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Maciamo
09-06-13, 18:48
Haplogroup I1 is a marker of Germanic migrations to Italy. The Ostrogoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks and Normans all left some I1 lineages behind them. The distribution of I1 is fairly homogeneous all over Italy, usually ranging from 1 to 5%. I had a look at the new study by Boattini et al. (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441) to see if hotspots could be identified. Let's also note that this is the first Italy-wide study that tests other I subclades than I2a1a (M26, former I1b2), and the first to confirm I1 percentages at a provincial level.

The first surprise came in Vicenza, where 17.5% of the male lineages belonged to I1, a proportion rarely seen outside Scandinavia or northern Germany. The other surprise were the 10.5% in Bologna.

Campobasso (14%) is the third hotspot, but that one was expected, as the city was founded by the Lombards, a tribe that originated in southern Sweden.

It's interesting to compare Campobasso, a Lombard city, with L'Aquila, a city founded in the 13th century by the Germans (mostly Swabians). While half of Campobasso's Germanic lineages are I1 (the rest being R1b-U106 and I2b1), L'Aquila completely lacks I1. Its Germanic lineages are one I2b1, one R1a, and one R1b-U106. This looks much more southwest German indeed. There is surely some I1, but the proportion within German lineages shouldnt exceed 10-15% if settlers came from southern Germany.

Apart from that, the frequencies observed were always within the expected range. I1 was completely absent from Sardinia and Catania, as in past studies.


North Italy

In Cuneo, south-west Piedmont, 1 out of 30 samples are I1 (3.5%).

In Savona/Genova, central Liguria, 2 out of 50 samples are I1 (4%).

In Como, north-west Lombardy, 1 out of 41 samples are I1 (2.5%).

In Brescia, north-east Lombardy, 1 out of 39 samples are I1 (2.5%).

In Vicenza, central-west Veneto, 7 out of 40 samples are I1 (17.5%).

In Treviso, central-east Veneto, 1 out of 30 samples are I1 (3.5%).

In Bologna, central Emilia-Romagna, 3 out of 29 samples I1 (10.5%).


Central Italy

In La Spezia-Massa, north-west Tuscany, 1 out of 24 samples are I1 (4%).

In Pistoia, central-north Tuscany, 0 out of 13 samples are I1 (0%).

In Grosetto-Siena, southern Tuscany, 4 out of 86 samples are I1 (4.5%).

In Foligno, central-east Umbria, 1 out of 37 samples are I1 (2.5%).

In Macerata, central-east Marche, 0 out of 40 samples are I1 (0%).


South Italy

In L'Aquila, Abruzzo, 0 out of 23 samples are I1 (0%).

In Campobasso, Molise, 4 out of 29 samples are I1 (14%).

In Benevento, Campania, 1 out of 36 samples is I1 (2.5%).

In Matera, Basilicata, 0 samples out of 25 are I1 (0%).

In Lecce, Apulia, 1 out of 39 samples is I1 (2.5%).

In Cosenza/Catanzaro/Crotone, Calabria, 1 out of 38 samples is I1 (2.5%).

In Catania, eastern Sicily, 0 out of 62 samples is I1 (0%).

In Ragusa, southeast Sicily, 1 out of 44 samples is I1 (2%).

In Agrigento, southwest Sicily, 1 out of 42 samples is I1 (2.5%)

In Olbia/Tempio/Nuoro, north-east Sardinia, 0 out of 40 samples is I1 (0%).

In Oristano, central-west Sardinia, 0 out of 42 samples are I1 (0%).


EDIT : I have added the hotspots on the I1 map.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I1.gif

zanipolo
09-06-13, 21:31
vicenza was the centre of 2 ruling "german" families. The Ezellini from augsburg bavaria and the scaliger from swabian lands.

they brought many "german" austrian people to north italy.....most came in the March of Treviso

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaligeri

The italians changed the name to la Scala family ( ladder ) but Scaliger is correct. their seat lay between verona and vicenza.
The ezellini lived at Bassano which sits under Vicenza province.

to conclude , we do not know if the goths, vandals etc brought this marker ..........let me know if you know more

nordicquarreler
09-06-13, 22:23
This may sound weird, but I'm surprised the I1 percentages in Sicily weren't higher. With the Viking and then Norman landings, I assumed I1 would be in the lower double digits near some of the ports. I think more I1 will be found in Sicily over time.

agnieu
09-06-13, 23:10
This may sound weird, but I'm surprised the I1 percentages in Sicily weren't higher. With the Viking and then Norman landings, I assumed I1 would be in the lower double digits near some of the ports. I think more I1 will be found in Sicily over time.

Depends on the places. The Norman presence was not homogeneous in Sicily, like for any other ethnic group. Sicily is a patchwork. Catania, Ragusa, Agrigento to me seems not to be traditional Norman places in Sicily. Palermo area and some other areas could have much more I1.

agnieu
09-06-13, 23:39
From Di Gaetano, Cerutti, Crobu et alter (2009)

I1-M253

Caccamo (Pa) 18,75 %
Trapani 9,09 %
Alcamo (Tp) 8,33 %
Piazza Armerina (En) 7,14 %

I1b1b M26

Caccamo (Pa) 6,25%
Sciacca (Ag) 3,57 %
Trapani 3,03 %

I1b2a M223
Caccamo (Pa) 6,25%

I M170
Alcamo 4,17%
Trapani 3,03%

Nobody1
09-06-13, 23:44
This may sound weird, but I'm surprised the I1 percentages in Sicily weren't higher. With the Viking and then Norman landings, I assumed I1 would be in the lower double digits near some of the ports. I think more I1 will be found in Sicily over time.

Look no further;

DiGaetano et al 2009
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/

West Sicily = 8.2% I1-M253
---
East Sicily = 1.75% I1-M253
------

Also Rootsi et al 2004 - found 8.8% Hg I (not specified sub-clades)
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/DNA.RootsiHaplogroupISpread.pdf

Equally Capelli et al 2005 - 8.5% Hg I (not specified sub-clades)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2009.00538.x/pdf

Most of the samples [96 out of 141] from Boattini et al 2013 were from the East of Sicily; hence only 1.4% Hg I1

Historically the Normans settled in the Western part of the Island, amongst the fiefdoms they conquered from the Saracens;
Agrigento (the other 45 samples) declined in the Middle ages, so obv. not much Normannic resettlement;

The East was granted to Lombard (Christian / Latin) settlers; hence 7.1% R1b U-152 -Boattini 2013

R1a [M17] in Sicily is also interesting:
5.7% -Boattini 2013 / 5.5% -DiGaetano 2009

also to note of course:
R1b-U106 = 5.6% -Boattini 2013

majority from Catania which was an important Staufer Castle, during the
Hohenstaufen (Swabian) Dynasty;

agnieu
10-06-13, 00:01
Most of the samples [96 out of 141] from Boattini et al 2013 were from the East of Sicily; hence only 1.4% Hg I1

Historically the Normans settled in the Western part of the Island, amongst the fiefdoms they conquered from the Saracens;
Agrigento (the other 45 samples) declined in the Middle ages, so obv. not much Normannic resettlement;

The East was granted to Lombard (Christian / Latin) settlers; hence 7.1% R1b U-152 -Boattini 2013

R1a [M17] in Sicily is also interesting: 5.7% -Boattini 2013 / 5.5% -DiGaetano 2009

Right, samples from Boattini et alter were from East, and South South-East Sicily.

Lombards could be both R1b U-152, and R1a, IMHO. Also U-106, maybe. North-East and Central-East Sicily (Valdemone) were granted to Lombards, you're right again. And two communities not more existing near Palermo.

Your reconstruction is right and proper (I'm by my paternal line a descendant of Lombards of Sicily).

Nobody1
10-06-13, 00:16
Right, samples from Boattini et alter were from East, and South South-East Sicily.

Lombards could be both R1b U-152, and R1a, IMHO. Also U-106, maybe. North-East and Central-East Sicily (Valdemone) were granted to Lombards, you're right again. And two communities not more existing near Palermo.

Your reconstruction is right and proper (I'm by my paternal line a descendant of Lombards of Sicily).

Wow, Lombards from Sicily; thats impressive
Ive read that you kept (in some comunes) the Old [Medieval] Gallo-Italic language for the last 1,000 years.

U-106 i would think is more German (Swabian) Staufer period

R1a could also be [I]Normannic, since R1a is significant in Norway;
But im not familiar with sub-clades since all studies state the R1a in Sicily is M-17?
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=results

Both U-106 and R1a is very scarce in North West Italy ,
on the other hand [B]U-152 is very dominant 32.2% -Boattini 2013 in NW Italy;

My specification: U-152 = Lombards / U-106 = Swabians[Germans] / I1-M253 = Normans [pos. also R1a]

agnieu
10-06-13, 00:49
Wow, Lombards from Sicily; thats impressive
Ive read that you kept (in some comunes) the Old [Medieval] Gallo-Italic language for the last 1,000 years.


