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Maciamo
07-06-13, 16:59
I have calculated the provincial percentages of G2a in Italy based on the recent study by Boattini et al. (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441)

The new data significantly alters the known distribution of G2a across the peninsula. Extremely high frequencies (20-25%) were observed in Abruzzo, Molise, Basilicata and Calabria. The frequencies in northern Italy are also considerably higher than in past studies. On the other hand, the data for Sardinia is a bit lower.

The hotspots in central Calabria and around Matera match Achaean Greek colonies (from central Peloponnese).

The high concentration of G2a along the Apennines are probably a relic of Neolithic populations who sought refuge in the mountains after successive waves of invaders (Italics, Etruscans, Greeks) took the coastal and lowland areas. The same phenomenon can be observed a bit everywhere in Europe (Alps, Sardinia, Corsica, Thessaly, Caucasus).


North Italy

In Cuneo, south-west Piedmont, 3 out of 30 samples are G2a (10%),.

In Savona/Genova, central Liguria, 2 out of 50 samples are G2a (4%).

In Como, north-west Lombardy, 3 out of 41 samples are G2a (7.5%).

In Brescia, north-east Lombardy, 5 out of 39 samples are G2a (13%).

In Vicenza, central-west Veneto, 2 out of 40 samples are G2a (5%).

In Treviso, central-east Veneto, 3 out of 30 samples are G2a (10%).

In Bologna, central Emilia-Romagna, 3 out of 29 samples G2a (10.5%).


Central Italy

In La Spezia-Massa, north-west Tuscany, 2 out of 24 samples are G2a (8.5%).

In Pistoia, central-north Tuscany, 1 out of 13 samples are G2a (7.5%).

In Grosetto-Siena, southern Tuscany, 4 out of 86 samples are G2a (4.5%) + one G1 sample.

In Foligno, central-east Umbria, 6 out of 37 samples are G2a (16%) + one G1 sample.

In Macerata, central-east Marche, 4 out of 40 samples are G2a (10%).


South Italy

In L'Aquila, Abruzzo, 5 out of 23 samples are G2a (21.5%).

In Campobasso, Molise, 7 out of 29 samples are G2a (24%).

In Benevento, Campania, 4 out of 36 samples are G2a (11%) + one G2c sample.

In Matera, Basilicata, 6 samples out of 25 are G2a (24%) + one G1 sample.

In Lecce, Apulia, 3 out of 39 samples are G2a (7.5%).

In Cosenza/Catanzaro/Crotone, Calabria, 8 out of 38 samples were G2a (21%).

In Catania, eastern Sicily, 5 out of 62 samples are G2a (8%).

In Ragusa, southeast Sicily, 5 out of 44 samples are G2a (11.5%).

In Agrigento, southwest Sicily, 6 out of 42 samples are G2a (14.5%).

In Olbia/Tempio/Nuoro, north-east Sardinia, 5 out of 40 samples are G2a (12.5%).

In Oristano, central-west Sardinia, 6 out of 42 samples are G2a (14.5%).

Maciamo
07-06-13, 17:50
Here is the updated G2a map.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif

MMaximus
08-06-13, 19:44
Vincenza actually has 2 G2a-P15 samples and map looks awesome thank you

zanipolo
08-06-13, 20:47
Here is the updated G2a map.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif


looks like G went by sea to Italy and via romania to the alps. then again by sea is very unlikely, more accurate would be that the lighter shaded areas of G was replaced by other peoples over time

zanipolo
10-06-13, 00:56
Here is the updated G2a map.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif


curious
Are you doing a similar thing for R1a and T ...........and maybe the smallish Q and L :smile:

how yes no 3
26-06-13, 12:52
looks like G went by sea to Italy and via romania to the alps. then again by sea is very unlikely, more accurate would be that the lighter shaded areas of G was replaced by other peoples over time


yes, exactly...

Etruscans seems to had lacked G2a, which looks a bit strange considering a hotspot in Lydia - their place of origin, but that likely indicates that G2a spread to Lydia only after their departure...
same is with Veneti, who origin in Paphlagonia... this indicates again later spread of G2a to Asia minor perhaps as late as with Turks or maybe earlier with Galatians and Phrygians (note that Phrygians are thought to have been Bryges prior to moving to Phrygia from Balkan and note the hotspot in Bryges location in ancient Greece) ...
same is with Greek colonies...they show notable lack of G2a...


hotspot of G2a maps to Umbrians and Mesapic speakers and also to Sardinia but I believe spread on Sardinia is due to Umbrians and Alans while Sardinia was originally I2a place (island name fitting tribal name pattern for I2a)

Celts might have originally had significant G2a...which shows in Alps and north Italy...also regarding Bryges, Phrygians and Galatians

as for Spain it looks as clear match to Alani, who are known to have lived in Carthagena province and in west Lusitania... its also possible that part of west Lusitania Alans migrated to lands of Suebi when their state was destroyed by Goths... spread in north Africa can be Alani signature as well...

http://books.google.nl/books?id=cbfORLWv1HkC&lpg=PA5&ots=tYQkGo3aUV&dq=alani%20cartagena%20goths&hl=nl&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q=alani%20cartagena%20goths&f=false (http://books.google.nl/books?id=cbfORLWv1HkC&lpg=PA5&ots=tYQkGo3aUV&dq=alani%20cartagena%20goths&hl=nl&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q=alani%20cartagena%20goths&f=false)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/Iron_Age_Italy.svg/300px-Iron_Age_Italy.svg.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b5/Italy_400bC_en.svg/300px-Italy_400bC_en.svg.png

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/Alan_kingdom_hispania.png/800px-Alan_kingdom_hispania.png

adamo
26-06-13, 19:21
I beg to differ, G2a was in Europe LONG before the Etruscans arrived and the Etruscans may have brought a minor G2a substratum along with them as we'll.

how yes no 3
27-06-13, 09:52
I beg to differ, G2a was in Europe LONG before the Etruscans arrived and the Etruscans may have brought a minor G2a substratum along with them as we'll.

if this is comment to my post.... "Etruscans seems to had lacked G2a" = Etruscans seems to had no G2a
(lack = miss, not have)



I will now focus on Celtic connection


G2a might have arrived in Europe in 7th-8th century BC with Thraco-Cimmerians
Its the culture that origins in Coban culture (in area Osetia and Georgia) which is strong G2 area..

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Thraco-Cimmerian.png
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif

this doesnot look like G2a spread, but note that Cimmerians were pushed out from north of Black sea by Scythians....

Cimmerians have made conquest in Asia minor, conquered Phrygia and attacked Lydia where they managed to capture capital Sardis... could this be a G2a line extending from Caucasus to Lydia? not sure because I do not expect Cimmerians to have left so significant imprint...but its possible

Cimbri and Cymry are thought to origin from Cimmerians...

