View Full Version : Iberian DNA haplogroups from 20,000-4,340 years ago exactly like modern Europeans

Fire Haired
24-06-13, 06:46
mtDNA 236 samples Iberia from 7,000-4,340 years ago the vast majority of the mtDNA where not well enough perserved to show the subclade like H1 they just had the basic haplogroup H.

H=98 41.52% (H20=4 1.7%,H1a1a=2 0.85%, H14a=1 0.4%)

U=43 18.2%(U5=8 3.4%(U5a=2 0.8%(U5a1=1 0.4%), U5b2=1 0.4%), U4=2 0.8%)

K=34 14.4%(K1a=3 1.27%)

J=18 7.6%

N=6 1.7%

T2=5 2%(T2b=2 0.8%)

X=3 1.27%(X1=1 0.4%, X2b=1 0.4%)

V=2 0.8%

L2=2 0.8%

I=2 0.8%

W1=1 0.8%

D=1 0.8%

Some of the mtDNA was undecided

T/X=11 4.6%

pre Neolithic Iberian mtDNA 15 samples from 20,000-7,500ybp

H=7 46.6%(H1b=2 13.3%, H6=1 6.6%)

U=4 26.6%(U5=2 13.3%(U5b1c2=1 6.6%), U4=1 6.6%)

N=2 13.3%(N5=1 6.6%, N1b=1 6.6%)

R0/HV/H=1 6.6%
R or and decendant of R=1 6.6%
mtDNA R is the mother of most non African mtDNA haplogroups but this one was almost definlley in the Caucasian family so it was either RO/HV/H U/K pre JT/JT/T/J

Y DNA from Neloithic Catolnia Spain 7,000ybp 6 samples

G2a=5, E1b1b V13=1

the mtDNA haplogroups from 236 samples of Iberians from 7,000-4,340ybp is almost completly identical to modern Iberians and most modern Europeans in my other thread i showed 86 mtDNA samples from Germany they are 6,625-4,025ybp they also almost completely match modern Europeans mtDNA http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28809-Middle-to-late-Neolithic-6-625-4-025-year-old-mtDNA-and-Y-DNA-from-German

Surprisingly mtDNA H was also over 40% for pre Neolithic Iberian mtDNA like most modern Europeans but almost all mtDNA from pre Neolithic Europe is U the oldest sample of mtDNA H in Europe is on the south tip of Italy and it is 28,000 years old mtDNA H probably migrated to Europe from its place of origin which is the mid east about 33,000-36,000ybp it would have migrated to Europe right after the time it was born about 36,000-40,000ybp

there is a 20,000-18,000 year old mtDNA sample from solutrian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solutrean
Nerja Spain which is at the southern tip of Spain all they could tell is it was in the[I] RO family mtDNA RO is very old it is about 45,000-50,000 years old today it is almost only found around Arabia and it probaley never migrated to Europe mtDNA RO is the mother of HV and the grandmother of H

mtDNA HV is also very old about 40,000-45,000ybp today it is almost only found around Iraq mtDNA HV did migrate to Europe because it has a daughter mtDNA V which originated in Europe 15,000ybp so this sample had either mtDNA HV or H

there where three mtDNA samples in Cantabrina Magdolnion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalenian
northern Spain from 15,000ybp two had H one of them had mtDNA H6 which today is mainly in eastern Europe this may mean it migrated there from Spain or that it migrated to Spain and is over 15,000 years old one of the samples had mtDNA U5 which is the oldest mtDNA haplogroup to orignate in Europe it is 50,000-55,000 years old

mtDNA H1,H3 and V all are about 15,000 years old, originated in northern Spain, and have similar distribution http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0056775

these mtDNA haplogroups then migrated acroos Europe and north west Africa many experts believe these people are a major ancestral source for all modern Europeans so that makes Spain very important for Europeans ancestry this people group lived during the last ice age alot of Europe was uninhabitable they where taking refuge in Spain experts call it the Iberian refuge http://genome.cshlp.org/content/15/1/19.full