That's true. In some comunes (San Fratello, Sperlinga, Nicosia...) it's still spoken our language, every day. My paternal line comes from one of these. We call our pais Safrareu or San Frareau, Sicilians call it Santu Frateddu. We're very jealous of our identity. Other Sicilians call us sometimes, in a derogatory manner, the Frenchies. But We don't enjoy any legal protection, as it happens for other linguistic minorities in Italy. In Italy linguistic minorities are very protected, except us and the Tabarchini people, Ligurian settlers who live in Carloforte in Sardinia and They still think to be in Liguria.

agnieu
10-06-13, 01:09
U-106 i would think is more German (Swabian) Staufer period

R1a could also be [I]Normannic, since R1a is significant in Norway;
But im not familiar with sub-clades since all studies state the R1a in Sicily is M-17?
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=results

Both U-106 and R1a is very scarce in North West Italy ,
on the other hand [B]U-152 is very dominant 32.2% -Boattini 2013 in NW Italy;

My specification: U-152 = Lombards / U-106 = Swabians[Germans] / I1-M253 = Normans [pos. also R1a]

Your specification seems fair. I have found on FTDNA a person from San Fratello (a true "gallo-italic" from San Fratello) that is U-106 and a person from Novara di Sicilia (another historical Lombard commune of Sicily) that is R1a. This is the reason why of my assumption about U-106 and R1a.

I Have discussed here

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27388-Normans-Gallo-Italics-and-Lombards-DNA-in-Sicily

nordicquarreler
10-06-13, 02:02
I've gone full-bore "Rainman" and have been researching the Scaliger and Ezellini lines. I plan to look into San Frareau next.

Fantastic thread. Thanks to the contributors and Maciamo for starting this one...

zanipolo
10-06-13, 02:58
I've gone full-bore "Rainman" and have been researching the Scaliger and Ezellini lines. I plan to look into San Frareau next.

Fantastic thread. Thanks to the contributors and Maciamo for starting this one...

Are you trying to find germanic links with I1 in italy ?

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da_Polenta

da Polenta from Romagna region ........origins german ...........seek english text

da Carrara from Padua ........origins tyrolese ( where tyrolese germans then ...unsure )

Savorgnan from Udine .........origins austrian

The only italian family from NEI I know is the Este family ................but I never really looked.

What are you trying to prove? ...........Genetic markers belong to NO nationality..........we are all mongrel people in Europe and elsewhere

nordicquarreler
10-06-13, 03:45
Not trying to prove anything Zanipolo. I agree we are mongrels.

I1 is a relatively uncommon line so I like to read up on it wherever it pops up.

**EDIT**
Also trying to link up to my I1 "tribe". DNA Tribes result pointed to a previously unknown autosomal link to Italy (Tuscany region) so I'm following that. Recently tested negative for Z140 at FTDNA-- which was surprising-- so I'm back to square one.

zanipolo
10-06-13, 05:01
Not trying to prove anything Zanipolo. I agree we are mongrels.

I1 is a relatively uncommon line so I like to read up on it wherever it pops up.

**EDIT**
Also trying to link up to my I1 "tribe". DNA Tribes result pointed to a previously unknown link to Italy (Tuscany region) so I'm following that. Recently tested negative for Z140 at FTDNA-- which was surprising-- so I'm back to square one.

so then, what subclade are you positive in ..........i.e the last one

nordicquarreler
10-06-13, 06:05
so then, what subclade are you positive in ..........i.e the last one

Unknown, only I1 at this point.

**EDIT**
To explain, I went for the Z140 test (which is pretty far downstream) because I found an almost identical surname line with a fairly close STR profile that was Z140 positive, so I was thinking that would make the most sense. Didn't pan out that way.

The FTDNA site does offer names that are closest to your STR 37 profile, and one that is almost an exact match tested positive for P109 so might test for that SNP next.

zanipolo
10-06-13, 07:59
Unknown, only I1 at this point.

**EDIT**
To explain, I went for the Z140 test (which is pretty far downstream) because I found an almost identical surname line with a fairly close STR profile that was Z140 positive, so I was thinking that would make the most sense. Didn't pan out that way.

The FTDNA site does offer names that are closest to your STR 37 profile, and one that is almost an exact match tested positive for P109 so might test for that SNP next.

use

http://predictor.ydna.ru/

it at least give you one subclade

or athey site since you are I
http://www.hprg.com/hapest5/

or even
http://members.bex.net/jtcullen515/HaploTest.htm

made especially for I people

nordicquarreler
10-06-13, 08:48
Took it:

100% = I-M253 (doesn't really help because I knew that part)

Then for subclades it says ND=40% and L22un1= 37% with everything else coming in at 5% or less. Does ND stand for not determined?

Maciamo
10-06-13, 09:37
This may sound weird, but I'm surprised the I1 percentages in Sicily weren't higher. With the Viking and then Norman landings, I assumed I1 would be in the lower double digits near some of the ports. I think more I1 will be found in Sicily over time.

The Normans settled mostly around Palermo, in north-west Sicily. This study did not include samples from northern Sicily. This case demonstrates just how big variations can be from one city/province to the next.

Maciamo
10-06-13, 09:45
vicenza was the centre of 2 ruling "german" families. The Ezellini from augsburg bavaria and the scaliger from swabian lands.

they brought many "german" austrian people to north italy.....most came in the March of Treviso

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaligeri

The italians changed the name to la Scala family ( ladder ) but Scaliger is correct. their seat lay between verona and vicenza.
The ezellini lived at Bassano which sits under Vicenza province.

Good to know. Thanks.



to conclude , we do not know if the goths, vandals etc brought this marker ..........let me know if you know more

There is no reason to believe that any Germanic people lacked I1.

I think that the four I1 samples from Campobasso is enough to prove that the Lombards had a remarkably high percentage of haplogroup I1. Among other Germanic haplogroups found in Campobasso were three R1b-U106 and one I2b1. The sample size is small, but judging from that, the Lombards appear to have had approximately 50% of I1, 37.5% of R1b, 12.5% of I2b1 and 0% of R1a. They originated in Scania, southern Sweden, where the haplogroup proportion is similar, except for the higher R1a and lower I2b1, as well as the presence of a minority of E, G, J and T which cannot be discerned from the native Italian one in Campobasso.

The Ostrogoths were the first Germanic tribe to invade Italy and the only one who had control over the whole peninsula. Their capital was in Ravenna, Romagna. Ferri et al. 2007 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0379073807005816%22) tested 98 individuals from Rimini and 65 from Valmarecchia, both near Ravenna. They found respectively 4% and 3% of I1+I2b, and 1% and 1.5% of R1a. They didn't test R1b subclades.

Some people on this forum have argued that the Goths were Slavic or at least a predominantly R1a tribe because of their Eastern European origins. Yet, all the places settled by the Visigoths (southern France + Iberia) and Ostrogoths (Italy) have more I1 (and R1b-S21) than R1a. This undeniably confirms the Scandinavian origins of the Goths.

As for the Normans, the presence of Germanic lineages where they settled in northern Sicily is blatant (although some Germanic lineages in Sicily could also be attributed to the Vandals).

Maciamo
10-06-13, 10:06
majority from Catania which was an important Staufer Castle, during the
Hohenstaufen (Swabian) Dynasty;

That surely explains why Catania's Germanic lineages are mostly R1b-U106 (9.5% of the total in Catania in this study), just like L'Aquila's, but have very little I1.


My specification: U-152 = Lombards / U-106 = Swabians[Germans] / I1-M253 = Normans [pos. also R1a]

I usually agree with what you write, but how on earth would you think that U152 is of Germanic origin (and Swedish at that), while it is almost absent from Scandinavia !?

agnieu
10-06-13, 11:31
I usually agree with what you write, but how on earth would you think that U152 is of Germanic origin (and Swedish at that), while it is almost absent from Scandinavia !?

I think that he is referring to Lombards from North-West Italy, because in medieval ages Lombard was an ethnonym, derived from Germanic Longobards, used to indicate all the people from Northern-Western Italy (today Piedmont, Lombardy, Liguria, Emilia).

What kind of haplogroups do the Germanic Lombards-Longobards could have?

zanipolo
10-06-13, 12:04
I think that the four I1 samples from Campobasso is enough to prove that the Lombards had a remarkably high percentage of haplogroup I1. Among other Germanic haplogroups found in Campobasso were three R1b-U106 and one I2b1. The sample size is small, but judging from that, the Lombards appear to have had approximately 50% of I1, 37.5% of R1b, 12.5% of I2b1 and 0% of R1a. They originated in Scania, southern Sweden, where the haplogroup proportion is similar, except for the higher R1a and lower I2b1, as well as the presence of a minority of E, G, J and T which cannot be discerned from the native Italian one in Campobasso.


