US freedom: illusion or reality?

nurset

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US gave us best practice of freedom implementation in the Constitution and laws. But sometimes this freedom turned against the US - Snowden case, Wikileaks, and ...

EU follows US path and it cannot make independent steps. Should Europe copy US behavior?
Here is some problems generated by US democracy:
1. Migrants, assimilation of Arabs, Africans, Asian
2. Budget bubbles
3. LGBT rights, lost of morality
4. Unemployment

 
You forgot to enumerate infinite number of wars in the Middle East. This movie shows us chronology of events. It's a pity that such behavior by the US will probably continue.
 
The U.S. today is less free than prior to 9. 11.
 
US gave us best practice of freedom implementation in the Constitution and laws. But sometimes this freedom turned against the US - Snowden case, Wikileaks, and ...
Total freedom is utopian idea. More important is balance between personal freedom and well functioning, organized country and high standard of living.

EU follows US path and it cannot make independent steps. Should Europe copy US behavior?
Could you list the independent steps EU cannot take without US agreement.

Here is some problems generated by US democracy:
1. Migrants, assimilation of Arabs, Africans, Asian.
All Europeans migrants in the past went through assimilation process, and it always was more voluntary than forced programed assimilation. New emigrants these days enjoy same freedoms as all Americans upon receiving citizenship.
2. Budget bubbles
What this has to do with freedoms?
3. LGBT rights, lost of morality
I'm sorry but you are against personal freedoms my friend. I reckon that your thread is not about lost freedoms, but actually against ongoing social changes that you are so afraid and against.
4. Unemployment
And yet economic level of US citizens is 10-20 times higher in this recession when compared to big depression 80 years ago. Don't you see the economic progress? Besides this is pure economic cyclical issue and has nothing to do with personal freedoms and lack of "morality".

Look at positives of our current western civilization. We live longer than ever, we are richer than our parents (generally speaking), we have better cars, we go on more vacations and further, we have more energy efficient homes, we have smart phones with camera, gps, and thousands of song!, we have fridges that give ice for all the drinks we desire, we can eat food from around the world, we live without flees and lies, we can change countries we live in, and we didn't have a global war for almost 70 years!
I would say that this rampant lack of morality (you are implying) of modern times gave us a lot of benefits. Unparalleled benefits in human history. No ordinary citizen had so good in the past.
Let me twist your thinking around. Maybe our ancestors were immoral and that's why they lived in difficult times, punished by god or whatever. Should we mention no rights for women, constant wars, executions in middle of city square, slavery, etc.
Here is a thought:
Perhaps we are advancing to better morality therefore things are working for us much better than for our ancestors?
 
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Many police departments in the U.S. are corrupt.
 
Many police departments in the U.S. are corrupt.
Many police departments in any country is corrupt, and many other government departments. The only difference is statistical one. US or Sweden (many others), the country can still function in organized and acceptable levels. On other end of spectrum (I don't want to point fingers and single out countries) corruption is so rampant that it paralyzes the whole political and economic systems, deepening countries in mess and poverty.
 
...And yet economic level of US citizens is 10-20 times higher in this recession when compared to big depression 80 years ago. Don't you see the economic progress? Besides this is pure economic cyclical issue and has nothing to do with personal freedoms and lack of "morality". Should we mention no rights for women, constant wars, executions in middle of city square, slavery, etc.
Here is a thought:
Perhaps we are advancing to better morality therefore things are working for us much better than for our ancestors?
Could you site your source on these vastly improved economic figures? I don't think that this "Great Recession" is much different than the "Great Depression". Certainly not by a factor of ten or twenty times. Also, depending on the culture women fared much better than in the ladies of today's western society. It seems the further North one heads (at least in Europe), the better the treatment of women.
 
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/03/long-term-real-growth-in-us-gdp-per-capita-1871-2009/

RealGDPperCapita.png


Also ask yourself a question how many cars ordinary family had way back, refrigerators, computers, telephones, size of a house, how many pairs of shoes, how often they took vacations and how many times they flue on airplane. What was the average weight of a person? This will give you an idea how much food they could afford. How long do they live?
And if family could afford to buy model T, and had their first car, ask yourself what do they got in this car? Compare HP, reliability, AC, Stereo system, power steering, power brakes, weight of a car, safety features, tires, size of car, comfort, heating system/seats, windshield, wipers, suspension, etc, etc. Even if you compare items you could immediately see that even they improved 20 fold.
 
