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Maciamo
09-06-13, 15:59
Haplogroup J1 is found at relatively low frequencies in Europe, except in Italy and Greece. The new study by Boattini et al. (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441) provides new insight into the distribution of J1 and its subclades in Italy.

The highest concentration is found in Agrigento (12%) in southwest Sicily, most probably due to the Phoenician then Arabic influences.

Otherwise J1 is generally found at higher frequencies in the Apennines, from Bologna (7%) and Pistoia (7.5%) in the north to Campobasso (3.5%) and Benevento (8.5%) in the south, passing through Foligno (5.5%) and L'Aquila (4.5%). The same is also true for haplogroup G2a, which could mean that J1 was a minor Neolithic lineage accompanying G2a, as I have hypothesised several times in the past.

North Italy

In Cuneo, south-west Piedmont, 1 out of 30 samples are J1e (3.5%).

In Savona/Genova, central Liguria, 2 out of 50 samples are J1 (4%).

In Como, north-west Lombardy, 0 out of 41 samples are J1 (0%).

In Brescia, north-east Lombardy, 0 out of 39 samples are J1 (0%).

In Vicenza, central-west Veneto, 1 out of 40 samples are J1 (2.5%).

In Treviso, central-east Veneto, 0 out of 30 samples are J1 (0%).

In Bologna, central Emilia-Romagna, 2 out of 29 samples J1e (7%).


Central Italy

In La Spezia-Massa, north-west Tuscany, 0 out of 24 samples are J1 (0%).

In Pistoia, central-north Tuscany, 1 out of 13 samples are J1e (7.5%).

In Grosetto-Siena, southern Tuscany, 3 out of 86 samples are J1 (3.5%), including one J1e sample.

In Foligno, central-east Umbria, 2 out of 37 samples are J1 (5.5%), including one J1e sample.

In Macerata, central-east Marche, 1 out of 40 samples are J1 (2.5%).


South Italy

In L'Aquila, Abruzzo, 1 out of 23 samples are J1e (4.5%).

In Campobasso, Molise, 1 out of 29 samples are J1e (3.5%).

In Benevento, Campania, 3 out of 36 samples are J1 (8.5%).

In Matera, Basilicata, 0 samples out of 25 are J1 (0%).

In Lecce, Apulia, 2 out of 39 samples are J1 (5%), including one J1e sample.

In Cosenza/Catanzaro/Crotone, Calabria, 1 out of 38 samples were J1 (2.5%).

In Catania, eastern Sicily, 2 out of 62 samples are J1e (3%).

In Ragusa, southeast Sicily, 2 out of 44 samples are J1 (4.5%).

In Agrigento, southwest Sicily, 5 out of 42 samples are J1 (12%), including four J1e sample.

In Olbia/Tempio/Nuoro, north-east Sardinia, 1 out of 40 samples are J1e (2.5%).

In Oristano, central-west Sardinia, 0 out of 42 samples are J1 (0%).




EDIT: Here are some results from other studies.

Battaglia et al. 2008 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947100/) found 0% of J1 in Trento, southern Trentino-Alto-Adige ot of 67 samples.

Ferri et al. 2007 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0379073807005816%22) found 0% of J1 in Valmarecchia and Rimini, both in eastern Romagna.


Capelli et al. (2007) (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1055790306004866) tested J* and J1 together and found:

North Italy

In Val Badia, Alto Adige, 0 out of 34 samples were J1 (0%).

Central Italy

In Elba Island, north-west Tuscany, 0 out of 95 samples were J1 (0%).

In Central Tuscany, 3 out of 41 samples were J1 (7%).

At the Tuscany-Latium border, 0 out of 79 samples were J1 (0%).

In the North-East Latium, 0 out of 55 samples were J1 (0%).

In the South Latium, 0 out of 51 samples were J1 (0%).

In Central Marche, 3 out of 59 samples were J1 (5%).

In Apennine Marche, 0 out of 27 samples were J1 (0%).

South Italy

In West Campania, 4 out of 84 samples were J1 (5%).

In North-West Apulia, 1 out of 46 samples were J1 (2%).

In South Apulia, 1 out of 71 samples were J1 (1%).

In West Calabria, 2 out of 57 samples were J1 (4%).



Di Giacomo et al. (2002) (http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/italy.pdf) also tested J*+J1 together and found:

North Italy

In Val di Non, Trentino-Alto Adige, 0% of J1 was found out of 30 samples.

In Verona, west Veneto, 0% of J1 was found out of 22 samples.

In Genoa, central Liguria, 3.4% of J1 was found out of 29 samples.

Central Italy

In Garfagnana, north-west Tuscany, 0% of J1 was found out of 42 samples.

South Italy

In L'Aquila, west Abruzzo, 2.9% of J1 was found out of 35 samples.

In Pescara, east Abruzzo, 15% of J1 was found out of 20 samples.

In Avezzano, south-west Abruzzo, 3.4% of J1 was found out of 29 samples.

In the North Gargano peninsula, northern Apulia, 17.2% of J1 was found out of 29 samples.

In Foggia, northern Apulia, 0% of J1 was found out of 27 samples.

In Benevento, central-east Campania, 6.5% of J1 was found out of 46 samples.

In the Cilento peninsula, southern Campania, 6.3% of J1 was found out of 48 samples.

In Casarano, southern Apulia, 0% of J1 was found out of 20 samples.

In Brindisi, central-east Apulia, 2.6% of J1 was found out of 38 samples.

In Altamura, central-west Apulia, 0% of J1 was found out of 25 samples.

In Matera, central-east Basilicata, 0% of J1 was found out of 24 samples.

In Paola, north-west Calabria, 11.1% of J1 was found out of 27 samples.

In Reggio Calabriab, southern Calabria, 9.1% of J1 was found out of 33 samples.



Brisighelli et al. (2012) (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0050794) tested J*+J1 together. the results are very surprising given that J* is far higher than J1. IMHO, a lot of J1 was probably wrongly assigned as J*. This study has a lot of other inadequacies, including very poor and misleading labelling.

North Italy

In Trentino-Alto-Adige (Ladini), 0% of J1 and 0% of J* was found out of 34 samples.

In Udine, central-east Friuli-Venezia Giulia, 0% of J1 and 0% of J* was found out of 47 samples.

In eastern Liguria, 0% of J1 and 2.2% of J* was found out of 46 samples.

Central Italy

In north-west Marche (Piceni), 0% of J1 and 7.9% of J* was found out of 38 samples.

In South Latium (Latini), 4.5% of J1 and 0% of J* was found out of 44 samples.

South Italy

In Lucera, nortern Apulia, 0% of J1 and 1.7% of J* was found out of 60 samples.

In central Basilicata (Saniti), 0% of J1 and 6.5% of J* was found out of 30 samples.

In central Apulia (Salentine Greek), 0% of J1 and 2.1% of J* was found out of 47 samples.

