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nurset
05-07-13, 14:32
US gave us best practice of freedom implementation in the Constitution and laws. But sometimes this freedom turned against the US - Snowden case, Wikileaks, and ...

EU follows US path and it cannot make independent steps. Should Europe copy US behavior?
Here is some problems generated by US democracy:
1. Migrants, assimilation of Arabs, Africans, Asian
2. Budget bubbles
3. LGBT rights, lost of morality
4. Unemployment


http://youtu.be/Z0yH9KMFOYg

Mmuller
08-07-13, 09:07
You forgot to enumerate infinite number of wars in the Middle East. This movie shows us chronology of events. It's a pity that such behavior by the US will probably continue.

Cambrius (The Red)
08-07-13, 21:38
The U.S. today is less free than prior to 9. 11.

LeBrok
09-07-13, 06:48
US gave us best practice of freedom implementation in the Constitution and laws. But sometimes this freedom turned against the US - Snowden case, Wikileaks, and ...
Total freedom is utopian idea. More important is balance between personal freedom and well functioning, organized country and high standard of living.


EU follows US path and it cannot make independent steps. Should Europe copy US behavior? Could you list the independent steps EU cannot take without US agreement.


Here is some problems generated by US democracy:
1. Migrants, assimilation of Arabs, Africans, Asian. All Europeans migrants in the past went through assimilation process, and it always was more voluntary than forced programed assimilation. New emigrants these days enjoy same freedoms as all Americans upon receiving citizenship.

2. Budget bubblesWhat this has to do with freedoms?

3. LGBT rights, lost of morality I'm sorry but you are against personal freedoms my friend. I reckon that your thread is not about lost freedoms, but actually against ongoing social changes that you are so afraid and against.

4. Unemployment And yet economic level of US citizens is 10-20 times higher in this recession when compared to big depression 80 years ago. Don't you see the economic progress? Besides this is pure economic cyclical issue and has nothing to do with personal freedoms and lack of "morality".

Look at positives of our current western civilization. We live longer than ever, we are richer than our parents (generally speaking), we have better cars, we go on more vacations and further, we have more energy efficient homes, we have smart phones with camera, gps, and thousands of song!, we have fridges that give ice for all the drinks we desire, we can eat food from around the world, we live without flees and lies, we can change countries we live in, and we didn't have a global war for almost 70 years!
I would say that this rampant lack of morality (you are implying) of modern times gave us a lot of benefits. Unparalleled benefits in human history. No ordinary citizen had so good in the past.
Let me twist your thinking around. Maybe our ancestors were immoral and that's why they lived in difficult times, punished by god or whatever. Should we mention no rights for women, constant wars, executions in middle of city square, slavery, etc.
Here is a thought:
Perhaps we are advancing to better morality therefore things are working for us much better than for our ancestors?

Cambrius (The Red)
10-07-13, 22:38
Many police departments in the U.S. are corrupt.

LeBrok
11-07-13, 03:06
Many police departments in the U.S. are corrupt.
Many police departments in any country is corrupt, and many other government departments. The only difference is statistical one. US or Sweden (many others), the country can still function in organized and acceptable levels. On other end of spectrum (I don't want to point fingers and single out countries) corruption is so rampant that it paralyzes the whole political and economic systems, deepening countries in mess and poverty.

nordicquarreler
11-07-13, 15:14
...And yet economic level of US citizens is 10-20 times higher in this recession when compared to big depression 80 years ago. Don't you see the economic progress? Besides this is pure economic cyclical issue and has nothing to do with personal freedoms and lack of "morality". Should we mention no rights for women, constant wars, executions in middle of city square, slavery, etc.
Here is a thought:
Perhaps we are advancing to better morality therefore things are working for us much better than for our ancestors?Could you site your source on these vastly improved economic figures? I don't think that this "Great Recession" is much different than the "Great Depression". Certainly not by a factor of ten or twenty times. Also, depending on the culture women fared much better than in the ladies of today's western society. It seems the further North one heads (at least in Europe), the better the treatment of women.

LeBrok
11-07-13, 17:59
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/03/long-term-real-growth-in-us-gdp-per-capita-1871-2009/

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/RealGDPperCapita.png

Also ask yourself a question how many cars ordinary family had way back, refrigerators, computers, telephones, size of a house, how many pairs of shoes, how often they took vacations and how many times they flue on airplane. What was the average weight of a person? This will give you an idea how much food they could afford. How long do they live?
And if family could afford to buy model T, and had their first car, ask yourself what do they got in this car? Compare HP, reliability, AC, Stereo system, power steering, power brakes, weight of a car, safety features, tires, size of car, comfort, heating system/seats, windshield, wipers, suspension, etc, etc. Even if you compare items you could immediately see that even they improved 20 fold.

nordicquarreler
12-07-13, 09:55
What's that chart look like when factoring in the price of gold? My grandparents and even great parents thought nothing of getting in the car and driving to Florida or California (either option over a thousand mile trip) back in the day. My grandparents could also arrive at the airport, buy a ticket with cash, and fly anywhere in the country they desired with no I.D., no credit card, and most importantly no body searches by the T.S.A. Their cars were also much larger back then and more comfortable. I don't see anything close to a twenty fold increase, sorry. P.S. My grandparents also had bigger houses back then and they all weighed less because there wasn't the GMO bloat we contend with now.