IIRC the lombards are reffered to west germanic now , instead of east germanic due to linguistics. So these would be west german markers




Some people on this forum have argued that the Goths were Slavic or at least a predominantly R1a tribe because of their Eastern European origins. Yet, all the places settled by the Visigoths (southern France + Iberia) and Ostrogoths (Italy) have more I1 (and R1b-S21) than R1a. This undeniably confirms the Scandinavian origins of the Goths.



I believe the goths are baltic people originally, living between the Elbe river and samogitia as stated by ancient historians. They learnt germanic over time as neighbours of the suebi and vandili peoples ( most likely because of trade ).
They had the I1 marker plus R1a . The R1a gothic graves on the lower vistula river have never been found in scandinavia. There is continental I1 in old east germanic lands.
The ancient never called goths , germani ...or... never called germani , goths. 2 different people, 2 different cultures

Nobody1
10-06-13, 14:42
I usually agree with what you write, but how on earth would you think that U152 is of Germanic origin (and Swedish at that), while it is almost absent from Scandinavia !?

No,
not the Germanic Langobarden from the Migration era;

This is strictly Medieval, - Lombards as in North Italians from Medieval Lombardy
[fiefdom of Holy Roman Empire]

This [Medieval] Region -
http://imageshack.us/a/img571/6981/lombardy.png

Roger I of Hauteville married Adelaide del Vasto and granted
Lombard [Christians / Latins] settlers {from Medieval Lombardy} to settle in Eastern Sicily
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Renouncing.pnghttp://u152.org/images/stories/Lombard_Settlements_in_Sicily_002_thumbnail.gif

post# 6 -
The East was granted to Lombard (Christian / Latin) settlers; hence 7.1% R1b U-152 -Boattini 2013

post# 8 -
Both U-106 and R1a is very scarce in North West Italy ,
on the other hand U-152 is very dominant 32.2% -Boattini 2013 in NW Italy;

Thats my connection and logic; U-152 = Lombards {from Lombardy

---

The Medieval Lombards were always allies of the Normannic south; from the beginning of their conquest against the Byzantines; - Battle of Montemaggiore / Battle of Olivento

Ioannes Skylitzes - 11th cen. Byzantine
Michael was defeated and lost the better part of his army, he shamefully taking refuge in Cannae. Crippled like this he was none the wiser for his wound.....took back into battle his defeated forces together with the Pisidians and Lycaonians who make up the unit of the foederati and fell on the enemy at a place called Horai. Again he was severely defeated by the Franks who had now allied with themselves a considerable host of Italians living around the river Po and in the foothills of the Alps.

The Lombards of Sicily;

Prof. Will Seymour Monroe - Spell of Sicily: The Garden of the Mediterranean (1909)
The Lombards have also retained a degree of their original purity. They accompanied Adelaide of Montferrat, wife of Roger I, to Sicily and colonized at San Fratello, Nicosia, Randazzo, Sperligna, Capizzi, and elsewhere. They are tall, broad-shouldered, and fair, and more enterprising than most of the other inhabitants. Because of their keen monetary sense they are sometimes nicknamed "Sicilian Jews". The Lombard dialect is still spoken among them.

William Harrison De Puy - The Encyclopædia Britannica: Vol.XXII (1893)
In Sicily there were many nations all protected by the Sicilian king ; but there was no Sicilian nation.
Greek, Saracen, Norman, Lombard, and Jew could not be fused into one people; it was the boast of Sicily that each kept his laws [B]and tongue undisturbed. Such a state of things could live on only under an enlightened despotism; the discordant elements could not join to work out really free and national 'institutions.

William Agnew Paton - Picturesque Sicily (1897)
The latter curious town, situated high in the mountains, is inhabited by a people who speak a Lombard dialect, which testifies to their descent from the mercenaries who accompanied Roger in his first Sicilian campaign.


~1000 years later the Lombards still speak their Gallo-Italic language in Sicily;

Maciamo
10-06-13, 15:05
I believe the goths are baltic people originally, living between the Elbe river and samogitia as stated by ancient historians. They learnt germanic over time as neighbours of the suebi and vandili peoples ( most likely because of trade ).
They had the I1 marker plus R1a . The R1a gothic graves on the lower vistula river have never been found in scandinavia. There is continental I1 in old east germanic lands.
The ancient never called goths , germani ...or... never called germani , goths. 2 different people, 2 different cultures

If they were Baltic they would have a considerable percentage of N1c1 lineages. Where are these in Italy and Iberia ?

Maciamo
10-06-13, 15:06
No,
not the Germanic Langobarden from the Migration era;

This is strictly Medieval, - Lombards as in North Italians from Medieval Lombardy
[fiefdom of Holy Roman Empire]

...

~1000 years later the Lombards still speak their Gallo-Italic language in Sicily;

Ok, that makes sense now. ;-)

zanipolo
10-06-13, 20:31
If they were Baltic they would have a considerable percentage of N1c1 lineages. Where are these in Italy and Iberia ?

west-balts do not have N1c. it only came late in the area
but 1% of N1c was found in bosnia...........I have already indicated previously this

besides Ferri paper
98 from Rimini: R1b 51%, J2 17%, E3b1 11%, G 7%, E3b3a 4%, I* 4%, N3 2%
65 from Valmarecchia: R1b 46%, J2 15%, E3b1 18%, G 11%, I* 3%

has 2% of N in Rimini

other papers for the northern area are Pelotti 2008 and Turrina 2006

sparkey
10-06-13, 21:16
west-balts do not have N1c. it only came late in the area
but 6% of N1c was found in bosnia...........I have already indicated previously this

How late? Because it seems you're contradicted by high N1c frequencies in Old Prussian descendant claimants (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/PrussianYatviagian/).

zanipolo
10-06-13, 22:51
How late? Because it seems you're contradicted by high N1c frequencies in Old Prussian descendant claimants (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/PrussianYatviagian/).

this is the N in bosnia/serbia

At least some of that is probably N1-P189.2. Search the YHRD database for

DYS19 = 14
DYS389i = 14
DYS390 = 25
DYS391 = 10
DYS392 = 14
DYS393 = 14
DYS385 = 11,16
DYS438 = 10
DYS439 = 12

2 of 215 Novi Sad, Serbia [Serbian]
2 of 220 West Croatia, Croatia [Croatian]
1 of 31 Doboj-Banja Luka-Bjeljina, Bosnia and Herzegowina [Bosnian]
1 of 629 Eastern Slovakia, Slovakia [Slovakian]

zanipolo
10-06-13, 22:55
How late? Because it seems you're contradicted by high N1c frequencies in Old Prussian descendant claimants (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/PrussianYatviagian/).

ancient west-balts included the Pomeranians or as some historians state the area called hinter-Pomerania.

kashubians replaced the term Pomeranian in hinter-Pomerania . the kashubians eventually became slavic in language.

As far as I know the baltic prusi people, be them warmians, samians etc seemed to have emerged in the dark-ages .....maybe a name change from some form of aestian confederation ( aestii)

pyromatic
13-06-13, 05:01
It's interesting to see such a high frequency of I1, but it's even more interesting that essentially none of this is L22+; especially if we're arguing for a Swedish origin for some of it.

adamo
13-06-13, 05:15
How do you figure out what your dys is?

Maciamo
13-06-13, 21:16
It's interesting to see such a high frequency of I1, but it's even more interesting that essentially none of this is L22+; especially if we're arguing for a Swedish origin for some of it.

On the contrary what's interesting is that quite a few of the I1 samples in the south of Italy are L22. I1d-L22 has been found only in Vicenza and La Spezia in the north and Grosseto/Siena in the center, but in many places in the south (Benevento, Lecce, Agrigento, Ragusa/Siracusa). The samples from southern Sicily could be of Vandal origin, since the Normans settled mostly in northern Sicily. Benevento was a Lombard duchy. Lecce's I1d could be either Lombard or Norman.

agnieu
14-06-13, 01:26
On the contrary what's interesting is that quite a few of the I1 samples in the south of Italy are L22. I1d-L22 has been found only in Vicenza and La Spezia in the north and Grosseto/Siena in the center, but in many places in the south (Benevento, Lecce, Agrigento, Ragusa/Siracusa). The samples from southern Sicily could be of Vandal origin, since the Normans settled mostly in northern Sicily. Benevento was a Lombard duchy. Lecce's I1d could be either Lombard or Norman.

La Spezia (Liguria), Massa (Tuscany) and Grosseto/Siena (Tuscany) were also under a Lombard duchy (Langobardia Maior).

pyromatic
14-06-13, 22:27
On the contrary what's interesting is that quite a few of the I1 samples in the south of Italy are L22. I1d-L22 has been found only in Vicenza and La Spezia in the north and Grosseto/Siena in the center, but in many places in the south (Benevento, Lecce, Agrigento, Ragusa/Siracusa). The samples from southern Sicily could be of Vandal origin, since the Normans settled mostly in northern Sicily. Benevento was a Lombard duchy. Lecce's I1d could be either Lombard or Norman.