Cymry - indeed Wales has elevated G2a, while Cimbri are nation that has disappeared in wars and movements all over Europe


The term Thraco-Cimmerian (thrako-kimmerisch) was first introduced by I. Nestor in the 1930s. It reflects a "migrationist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-cultural_diffusion)" tendency in the archaeology of the first half of the 20th century to equate material archaeology with historical ethnicities. Nestor did intend to suggest that there was a historical migration of Cimmerians into Eastern Europe from the area of the former Srubna culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srubna_culture), perhaps triggered by the Scythian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians) expansion, at the beginning of the European Iron Age. This "migrationist" or "invasionist" view, assuming that the development of the mature Hallstatt culture (Hallstatt C) was triggered by a Cimmerian invasion, was the scholarly mainstream until the 1980s. In the 1980s and 1990s, more systematic studies of the artefacts revealed a more gradual development over the period covering the 9th to 7th centuries, so that today the "invasionist" scenario or is considered untenable, and the term "Thraco-Cimmerian" is used by convention and does not necessarily imply a direct connection with either the Thracians or the Cimmerians.
Archaeologically, Thraco-Cimmerian artifacts consist of grave goods (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grave_goods) and hoards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoards). The artifacts labelled Thraco-Cimmerian all belong to a category of upper class, luxury objects, like weapons, horse tacks and jewelry, and they are recovered only from a small percentage of graves of the period. They are metal (usually bronze) items, particularly parts of horse tacks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_tack), found in a late Urnfield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield) context, but without local Urnfield predecessors for their type. They appear rather to spread from the Koban culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koban_culture)of the Caucasus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus) and northern Georgia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country)), which together with the Srubna culture, blends into the 9th to 7th centuries pre-Scythian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian)Chernogorovka and Novocherkassk cultures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novocerkassk_culture). By the 7th century, Thraco-Cimmerian objects are spread further west over most of Eastern and Central Europe, locations of finds reaching to Denmark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark) and eastern Prussia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussia) in the north and to Lake Zürich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Z%C3%BCrich) in the west. Together with these bronze artifacts, earliest Iron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron) items appear, ushering in the European Iron Age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Iron_Age), corresponding to the Proto-Celtic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Celtic) expansion from the Hallstatt culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerian

I can imagine Cimmerians originating from Koban culture in Caucasus (Koban area /Caucasus is G2a dominant area) and spreading north of Black sea...than being pushed by Scythians...part goes over Caucasus and invade Asia minor, part spills into Central Europe using Danube as a main route... they reach Hallstatt area... they become core element in proto-Celtic development.... and from this core in Hallstatt area they spread on all sides....part goes to Denmark where they are known as Cimbri...part goes to Wales where they are known as Cymry... part invades Gaul where they are known as Kymris...... part goes to Italy... where they are called Umbrians.....giving rise to proto-italic languages that are deeply linked to celtic languages



on origin of Gauls

Following the climate deterioration in the late Nordic Bronze Age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Bronze_Age), Celtic Gaul was invaded by tribes (named Kymris by some French historians) later called Gauls originating in the Germano-Celtic border - the Rhine and the Danube (Hercynian forest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercynian_forest)) - during the 6th or 5th century BC. Gauls under Brennus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brennus_(4th_century))invaded Rome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Allia_(390_BC)) circa 390 BC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauls


Umbrians - could it be tribal name originating from same source as Cimbri?

we know that Celtic and italic languages are more linked with each other than with the rest of PIE languages...so it is possible that there is also some shared genetic legacy... could it be G2a?

in the end, Cimmerian = Gomerian is origin of name Germans and it was applied to modern Germans because Roman historians have interpreted word as "seed" and suspected that Germanic people are original Celts...

I would not say they were original Celts, but I believe that these people have contributed to proto-Celtic development...


note that assuming Cimmerians as proto-Celts /proto-Gauls is also logical explanation of Celtic Galatians in Asia minor...


one interesting question is whether G2a has played some role in transfer of PIE languages over Europe?

how yes no 3
27-06-13, 12:43
I will add explanation for two G2a hotspots in locations on Atlantic coasts - one in southwest France and once in Belgium..

soutwest France hotspot judging by location could be legacy of tribe Garumna - which looks as tribal name of same source as Germani /Cimmerian

the one in Belgium seems to match Ambiani... a tribal name clustering with Cimbri and Umbrians

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Map_Gallia_Tribes_Towns.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Map_Gallia_Tribes_Towns.png

how yes no 3
27-06-13, 13:20
something more about italic Umbri


Pliny the Elder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Elder) wrote concerning the folk-etymology of the name:
The Umbrian people are thought the oldest in Italy; they are believed to have been called Ombrii (here, "the people of the thunderstorm," after ὅμβρος, "thunderstorm") by the Greeks because they survived the deluge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(mythology)) (literally "the inundation of the lands by thunderstorms, imbribus). The Etruscans vanquished 300 Umbrian cities.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbrians#cite_note-2)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbrians

deluge might have been about Black sea deluge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis

and we know that haplogroup G2a is very concentrated on edges of Black sea... so it may be that G2a people were the ones who suffered the most from this deluge....

survival of deluge also make sense to compare with interpretations of Cimmerian/Gomerian link to Gomer the grandson of Noah


Gomer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gomer_(Genesis)), son of Japheth. Usually identified with the migratory Gimirru (Cimmerians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians)) of Assyrian inscriptions, attested from about 720 BC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_Noah


The name Germany and the other similar-sounding names above are all derived from the Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) Germania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germania), of the 3rd century BC, a word of uncertain origin. The name appears to be a Gaulish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaulish_language) term, and there is no evidence that it was ever used by the Germanic tribes themselves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Germany#Names_from_Germania

Latin germanus = "genuine"
"germen" (archaic form of germ) = "seed" or "offshoot"

Angela
01-07-13, 19:21
I have calculated the provincial percentages of G2a in Italy based on the recent study by Boattini et al. (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441)

The new data significantly alters the known distribution of G2a across the peninsula. Extremely high frequencies (20-25%) were observed in Abruzzo, Molise, Basilicata and Calabria. The frequencies in northern Italy are also considerably higher than in past studies. On the other hand, the data for Sardinia is a bit lower.

The hotspots in central Calabria and around Matera match Achaean Greek colonies (from central Peloponnese).

The high concentration of G2a along the Apennines are probably a relic of Neolithic populations who sought refuge in the mountains after successive waves of invaders (Italics, Etruscans, Greeks) took the coastal and lowland areas. The same phenomenon can be observed a bit everywhere in Europe (Alps, Sardinia, Corsica, Thessaly, Caucasus).


North Italy

In Cuneo, south-west Piedmont, 3 out of 30 samples are G2a (10%),.

In Savona/Genova, central Liguria, 2 out of 50 samples are G2a (4%).

In Como, north-west Lombardy, 3 out of 41 samples are G2a (7.5%).

In Brescia, north-east Lombardy, 5 out of 39 samples are G2a (13%).

In Vicenza, central-west Veneto, 2 out of 40 samples are G2a (5%).

In Treviso, central-east Veneto, 3 out of 30 samples are G2a (10%).

In Bologna, central Emilia-Romagna, 3 out of 29 samples G2a (10.5%).


Central Italy

In La Spezia-Massa, north-west Tuscany, 2 out of 24 samples are G2a (8.5%).

In Pistoia, central-north Tuscany, 1 out of 13 samples are G2a (7.5%).

In Grosetto-Siena, southern Tuscany, 4 out of 86 samples are G2a (4.5%) + one G1 sample.

In Foligno, central-east Umbria, 6 out of 37 samples are G2a (16%) + one G1 sample.

In Macerata, central-east Marche, 4 out of 40 samples are G2a (10%).


South Italy

In L'Aquila, Abruzzo, 5 out of 23 samples are G2a (21.5%).

In Campobasso, Molise, 7 out of 29 samples are G2a (24%).

In Benevento, Campania, 4 out of 36 samples are G2a (11%) + one G2c sample.

In Matera, Basilicata, 6 samples out of 25 are G2a (24%) + one G1 sample.

