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Fire Haired
24-06-13, 06:06
We know for a fact that the Romans where Italian just like people in Italy today the Y DNA of people who live in the area of Rome today have


43% Indo European R1b S28, 19.5% mid eastern J1, 10% North African E1b1b, 8.5% Neolithic northern Anatolian G2a, 5% Mesolithic European I2a2, 3.5% mid eastern T, 3.5% Indo European and Mesolithic European R1a, 3% Nordic I1, 2% mid eastern J1, 2% Mesolithic European I2a1a,


since the most popular group for Romans was R1b S28 u would except them to have spread it across their empire but that is not what happened it seems the Romans did not spread any R1b S28 the only groups they did spread where mid eastern and north African J2, E1b1b, J1


also the map of Y DNA J2 in Europe perfectly matches the map of the roman empire all the areas with 5% or more J2 are withing the borders of the Roman empire to me this definetley mean Rome spread it throughout Europe and north Africa
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34765&d=1371522865
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34766&d=1371522870




here are maps of J1 and E1b1b u can see that the areas with more J1 also have more E1b1b this means they came in the same time defintley in Greco Roman times and the J1 and E1b1b almost all of Europe defintley came from the Roman empire except Greece and south east Europe
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34763&d=1371522493
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34764&d=1371522501


The Romans did not spread any Indo European R1b S28 which 43% of Italiens in the area of Rome the real Romans who where central Italians the Centurions who where the super soldiers of the Roman empire they lived in military camps across the Roman empire where almost always Italian it was a law for most of Romes histiory that Centurions had to be of Italian ancestry there where some soldiers in other ranks like Auxilia they had some non Italians but even those ranks where mainly Italian it was not until near the end of the Roman empire that they allowed non Italian Centurions and allowed more in other ranks but most of these people where from Germanic tribes not the middle east or north Africa they also allowed many non Roman people to immigrate around the empire


The Romans where very patriotic at first they where just a village it took about 500 years for them to conquer Italy then another 150 years to conquer western Europe and the Mediterranean the Roman empire at first only allowed people from the city of Rome or around that area to be at high rank later when their empire became to big for just people from Rome they allowed all Italians Rome was very strict about this


when Hadrian became Emperor in 76ad this infuriated Romans because he was born in Spain even though his parents where born in Rome and had 100% Roman blood


here is a map of R1b S28 and the largest extent of Celtic people i highlighted the areas that Halleste Celts from central Europe migrated to
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34767&d=1371523261
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34768&d=1371523266




the R1b S28 in Britain,Germany, and Poland did not come form Rome either for one thing Poland was not apart of the Roman empire and most of Germany was not either the R1b S28 in those areas comes from Urnfield culture 3,200ybphttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture


this culture gave birth to Hallstatt Celtic culture about 2,900ybp and Italien Villnoaven culture about 2,900ybp Urnfield also spread from central Europe to Germany, Poland, and Britain


that is also the reason why Hallstatt Celts and Romans had R1b s28 because in central Europe about 3,200ybp the Urnfield people spoke the proto Italian and some Celtic langauges spoke Celtic


the Celtic and Italien languages go back to a common ancestor just 4,500ybp in central Europe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo-Celtic


the Italian speakers spread from central Europe into Italy about 3,100ybp and slowly conquered it and spread the Italian language but modern Italians and ancient Romans are mainly descended of the people who already lived in Italy even though they have mainly Y DNA R1b S28 like Celts does not make them close blood relatives Y DNA Is just a direct lineage like a last name it does not tell ur full ancestry the first Italian speakers would have been genetically identical to Celtic people but they quickley inter married with the nativ Italians and became genetically Italian
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml


that is also part of the reason why Celts and Romans knew each other so well the Romans first mentioned the Celts in writting about 2,400ybp but they had known the Celts for 3,000 years the Hallstatt Culture traded with Italian Villnoven culture 2,900ybp this also part of the reason why Roman weapons where so similar to Celtic weapons i big reason why Urnfield culture conquered Italy is because they where some of the earliest people to use Iron weapons that is also why the Hallstatt Celts where so successful


I know that ancient Italy and Greece 2,500 ybp where the only areas of Europe with true organized civilizations and they where very very very connected with civilizations in the mid east and North Africa that is why mid eastern and north African Y DNA in Europe is most popular in Italy and Greece


the first Civilizations in Italy began just 2,600ybp because they had contact with Greece before that Y DNA E1b1b,J1,J2 would have been at most would have been 1% then they became at least 33% they must have[B][I] inter married with mid eastern and North Africans like crazy now it seems that when Rome became an empire they spread mid eastern and North African Y DNA


So maybe Rome is not the only example maybe Civilization is Europe did not just spread as an idea from the mid east and north Africa people from those areas actually went to Europe and inter married and for early civilizations in Italy and Greece the rich high ranking people may have been direct descendants of mid eastern immigrants i don't know what the answer is but there is something about ancient Rome and Greece we don't know about or maybe there is a historical reason why the Romans spread only mid eastern and north African Y DNA i don't know about

LeBrok
24-06-13, 07:56
I don't think Rome spread these haplotypes around the empire, at least to meaningful extend. These HGs were already there as mostly agricultural societies who came here long time ago. These were the most fertile grounds, the biggest cities, rich populations; that's why Rome had to have them. And this is why Roman Empire borders correlate with these HGs.