Is the sample size really large enough to draw that conclusion? From Table 2, it appears that there were only four I1-L22+ samples found of which three were P109+. Over all, only 16-17% of the I1 noted in Italy is L22+. In Area II, about 14-15% is L22+, and none in Area III is. From the public data at the FTDNA haplogroup I1 project, it appears that about 55% of the Swedish I1 is L22+. It may be that these Italian data are more consistent with a continental origin of its I1.

MOESAN
14-06-13, 22:44
Wow, Lombards from Sicily; thats impressive
Ive read that you kept (in some comunes) the Old [Medieval] Gallo-Italic language for the last 1,000 years.

U-106 i would think is more German (Swabian) Staufer period

R1a could also be [I]Normannic, since R1a is significant in Norway;
But im not familiar with sub-clades since all studies state the R1a in Sicily is M-17?
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=results

Both U-106 and R1a is very scarce in North West Italy ,
on the other hand [B]U-152 is very dominant 32.2% -Boattini 2013 in NW Italy;

My specification: U-152 = Lombards / U-106 = Swabians[Germans] / I1-M253 = Normans [pos. also R1a]

Nobody1, very often I find your posts interesting, so I respect your suggestions - but here I don"t understand why you could assign so easily a unique SNP marker to restricted tribes of same culture: LOmbards by their history had surely Y-I1+Y-R1a+Y-R1b-U106; Y-R1b-U152 seems to me as an aside SNP among true germanic people (maybe a Teutons-Cimbers accretion? or before that some rare BBs?) - and Norwegian Nordmen had the 3 submentioned SNP as all other genuine germanic tribes: only the respective %s can change in some proportion (U106 is heavy among all-R1b in Western Norway (roughly 66%) - if we speak about late "anglo-french Normands", we could find the same SNPs yet, but mixed with others SNP of celtic and pre-celtic origin -
if you speak about modern Lombards, and not Longobards, I see as beeing more Celts than Germanics, then yes I agree Y-R1b U152 (of eastern P-celtic and italic "origin") would be normally frequent enough - even bavarians are not supposed to have send too much R1b-U152 with them -
general remark: the percentages I red here thank to you all are interesting but about small samples; I need more and more!!!
have a good brain strom evening!

Nobody1
15-06-13, 01:05
if you speak about modern Lombards, and not Longobards, I see as beeing more Celts than Germanics, then yes I agree Y-R1b U152 (of eastern P-celtic and italic "origin") would be normally frequent enough - even bavarians are not supposed to have send too much R1b-U152 with them -
general remark: the percentages I red here thank to you all are interesting but about small samples; I need more and more!!!
have a good brain strom evening!

Yes medieval (modern) Lombards from North Italy; not the Germanic Langobarden of the migration era;
Its the same misunderstanding as with Maciamo, as i explained in post# 23

post #23 -


No,
not the Germanic Langobarden from the Migration era;

This is strictly Medieval, - Lombards as in North Italians from Medieval Lombardy
[fiefdom of Holy Roman Empire]

This [Medieval] Region -
http://imageshack.us/a/img571/6981/lombardy.png

Roger I of Hauteville married Adelaide del Vasto and granted
Lombard [Christians / Latins] settlers {from Medieval Lombardy} to settle in Eastern Sicily
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Renouncing.pnghttp://u152.org/images/stories/Lombard_Settlements_in_Sicily_002_thumbnail.gif

post# 6 -
The East was granted to Lombard (Christian / Latin) settlers; hence 7.1% R1b U-152 -Boattini 2013

post# 8 -
Both U-106 and R1a is very scarce in North West Italy ,
on the other hand U-152 is very dominant 32.2% -Boattini 2013 in NW Italy;

Thats my connection and logic; U-152 = Lombards {from Lombardy

---

The Medieval Lombards were always allies of the Normannic south; from the beginning of their conquest against the Byzantines; - Battle of Montemaggiore / Battle of Olivento

Ioannes Skylitzes - 11th cen. Byzantine
Michael was defeated and lost the better part of his army, he shamefully taking refuge in Cannae. Crippled like this he was none the wiser for his wound.....took back into battle his defeated forces together with the Pisidians and Lycaonians who make up the unit of the foederati and fell on the enemy at a place called Horai. Again he was severely defeated by the Franks who had now allied with themselves a considerable host of Italians living around the river Po and in the foothills of the Alps.

The Lombards of Sicily;

Prof. Will Seymour Monroe - Spell of Sicily: The Garden of the Mediterranean (1909)
The Lombards have also retained a degree of their original purity. They accompanied Adelaide of Montferrat, wife of Roger I, to Sicily and colonized at San Fratello, Nicosia, Randazzo, Sperligna, Capizzi, and elsewhere. They are tall, broad-shouldered, and fair, and more enterprising than most of the other inhabitants. Because of their keen monetary sense they are sometimes nicknamed "Sicilian Jews". The Lombard dialect is still spoken among them.

William Harrison De Puy - The Encyclopædia Britannica: Vol.XXII (1893)
In Sicily there were many nations all protected by the Sicilian king ; but there was no Sicilian nation.
Greek, Saracen, Norman, Lombard, and Jew could not be fused into one people; it was the boast of Sicily that each kept his laws [B]and tongue undisturbed. Such a state of things could live on only under an enlightened despotism; the discordant elements could not join to work out really free and national 'institutions.

William Agnew Paton - Picturesque Sicily (1897)
The latter curious town, situated high in the mountains, is inhabited by a people who speak a Lombard dialect, which testifies to their descent from the mercenaries who accompanied Roger in his first Sicilian campaign.


~1000 years later the Lombards still speak their Gallo-Italic language in Sicily;

Nobody1
15-06-13, 01:59
and Norwegian Nordmen had the 3 submentioned SNP as all other genuine germanic tribes: only the respective %s can change in some proportion (U106 is heavy among all-R1b in Western Norway (roughly 66%) - if we speak about late "anglo-french Normands", we could find the same SNPs yet, but mixed with others SNP of celtic and pre-celtic origin -

Thats correct, the Normans can also be a source of R1b U-106 across the Island;

The reason i linked U-106 to the Swabians[Germans] was strictly due to Boattini 2013 and its Catania result;

Catania = 11.5% R1bU-106 [52 samples] - Boattini 2013


Catania was the main stronghold of the Hohenstaufen in Sicily;
- main garrison of Henry VI - after the conquest of Markward von Annweiler and Heinrich von Kalden
- most important Staufer castle of Frederick II (next to Enna - Lombards)

Liber ad honorem Augusti - conquest of the Normannic Kingdom of Sicily by Henry VI of Hohenstaufen
http://warfare.atspace.eu/Medieval/Liber_ad_honorem_Augusti_th.htm

Swabian knight Diepold
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Diepold_von_Schweinspeunt.jpg/220px-Diepold_von_Schweinspeunt.jpg

LeBrok
15-06-13, 02:00
It amazes me how fast and "easily" Nobody1 can bring various citations to all historical subjects. Do you remember most of this an type off your head, or did you do all this homework before and have a great collection of them?
Regardless, you have great and informative posts.
Thanks

LeBrok
15-06-13, 02:04
I wrote Swabians[Germans] since Swabians (Svevi) was a synonym for all Germans in Normannic and Papal chronics;


That's interesting. I could never figure out why all slavic nations know Germans also as Swabi. Although Swabi is derogatory term.

Nobody1
15-06-13, 02:29
Thank you,

Being very interested in the Historical past and everything associated with it. I read as much as i can on it, and compiled my personal collection; but of course i remember what each topic is about;
Also thank god for the Internet; many libraries have been digitalised so its really easy now to just scout through them based on topic of interest;

this is just one example (in German)
http://www.mgh.de/home/aktuelles/

Nobody1
15-06-13, 02:58
and Norwegian Nordmen had the 3 submentioned SNP as all other genuine germanic tribes: only the respective %s can change in some proportion (U106 is heavy among all-R1b in Western Norway (roughly 66%) - if we speak about late "anglo-french Normands", we could find the same SNPs yet, but mixed with others SNP of celtic and pre-celtic origin

Yes, the Normans are also a source of R1b U-106 across the Island;

The reason i associated R1b U-106 with the Swabians[Germans] was strictly due to Boattini 2013 and its Catania result;

Catania = 11.5% R1b U-106 [52 samples] - Boattini 2013

Catania was one of the main strongholds of the Hohenstaufen in Sicily
- most important garrison of Henry VI - after its conquest by Markward von Annweiler and Heinrich von Kalden
- most important Staufer castle of Frederick II - next to Enna (Lombards)

Liber ad honorem Augusti - conquest of the Normannic Kingdom of Sicily by Henry VI
http://warfare.atspace.eu/Medieval/Liber_ad_honorem_Augusti_th.htm

Swabian knight Diepold
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Diepold_von_Schweinspeunt.jpg/220px-Diepold_von_Schweinspeunt.jpg

zanipolo
15-06-13, 05:38
Yes, the Normans are also a source of R1b U-106 across the Island;

The reason i associated R1b U-106 with the Swabians[Germans] was strictly due to Boattini 2013 and its Catania result;

Catania = 11.5% R1b U-106 [52 samples] - Boattini 2013

Catania was one of the main strongholds of the Hohenstaufen in Sicily
- most important garrison of Henry VI - after its conquest by Markward von Annweiler and Heinrich von Kalden
- most important Staufer castle of Frederick II - next to Enna (Lombards)

Liber ad honorem Augusti - conquest of the Normannic Kingdom of Sicily by Henry VI
http://warfare.atspace.eu/Medieval/Liber_ad_honorem_Augusti_th.htm

Swabian knight Diepold
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Diepold_von_Schweinspeunt.jpg/220px-Diepold_von_Schweinspeunt.jpg

you need to correct what you say,seems like youare saying swabians are lombards.
swabians are not longobards or normans, they would be more U-152 than U-106.

swabians are alemmani people , speaking alemani, basically people from south west germany - baden, freiburg and a bit of alsace

Nobody1
16-06-13, 20:26
seems like youare saying swabians are lombards. swabians are not longobards or normans, they would be more U-152 than U-106.