What's that chart look like when factoring in the price of gold? My grandparents and even great parents thought nothing of getting in the car and driving to Florida or California (either option over a thousand mile trip) back in the day. My grandparents could also arrive at the airport, buy a ticket with cash, and fly anywhere in the country they desired with no I.D., no credit card, and most importantly no body searches by the T.S.A. Their cars were also much larger back then and more comfortable. I don't see anything close to a twenty fold increase, sorry. P.S. My grandparents also had bigger houses back then and they all weighed less because there wasn't the GMO bloat we contend with now.
 
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What's that chart look like when factoring in the price of gold? My grandparents and even great parents thought nothing of getting in the car and driving to Florida or California (either option over a thousand mile trip) back in the day. My grandparents could also arrive at the airport, buy a ticket with cash, and fly anywhere in the country they desired with no I.D., no credit card, and most importantly no body searches by the T.S.A. Their cars were also much larger back then and more comfortable. I don't see anything close to a twenty fold increase, sorry. P.S. My grandparents also had bigger houses back then and they all weighed less because there wasn't the GMO bloat we contend with now.

If your grand parents could afford to fly during Great Depression, and didn't lose their big house, then they were not the "average citizens". If you come from similar background, things didn't change 20 fold for you, neither did for queen of England.
Can we use more statistics and less anecdotal statements to get closer to the truth?

If you want the size, you can buy biggest RV these days which is 10 fold bigger to whatever your grand parents could buy during GD. Also our airplanes are 10 times bigger and can lift 20 times more, and fly 5 times faster than in 30s.


Could you find for us any scientific paper proving than GMO is bad for human health. Not bad for bees and environment in general, but for human health. I'm sure I can find many stating that simple overeating is bad for you. By the way, we were talking about Americans being heavier, and it is by extra fat, and not what you call "bloating". And the last time I've checked fat is a storage of extra carbs and fats that one consumes.
 
If your grand parents could afford to fly during Great Depression, and didn't lose their big house, then they were not the "average citizens". If you come from similar background, things didn't change 20 fold for you, neither did for queen of England.
Can we use more statistics and less anecdotal statements to get closer to the truth?

If you want the size, you can buy biggest RV these days which is 10 fold bigger to whatever your grand parents could buy during GD. Also our airplanes are 10 times bigger and can lift 20 times more, and fly 5 times faster than in 30s.


Could you find for us any scientific paper proving than GMO is bad for human health. Not bad for bees and environment in general, but for human health. I'm sure I can find many stating that simple overeating is bad for you. By the way, we were talking about Americans being heavier, and it is by extra fat, and not what you call "bloating". And the last time I've checked fat is a storage of extra carbs and fats that one consumes.
Check out the French studies where the rats were feed only GMO. The poor little guys are riddled with tumors. Europe is well aware of the dangers of Frankenfoods... apparently you can't buy a bag of Fritos in England because British officials won't allow our GMO crud over the border. And you're right... bees (and the environment in general) have no impact on human health. They are a completely unrelated system with no bearing on the well-being of mankind. We can hand pollinate all our crops if need be. Sarcasm off.
 
Check out the French studies where the rats were feed only GMO. The poor little guys are riddled with tumors. Europe is well aware of the dangers of Frankenfoods... apparently you can't buy a bag of Fritos in England because British officials won't allow our GMO crud over the border. And you're right... bees (and the environment in general) have no impact on human health. They are a completely unrelated system with no bearing on the well-being of mankind. We can hand pollinate all our crops if need be. Sarcasm off.
Would you be so kind and post this French study please.

Bees were always dieing from all the pesticides we used through our recent history. GMO are not worse in this regard, I would say better because farmers can't overspray. The recent bee decline is multifactorial involving parasites, fungus, with underlying perhaps bad health of bees caused by mono diet, big fields of one crop instead of variety of plants to feed on. And this is pretty much a consensus of scientists these days. Also cell phone towers have no bearing on bee population.
Bees are essential but not only pollinators in nature, which includes wasps, many flies, plus the wind.
What would you say if we invented crops that don't need pollination and go straight the fruiting cycle? Still no good frankenfood?

