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Athelti Albanoi
17-06-13, 11:21
Hi,
I am a new member and have some questions about the European E1b
I am still new in this field and dont know really that much about haplogroups

Athelti Albanoi
17-06-13, 11:25
i found this site over google search and what made me curiose was this map-> eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg
after my research the only "study"which says that Albanians have around 40% E1b is from serbo-slavic Marijana Percic in "High-Resolution Phylogenetic Analysis of Southeastern Europe Traces Major Episodes of Paternal Gene Flow Among Slavic Populations" or are there any other sources to which you refer to for this map?

Athelti Albanoi
17-06-13, 11:27
i know that the European E1b splitted over 20.000 years ago from the African branch
but does it makes one who has the E1b have any conncetions with africans or are they total different?? :indifferent:

adamo
17-06-13, 12:00
The men of E-V13 have distant connections to north-Africans , Egyptians and Libyans in particular, as E-V13 is a mutation that occurred in the Balkans, downstream of E-M78. 25% of Albanian men are Eb ( which dominates non-negroid north-Africans: Egyptians, Libyans, Tunisians, Moroccans, Algerians) of which the vast majority of them are E-V13 ( moved from north-Africa to levant to the Balkans)

adamo
17-06-13, 12:00
A connection? Yes, albeit a distant one

nordicquarreler
17-06-13, 13:17
Adamo sums it up pretty accurately. We all can trace back to Africa eventually. Even those who have Neanderthal autosomal contributions can link these segments of their DNA to Africa (albeit with an approximate 600,000 year delay).

Athelti Albanoi
17-06-13, 13:18
The men of E-V13 have distant connections to north-Africans , Egyptians and Libyans in particular, as E-V13 is a mutation that occurred in the Balkans, downstream of E-M78. 25% of Albanian men are Eb ( which dominates non-negroid north-Africans: Egyptians, Libyans, Tunisians, Moroccans, Algerians) of which the vast majority of them are E-V13 ( moved from north-Africa to levant to the Balkans)

hmm i doubt this
on what are all this numbers based?

Athelti Albanoi
17-06-13, 13:22
Adamo sums it up pretty accurately. We all can trace back to Africa eventually. Even those who have Neanderthal autosomal contributions can link these segments of their DNA to Africa (albeit with an approximate 600,000 year delay).

at first when i saw this map i thought that the author is saying that Albanians are part black lol
but this seems to be vay more complicated

adamo
17-06-13, 14:23
Based on reality, E-V13 is son of non-negroid east north-African E-78 Clade, no their not black, negroids tend to be E1b1a, E1b1b is a "north-African" variety whereas E1b1a is sub-Saharan African, (E1b1A is found at high % in Nigerian, Senegalese, Gabonese etc. males) E1b1b is found in Libyans, Egyptians, Algerians, Tunisians etc.

adamo
17-06-13, 14:25
But again, it doesn't control how you look as everyone has a y-DNA AND mtdna mixture, but you get my point I guess

adamo
17-06-13, 14:32
Basically, E1b1a is found in sub-Saharan Africans and E1b1b is found in NORTH Africans, some few middle easterners and a few European countries ( Greeks, Albanians, Bulgarians, Serbs, some Italians, Portuguese and spaniards as well.) particularly in the "southern" Mediterranean zone, most of it in europe tends to be E-V13 spread by the Greeks (E-M78 arrived to extreme southern Balkans where E-V13 mutation took place) but there can be some E-M81 (Moroccan/Algerian/Tunisian E1b1b variety) in parts of Spain, Portugal and Sicily ( along with E-V13 as well in Sicily.) the overwhelming majority of E1b1b in Greece, Albania, Serbia, Bulgaria, Italy, France ( very low % in France) is E-V13 which originated in the southern balkans and is associated with greek expansions ( NOT Greco-Anatolian, strictly greek) across the Mediterranean.

adamo
17-06-13, 14:35
You must keep in mind that the E-M81 found in certain spaniards is not like saying E-M78 found in Greeks, it is strictly E-V13, a new mutation downstream of father E-M78 ( E-M78 originated on frontier of southern Egypt/northern Sudan) that is home to the Balkans. It came thousands of years before from Egypt, migrated to the Levantine coast of the Middle East, and then settled down in te southern Balkans, that's where E-V13 was born, son of E-M78.

adamo
17-06-13, 14:37
So spaniards/Portuguese may have quite some E-M81, but Greeks/Albanians/Serbs etc. don't have E-M78, they are majority E-V13.