No;
Not with a single word have i equated the Lombards with the Swabians;
And its beyond me how you even get that idea;


swabians are not longobards or normans, they would be more U-152 than U-106.

No;
Even in the South of Germany and Austria; R1b-U106 is the most dominant R1b haplogroup;

Wirsching et al 2009 - frequency amongst only R1b samples:
http://www.freidok.uni-freiburg.de/volltexte/7512/pdf/DissMaximilianWilhelmWirschingOnline.pdf

Freiburg (Breisgau) = 61 R1b samples - p.60 corresponding with p.14
34.4% U106
22.9% U152
42.6% M343*

Niederstätter et al 2012 - frequency amongst all samples:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041885#pone.0 041885.s013

East Tyrol = 270 samples (total study) - Table S7
18.8% U106
12.5% U152


I suppose that clearly signals their dominant (also Linguistic & Historical attested) Germanic roots; over the before proto-Keltic/Keltic {Urnfield / Hallstatt / LaTene} R1b-U152 lineage (which is however still significant in those regions);


swabians are alemmani people , speaking alemani, basically people from south west germany - baden, freiburg and a bit of alsace

You forgot all of German Switzerland - Württemberg - Altschwaben Bavaria (Augsburg - Allgäu) - Vinschgau (South Tyrol) and Vorarlberg (Bundesland Österreich)

---

Strictly concerning Sicily
Of course, it is not a rule; its just a safe assumption on my part to connect the
Lombards with U152, Normans with I1-M253 (pos. also R1a), Swabians with U106 (post #39);
Needless to say those Hg's can also be assigned to one or the other group as well;
But in total thats my specification based on the specification of geography (historical settlements) given within the studies;

DiGaetano et al 2009 - West Sicily (I1-M253 = 8.2%) & Sicily total (R1a = 5.5%)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/?report=classic

Boattini et al 2013 - Catania specific (U106 = 11.5%) & Sicily total (U152 = 7.1%)
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441

zanipolo
16-06-13, 21:15
No;
Not with a single word have i equated the Lombards with the Swabians;
And its beyond me how you even get that idea;



No;
Even in the South of Germany and Austria; R1b-U106 is the most dominant R1b haplogroup;

Wirsching et al 2009 - frequency amongst only R1b samples:
http://www.freidok.uni-freiburg.de/volltexte/7512/pdf/DissMaximilianWilhelmWirschingOnline.pdf

Freiburg (Breisgau) = 61 R1b samples - p.60 corresponding with p.14
34.4% U106
22.9% U152
42.6% M343*

Niederstätter et al 2012 - frequency amongst all samples:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041885#pone.0 041885.s013

East Tyrol = 270 samples (total study) - Table S7
18.8% U106
12.5% U152


I suppose that clearly signals their dominant (also Linguistic & Historical attested) Germanic roots; over the before proto-Keltic/Keltic {Urnfield / Hallstatt / LaTene} R1b-U152 lineage (which is however still significant in those regions);



You forgot all of German Switzerland - Württemberg - Altschwaben Bavaria (Augsburg - Allgäu) - Vinschgau (South Tyrol) and Vorarlberg (Bundesland Österreich)

---

Strictly concerning Sicily
Of course, it is not a rule; its just a safe assumption on my part to connect the
Lombards with U152, Normans with I1-M253 (pos. also the R1a), Swabians with U106
Needless to say those Hg's can also be assigned to one or the other group as well;
But in total thats my specification based on the specification of geography (historical settlements) given within the studies;

DiGaetano et al 2009 - West Sicily (I1-M253 = 8.2%) & Sicily total (R1a = 5.5%)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/?report=classic

Boattini et al 2013 - Catania specific (U106 = 11.5%) & Sicily total (U152 = 7.1%)
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441

ok

But isn't the terminology of lombard slightly inaccurate?, ......lombard( longobard) to me would be italian based only, and the others referred to as Suebi. The longobards where part of the "Suebi confederation".....unlike the burgundians who where part of the "Vandili confederation".
The lombards have now been found to be ancient west-germanic than east-germanic.

Where did you assume than I-M253 is Norman?
There is I-M253 in NEI , ..........might be Norman prisoners after the failed invasion by Normans of Byzantine Albania......stopped by the venetian fleet.

IIRC Normans originated from norwegian vikings who once conquering Normandy changed their linguistic and culture identity to be accepted by the populace.

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/5992/ssuh.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/37/ssuh.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Nobody1
16-06-13, 23:08
But isn't the terminology of lombard slightly inaccurate?, ......lombard( longobard) to me would be italian based only, and the others referred to as Suebi.

Once again;

Lombards = Medieval North Italians from Lombardy;
- post #23 & post #36 -

Langobarden/Langobards = Germanic migration era -
settling within Gallia Cisalpina / later Lombardy;

Swabians = Medieval Germans from the Duchy of Swabia;
pos. from the Germanic Suebi; def. from the Germanic Alamanni;



Where did you assume than I-M253 is Norman?
There is I-M253 in NEI , ..........might be Norman prisoners after the failed invasion by Normans of Byzantine Albania......stopped by the venetian fleet.

My specification of the lineages U152 / U106 / I1-M253
was all strictly concerning Sicily (the Island of Sicily); nothing else;

---

I1-M253 in NE Italy is of course of a diff. source; most prob. of the Germanic Langobarden;

Langobarden place names in Northern Italy (mostly Po Valley)
http://www.terraorobica.net/Articoli/Storia/Fare%20Longobarde.htm

Fara = a Langobarden settlement from German fahren faramanni[/I]]
http://www.terraorobica.net/Images/Fara01.jpg


2 Farra d’Isonzo (GO) / 3 Farella (UD) / 4 Faris (UD) / 5 Farla (UD) / 6 Ca’ Fara (UD) / 7 Fara (PN) / 8 Farra d’Alpago (BL)
9 Farra di Mel (BL) / 10 Farénzena (BL) / 11 Farra di Feltre (BL) / 12 Fara di Cavolano (PN) / 13 Fara di Castel Roganzuolo (TV)
14 Farra di Soligo (TV) / 15 Farra di Valdobiàdene (TV) / 16 Farra di Paderno del Grappa (TV) / 17 Farronati (VI) / 18 Fara Vicentino (VI)
19 Fara di Montebello Vicentino (VI)


The longobards where part of the "Suebi confederation".....unlike the burgundians who where part of the "Vandili confederation".
The lombards have now been found to be ancient west-germanic than east-germanic.

We have to take this discussion to the thread
[B]Ancient DNA studies > Hundreds of ancient Lombards to be autosomally tested

I believe that the Langobarden were of the Vandalic stock; all sources and quotes in the other thread;

Nobody1
16-06-13, 23:13
IIRC Normans originated from norwegian vikings who once conquering Normandy changed their linguistic and culture identity to be accepted by the populace.

Norsemen in Normandy

Geoffrey of Malaterra - Book I
The land of Normandy is in Gaul, but it was not always called Normandy. Once it, and everything that appertained to it, was a part of the royal fisc of the King of the Franks, which was called by the general name of Francia; up to the time when a very brave leader called Rollo sailed boldly from Norway with his fleet to the Christian coast, accompanied by a strong force of soldiers. He ravaged Frisia and other maritime areas to the west, and finally reached the port where the River Seine flows into the sea. His great fleet sailed up this river into the more inland areas of Francia, and seeing how fertile this area was, more so than the other regions which they had crossed, he conceived a desire to seize it and take it for his own. For it is a land with rivers full of fish and woods full of wild animals, fertile and suitable for corn and other crops, with rich meadows to feed cattle, and thus very likely to excite the greedy. For this reason they landed on each bank and began to make the inhabitants of the province subject to his rule.