Of course I like clean and healthy nature, but in many cases this pure nature isn't good for us. Nature can feed you but also nature can make you sick or kill you. To be true to nature you should stop using technology that harms nature, like soap or washing your clothes. You should embrace flees, lies and bad bugs. They were always companions of humankind, so why not.
We invented DDT and killed many quadrillions or more bugs in one decade, and yet neither life nor nature disappeared in USA, and lifespan of people never stopped rising. Actually thanks to DDT Bad Bugs vanished for 50 years, but now they are back with vangins.
There might be time in close future, when all the bugs/nature come back in full strength, and we apologize to DDT.

It is so easy to praise the nature when one sits in airconditioned and clean house with full belly. Why don't we ask ordinary African who lives in infested by nature house and is constantly hungry, watching his kids dying of malaria or of starvation. What does he think about nature and GMO foods?

Nothing's totally bad and nothing is totally good. Everything needs to be used wisely and with moderation.
 
Would you be so kind and post this French study please.

Bees were always dieing from all the pesticides we used through our recent history. GMO are not worse in this regard, I would say better because farmers can't overspray. The recent bee decline is multifactorial involving parasites, fungus, with underlying perhaps bad health of bees caused by mono diet, big fields of one crop instead of variety of plants to feed on. And this is pretty much a consensus of scientists these days. Also cell phone towers have no bearing on bee population.
Bees are essential but not only pollinators in nature, which includes wasps, many flies, plus the wind.
What would you say if we invented crops that don't need pollination and go straight the fruiting cycle? Still no good frankenfood?

Of course I like clean and healthy nature, but in many cases this pure nature isn't good for us. Nature can feed you but also nature can make you sick or kill you. To be true to nature you should stop using technology that harms nature, like soap or washing your clothes. You should embrace flees, lies and bad bugs. They were always companions of humankind, so why not.
We invented DDT and killed many quadrillions or more bugs in one decade, and yet neither life nor nature disappeared in USA, and lifespan of people never stopped rising. Actually thanks to DDT Bad Bugs vanished for 50 years, but now they are back with vangins.
There might be time in close future, when all the bugs/nature come back in full strength, and we apologize to DDT.

It is so easy to praise the nature when one sits in airconditioned and clean house with full belly. Why don't we ask ordinary African who lives in infested by nature house and is constantly hungry, watching his kids dying of malaria or of starvation. What does he think about nature and GMO foods?

Nothing's totally bad and nothing is totally good. Everything needs to be used wisely and with moderation.
I'm not much of a poster, my apologies. Please google the terms "France" + "rat tumors" and it should pop up. You're correct in mentioning the bee die-off is caused by a few different factors... I'm not blaming GMO because their numbers where in decline before Franken Foods came onto the scene. However, the pesticide effect the GMO are responsible for is NOW IN THE FOOD. How does this begin to qualify as healthy? And DDT weakened bird eggshells, esp. those of apex predators, close to the point of extinction. Please don't espouse the benefits of DDT.
 
And one more small nugget of info. concerning the joys of GMO... the Round-Up resistance GMO was famous for imparting in some crops has now drifted (through pollen) into surrounding weed species so now we have "Fraken Weeds" that no amount of chemicals can control. Hyper-developed nations need to quit battling nature and embrace more traditional farming practices. Death and dying are a part of the human condition... man isn't going to genetically manipulate his way into immortality. It's foolish to think so.
 
And one more small nugget of info. concerning the joys of GMO... the Round-Up resistance GMO was famous for imparting in some crops has now drifted (through pollen) into surrounding weed species so now we have "Fraken Weeds" that no amount of chemicals can control. Hyper-developed nations need to quit battling nature and embrace more traditional farming practices. Death and dying are a part of the human condition... man isn't going to genetically manipulate his way into immortality. It's foolish to think so.
That's how we learn and improve, and invent new herbicides. And where do you think the gene came from in first place? We found it in nature and implemented in our crops. We only sped up evolution.

It was foolish to think that man could fly or go to the moon, or that man can walk around with smart phone.
 
