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Maciamo
10-06-13, 13:23
Here is the breakdown of J2 subclades by province based on the recent study by Boattini et al. (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441).

North Italy

In Cuneo, south-west Piedmont, 2 out of 30 samples are J2 (6.5%), both J2a*.

In Savona/Genova, central Liguria, 7 out of 50 samples are J2 (14%), among which three J2a*, two J2a2-M67, and two J2a2a-M92.

In Como, north-west Lombardy, 3 out of 41 samples are J2 (7.5%), among which one J2a, one J2a2-M67, and one J2b2-M241 (2.5%).

In Brescia, north-east Lombardy, 2 out of 39 samples are J2 (5%), both J2a*.

In Vicenza, central-west Veneto, 4 out of 40 samples are J2 (10%), all J2a*.

In Treviso, central-east Veneto, 5 out of 30 samples are J2 (16.5%), among which three J2a* and two J2a2.

In Bologna, central Emilia-Romagna, 1 out of 29 samples is J2b2 (3.5%).


Central Italy

In La Spezia-Massa, north-west Tuscany, no J2 (0%) was found out of 24 samples.

In Pistoia, central-north Tuscany, only one J2a (7.5%) sample was found out of 13 samples.

In Grosetto-Siena, southern Tuscany, only 9 out of 86 samples are J2 (10.5%), among which six J2a*, one J2a2, and two J2b2 (2.5%).

In Foligno, central-east Umbria, 9 out of 37 samples are J2 (24.5%), among which five J2a*, one J2a2a, two J2b, and one J2b2 (2.5%).

In Macerata, central-east Marche, 9 out of 40 samples are J2 (22.5%), among which five J2a, three J2a2 and one J2b2 (2.5%).


South Italy

In L'Aquila, Abruzzo, 3 out of 23 samples are J2 (13%), all of which were J2a*.

In Campobasso, Molise, 3 out of 29 samples are J2 (10.5%), among which one J2a*, and two J2a2a.

In Benevento, Campania, 5 out of 36 samples are J2 (14%), among which two J2a* and three J2a2.

In Matera, Basilicata, 5 samples out of 25 are J2 (20%), among which one J2a*, one J2a2, one J2a2a, and two J2b.

In Lecce, Apulia, 10 out of 39 samples are J2 (25.5%), including one J2*, two J2a*, one J2a2, three J2a2a, and three J2b2 (7.5%).

In Cosenza/Catanzaro/Crotone, Calabria, 8 out of 38 samples were J2 (21%), among which one J2*, five J2a*, one J2a2, and one J2b2 (2.5%).

In Catania, eastern Sicily, 9 out of 62 samples are J2 (14.5%), among which five J2a*, one J2a2, one J2a2a, and two J2b2 (3%).

In Ragusa/Siracusa, southeast Sicily, 11 out of 44 samples are J2 (25%), among which six J2a*, two J2a2, one J2a2a, and two J2b2 (4.5%).

In Agrigento, southwest Sicily, 7 out of 42 samples are J2 (16.5%), among which four J2a*, one J2a2, and two J2a2a.

In Olbia/Tempio/Nuoro, north-east Sardinia, 3 out of 40 samples are J2 (7.5%), among which two J2a* and one J2a2.

In Oristano, central-west Sardinia, 3 out of 42 samples are J2 (7%), all J2a*.



A few important changes compared to the data from previous studies:

- much more J2 in Liguria, Piedmont, Umbria and Basilicata.

- less J2 in Tuscany, Molise, Campania, central Apulia and eastern Sicily.

The lowest percentage of J2 is found in north-west Tuscany and Emilia, where R1b reaches its maximum frequency.

Contrarily to haplogroups G2a, J1 and T, which all peak along the Apennines, J2 is weakest in the Apennines, reinforcing my suspicion that J2 did not come during the Neolithic, but rather in the Bronze Age.