LeBrok
12-07-13, 17:34
What's that chart look like when factoring in the price of gold? My grandparents and even great parents thought nothing of getting in the car and driving to Florida or California (either option over a thousand mile trip) back in the day. My grandparents could also arrive at the airport, buy a ticket with cash, and fly anywhere in the country they desired with no I.D., no credit card, and most importantly no body searches by the T.S.A. Their cars were also much larger back then and more comfortable. I don't see anything close to a twenty fold increase, sorry. P.S. My grandparents also had bigger houses back then and they all weighed less because there wasn't the GMO bloat we contend with now.

If your grand parents could afford to fly during Great Depression, and didn't lose their big house, then they were not the "average citizens". If you come from similar background, things didn't change 20 fold for you, neither did for queen of England.
Can we use more statistics and less anecdotal statements to get closer to the truth?

If you want the size, you can buy biggest RV these days which is 10 fold bigger to whatever your grand parents could buy during GD. Also our airplanes are 10 times bigger and can lift 20 times more, and fly 5 times faster than in 30s.


Could you find for us any scientific paper proving than GMO is bad for human health. Not bad for bees and environment in general, but for human health. I'm sure I can find many stating that simple overeating is bad for you. By the way, we were talking about Americans being heavier, and it is by extra fat, and not what you call "bloating". And the last time I've checked fat is a storage of extra carbs and fats that one consumes.

nordicquarreler
13-07-13, 04:55
If your grand parents could afford to fly during Great Depression, and didn't lose their big house, then they were not the "average citizens". If you come from similar background, things didn't change 20 fold for you, neither did for queen of England.
Can we use more statistics and less anecdotal statements to get closer to the truth?

If you want the size, you can buy biggest RV these days which is 10 fold bigger to whatever your grand parents could buy during GD. Also our airplanes are 10 times bigger and can lift 20 times more, and fly 5 times faster than in 30s.


Could you find for us any scientific paper proving than GMO is bad for human health. Not bad for bees and environment in general, but for human health. I'm sure I can find many stating that simple overeating is bad for you. By the way, we were talking about Americans being heavier, and it is by extra fat, and not what you call "bloating". And the last time I've checked fat is a storage of extra carbs and fats that one consumes. Check out the French studies where the rats were feed only GMO. The poor little guys are riddled with tumors. Europe is well aware of the dangers of Frankenfoods... apparently you can't buy a bag of Fritos in England because British officials won't allow our GMO crud over the border. And you're right... bees (and the environment in general) have no impact on human health. They are a completely unrelated system with no bearing on the well-being of mankind. We can hand pollinate all our crops if need be. Sarcasm off.

LeBrok
13-07-13, 09:22
Check out the French studies where the rats were feed only GMO. The poor little guys are riddled with tumors. Europe is well aware of the dangers of Frankenfoods... apparently you can't buy a bag of Fritos in England because British officials won't allow our GMO crud over the border. And you're right... bees (and the environment in general) have no impact on human health. They are a completely unrelated system with no bearing on the well-being of mankind. We can hand pollinate all our crops if need be. Sarcasm off.
Would you be so kind and post this French study please.

Bees were always dieing from all the pesticides we used through our recent history. GMO are not worse in this regard, I would say better because farmers can't overspray. The recent bee decline is multifactorial involving parasites, fungus, with underlying perhaps bad health of bees caused by mono diet, big fields of one crop instead of variety of plants to feed on. And this is pretty much a consensus of scientists these days. Also cell phone towers have no bearing on bee population.
Bees are essential but not only pollinators in nature, which includes wasps, many flies, plus the wind.
What would you say if we invented crops that don't need pollination and go straight the fruiting cycle? Still no good frankenfood?

Of course I like clean and healthy nature, but in many cases this pure nature isn't good for us. Nature can feed you but also nature can make you sick or kill you. To be true to nature you should stop using technology that harms nature, like soap or washing your clothes. You should embrace flees, lies and bad bugs. They were always companions of humankind, so why not.
We invented DDT and killed many quadrillions or more bugs in one decade, and yet neither life nor nature disappeared in USA, and lifespan of people never stopped rising. Actually thanks to DDT Bad Bugs vanished for 50 years, but now they are back with vangins.
There might be time in close future, when all the bugs/nature come back in full strength, and we apologize to DDT.