In Lecce, Apulia, 3 out of 39 samples are G2a (7.5%).

In Cosenza/Catanzaro/Crotone, Calabria, 8 out of 38 samples were G2a (21%).

In Catania, eastern Sicily, 5 out of 62 samples are G2a (8%).

In Ragusa, southeast Sicily, 5 out of 44 samples are G2a (11.5%).

In Agrigento, southwest Sicily, 6 out of 42 samples are G2a (14.5%).

In Olbia/Tempio/Nuoro, north-east Sardinia, 5 out of 40 samples are G2a (12.5%).

In Oristano, central-west Sardinia, 6 out of 42 samples are G2a (14.5%).


Here is the updated G2a map.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif

@Maciamo,
Thank you for all these updated maps based on Boattini et al

I do have one disagreement, however, in regards to your grouping of these results both in this thread and in all the others which concern the Boattini y dna results. La Spezia is a Ligurian city by any measure, and Massa and the Lunigiana and Garfagnana to the north, (which is where some portion at least of these tested people originate )while they have been administratively part of Tuscany from the time of the Medici, are not Tuscan in language, culture etc. Instead, their language and culture is the same mix of Ligurian and Emilian that is present in La Spezia.

In Italy, the linguistic line is very important and also has implications for changes in genetics. Since the days of Rome, the demarcation line for separating "Italy" proper from the north was a line that passed just around Massa on the west and the Rubicon on the East. That demarcation line has held pretty consistently in terms of linguistics. The linguistic line is called the Massa-Senigallia line (previously called the La-Spezia-Rimini line, but more careful linguistic analysis, in my opinion, puts the line south of Massa.)

Also, in terms of cultural and historical development, as I said, the area from La Spezia and surrounding coastal areas then north through the valleys and over the Apennines into Emilia have long standing ties. So much so that attempts were made to create an area called Lunezia that would have incorporated all these areas. That has come to nothing, but the Lunigiana is scheduled to be reincorporated with Liguria administratively.

In trying to make sense of the y dna (or mt dna) of Italy, it's important to know which groups have developed historically and pre-historically in concert. I think that the U-152 center of gravity, for example, does not extend into the heavily Etruscan areas like Tarquinia. At least that's how it looks to me now. In fact, in looking at this map, I think an argument could be made that there was an influx of differnt peoples from the east end of the Alps, through the valley of the Po and then down the west coast of Italy that diluted some of the G2a that might have been present there.

I will have to check, but I also don't know if your general R1b map shows the 71% R1b present in La Spezia.

As to the comments that are being made on this thread by other posters in terms of the presence or lack or it in the Etruscans, I would just point out that many of the most important Etruscan settlements were very close to Rome, and those ancient towns are in the darker G areas. For example, Tarquinia was the chief of the Etruscan cities and is in the darker shaded areas.

That's not to say that I think the Etruscans mainly carried G2a. I have no idea what they carried. I'll wait for some adna. I also have no idea if there was any mass movement from Anatolia or even a movement of elites to "Etruria" from Anatolia during the first milennium BC. The early mt dna studies are worthless in my opinion, because they were done when we didn't yet have the sub-classifications that we have now. Indeed, one of the original researchers who worked on the paper that proclaimed some of the ancient Etruscan mt dna to be recent arrivals from Anatolia has since stated that it could just as likely have arrived in the Neolithic. Again, I think we need to have further, more sophisticated typing and dating of the mtdna.

As for the G2a in general, it's obvious to me that it has been present in Italy since the Neolithic. After all, Otzi, who lived in the Italian Alps 3300 B.C. is G2a, and G2a has been found in Cardial remains in coastal Europe from far before that. That isn't to say that there haven't been repeated inflows of G2a later in history that are affiliated with other specific cultural groups.

What most interests me about the G2a in the Boattini paper is that some of it, the cluster shared with the Tyrol, is so very old, that to me, it raises the possibility at least, that some G2a was already in southern Europe during the Mesolithic era.

MOESAN
04-07-13, 22:07
Thanks for this sensible post, Angela

for Y-G? it is a light HG interm of total percentages in W-Europe, but it is very variated and surely arrived in Occident various places at different times with very different cultures, sometimes in dominant position ( the first ones and maybe the last ones) sometimes in inferior condition. I have no absolute religion for now, I rather think the N Alps G2 are for a big part the Cardial male and coastal bearers passed through diverses passes and rivers (the Rhone by instance) from sea - around 6000 BC they would be arrived in Corsica and surroundings: culturally 'neolithic' but as old as the neolitic people in Eastern Europe so pioneers in a lasting Mesolithic in W-Europe - 'neolithic' is a confusing notion sometimes according to the criteria: chronology, way of life and technics: and very often in prehistory we see geographically and chronologically close cultures with very different ways of life spite some contacts - history is not linear at the detailed scale -

zanipolo
06-07-13, 21:34
G-L497
Spatial frequency distribution of the median HT cluster specific for haplogroup G-L497 in Europe. The frequency data were obtained by a search in the YHRD (release 41) and comprise 260 samples belonging to the median HT cluster found in 34,386 samples from 173 European population samples (sample size > 50). The sample locations are indicated by “+”.

http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/7560/um.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/547/um.gif/)

Clearly G2a3 hg did not come by boat to north Italy

zanipolo
10-07-13, 08:19
G-L497
Spatial frequency distribution of the median HT cluster specific for haplogroup G-L497 in Europe. The frequency data were obtained by a search in the YHRD (release 41) and comprise 260 samples belonging to the median HT cluster found in 34,386 samples from 173 European population samples (sample size > 50). The sample locations are indicated by “+”.

http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/7560/um.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/547/um.gif/)

Clearly G2a3 hg did not come by boat to north Italy

did they travel with the I2a "cimmeranians' ?

how yes no 3
20-07-13, 21:52
did they travel with the I2a "cimmeranians' ?

I think now that it may have been other way around....
that Cimmerians were G2a people and I2a has travelled with them in scope of Thraco-Cimmerian movement...

note that archeological DNA from bronze age Thrace is I2a1...
also note that I2a haplogroup tribal name is reflected in Sardinia, which is the part with most I2a1 in Italy...

in addition, in Caucasus, Cimmeri and Serbi are captured by Pliny as separate by neighbouring tribes...


After passing Cimmerium, the coast1 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0137:book=6:chapter= 7&highlight=serbi#note1) is inhabited by the Mæotici, the Vali, the Serbi,2 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0137:book=6:chapter= 7&highlight=serbi#note2) the Arrechi, the Zingi, and the Psessi. We then come to the river Tanais,3 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0137:book=6:chapter= 7&highlight=serbi#note3) which discharges itself into the sea by two mouths, and the banks of which are inhabited by the Sarmatæ, the descendants of the Medi, it is said, a people divided into numerous tribes.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0137:book=6:chapter= 7&highlight=serbi

in fact the text above shows also that ancient Serbs were probably not Sarmatians either... they are listed separately and Sarmatae are descendants of Medi people which are Medae from Iran...not much I2a there...perhaps R1a... ancient Serbi/Serboi lived in south Russia which is still part of Russia with most I2a-din...