Sorry, didn't have time to read it all, so maybe we agree...

Fire Haired
24-06-13, 08:03
I don't think Rome spread these haplotypes around the empire, at least to meaningful extend. These HGs were already there as mostly agricultural societies who came here long time ago. These were the most fertile grounds, the biggest cities, rich populations; that's why Rome had to have them. And this is why Roman Empire borders correlate with these HGs.

Sorry, didn't have time to read it all, so maybe we agree...

from 30 Y DNA samples in Neolithic western europe from 7,000-4,700ybp none had any J subclades 80% had G2a four had I2a1a1 and only one had E1b1b V13 since E1b1b , J1, and J2 are distributed the same why in Europe they had to have come from the same event and time i think Greco Roman times they definitely did not come from Neolithic times because then why are they centered in Italy and Greece if it was Neolithic then it would be very popular in all of Europe in would be probably more popular in Germany than in Italy

Y DNA G2a was the Neolithic haplogroup that came to Europe probably from the caucus mountains or northern Anatolia

Sile
17-08-13, 20:16
I was always taught that the Romans branched out of a southern Etruscan tribe. The map below illustrates the extent of Etruscan territory when you include the "blue borders of latium'.
Southern Etruscan reached modern neapolitan lands of Campania.

http://undevicesimus.deviantart.com/art/The-Rise-of-the-Roman-Republic-c-510-300-BC-325733131

and below, depicts the true Italic people as per Greek historians ( greeks named the land Italy after the Italics they only knew)
http://undevicesimus.deviantart.com/art/Ancient-Italy-c-600-c-300-BC-325377889

Etruscans where not Italics for Greek Historians

Angela
17-08-13, 21:12
I was always taught that the Romans branched out of a southern Etruscan tribe. The map below illustrates the extent of Etruscan territory when you include the "blue borders of latium'.
Southern Etruscan reached modern neapolitan lands of Campania.

http://undevicesimus.deviantart.com/art/The-Rise-of-the-Roman-Republic-c-510-300-BC-325733131

and below, depicts the true Italic people as per Greek historians ( greeks named the land Italy after the Italics they only knew)
http://undevicesimus.deviantart.com/art/Ancient-Italy-c-600-c-300-BC-325377889

Etruscans where not Italics for Greek Historians

I agree that Etruscans were not Italics, and therefore it's overstating it, in my opinion, to say that Rome branched out of a southern Etruscan tribe. The Italic Romans absorbed the Etruscans and their culture. Some scholars would go so far as to say that in many ways, the Roman culture as it developed was heavily Etruscan in nature.

The Romans themselves certainly knew how much they owed to the Etruscans. Pity that Claudius' huge magnum opus on the Etruscans has been lost to us. I think it's interesting, btw, that Claudius married an Etruscan lady. It goes to show how intertwined they became, even at the highest levels, with one of them marrying into the imperial family.

Wilhelm
17-08-13, 21:21
No...haplogroups E and G were already in neolithic Europe. Also, the J2 subclades are not the same accross Europe.

adamo
18-08-13, 09:11
There is significant evidence that the brutii, an offshoot of the lucanians, where of Anatolian origin. The Sabines and a few other groups may have been Greco-Anatolian as well, such as the Etruscans, the prior oenotrians, the apulians (iapygians) of Crete. Many other tribes where italic, others Celtic. The Ligurian and italic branches may have been Celtic offshoots. I find it very confusing to decipher wether the tribes are italic or of Greco-Anatolian origin at times, I have my doubts on the "Celtic" origins of the Samnites, sabines etc.

Sile
18-08-13, 12:49
Roman legions in Britain, which spread what haplogroup?

Roman Citizen Legiones:

Stationed or Otherwise Evidenced in Britain
Legio II Adiutrix - The Second Assistant Legion
Legio II Augusta - The Second Augustan Legion
Legio VI Victrix - The Sixth Victorious Legion
Legio VIII Augusta - The Eighth Augustan Legion
Legio IX Hispana - The Ninth Spanish Legion
Legio XIV Gemina - The Fourteenth Twin Legion
Legio XX Valeria - The Twentieth Legion, Valiant and Victorious
Legio XXII Deiotariana - The Twenty-Second Deiotarian Legion
Legio XXII Primigenia - The Twenty-Second Firstborn Legion


Auxiliary Cavalry:

Ala Augusta Gallorum Petriana - The August Petrian Wing of Gauls
Ala Augusta Gallorum Proculeiana civium Romanorum - The August Proculeian
Wing of Gauls, citizens of Rome
Ala I Hispanorum Asturum - The first Spanish Wing of Astures
Ala II Asturum - The Second Wing of Astures
Ala Augusta ob virtutem appellata - The Augustan Wing, so named by reason of
their virtue
Ala Gallorum et Thracum Classiana civium Romanorum - The Classian Wing of
Gauls and Thracians
Ala Gallorum Indiana - Indus' Wing of Gauls
Ala Gallorum Picentiana - The Picentine Wing of Gauls
Ala Augusta Sebosiana - The August Wing of Sebusiani
Ala I Herculaea - The first Herculean Wing
Ala Nerviorum - The Wing of Nervii
Ala I Pannoniorum Sabiniana - The first Sabinian Wing of Pannonians
Ala I Pannoniorum Tampiana Victrix - The first Victorious Wing of
Pannonians, from Tampiana
Ala I Sarmatarum - The First Wing of Sarmatians
Ala I Thracum - The first Wing of Thracians
Ala I Tungrorum - The First Tungrian Wing
Ala Hispanorum Vettonum - The Spanish Wing of Vettones
Ala Augusta Vocontiorum - The August Wing of Vocontii


Auxiliary Infantry Cohortes

Stationed or Otherwise Evidenced in Britain
Cohors Peditata et Equitata - Auxiliary Infantry and Mixed Cohorts
Cohors Primae Alpinorum - The First Cohort of Alpini
Cohors Primae Aquitanorum - The First Cohort of Aquitani
Cohors Secundae Asturum equitata - The Second Cohort of Astures,
part-mounted
Cohors Primae Baetasiorum - The First Cohort of Baetasii
Cohors Primae Batavorum equitata - The First Cohort of Batavi, part-mounted
Cohors Tertiae Bracaraugustanorum - The Third Cohort from Bracara Augusta
Cohors Quartae Breucorum [Antoninianae] - The Fourth Cohort of (Antonine's
Own) Breuci
Cohors Primae Celtiberorum - The First Cohort of Celtiberians
Cohors Primae Aeliae Classicae - The First Cohort of the Aelian Fleet
Cohors Primae Cornoviorum - The First Cohort of Cornovii
Cohors Primae [Ulpia Traiana] Cugernorum [civium Romanorum]
The First (Ulpian) Cohort of Cugerni, (Trajans own, citizens of Rome)
Cohors Primae [Aelia] Dacorum - The First Cohort of (Aelian) Daci
Cohors Primae Delmatarum - The First Cohort of Delmatae
Cohors Secundae Delmatarum - The Second Cohort of Delmatae
Cohors Quartae Delmatarum - The Fourth Cohort of Delmatae
Cohors Primae Frisiavonum - The First Cohort of Frisiavones
Cohors Quartae Frisiavonum - The Fourth Cohort of Frisiavones?
Cohors Secundae Gallorum - The Second Cohort of Gauls
Cohors Quartae Gallorum - The Fourth Cohort of Gauls
Cohors Quintae Gallorum - The Fifth Cohort of Gauls
Cohors Primae Nervana Germanorum milliaria equitata
The First Nervian Cohort of Germans, one-thousand strong, part-mounted
Cohors Primae Hamiorum Saggitariorum - The First Cohort of Hamian Bowmen
Cohors Primae [Aelia] Hispanorum [milliaria] equitata
The First (Aelian) Cohort of Spaniards, (one-thousand strong,) part-mounted
Cohors Primae Lingonum [Gordiana] - The First Cohort of (Gordians Own)
Lingones
Cohors Secundae Lingonum - The Second Cohort of Lingones
Cohors Tertiae Lingonum - The Third Cohort of Lingones
Cohors Quartae Lingonum - The Fourth Cohort of Lingones
Cohors Primae Menapiorum - The First Cohort of Menapii
Cohors Primae Morinorum - The First Cohort of Morini
Cohors Primae Nerviorum - The First Cohort of Nervii
Cohors Secundae Nerviorum - The Second Cohort of Nervii
Cohors Tertiae Nerviorum - The Third Cohort of Nervii
Cohors Sextae Nerviorum - The Sixth Cohort of Nervii
Cohors Primae Pannoniorum - The First Cohort of Pannonians
Cohors Secundae Pannoniorum - The Second Cohort of Pannonians
Cohortes Praetoriae - The Praetorian Cohorts
Cohors Quintae Raetorum - The Fifth Cohort of Raeti
Cohors Sextae Raetorum - The Sixth Cohort of Raeti
Cohors Primae Sunicorum - The First Cohort of Sunici
Cohors Primae Thracum - The First Cohort of Thracians
Cohors Secundae Thracum - The Second Cohort of Thracians
Cohors Sextae Thracum - The Sixth Cohort of Thracians
Cohors Septimae Thracum - The Seventh Cohort of Thracians
Cohors Primae Tungrorum - The First Cohort of Tungri
Cohors Secundae Tungrorum milliaria equitata
The Second Cohort of Tungri, one-thousand strong, part-mounted
Cohors Primae Vangionum - The First Cohort of Vangiones
Cohors Primae Fida Vardullorum civium Romanorum equitata milliaria
The First Cohort of Faithful Vardulli, citizens of Rome, part-mounted,
one-thousand strong
Cohors Secundae Vasconum civium Romanorum
The Second Cohort of Vascones, citizens of Rome