It is so easy to praise the nature when one sits in airconditioned and clean house with full belly. Why don't we ask ordinary African who lives in infested by nature house and is constantly hungry, watching his kids dying of malaria or of starvation. What does he think about nature and GMO foods?

Nothing's totally bad and nothing is totally good. Everything needs to be used wisely and with moderation.

nordicquarreler
13-07-13, 11:46
Would you be so kind and post this French study please.

Bees were always dieing from all the pesticides we used through our recent history. GMO are not worse in this regard, I would say better because farmers can't overspray. The recent bee decline is multifactorial involving parasites, fungus, with underlying perhaps bad health of bees caused by mono diet, big fields of one crop instead of variety of plants to feed on. And this is pretty much a consensus of scientists these days. Also cell phone towers have no bearing on bee population.
Bees are essential but not only pollinators in nature, which includes wasps, many flies, plus the wind.
What would you say if we invented crops that don't need pollination and go straight the fruiting cycle? Still no good frankenfood?

Of course I like clean and healthy nature, but in many cases this pure nature isn't good for us. Nature can feed you but also nature can make you sick or kill you. To be true to nature you should stop using technology that harms nature, like soap or washing your clothes. You should embrace flees, lies and bad bugs. They were always companions of humankind, so why not.
We invented DDT and killed many quadrillions or more bugs in one decade, and yet neither life nor nature disappeared in USA, and lifespan of people never stopped rising. Actually thanks to DDT Bad Bugs vanished for 50 years, but now they are back with vangins.
There might be time in close future, when all the bugs/nature come back in full strength, and we apologize to DDT.

It is so easy to praise the nature when one sits in airconditioned and clean house with full belly. Why don't we ask ordinary African who lives in infested by nature house and is constantly hungry, watching his kids dying of malaria or of starvation. What does he think about nature and GMO foods?

Nothing's totally bad and nothing is totally good. Everything needs to be used wisely and with moderation. I'm not much of a poster, my apologies. Please google the terms "France" + "rat tumors" and it should pop up. You're correct in mentioning the bee die-off is caused by a few different factors... I'm not blaming GMO because their numbers where in decline before Franken Foods came onto the scene. However, the pesticide effect the GMO are responsible for is NOW IN THE FOOD. How does this begin to qualify as healthy? And DDT weakened bird eggshells, esp. those of apex predators, close to the point of extinction. Please don't espouse the benefits of DDT.

nordicquarreler
13-07-13, 11:56
And one more small nugget of info. concerning the joys of GMO... the Round-Up resistance GMO was famous for imparting in some crops has now drifted (through pollen) into surrounding weed species so now we have "Fraken Weeds" that no amount of chemicals can control. Hyper-developed nations need to quit battling nature and embrace more traditional farming practices. Death and dying are a part of the human condition... man isn't going to genetically manipulate his way into immortality. It's foolish to think so.

LeBrok
13-07-13, 17:37
And one more small nugget of info. concerning the joys of GMO... the Round-Up resistance GMO was famous for imparting in some crops has now drifted (through pollen) into surrounding weed species so now we have "Fraken Weeds" that no amount of chemicals can control. Hyper-developed nations need to quit battling nature and embrace more traditional farming practices. Death and dying are a part of the human condition... man isn't going to genetically manipulate his way into immortality. It's foolish to think so.
That's how we learn and improve, and invent new herbicides. And where do you think the gene came from in first place? We found it in nature and implemented in our crops. We only sped up evolution.

It was foolish to think that man could fly or go to the moon, or that man can walk around with smart phone.

LeBrok
13-07-13, 17:44
And DDT weakened bird eggshells, esp. those of apex predators, close to the point of extinction. Please don't espouse the benefits of DDT.
Because it was overdone, and later we moved in other extreme banning it. Where is the moderation and common sense?

It is still used in some African countries. You spray minute amounts inside simple huts and you don't have any bugs for half a year! It is a man made miracle.

Ike
13-07-13, 18:47
Here is some problems generated by US democracy:
1. Migrants, assimilation of Arabs, Africans, Asian
2. Budget bubbles
3. LGBT rights, lost of morality
4. Unemployment


1. Because of their history, Americans don't understand this thing. In fact, all real Americans (natives) are almost extinct. The proper term would be United-statians. They are formed as a nation from the groups of emigrants from different countries and cultures that went West for different reasons. They are used to a thought of someone becoming an American just by getting a U.S. citizenship. It just doesn't work that way here in the old world. I could get a German citizenship, but I would never fell like a German. Off course I expect to be treated well and have all the civil right as Germans do, but I can never relate to their history or art the way they do. Farther away you go from your own place the custom/tradition discrepancies get harder on you. What would one expect a Pakistani guy to think of Luxembourg Palace, and what would French feel about his need to do salah in the streets when the clock strikes noon? It would be weird for both of them.