And DDT weakened bird eggshells, esp. those of apex predators, close to the point of extinction. Please don't espouse the benefits of DDT.
Because it was overdone, and later we moved in other extreme banning it. Where is the moderation and common sense?

It is still used in some African countries. You spray minute amounts inside simple huts and you don't have any bugs for half a year! It is a man made miracle.
 
Here is some problems generated by US democracy:
1. Migrants, assimilation of Arabs, Africans, Asian
2. Budget bubbles
3. LGBT rights, lost of morality
4. Unemployment

1. Because of their history, Americans don't understand this thing. In fact, all real Americans (natives) are almost extinct. The proper term would be United-statians. They are formed as a nation from the groups of emigrants from different countries and cultures that went West for different reasons. They are used to a thought of someone becoming an American just by getting a U.S. citizenship. It just doesn't work that way here in the old world. I could get a German citizenship, but I would never fell like a German. Off course I expect to be treated well and have all the civil right as Germans do, but I can never relate to their history or art the way they do. Farther away you go from your own place the custom/tradition discrepancies get harder on you. What would one expect a Pakistani guy to think of Luxembourg Palace, and what would French feel about his need to do salah in the streets when the clock strikes noon? It would be weird for both of them.

Americans don't have a respect for this, and they think can regulate this with strict laws. Their laws define what is acceptable and what is not, and if some ethnic behavior is out of the borders it will be banned and if some is acceptable it will be allowed anytime and anywhere while no one can say anything about it. That way some of the manners/rites/behavior that is related to ethnicity get lost, and after couple of generations, we have U.S. as a big melting pot of nations, where none is really what he is, and everybody is a little of everything. That is the way U.S. is trying to delete the differences among their citizens, and they want to apply the same pattern on Europe. One thing they are missing is that we ARE different and that differences are good. If everything was the same, if the food was the same all over the globe, if all the girls were brown skinned, eyed and haired, the world would be boring. I like to go Italy to see the Pizza tower, and don't want to see it in Istanbul or Tokyo. I like to go Egypt to see pyramids, and I like to hear about their culture and history. I like to see Frenchman talking proudly of the Louvre because he should be. I like to come back from Paris delighted with what I've seen because it can't be seen nowhere else.

Unated-statians think they are doing good, but in fact they are trying to annihilate everything that we worked hard for 5.000 years. Governed by the idea of material gain they want to dissolve our differences, erase borders and thus have an easier approach and better control over the consuments and markets. That's why there is a hard resistance for their ways here on The Old Continent.

I personally think that immigrant policy should be more strict. Local cultures always have difficulties integrating immigrants, but when they come in a high numbers such as they do now days, they even show a lack of will to accept the behavior that is considered normal in the new environment. Also, we don't let in old people, sick, illiterate, convicts, etc. Immigrants are usually people with substantial health, money, or education. When they come to work or live into "developed" part of the world, they leave their own country lacking one of the productive members, which leads to further degradation of their own society. Of course, they send some money they earn here to their families over there, thus raising GNI, but that's not a permanent solution.


2. It seems that U.S. Federal Reserve Bank was taken over by some individuals about 100 years ago, which are using it to gain more wealth. Everything that happens with the budget could very likely be their fault.


3. It was considered as an undesirable sexual deviation for like hundreds of years in the modern societies, and now someone says it's the opposite and slip-slides it into same category as all basic human rights. It is even punishable to questions this. Well, I have an issue about this one, because I don't think there should be anything that is not allowed to be questioned.

Anyway, LGBT are just used for weakening conservatives which are the main obstacle for penetration of Unated-statian culture and their way of life into European societies. We already speak English, drink Coca-Cola, eat at McDonald's, wear jeans, listen to their music and watch their movies. That's what we have in common. More things we have in common the easier will be to erase the borders among us. Once the borders are down, they won't have to bother with locals because EU legislature will let them do what they want, wherever they want.

LGBT are used to provoke the reaction on the Conservative side and make it easier to pinpoint and eliminate their leaders and promoters. Once headless and forceless, the conservatives will no longer be a threat with their anti-globalistic ideas. So, in the end, the battle against LGBT has nothing to do with human rights or sex, but against the slavery. Poor LGBT are just being used as marines, and they are taking all the bullets.