In southern Apulia (Messapi), 2.5% of J1 and 0% of J* was found out of 49 samples.

In north-west Calabria (Belvedere), 0% of J1 and 0% of J* was found out of 27 samples.

In Sicily (Catania + Trapani), 0% of J1 and 7.2% of J* was found out of 57 samples.

binx
09-06-13, 16:03
Thanks, Maciamo. I see less J1 in Italy than in the past studies. Especially in Tuscany.

Maciamo
09-06-13, 18:23
Here is the updated map of J1.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J1.gif

albanopolis
09-06-13, 20:36
Here is the updated map of J1.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J1.gif

J1 in Ballkans it is not native. Ita a legacy of Turkish conquest of the area. J1 in Italy it is legacy of Arab conquest of the area. In France should be a reflection of Arab immigrant presence.

Gosh
12-06-13, 22:19
J1 in Ballkans it is not native. Ita a legacy of Turkish conquest of the area. J1 in Italy it is legacy of Arab conquest of the area. In France should be a reflection of Arab immigrant presence.

Another Eupedia's genius.
Before you wrote these sentences, have you ever checked haplotypes from Turkey with those from Europe? If you did you'd never wrote that kind of stupidity.

Or... you have some secret data not acessible for the rest of the planet. I dunno.

albanopolis
13-06-13, 00:43
Another Eupedia's genius.
Before you wrote these sentences, have you ever checked haplotypes from Turkey with those from Europe? If you did you'd never wrote that kind of stupidity.

Or... you have some secret data not acessible for the rest of the planet. I dunno.

I did not, but if Ballkanic haplotypes are different from that of Turkey, its not neccesary tru that they are native. Turkish haplotype, can develop at new one in the proces of Genetic mixing.

Gosh
17-06-13, 17:56
I did not, but if Ballkanic haplotypes are different from that of Turkey, its not neccesary tru that they are native. Turkish haplotype, can develop at new one in the proces of Genetic mixing.


You'd have to. They mainly have nothing to do with Ottomanic Turks. If you want to be accepted as a serious contributor of this forum, you'll have to analyze various haplotypes before you start to prove something.

albanopolis
17-06-13, 19:09
You'd have to. They mainly have nothing to do with Ottomanic Turks. If you want to be accepted as a serious contributor of this forum, you'll have to analyze various haplotypes before you start to prove something.
Look! I am not a literate genetist. But, common sense dictates that Turks brought genetic changes to the area. Now, it can't be that major haplogroups of populations, were brought by Turks because that would have brought popultion change, or mildly speaking Turkization of populations. Since Turkisation has not happened in a large scale, then its totaly possible that minor haplogroups to have been brought. Populations of ballkans are not geneticaly identical.

Yetos
17-06-13, 19:47
Look! I am not a literate genetist. But, common sense dictates that Turks brought genetic changes to the area. Now, it can't be that major haplogroups of populations, were brought by Turks because that would have brought popultion change, or mildly speaking Turkization of populations. Since Turkisation has not happened in a large scale, then its totaly possible that minor haplogroups to have been brought. Populations of ballkans are not geneticaly identical.

and why should be genetically identical?

Fire Haired
27-06-13, 06:28
J1 in Ballkans it is not native. Ita a legacy of Turkish conquest of the area. J1 in Italy it is legacy of Arab conquest of the area. In France should be a reflection of Arab immigrant presence.


i think there is no doubt almost all Y DnA J1, E1b1b,J2, ad T came in greco roman times they all are distrubutedthe same way they came froim the same from the same evet which was greco roman world here is a link that explains it http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28810-Rome-spread-Middle-Eastern-and-North-African-Y-DNA

MOESAN
05-07-13, 23:35
these Hgs are old inhabitants of Europe even if not the first ones - they were old neighbours from Near-Eastern and their SNps (downstream "sons") knew different stories - so we have to possess some deep surveys before speaking with too loud voice - some Y-J1 in Europe show some maritime tendance far North (Western Europe, Scandinavia: and even so an constatation does not resolve completley the equation: we can imagine some megalithic movements and some phoenicians ones!
surely Greeks and more Romans played a role in the soty but even when you consider Y-E1b1 (V13) you cannot imput all their presence to Roma or Greece...for Y-J2 there are different repartitions concerning SNPs even if we know their origin is common not far ago
in France, the surveys are too limited and there are to many holes between Auvergne and Paris to base something serious about central France DNA - I remind already Limousin, side-by-side with Auvergne, show some different influences in ancestry, so ...
I regreat wa have not more deep and numerous surveys about this matter...
one day, perhaps...

adamo
28-08-13, 02:04
It seems that the italian high of J1 is 12% in a particular region of Sicily and 17% of J1 near apulia's gargano peninsula. This would have been where the iapygians had originally landed, high in J2, G2 also peaks in tat region and a few others.

adamo
28-08-13, 02:06
Northern apulia near foggia/gargano has about 28-30% J2 and 15-17% J1. That's about 44-45% of males from there are in the J family.

Angela
01-09-13, 20:32
Northern apulia near foggia/gargano has about 28-30% J2 and 15-17% J1. That's about 44-45% of males from there are in the J family.

I'm sure you know, but for those who don't, Lucera, which is in northern Apulia, was the site to which a large contingent of Moslem Sicilians were exiled by Frederick II. After years of living there peacefully, they were supposedly wiped out, being either killed or sold into slavery. As with all of these kinds of claims, I think it's likely some had blended in, and those J1 numbers, in particular, depending upon the subclade, might bear that out.

adamo
01-09-13, 21:20
Apulia coincides with the region of establishment of the Iapygian culture; these people arrived from the island of Crete and had a type of Mycenean era pottery they would make. They would have been loaded with exotic strains of J2 native to Crete and the Middle East as well. The later arrival of Greek colonizers brought a treasure trove of E-V13 as well to parts of apulia,basilicata and Calabria in particular, although both Sicily and Sardinia where affected by E3b as well (not nevessarily E-V13 as it is rarer on Sardinia but it is present on Sicily, although there is E-M81 and rare E-M78 older branches as well in the latter two regions).

adamo
11-09-13, 03:30
Another fascinating haplogroup would be F; it is found in 27% of Koya tribal Indians and 10% of Sinhalese populations. India's tribal groups have it as the most frequent "secondary element at 12.5%; The caste groups have it at 10%, but the tribal groups have 16% F, second only to hg H. Speaking of Europe, oddly, the highest % are in Pistoia (7.7%) Tuscany, and in Sicily (12%), probably due to middle eastern genetic flow to these regions.