Americans don't have a respect for this, and they think can regulate this with strict laws. Their laws define what is acceptable and what is not, and if some ethnic behavior is out of the borders it will be banned and if some is acceptable it will be allowed anytime and anywhere while no one can say anything about it. That way some of the manners/rites/behavior that is related to ethnicity get lost, and after couple of generations, we have U.S. as a big melting pot of nations, where none is really what he is, and everybody is a little of everything. That is the way U.S. is trying to delete the differences among their citizens, and they want to apply the same pattern on Europe. One thing they are missing is that we ARE different and that differences are good. If everything was the same, if the food was the same all over the globe, if all the girls were brown skinned, eyed and haired, the world would be boring. I like to go Italy to see the Pizza tower, and don't want to see it in Istanbul or Tokyo. I like to go Egypt to see pyramids, and I like to hear about their culture and history. I like to see Frenchman talking proudly of the Louvre because he should be. I like to come back from Paris delighted with what I've seen because it can't be seen nowhere else.

Unated-statians think they are doing good, but in fact they are trying to annihilate everything that we worked hard for 5.000 years. Governed by the idea of material gain they want to dissolve our differences, erase borders and thus have an easier approach and better control over the consuments and markets. That's why there is a hard resistance for their ways here on The Old Continent.

I personally think that immigrant policy should be more strict. Local cultures always have difficulties integrating immigrants, but when they come in a high numbers such as they do now days, they even show a lack of will to accept the behavior that is considered normal in the new environment. Also, we don't let in old people, sick, illiterate, convicts, etc. Immigrants are usually people with substantial health, money, or education. When they come to work or live into "developed" part of the world, they leave their own country lacking one of the productive members, which leads to further degradation of their own society. Of course, they send some money they earn here to their families over there, thus raising GNI, but that's not a permanent solution.


2. It seems that U.S. Federal Reserve Bank was taken over by some individuals about 100 years ago, which are using it to gain more wealth. Everything that happens with the budget could very likely be their fault.


3. It was considered as an undesirable sexual deviation for like hundreds of years in the modern societies, and now someone says it's the opposite and slip-slides it into same category as all basic human rights. It is even punishable to questions this. Well, I have an issue about this one, because I don't think there should be anything that is not allowed to be questioned.

Anyway, LGBT are just used for weakening conservatives which are the main obstacle for penetration of Unated-statian culture and their way of life into European societies. We already speak English, drink Coca-Cola, eat at McDonald's, wear jeans, listen to their music and watch their movies. That's what we have in common. More things we have in common the easier will be to erase the borders among us. Once the borders are down, they won't have to bother with locals because EU legislature will let them do what they want, wherever they want.

LGBT are used to provoke the reaction on the Conservative side and make it easier to pinpoint and eliminate their leaders and promoters. Once headless and forceless, the conservatives will no longer be a threat with their anti-globalistic ideas. So, in the end, the battle against LGBT has nothing to do with human rights or sex, but against the slavery. Poor LGBT are just being used as marines, and they are taking all the bullets.


4. Well, the planet is finite, and so is the number of countries. We can't all have a positive economic surplus, it's not mathematically possible. While some are in great plus, other are in subzero region, and are in serious problems:
" The United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization estimates that nearly 870 million people, or one in eight people in the world, were suffering from chronic undernourishment in 2010-2012... Children are the most visible victims of undernutrition. Children who are poorly nourished suffer up to 160 days of illness each year. "

There is much more to say about this, but if we were not unappeasable, world could be much better place. Main problem is that spiritually unfulfilled persons are trying to fill that void with money. I'm sorry to say, but almost everything LeBrok stated as a benefits of civilization are in fact sideways. Yes, we have all that, but we are still unsatisfied, and will be even with more because we have a problem with ourselves. Once we find what we are looking for, we will no longer care for those things. There were days when people were happy even without a car, without a cellphone, or mp3-player. It suddenly became impossible to live without all that and call yourself a human?

LeBrok
14-07-13, 02:51
1. Because of their history, Americans don't understand this thing. In fact, all real Americans (natives) are almost extinct. The proper term would be United-statians. They are formed as a nation from the groups of emigrants from different countries and cultures that went West for different reasons. They are used to a thought of someone becoming an American just by getting a U.S. citizenship. It just doesn't work that way here in the old world. I could get a German citizenship, but I would never fell like a German. Off course I expect to be treated well and have all the civil right as Germans do, but I can never relate to their history or art the way they do. Farther away you go from your own place the custom/tradition discrepancies get harder on you. What would one expect a Pakistani guy to think of Luxembourg Palace, and what would French feel about his need to do salah in the streets when the clock strikes noon? It would be weird for both of them.
Have you ever lived in America? I can feel strong Serbian animosity towards USA in your post.
There is 3-4 million natives in USA and about 1 million in Canada. It is hard to say if recent population bigger or smaller than original because there are no valid figures to start with.