Irregular Auxiliary Units
Stationed or Otherwise Evidenced in Britain
Cunei, Equites, Numeri, et Vexillationes
Formations, Mounted-units, Companies and Detachments
Cuneus Armaturum - The Armoured Formation
Ribchester (Notitia Dignitatum),
Cuneus Frisiavonum Aballavensium - The Formation of Frisians from Aballava
Burgh by Sands (unattested but implied in unit title),
Papcastle (RIB 882 altar 19-20 Oct AD241; 883 altar AD244-249),
Cuneus Frisiavonum Vercovicensium - The Formation of Frisians from
Vercovicium
Housesteads (RIB 1594 altar),
Cuneus Frisiorum Vinoviensium - The Formation of Frisians from Vinovia
Binchester (RIB 1036 undated),
Cuneus Sarmatarum - The Formation of Sarmatians
Ribchester (Notitia Dignitatum),
Equites catafractariorum - The Heavily-Armoured Horsemen
Ilkley (Notitia Dignitatum),
Equites Crispianorum - The Crispian Horsemen
Doncaster (Notitia Dignitatum),
Equites Dalmatarum - The Dalmatian Horsemen
Bridlington (Notitia Dignitatum),
Equites Dalmatarum Branodunensium - The Dalmatian Horsemen of Branodunum
Brancaster (Notitia Dignitatum),
Equites stablesianorum Gariannonensium - The Horsemen from the Stables at
Gariannum
Burgh Castle (Notitia Dignitatum),
Milites Tungrecanorum - The Soldiers of the Tungrecani
Dover (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Abulcorum - The Company of Abulci
Pevensey (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Defensorum - The Company of Guards
Kirkby Thore (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Directorum - The Company of Upright Men
Brough Castle (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Equitum Sarmatarum - The Company of Sarmatian Horsemen
Ribchester (RIB 583; dedicatory inscription to Apollo; AD241),
Catterick (RIB 2479; tiles stamped: BSAR),
Numerus Exploratorum Bremenio - The Company of Scouts from Bremenium
High Rochester (RIB 1262 altar AD238-241; 1270 base),
Portchester (Notitia Dignitatum),
Bowes (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Exploratorum Habitanco - The Company of Scouts from Habitancum
Risingham (RIB 1235 AD213; 1243; 1244),
Portchester (Notitia Dignitatum),
Bowes (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Fortensium - The Company of Brave Men
Bradwell on Sea (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Hnaudifridi - The Company of Hnaudifridius
Housesteads (RIB 1576 altar),
Numerus Longovicanorum - The Company from Longovicium
Lanchester (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Magnesium? - The Company from Magnis
Carvoran (RIB 1825),
Numerus Maurorum Aurelianorum - The Company of Aurelian's own Mauri
Burgh-by-Sands (RIB 2042; Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Nerviorum Dictensium - The Company of Nervii from Dictium
Dictium? (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Pacensium - The Company of Pacenses
Burrow Walls (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Solensium - The Company of Solenses
Old Carlisle (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus superventientium Petueriensium - The Company of Newcomers from
Petuaria
Malton (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Syrorum Saggitariorum - The Company of Syrian Archers
Kirkby Thore (RIB 764 altar to Fortuna),
Numerus barcariorum Tigrisiensium - The Company of Tigris Bargemen
South Shields (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Turnacensium - The Company of Turnacensi
Lympne (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Vigilum - The Company of Watchmen
Chester-le-Street (Notitia Dignitatum),
Venatores Bannienses - The Hunters from Banna
Birdoswald (RIB 1905 altar),
Vexillatio Classis Britannicae - A Detachment of the British Fleet
Benwell (RIB 1340 AD122-126),
Vexillatio Germanorum Voredis - The Detachment of Germans from Voreda
Old Penrith (RIB 920 altar),
Vexillatio equitata provincae Germaniae - The part-mounted Detachment from
the German provinces
Ribchester (RIB 589 c.AD163-169),
Vexillatio Raetorum et Noricorum - The Detachment from Raetia and Noricum
Manchester (RIB 576 altar),
Vexillatio Raetorum et Gaesatorum - The Detachment of Raeti and Gaesati
Cappuck (RIB 2117 altar),
Risingham (RIB 1216 altar?; 1217 altar; 1235 AD213),
Great Chesters (RIB 1724 altar),
Vexillatio Sueborum Longovicanorum - The Detachment of Suebi from
Longovicium
Lanchester (RIB 1074 altar; Notitia Dignitatum),

