be denied, and even more bizarrely why I would have been presumed to care one way or the other, could you enlighten me either here or by PM? Thanks.

I'm used to some strange events, but I found this really incomprehensible.

ESpraguer
24-11-16, 03:05
I wasn't ever emotional. You were emotional. Did I sanction you? Did I banish you from the site for 2 weeks? Who was emotional? LOL. I never even said much of the E-V13 in Sicily wasn't Greek. I simply said I doubted the data & estimates almost strictly limited to Sicily were generalizable or relevant to the E-V13 elsewhere in Italy. Until analyses are done on these other clusters & on E-V13 from elsewhere in Italy, it will be essentially speculative. However, given that we have what is likely E-V13 (E-M78) in Sopot & Lengyel & E-V13 in Spain from 7000 years ago, it just seems unlikely that Italy (a location between these two locations) didn't have significant quantities of E-V13 as well in the neolithic, given that Cardium Pottery Culture itself included much of Italy, especially eastern Italy, Liguria, etc. I simply meant to convey a deep skepticism that E-V13 in Italy has its origins in the middle or late Bronze Age. I think this extremely unlikely. But I have no doubt whatsoever that some of it arrived with Greek settlement. I know I can be aggressive, but I never meant to be rude.

ELIOV13
12-02-17, 23:48
here is the graph did a quick bit of distribution of E-V13 in Italy.
Makes it a little justice in regions with a strong colonization greca.Prima Sicily, then Lazio, Campania, Puglia etc ... Lombardy has recently suffered a strong migration from southern Italy and therefore has a given falsato.Bisogna add it to sud-Italia.Se consider themselves Italians in the world (Argentina, Brazil, etc.) this data would be more 'raddoppiati.L'Italia represents the nation with more' E-V13 mondo.Bisogna to better study all its subaplogruppi for understand the history and the immigration places.



8481

ESpraguer
29-03-17, 18:35
here is the graph did a quick bit of distribution of E-V13 in Italy.
Makes it a little justice in regions with a strong colonization greca.Prima Sicily, then Lazio, Campania, Puglia etc ... Lombardy has recently suffered a strong migration from southern Italy and therefore has a given falsato.Bisogna add it to sud-Italia.Se consider themselves Italians in the world (Argentina, Brazil, etc.) this data would be more 'raddoppiati.L'Italia represents the nation with more' E-V13 mondo.Bisogna to better study all its subaplogruppi for understand the history and the immigration places.






8481



No idea where this data is from. Sicily does not have a high % of E-V13. It has a high percentage of E1b1b, but only about 30-40% of it is E-V13. Thus the rub with your argument. This is a thread about the Boattini data. The graphs you've given are not based upon that data or they're the result of a total misunderstanding regarding it. This study has just under 150 samples in Sicily, all from different parts of the island. 10 of those 150 samples are E-V13. 10. That means a mere 6.7% of Sicilians are E-V13. That's about as low as any part of Italy. There is twice as much E-V13 as that in Venice & Liguria, close to 3x as much in Apulia. Campania? 8.5% E-V13. You're conflating E1b1b with E-V13. In the west of Italy a lot of the E1b1b is non-E-V13. Thus the confusion. Again, there is more E-V13 in the east & the north of the Italian peninsula. E1b1b in the aggregate is not equivalent to nor even correlated with E-V13, a particular subclade of E1b1b. And again, there is essentially no apparent correlation between Greek settlement and the concentration of E-V13 in Italy. There does appear to have been significant gene flow from the Balkans & Greece to eastern Italy, but I'm not at all convinced this is largely the result of any particular historic migrations. Moreover, Greek colonization or gradual Balkan/Greek migration to the east of the peninsula does not explain very well the hotspot in Liguria. This may be a vestige of the Cardium Pottery era.