There is much more to say about this, but if we were not unappeasable, world could be much better place. Main problem is that spiritually unfulfilled persons are trying to fill that void with money. I'm sorry to say, but almost everything LeBrok stated as a benefits of civilization are in fact sideways. Yes, we have all that, but we are still unsatisfied,
You shouldn't mix facts and statistics with personal feelings. Nobody can help that you are not satisfied with what you have. You can blame your genetics or upbringing. :)




and will be even with more because we have a problem with ourselves. Once we find what we are looking for, we will no longer care for those things. There were days when people were happy even without a car, without a cellphone, or mp3-player. It suddenly became impossible to live without all that and call yourself a human?
I'm sure people experienced happiness even living in caves for thousands of years. Obviously you don't appreciate what civilization brings for humankind, so please feel free to go back to basics. I will support your choice as a free man. Don't forget to bring laptop to your cave to let us know how you feel. :)
Later

hope
14-07-13, 05:36
1. Because of their history, Americans don't understand this thing. They are formed as a nation from the groups of emigrants from different countries and cultures that went West for different reasons.

Reasons such as lack of opportunities, famine, religious persecution.. etc etc.. encountered in the past in the good"old world" I think their "history" helps them understand just fine.





They are used to a thought of someone becoming an American just by getting a U.S. citizenship

And by this you mean they have the same rights and freedoms, and protection under the law, as all American citizens....and your problem with this is what exactly? Are you saying they should look on these new people as less than anyone else, deny them the rights that being an American citizen entitles them to..in essence "think" of them as not an American?


.
It just doesn't work that way here in the old world. I could get a German citizenship, but I would never fell like a German.Off course I expect to be treated well and have all the civil right as Germans do, but I can never relate to their history or art the way they do.

Do not measure what others may be able to feel or accept against your inability to do so. Many people from different countries have gone to America, kept respect for their customs whilst having no problems in seeing themselves as American citizens also. As for the art ..there are, as you say, immigrants from many countries in America.. I should think it not too hard to find art or music to suit all tastes..it has variety.
If you feel you could relate to so little in Germany as a German citizen...then why would you contemplate it at all?



.
Americans don't have a respect for this, and they think can regulate this with strict laws. Their laws define what is acceptable and what is not, and if some ethnic behavior is out of the borders it will be banned and if some is acceptable it will be allowed anytime and anywhere while no one can say anything about it..

Not sure what type of "ethnic behaviour you are talking about here..could you be more precise.


When they come to work or live into "developed" part of the world, they leave their own country lacking one of the productive members,.

Sounds pretty much like an excuse to have them not come. What if they cannot get work, education or health care in their own countries, due to wars or ethnic persecution?




2. It seems that U.S. Federal Reserve Bank was taken over by some individuals about 100 years ago, which are using it to gain more wealth. Everything that happens with the budget could very likely be their fault..

Well is it or is it not?...surely you have a better debate and sources other than "likely".



3. It was considered as an undesirable sexual deviation for like hundreds of years in the modern societies, and now someone says it's the opposite and slip-slides it into same category as all basic human rights. It is even punishable to questions this. Well, I have an issue about this one, because I don't think there should be anything that is not allowed to be questioned.

No, I agree, one should be allowed to ask questions. Which questions do you have in mind?.
Also, nice to note if you take German citizenship [although goodness knows why, as you would have so much trouble adjusting, it seems] you would expect full rights as such. However you are not so generous as to allow others such rights, unless it gets "slip-sided" in.




4. Well, the planet is finite, and so is the number of countries. We can't all have a positive economic surplus, it's not mathematically possible. While some are in great plus, other are in subzero region, and are in serious problems:
" The United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization estimates that nearly 870 million people, or one in eight people in the world, were suffering from chronic undernourishment in 2010-2012... Children are the most visible victims of undernutrition. Children who are poorly nourished suffer up to 160 days of illness each year. "

I agree here...much more needs to done to address this problem.


There were days when people were happy even without a car, without a cellphone, or mp3-player. It suddenly became impossible to live without all that and call yourself a human?

Yes, but had it remained so you would not now have the ability to air these views in the same wide way

Ike
14-07-13, 06:10
1. Have you ever lived in America? I can feel strong Serbian animosity towards USA in your post.
There is 3-4 million natives in USA and about 1 million in Canada. It is hard to say if recent population bigger or smaller than original because there are no valid figures to start with.

2. You shouldn't mix facts and statistics with personal feelings. Nobody can help that you are not satisfied with what you have. You can blame your genetics or upbringing. :)


3. I'm sure people experienced happiness even living in caves for thousands of years. Obviously you don't appreciate what civilization brings for humankind, so please feel free to go back to basics. I will support your choice as a free man. Don't forget to bring laptop to your cave to let us know how you feel. :)
Later

1. No, this has nothing to do with the issues I have with US government. Things get much more complex if we isolate just Serbia an US, so I wouldn't get into that on this thread. This is the policy that US and like-minded are conducting all over the world.