Maciamo
17-06-13, 14:51
So spaniards/Portuguese may have quite some E-M81, but Greeks/Albanians/Serbs etc. don't have E-M78, they are majority E-V13.

V13 is a subclade of M78. Therefore all E-V13 is also M78.

adamo
17-06-13, 15:14
True lol it's downstream but its still a form of E-M78 either way...just a subgroup of it I guess

adamo
17-06-13, 15:15
They have E-M78+ E-V13+ whereas most Egyptians are E-M78+ E-V13-

Athelti Albanoi
17-06-13, 15:16
Based on reality, E-V13 is son of non-negroid east north-African E-78 Clade, no their not black, negroids tend to be E1b1a, E1b1b is a "north-African" variety whereas E1b1a is sub-Saharan African, (E1b1A is found at high % in Nigerian, Senegalese, Gabonese etc. males) E1b1b is found in Libyans, Egyptians, Algerians, Tunisians etc.

ok but i doubt the numbers based on imaginary i would say
actually if they splitted over 20.000 years ago which is even before the pelasgian immigration than it makes sense
is this e-v13 the oldest haplogroup in europe?

adamo
17-06-13, 15:17
They are E-M78 but they also have the E-V13 mutation as well. If they are E-M78 positive then certainly one of their forefathers came from southern Egypt and if they're E-V13 positive then certainly one of their forefathers had reached and came from the Balkans.

adamo
17-06-13, 15:20
No I think hg I is the first Y-DNA to reach Europe.

Yetos
17-06-13, 15:47
So spaniards/Portuguese may have quite some E-M81, but Greeks/Albanians/Serbs etc. don't have E-M78, they are majority E-V13.

In Greece M-78 is found 2 samples,
in Albania not,
in Bosnia found V-13 and a succesor mutation (sub) can't remember now, and still no M-78

About the oldest in Europe
Iberian V-13 clade is found from 8000 ago in Spain,
But Balkcanic clade is found 4000 ago today in Konya Turkey.

At that time G was already in Europe

Cambrius (The Red)
17-06-13, 16:45
i know that the European E1b splitted over 20.000 years ago from the African branch
but does it makes one who has the E1b have any conncetions with africans or are they total different?? :indifferent:

Keep in mine that autosomal DNA (i.e., full genetic heritage) is a prime determinant of phenotype. Haplogroups basically only provide clues as regards our early ancestors.

albanopolis
17-06-13, 18:19
i know that the European E1b splitted over 20.000 years ago from the African branch
but does it makes one who has the E1b have any conncetions with africans or are they total different?? :indifferent:
Hey Albanoi! Wellcome to the forum! Bring us some new energy to the field! What the y Dna haplogroup tells you, is who is your first grandfather for a certain time, not for all times. Yes, is true that if you go back in time, Albanians that clade E-v13,were the same people like Egyptians, or Libians, or Levantines of that time. Not the today's Egyptians or Levantines. Today they look a hell a lot of different from then, for a lot of reasons. One reason is that today they have a huge Arab blood infusion, and different mutations. A lot of Albanians cluster J which means, albanians that cluster J and arabs, back then, maybe 10000 to 12 000 yrs ago were first cousins. Now if J people of Albania, like to know who was their grandfather 24 000 years ago, will find that, Albanians of haplogroup J, Arabs and a huge majority of Northern Europe had a common grandfather, namely the person who carried the haplogroup IJ. If you are persistent enough to continue search for all grandfathers, will end up to a wild Monkey spicies that lived on to of a tree, eating banana and shitting at the same time..

albanopolis
17-06-13, 18:35
There are few typing mistakes in tha above post. Second line from the bottom. I apologise for that. It Should be ...lived on top of a tree......