12,000 year old mtDNA 21 samples from Mooroco which is in north west Africa

H/V/U=12, H=4, H/V=3, V=2

the source said HV/H/V/U i changed it because there is no way it could have had HV also one of the samples said R mtDNA R is over 60,000 years old today its subclades only exsist in India and parts of east Asia and Australia but since North Africans are Caucasians there is no way they had R and since mtDNA RO is 50,000 years old and never migrated to North Africa or Europe i knew that was not it so the only possible results are H and V

mtDNA V originated 15,000ybp in the northern Spain so this means those Iberian refuge people did not just migrate across Europe four of the samples had mtDNA H but 14 more could have had H since so many where undecided but H was a possibility in all of them

modern north west Africans have 15-35% mtDNA H1 and H3 the Turags in Libya have 61% mtDNA H1
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0013378 the rest of North Africa and mid east is less 5% uselly less than 1% in the rest of Europe they average about 10-20% it is highest inn northern Spain at 40% and central and southern Scandnavia at 25-35%

also north west Africans have about 5% mtDNA V this haplogroups is almost never found in the mid east and other parts of North Africa it is about 3-5% in Europe and highest in northern Spain at 15-25% and in far northern Scandinavian Sami people at 50%. since 12,000ybp mtDNA in Morocco had V and alot of H these people where probably Spanish immigrants and represent Iberians mtDNA 12,000ybp and they had mainly mtDNA H same with pre Neolithic Iberian remains so Iberian over 12,000ybp probabley had 40-60% mtDNA H

North west Africans also have 1-5% mtDNA U5b which also originated in Europe and is the most popular group for pre Neloithci Europeans the subclade of North African U5b is most relted to Sami in northern Scandnavia the common ancester of north African and Sami U5b is estimated at 9,600ybp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_genetics_of_the_Sami this U5b subclade takes up about 50% of Sami mtDNA this means Sami people and north Africans got their U5b from the Iberian refuge the other 50% of Sami mtDNA is V which also came from the Iberian refuge

so mtDNA haplogroups from this group that spread out of northern Spain 15,000ybp is found all over Europe and north west Africa which means they made migrations in those areas

the oldest human genome was found in northern Spain it is a 7,000 year old hunter gather named La Brana it is unrelated to modern Iberian's and southern Europeans he is most related to northern Europeans mainly Sami and Finnish people

there are genomes of two farmers in Europe one is the famous Otzi the ice man he is 5,300ybp and from alps Italy another is 5,000 years old farmer from south Sweden they where most related to modern southern Europeans mainly Sardinia people they also have Genomes of three hunter gathers in south Sweden from 5,000ybp and La Brana in north Spain 7,000ybp they where all most relted to northern Europeans mainly Sami and finnish people just like

here is the K7b austomnal DNA of them

and this is a link to a website that explians ther austomnal DNA in more depth http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/07/bronze-age-indo-european-invasion-of.html

Sami people have specific mtDNA u5b subclade and V subclade these groups take up 100% of their mtDNA both groups are estimated as 8,000 years old this means Sami people have lived in north Scandinavia for at least 8,000 years and since 100% of their mtDNA comes from that people group that migrated out of Spain 15,000ybp and that they are the closest modern relatives to Genomes of European hunter gathers this could mean Sami people are the closest modern relatives to the Iberian refuge group that migrated across Europe and north Africa 15,000ybp and Sami people are probably from the first Scandinavians 11,000ybp

Iberia has 236 mtDNA samples from the Neolithic age that is way higher than any other region in the world I think it is enough mtDNA to say what haplogroups Neolithic Iberians had it shows they had the same haplogroups as most modern Europeans

And Iberian Ice age refuge 15,000ybp spread alot of mtDNA groups acroos Europe and North west Africa and are probably a major ancestral source of modern Europeans and where probably the first setllers of Scandinavia so Iberia is important for all Europeans ancestry and somewhat important for ancestry of north west Africans

Here are 15,000 year old Magdalonian carvings from La Marche cave in western France near the area of the Iberian refuge so these people in the carvings might be related http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Marche_(cave)

07-07-13, 20:04
general remark concerning the thread title:
what give you the impression that mt DNA did not change between 20000 and 7000 BC???
some people movements can have taken place gradually (and slow genes flow) with mesolithic cultures without leaving too much traces as they did not revolutionate the economy?
by the way, it seems a new lithic thechnic come by South or South East has leaven traces in southern Europe, preceding by a few years the neolithic culture...