As for number of Indians in America current consensus is about 50 millions in 1492, with minimal estimate at 10 millions. That's why I used the terminology I did.


2. I'm pretty much satisfied with the way I live, don't know where you got the wrong impression. I'm dissatisfied when someone else is trying to inflict on me how I should live. U.S. have a very strong opinion that only they know what is right and that everyone should be living the way they do, because - It is the right way.


3. In Sheldonian words, this is "the logical fallacy of extending someone's argument to ridiculous proportions and then criticizing the result." I would do the same if I told you to superglue yourself to your chair, in front of your laptop, and never come out into the sun light. That's just not a proactive conversation.

When you say 'civilization', do you really mean 'western civilization'? You have to understand that there are people in the world that have different priorities and approach to life. I don't neglect all the achievement of your civilization, but I neglect the need to embrace them all at once and forget everything I was ever taught which has worked here for thousands of years.

In my opinion western civilization is nowdays obsessed with money and is weighing everything through the prism of economic gain. Maybe it works for you, but not here. Only thing we got from that in whole Yugoslavia is bunch of criminals that are using guns, power, force, extortion and bribery, to raise themselves up according to those new standards of success. In fact, I will go that far to say that communism worked better for us, because there was a limitation on a private property for a person, so they could not appropriate an estate that easy. Now we have ended up with local landlords owing half of the country, and facts are coming out that they are not even the real owners, but they were bying on behalf of a secret foreign investors.

So, what should I say to them? Thank you for starting a war here, making properties value go down, buying them at low prices, and now owning half of my country (with 5 or 6 neighboring that emerged from the process)? No, I don't consider that a civilization. That is what I'm dissatisfied with!

p.s. That was just a rhetorical exclamation mark :)

LeBrok
14-07-13, 08:25
1. No, this has nothing to do with the issues I have with US government. Things get much more complex if we isolate just Serbia an US, so I wouldn't get into that on this thread. This is the policy that US and like-minded are conducting all over the world.

So, what should I say to them? Thank you for starting a war here, making properties value go down, buying them at low prices, and now owning half of my country (with 5 or 6 neighboring that emerged from the process)? No, I don't consider that a civilization. That is what I'm dissatisfied with!

I knew it. You are angry at US for forcing Serbia into defeated position. And in your mind "destroying" Yugoslavia.


As for number of Indians in America current consensus is about 50 millions in 1492, with minimal estimate at 10 millions. That's why I used the terminology I did. I thought we were talking about US and Natives within its borders, and not the whole America. The most populated was central america with Mexico, because they were agriculturalists. Go to Mexico and you will see that majority of them look pure native and there is 100 million of them. Therefore your "close to extinct" is not even close.



2. I'm pretty much satisfied with the way I live, don't know where you got the wrong impression.
Maybe here:

Maybe it works for you, but not here. Only thing we got from that in whole Yugoslavia is bunch of criminals that are using guns, power, force, extortion and bribery, to raise themselves up according to those new standards of success. In fact, I will go that far to say that communism worked better for us, because there was a limitation on a private property for a person

Seams like you're contradicting yourself.


I'm dissatisfied when someone else is trying to inflict on me how I should live. U.S. have a very strong opinion that only they know what is right and that everyone should be living the way they do, because - It is the right way.Give me one example how US is forcing you personally to live the way they want. It looks to me that you are angry at others (Serbs?) that are following western culture.



3. In Sheldonian words, this is "the logical fallacy of extending someone's argument to ridiculous proportions and then criticizing the result." I would do the same if I told you to superglue yourself to your chair, in front of your laptop, and never come out into the sun light. That's just not a proactive conversation.

When you say 'civilization', do you really mean 'western civilization'? You have to understand that there are people in the world that have different priorities and approach to life. I don't neglect all the achievement of your civilization, but I neglect the need to embrace them all at once and forget everything I was ever taught which has worked here for thousands of years.
The beauty of Western civilization is that it brings freedom of choice to all people. You can chose to live any way you like, or you can live wherever you want. You don't like new technology, don't buy it, don't go to hospital, don't drive your car, throw away your computer. Nobody is forcing your hand to have it.
Let me remind you something. If you lived in communist country you wouldn't have computer and internet to share your views on Eupedia. Unless, it is again US forcing you to do so...