However, the king who was at that time ruling over Francia, I think it was Louis II was at first furious when he learnt that enemies had invaded the frontiers of his empire. He raised an army, marched against the enemy and appointed a duke to expel them from his lands. But then he realised that this could not be done without great casualties among his men. Fearing the uncertain events of war and wishing to spare bloodshed among his followers, he took counsel and concluded a peace treaty.
Accepting the service which they offered to him, he granted them the bulk of the land which they had invaded as a benefice.
The land which had been granted to them stretched [westwards] from the pagus of Ponthieu on its eastern border, and was next to the English Channel, which lay between it and Britain on its northern side and bounded its western extent also. On its south west frontier there was the pagus of Maine, and then the border went as far as Chartres, from Chartres it went to Abbeville and Beauvais, up to Ponthieu [once again].

Duke Rollo received this land outlined above from the King of the Franks as a hereditary fief; he then distributed it among his followers depending on how close he was to them, reserving the most valuable land for his own use.

There was a certain knight of quite distinguished family who possessed this village [Hauteville] by hereditary right from his ancestors. He was called Tancred, and he married a wife called Moriella, who was notable both for her birth and her good character, and as the years went by he received from her in lawful manner five sons, who were in the future to become counts: namely William, known as 'the Iron Arm', Drogo, Humphrey, Geoffrey and Serlo.

---

Normans in Southern Italy

John Bagnell Bury - The Cambridge Medieval History - Vol.V (1926)
The establishment of the Normans at Aversa was followed by a considerable influx of their compatriots, a tendency always warmly encouraged by Rainulf. The new arrivals were cordially received at his court, and very soon Aversa became the centre where all adventurers coming from Normandy could forgather; it was a kind of market where those in need of soldiers could engage them.

Among the adventurers who came thither between 1034 and 1087 were the sons of a petty Norman noble, Tancred de Hauteville, whose name was to receive enduring renown from the exploits of his descendants. Tancred, who held a fief of ten men-at-arms at Hauteville-la-Guicharde near Coutances, was not rich enough to bestow an inheritance on all his numerous children.

By his first wife, Muriella, he had five sons, William, Drogo, Humphrey, Geoffrey, and Sarlo; by his second, Fressenda, he had Robert Guiscard, Manger, William, Auvrai, Tancred, Humbert, and Roger, to say nothing of daughters.

The two eldest sons, William and Drogo, realising the modest future which awaited them if they remained under the paternal roof, resolved to seek their fortunes abroad, and started for Aversa.

---

William Iron Arm of Hauteville was the first Count of Apulia;

Robert Guiscard of Hauteville was the first Duke of Apulia and his brother Roger Bosso of Hauteville was the first count of Sicily;

Roger II of Hauteville was the first King of Sicily;

There is a legend that Tancred was descendant of Ogier the Dane;

zanipolo
16-06-13, 23:28
Once again;

Lombards = Medieval North Italians from Lombardy;
- post #23 & post #36 -

Langobarden/Langobards = Germanic migration era -
settling within Gallia Cisalpina / later Lombardy;

Swabians = Medieval Germans from the Duchy of Swabia;
pos. from the Germanic Suebi; def. from the Germanic Alamanni;




My specification of the lineages U152 / U106 / I1-M253
was all strictly concerning Sicily (the Island of Sicily); nothing else;

---

I1-M253 in NE Italy is of course of a diff. source; most prob. of the Germanic Langobarden;

Langobarden place names in Northern Italy (mostly Po Valley)
http://www.terraorobica.net/Articoli/Storia/Fare%20Longobarde.htm

Fara = a Langobarden settlement from German fahren faramanni[/I]]
http://www.terraorobica.net/Images/Fara01.jpg


2 Farra d’Isonzo (GO) / 3 Farella (UD) / 4 Faris (UD) / 5 Farla (UD) / 6 Ca’ Fara (UD) / 7 Fara (PN) / 8 Farra d’Alpago (BL)
9 Farra di Mel (BL) / 10 Farénzena (BL) / 11 Farra di Feltre (BL) / 12 Fara di Cavolano (PN) / 13 Fara di Castel Roganzuolo (TV)
14 Farra di Soligo (TV) / 15 Farra di Valdobiàdene (TV) / 16 Farra di Paderno del Grappa (TV) / 17 Farronati (VI) / 18 Fara Vicentino (VI)
19 Fara di Montebello Vicentino (VI)



We have to take this discussion to the thread
[B]Ancient DNA studies > Hundreds of ancient Lombards to be autosomally tested

I believe that the Langobarden were of the Vandalic stock; all sources and quotes in the other thread;

Farre ( fare ) means the making/creation .............same meaning as today

Link states, they entered via the julian mountains , crossed the isonzo river and set up a capital in cividale ( which is north of Udine) in the old lands of the venetics.

they took control ( fare ) of the towns as per your map link.

From the combined testimony of Strabo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strabo) (AD 20) and Tacitus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus) (AD 117), the Lombards dwelt near the mouth of the Elbe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbe) shortly after the beginning of the Christian era, next to the Chauci (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauci).[17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards#cite_note-Menghin.2C_15-17) Strabo states that the Lombards dwelt on both sides of the Elbe.[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards#cite_note-19) He treats them as a branch of the Suebi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suebi), and states that


Tacitus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus) also counted the Lombards as a remote and aggressive Suebian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suebi) tribe,

zanipolo
16-06-13, 23:43
Geoffrey of Malaterra - Book I
The land of Normandy is in Gaul, but it was not always called Normandy. Once it, and everything that appertained to it, was a part of the royal fisc of the King of the Franks, which was called by the general name of Francia; up to the time when a very brave leader called Rollo sailed boldly from Norway with his fleet to the Christian coast, accompanied by a strong force of soldiers. He ravaged Frisia and other maritime areas to the west, and finally reached the port where the River Seine flows into the sea. His great fleet sailed up this river into the more inland areas of Francia, and seeing how fertile this area was, more so than the other regions which they had crossed, he conceived a desire to seize it and take it for his own. For it is a land with rivers full of fish and woods full of wild animals, fertile and suitable for corn and other crops, with rich meadows to feed cattle, and thus very likely to excite the greedy. For this reason they landed on each bank and began to make the inhabitants of the province subject to his rule.

However, the king who was at that time ruling over Francia, I think it was Louis II was at first furious when he learnt that enemies had invaded the frontiers of his empire. He raised an army, marched against the enemy and appointed a duke to expel them from his lands. But then he realised that this could not be done without great casualties among his men. Fearing the uncertain events of war and wishing to spare bloodshed among his followers, he took counsel and concluded a peace treaty.
Accepting the service which they offered to him, he granted them the bulk of the land which they had invaded as a benefice.
The land which had been granted to them stretched [westwards] from thepagus of Ponthieu on its eastern border, and was next to the English Channel, which lay between it and Britain on its northern side and bounded its western extent also. On its south west frontier there was the pagus of Maine, and then the border went as far as Chartres, from Chartres it went to Abbeville and Beauvais, up to Ponthieu [once again].

Duke Rollo received this land outlined above from the King of the Franks as a hereditary fief; he then distributed it among his followers depending on how close he was to them, reserving the most valuable land for his own use.

There was a certain knight of quite distinguished family who possessed this village [Hauteville] by hereditary right from his ancestors. He was called Tancred, and he married a wife called Moriella, who was notable both for her birth and her good character, and as the years went by he received from her in lawful manner five sons, who were in the future to become counts: namely William, known as 'the Iron Arm', Drogo, Humphrey, Geoffrey and Serlo.

---

John Bagnell Bury - The Cambridge Medieval History - Vol.V (1926)
The establishment of the Normans at Aversa was followed by a considerable influx of their compatriots, a tendency always warmly encouraged by Rainulf. The new arrivals were cordially received at his court, and very soon Aversa became the centre where all adventurers coming from Normandy could forgather; it was a kind of market where those in need of soldiers could engage them.

Among the adventurers who came thither between 1034 and 1087 were the sons of a petty Norman noble, Tancred de Hauteville, whose name was to receive enduring renown from the exploits of his descendants. Tancred, who held a fief of ten men-at-arms at Hauteville-la-Guicharde near Coutances, was not rich enough to bestow an inheritance on all his numerous children.

By his first wife, Muriella, he had five sons, William, Drogo, Humphrey, Geoffrey, and Sarlo; by his second, Fressenda, he had Robert Guiscard, Manger, William, Auvrai, Tancred, Humbert, and Roger, to say nothing of daughters.

The two eldest sons, William and Drogo, realising the modest future which awaited them if they remained under the paternal roof, resolved to seek their fortunes abroad, and started for Aversa.