LeBrok
11-09-13, 03:56
Here is the updated map of J1.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J1.gif



I wonder if J1 could be behind Cucuteni-Tripolia culture? Wave of farming migrants in 7,000 BCE.
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTO6xglwvBvBS7UiRcJnVzbikz45KtNr bkFiGbZeoM-VrtYjhbNQg
They occupied many nice valleys in Europe. Bulgaria, Pannonia and Central France. I'm not sure why Italy was so popular, but perhaps it was more fertile way back

Hauteville
30-11-14, 17:43
Agrigento was not phoenician colony but greek founded by cretans (J1 is also high in Crete btw).
The phoenician colony of Sicily was Palermo with Mothia as base and emporium.

"Fondata nel 581 a.C. dai coloni Rodii e Cretesi della vicina Gela, Akragas divenne in breve tempo una delle pi importanti citt della Magna Grecia, in Sicilia seconda solo a Siracusa."

http://www.comune.agrigento.it/index.php/la-citta/agrigento

Temple valley of Akragas (Agrigento)

http://i57.tinypic.com/mjyemo.jpg

Maleth
30-11-14, 20:44
J1 in Italy is generally evenly distributed and found in areas that were never conquered by moors. There is no big differences between the areas that was under fatmid and aglabide rule to regions that were not.

Spain has been conquered by moors for double the time and the J1 percentages are not any higher then those of Italy, so I doubt that there has been any significant J1's admixture from during this period. I believe that J1 had a better chance on entering during the neolithic (as Lebrok mentioned), some through the Greek immigration (as Hautville mentioned and well documented settlements) also through Phoenician and maybe some more during the Roman period through slavery. (again, I am not familiar from which part of the empire the Roman slaves were and how they were absorbed into the general population)

Hauteville
30-11-14, 21:04
It's because most of the medieval muslims were not original arabs but more berbers. But also the berber marker E-m81 distributions has really very small in Sicily. Regarding Crete i don't know if their J1 is ancient neolithic or by the muslims (also Crete was ruled by the medieval muslims) but i think is more neolithic.

joeyc
30-11-14, 21:15
J1 in Italy is generally evenly distributed and found in areas that were never conquered by moors. There is no big differences between the areas that was under fatmid and aglabide rule to regions that were not.

Spain has been conquered by moors for double the time and the J1 percentages are not any higher then those of Italy, so I doubt that there has been any significant J1's admixture from during this period. I believe that J1 had a better chance on entering during the neolithic (as Lebrok mentioned), some through the Greek immigration (as Hautville mentioned and well documented settlements) also through Phoenician and maybe some more during the Roman period through slavery. (again, I am not familiar from which part of the empire the Roman slaves were and how they were absorbed into the general population)

:innocent:

Italy was never conquered by Moors, unlike Iberia who was under Moorish rule for many centuries. Granada was occupied for more than 800 years for example.

That plus mixing with Phoenicians, Sephardi Jews, African slaves, Guance Berbers...

J1 in Italy is highest on the Appennines, just like G2a. On the coastal areas it's usually 2-3% of the total lineages.

Maleth
30-11-14, 21:24
It's because most of the medieval muslims were not original arabs but more berbers. But also the berber marker E-m81 distributions has really very small in Sicily. Regarding Crete i don't know if their J1 is ancient neolithic or by the muslims (also Crete was ruled by the medieval muslims) but i think is more neolithic.

If not mistaken Muslims (Moors) took Crete in short periods before the conquest of the Andalusians exiles which lasted approximately some 140 years. As you mentioned those would be more E-M81 then J1, so I presume the J1 in Crete is also an ancient input. Malta like Sicily has only 2% of North African Input but like some parts of Italy 8% of J1 compared to 21% J2

Hauteville
30-11-14, 21:29
:innocent:

Italy was never conquered by Moors, unlike Iberia who was under Moorish rule for many centuries. Granada was occupied for more than 800 years for example.

That plus mixing with Phoenicians, Sephardi Jews, African slaves, Guance Berbers...

J1 in Italy is highest on the Appennines, just like G2a. On the coastal areas it's usually 2-3% of the total lineages.
Indeed. Continental Italy excluding very few parts like Bari, Taranto, Reggio Calabria and Amantea were never conquered by the medieval muslims. However Melith muslims remained in Sicily more or less two centuries like Crete (excluding Catania and some towns in Messina province were never conquered by them according to some historians). Andalusia was ruled 781 years. It's a bit different.

Maleth
30-11-14, 21:36
:innocent: Italy was never conquered by Moors

Sicily (as part of todays Italy) was conquered for approximately 200 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Islam_in_southern_Italy

Hauteville
30-11-14, 21:56
Yes but Sicily (i am sicilian eh) do not represent all Italy like Andalusia or Algarve don't represent all Spain or Portugal or Crete all Greece. However Iberia was conquered almost all by the muslims Italy only Sicily and some coastal cities in continental south for very small time. The muslims left very few genetic traces in Sicily because they were expelled and you can read that in the "genetic history of Italy" in this website.

Maleth
30-11-14, 22:06
Yes but Sicily (i am sicilian eh) do not represent all Italy like Andalusia or Algarve don't represent all Spain or Portugal or Crete all Greece. However Iberia was conquered almost all by the muslims Italy only Sicily and some coastal cities in continental south for very small time. The muslims left very few genetic traces in Sicily because they were expelled and you can read that in the "genetic history of Italy" in this website.

Indeed, I think we are saying the same thing


J1 in Italy is generally evenly distributed and found in areas that were never conquered by moors. There is no big differences between the areas that was under fatmid and aglabide rule to regions that were not.

Spain has been conquered by moors for double the time and the J1 percentages are not any higher then those of Italy, so I doubt that there has been any significant J1's admixture from during this period. I believe that J1 had a better chance on entering during the neolithic (as Lebrok mentioned), some through the Greek immigration (as Hautville mentioned and well documented settlements) also through Phoenician and maybe some more during the Roman period through slavery. (again, I am not familiar from which part of the empire the Roman slaves were and how they were absorbed into the general population)

Angela
01-12-14, 05:42
It's difficult to tie J1 to any specific migration because most studies which have been done do not divide it into subclades. This study attempted to provide some better resolution for J1 in Italy, but the total number of samples for each area is very small. Plus, they only broadly divided it into M267 and the "Arabic" J1e.

These are the different areas sampled in the study:
http://r1b.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/U152_Only_Map.png

For what it's worth, these are the results, with M267 percentages first and then those for J1e, now known as J1c3.

I Piemonte/E.Lombardia/W.Liguria: 1.2/.6

II N.E.Italy: 1.4/0

III Bologna: 0/6.9

IV E.Liguria/Toscana: 1.6/1.6

V C.Italy: 2.6/1.3

VI Mainland S.Italy: 2.5/1.5

VII Sicily: 2.1/4.3

VIII Sardinia: 0/2.4

Now the M267 could definitely be better refined into subclades, but I don't think I'd be too out of line to say that perhaps this group reflects the older, more "Neolithic" like lineages, or at least the northern Near East lineages. (I wish that Boattini had dated the two clusters the way that they did the other y lineages, but there was probably too little J1 to do a decent job.)