4. Well, the planet is finite, and so is the number of countries. We can't all have a positive economic surplus, it's not mathematically possible. While some are in great plus, other are in subzero region, and are in serious problems:
" The United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization estimates that nearly 870 million people, or one in eight people in the world, were suffering from chronic undernourishment in 2010-2012... Children are the most visible victims of undernutrition. Children who are poorly nourished suffer up to 160 days of illness each year. "

There is much more to say about this, but if we were not unappeasable, world could be much better place. Main problem is that spiritually unfulfilled persons are trying to fill that void with money. I'm sorry to say, but almost everything LeBrok stated as a benefits of civilization are in fact sideways. Yes, we have all that, but we are still unsatisfied, and will be even with more because we have a problem with ourselves. Once we find what we are looking for, we will no longer care for those things. There were days when people were happy even without a car, without a cellphone, or mp3-player. It suddenly became impossible to live without all that and call yourself a human?
 
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1. Because of their history, Americans don't understand this thing. In fact, all real Americans (natives) are almost extinct. The proper term would be United-statians. They are formed as a nation from the groups of emigrants from different countries and cultures that went West for different reasons. They are used to a thought of someone becoming an American just by getting a U.S. citizenship. It just doesn't work that way here in the old world. I could get a German citizenship, but I would never fell like a German. Off course I expect to be treated well and have all the civil right as Germans do, but I can never relate to their history or art the way they do. Farther away you go from your own place the custom/tradition discrepancies get harder on you. What would one expect a Pakistani guy to think of Luxembourg Palace, and what would French feel about his need to do salah in the streets when the clock strikes noon? It would be weird for both of them.
Have you ever lived in America? I can feel strong Serbian animosity towards USA in your post.
There is 3-4 million natives in USA and about 1 million in Canada. It is hard to say if recent population bigger or smaller than original because there are no valid figures to start with.



There is much more to say about this, but if we were not unappeasable, world could be much better place. Main problem is that spiritually unfulfilled persons are trying to fill that void with money. I'm sorry to say, but almost everything LeBrok stated as a benefits of civilization are in fact sideways. Yes, we have all that, but we are still unsatisfied,
You shouldn't mix facts and statistics with personal feelings. Nobody can help that you are not satisfied with what you have. You can blame your genetics or upbringing. :)



and will be even with more because we have a problem with ourselves. Once we find what we are looking for, we will no longer care for those things. There were days when people were happy even without a car, without a cellphone, or mp3-player. It suddenly became impossible to live without all that and call yourself a human?
I'm sure people experienced happiness even living in caves for thousands of years. Obviously you don't appreciate what civilization brings for humankind, so please feel free to go back to basics. I will support your choice as a free man. Don't forget to bring laptop to your cave to let us know how you feel. :)
Later
 
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1. Because of their history, Americans don't understand this thing. They are formed as a nation from the groups of emigrants from different countries and cultures that went West for different reasons
.

Reasons such as lack of opportunities, famine, religious persecution.. etc etc.. encountered in the past in the good"old world" I think their "history" helps them understand just fine.




They are used to a thought of someone becoming an American just by getting a U.S. citizenship

And by this you mean they have the same rights and freedoms, and protection under the law, as all American citizens....and your problem with this is what exactly? Are you saying they should look on these new people as less than anyone else, deny them the rights that being an American citizen entitles them to..in essence "think" of them as not an American?


.
It just doesn't work that way here in the old world. I could get a German citizenship, but I would never fell like a German.Off course I expect to be treated well and have all the civil right as Germans do, but I can never relate to their history or art the way they do.

Do not measure what others may be able to feel or accept against your inability to do so. Many people from different countries have gone to America, kept respect for their customs whilst having no problems in seeing themselves as American citizens also. As for the art ..there are, as you say, immigrants from many countries in America.. I should think it not too hard to find art or music to suit all tastes..it has variety.
If you feel you could relate to so little in Germany as a German citizen...then why would you contemplate it at all?



.
Americans don't have a respect for this, and they think can regulate this with strict laws. Their laws define what is acceptable and what is not, and if some ethnic behavior is out of the borders it will be banned and if some is acceptable it will be allowed anytime and anywhere while no one can say anything about it..

Not sure what type of "ethnic behaviour you are talking about here..could you be more precise.