---

William Iron Arm of Hauteville was the first Count of Apulia;

Robert Guiscard of Hauteville was the first Duke of Apulia and his brother Roger Bosso of Hauteville was the first count of Sicily;

Roger II of Hauteville was the first King of Sicily;

There is a legend that Tancred was descendant of Ogier the Dane;

whats this about? ...........i refer to origins of normans prior to invasion of gallic lands

nordicquarreler
17-06-13, 01:25
Thanks for these informative posts Nobody1. I'm interested to hear your explanation of the earlier Kings of Denmark circa 700 A.D. That seems to be a confusing era for some reason. (Might be a different thread however).

zanipolo
17-06-13, 01:30
Thanks for these informative posts Nobody1. I'm interested to hear your explanation of the earlier Kings of Denmark circa 700 A.D. That seems to be a confusing era for some reason. (Might be a different thread however).

did you use the tery robb link which i presented which has a spot to place you ID ( if you did a 67 marker check ) and it will work out your subclade?

LeBrok
17-06-13, 05:58
Thanks for these informative posts Nobody1. I'm interested to hear your explanation of the earlier Kings of Denmark circa 700 A.D. That seems to be a confusing era for some reason. (Might be a different thread however).

Did you hear about Dark Ages? :)
Not many could write, and even fewer papers that was written survived.

It went like this: Poverty, cold climate, low population, lack of food, poverty, little ice age, black death, decline, poverty, failed corps, expensive paper, expensive education, poverty, ...... you'd better pray for global warming. :)) Ice age is disaster, even the little one.

nordicquarreler
17-06-13, 06:18
Did you hear about Dark Ages? :)
Not many could write, and even fewer papers that was written survived.

It went like this: Poverty, cold climate, low population, lack of food, poverty, little ice age, black death, decline, poverty, failed corps, expensive paper, expensive education, poverty, ...... you'd better pray for global warming. :)) Ice age is disaster, even the little one.

True, true.

But what I was specifically referring to here is what seems like a subtle avoidance from the rest of "Dark Age" Europe to recognize the Norse Kings-- aka Sea-Kings. I recently watched a history professor speak (from Tulane University here in the U.S. I think-- will site name and exact video later) and he seemed to put the Viking/Norse leaders in a seperate catagory... even stated that they as a people were searching for a "real" king. I must admit I find this difficult to accept.

LeBrok
17-06-13, 06:26
True, true.

But what I was specifically referring to here is what seems like a subtle avoidance from the rest of "Dark Age" Europe to recognize the Norse Kings-- aka Sea-Kings. I recently watched a history professor speak (from Tulane University here in the U.S. I think-- will site name and exact video later) and he seemed to put the Viking/Norse leaders in a seperate catagory... even stated that they as a people were searching for a "real" king. I must admit I find this difficult to accept.
I feel the same, because there is so little information that survived till today. There is too much speculation on some historians part.
Probably at this moment we know more from excavation than from surviving documents.
Damn you dark ages!

apulomilan
25-09-13, 20:38
The other surprise were the 10.5% in Bologna.

Not a suprise.

Bologna was occupied by Lombards, in a period in which its population was at the minimum level and all lived inside the small difensive walls (the legend says that the guardians on the defensive walls could speak each other from opposite points).

The Lombards settled in eastern part of the town; the western part was so spoiled to be named "civitas rupta".

Some suggests that the difference between dialect spoken in the eastern and the western part of the town underlined by Dante in the "De Vulgari Eloquentia" is due to the predominant presence of Lomabards in the eastern part.

adamo
25-09-13, 20:54
The Boii would have settled Bologna and given it their name having arrived from the Germany-Czech area, they probably had a form of R1b OTHER than u152.

MOESAN
27-09-13, 22:39
Wow, Lombards from Sicily; thats impressive
Ive read that you kept (in some comunes) the Old [Medieval] Gallo-Italic language for the last 1,000 years.

U-106 i would think is more German (Swabian) Staufer period

R1a could also be [I]Normannic, since R1a is significant in Norway;
But im not familiar with sub-clades since all studies state the R1a in Sicily is M-17?
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=results

Both U-106 and R1a is very scarce in North West Italy ,
on the other hand [B]U-152 is very dominant 32.2% -Boattini 2013 in NW Italy;

My specification: U-152 = Lombards / U-106 = Swabians[Germans] / I1-M253 = Normans [pos. also R1a]

in western Norway, Y-R1b-U106 is significant (and even; some R1b-L21 and R1b-U152) if not overwhelming, and inland Germanics have a lot of Y-I1 + some Y-R1a
and the Normans that took foot in Sicily were a mix with Francs and Gallo-Romans (Breton noble MEN among them) -they were no more the genuine Vikings

adamo
28-09-13, 10:43
The Normans that invaded Sicily came from Normandie,France; they would have had a typically French genetic profile. I suspect R1b P312 clades (definite u152 predominance) with very low % infusion of Scandinavian (I1) and Germanic (R-S21) elements. According to the general region of France they came from, I think they were predominantly R-u152 wi a strong I1 substratum and rare R-S21 or other P312 lineages. The Normans of Normandy have nothing to do with the Norwegians, nor with the LOMBARDS that migrated from southern Sweden/Denmark to north Italy and then campaigned south.

adamo
28-09-13, 10:47
Over all, any and all subclades of hg I are rare on the italian peninsula. I1a,I2a,I2b; they've all left minimal genetic impact on Italy I and all it's subclades, along with R1a (at leas that we can see of today but there's pretty solid evidence R1a never mass migrated to Italy, Sardinia's Balkanic genetic profile with it's own subtype of I2a is a mystery though.

MOESAN
29-09-13, 17:43
The Normans that invaded Sicily came from Normandie,France; they would have had a typically French genetic profile. I suspect R1b P312 clades (definite u152 predominance) with very low % infusion of Scandinavian (I1) and Germanic (R-S21) elements. According to the general region of France they came from, I think they were predominantly R-u152 wi a strong I1 substratum and rare R-S21 or other P312 lineages. The Normans of Normandy have nothing to do with the Norwegians, nor with the LOMBARDS that migrated from southern Sweden/Denmark to north Italy and then campaigned south.

I agree for the most you say but don't be to affirmative concerning Normands of France: in a (scarce enough, it's true) sample of Normandy they found 11% of Y-I1, as high as in Flanders-Artois, more than in Elsass/alsace (10%) or Brittany (8%) - I believe old north coasts of France HAD MORE Y-I1 at some stage of History (the times of the Sicily conquest) so, let's be carefull in affirmations - on the phenotypical side, Normands show easily more 'nordic'like than Bretons anthan the majority of other Frenchmen too
concerning France, I wait (hope helps to live) some more studies on larger samples: I would not be surprised if Brittany would show a bit less Y-I1 (I suppose it is denser in East than in West) in future...

tjlowery87
26-10-13, 16:32
Are you trying to find germanic links with I1 in italy ?

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da_Polenta

da Polenta from Romagna region ........origins german ...........seek english text

da Carrara from Padua ........origins tyrolese ( where tyrolese germans then ...unsure )

Savorgnan from Udine .........origins austrian

The only italian family from NEI I know is the Este family ................but I never really looked.

What are you trying to prove? ...........Genetic markers belong to NO nationality..........we are all mongrel people in Europe and elsewhere

If you cannot prove migrations and ancient ethnic groups,than what is the point of ydna research?

adamo
26-10-13, 21:03
The Lombards were tied neither to R1b P-312 nor R1b-u106 but probably to I1. I1 in italy peaks in friulia (20%) Trentino alto (20%) and Molise (15%). 18% of men from Vicenza Veneto are hg I1.

adamo
26-10-13, 21:04
They may have had a minor u-106 substratum; u106 is present in a maximum of 2-3% of north-italian lineages. I1 is found at 5%.

MOESAN
03-11-13, 19:00
let's wait more subregional data - even at regional level, there were different histories - I suppose R-U106 as a whole is stronger in some places of N-Italy (I think germanic tribes had a strpnger impact in N-E Italy than in central N-Italy whereauthoctones, Ligurians and Celts was denser

marcellus
16-02-17, 22:25
Hi,

I tested positive for M253! And it goes on like this: Z140 > Y6231 > Y7277 > Y10890*
With the particularity of having marker DYS426=10
The latest ancestor I could track born around 1770, was from Molise, Campobasso!

Sile
25-04-18, 20:22
I have just found out my grandfather - maternal side ydna
I1-L759 (I1-CTS10140, I1-CTS10338)
Can anyone tell me about this marker....origins or other
.
.
other positive SNPs
CTS10349+,CTS242+,CTS2496+,CTS6009+,CTS6009+,F3750 +,FB1791+,FGC42+,L119+,L1249+,L81+,M212+,M47+,M537 9+,M5449+,P14+,P40+,PF1451+,PF1636+,PF2704+,PF6503 +,S27128+,S27131+,S27190+,S27238+,S27247+,S27445+S 27475+,S27531+,S27562+,S27574+,S27605+,S27644+,S27 653+,S27774+,V63+

I1a3_Young
26-04-18, 20:12
I have just found out my grandfather - maternal side ydna
I1-L759 (I1-CTS10140, I1-CTS10338)
Can anyone tell me about this marker....origins or other
.
.
other positive SNPs
CTS10349+,CTS242+,CTS2496+,CTS6009+,CTS6009+,F3750 +,FB1791+,FGC42+,L119+,L1249+,L81+,M212+,M47+,M537 9+,M5449+,P14+,P40+,PF1451+,PF1636+,PF2704+,PF6503 +,S27128+,S27131+,S27190+,S27238+,S27247+,S27445+S 27475+,S27531+,S27562+,S27574+,S27605+,S27644+,S27 653+,S27774+,V63+

What is your source? That looks like a basic call for plain I1 without any further detail.