In looking for a pattern in those results, all I can see is that northern Italy runs from 0 to a range from 1.2 to 1.6%. Once you get to Central Italy you go up about 1% to 2.1 to 2.6%.

In terms of "J1e" I don't see much of a pattern at all to be honest. Most of Italy is in a range from 0 to .6, 1.3, 1.5, 1.6, which are really distinctions without a difference. The exceptions are a slightly higher 2.4 in Sardinia, 4.3 in Sicily, and then a bizarre 6.9 in Bologna.

I don't know whether J1e was in a geographical position at the right time to have participated in the Neolithic migrations, because my understanding is that their major expansion took place during the Bronze Age, but I'm not an expert on J1e so someone correct me if I'm wrong. (There is also the conclusion in the 2009 Chiaroni et al paper that "J1c3 spread with pastoral nomads who would migrate based on rainfall patterns from the Zagros (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagros) and Taurus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus_Mountains) mountains to the Levant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant), with the first such migrations occurring during the neolithic period." I'm not quite sure if that means they might have formed part of the Neolithic migrations to Europe or not. )

Turning to the Muslim invasions in 900 AD, they never got anywhere near Bologna so I think this is some sort of founder effect that arrived under who knows what circumstances, or it's just a function of the small sample. (As Maciamo points out in the general Haplogroup J1 section, the distribution of J1 is indeed spotty in Europe, so it's difficult to draw conclusions) The Sicilian numbers may not be representative either, but even if they are, the absolute level is much smaller than many people might have predicted. Even if we combine these figures with the similarly low E-M81 "Berber" clade numbers, and given that this was a male mediated elite invasion, the total North African/Middle Eastern footprint from this particular event is smaller than I had thought, and so those reports of Frederick II engaging in rather brutal ethnic cleansing seem to be borne out.

oreo_cookie
01-12-14, 07:42
The Sicilian numbers may not be representative either, but even if they are, the absolute level is much smaller than many people might have predicted. Even if we combine these figures with the similarly low E-M81 "Berber" clade numbers, and given that this was a male mediated elite invasion, the total North African/Middle Eastern footprint from this particular event is smaller than I had thought, and so those reports of Frederick II engaging in rather brutal ethnic cleansing seem to be borne out.

This study here is the best guess we have as to J1 in Sicily. It's highly sporadically distributed, and the average figure of 4% is likely due to the fact that J1 is fairly high in some parts of the island (10% in Ragusa), around average frequency in most regions from 3-6%, but virtually absent in others (Sciacca, Piazza Armerina, and Mazara del Vallo). It probably exists in concentrated pockets, for whatever reason.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/

Maleth
01-12-14, 08:39
It's difficult to tie J1 to any specific migration because most studies which have been done do not divide it into subclades. This study attempted to provide some better resolution for J1 in Italy, but the total number of samples for each area is very small. Plus, they only broadly divided it into M267 and the "Arabic" J1e.

These are the different areas sampled in the study:
http://r1b.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/U152_Only_Map.png

For what it's worth, these are the results, with M267 percentages first and then those for J1e, now known as J1c3.

I Piemonte/E.Lombardia/W.Liguria: 1.2/.6

II N.E.Italy: 1.4/0

III Bologna: 0/6.9

IV E.Liguria/Toscana: 1.6/1.6

V C.Italy: 2.6/1.3

VI Mainland S.Italy: 2.5/1.5

VII Sicily: 2.1/4.3

VIII Sardinia: 0/2.4

Now the M267 could definitely be better refined into subclades, but I don't think I'd be too out of line to say that perhaps this group reflects the older, more "Neolithic" like lineages, or at least the northern Near East lineages. (I wish that Boattini had dated the two clusters the way that they did the other y lineages, but there was probably too little J1 to do a decent job.)

In looking for a pattern in those results, all I can see is that northern Italy runs from 0 to a range from 1.2 to 1.6%. Once you get to Central Italy you go up about 1% to 2.1 to 2.6%.

In terms of "J1e" I don't see much of a pattern at all to be honest. Most of Italy is in a range from 0 to .6, 1.3, 1.5, 1.6, which are really distinctions without a difference. The exceptions are a slightly higher 2.4 in Sardinia, 4.3 in Sicily, and then a bizarre 6.9 in Bologna.

I don't know whether J1e was in a geographical position at the right time to have participated in the Neolithic migrations, because my understanding is that their major expansion took place during the Bronze Age, but I'm not an expert on J1e so someone correct me if I'm wrong. (There is also the conclusion in the 2009 Chiaroni et al paper that "J1c3 spread with pastoral nomads who would migrate based on rainfall patterns from the Zagros (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagros) and Taurus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus_Mountains) mountains to the Levant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant), with the first such migrations occurring during the neolithic period." I'm not quite sure if that means they might have formed part of the Neolithic migrations to Europe or not. )

Turning to the Muslim invasions in 900 AD, they never got anywhere near Bologna so I think this is some sort of founder effect that arrived under who knows what circumstances, or it's just a function of the small sample. (As Maciamo points out in the general Haplogroup J1 section, the distribution of J1 is indeed spotty in Europe, so it's difficult to draw conclusions) The Sicilian numbers may not be representative either, but even if they are, the absolute level is much smaller than many people might have predicted. Even if we combine these figures with the similarly low E-M81 "Berber" clade numbers, and given that this was a male mediated elite invasion, the total North African/Middle Eastern footprint from this particular event is smaller than I had thought, and so those reports of Frederick II engaging in rather brutal ethnic cleansing seem to be borne out.

Thank you for explaining in more detail Angela. Also every time that a 'foreign' power takes over a region most people seem to assume that suddenly there is some kind of mass exodus from the conquerors land of origins to the conquered countries! Yes it does happen in some instances but only backed by war, over population or extreme climatic conditions that bring about famine. This was not the case during the Aghlabid and Fatmid periods in Southern Europe. The Maghrebese were very happy to stay in their homeland and often they have prospered into a Golden age of learning and good economy, so mass migrations were not necessary. It was the 'aboriginal' inhabitants that have converted to Islam during this period as the Caliphates imposed taxes and set unfavorable conditions to the Christians who for economic reasons would have converted in masses. This was reversed at around 1240 when the same was imposed on the Muslims and once again the masses converted to Christianity (again for economic and security reasons)

You always find a stubborn (minority I would say) hard core groups in both ways that do not convert for some reason or another, and these are the ones we know that would have been expelled or preferred to pay high taxes and so on, the mass population is driven and flow according to the more favorable economic situations when the inevitable happens.

At any rate DNA now is more or less proving the point.

Hauteville
01-12-14, 09:43
In Ragusa the percentage lowered in both Boattini et al. and Sarno et al.

Hauteville
01-12-14, 09:46
It's difficult to tie J1 to any specific migration because most studies which have been done do not divide it into subclades. This study attempted to provide some better resolution for J1 in Italy, but the total number of samples for each area is very small. Plus, they only broadly divided it into M267 and the "Arabic" J1e.