Athelti Albanoi
17-06-13, 22:00
Hey Albanoi! Wellcome to the forum! Bring us some new energy to the field! What the y Dna haplogroup tells you, is who is your first grandfather for a certain time, not for all times. Yes, is true that if you go back in time, Albanians that clade E-v13,were the same people like Egyptians, or Libians, or Levantines of that time. Not the today's Egyptians or Levantines. Today they look a hell a lot of different from then, for a lot of reasons. One reason is that today they have a huge Arab blood infusion, and different mutations. A lot of Albanians cluster J which means, albanians that cluster J and arabs, back then, maybe 10000 to 12 000 yrs ago were first cousins. Now if J people of Albania, like to know who was their grandfather 24 000 years ago, will find that, Albanians of haplogroup J, Arabs and a huge majority of Northern Europe had a common grandfather, namely the person who carried the haplogroup IJ. If you are persistent enough to continue search for all grandfathers, will end up to a wild Monkey spicies that lived on to of a tree, eating banana and shitting at the same time..

thank you, but what you mean with egyptians ancient egypt begins not earlier than 4000 bc and i read somewhere that this E1b1b splitted over 20.000 years ago from E1b1a so i would rather say upper paleolithic or late stone age northafricans than egyptians

is it possible that this e-v13 or E1b1b is from the balkan i mean autochton? and mixed with northafricans since we know in ancient times northafricans were ruled by Illyro-hellenic people for long periods

could this E1b1b be an indicator for how old the Albanians are?
is it known when this haplogroup came to the balkan and how old it exactly is?
i have realy no clue about genetics i am still learining

Athelti Albanoi
17-06-13, 22:03
Keep in mine that autosomal DNA (i.e., full genetic heritage) is a prime determinant of phenotype. Haplogroups basically only provide clues as regards our early ancestors.
oh ok
thank you for this information

kamani
17-06-13, 23:27
is it possible that this e-v13 or E1b1b is from the balkan i mean autochton?

It is very possible. The sample found is Spain was dated 5000 BC and it is the same clade as the Balkan ones.


could this E1b1b be an indicator for how old the Albanians are?

No. They did not speak Albanian back then, neither did they speak Greek. It is a population ancestral to both with a language that I would say has more words surviving in Albanian but I dont speak Greek so I am bias.


is it known when this haplogroup came to the balkan and how old it exactly is?

Most serious sources say it came with the Neolithic farmers from the Levant (so in the late stone-age).

How did they look like when they came?
Probably like Syrian or Lebanese people look today.

adamo
17-06-13, 23:37
No probably like Egyptian or Libyan males depending on what their maternal mix was as well, Lebanese or Syrians , Lebanese in particular are higher in J2 , whereas Syrians are higher in J1 but have J2 as well. Syria has about 10% E3b, Lebanon more like 20%.syria has 30% J1, Lebanon has 15-20% J1. Syria has 15-30% J2 and Lebanon has 30-35%, as high as 40% I would say in some regions. Syria is more Semitic (J1) as Saudi Arabians/Yemenites/southern Iraqis whereas Lebanese are more Mesopotamian (J2) as Turks, Armenians, northern Iraqis are.

adamo
17-06-13, 23:39
As for E3b, its highest frequency is in northern Africa , they would have looked like Egyptians, Libyans, Tunisians etc. predominantly as E3b is less dominant in the Fertile Crescent as J2 is or as J1 is on the Arabian peninsula.

Nobody1
17-06-13, 23:44
The way i understand it, is:

E-M35 [East African]
___E-M78 [North African]
_____E-V22 [North African]
_____E-V12 [North African]
_____E-V32 [East African]
_____E-V65 [North African]
_____E-V13 [Near East]
___E-M81 [North African] (Berber)
___E-M123 [Near East]

Sub-Clades of E-M35 (East Africa) are E-M78 / E-M81 / E-M123;
E-V13 (dominant in Balkans and Italy) being a sub-clade of E-M78;

Cruciani et al 2007
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html

Cruciani et al 2004
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181964/?tool=pmcentrez

Semino et al 2004
http://imageshack.us/a/img832/5154/qri.png

adamo
18-06-13, 00:01
E-M78 has highest frequency near the Horn of Africa but highest diversity in southern Egypt. E-M78's of the Horn of Africa mixed with sub-Saharan African mtdna lineages, whereas north-African E-M78 mixed with more north-African/middle eastern mtdna lineages.

Nobody1
18-06-13, 00:07
E-M78 has highest frequency near the Horn of Africa but highest diversity in southern Egypt. E-M78's of the Horn of Africa mixed with sub-Saharan African mtdna lineages, whereas north-African E-M78 mixed with more north-African/middle eastern mtdna lineages.