Cohors Tertiae Praetoriae - The Third Praetorian Cohort
Hadrian's Wall between Castlesteads and Stanwix (RIB 2023 centurial stone),
Cohors Quintae Praetoriae - The Fifth Praetorian Cohort
Hadrian's Wall between Carrawburgh and Housesteads (RIB 1571 centurial
stone),


The Companies of Scouts
Numerus Exploratorum - The Company of Scouts
Portchester (Notitia Dignitatum),
Bowes (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Exploratorum Habitanco - The Company of Scouts from Habitancum
Risingham (RIB 1235 AD213; 1243; 1244),
Numerus Exploratorum Bremenio - The Company of Scouts from Bremenium
High Rochester (RIB 1262 altar AD238-241; 1270 base),


Evidence for the Fleet in Britain
Lympne (RIB 66; altar to Neptune; dated: c.AD115-135).
Folkestone (Burn 216; RIB II; undated roofing tiles),
Cohors Primae Aeliae Classicae - The First Cohort of the Aelian Fleet
L' Anne pigraphique 1997.1001 diploma dated 27th February AD158,
Ravenglass (RIB 2411.94; lead seal),
Tunnocelum (Notitia Dignitatum).
Pedites Classicorum Britanniorum - The Infantry of the British Fleet
Hadrian's Wall between Birdoswalds and Castlesteads (RIB 1944 et 1945).
Vexillatio Classis Britannicae - A Detachment of the British Fleet
Benwell (RIB 1340 AD122-126).


bold are interesting areas

Interesting is that, apart from the Dalmatians, no other illyrians where there, maybe they where destroyed after the Illyrian revolts

Ike
18-08-13, 16:41
...since the most popular group for Romans was R1b S28 u would except them to have spread it across their empire but that is not what happened it seems the Romans did not spread any R1b S28 the only groups they did spread where mid eastern and north African J2, E1b1b, J1...


Possible explanations:

1. There were no R1b in that area in that time.
2. R1b were in vast majority homosexuals
3. R1b were exclusively high priests and guardians of the secret, forbidden to have intercourse

RHAS
24-08-13, 00:39
Roman legions in Britain, which spread what haplogroup?

Roman Citizen Legiones:

Stationed or Otherwise Evidenced in Britain
Legio II Adiutrix - The Second Assistant Legion
Legio II Augusta - The Second Augustan Legion
Legio VI Victrix - The Sixth Victorious Legion
Legio VIII Augusta - The Eighth Augustan Legion
Legio IX Hispana - The Ninth Spanish Legion
Legio XIV Gemina - The Fourteenth Twin Legion
Legio XX Valeria - The Twentieth Legion, Valiant and Victorious
Legio XXII Deiotariana - The Twenty-Second Deiotarian Legion
Legio XXII Primigenia - The Twenty-Second Firstborn Legion


Auxiliary Cavalry:

Ala Augusta Gallorum Petriana - The August Petrian Wing of Gauls
Ala Augusta Gallorum Proculeiana civium Romanorum - The August Proculeian
Wing of Gauls, citizens of Rome
Ala I Hispanorum Asturum - The first Spanish Wing of Astures
Ala II Asturum - The Second Wing of Astures
Ala Augusta ob virtutem appellata - The Augustan Wing, so named by reason of
their virtue
Ala Gallorum et Thracum Classiana civium Romanorum - The Classian Wing of
Gauls and Thracians
Ala Gallorum Indiana - Indus' Wing of Gauls
Ala Gallorum Picentiana - The Picentine Wing of Gauls
Ala Augusta Sebosiana - The August Wing of Sebusiani
Ala I Herculaea - The first Herculean Wing
Ala Nerviorum - The Wing of Nervii
Ala I Pannoniorum Sabiniana - The first Sabinian Wing of Pannonians
Ala I Pannoniorum Tampiana Victrix - The first Victorious Wing of
Pannonians, from Tampiana
Ala I Sarmatarum - The First Wing of Sarmatians
Ala I Thracum - The first Wing of Thracians
Ala I Tungrorum - The First Tungrian Wing
Ala Hispanorum Vettonum - The Spanish Wing of Vettones
Ala Augusta Vocontiorum - The August Wing of Vocontii