These are the different areas sampled in the study:
http://r1b.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/U152_Only_Map.png

For what it's worth, these are the results, with M267 percentages first and then those for J1e, now known as J1c3.

I Piemonte/E.Lombardia/W.Liguria: 1.2/.6

II N.E.Italy: 1.4/0

III Bologna: 0/6.9

IV E.Liguria/Toscana: 1.6/1.6

V C.Italy: 2.6/1.3

VI Mainland S.Italy: 2.5/1.5

VII Sicily: 2.1/4.3

VIII Sardinia: 0/2.4

Now the M267 could definitely be better refined into subclades, but I don't think I'd be too out of line to say that perhaps this group reflects the older, more "Neolithic" like lineages, or at least the northern Near East lineages. (I wish that Boattini had dated the two clusters the way that they did the other y lineages, but there was probably too little J1 to do a decent job.)

In looking for a pattern in those results, all I can see is that northern Italy runs from 0 to a range from 1.2 to 1.6%. Once you get to Central Italy you go up about 1% to 2.1 to 2.6%.

In terms of "J1e" I don't see much of a pattern at all to be honest. Most of Italy is in a range from 0 to .6, 1.3, 1.5, 1.6, which are really distinctions without a difference. The exceptions are a slightly higher 2.4 in Sardinia, 4.3 in Sicily, and then a bizarre 6.9 in Bologna.

I don't know whether J1e was in a geographical position at the right time to have participated in the Neolithic migrations, because my understanding is that their major expansion took place during the Bronze Age, but I'm not an expert on J1e so someone correct me if I'm wrong. (There is also the conclusion in the 2009 Chiaroni et al paper that "J1c3 spread with pastoral nomads who would migrate based on rainfall patterns from the Zagros (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagros) and Taurus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus_Mountains) mountains to the Levant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant), with the first such migrations occurring during the neolithic period." I'm not quite sure if that means they might have formed part of the Neolithic migrations to Europe or not. )

Turning to the Muslim invasions in 900 AD, they never got anywhere near Bologna so I think this is some sort of founder effect that arrived under who knows what circumstances, or it's just a function of the small sample. (As Maciamo points out in the general Haplogroup J1 section, the distribution of J1 is indeed spotty in Europe, so it's difficult to draw conclusions) The Sicilian numbers may not be representative either, but even if they are, the absolute level is much smaller than many people might have predicted. Even if we combine these figures with the similarly low E-M81 "Berber" clade numbers, and given that this was a male mediated elite invasion, the total North African/Middle Eastern footprint from this particular event is smaller than I had thought, and so those reports of Frederick II engaging in rather brutal ethnic cleansing seem to be borne out.
Thanks for sharing, i have seen that in Spain and Portugal is higher E-M81 than J1 so i think that medieval muslims were probably more berbers than arabs.

joeyc
01-12-14, 10:00
Bologna was an Etruscan city and Etruscans were pre-IndoEuropean neolitich farmers rich in J1, J2, G2a, etc....

J1 is also very scarse in North West Africa, apart for some hot spots. Italy never had large numbers of Jews and Crypto-Jews like Iberia had. In fact Jews never numbered few thousands of people out of milions, because Italy is the center of Catholic Church, which was extremely anti semitic.

Maleth
01-12-14, 10:26
Thanks for sharing, i have seen that in Spain and Portugal is higher E-M81 than J1 so i think that medieval muslims were probably more berbers than arabs.

Spain and Portugal have the highest instances of E-M81 in Europe, however like J1 its very much debatable wether this is due to medieval muslims (or moorish occupation). E-M81 has also been found in areas that were never conqured by the moors in North Spain, so its entry could be very much possible to be much prior to the Medieval period with a natural flow from North Africa due to the close proximity from the straights of Gibraltar which at some time during the Last glaciation period could have been much closer or even connected.

Hauteville
01-12-14, 10:29
Spain and Portugal have the highest instances of E-M81 in Europe, however like J1 its very much debatable wether this is due to medieval muslims (or moorish occupation). E-M81 has also been found in areas that were never conqured by the moors in North Spain, so its entry could be very much possible to be much prior to the Medieval period with a natural flow from North Africa due to the close proximity from the straights of Gibraltar which at some time during the Last glaciation period could have been much closer or even connected.
Or deportation of andalusian moors in the north of the country also. However only the deep north like north Asturias, north Cantabria and north Basque Country were never conquered by the muslims. And another interesting thing is that E-M81 seems much more common in west Andalusia than in the east part of the region. The hotspot of E-M81 is in the Pasiegos.

joeyc
01-12-14, 11:36
If not mistaken Muslims (Moors) took Crete in short periods before the conquest of the Andalusians exiles which lasted approximately some 140 years. As you mentioned those would be more E-M81 then J1, so I presume the J1 in Crete is also an ancient input. Malta like Sicily has only 2% of North African Input but like some parts of Italy 8% of J1 compared to 21% J2

Only scarsely populated areas on the Appennines and a couple of Etruscan cities have more than 5% of J1. Only a tiny percentage of that is the famous J1e which peaks in the Arabian peninsula, but originated in Anatolia. In most of Italy there is no J1e at all.

We don't know much about J2, but according to this recent paper there is enough J2 diversity in Italy to say that it's extremely ancient, probably even pre-neolitich.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30667-armenian-paper-on-R1-J2-and-G2

BTW the map needs some updates. Sarno et al. with a much greater number of samples found 0% of J1 in Lecce for example.

Hauteville
01-12-14, 11:48
Lecce is 5%, 0% is in Matera in Sarno et al.

Hauteville
01-12-14, 11:55
If not mistaken Muslims (Moors) took Crete in short periods before the conquest of the Andalusians exiles which lasted approximately some 140 years.
The sources said 150 years but not much less time compared to Sicily and Malta. Some cities of north eastern Sicily and Catania was never conquered by the muslims and excluding Palermo and Mazara del Vallo the rest of the island was conquered from 850 to 965-980 and eastern Sicily (specially Messina, Siracusa and Etna and Iblei cities) was reconquered by Giorgio Maniace in 1038, the last muslims remained in Noto in 1091 but the rest of the island were totally freed in 1063-1072. Today Scicli (Ragusa province) celebrates hunting of the saracens. So the medieval muslims ruled Sicily for two centuries circa. It was no a long rule as many people think.

Pax Augusta
01-12-14, 12:25
Only scarsely populated areas on the Appennines and a couple of Etruscan cities have more than 5% of J1.

Which ones?