In my opinion western civilization is nowdays obsessed with money and is weighing everything through the prism of economic gain. Maybe it works for you, but not here. Only thing we got from that in whole Yugoslavia is bunch of criminals that are using guns, power, force, extortion and bribery, to raise themselves up according to those new standards of success. In fact, I will go that far to say that communism worked better for us, because there was a limitation on a private property for a person, so they could not appropriate an estate that easy. Now we have ended up with local landlords owing half of the country, and facts are coming out that they are not even the real owners, but they were bying on behalf of a secret foreign investors.
So what changed? Previously you had Red Barons owing Yugoslavia and doing whatever they wanted. And don't use word "us", I'm sure most people don't share your views. Seams like you would sacrifice your people, their freedoms and choices for a dream of Great Yugoslavia again. How imperialistic, despotic and communistic.

Ike
14-07-13, 09:54
I knew it. You are angry at US for forcing Serbia into defeated position. And in your mind "destroying" Yugoslavia.

There is no defeated position from my point of view. All sides here lost the war. Serbia even less than others, cause there was not much of a war here. Some other areas are just devastated.

I'm not blaming US for destroying Yugoslavia. I'm blaming US on supporting the fallout of Yugoslavia even though it was sure the war would break out in such a case. It may have been a wild guess back then, but now after Wikileaks and others, we know they US were perfectly aware of that fact, and lots of 'civilized' countries were involved in weapon smuggling. Saying that you want what's good for the people, that you're bringing them freedom, while in fact bringing death and destruction, while making profits is more than disgusting. Julius Caesar said "Divide and conquer". I guess it was Roman civilization that was brought to us back then...




I thought we were talking about US and Natives within its borders, and not the whole America. The most populated was central america with Mexico, because they were agriculturalists. Go to Mexico and you will see that majority of them look pure native and there is 100 million of them. Therefore your "close to extinct" is not even close.


I don't hear them saying that they are. It's like it wasn't that important so they've forgotten? They are now Salvadorians, Panamians, Columbians - all autochthonous native American names. :sarcasm:


Seams like you're contradicting yourself.

Give me one example how US is forcing you personally to live the way they want. It looks to me that you are angry at others (Serbs?) that are following western culture.

I'm not dissatisfied with my life. I feel good. I'm dissatisfied with the fact that those people (criminals) are not yet in jail. That is the fault of our judicial system, not US. And it's not the case of Serbia, but the whole region. Again, Serbia is somewhere in between, there are much worse examples of total anarchy in Balkans.

You know, one should not get angry with the kid shooting with a gun. The responsibility is on the person who gave him the gun to shoot around.




The beauty of Western civilization is that it brings freedom of choice to all people. You can chose to live any way you like, or you can live wherever you want. You don't like new technology, don't buy it, don't go to hospital, don't drive your car, throw away your computer. Nobody is forcing your hand to have it.
Let me remind you something. If you lived in communist country you wouldn't have computer and internet to share your views on Eupedia. Unless, it is again US forcing you to do so...

I never said that I don't like the new technologies. You're turning my words around again. If anything, I ment that a man should not be a slave to technological progress, and that there are way more important things than what 'civilization' brings. Again, we have a very different perspective of civilization, and even though you're trying to make me look funny and awkward by presenting it all as in isolated set from which I have given up in it's entirety, there are some large intersections that you deliberately leave out. It is the same as if I would say that alphabet was invented on the East some 5000 years ago, and that you should give it up and go drive your 4000 cc car. Things just don't work that way. We've had hospitals here long before Columbus discovered America. Try addressing the things that are different, and try to understand the difference in perception, maybe then you'll be on the right track.



So what changed? Previously you had Red Barons owing Yugoslavia and doing whatever they wanted. And don't use word "us", I'm sure most people don't share your views. Seams like you would sacrifice your people, their freedoms and choices for a dream of Great Yugoslavia again. How imperialistic, despotic and communistic.
Your opinion is just wrong. Don't know where the heck you got it?
What do you mean imperialistic? SFRJ brought down the Empire in 1945. Lots of people died for that. And broke away from communism in 1948. In fact letter S in SFRJ stands for Socialistic. There were no despots here. Only one who could have been categorized like that was Tito. But he died a long time ago, leaving his family with not a lot of money. His wife is still alive. Living in a same small flat since his death. His grandson owns a small resturant which he built by himself. What kind of Baronism or Despotism are you talking about? It seems to me that you've seen to much US movies, and have a very bad bias towards the eastern cultures. Anyway, we should not make this an East/West quarrel, because the US are weighing this cultural war on all ethnicities.

Ike
14-07-13, 16:07
.
And by this you mean they have the same rights and freedoms, and protection under the law, as all American citizens....and your problem with this is what exactly? Are you saying they should look on these new people as less than anyone else, deny them the rights that being an American citizen entitles them to..in essence "think" of them as not an American?


No. I am saying that you can become an American by gaining US citizenship, but you can't become Dutch just by gaining citizenship of Netherlands. Why? Because I have no Dutch ancestors. Saying that I'm a Dutchman would be a lie. I would just have a paper giving me the right to live in Netherlands according to their laws and call myself a citizen of Netherlands. US is a different case. United-statians already feel free to call themselves Americans although 98% of them have no ancestors in America.