Due to I2a1 spread I am considering to add Iberians to ancient I2a tribal name group (Sardinians, Serbi/Serboi, Sherdana, Kurds. Scordisci/Serdi...maybe Scirii as well)...and because Sardana dance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardana)which is more alike (regarding movements not music) to Balkan, Kurdish and Caucasus traditional circle dances than alike to west European dances....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P45b23T1GwQ

zanipolo
20-07-13, 22:04
I think now that it may have been other way around....
that Cimmerians were G2a people and I2a has travelled with them in scope of Thraco-Cimmerian movement...

note that archeological DNA from bronze age Thrace is I2a1...
also note that I2a haplogroup tribal name is reflected in Sardinia, which is the part with most I2a1 in Italy...

in addition, in Caucasus, Cimmeri and Serbi are captured by Pliny as separate by neighbouring tribes...


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0137:book=6:chapter= 7&highlight=serbi

in fact the text above shows also that ancient Serbs were probably not Sarmatians either... they are listed separately and Sarmatae are descendants of Medi people which are Medae from Iran...not much I2a there...perhaps R1a... ancient Serbi/Serboi lived in south Russia which is still part of Russia with most I2a-din...

Due to I2a1 spread I am considering to add Iberians to ancient I2a tribal name group (Sardinians, Serbi/Serboi, Sherdana, Kurds.)...and because Sardana dance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardana)which is more alike to Balkan, Kurdish and Caucasus traditional dances than alike to west European dances....

doubt very much the cimmerians where G2a even though they where thracian related. they entered the balkans around 650BC way to late to influence G2a in alpine areas.
G2a was from caucasus area

The cimmerians had to be I2a people who brought I2a to old yugoslav lands centuries before the slavs arrived. the origin of I2a is in the Ukraine.

The I2a1 in thracian lands is only along the black sea coast , clearly coming south from modovian area. Moldovia number 1 Ydna is I2a

how yes no 3
20-07-13, 22:38
doubt very much the cimmerians where G2a even though they where thracian related. they entered the balkans around 650BC way to late to influence G2a in alpine areas.
G2a was from caucasus area

The cimmerians had to be I2a people who brought I2a to old yugoslav lands centuries before the slavs arrived. the origin of I2a is in the Ukraine.

The I2a1 in thracian lands is only along the black sea coast , clearly coming south from modovian area. Moldovia number 1 Ydna is I2a

that's what i believed for years....

but if you look my posts above G2a settlements across Europe are marked with tribal group pattern: Umbrians, Ambiani, Kymris, Cymry and Garumna, which all is perfect match to Cimmerian / Gomerian tribal name pattern...

while I2a has correspondence with tribal name pattern Sardinians, Serbi/Serboi, Sherdana, Kurds, Scordisci/Serdi, Serbs, Sardis (Asia minor), Serres (Greece), Serdica & Krobyzoi (thrace), Siraces...and probably Scirii as well considering I2a-Din south in Baltic and elsewhere on Scirii locations

MOESAN
20-07-13, 23:50
that's what i believed for years....

but if you look my posts above G2a settlements across Europe are marked with tribal group pattern: Umbrians, Ambiani, Kymris, Cymry and Garumna, which all is perfect match to Cimmerian / Gomerian tribal name pattern...

while I2a has correspondence with tribal name pattern Sardinians, Serbi/Serboi, Sherdana, Kurds, Scordisci/Serdi, Serbs, Sardis (Asia minor), Serres (Greece), Serdica & Krobyzoi (thrace), Siraces...and probably Scirii as well considering I2a-Din south in Baltic and elsewhere on Scirii locations

a map is enough to you to make so precise deductions? by instance, Cymry (Welshes) are not in a hotspot of Y-G2a (maps are approximations with arbitrary limits: a change of colour in regions of scarce distribution can separate two regions differing by only 1%: hard to lift a complete theory) AND:...Cymry (=~Combrogi) # Cimmerians
- in italy SOME OF THE G2 settlements predated the name of Ambiani - maybe some Anatolia and Caucasus tribes names could be linked to SOME Y-G2 MORE THAN TO Y-I2a1b so...? and I 'm not aware of a Cimmerian link with western Balkans?!?
but here I have the impression to repeat myself and repeat other posters: be carefull when linking tribes names!

how yes no 3
21-07-13, 01:25
a map is enough to you to make so precise deductions? by instance, Cymry (Welshes) are not in a hotspot of Y-G2a (maps are approximations with arbitrary limits: a change of colour in regions of scarce distribution can separate two regions differing by only 1%: hard to lift a complete theory) AND:...Cymry (=~Combrogi) # Cimmerians

it is a hotspot of G2a compared to neighboring areas of UK...
and such a hotspot is a mark of a settlement wave..
based on a number of things (some explained in previous posts, some later in this one) i believe it is reasonable to link it to the spread of Cimmerians.....


your assumption is that Cymry is derived from Britonic "combrogi" = "compatriot; Welshman"
but I claim combrogi is coin word from root "com "(meaning "shared" as in common and compatriot) + old welsh brogi (teritory/state)... meaning "shared state" or people living in the same state...

combrogi is not a tribal name.... it is based on the loan word from english...

what people would base their tribal name/identity on a loan word whose meaning is"common" / "shared"? whole point of tribal names is that they are something that makes them special compared to surroundings...

it is though not uncommon that tribal names have a meaning "people" but that is the case when the word for people is different than in surrounding people.... "common" doesnot fall into that category.... besides its brittish word... welsh word for common are
cytir (http://www.geiriadur.net/index.php?page=ateb&uni=y&prefLang=&term=cytir&direction=we&whichpart=exact&type=noun) n.m. (cytiroedd) cyd (http://www.geiriadur.net/index.php?page=ateb&uni=y&prefLang=&term=cyd&direction=we&whichpart=exact&type=adjective) ..and for "shared" "rhannu"... and for "people" tud (http://www.geiriadur.net/index.php?page=ateb&uni=y&prefLang=&term=tud&direction=we&whichpart=exact&type=noun) n.f. gwerin (http://www.geiriadur.net/index.php?page=ateb&uni=y&prefLang=&term=gwerin&direction=we&whichpart=exact&type=noun) n.f. (gwerinoedd) pobl (http://www.geiriadur.net/index.php?page=ateb&uni=y&prefLang=&term=pobl&direction=we&whichpart=exact&type=noun)

so combrogi is not tribal name carrying identity, but Cymry can be....

in ancient Britain Deceangli, Ordovices and Silures are tribal names within Welsh speaking people... but there must be also a common name for tribes speaking same language... why not Cymry?
considering that Welsh language is originally known as Cymraeg / Gymraeg
neither Cymraeg nor Gymraeg can be derived from Combrogi
but they are easily derived from Cimmerian/Gommerian


you might be confused by reading that Cymry is attested as early as 7th century...and that attempts for linking it to Cimmerians were attested in 17th century...attested doesnot mean that words and interpretations didnot exist before.... there are not much documents from ancient times...

Cymry makes no sense as derivation from combrogi... Cimbri might make some sense...but Cimbri are, for all we know, unrelated people in Denmark...

-----------------------------------------




- in italy SOME OF THE G2 settlements predated the name of Ambiani - maybe some Anatolia and Caucasus
no Ambiani in Italy... you prob think of Umbrians...