Fire Haired
08-07-13, 00:54
the title is saying that the mtDNA haplogroups of 20,000-7,000years old remains in Iberia are the same as modern europeans and to each other

i made a article that shows how mtdna H in europe is Paleolithic and Neolithic http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28829-Strong-Evidence-mtDNA-H-did-not-spread-in-Neolithic-and-was-already-popular-in-Europe

i know things would have changed in 13,000 years but they still had the same basic haplogroups greeks have 40% H just like Norwegian even though each have diff subclades of H if another group migrated or conquered in that 13,000 years from what samples we have it seems they had the same basic haplogroups but maybe diff subclades

another reason i gave it that title is a get sick and tired of people over rating the low amount of mtdna h in prehistoric european remains. i made a thread about it. Most people that study this stuff dont know we have two 25,000 year old h17 samples from european russia, one 28,000 year old H sample from southern Italy, two 15,000 year old H samples one was H6 from northern Spain, seven 9,000-7,0000 year old H samples from Portugal two had H1b. H was defintley in Paloithic Europe it probably first arrived 35,000 years ago i get so annoyed of people the ones who write this article all of these authors copy each other here are some links to them. http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/science/130424/european-genetic-history-mystery-uncovered-using-ancient-dna

I get really P.O.ed when reading these they are spreading lies to people who dont know that much about ancient dna and will believe anything a new article says. They say such crazy things like Europeans ancestors came from teh mid east just 6,600ybp???????????? when they nned to realize even if everyone in europe till 6,000 years ago had mtdna U europeans ancestors have still been in europe for well over 30,000 years. Because austomnal DNA which unlike Y DNA and mtDNA haplogroups tell ur full ancestry Europeans have a unque austomnal DNA type most tests call it north European we have a 7,000 year old hunter gather in north spain he had more north european than almost any modern Europeans this shows Europeans descend from the hunter gathers not farmers, the austomnal DNA we have of farmers they had mainly Mediterranean this sounds strange but Mediterranean is aust. DNA is not european it came in the Neolithic age from the mid east 10,000-6,000ybp

the north european aka european aust. dna group orignated in europe over 30,000ybp. but europeans ancestors probably would have arrived earlier because north euro evolved out of a more ancient aust, dna group that is now extinct. we have 42,000 year old aust, dna from china and it had the ancestral form to modern east asian, native american, and Polynesian aust, dna type.

21-07-13, 00:12
aside my remark concerning "too" fresh dates (7000 BC is not old for me) I agree with you concerning the worth of some papers and news: everytime I read the world "mystery" in a so called scientific abstract, I have a crisis of cough and my eyes get irritated and red, I do not know why...
just a remark again: your texts are a bit better but if you could put a little more points or virgules...
for the most, I agree
have a good Sunday!

Fire Haired
22-07-13, 23:34
what do u mean by virgules

27-07-13, 00:10
french "virgule" is a 'coma' in english accordign to my little dictionary - no great problem, but it helps the understanding as do points -

Fire Haired
27-07-13, 00:35
okay are u from britanny. because i noticed u have r1b l21 which is insular celtic and britanny people migrated to france when germans invaded britain.

28-07-13, 10:55
okay are u from britanny. because i noticed u have r1b l21 which is insular celtic and britanny people migrated to france when germans invaded britain.

my father was from Brittany and I traced my supposed male ligneage (supposed because it is hard sometimes being sure of our fathers ligne...!) in brittophone Brittany gets back until 1725 - my mother was from Ile-de-France (SW, important, because ancient N-E Ile-de-France showed an heavier influence of 'nordic racial' influence (Franks, surely, it is close to S-Picardy, more 'nordic' than central Picardy, Somme, where I think we can see a remnant of Belgae or Celts population) - I ordered a more complete DNA analysis and i wait the results concerning deeper SNPs and autosomals - I wait some Near-Eastern influence in my autosomals from my mother - wait and see...
by the way, Y-R1b-L21/S145 is not always the mark of brittonic or gaelic colonization on the continent - its bearers where yet on the Atlantic shores before going to brittain, I think: so 2 "recent" origins possible here in Brittany: Gallic or pre-Gallic and Britton

01-02-14, 11:57
I put here a link with an abstract concerning Mesolithic and Neolithic mt DNA in Portugal so Iberia - I prefer that rather than to create a new thread, even if I could have found a more appropriate place...


01-02-14, 13:01
I put here a link with an abstract concerning Mesolithic and Neolithic mt DNA in Portugal so Iberia - I prefer that rather than to create a new thread, even if I could have found a more appropriate place...

www.bris.ac.uk/archanth/staff/zilhao/ (http://www.bris.ac.uk/archanth/staff/zilhao/)dna2005.pdf

Could anybody PLEASE explain the Maghrebi mtdna haplogroup U6a in Finistere (Brittany) at 4.5 pc.

There were no "Moors" there!

Maybe U6 developed somewhere in Atlantic Europe not in NW Africa as is often stated.