The largest sub-clade of E-M78 in East Africa (Horn) is E-V32;

albanopolis
18-06-13, 01:17
ok but i doubt the numbers based on imaginary i would say
actually if they splitted over 20.000 years ago which is even before the pelasgian immigration than it makes sense
is this e-v13 the oldest haplogroup in europe?

E-13 Subclade was born in Ballkans. Probably in some place in today's Kosovo. But its parent E-m78 was born in North Africa. Very likely by an ancient boat, the carrier of E-m78 landed in Greece. This is disputable though, some say by land, who knows. Genetists have tools to determin that E-M78 gave birth to E-V13, not the other way around.

MOESAN
21-06-13, 21:50
In Greece M-78 is found 2 samples,
in Albania not,
in Bosnia found V-13 and a succesor mutation (sub) can't remember now, and still no M-78

About the oldest in Europe
Iberian V-13 clade is found from 8000 ago in Spain,
But Balkcanic clade is found 4000 ago today in Konya Turkey.

At that time G was already in Europe

I think we cannot be too affirmative in chronology-
I imagine Y-E-(and V13) is old enough in Europe even older than Neolithic (or was a kind of Neolitic bearer) - in Eastern and central Europe, I think Y-E-V13 was the companion of Y-G2 very often a,d sometimes with some kind of Y-J2b (look at distributions maps) and even in South (Cardial) where I suppose Y-G2 was stronger, we can find some Y-EV13 - so I will not bet about anteriority of G upon E-V13...
but I 'm not too affirmative, we could learn new things in future and change thoughts...

Yetos
21-06-13, 22:21
I think we cannot be too affirmative in chronology-
I imagine Y-E-(and V13) is old enough in Europe even older than Neolithic (or was a kind of Neolitic bearer) - in Eastern and central Europe, I think Y-E-V13 was the companion of Y-G2 very often a,d sometimes with some kind of Y-J2b (look at distributions maps) and even in South (Cardial) where I suppose Y-G2 was stronger, we can find some Y-EV13 - so I will not bet about anteriority of G upon E-V13...
but I 'm not too affirmative, we could learn new things in future and change thoughts...


If it is so old?
with the law of 400 000 how many mutations should give?
and if is founder effect? why we see M-78 E African style?
and where that founder took place?
Balkans or East mediterenean?

I doupt E-v13 is older than copper age in Balkans and minor Asia.

Besides Southern Balkans do not show a mesolithic age, they show an epipalaiolithic,
if E HG existed in neolithic then it is paleolithic,
epipaleolithic means an autoexelixis
Balkanic archaiology show almost a connectivity and a paleolithic syndrome, except Sesklo/dimini (maritime entrance of who?)

Sesklo is considered the first meeting of different cultures.
and later Vinca-arsenic bronze.

so if E is older than the epipaleolithic era of Balkans it must be at least 12 000 years old.

that is my personal view offcourse.

until an oposite prove I am staying that E has 2 types in Europe.
1 is the NW African 8000 years ago Iberia
2 is The NE African 4000 years ago Konya Minor Asia.

noUseForAname
30-09-14, 23:23
In Greece M-78 is found 2 samples,
in Albania not,
in Bosnia found V-13 and a succesor mutation (sub) can't remember now, and still no M-78

About the oldest in Europe
Iberian V-13 clade is found from 8000 ago in Spain,
But Balkcanic clade is found 4000 ago today in Konya Turkey.

At that time G was already in Europe

V13 is a subclade of M78. Therefore all E-V13 is also M78

In contrast, another major discovery relevant to the study of E-V13 origins was the announcement in Lacan et al. (2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFLacanKayserRicautBrucato2011)) that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were in haplogroup G2a (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_G2a_(Y-DNA)&action=edit&redlink=1), which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age.
It appeared identical at the seven markers tested to five Albanian, two Bosnian, one Greek, one Italian, one Sicilian, two Corsican, and two Provence French samples and are thus placed on the same node of the E1b1b1a1b-V13 network as eastern, central, and western Mediterranean haplotypes (Fig. S1).

Yanis
03-10-14, 17:09
"so if E is older than the epipaleolithic era of Balkans it must be at least 12 000 years old.

that is my personal view offcourse.

until an oposite prove I am staying that E has 2 types in Europe.
1 is the NW African 8000 years ago Iberia
2 is The NE African 4000 years ago Konya Minor Asia." from Yetos


I am convinced that among the first type there is the E-PF2431 branch parallel to E-M81 and like him coming from E-L19.