G2 was widespread in Europe in neolithics...
but it would not survive arrival of new haplogroups (that have replaced G2a throughout Europe) in places that are not isolated and mountainous....
so spreads on not isolated places are likely to be more recent waves...
if you do not believe in several waves of G2a throughout history, just look at Alans...they did bring considerable G2a to Spain....



tribes names could be linked to SOME Y-G2 MORE THAN TO Y-I2a1b so...?

i think I make very reasonable assumption with idea that tribal name patterns as carriers of tribal identity did leave some marks in genetic data....correlations i have shown in posts above are clear...where there is elevated G2a there is often tribal name from haplogroup pattern (Umbrians, Ambiani, Kymris, Cymry and Garumna, Cymraeg/Gymraeg, Cimmerians/Gomerians), when there is no G2a elevation there is no such a name as genuine tribal identity carrier (Germans is exonym assigned in more recent times)...



and I 'm not aware of a Cimmerian link with western Balkans?!?
I never mentioned it....
Zanipolo claimed that I2a came to west Balkans with Cimmerians...
I never claimed anything like that.... when I was in past connecting I2a to Cimmerians, I was always relating its arrival to west Balkans mostly with south Slavs and also with Scordisci and Sherdana that followed Danube (and not west Balkans) spreading from continental Europe to east same as Cimmerians did follow the Danube going from Black sea to continental Europe...river valleys are convenient for mass migrations of military dominant people... easy to follow....no unexpected ambushes...



but here I have the impression to repeat myself and repeat other posters: be carefull when linking tribes names!
links between similar tribal names supported by some shared genetical footprint are much better indication of connection than lot of crap hypothesized by many historians and linguists in past.....

zanipolo
21-07-13, 02:03
I never mentioned it....
Zanipolo claimed that I2a came to west Balkans with Cimmerians...
I never claimed anything like that.... when I was in past connecting I2a to Cimmerians, I was always relating its arrival to west Balkans mostly with south Slavs and also with Scordisci and Sherdana that followed Danube (and not west Balkans) spreading from continental Europe to east same as Cimmerians did follow the Danube going from Black sea to continental Europe...river valleys are convenient for mass migrations of military dominant people... easy to follow....no unexpected ambushes...



links between similar tribal names supported by some shared genetical footprint are much better indication of connection than lot of crap hypothesized by many historians and linguists in past.....

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=t124cP06gg0C&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=cimmerians+in+pannonia&source=bl&ots=aRuyhWQfYO&sig=KjvbURlq5hF0LAn7rYuHxV7vvpM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kCTrUcqXGeWdiAfF4IDgDQ&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=cimmerians%20in%20pannonia&f=false

there are more books and papers reflecting this

MOESAN
21-07-13, 19:12
your assumption is that Cymry is derived from Britonic "combrogi" = "compatriot; Welshman"
but I claim combrogi is coin word from root "com "(meaning "shared" as in common and compatriot) + old welsh brogi (teritory/state)... meaning "shared state" or people living in the same state...

combrogi is not a tribal name.... it is based on the loan word from english...

FROM ENGLISH INDEED ?!?
TODAY NAME FOR A WELSH IN WELSH BRITTONIC CELTIC LANGUAGE IS 'CYMRO' <<CYMBRO = ALL CELTIC, BRETON 'KEMBROAD' (SUFFIXATION) - YOUR ARE RIGHT WHEN YOU SAY IT IS NOT AN OLD TRIBAL NAME AND YOU ARE RIGHT FOR THE MEANING BUT YOUR ARE WRONG CONCERNING LANGUAGE-
YOUR CONSTRUCTION WITH 'cyt' OR 'cet' IS FUNNY: YOU DO NOT SEE THAT 'cyt'/'cyd' IN WELSH IS OF THE SAME ROOT LIKE 'cym' and 'cyf' (BRETON 'ked', 'ken', 'kem', 'kev') - THE PREFIX 'com-', 'con', 'co-' IS LATINE, INDO EUROPEAN COGNATE WITH CELTIC BUT THE GERMANIC USE RATHER 'sam' TO INDICATE COMMUNITY / THE NAME 'CYMRO' ('CYMRI' INTERNAL INFECTED PLURIEL) IS CONSIDERED AS THE NAME OF A NEW GROUPING OF TRIBES DISPLACED BY THE ANGLO-SAXONS UNITED TO LOCAL TRIBES OF WESTERN BRITANNIA: YOUR DATATION SEEMS CONFIRM THAT, FAR OF CONFIRMING YOUR ASSERTIONS -
BY THE WAY, SILURI ARE MAYBE NOT A CELTIC TRIBE, MAYBE A MORE OLDER NON-CELTIC ONE
('bro' << 'brog' <> irish 'mruc' >< germanic 'mark' >> french 'marche'/'marque' <> 'marge' < latine 'margo' > new english 'merge'...


what people would base their tribal name/identity on a loan word whose meaning is"common" / "shared"? whole point of tribal names is that they are something that makes them special compared to surroundings...

NOT A LOAN WORD? SEE ABOVE

it is though not uncommon that tribal names have a meaning "people" but that is the case when the word for people is different than in surrounding people.... "common" doesnot fall into that category.... besides its brittish word... welsh word for common are
cytir (http://www.geiriadur.net/index.php?page=ateb&uni=y&prefLang=&term=cytir&direction=we&whichpart=exact&type=noun) n.m. (cytiroedd) cyd (http://www.geiriadur.net/index.php?page=ateb&uni=y&prefLang=&term=cyd&direction=we&whichpart=exact&type=adjective) ..and for "shared" "rhannu"... and for "people" tud (http://www.geiriadur.net/index.php?page=ateb&uni=y&prefLang=&term=tud&direction=we&whichpart=exact&type=noun) n.f. gwerin (http://www.geiriadur.net/index.php?page=ateb&uni=y&prefLang=&term=gwerin&direction=we&whichpart=exact&type=noun) n.f. (gwerinoedd) pobl (http://www.geiriadur.net/index.php?page=ateb&uni=y&prefLang=&term=pobl&direction=we&whichpart=exact&type=noun)

so combrogi is not tribal name carrying identity, but Cymry can be....

LOOK ABOVE - I ADD 'COMBROGI' WAS ALREADY THE NAME OF A GAULIC TRIBE...in ancient Britain Deceangli, Ordovices and Silures are tribal names within Welsh speaking people... but there must be also a common name for tribes speaking same language... why not Cymry?
considering that Welsh language is originally known as Cymraeg / Gymraeg
neither Cymraeg nor Gymraeg can be derived from Combrogi
but they are easily derived from Cimmerian/Gommerian


LOOK ABOVE AGAIN

you might be confused by reading that Cymry is attested as early as 7th century...and that attempts for linking it to Cimmerians were attested in 17th century...attested doesnot mean that words and interpretations didnot exist before.... there are not much documents from ancient times...

LOOK ABOVE : JUST THE ANGLO SAXON INVASION PERIOD
Cymry makes no sense as derivation from combrogi... Cimbri might make some sense...but Cimbri are, for all we know, unrelated people in Denmark...
WE DO NOT KNOW AT ALL IF CIMBRIS WERE NOT CELTS - I BELIEVE SOME TECHNICS OF THEIR ARTS REVEALED ACCORDING TO SOMEONES OLD EAST CENTRAL GAULS METHODS AND ALLIAGES - THEIR CHIEFS HAD CELTIC NAMES AND THEIR POSITION IN N-DENMARK IS A FINAL TERMINAL PLACE AFTER WANDERING - IT IS NOT TO SAY THEIR TRIBE NAME IS THE SAME AS CYMRY BECAUSE AT THIS TIME THE 'COM' WAS NOT TURNED INTO 'CYM' (pronounced [kÖM] for your "edification" - I THINK THEY WERE BELGAE CELTS, A BET OF MINE;



no Ambiani in Italy... you prob think of Umbrians...