01-02-14, 13:28
If I don't mistake this mt HG is found too at some similarr rather higher %s in Iberia:
a) the today distribution, strong in N-Africa, is maybe not the proof of an origin in N-Africa -
b) as you I think it is more ancient than Moors!
if truly north-african it could be the reflect of some southern tribes colonizations at Mesolithic but more evidently at early Neolithic (with agriculture) - I don't know what modern scientists (modern is not a proof of more value) think about it but old scholars supposed a 'capsian' introduction in southern Europe - the physical types support that as archeology I think as in S-E Spain, and the presence of some Y-E1b-V81 in western Europe: it is not so amazing, finally

01-02-14, 17:10
Brittany does not have Ydna E1b according to the Eupedia map.

When and how did mtdna U6, female-mediated after all, reach Brittany and also Perigord-Limousin (over 1 pc) too?

01-02-14, 23:54
Brittany does not have Ydna E1b according to the Eupedia map.

When and how did mtdna U6, female-mediated after all, reach Brittany and also Perigord-Limousin (over 1 pc) too?

I agree with you there is here some discrepancy between mt and Y DNA
BUT it is not the first time that this sort of "divorce" between male and female ligneages percentages occur in the human world -
some colonizations were male elite biased! they came with females of same stock but augmented their "herd" with new stranger conquered females in new lands (this comparison with "herd" (or "cattle") will cost me a frontal agression from the feminist combattants (humor)-
I do'nt think there occurred total replacement of first "family" females but the percentages can show big enough differences some generations later between original Y DNA and mt DNA compared to new Y and mt DNA (social political drift, without speake about nautral dirft and selection )- this is yet truer concerning small populations more subjected to hazard drift -
in Brittany as in Atlantic regions the overwhelming domination of Y-R1b cannot for me check a genuine original numeric domination - some biases are required, I believe, to explain that, when apprently Y-R1b is not ancient there
so my try to explain this presence still holds waiting better
good night, oidhche vath

01-02-14, 23:57
when I am on this thread, I red an interesting abstract concerning mt DNA of West compared to East Andalusia, shown in Bernard secher bLOG - I don't know if we are authorized to publish it here, it's the moderators question - I suppose it is if the sources are mentioned and some 'pub' is made for this blog!

Tabaccus Maximus
02-02-14, 00:03
mtDNA 236 samples Iberia from 7,000-4,340 years ago the vast majority of the mtDNA where not well enough perserved to show the subclade like H1 they just had the basic haplogroup H.

Not very convincing that Haplogroup H is Magdalenian Paleolithic.

First of all, it isn't surprising to see Haplogroup H entering Europe at the beginning of Neolithic. It would have spread through the Cardial Ware Culture in the Mediterranean and the Linear Pottery Culture in temperate Europe having come from the East and ultimately the Near East.

Where it is found in the Neolithic, such as Treilleis, France, is with companion male haplogroups associated with the Balkans and Near East where the farmers came from. G, J, E, I2, T, etc.

They were farmers, not brute Iberian mesolithics.

Secondly, the supposed pre-neolithic H samples in Spain are a joke. I've commented on this several times.

1. The coast of Spain is notorious for very unreliable carbon dating for several reasons including its geology. But dating is especially difficult with individuals who in many cases consumed shell fish. In other words, some remains found will appear much older than they are. Chalcolithic remains often located near Megalithic moments and are mistakenly categorized within an older age.
This is especially problematic when the context (a pile of crap on a cave floor) can't be conclusively aged without the use of carbon dating.

2. A number of the H samples are taken from cave floors (like Puglicci in Italy where it turned out "Cromagnon 1" was a mediveal murder victim) Cave floors are impossible to date or contextualize properly, especially those that were discovered a hundred years ago. Context is everything or nothing.

3. A number of the "H positive" samples are based on CRS HVR1 or other outdated methods. They are probably U5 or R* if in fact the remains could be confidently placed within a historical context pre-dating the neolithic.

4. H doesn't fit the LGM expansion theory, assuming something like that took place out of the Iberian peninsula. Where in Western Europe is H found prior to the Neolithic? That's right, and Southern Russia near the upper Caucasus doesn't count.

5. H just isn't panning out in the study of Mesolithic Europeans, overwhelmingly so.

La Brana I wasn't some guy vacationing in Spain, he was most likely a typical man of his time, in that region.

02-02-14, 00:27
You make a valid point about male elite dominance and R1b coming to dominate many areas like Brittany.