Auxiliary Infantry Cohortes

Stationed or Otherwise Evidenced in Britain
Cohors Peditata et Equitata - Auxiliary Infantry and Mixed Cohorts
Cohors Primae Alpinorum - The First Cohort of Alpini
Cohors Primae Aquitanorum - The First Cohort of Aquitani
Cohors Secundae Asturum equitata - The Second Cohort of Astures,
part-mounted
Cohors Primae Baetasiorum - The First Cohort of Baetasii
Cohors Primae Batavorum equitata - The First Cohort of Batavi, part-mounted
Cohors Tertiae Bracaraugustanorum - The Third Cohort from Bracara Augusta
Cohors Quartae Breucorum [Antoninianae] - The Fourth Cohort of (Antonine's
Own) Breuci
Cohors Primae Celtiberorum - The First Cohort of Celtiberians
Cohors Primae Aeliae Classicae - The First Cohort of the Aelian Fleet
Cohors Primae Cornoviorum - The First Cohort of Cornovii
Cohors Primae [Ulpia Traiana] Cugernorum [civium Romanorum]
The First (Ulpian) Cohort of Cugerni, (Trajans own, citizens of Rome)
Cohors Primae [Aelia] Dacorum - The First Cohort of (Aelian) Daci
Cohors Primae Delmatarum - The First Cohort of Delmatae
Cohors Secundae Delmatarum - The Second Cohort of Delmatae
Cohors Quartae Delmatarum - The Fourth Cohort of Delmatae
Cohors Primae Frisiavonum - The First Cohort of Frisiavones
Cohors Quartae Frisiavonum - The Fourth Cohort of Frisiavones?
Cohors Secundae Gallorum - The Second Cohort of Gauls
Cohors Quartae Gallorum - The Fourth Cohort of Gauls
Cohors Quintae Gallorum - The Fifth Cohort of Gauls
Cohors Primae Nervana Germanorum milliaria equitata
The First Nervian Cohort of Germans, one-thousand strong, part-mounted
Cohors Primae Hamiorum Saggitariorum - The First Cohort of Hamian Bowmen
Cohors Primae [Aelia] Hispanorum [milliaria] equitata
The First (Aelian) Cohort of Spaniards, (one-thousand strong,) part-mounted
Cohors Primae Lingonum [Gordiana] - The First Cohort of (Gordians Own)
Lingones
Cohors Secundae Lingonum - The Second Cohort of Lingones
Cohors Tertiae Lingonum - The Third Cohort of Lingones
Cohors Quartae Lingonum - The Fourth Cohort of Lingones
Cohors Primae Menapiorum - The First Cohort of Menapii
Cohors Primae Morinorum - The First Cohort of Morini
Cohors Primae Nerviorum - The First Cohort of Nervii
Cohors Secundae Nerviorum - The Second Cohort of Nervii
Cohors Tertiae Nerviorum - The Third Cohort of Nervii
Cohors Sextae Nerviorum - The Sixth Cohort of Nervii
Cohors Primae Pannoniorum - The First Cohort of Pannonians
Cohors Secundae Pannoniorum - The Second Cohort of Pannonians
Cohortes Praetoriae - The Praetorian Cohorts
Cohors Quintae Raetorum - The Fifth Cohort of Raeti
Cohors Sextae Raetorum - The Sixth Cohort of Raeti
Cohors Primae Sunicorum - The First Cohort of Sunici
Cohors Primae Thracum - The First Cohort of Thracians
Cohors Secundae Thracum - The Second Cohort of Thracians
Cohors Sextae Thracum - The Sixth Cohort of Thracians
Cohors Septimae Thracum - The Seventh Cohort of Thracians
Cohors Primae Tungrorum - The First Cohort of Tungri
Cohors Secundae Tungrorum milliaria equitata
The Second Cohort of Tungri, one-thousand strong, part-mounted
Cohors Primae Vangionum - The First Cohort of Vangiones
Cohors Primae Fida Vardullorum civium Romanorum equitata milliaria
The First Cohort of Faithful Vardulli, citizens of Rome, part-mounted,
one-thousand strong
Cohors Secundae Vasconum civium Romanorum
The Second Cohort of Vascones, citizens of Rome