J2 is usually attributed to the Greek colonisation, like E1b1b. However the present distribution does not really support that, because of the high percentages found in Liguria and Piedmont on the one side, and from the Latium and southern Tuscany to Umbria, the Marches and coastal Veneto on the other side. It is undeniable that the Greeks brought more J2 to southern Italy, but it's not the whole story. J2 was obviously already well established all over coastal Italy by the time the Greeks arrived. The Etruscans were probably those who first brought J2 to Italy.

What is less easy to explain is the highly Greek admixture found in modern Liguria (very high J2 and E1b1b, and quite high G2a and J1), since the ancient Ligures were an Indo-European people related to the Celts and the Italics and were described as having auburn hair.

If that is not the case, then J2 could have been spread north by the Romans. Two studies found a very high frequency of J2 in South Latium, which is the homeland of Latin people. Therefore the original Romans must surely have had a similarly high frequency of J2 (alongside R1b-U152, G2a and perhaps also E1b1b). However since the Latium became a huge melting pot during the Roman Empire, the presence of J2 there could also be attributed to the numerous Near Eastern immigrants to Rome (Greeks, Syrians, Jews).

Overall, the distribution of J2 in Italy closely matches that of E1b1b, except in the southern Latium and the northern Apennines, where E1b1b is less prevalent.

Eldritch
10-06-13, 14:23
Lecce, which is the closest city to Greece have also the highest J2, makes sense.

Maciamo
10-06-13, 15:48
I have updated the J2 map. It is the map that was altered the most after this study along with G2a.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg

zanipolo
10-06-13, 20:47
I have updated the J2 map. It is the map that was altered the most after this study along with G2a.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg

have you included this paper from 2009 ...........it mostly centers on the balkans but has NEI
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/ydna.png

in regards to NEI from the paper above
it curious that the J2a* is at 13.5% ......making it number 3 ranking in NEI

other curiousities
R1a1 at 10.4%
L2 at 4.5%
T at 3.3%
E1b at 4.5%
G2a at 11.9%

and the 3 types of HG I
I1 at 9.0%
I2a1 at 9.4%
I2b1 at 1.5%

zanipolo
11-06-13, 00:42
I have updated the J2 map. It is the map that was altered the most after this study along with G2a.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg


J2a in NEI as per 2009 link

J2a* = 3.0%

J2a1b* = 6.0%

J2a1b1 = 1.5%

J2a1k = 3.0%

Maciamo
11-06-13, 09:16
have you included this paper from 2009 ...........it mostly centers on the balkans but has NEI
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/ydna.png

in regards to NEI from the paper above
it curious that the J2a* is at 13.5% ......making it number 3 ranking in NEI


Yes, that study is included. N-E Italy is in the colour range 10-15%. Actually the samples were from Trento, in Trentino (hust above Verona and Vicenza, for which we both have samples too).

zanipolo
11-06-13, 11:55
Yes, that study is included. N-E Italy is in the colour range 10-15%. Actually the samples were from Trento, in Trentino (hust above Verona and Vicenza, for which we both have samples too).

thanks

I know Trento, capital of South Tyrol in Italy

which brings me to a question - I assume as long as you lived in south tyrol for a period of time would qualify one for the survey...........i doubt they would have excluded "German/austrian" speakers ( in Italy)

here is south tyrol figures from a few years ago
....LV (Ladin, n=102, LVB Badiot n=56, LVG Gherdëin n=46): ~R1b 65%, ~G+I 13%, J 12% (LVB 5%, LVG 20%),L 6 % (LVB 9%, LVG 2%), ~E 3%, R1a 2% (LVB 0%, LVG 4%)

....GV (Vinschgau German, n=102, GVL Latsch n=52, GVU Laas/Prad n=50): ~R1b 42%, ~G+I 25%, J 14%, R1a 9% (GVL 12%, GVU 6%), ~E 8% (GVL 6%, GVU 10%), L 2%

....ITA (Ital.speakers BZ, n=59): ~R1b 37%, ~G+I 25%, J 15%, ~E 12%, ~K*5%, R1a 3%, L 2%

clearly J is prominent ( unsure which type)

total number tested 263

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v16/n1/full/5201906a.html

Nobody1
11-06-13, 15:35
Trento is not the capital of South Tyrol, and never was;

Bozen is the capital of South Tyrol and Innsbruck is the capital of the Historical Tyrol and modern Bundesland Tirol,
other major cities are Bruneck, Meran and Brixen (south); and Kufstein, Kitzbühel in the North with Lienz in the East;

Trient was the capital of the old Welsch (-Romanic) Tyrol;

The most interesting part about this study is the Neolithic admixture;

Thomas et al 2006
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v16/n1/full/5201906a.html

PS. most Italian speakers in Bozen are Southern Italians;
that Mussolini pumped up there during the 1920s and 30s;

Nobody1
11-06-13, 18:06
The story of Welsch-Tyrol and the Italianisation;


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1SOUh6pbfE

Val di Fassa is Rhaeto-Romanic
Val di Non is Gallo-Italic / Rhaeto-Romanic
Val di Sole & Giudicarie is Gallo-Italic
Fersental is German - Mocheno
The rest is Venetian and Gallo-Italic

Ladins (Rhaeto-Romanics) from Val di Fassa in Tracht
http://www.minoranzelinguistiche.provincia.tn.it/mappaMinoranze/pagina4.html
http://www.minoranzelinguistiche.provincia.tn.it/binary/pat_minoranze_2011/minoranze/TN%20FAMIGLIA%20LADINA.1143462138.jpg

Alexandros
03-08-13, 20:02
Thanks for the post. Very interesting study! Raises some questions (to me at least..):

1. From the evidence we have so far, it appears that the J2 haplogroup of mainland Greeks is predominantly J2b and only in Crete J2a is much more frequent than J2b. The question then is why the regions in Italy where it is hypothesized that Greeks brought the J2 haplogroup are predominantly J2a and not J2b? I am sure we agree that it is very unlikely that it was the Cretans that populated southern Italy during the Magna Grecia era. Maybe the Greeks brought all J2b there is in Italy and the J2a was brought by earlier migrations?

2. Has any study specifically tested the people speaking the Griko language in the regions of Reggio Calabria and Grecìa Salentina? To me these people are the strongest candidates for direct genetic heritage from the Greeks of Magna Grecia.

3. Is there any evidence of Phoenician or other Semitic admixture in South Italy, other than in Sardinia? If yes, then maybe this could provide an explanation on why southern Italians seem to cluster well with Cypriots in admixture analyses (i.e. both having ancient Greek and Levantine heritage).

Sile
03-08-13, 20:24
The story of Welsch-Tyrol and the Italianisation;


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1SOUh6pbfE

Val di Fassa is Rhaeto-Romanic
Val di Non is Gallo-Italic / Rhaeto-Romanic
Val di Sole & Giudicarie is Gallo-Italic
Fersental is German - Mocheno
The rest is Venetian and Gallo-Italic

Ladins (Rhaeto-Romanics) from Val di Fassa in Tracht
http://www.minoranzelinguistiche.provincia.tn.it/mappaMinoranze/pagina4.html
http://www.minoranzelinguistiche.provincia.tn.it/binary/pat_minoranze_2011/minoranze/TN%20FAMIGLIA%20LADINA.1143462138.jpg

where did you get the breakup?

I see you carry the Habsburg flag, are you austrian?

a link to the area in question
http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/South_Tyrol_%28%C3%96tzi%E2%80%99s_homeland%29_his torical_migrations

Sile
03-08-13, 20:29
Thanks for the post. Very interesting study! Raises some questions (to me at least..):

1. From the evidence we have so far, it appears that the J2 haplogroup of mainland Greeks is predominantly J2b and only in Crete J2a is much more frequent than J2b. The question then is why the regions in Italy where it is hypothesized that Greeks brought the J2 haplogroup are predominantly J2a and not J2b? I am sure we agree that it is very unlikely that it was the Cretans that populated southern Italy during the Magna Grecia era. Maybe the Greeks brought all J2b there is in Italy and the J2a was brought by earlier migrations?

2. Has any study specifically tested the people speaking the Griko language in the regions of Reggio Calabria and Grecìa Salentina? To me these people are the strongest candidates for direct genetic heritage from the Greeks of Magna Grecia.

3. Is there any evidence of Phoenician or other Semitic admixture in South Italy, other than in Sardinia? If yes, then maybe this could provide an explanation on why southern Italians seem to cluster well with Cypriots in admixture analyses (i.e. both having ancient Greek and Levantine heritage).

Where myceneans the marker you are looking for .?
they are in northern italy
http://www.academia.edu/1491061/Terramare_and_glass_Mycenaean_influence_in_Norther n_Italy_during_the_Late_Bronze_Age

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castellieri_culture

The Mycenaean civilization flourished during the period roughly between 1600 BC, when (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castellieri_culture)Helladic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helladic) culture in mainland Greece was transformed under influences from Minoan Crete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_civilization), and 1100 BC, when it perished with the collapse of Bronze-Age civilization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_collapse) in the eastern Mediterranean. The collapse is commonly attributed to the Dorian invasion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian_invasion), although other theories describing natural disasters and climate change have been advanced as well. The major Mycenaean cities were Mycenae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenae) and Tiryns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiryns) in Argolis, Pylos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pylos) in Messenia, Athens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athens) in Attica, Thebes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Thebes_%28Boeotia%29) and Orchomenus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchomenus_%28Boeotia%29) in Boeotia, and Iolkos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iolkos) in Thessaly. In Crete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crete), the Mycenaeans occupied Knossos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knossos). Mycenaean settlement sites also appeared in Epirus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus),[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece#cite_note-2) [3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece#cite_note-3) Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_%28region%29),[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece#cite_note-4)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece#cite_note-5) on islands in the Aegean Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_Sea), on the coast of Asia Minor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Minor), the Levant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant),[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece#cite_note-6) Cyprus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece#cite_note-7) and Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy).[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece#cite_note-8)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece#cite_note-9) Mycenaean artifacts have been found well outside the limits of the Mycenaean world: namely Mycenaean swords are known from as far away as Georgia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_%28country%29) in the Caucasus,[10

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece#cite_note-10)
The Dorians replaced the myceneans in the great bronze age migrations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castellieri_culture)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castellieri_culture)
Alpine J2 is said to have come from georgia/ossetia lands via the danube and drava rivers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castellieri_culture)


(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castellieri_culture)and another link below (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castellieri_culture)
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/11/69 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castellieri_culture)

adamo
03-08-13, 20:36
The Greeks DID populate southern Italy during magna Grecia. They brought E-V13 lineages to southern Italy and Sicily. In north-central Italy, for example, 10% of males are J2b, and 10% are J-M67. In the south, 5-8% of lineages are J-M92. There is M410 (J2a) present as well other than M67 or it's son M92. There's some E-M81 in Sicily occasionally, and G2a in southern Italy and Sardinia, but that arrived 15,000 years ago, during the Neolithic , the Etruscans may have brought some as well. The Etruscans definitely brought J2a from the Middle East, and some Greeks may have brought more downstream mutations of J2a as well.

adamo
03-08-13, 20:38
The terra are culture was Celtic man not proto-Etruscan, the terra are culture was the arrival of Central European danubians associated with urnfield culture that through the continuation of the succeeding villanovan culture, would turn into a slim percentage of the italics combined with the la tene culture Gauls who would invade from the western alps.

BakodiP
04-08-13, 13:13
The terra are culture was Celtic man not proto-Etruscan, the terra are culture was the arrival of Central European danubians associated with urnfield culture that through the continuation of the succeeding villanovan culture, would turn into a slim percentage of the italics combined with the la tene culture Gauls who would invade from the western alps.

As far as I know Terramare culture is way older than Celts, and the Halstatt culture.

adamo
04-08-13, 17:29
For you to read : Hence Luigi Pigorini regards the Terramare people as a lake-dwelling people who invaded the north of Italy in two waves from Central Europe (the Danube valley) at the end of the Stone Age and the beginning of the Bronze Age, bringing with them the building tradition which led them to erect pile dwellings on dry land, as well as Indo-European languages. These people he calls the Italici, to whom he attributes the Villanovan culture.