Sile
27-04-18, 07:18
I have just found out my grandfather - maternal side ydna
I1-L759 (I1-CTS10140, I1-CTS10338)
Can anyone tell me about this marker....origins or other
.
.
other positive SNPs
CTS10349+,CTS242+,CTS2496+,CTS6009+,CTS6009+,F3750 +,FB1791+,FGC42+,L119+,L1249+,L81+,M212+,M47+,M537 9+,M5449+,P14+,P40+,PF1451+,PF1636+,PF2704+,PF6503 +,S27128+,S27131+,S27190+,S27238+,S27247+,S27445+S 27475+,S27531+,S27562+,S27574+,S27605+,S27644+,S27 653+,S27774+,V63+
further clarification of my grandmother brother line
I1d - L22
CTS6009
.
yfull = Y4734
I-Y4734Y4735 * Y4736 * Y4737+22 SNPsformed 2400 ybp, TMRCA 1100 ybp

I-Y4734*CTS6009 * YFC094309 * YFC085690+10 SNPs

I1a3_Young
27-04-18, 17:27
further clarification of my grandmother brother line
I1d - L22
CTS6009
.
yfull = Y4734
I-Y4734Y4735 * Y4736 * Y4737+22 SNPsformed 2400 ybp, TMRCA 1100 ybp

I-Y4734*CTS6009 * YFC094309 * YFC085690+10 SNPs

Looks very Scandinavian, almost exclusively so. What geographic location did your great uncle come from? Straya?

Sile
27-04-18, 18:50
Looks very Scandinavian, almost exclusively so. What geographic location did your great uncle come from? Straya?

http://www.baseggio.net/index.php?cc=38&cp=list&chosen_mode=show_person&chosen_item=763&chosen_column=baseggio_first&chosen_orderby=idrow&show_columns=b,c,d&query=baseggio_bornplace=19

Merlengo in Veneto italy ..........his father Modesto and his grandfather Gian Battista b. 1793 likewise

I1a3_Young
27-04-18, 21:36
http://www.baseggio.net/index.php?cc=38&cp=list&chosen_mode=show_person&chosen_item=763&chosen_column=baseggio_first&chosen_orderby=idrow&show_columns=b,c,d&query=baseggio_bornplace=19

Merlengo in Veneto italy ..........his father Modesto and his grandfather Gian Battista b. 1793 likewise

That is interesting. Do you have STR results? I checked Yfull and the FTDNA I1 project and couldn't find another sample anywhere close to Italy. Your paternal line could have been a rare addition to whatever party moved to northern Italy.

Sile
28-04-18, 00:03
That is interesting. Do you have STR results? I checked Yfull and the FTDNA I1 project and couldn't find another sample anywhere close to Italy. Your paternal line could have been a rare addition to whatever party moved to northern Italy.
not yet....I will try to get them ............do you need them for something?
.
.
Do you mean , you could not find any I1 or L22
this person is close to Merlengo
N15793 Rugo, ca. 1500, Tramonti di Sotto, Friuli-VG Italy
.
.
BTW..its not my paternal line......but the paternal line of my grandmother .who is noted Maria in the link

I1a3_Young
28-04-18, 02:52
not yet....I will try to get them ............do you need them for something?
.
.
Do you mean , you could not find any I1 or L22
this person is close to Merlengo
N15793 Rugo, ca. 1500, Tramonti di Sotto, Friuli-VG Italy
.
.
BTW..its not my paternal line......but the paternal line of my grandmother .who is noted Maria in the link

I was only looking at the known locations of SNP "Y4734"

Usually the Gothic I1 YDNA is found in Poland, the Balkans, Italy, Iberia. Y4734 is so far noted as Scandinavia and England (going to guess Viking spread). No reports of it in Germany, Netherlands, or other continental countries.

Perhaps your grandfather's line was a transplant between 1000 and 1500 AD for some reason. Or, it could have been a more unique marker compared to the rest of the Ostrogothic YDNA that ended up in Italy.

Sile
28-04-18, 19:54
I was only looking at the known locations of SNP "Y4734"

Usually the Gothic I1 YDNA is found in Poland, the Balkans, Italy, Iberia. Y4734 is so far noted as Scandinavia and England (going to guess Viking spread). No reports of it in Germany, Netherlands, or other continental countries.

Perhaps your grandfather's line was a transplant between 1000 and 1500 AD for some reason. Or, it could have been a more unique marker compared to the rest of the Ostrogothic YDNA that ended up in Italy.

The ostrogoths arrived in italy before the lombards and stayed over 200 years with their capital being Ravenna ...not far from venice today.

Sile
30-04-18, 08:34
That is interesting. Do you have STR results? I checked Yfull and the FTDNA I1 project and couldn't find another sample anywhere close to Italy. Your paternal line could have been a rare addition to whatever party moved to northern Italy.

i found out over the W/E the STR ( i need to visit her to confirm)

13 23 14 10 14-14 11 14 12 12 11 29

so, it should be Il- P109 Y4734

I1a3_Young
02-05-18, 15:38
i found out over the W/E the STR ( i need to visit her to confirm)

13 23 14 10 14-14 11 14 12 12 11 29

so, it should be Il- P109 Y4734

That's not enough STRs to get good matches for relations. I will stick to the highest chance of being a more rare Ostrogothic Y line.

Sile
04-05-18, 20:41
That's not enough STRs to get good matches for relations. I will stick to the highest chance of being a more rare Ostrogothic Y line.

There is only one "close" match I found ........a person living in Marche italy with surname Zianni
Zianni in the old and current venetian language is the same as Giovanni in Italian ( english John )

I do agree with you that it is not enough

whirly
20-08-18, 00:55
Hi,

I tested positive for M253! And it goes on like this: Z140 > Y6231 > Y7277 > Y10890*
With the particularity of having marker DYS426=10
The latest ancestor I could track born around 1770, was from Molise, Campobasso!

I'm also: I1-Z60>Z140>Z141>FGC22406>Y7279>Y10890>A1994

With DYS426=10 which is pretty rare in this area of the Z140+ branch.

I've been paired with 3 other folks who are within this or deeper subclades, all from Sicily.

As far as paternal line, I'm stuck in the VA, USA 1783. I'm currently testing for A1922 which has a Hungarian lineage. So I'm looking for a back door through migration out of Sicily to Hungary then to Switzerland to semi-confirm my probable lineage. It looks like the closest of the I-Y10890 STR matches might be 16-21 generations back which would put the separation about 400-600ybp.

LMK if I'm on the wrong path.

I1a3_Young
24-08-18, 00:24
I'm also: I1-Z60>Z140>Z141>FGC22406>Y7279>Y10890>A1994

With DYS426=10 which is pretty rare in this area of the Z140+ branch.

I've been paired with 3 other folks who are within this or deeper subclades, all from Sicily.

As far as paternal line, I'm stuck in the VA, USA 1783. I'm currently testing for A1922 which has a Hungarian lineage. So I'm looking for a back door through migration out of Sicily to Hungary then to Switzerland to semi-confirm my probable lineage. It looks like the closest of the I-Y10890 STR matches might be 16-21 generations back which would put the separation about 400-600ybp.

LMK if I'm on the wrong path.

Are you ordering single SNPs? What company are you testing with?

whirly
26-08-18, 03:11
I was tested by FTDNA for Y10890, A1994 and A1922. Y10890 was ordered first and came back positive. I ordered the A1994 and A1922 from FTDNA after getting the Y10890 results. But that was a month ago and there is still another month to go before they say they can provide the results. I subsequently tested with YSEQ, on a suggestion from the admin of the I-Z140 Project, for A1994 for which I have already tested positive and A1974 which is one of the SNP's for HG-A1922 and am waiting on the results for that one. YSEQ is much faster and less expensive, if you only need a couple of SNP's, than FTDNA, even with having to do the cheek swab again via international mail.

I'm still in the mirror house here but decided to forgo the shotgun approach (BIG Y) and ask for pointers. It seems to have worked out well for me so far. Now all I have to do is find more folks with my HG who are not in Italy. Not that I'm adverse to the Italians, I grew up as a WASP in an Italian neighborhood and have lots of friends there, but my documented paper trail is not pointing to Sicily unless there was an Italian migration into the Americas prior to 1780. It's a long shot but if you don't go down the road you'll never know where it leads.