SORRY, I MADE A MISTAKE! DO NOT TAKE MY PREVIOUS REMARK IN ACCOUNT


G2 was widespread in Europe in neolithics...
but it would not survive arrival of new haplogroups (that have replaced G2a throughout Europe) in places that are not isolated and mountainous....
so spreads on not isolated places are likely to be more recent waves...
if you do not believe in several waves of G2a throughout history, just look at Alans...they did bring considerable G2a to Spain....

I DO NOT BELIEVE IN THESE SWEAPING THESIS, SORRY - OLD Y-G2a NEOLITHICAL BEARERS STAYED IN PLACE EVEN IF OBLIGED TO SHARE TERRITORIES AND TO MIX AND LOOSE THE STRONG SIDE THEY HAD BEOFRE IN SOME PLACES OF EUROPE NOT EVERYWHERE - I
I AGREE FOR SUBSEQUENT WAVES OF G2a - BUT ALL G2a IN IBERIA IS NOT FROM ALANI PEOPLE i think I make very reasonable assumption with idea that tribal name patterns as carriers of tribal identity did leave some marks in genetic data....correlations i have shown in posts above are clear...where there is elevated G2a there is often tribal name from haplogroup pattern (Umbrians, Ambiani, Kymris, Cymry and Garumna, Cymraeg/Gymraeg, Cimmerians/Gomerians), when there is no G2a elevation there is no such a name as genuine tribal identity carrier (Germans is exonym assigned in more recent times)...
UMBRIANS AND AMBIANI HAS NOTHING TO DO ONE TOGETHER, AT LEAST AS NAMES - STILL THIS MAGIC LINGUISTIC WORLD

I never mentioned it....
Zanipolo claimed that I2a came to west Balkans with Cimmerians...
I never claimed anything like that.... when I was in past connecting I2a to Cimmerians, I was always relating its arrival to west Balkans mostly with south Slavs and also with Scordisci and Sherdana that followed Danube (and not west Balkans) spreading from continental Europe to east same as Cimmerians did follow the Danube going from Black sea to continental Europe...river valleys are convenient for mass migrations of military dominant people... easy to follow....no unexpected ambushes...

SORRY IF I MISREAD YOU FOR BALKANS AND CIMMERIANS -
ON AN OTHER SIDE, I AM OBLIGED TO CONFESS YOUR TARGET FOR SHARDANA'S SHOOTS ME AND PUT ME ON MY BOTTOM!
I AGRRE WITH YOU CONCERNING RIVERS BUT IT IS SHORT TO EXPLAIN EVERYTHING
links between similar tribal names supported by some shared genetical footprint are much better indication of connection than lot of crap hypothesized by many historians and linguists in past.....

I REPEAT WALES HAVE NO HOTSPOT OF Y-G: IT HAS ONLY A 1% TO 2% MORE THAN OTHER BRITISH PEOPLE ( I DON'T KNOW THE SAMPLE SIZE - A LITTLE BIT MORE OF NEOLITHICAL PEOPLE (SILURI AMONG THEM?) COULD EXPLAIN THAT VERY EASY!!!


my answer are in bold capital letters among the post I answer to it. Sorry for this lack of technicity!
logic is a thing in science, necessary, BUT verification is not too bad too.

adamo
26-09-13, 12:20
It's interesting to see how most Italian samples are G2a (P15), most European samples for that matter, and that the hotspot we can see on the map in what is basically today's modern Georgia moving across Turkey and into Europe, most of them are also G2a variety, clearly marking a line of migration. Although it is probably in the darkened regions of Iran on the map that G1 would ultimately have originated. It's interesting to note that europe's highs are now officially recognized as being found in southern Italy; in regions like L'Aquila (21.5%), Campobasso (24%), Matera (25%) and Cosenza/Catanzaro/Crotone (21%). Similar frequencies to this are found nationally among Georgians (31%) and Azerbaijanis (18%) and nearby Turks/Armenians as well. Even higher frequencies are found in the Ossetians, Nakh people's of the Caucasus mountain range (88%!).

adamo
26-09-13, 12:36
Clearly evidence of at least minimal gene flow from the Caucasus region towards Mediterranean Europe during the Neolithic, not much else could explain the P15 migration.As for constant evidence of ancient DNA across Central Europe being G, I find that a bit more confusing, maybe they had moved towards Iberia and even into southern Germany, since G comes up more often in DNA analysis of European skeletal remains, maybe this indicates there was less haplogroup variability at the time....either way today, Switzerland has about 2-5% hg G and same for southern Germany, so it is a very minor italy element, compared to southern Italy for example. Very low frequencies are experienced across most of Europe, but peaks can be found among Aromun Albanians (7-10%), European Ashkenazi Jews (10%), 8% of Catalonian Spanish males, 8% of hungarians, 9-10% of Greeks, 11% of Cretans, 10% of Italians, 20% of northern Sardinians, 15% of southern Sardinians, 15-20% of southern Italians and 13-15% of west Sicilians.

adamo
26-09-13, 12:48
It seems that G'smeuopean expansion may. Have been bigger once but was cut down to size by certain unknown events, either way, a high in south eastern/central Mediterranean Europe certain southern italian,Sardinian, Cretan/Greek regions seem to have slightly inflated levels. In the CAUCASUS region in particular, 30-40% of Abazinian males have G. The Abkhaz have between 0-56% in their studies. The Adygey people have 28-81%. Armenians have 10-30% and Azeris have about 20%. Ossetians have 55-75%, Rutuls have 38%, Georgians have 30% etc.

Angela
26-09-13, 14:35
It seems that G'smeuopean expansion may. Have been bigger once but was cut down to size by certain unknown events, either way, a high in south eastern/central Mediterranean Europe certain southern italian,Sardinian, Cretan/Greek regions seem to have slightly inflated levels. In the CAUCASUS region in particular, 30-40% of Abazinian males have G. The Abkhaz have between 0-56% in their studies. The Adygey people have 28-81%. Armenians have 10-30% and Azeris have about 20%. Ossetians have 55-75%, Rutuls have 38%, Georgians have 30% etc.

The climate related population collapse of cultures like LBK in central Europe could explain the tapering off of G2a, along with the entrance of other population groups from the east.

adamo
26-09-13, 14:40
That's correct.

MOESAN
27-09-13, 22:31
G-L497
Spatial frequency distribution of the median HT cluster specific for haplogroup G-L497 in Europe. The frequency data were obtained by a search in the YHRD (release 41) and comprise 260 samples belonging to the median HT cluster found in 34,386 samples from 173 European population samples (sample size > 50). The sample locations are indicated by “+”.



Clearly G2a3 hg did not come by boat to north Italy







http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/7560/um.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/547/um.gif/)
interesting map - but what weight have this downstream SNP among western Y-G2a? and what is the value of this 'median' STR ??? before answer I need to know that -
that said, Austria and Switzerland, by their position, could have received G2a from maritime-" then rhodanian" cardial (subsequent cultures from cardial are attested archeologically and anthropologicaly in Switzerland) and from "fluvial" danubian neolithicers, no big surprise -

Sile
28-09-13, 06:10
http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/7560/um.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/547/um.gif/)
interesting map - but what weight have this downstream SNP among western Y-G2a? and what is the value of this 'median' STR ??? before answer I need to know that -
that said, Austria and Switzerland, by their position, could have received G2a from maritime-" then rhodanian" cardial (subsequent cultures from cardial are attested archeologically and anthropologicaly in Switzerland) and from "fluvial" danubian neolithicers, no big surprise -


that map represents only 1 SNP and that is G-L497 ...........stated that it was created by the Raeti in the alps

adamo
28-09-13, 07:56
The biggest high of G in Greece is found in the Thessaly region of central Greece were 12% of men belong to G. Much of th rest of the country has 4-8% frequencies.