Maleth
01-12-14, 20:00
The sources said 150 years but not much less time compared to Sicily and Malta. Some cities of north eastern Sicily and Catania was never conquered by the muslims and excluding Palermo and Mazara del Vallo the rest of the island was conquered from 850 to 965-980 and eastern Sicily (specially Messina, Siracusa and Etna and Iblei cities) was reconquered by Giorgio Maniace in 1038, the last muslims remained in Noto in 1091 but the rest of the island were totally freed in 1063-1072. Today Scicli (Ragusa province) celebrates hunting of the saracens. So the medieval muslims ruled Sicily for two centuries circa. It was no a long rule as many people think.

Correct, Malta (was part of Sicily at that time) was liberated same year as Noto. However Both Roger I and II of Hautville were very tolerant towards the Muslims and encouraged a cosmopolitan society. The Muslim expulsions / conversions did not start until 1220 under the rule of the Hohenstaufen (FredrickII)

Angela
01-12-14, 20:04
Thanks for sharing, i have seen that in Spain and Portugal is higher E-M81 than J1 so i think that medieval muslims were probably more berbers than arabs.

You might be interested in the English language book, "A History of Muslim Sicily" by Leonard C. Chiaroni.

I warn you it's very long, but it's the best analysis I've ever seen, in English or Italian, for this period of Sicilian and southern Italian history, and was very well received critically. One of the conclusions is that the majority of the people who actually settled in Sicily during that period were Berbers, that it was a male mediated invasion, and that the settlements were on a south/north cline.

As for the DiGaetano et al paper mentioned upthread, rather than being "the" resource about J1e in Sicily, it says almost nothing about it. (Just proof that one should actually read a paper before posting it.) This is the only excerpt I could find about J1 in the paper:

"Haplogroups common both to the European and Eurasian populations are present in Sicily. The most represented are R1b1c-M269 (24.58%), J2-M172 (15.25%) and E3b1a-M78 (11.44%). The co-occurrence of the Berber E3b1b-M81 (2.12%) and of the Mid-Eastern J1-M267 (3.81%) Hgs together with the presence of E3b1a1-V12, E3b1a3-V22, E3b1a4-V65 (5.5%) support the hypothesis of intrusion of North African genes.7 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/#bib7), 12 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/#bib12)"

The estimates for EM-81, at 2.12%, are actually much lower in this paper than in some others. As to the J1, as I tried to point out upthread, at the time this paper was written they still had not resolved the subclades of J1, so it's impossible to know how much of this actually arrived during the Muslim invasions versus prior periods. I think the same can be said for some of the non EM-81 "E" clades, i.e. I don't know how it can really be said whether they came to Sicily in Neolithic times, during the Metal Ages, or indeed during the Muslim Conquest. We're going to need more resolution of the "E" as well as the "J1" clades, and more sampling and testing for those clades in order to get a better handle on what actually happened. Some old Dna would help, too.

Hauteville
01-12-14, 20:06
Normans were called by Papal state for remove the muslims why they were tollerant? a totally falsity. Search the biography of Ibn Hamdis and Al Ballanubi for that and you can notice that most of the muslims left Sicily already during the norman period.

Maleth
01-12-14, 20:53
Normans were called by Papal state for remove the muslims why they were tollerant? a totally falsity. Search the biography of Ibn Hamdis and Al Ballanubi for that and you can notice that most of the muslims left Sicily already during the norman period.

Falsity? :confused2:

Cultural interactions[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture&action=edit&section=2)]
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/Arabischer_Maler_der_Palastkapelle_in_Palermo_002. jpg/220px-Arabischer_Maler_der_Palastkapelle_in_Palermo_002. jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Arabischer_Maler_der_Palastkapelle_in_Palermo _002.jpg)

Roger II depicted on an Arabic-style mosaic. Cappella Palatina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappella_Palatina).



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/TabulaRogeriana.jpg/220px-TabulaRogeriana.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TabulaRogeriana.jpg)

The Tabula Rogeriana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Rogeriana), drawn byAl-Idrisi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Idrisi) for Roger II in 1154, one of the most advanced ancient world maps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_world_maps). Note North is to the bottom of the map.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/Pluviale_of_the_holy_roman_empire.jpg/220px-Pluviale_of_the_holy_roman_empire.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pluviale_of_the_holy_roman_empire.jpg)

Coronation mantel of Roger II. It bears an inscription in Arabic with theHijri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijri_year) date of 528 (1133–1134).


An intense Norman-Arab-Byzantine culture developed, exemplified by rulers such as Roger II of Sicily, who had Islamic soldiers, poets and scientists at his court.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture#cite_note-12) Roger II himself spoke Arabic perfectly and was fond of Arab culture.[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture#cite_note-13) He used Arab troops and siege engines in his campaigns in southern Italy. He mobilized Arab architects to build monuments in the Norman-Arab-Byzantine style. The various agricultural and industrial techniques which had been introduced by Arabs into Sicily over the two preceding centuries were kept and developed, allowing for the remarkable prosperity of the Island.[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture#cite_note-14) For Europe, Sicily became a model and an example which was universally admired.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture#cite_note-15)
One of the greatest geographical treatises of the Middle Ages was written by the Andalusian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus)Muhammad al-Idrisi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Idrisi) for Roger, and entitled Kitab Rudjdjar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Rogeriana) ("The book of Roger").[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture#cite_note-Lewis.2C_p.148-16) The Norman Kingdom of Sicily (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Sicily) under Roger II was characterised by its multi-ethnic nature and religious tolerance.[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture#cite_note-17) Normans, Muslim Arabs, Byzantine Greeks, Longobards and "native" Sicilians lived in harmony.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture#cite_note-18)[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture#cite_note-19) He dreamed of establishing an Empire that would have encompassed Fatimid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatimid) Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt) and the Crusader states in the Levant.[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture#cite_note-20)
Although the language of the court was French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language) (Langue d'oïl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langues_d%27o%C3%AFl)), all royal edicts were written in the language of the people they were addressed to: Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin), Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Greek), Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language), or Hebrew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language).[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture#cite_note-21)Roger's royal mantel, used for his coronation (and also used for the coronation of Frederick II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_II,_Holy_Roman_Emperor)), bore an inscription in Arabic with the Hijri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijri_year) date of 528 (1133–1134).
Islamic authors would marvel at the tolerance of the Norman kings:

They [the Muslims] were treated kindly, and they were protected, even against the Franks. Because of that, they had great love for king Roger.
Ibn al-Athir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Athir)[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture#cite_note-22)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture

Hauteville
01-12-14, 21:00
You might be interested in the English language book, "A History of Muslim Sicily" by Leonard C. Chiaroni.

I warn you it's very long, but it's the best analysis I've ever seen, in English or Italian, for this period of Sicilian and southern Italian history, and was very well received critically. One of the conclusions is that the majority of the people who actually settled in Sicily during that period were Berbers, that it was a male mediated invasion, and that the settlements were on a south/north cline.