Irregular Auxiliary Units
Stationed or Otherwise Evidenced in Britain
Cunei, Equites, Numeri, et Vexillationes
Formations, Mounted-units, Companies and Detachments
Cuneus Armaturum - The Armoured Formation
Ribchester (Notitia Dignitatum),
Cuneus Frisiavonum Aballavensium - The Formation of Frisians from Aballava
Burgh by Sands (unattested but implied in unit title),
Papcastle (RIB 882 altar 19-20 Oct AD241; 883 altar AD244-249),
Cuneus Frisiavonum Vercovicensium - The Formation of Frisians from
Vercovicium
Housesteads (RIB 1594 altar),
Cuneus Frisiorum Vinoviensium - The Formation of Frisians from Vinovia
Binchester (RIB 1036 undated),
Cuneus Sarmatarum - The Formation of Sarmatians
Ribchester (Notitia Dignitatum),
Equites catafractariorum - The Heavily-Armoured Horsemen
Ilkley (Notitia Dignitatum),
Equites Crispianorum - The Crispian Horsemen
Doncaster (Notitia Dignitatum),
Equites Dalmatarum - The Dalmatian Horsemen
Bridlington (Notitia Dignitatum),
Equites Dalmatarum Branodunensium - The Dalmatian Horsemen of Branodunum
Brancaster (Notitia Dignitatum),
Equites stablesianorum Gariannonensium - The Horsemen from the Stables at
Gariannum
Burgh Castle (Notitia Dignitatum),
Milites Tungrecanorum - The Soldiers of the Tungrecani
Dover (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Abulcorum - The Company of Abulci
Pevensey (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Defensorum - The Company of Guards
Kirkby Thore (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Directorum - The Company of Upright Men
Brough Castle (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Equitum Sarmatarum - The Company of Sarmatian Horsemen
Ribchester (RIB 583; dedicatory inscription to Apollo; AD241),
Catterick (RIB 2479; tiles stamped: BSAR),
Numerus Exploratorum Bremenio - The Company of Scouts from Bremenium
High Rochester (RIB 1262 altar AD238-241; 1270 base),
Portchester (Notitia Dignitatum),
Bowes (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Exploratorum Habitanco - The Company of Scouts from Habitancum
Risingham (RIB 1235 AD213; 1243; 1244),
Portchester (Notitia Dignitatum),
Bowes (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Fortensium - The Company of Brave Men
Bradwell on Sea (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Hnaudifridi - The Company of Hnaudifridius
Housesteads (RIB 1576 altar),
Numerus Longovicanorum - The Company from Longovicium
Lanchester (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Magnesium? - The Company from Magnis
Carvoran (RIB 1825),
Numerus Maurorum Aurelianorum - The Company of Aurelian's own Mauri
Burgh-by-Sands (RIB 2042; Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Nerviorum Dictensium - The Company of Nervii from Dictium
Dictium? (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Pacensium - The Company of Pacenses
Burrow Walls (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Solensium - The Company of Solenses
Old Carlisle (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus superventientium Petueriensium - The Company of Newcomers from
Petuaria
Malton (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Syrorum Saggitariorum - The Company of Syrian Archers
Kirkby Thore (RIB 764 altar to Fortuna),
Numerus barcariorum Tigrisiensium - The Company of Tigris Bargemen
South Shields (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Turnacensium - The Company of Turnacensi
Lympne (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Vigilum - The Company of Watchmen
Chester-le-Street (Notitia Dignitatum),
Venatores Bannienses - The Hunters from Banna
Birdoswald (RIB 1905 altar),
Vexillatio Classis Britannicae - A Detachment of the British Fleet
Benwell (RIB 1340 AD122-126),
Vexillatio Germanorum Voredis - The Detachment of Germans from Voreda
Old Penrith (RIB 920 altar),
Vexillatio equitata provincae Germaniae - The part-mounted Detachment from
the German provinces
Ribchester (RIB 589 c.AD163-169),
Vexillatio Raetorum et Noricorum - The Detachment from Raetia and Noricum
Manchester (RIB 576 altar),
Vexillatio Raetorum et Gaesatorum - The Detachment of Raeti and Gaesati
Cappuck (RIB 2117 altar),
Risingham (RIB 1216 altar?; 1217 altar; 1235 AD213),
Great Chesters (RIB 1724 altar),
Vexillatio Sueborum Longovicanorum - The Detachment of Suebi from
Longovicium
Lanchester (RIB 1074 altar; Notitia Dignitatum),

Cohors Tertiae Praetoriae - The Third Praetorian Cohort
Hadrian's Wall between Castlesteads and Stanwix (RIB 2023 centurial stone),
Cohors Quintae Praetoriae - The Fifth Praetorian Cohort
Hadrian's Wall between Carrawburgh and Housesteads (RIB 1571 centurial
stone),


The Companies of Scouts
Numerus Exploratorum - The Company of Scouts
Portchester (Notitia Dignitatum),
Bowes (Notitia Dignitatum),
Numerus Exploratorum Habitanco - The Company of Scouts from Habitancum
Risingham (RIB 1235 AD213; 1243; 1244),
Numerus Exploratorum Bremenio - The Company of Scouts from Bremenium
High Rochester (RIB 1262 altar AD238-241; 1270 base),


Evidence for the Fleet in Britain
Lympne (RIB 66; altar to Neptune; dated: c.AD115-135).
Folkestone (Burn 216; RIB II; undated roofing tiles),
Cohors Primae Aeliae Classicae - The First Cohort of the Aelian Fleet
L' Anne pigraphique 1997.1001 diploma dated 27th February AD158,
Ravenglass (RIB 2411.94; lead seal),
Tunnocelum (Notitia Dignitatum).
Pedites Classicorum Britanniorum - The Infantry of the British Fleet
Hadrian's Wall between Birdoswalds and Castlesteads (RIB 1944 et 1945).
Vexillatio Classis Britannicae - A Detachment of the British Fleet
Benwell (RIB 1340 AD122-126).


bold are interesting areas

Interesting is that, apart from the Dalmatians, no other illyrians where there, maybe they where destroyed after the Illyrian revolts

"It is important to note that at least four additional YDNA markers may have arrived with the Romans. What have been described as the Balkan group (E-V13), the Ancient Caucasians (G-S314), the Herdsman-Farmers (J-M172 – and a sub-group of this, M67, looks particularly Italian) and the Anatolian marker (R1b-M269*), when taken together, potentially add another 2.3 million Englishmen and Welshmen who could trace their fatherlines to the veterans of the II Augusta, the IX Hispana, the XIV Gemina, the XX Valeria Victrix and the other Italians who crossed to Britain in their wake."
BritainsDNA Press Releases - BritainsDNA finds the Lost Legions.
http://www.britainsdna.com/about/press-releases (http://www.britainsdna.com/about/press-releases)

adamo
24-08-13, 05:56
Wrong, G2a traveled across the early Mediterranean world. It would have moved to Greece via Anatolia and subsequently to southern Italy and northern Sardinia. If there where any like Otzi, in the alps, or Bavaria etc. they had arrived there from south-central peninsular Italy probably.

adamo
24-08-13, 05:59
How some of it ended up in Neolithic Germany, France and/or Spain, I do not know. Unless there was in fact a branch that traveled north of the Caucasus towards Bavaria or France ? But I heavily doubt this.