MOESAN
30-09-13, 17:26
G-L497
Spatial frequency distribution of the median HT cluster specific for haplogroup G-L497 in Europe. The frequency data were obtained by a search in the YHRD (release 41) and comprise 260 samples belonging to the median HT cluster found in 34,386 samples from 173 European population samples (sample size > 50). The sample locations are indicated by “+”.

http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/7560/um.gif (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/547/um.gif/)

Clearly G2a3 hg did not come by boat to north Italy

I 'm late to answer this:
this STR based figure provides NO trail at first sight - and the bipolar occupation in NW and NE Italy BUT NOT in NC Italy is intriguing too so?
one can answer me the former trail was erased by subsequent invasions, it is possible - but the fact is: this figure speaks for A PART (only) of the Y-G2a3
what is more informative is the GLOBAL difference of SNPs with Otzi and Corsicans-Sardinians that are more "maritime"like - (look at other thread about G2) -but In think now that, yes, this G2a are more continental than maritime

G2ian
12-02-19, 19:06
What is the relationship between Italian G2a and Caucasian G2a ? My tests told me i was 80% Italian, but I talked to the local Geneticist and he said "by that analysis we're all 80% Italian" He says that's only due to the lack of data and it would be just as accurate/inaccurate if they give all Italian G2a's 80% Georgian origin.

Angela
12-02-19, 20:05
What is the relationship between Italian G2a and Caucasian G2a ? My tests told me i was 80% Italian, but I talked to the local Geneticist and he said "by that analysis we're all 80% Italian" He says that's only due to the lack of data and it would be just as accurate/inaccurate if they give all Italian G2a's 80% Georgian origin.

It is EXTREMELY unlikely that a Georgian comes out as 80% autosomally Italian.

I think you may be confused about uniparental markers like your yDna and autosomal dna. They are very different.

Please go to one of the threads that has posts about Georgian autosomal dna, or you could start one and post the results from the tests you took. Genealogy is very different from genetics.

There are various sub-groups of G2a in Italy, some more "Central European", some Anatolian etc.

Ray Banks is very knowledgeable. This might be helpful.
https://sites.google.com/site/haplogroupgproject/

G2ian
12-02-19, 21:36
Oh no > livingDNA has 3 different results. Autosomal (on which I am 55.9% Italian)

However what I was mentioning above was my Y results. But I just went there to check again and it seems to have changed(do they change these results over time?) It used to say 80% Italy and 20% Eastern Europe, now it is more specific and diverse. Also I can't find my exact strand on Ray Banks I've looked.

Angela
12-02-19, 22:02
Oh no > livingDNA has 3 different results. Autosomal (on which I am 55.9% Italian)

However what I was mentioning above was my Y results. But I just went there to check again and it seems to have changed(do they change these results over time?) It used to say 80% Italy and 20% Eastern Europe, now it is more specific and diverse. Also I can't find my exact strand on Ray Banks I've looked.

Could you please post a screen shot of the LivingDNA page which tells you that? I knew they were terrible, but this terrible? :)

brick
12-02-19, 22:07
Oh no > livingDNA has 3 different results. Autosomal (on which I am 55.9% Italian)

However what I was mentioning above was my Y results. But I just went there to check again and it seems to have changed(do they change these results over time?) It used to say 80% Italy and 20% Eastern Europe, now it is more specific and diverse. Also I can't find my exact strand on Ray Banks I've looked.


I already thought before tonight that LivingDNA was not very accurate, but if this result you say is true is the ultimate proof that Autosomal result of LivingDNA is a big joke.




Could you please post a screen shot of the LivingDNA page which tells you that? I knew they were terrible, but this terrible? :)


The autosomal results of LivingDNA are very inaccurate. Maybe it works well with the British and a few others but for many other ethnic groups it gives imaginative and unbelievable results.

Angela
12-02-19, 22:17
I already thought before tonight that LivingDNA was not very accurate, but if this result you say is true is the ultimate proof that Autosomal result of LivingDNA is a big joke.






The autosomal results of LivingDNA are very inaccurate. Maybe it works well with the British and a few others but for many other ethnic groups it gives imaginative and unbelievable results.

If our new member isn't misinterpreting it, they should get sued for malpractice! :)

That's why I'd like to see the actual screenshot.

G2ian
12-02-19, 22:27
Umm, this forum is a pain in the neck. It wont allow me to make posts properly because I don't have 10 posts yet :( It's blocking any link i post, I guess it's a spam deterrent.

But yea As soon as I get to 10 I'll post pics.


Yea I knew it was a joke because they have no designation for Caucasus countries but they instead say "Northeast Turkey" aka Turkified Georgian region with same dna as Caucasus. And "northwest Caucaus". my %s are divided between the two. Georgian Geneticist who works in the Tbilisi medical university had a good laugh at me after he saw my haplogroup and compared it to the results. It seems my Ydna is most common in western Georgia but not according to LivingDNA.

Edit: I can PM you and you post it.

brick
12-02-19, 22:27
If our new member isn't misinterpreting it, they should get sued for malpractice! :)

That's why I'd like to see the actual screenshot.

LivingDNA is so inaccurate with so many ethnic groups that these results could also be true, because of LivingDNa which is not accurate. Obviously even if true these results remain not at all credible.

gidai
12-02-19, 22:44
Oh no > livingDNA has 3 different results. Autosomal (on which I am 55.9% Italian)

However what I was mentioning above was my Y results. But I just went there to check again and it seems to have changed(do they change these results over time?) It used to say 80% Italy and 20% Eastern Europe, now it is more specific and diverse. Also I can't find my exact strand on Ray Banks I've looked.
Are you Georgian?
The result with so much Italian is incredible. I am much closer to Italy and I do not even have 15% of what you have ... and those probably swollen. Not even many Italians have so many percent of Italy. lol ...

G2ian
12-02-19, 22:48
Are you Georgian?
The result with so much Italian is incredible. I am much closer to Italy and I do not even have 10% of what you have ... and those probably swollen. Not even many Italians have so many percent of Italy. lol ...
Yes I can trace at least 6 generations of paternal grandparents to my ancestral village... and beyond that it's traced by last names which in my case is native to that region.

Angela
12-02-19, 22:58
Don't let it upset you. It's just because they have no Georgian samples, obviously.

What they're picking up on is the early Anatolian farmer mixed with some Iranian Neolithic which you share with Southern Italians and Greeks.

There's a calculator out there, I can't remember which one, which doesn't have Tuscan or even northern Italian samples, just ones from Southern Italy. It told me I was Bulgarian!

I can trace most of my family lines back to about 1550.

G2ian
12-02-19, 23:00
Don't let it upset you. It's just because they have no Georgian samples, obviously.

What they're picking up on is the early Anatolian farmer mixed with some Iranian Neolithic which you share with Southern Italians and Greeks.

There's a calculator out there, I can't remember which one, which doesn't have Tuscan or even northern Italian samples, just ones from Southern Italy. It told me I was Bulgarian!

I can trace most of my family lines back to about 1550.
Why would I be upset. Italians and Georgians are related either way through G ancestry..