As for the DiGaetano et al paper mentioned upthread, rather than being "the" resource about J1e in Sicily, it says almost nothing about it. (Just proof that one should actually read a paper before posting it.) This is the only excerpt I could find about J1 in the paper:

"Haplogroups common both to the European and Eurasian populations are present in Sicily. The most represented are R1b1c-M269 (24.58%), J2-M172 (15.25%) and E3b1a-M78 (11.44%). The co-occurrence of the Berber E3b1b-M81 (2.12%) and of the Mid-Eastern J1-M267 (3.81%) Hgs together with the presence of E3b1a1-V12, E3b1a3-V22, E3b1a4-V65 (5.5%) support the hypothesis of intrusion of North African genes.7 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/#bib7), 12 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/#bib12)"

The estimates for EM-81, at 2.12%, are actually much lower in this paper than in some others. As to the J1, as I tried to point out upthread, at the time this paper was written they still had not resolved the subclades of J1, so it's impossible to know how much of this actually arrived during the Muslim invasions versus prior periods. I think the same can be said for some of the non EM-81 "E" clades, i.e. I don't know how it can really be said whether they came to Sicily in Neolithic times, during the Metal Ages, or indeed during the Muslim Conquest. We're going to need more resolution of the "E" as well as the "J1" clades, and more sampling and testing for those clades in order to get a better handle on what actually happened. Some old Dna would help, too.
I have read this book and another interesting book is the book by David Abulafia. Regarding other studies, the most recent studies (Boattini, Brisighelli and Sarno) show that E-M81 remained 2% circa (1,5% in Sarno) while E-V65 is no longer appeared and E-V12 and E-V22 were also found in other parts of Italy where never conquered by the muslims. I do not think that everything of those subclades are entered during those two centuries of muslim occupation.

Hauteville
01-12-14, 21:04
Falsity? :confused2:

Cultural interactions[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture&action=edit&section=2)]


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/Arabischer_Maler_der_Palastkapelle_in_Palermo_002. jpg/220px-Arabischer_Maler_der_Palastkapelle_in_Palermo_002. jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Arabischer_Maler_der_Palastkapelle_in_Palermo _002.jpg)

Roger II depicted on an Arabic-style mosaic. Cappella Palatina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cappella_Palatina).



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/TabulaRogeriana.jpg/220px-TabulaRogeriana.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TabulaRogeriana.jpg)

The Tabula Rogeriana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Rogeriana), drawn byAl-Idrisi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Idrisi) for Roger II in 1154, one of the most advanced ancient world maps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_world_maps). Note North is to the bottom of the map.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/Pluviale_of_the_holy_roman_empire.jpg/220px-Pluviale_of_the_holy_roman_empire.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pluviale_of_the_holy_roman_empire.jpg)

Coronation mantel of Roger II. It bears an inscription in Arabic with theHijri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijri_year) date of 528 (1133€“1134).


An intense Norman-Arab-Byzantine culture developed, exemplified by rulers such as Roger II of Sicily, who had Islamic soldiers, poets and scientists at his court.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture#cite_note-12) Roger II himself spoke Arabic perfectly and was fond of Arab culture.[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture#cite_note-13) He used Arab troops and siege engines in his campaigns in southern Italy. He mobilized Arab architects to build monuments in the Norman-Arab-Byzantine style. The various agricultural and industrial techniques which had been introduced by Arabs into Sicily over the two preceding centuries were kept and developed, allowing for the remarkable prosperity of the Island.[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture#cite_note-14) For Europe, Sicily became a model and an example which was universally admired.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture#cite_note-15)
One of the greatest geographical treatises of the Middle Ages was written by the Andalusian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus)Muhammad al-Idrisi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Idrisi) for Roger, and entitled Kitab Rudjdjar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_Rogeriana) ("The book of Roger").[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture#cite_note-Lewis.2C_p.148-16) The Norman Kingdom of Sicily (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Sicily) under Roger II was characterised by its multi-ethnic nature and religious tolerance.[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture#cite_note-17) Normans, Muslim Arabs, Byzantine Greeks, Longobards and "native" Sicilians lived in harmony.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture#cite_note-18)[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture#cite_note-19) He dreamed of establishing an Empire that would have encompassed Fatimid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatimid) Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt) and the Crusader states in the Levant.[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture#cite_note-20)
Although the language of the court was French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language) (Langue d'oïl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langues_d%27o%C3%AFl)), all royal edicts were written in the language of the people they were addressed to: Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin), Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Greek), Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language), or Hebrew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language).[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture#cite_note-21)Roger's royal mantel, used for his coronation (and also used for the coronation of Frederick II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_II,_Holy_Roman_Emperor)), bore an inscription in Arabic with the Hijri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijri_year) date of 528 (1133€“1134).
Islamic authors would marvel at the tolerance of the Norman kings:
They [the Muslims] were treated kindly, and they were protected, even against the Franks. Because of that, they had great love for king Roger.
Ibn al-Athir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Athir)[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture#cite_note-22)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture


It's also true that many muslims left Sicily and Malta after the norman conquest, Ibn Hamdis sang the praises of Sicily during his exile.

Angela
01-12-14, 21:37
I have read this book and another interesting book is the book by David Abulafia.I do not think that everything of those subclades are entered during those two centuries of muslim occupation.

Yes, Abulafia's book is also excellent. We are in agreement that all of these other subclades of "E", and the totality of the J1 shouldn't be summed with E-M81 to get an idea of the North African "Y" footprint in Sicily (and southern Italy).

Given that the autosomal input would be even smaller, this habit of finding "North African" looking people on every corner in Sicily is pretty nonsensical. Even someone like Zidane doesn't fit, and not because of pigmentation.

oreo_cookie
01-12-14, 22:18
It'd make sense that much of the North African input is ancient, because I know in Iberia, one of the regions with the highest amount of North African linked y-dna is Galicia (in northwest Spain), and this region was not under Moorish rule for very long compared to places in the south of Spain and Portugal. Same as in Sicily -- Ragusa (which that study had as 10% J1 and the highest on the island of the sampled regions) as not the main center of Moorish settlement, rather Palermo was.