When they come to work or live into "developed" part of the world, they leave their own country lacking one of the productive members,.

Sounds pretty much like an excuse to have them not come. What if they cannot get work, education or health care in their own countries, due to wars or ethnic persecution?



2. It seems that U.S. Federal Reserve Bank was taken over by some individuals about 100 years ago, which are using it to gain more wealth. Everything that happens with the budget could very likely be their fault..

Well is it or is it not?...surely you have a better debate and sources other than "likely".


3. It was considered as an undesirable sexual deviation for like hundreds of years in the modern societies, and now someone says it's the opposite and slip-slides it into same category as all basic human rights. It is even punishable to questions this. Well, I have an issue about this one, because I don't think there should be anything that is not allowed to be questioned.

No, I agree, one should be allowed to ask questions. Which questions do you have in mind?.
Also, nice to note if you take German citizenship [although goodness knows why, as you would have so much trouble adjusting, it seems] you would expect full rights as such. However you are not so generous as to allow others such rights, unless it gets "slip-sided" in.



4. Well, the planet is finite, and so is the number of countries. We can't all have a positive economic surplus, it's not mathematically possible. While some are in great plus, other are in subzero region, and are in serious problems:
" The United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization estimates that nearly 870 million people, or one in eight people in the world, were suffering from chronic undernourishment in 2010-2012... Children are the most visible victims of undernutrition. Children who are poorly nourished suffer up to 160 days of illness each year. "

I agree here...much more needs to done to address this problem.

There were days when people were happy even without a car, without a cellphone, or mp3-player. It suddenly became impossible to live without all that and call yourself a human?

Yes, but had it remained so you would not now have the ability to air these views in the same wide way
 
1. Have you ever lived in America? I can feel strong Serbian animosity towards USA in your post.
There is 3-4 million natives in USA and about 1 million in Canada. It is hard to say if recent population bigger or smaller than original because there are no valid figures to start with.

2. You shouldn't mix facts and statistics with personal feelings. Nobody can help that you are not satisfied with what you have. You can blame your genetics or upbringing. :)


3. I'm sure people experienced happiness even living in caves for thousands of years. Obviously you don't appreciate what civilization brings for humankind, so please feel free to go back to basics. I will support your choice as a free man. Don't forget to bring laptop to your cave to let us know how you feel. :)
Later

1. No, this has nothing to do with the issues I have with US government. Things get much more complex if we isolate just Serbia an US, so I wouldn't get into that on this thread. This is the policy that US and like-minded are conducting all over the world.

As for number of Indians in America current consensus is about 50 millions in 1492, with minimal estimate at 10 millions. That's why I used the terminology I did.


2. I'm pretty much satisfied with the way I live, don't know where you got the wrong impression. I'm dissatisfied when someone else is trying to inflict on me how I should live. U.S. have a very strong opinion that only they know what is right and that everyone should be living the way they do, because - It is the right way.


3. In Sheldonian words, this is "the logical fallacy of extending someone's argument to ridiculous proportions and then criticizing the result." I would do the same if I told you to superglue yourself to your chair, in front of your laptop, and never come out into the sun light. That's just not a proactive conversation.

When you say 'civilization', do you really mean 'western civilization'? You have to understand that there are people in the world that have different priorities and approach to life. I don't neglect all the achievement of your civilization, but I neglect the need to embrace them all at once and forget everything I was ever taught which has worked here for thousands of years.

In my opinion western civilization is nowdays obsessed with money and is weighing everything through the prism of economic gain. Maybe it works for you, but not here. Only thing we got from that in whole Yugoslavia is bunch of criminals that are using guns, power, force, extortion and bribery, to raise themselves up according to those new standards of success. In fact, I will go that far to say that communism worked better for us, because there was a limitation on a private property for a person, so they could not appropriate an estate that easy. Now we have ended up with local landlords owing half of the country, and facts are coming out that they are not even the real owners, but they were bying on behalf of a secret foreign investors.

So, what should I say to them? Thank you for starting a war here, making properties value go down, buying them at low prices, and now owning half of my country (with 5 or 6 neighboring that emerged from the process)? No, I don't consider that a civilization. That is what I'm dissatisfied with!

p.s. That was just a rhetorical exclamation mark :)
 

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