Lasagna doesn't fall too far from Achma it seems :D

Yea G must stand for Gourmet.

gidai
12-02-19, 23:01
Yes I can trace at least 6 generations of paternal grandparents to my ancestral village... and beyond that it's traced by last names which in my case is native to that region. And nothing from England?! For L-dna this is imposible...

G2ian
12-02-19, 23:03
And nothing from England?! For L-dna this is imposible...
Pardon me ? L-dna ?

gidai
12-02-19, 23:20
Pardon me ? L-dna ?Living_DNA

brick
14-03-19, 14:46
Why would I be upset. Italians and Georgians are related either way through G ancestry..

Y-DNA G exists throughout Europe and it is not a special relationship between Italians and Georgians.

https://i.imgur.com/8VVirEy.gif

G2ian
16-03-19, 05:22
Y-DNA G exists throughout Europe and it is not a special relationship between Italians and Georgians.

https://i.imgur.com/8VVirEy.gifThey look like us, They have similar cuisine, They are expressive and emotive. Western Georgian dialects sound very much like south Italian, they also have similar folk music, they have close family ties and they're almost as good at mafia as us.

Genetics or not there's plenty of similarities.

dominique_nuit
28-03-19, 05:42
As a half-Italian American, I must say I have always had a weakness for Georgian women

Angela
28-03-19, 14:03
You amaze me. Where the heck do you find Georgian women in New York, or anywhere in the U.S.???

Joey37
28-03-19, 15:02
(maybe he's confusing them with women from the state of Georgia)

bigsnake49
28-03-19, 18:49
You amaze me. Where the heck do you find Georgian women in New York, or anywhere in the U.S.???

He can find them in Athens. Lots of Georgian people emigrated to Greece under false papers pretending to be Pontic Greeks.

I know at least one Georgian woman in New York, our seat mate on the plane to Athens.

Angela
28-03-19, 19:36
He can find them in Athens. Lots of Georgian people emigrated to Greece under false papers pretending to be Pontic Greeks.

I know at least one Georgian woman in New York, our seat mate on the plane to Athens.

Well, I know one too: she was my first nanny, via Russia, who came here with her Russian husband. Neither the marriage nor later the job worked out.That doesn't mean there are hundreds running around for him to form an opinion,.

Plus, all I know of him is that he's from New York with a French name.

Maybe if people put ethnicity as well as location, we'd have a better idea of the person and his or her experiences.

dominique_nuit
29-03-19, 08:21
Don't worry, I will eventually post on the Italian diaspora thread. But in NYC, there are literally people from everywhere. So yes, I have in fact dated a few Georgian women. And they are magnetic. But I remain a bachelor who will probably die a lonely old man

G2ian
29-03-19, 16:16
There's more than a hundred thousand of us around northeast US. One of the biggest Georgian diasporas is around New York. heck go to Brooklyn or Queens and you'll see ton of Georgian bakeries and restaurants.

Angela
29-03-19, 16:50
There's more than a hundred thousand of us around northeast US. One of the biggest Georgian diasporas is around New York. heck go to Brooklyn or Queens and you'll see ton of Georgian bakeries and restaurants.

Good to know.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Georgian+(Caucasus)+bakeries+and+restaura nts+in+New+York+City&npsic=0&rflfq=1&rlha=0&rllag=40656335,-73921051,9789&tbm=lcl&ved=2ahUKEwjqoYCmy6fhAhXqlOAKHTt7BgMQjGp6BAgKEEE&tbs=lrf:!2m1!1e2!2m1!1e1!2m1!1e3!3sIAE,lf:1,lf_ui: 9&rldoc=1#rlfi=hd:;si:;mv:!1m2!1d40.7688639!2d-73.8496244!2m2!1d40.570777299999996!2d-74.040174;tbs:lrf:!2m1!1e2!2m1!1e1!2m1!1e3!3sIAE,l f:1,lf_ui:9

I'm definitely going to check them out.

Tutkun Arnaut
29-03-19, 18:13
Good to know.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Georgian+(Caucasus)+bakeries+and+restaura nts+in+New+York+City&npsic=0&rflfq=1&rlha=0&rllag=40656335,-73921051,9789&tbm=lcl&ved=2ahUKEwjqoYCmy6fhAhXqlOAKHTt7BgMQjGp6BAgKEEE&tbs=lrf:!2m1!1e2!2m1!1e1!2m1!1e3!3sIAE,lf:1,lf_ui: 9&rldoc=1#rlfi=hd:;si:;mv:!1m2!1d40.7688639!2d-73.8496244!2m2!1d40.570777299999996!2d-74.040174;tbs:lrf:!2m1!1e2!2m1!1e1!2m1!1e3!3sIAE,l f:1,lf_ui:9

I'm definitely going to check them out.

there are few Georgians in NY city. most of them stick with Russians. I don't think there are many of them since they are not mentioned any where. I personally have known two young brothers. One was dark Gypsy like., the other one was light Nordic like. I never seen to brothers with a such racial contrast. I even asked them about that and they had the view that Georgians were once a blond nation but the long presence of Turkey in their country changed that. That's the popular view all over the Balkans that Turkey is to blame for their darkening but obviously DNA tells us that is not the case

G2ian
29-03-19, 19:00
there are few Georgians in NY city. most of them stick with Russians. I don't think there are many of them since they are not mentioned any where. I personally have known two young brothers. One was dark Gypsy like., the other one was light Nordic like. I never seen to brothers with a such racial contrast. I even asked them about that and they had the view that Georgians were once a blond nation but the long presence of Turkey in their country changed that. That's the popular view all over the Balkans that Turkey is to blame for their darkening but obviously DNA tells us that is not the case
We tend to keep to ourselves, if you met me on the street you'd never know I wasn't a New Yorker, but every day when I walk around Manhattan I hear someone pass by speaking Georgian so we're not that few just not easy to recognize.


It's exactly the same with me and my siblings. Actually very common in Georgia. Lots of people in the western parts trend towards Blonde, Blue/Green/Grey eyes and very light skin, especially those from the mountains.

It's also one reason why Georgians have very hard time grasping the racial distaste based on skin color between Mediterraneans and northerners, light/dark types, because here you get vast spectrum of skin and eye colors just within the families let alone in the country.

I don't know about historically white/dark. The theory probably comes from the fact that most of the light skinned people come from Caucasus mountains who are thought to be the oldest inhabitants of Georgia and closer you get to south the darker the skin gets. I don't know what deductions we can make based on that but that's what people believe. Also I don't believe Turks had anything to do with it. If anything there's more genetic drift from Caucasus into Anatolia rather than vice versa.


EDIT: Actually now that I thought about it. Mountain Caucasians weren't allowed to marry someone from their or related villages so they used to go kidnap wives from all over the northern steppe... If we were originally dark skinned we might've stolen some light skinned women and gotten lighter, ... sorry about that :ashamed2:

mtdna map of Caucasus would be interesting actually.

Angela
29-03-19, 20:19
there are few Georgians in NY city. most of them stick with Russians. I don't think there are many of them since they are not mentioned any where. I personally have known two young brothers. One was dark Gypsy like., the other one was light Nordic like. I never seen to brothers with a such racial contrast. I even asked them about that and they had the view that Georgians were once a blond nation but the long presence of Turkey in their country changed that. That's the popular view all over the Balkans that Turkey is to blame for their darkening but obviously DNA tells us that is not the case

Well, let's assume there are 50,000 (100,000 in the greater Northeast) of them in the greater New York Metropolitan area. In a population of over 20 MILLION they're not going to make much of a splash.