Hauteville
02-12-14, 08:53
The historians say very often that Val di Noto and Val Demone (east Sicily) remained with majority greek speaking orthodox while the arab influence was strong in the Val di Mazara and especially in Palermo. In fact in the eastern Sicily has not monuments of arab origins, most of the mosques converted to church are in Palermo and in Trapani. As dialect the same, the arab words in the Val Demone and Val di Noto are generally agricultural terms.
http://i59.tinypic.com/23lfr14.jpg

Maleth
02-12-14, 10:41
:smile:
The historians say very often that Val di Noto and Val Demone (east Sicily) remained with majority greek speaking orthodox while the arab influence was strong in the Val di Mazara and especially in Palermo. In fact in the eastern Sicily has not monuments of arab origins, most of the mosques converted to church are in Palermo and in Trapani. As dialect the same, the arab words in the Val Demone and Val di Noto are generally agricultural terms.
http://i59.tinypic.com/23lfr14.jpg

I like these details of history as very often we just get the general big picture which there is so much more to it. Also many events happened beyond anyone's memory so we have to rely on passed down stories and writings. Of course we all know that these can get very distorted as time goes by and only promoted or shelved according the political situation of the day. When I was a kid we used to have a good chunk of Maltese history relating to all sorts of legends against the (arabs / Muslims) even called a Valley the Valley of the dogs (wied il Klieb), to were the last remaining Muslims were chased away. But all that today would be classified as Racist and xenophobic and not allowed anymore. To the contrary the curriculum of Maltese history is about the positive aspects of the Aglabide and Fhatmid rule, with great systems of water collection and irrigation and many Friuts introduced during the era, the encouragement of learing and new types of musical instruments we still use today (guitar example)....... Some also claim that the moorish occupaton has contributed to the European renaissance. Example It surely has nothing to do with the perversion of the ISIS psyche and regression we see today :smile:

Hauteville
02-12-14, 16:57
:smile:

When I was a kid we used to have a good chunk of Maltese history relating to all sorts of legends against the (arabs / Muslims) even called a Valley the Valley of the dogs (wied il Klieb), to were the last remaining Muslims were chased away. But all that today would be classified as Racist and xenophobic and not allowed anymore. To the contrary the curriculum of Maltese history is about the positive aspects of the Aglabide and Fhatmid rule, with great systems of water collection and irrigation and many Friuts introduced during the era, the encouragement of learing and new types of musical instruments we still use today (guitar example)....... Some also claim that the moorish occupaton has contributed to the European renaissance. Example It surely has nothing to do with the perversion of the ISIS psyche and regression we see today :smile:
It's the same in Sicily, some cities some cities are celebrating the arrival of the normans and lombards and the banishment of arabs. However agriculture and science flourished during that period but mostly in Palermo. For example the cultivation of the oranges and lemons.

Semitic Duwa
05-12-14, 05:09
I think you guys are really missing the broader picture here: J1-M267 is almost as diverse as R1b, if not more. None of the peer-reviewed studies to date managed to provide a thorough analysis of its subclades, even though a considerable amount of progress has been made in regards to J1's phylogeny.

Until we get a thorough analysis of J1 subclades as well as aDNA from the Near East, we're bound to shoot blanks in the dark.

Ponto
20-12-14, 14:52
Yes you are right, but you cannot expect people to go from ignorance to PHD level of knowledge on J1 subclades particularly when it is uncommon in Europe, thought of as being foreign, Jewish, Arabian and so on. No-one says R1b is foreign as it originated in Asia well outside Europe and was not found in Europe until the late Neolithic and Metal ages. There is a lot of prejudice also. Your subclade is particularly Jewish, there are subclades of J1 that are Arabian in origin, any European with your subclade or an Arabian one definitely have a Jewish or Arabian paternal ancestor, but so far those Europeans are not common. I am going by the J1 project at FTDNA and the place of origin of the paternal ancestor.

Most studies are laughable using SNPs which are private or sticking with M267 or P58 as if they mean something. M267 is at least 16,000 years old or older, so there are many, many downstream SNPs, P58 is by one grain of sand on the beach of J1 phylogenetic tree and not particularly significant of anything.

dnoone
14-02-15, 14:03
I am in Sicily now. I want to collect samples here . Am J1 M267 myself. Trying to find some university or business to fund this project.

LeBrok
14-02-15, 16:53
I am in Sicily now. I want to collect samples here . Am J1 M267 myself. Trying to find some university or business to fund this project.
Good luck and keep us posted.

giuseppe rossi
26-04-15, 20:00
Crappy work.

You didn't add the data from Capell et al 2009.

http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u431/ArchHades/Genetic%20maps%20and%20distance%20tables/NorthAfricanNearEasternYChromosomesinSouthernEurop e.jpg

Also I've done the calculations and the frequency of J1 for Campania is 5.5% without the Capelli et al 2009 data, and 4.3% with the complete data, and not 6% as on there.

GeoFan
30-04-15, 01:04
Where in Boattini does this come from?



In Central Tuscany, 3 out of 41 samples were J1 (7%).

Angela
30-04-15, 01:56
Where in Boattini does this come from?



In Central Tuscany, 3 out of 41 samples were J1 (7%).



This is the data from this Boattini study for Central Italy:
Central Italy

In La Spezia-Massa, north-west Tuscany, 0 out of 24 samples are J1 (0%).

In Pistoia, central-north Tuscany, 1 out of 13 samples are J1e (7.5%).

In Grosetto-Siena, southern Tuscany, 3 out of 86 samples are J1 (3.5%), including one J1e sample.

In Foligno, central-east Umbria, 2 out of 37 samples are J1 (5.5%), including one J1e sample.

In Macerata, central-east Marche, 1 out of 40 samples are J1 (2.5%).

This is the problem with this study...good idea to use regional surnames, best resolution of clades we've seen so far for Italy, but perhaps because of budgetary constraints, impossibly small samples, so small that it's probably not a good idea to take the percentages all that seriously. That 7.5% figure comes from a grand total of 13 samples.

The averages Maciamo has computed are probably the best bet for now, although the subclade resolution or rather the lack of it means that in the case of Y dna "J1" it tells us almost nothing about when or with whom it arrived.

Pax Augusta
30-04-15, 02:18
Where in Boattini does this come from?



In Central Tuscany, 3 out of 41 samples were J1 (7%).



As Maciamo wrote, that's from Capelli et al. (2007) (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1055790306004866).

A different result from Capelli et al. (2009) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947089/):

in Central Tuscany, 2.4% of J1 was found out of 41 samples

in Tuscany-Latium border, 0% of J1 was found out of 79 samples



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947089/

giuseppe rossi
30-04-15, 10:12
Some of these numbers from Di Giacomo et al. (2002) (http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/italy.pdf), Brisighelli et al. (2012) (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0050794) and Capelli et al. (2007) (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1055790306004866), are wrong because Maciamo is adding up J1 and J* which are two different haplogroups.

Counting only J1 from Capelli et al. (2009) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947089/) and Boattini et al. (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441) :

The total frequency of J1 for Tuscany is 2% (5*100/243).

The total frequency of J1 for Campania is 3.5% (4*100/120).

GeoFan
06-05-15, 01:56
Thanks for the replies. I don't yet have enough credits to award any clout.

I am a little confused by the old notation J* and wonder, is it obsolete?

In Computer Science (database notation) and certain branches of Mathematics a * usually collects all variations, but I am sensing that this is not the case in Genetics?

GeoFan
06-05-15, 01:59
In Pistoia, central-north Tuscany, 1 out of 13 samples are J1e (7.5%).


My grandparents came from a tiny village (near Lucca and Pisa) within 50 KM of Pistoia,
and in PISTOIA my surname is found with very high frequency.

But according to the results with 23andMe, I am definitely J1 J-M267, not J1e.