We see three major groupes in their distribution : Spain, Germany/Switzerland and England.

Angela
03-10-14, 18:23
"so if E is older than the epipaleolithic era of Balkans it must be at least 12 000 years old.

that is my personal view offcourse.

until an oposite prove I am staying that E has 2 types in Europe.
1 is the NW African 8000 years ago Iberia
2 is The NE African 4000 years ago Konya Minor Asia." from Yetos


I am convinced that among the first type there is the E-PF2431 branch parallel to E-M81 and like him coming from E-L19.

We see three major groupes in their distribution : Spain, Germany/Switzerland and England.

People believe all sorts of foolish things which have no basis in science. Repeating things over and over again does not make them true. The science has not filled in all the blanks, but this is the picture as it currently stands:


What we know, as Dienekes pointed out, is that the E-V13 in the Balkans experienced a large expansion in the Bronze Age, and from a small group of founders, apparently, as it has very little diversity. For some reason, it was in a very lucky position. It might be that it was connected in some way with bronze weapons. It's also probable that the E-V13 in Italy is due to migration from the Balkans or Greece.

None of those things tell us when it arrived in the Balkans, or from where, but the phylogeny certainly provides evidence that it came from the Near East. (I don't know where this Caucasus thing comes from...the yDna most associated with the Caucasus is "G" and "J", not "E".)

It's also possible, as some early papers posited, that E-V13 arrived in southeastern Europe in the Mesolithic, but as time passes and all the ancient dna from that period turns out to be some form of I2, that's looking less and less likely. Still, we don't have any yDna from the Aegean yet, so there's still a chance that some moved into that area in the Mesolithic. After all, it's hardly an insurmountable distance.

What is also true is that whether it had reached the periphery of south-eastern Europe by the time of the Mesolithic, or accompanied the G farmers directly from the Near East, or both, the findings in Neolithic contexts in other early Cardial sites means that it was part of the early Neolithic expansion. It may have been and probably was in the southeast from that time, as the samples also show. What we are seeing in the Balkans today is that a lot of the E-V13 is from a lineage which, as I said, underwent a massive expansion during the Bronze Age. Whether the lineages in southern Germany, for example, are part of the same group or descendents of different sub-clades or both, we don't know yet know.

Oh, it's possible that the specific "E-V13" mutation took place in Europe, but I currently don't see evidence for that, given that there are non-negligible amounts in the Near East even after the massive expansions there of J1 and J2. Let's not forget that G2 has also been superseded in the Near East. It survives in the Caucasus in such high numbers mainly, in my opinion, because it is an area of refuge.

See the following for a map of the spread of the y lineages:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...E1b1bRoute.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/E1b1bRoute.png)

I would also caution against attempts to tie ydna to autosomal percentages too strictly. We all have mothers too. The English are close to 50% EEF, and yet they have negligible amounts of E and J and T. Plus, by the time that the R1b and R1a men got to Europe, we don't know how much "Mediterranean" ancestry they carried.

One final thing as to I2a. It's clear that it was a fisher/hunter gatherer lineage present in Europe before the arrival of farming. However, some clades apparently made the transition to farming very early, perhaps from a group around the Danube Gorges, and became part of the Neolithic farmer world, to show up in Sardinia and Iberia, for example. Others may have fled into more northern areas, only to be neolithicized by the Indo-Europeans perhaps and then return with the Slavs. Whether some subclades remained in the more southern reaches of the Balkans we don't know. None of this will become clearer until we have ancient dna from the relevant groups at a reasonable level of resolution.

For a general overview of all of this, I often recommend Jean Manco's Ancestral Journeys. As the new discoveries are coming fast and furiously, I am sure she is already preparing a new edition, but it's an excellent book and a good primer for this field of study, whether she turns out to be correct in every particular or not.

The fact that E-V13 was part of the early Neolithic is incontrovertible. As is the fact that the sample was found in the Iberian Neolithic. (This means that E-V13 has been in Europe for at least 7,000 years, longer than the "R" lineages, at least so far as our current ancient samples would indicate.)