Noman
28-08-13, 10:00
I agree that Etruscans were not Italics, and therefore it's overstating it, in my opinion, to say that Rome branched out of a southern Etruscan tribe. The Italic Romans absorbed the Etruscans and their culture. Some scholars would go so far as to say that in many ways, the Roman culture as it developed was heavily Etruscan in nature.

The Romans themselves certainly knew how much they owed to the Etruscans. Pity that Claudius' huge magnum opus on the Etruscans has been lost to us. I think it's interesting, btw, that Claudius married an Etruscan lady. It goes to show how intertwined they became, even at the highest levels, with one of them marrying into the imperial family.
No, italics were not etruscan, but Julias Caesar sure was :)

Of course rome was dominated by etruscans a long time anyway, and its military was based on them. They had a lot of etruscan blood in the aristocracy right from the start. The disaster that led to the marian reforms wiped out most of what wasn't etruscan, and lots of nephews and cadet lines came to power, though the main camp of optimates was still largely italic.

And of course Caesar was not in the aristocratic party but, of course, in the popular party. The one that had greek and etruscan influence...because it was full of greeks and etruscans! He tried to succeed through democracy at first but of course in a more tyranic eastern style autocracy that doesn't work too well. Probably if he could have trusted his oponents not to murder him when he returned home the world would be much different.

Most the optimates were spared but they were on the way out and italic aristocrats became more and more rare. It's funny you bring up claudius because he was probably about the last died in the wool italic patrician left, and even he had some etruscan blood through caesar. That's why he was so careful to praise them and may even be why he took an etruscan wife.

On a list I saw the other day but can't find atm, of the first 15 caesars, too, 9 of them has light or red hair, and light eyes according to sources only coming from 12 caesars and a few other places. Some have no data available. That doesn't count Julius who had red hair and grey eyes (for some reason I said blue in another thread but was a brain fart). Most the rest are undescribed and only one has been described has dark hair and eyes. I am almost certain some other sources say that tiberius is also dark haired and dark eyed, though.

So there's your answer about how italic the etruscan and greek the ruling class of Rome was, and also answers whether romans have changed much in the meantime.

RHAS
31-08-13, 17:13
Haplogroup J2 M172 & Expansion Map of the Roman Empire.

https://sphotos-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1150305_591299907594835_72728669_n.jpg

Haplogroup J2 M172 - Roman Republic.

https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1236259_591804834211009_98755787_n.jpg

Ike
01-09-13, 17:52
And did the Romans have J2 M172, or they just made it possible for them to spread around the empire?

RHAS
01-09-13, 19:19
And did the Romans have J2 M172, or they just made it possible for them to spread around the empire? http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28988-Haplogroup-J2-Romans-Christianity-and-Viticulture

Greying Wanderer
03-12-14, 03:48
I think E and G were in western Europe from at least Atlantic Megalith - E possibly before that. Some of it may be Roman I guess. There's also the question of did the Romans spread a particular haplogroup themselves or did they allow it to spread through creating long-distance trade routes. I'm not sure which you mean.

Personally though I don't believe soldiers spread much dna unless they settle down in a region. IIRC legionaries weren't allowed to marry so most of their dna spreading would have been done with prostitutes and camp followers and any issue are unlikely to have had the best start in life compared to a farmer's kid.

Clusters around colonia of married, retired ex-legionary farmers - maybe so.

redeyednewt
23-05-18, 12:46
I voted no, since the Saracens/Arabs, and Phonecians who invaded various regions of what are now Southern Italy did this.

Angela
16-08-18, 22:41
Most "Middle Eastern" ydna in Europe dates to the Neolithic and the Bronze and Iron Ages. It didn't need the Romans to spread it necessarily.

You might want to take a look at the ydna found in ancient dna.

Brutus
16-08-18, 22:48
I voted no, since the Saracens/Arabs, and Phonecians who invaded various regions of what are now Southern Italy did this.
Arabs reached Sicily, but not the mainland of Italy. Moreover Phoenician slaves from Carthage may be a legit speculation. But of course not in that wide range. Lastly Arabs and Phoenicians were largely J1-P58 and less J-M172 or J2(which wasn't very scarcer than J1). So that doesn't explain where the J1 comes from at Italy. This really puts confusion and misconception. :confused2: