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iapodos
14-06-13, 10:13
I haven't been on this forum for a very long period, but I see that some ideas are unchangeable.

This is excerpt from eupedia's explanation of migrations of I2a haplogroup:

"The modern territory of I2a1a and I2a1b (Illyria, Italy, Sardinia, Mediterranean coast of France and Spain) matches the extent of the Neolithic Printed-Cardium Pottery culture (5000-1500 BCE), that is believed to have started with the arrival of E-V13 and G2a farmers and herders from Thessaly (northern Greece). It was followed by the Terramare culture (1500-1000 BCE) in the Bronze Age. The R1b Celto-Italic people are thought to have crossed the Alps and invaded the Italian peninsula around 1,000 BCE, replacing most of the indigenous I2a1, G2a and E-V13 people (especially in the northern half)."




There is no single evidence that haplogroup I2a were in Italy at all in Neolithic times. On the contrary, subclade analysis shows clearly that there is no single I2a subclade which originated in Italy.

Printed Cardium Pottery culture excavations in Catalonia, Spain and analysis of genetic material found there shows only haplogroup E-V13 with clear links with nowadays E-V13 populations os Italy and Balkan. So if we try to find genetic imprint of Printed Cardium Pottery culture it was probably E-V13 and not I2a.

All genetic studies on Italy till now shows that haplogroup I2a is among the rarest on peninsula, both the I2a M423 and M26. There is less of 0,5% of M423 in Italy and less than 1% of M26 on whole Italy except Sardinia where M26 is 40%.

As many geneticists find M423 Dinaric part high concentration in western Balkan is due to recent migrations of Slavs in 7th century, and as Nordvedt find M26 in Sardinia is the youngest clade among M26, younger than those M26 in Spain and especially of those M26 in France. So the Sardinian M26 was almost sure due to more or less recent migration from Iberian peninsula and Baleares. It correspon with its absence in continental Italy, Sicila and Corsica.

Considering all these facts, we can conclude that I2a never lived in Italy not in Paleolithic, not in Neolithic not in Bronze age not in Roman times, simply never. And that Printed Cardium Pottery Culture has nothing in common with I2a haplogroup.

Maciamo
14-06-13, 11:47
There is some evidence. The most important is the presence of I2a alongside G2a in Printed Cardium Pottery samples (http://www.pnas.org/content/108/24/9788) from southern France.

kamani
14-06-13, 12:21
There is some evidence. The most important is the presence of I2a alongside G2a in Printed Cardium Pottery samples (http://www.pnas.org/content/108/24/9788) from southern France.

which subclade of I2a is that? I suspect is I2a2.

iapodos
14-06-13, 12:34
There is some evidence. The most important is the presence of I2a alongside G2a in Printed Cardium Pottery samples (http://www.pnas.org/content/108/24/9788) from southern France.

I don't see that as an evidence, especially because of fact that I2a was present in France since Paleolithic on various sites. It was also found in culture of Armorican megalithism near Paris, and that culture have nothing in common with Printed Cardium Pottery, so it is logical that there was some aboriginal I2a in France when Printed Cardium Pottery people came.

If we see the map of Printed Cardium pottery culture expansion from Middle east to Balkans and then Italy then it is clear that M26 as much as other I2a couldn't come from that direction.

5893

I understand that your initial idea of connecting Printed Cardium and I2a was high percentage of I2a on the eastern Adriatic coast. Since that in meanwhile appeared a great amount of proves that it all that I2a is less than 2500 years old and that it probably came with Slavs in historical era, then I don't see the reason to insist on theory about neolithic presence of I2a in Italy and the extermination of it by R1b invaders. Or maybe those R1b invaders selectively killed only I2a members and other neolithic inhabitants left alive (G2a, E1b)?

Maciamo
14-06-13, 17:05
I didn't mean to say that I2a1 came from the Middle East during the Neolithic, but rather that it was picked up along the way (probably in northern Greece) and spread alongside G2a, E1b1b, J1 and T. I2* and I2a* most likely occupied most of continental Europe during the Mesolithic, but the specific branches I2a1a and I2a1b seem to have prospered thanks to the diffusion of farming.

I have modified the text on the Haplogroup I2 page to avoid further confusion.

adamo
14-06-13, 17:43
That map looks like how J2 spread to EuropeEurope

inver2b1
14-06-13, 18:04
I don't see that as an evidence, especially because of fact that I2a was present in France since Paleolithic on various sites. It was also found in culture of Armorican megalithism near Paris, and that culture have nothing in common with Printed Cardium Pottery, so it is logical that there was some aboriginal I2a in France when Printed Cardium Pottery people came.

If we see the map of Printed Cardium pottery culture expansion from Middle east to Balkans and then Italy then it is clear that M26 as much as other I2a couldn't come from that direction.

5893

I understand that your initial idea of connecting Printed Cardium and I2a was high percentage of I2a on the eastern Adriatic coast. Since that in meanwhile appeared a great amount of proves that it all that I2a is less than 2500 years old and that it probably came with Slavs in historical era, then I don't see the reason to insist on theory about neolithic presence of I2a in Italy and the extermination of it by R1b invaders. Or maybe those R1b invaders selectively killed only I2a members and other neolithic inhabitants left alive (G2a, E1b)?

Did they have 23andme back then?

Nobody1
14-06-13, 18:49
As many geneticists find M423 Dinaric part high concentration in western Balkan is due to recent migrations of Slavs in 7th century, and as Nordvedt find M26 in Sardinia is the youngest clade among M26, younger than those M26 in Spain and especially of those M26 in France. So the Sardinian M26 was almost sure due to more or less recent migration from Iberian peninsula and Baleares. It correspon with its absence in continental Italy, Sicila and Corsica.

Thats also something the new study has revealed;

Boattini et al 2013
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441

On the contrary, I2-M26 samples from Sardinia (SAR) cluster in a separate group than Iberians, suggesting a geographical neat separation between continental and Sardinian I2-M26 lineages.


DAPC analysis of STRs variation for the most frequent Y-chromosome haplogroups.
http://imageshack.us/a/img812/24/o4k.png

adamo
14-06-13, 19:04
I2a deffinetly has a Balkan-Slavic link...the question is wether these ancient indigenous balkanic a mixed with Slavs, or if they where transported along with Slavs in the first place to the region.

adamo
14-06-13, 19:05
More and more I believe I2a is a young group that came from Romania/Moldova region along with Ukrainian/Russian Slavs and penetrated the Balkans.,.

adamo
14-06-13, 19:09
Slovakia and ‚Äčthe Czech Republic for example have high diversity but low % of I2a.

Eldritch
14-06-13, 19:51
Slovakia and ‚Äčthe Czech Republic for example have high diversity but low % of I2a.
Look at this, http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2013-03/1364613803

Apparently this Polish man has been found ancestral of I2a1b Dinaric clade.