That doesn't tell us where it originated. The phylogeny would indicate that it is sourced in the Near East, although it's possible, as Maleth pointed out, that the mutation occurred in Europe. I still think that it is more likely it originated in the Middle East, given the levels in the Druze, a population that seems to have preserved the more ancient lineages of the Middle East, but it wouldn't at all surprise me to discover that Maleth is correct.

The editor of the "E" pages on Wiki is very knowledgeable, in my opinion, and so I think that the following page gives a very nice summary.(You can jump to the E-V13 section.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogr...autBrucato2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFLacanKayserRicautBrucato2011)

See also the Marie Lacan et al paper which found the ancient E-V13 sample:
http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255.long

As to the route that E-V13 took to reach Iberia, the Avellenar site is an epi-Cardial one. This is a good map of the Cardial migrations as determined by archaeology:
http://armchairprehistory.com/wp-con...urope-map1.gif (http://armchairprehistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/europe-map1.gif)
Note that according to some researchers, at least, the start of the Cardial culture in Europe can be located on the Adriatic in the Balkans.

It's true that there were Cardial sites in North Africa and some have posited a movement from those sites into Iberia.
http://forwhattheywereweare.files.wo...e15_image1.jpg (http://forwhattheywereweare.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/zephyrvs_lxvi_2010_page15_image1.jpg)

However, please note the location of the Avellenar site:
http://dnaexplained.files.wordpress..../ancient-y.png (http://dnaexplained.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/ancient-y.png)

Given this location and the correspondences between Avellenar and Treilles, I think it highly likely that Avellenar was part of the Cardial expansion that moved along the northern Mediterranean.

If someone wishes to quibble with the Bronze Age date (based on pedigree type rates) for the expansion of E-V13 in the Balkans, that's fine. The alternative is to use the Zivitovsky rate which is 2 1/2 times slower, which would mean it had its massive expansion way back in the Neolithic.

There is no evidence whatsoever, to my knowledge, linking E-V13 to the Caucasus (that is G and J2 country) or the Turks, or some mythical group of Egyptians. Nor is there any indication so far that it came to Europe by way of Gibraltar. That is highly probable, of course, for at least some of E-M81, which has a very different history and distribution.

We try to deal with science and recorded history here, not myths or things used as calumnies of one sort or another.

It would help further discussion to read the relevant cited papers. and if there is disagreement, to cite contradictory papers.

John Doe
03-10-14, 20:07
People believe all sorts of foolish things which have no basis in science. Repeating things over and over again does not make them true. The science has not filled in all the blanks, but this is the picture as it currently stands:


What we know, as Dienekes pointed out, is that the E-V13 in the Balkans experienced a large expansion in the Bronze Age, and from a small group of founders, apparently, as it has very little diversity. For some reason, it was in a very lucky position. It might be that it was connected in some way with bronze weapons. It's also probable that the E-V13 in Italy is due to migration from the Balkans or Greece.

None of those things tell us when it arrived in the Balkans, or from where, but the phylogeny certainly provides evidence that it came from the Near East. (I don't know where this Caucasus thing comes from...the yDna most associated with the Caucasus is "G" and "J", not "E".)

It's also possible, as some early papers posited, that E-V13 arrived in southeastern Europe in the Mesolithic, but as time passes and all the ancient dna from that period turns out to be some form of I2, that's looking less and less likely. Still, we don't have any yDna from the Aegean yet, so there's still a chance that some moved into that area in the Mesolithic. After all, it's hardly an insurmountable distance.

What is also true is that whether it had reached the periphery of south-eastern Europe by the time of the Mesolithic, or accompanied the G farmers directly from the Near East, or both, the findings in Neolithic contexts in other early Cardial sites means that it was part of the early Neolithic expansion. It may have been and probably was in the southeast from that time, as the samples also show. What we are seeing in the Balkans today is that a lot of the E-V13 is from a lineage which, as I said, underwent a massive expansion during the Bronze Age. Whether the lineages in southern Germany, for example, are part of the same group or descendents of different sub-clades or both, we don't know yet know.

Oh, it's possible that the specific "E-V13" mutation took place in Europe, but I currently don't see evidence for that, given that there are non-negligible amounts in the Near East even after the massive expansions there of J1 and J2. Let's not forget that G2 has also been superseded in the Near East. It survives in the Caucasus in such high numbers mainly, in my opinion, because it is an area of refuge.

See the following for a map of the spread of the y lineages:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...E1b1bRoute.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/E1b1bRoute.png)

I would also caution against attempts to tie ydna to autosomal percentages too strictly. We all have mothers too. The English are close to 50% EEF, and yet they have negligible amounts of E and J and T. Plus, by the time that the R1b and R1a men got to Europe, we don't know how much "Mediterranean" ancestry they carried.

One final thing as to I2a. It's clear that it was a fisher/hunter gatherer lineage present in Europe before the arrival of farming. However, some clades apparently made the transition to farming very early, perhaps from a group around the Danube Gorges, and became part of the Neolithic farmer world, to show up in Sardinia and Iberia, for example. Others may have fled into more northern areas, only to be neolithicized by the Indo-Europeans perhaps and then return with the Slavs. Whether some subclades remained in the more southern reaches of the Balkans we don't know. None of this will become clearer until we have ancient dna from the relevant groups at a reasonable level of resolution.

For a general overview of all of this, I often recommend Jean Manco's Ancestral Journeys. As the new discoveries are coming fast and furiously, I am sure she is already preparing a new edition, but it's an excellent book and a good primer for this field of study, whether she turns out to be correct in every particular or not.

The fact that E-V13 was part of the early Neolithic is incontrovertible. As is the fact that the sample was found in the Iberian Neolithic. (This means that E-V13 has been in Europe for at least 7,000 years, longer than the "R" lineages, at least so far as our current ancient samples would indicate.)

That doesn't tell us where it originated. The phylogeny would indicate that it is sourced in the Near East, although it's possible, as Maleth pointed out, that the mutation occurred in Europe. I still think that it is more likely it originated in the Middle East, given the levels in the Druze, a population that seems to have preserved the more ancient lineages of the Middle East, but it wouldn't at all surprise me to discover that Maleth is correct.

The editor of the "E" pages on Wiki is very knowledgeable, in my opinion, and so I think that the following page gives a very nice summary.(You can jump to the E-V13 section.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogr...autBrucato2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFLacanKayserRicautBrucato2011)

See also the Marie Lacan et al paper which found the ancient E-V13 sample:
http://www.pnas.org/content/108/45/18255.long

As to the route that E-V13 took to reach Iberia, the Avellenar site is an epi-Cardial one. This is a good map of the Cardial migrations as determined by archaeology:
http://armchairprehistory.com/wp-con...urope-map1.gif (http://armchairprehistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/europe-map1.gif)
Note that according to some researchers, at least, the start of the Cardial culture in Europe can be located on the Adriatic in the Balkans.

It's true that there were Cardial sites in North Africa and some have posited a movement from those sites into Iberia.
http://forwhattheywereweare.files.wo...e15_image1.jpg (http://forwhattheywereweare.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/zephyrvs_lxvi_2010_page15_image1.jpg)

However, please note the location of the Avellenar site:
http://dnaexplained.files.wordpress..../ancient-y.png (http://dnaexplained.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/ancient-y.png)

Given this location and the correspondences between Avellenar and Treilles, I think it highly likely that Avellenar was part of the Cardial expansion that moved along the northern Mediterranean.

If someone wishes to quibble with the Bronze Age date (based on pedigree type rates) for the expansion of E-V13 in the Balkans, that's fine. The alternative is to use the Zivitovsky rate which is 2 1/2 times slower, which would mean it had its massive expansion way back in the Neolithic.

There is no evidence whatsoever, to my knowledge, linking E-V13 to the Caucasus (that is G and J2 country) or the Turks, or some mythical group of Egyptians. Nor is there any indication so far that it came to Europe by way of Gibraltar. That is highly probable, of course, for at least some of E-M81, which has a very different history and distribution.

We try to deal with science and recorded history here, not myths or things used as calumnies of one sort or another.

It would help further discussion to read the relevant cited papers. and if there is disagreement, to cite contradictory papers.

Interesting. I happen to be E-M35.1 according to 23andme, unfortunately, they haven't branched me to a more specific subclade, I reckon I can be either E-V13 or M34, as soon as I'll be able to I'll test with FTDNA, but for now, what is at a higher frequency among AJs? V-13 or M34?

Garrick
03-10-14, 20:51
That doesn't tell us where it originated. The phylogeny would indicate that it is sourced in the Near East, although it's possible, as Maleth pointed out, that the mutation occurred in Europe. I still think that it is more likely it originated in the Middle East, given the levels in the Druze, a population that seems to have preserved the more ancient lineages of the Middle East, but it wouldn't at all surprise me to discover that Maleth is correct.


In this forum we can see different views where E-V13 originated, for example: Egypt, Middle East, Anatolia, Caucasus, South Eastern Europe, Iberian peninsula etc. However, over time with more information and evidence, coming up convergence of knowledge. So today, with higher probability can be highlighted Middle East.



One final thing as to I2a. It's clear that it was a fisher/hunter gatherer lineage present in Europe before the arrival of farming. However, some clades apparently made the transition to farming very early, perhaps from a group around the Danube Gorges, and became part of the Neolithic farmer world, to show up in Sardinia and Iberia, for example. Others may have fled into more northern areas, only to be neolithicized by the Indo-Europeans perhaps and then return with the Slavs. Whether some subclades remained in the more southern reaches of the Balkans we don't know. None of this will become clearer until we have ancient dna from the relevant groups at a reasonable level of resolution.

Very informative.

In a topic was discussion about it, to what extent I2a carriers as hunter-gatherers could adapt farming way of life. In this subject, it would be interesting to know which haplogroups people of Vinca culture belonged (? I2a, E-V13, G2a, mixed, etc.). It was farming society.

One of main archeological site is Vinca-Belo Brdo in Serbia, by which culture is called:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da-Belo_Brdo

Vinca culture occupied mostly Central Balkan areas:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da_culture

MOESAN
05-10-14, 19:52
People believe all sorts of foolish things which have no basis in science. Repeating things over and over again does not make them true. The science has not filled in all the blanks, but this is the picture as it currently stands:


What we know, as Dienekes pointed out, is that the E-V13 in the Balkans [ .................................. ] It would help further discussion to read the relevant cited papers. and if there is disagreement, to cite contradictory papers.

good post -

MOESAN
05-10-14, 20:08
Haplo Y-E1B-V13 is very dense in Kosovo but also in eastern Bulgaria: it could be very true "it" took part iin the metallurgy boom at Copper and then Bronze Ages which was apparently centered there; the supposed eastern affiliation of first Albanians (discussed it's true) could have some basis here -
concerning Italy, ancient anthropology think a "balkano-mediterranean' typed population(very unprecise term, but signifying something new under the authors pens) came through North into Italy at Chalcolithic, intruding in the "local Chalcolithic" different from the 'mediterranean Chalcolithic' more southern and new, of greek inspiration - some Y-E-V13 among them too???

Angela
05-10-14, 20:30
[QUOTE]Garrick:In this forum we can see different views where E-V13 originated, for example: Egypt, Middle East, Anatolia, Caucasus, South Eastern Europe, Iberian peninsula etc. However, over time with more information and evidence, coming up convergence of knowledge. So today, with higher probability can be highlighted Middle East."

When trying to pinpoint the origins of E-V13, not its spread, it is essential to look at the phylogeny. E-V13 did not originate in Iberia, or the Caucasus, and there is no indication so far that it originated in Egypt. The only rational options based on current evidence are the Middle East or southeastern Europe.

albanopolis
06-10-14, 20:08
[QUOTE]Garrick:In this forum we can see different views where E-V13 originated, for example: Egypt, Middle East, Anatolia, Caucasus, South Eastern Europe, Iberian peninsula etc. However, over time with more information and evidence, coming up convergence of knowledge. So today, with higher probability can be highlighted Middle East."

When trying to pinpoint the origins of E-V13, not its spread, it is essential to look at the phylogeny. E-V13 did not originate in Iberia, or the Caucasus, and there is no indication so far that it originated in Egypt. The only rational options based on current evidence are the Middle East or southeastern Europe.

I read somewhere on the internet that Adam and Eve were born at different times. Some say there was a 60 000 years difference inn favor of Eave I think. So Eve was born 60 000 years earlier in a different geographic location from Adam. It took Adam and Eve thousand of years to meet to produce the first modern human.
By this time Eve since she was born first had evolved in some different evolved Eves.
Depending on which Eve they met even if there was the same Adam their offspring would look different. I understand that Eve is traced through MtDNA.
Is there any truth in this story? Who knows to explain it?