Do not measure what others may be able to feel or accept against your inability to do so. Many people from different countries have gone to America, kept respect for their customs whilst having no problems in seeing themselves as American citizens also. As for the art ..there are, as you say, immigrants from many countries in America.. I should think it not too hard to find art or music to suit all tastes..it has variety.
If you feel you could relate to so little in Germany as a German citizen...then why would you contemplate it at all?


Again, you're comparing America with Europe, which cannot be done. If you or I went to America we would become Americans. But if we went to China, would be become Chinese? Would we get a squinted eyes?

As for relating to other ethnicities I'm talking from what I've heard from all the people that lived 1+ years abroad. Also, from what I've heard, people of Western and especially Northern Europe have a problem accepting foreigners. I'm not saying that they are disrespectful, but almost everyone told me that they don't feel 'welcomed' in Scandinavia.



Not sure what type of "ethnic behavior you are talking about here..could you be more precise.


Any behavior that is not autochthonous. Some like to lay a blanket in the park and have a meal, some like to stop a car when passing by the church and say a quick "Hail Mary", or "Hail Pegasus" whatever...



Sounds pretty much like an excuse to have them not come. What if they cannot get work, education or health care in their own countries, due to wars or ethnic persecution?


No, it's not an excuse. People should mix, and learn from other cultures, it's just that immigration today has become an obsession. I'm most certain that right now you have 20 million of Chinese that would be delightful to come to your country just for a better life. That is just too much.Take a look at this (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0378906/) movie if you're interested.

As for countries in war, it would be best for them if we stooped selling them guns and ammo.




Well is it or is it not?...surely you have a better debate and sources other than "likely".


I personally think it is, but since I have no substantial evidence I had to use that sentence construction.




No, I agree, one should be allowed to ask questions. Which questions do you have in mind?.
Also, nice to note if you take German citizenship [although goodness knows why, as you would have so much trouble adjusting, it seems] you would expect full rights as such. However you are not so generous as to allow others such rights, unless it gets "slip-sided" in.


Yes, but by getting German citizenship you get both rights and commitments. They are defined by German law, which one should abide to if he is living in Germany with their citizenship. It has nothing to do with smuggling the 'right of free sexual expression for sexual minorities' into the same basket with basic human rights. They simply are not.

hope
14-07-13, 19:00
No. I am saying that you can become an American by gaining US citizenship, but you can't become Dutch just by gaining citizenship of Netherlands...

It`s all just playing with words and terms here. You gain citizenship of America, you are an American citizen..you gain citizenship of Netherlands, you are a citizen of Netherlands.



Because I have no Dutch ancestors. Saying that I'm a Dutchman would be a lie. I would just have a paper giving me the right to live in Netherlands according to their laws and call myself a citizen of Netherlands..

Yes, now you are getting how it works!

Let me ask you this, if you should find you have an Irish ancestor, would that, according to your theory above, make it true for you to call yourself an Irish man? Can I say I am Norwegian, I had some Norwegian ancestors?.. although they did like to indulge in some pillaging, but then who hasn`t got a few skeletons in the family closet.


US is a different case. United-statians already feel free to call themselves Americans although 98% of them have no ancestors in America.

Yes, they do seem to enjoy peculiar assimilation practices and freedoms in America do they not!





Again, you're comparing America with Europe, which cannot be done. If you or I went to America we would become Americans. But if we went to China, would be become Chinese? Would we get a squinted eyes?.


First, I am answering YOUR points on America. Second, and more important..your last sentence is incredibly rude and not worthy of a member of Eupedia.








I'm not saying that they are disrespectful, but almost everyone told me that they don't feel 'welcomed' in Scandinavia..

You will have to check the figures out for yourself, mine are quite out-dated, but here they are. NORWAY..approx 4 985 800
immigrants. DENMARK..no figures but quite large first and further generations...SWEDEN..approx 1.33 odd million. That is a lot of people living in "unwelcoming" Scandanavian countries. How many actually told you they did not feel welcome?




IAny behavior that is not autochthonous. Some like to lay a blanket in the park and have a meal, some like to stop a car when passing by the church and say a quick "Hail Mary", or "Hail Pegasus" whatever....

And..? As far as I know this is perfectly fine in the country we are not talking about!


No, it's not an excuse. People should mix, and learn from other cultures, it's just that immigration today has become an obsession. I'm most certain that right now you have 20 million of Chinese that would be delightful to come to your country just for a better life. That is just too much.Take a look at this (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0378906/) movie if you're interested...

Now when you say 20 million, is this one of your "likely" numbers?


As for countries in war, it would be best for them if we stooped selling them guns and ammo..

Probably. Unfortunately a lot of money is made from this sort of thing. It might be hard to stop completely.









Yes, but by getting German citizenship you get both rights and commitments. They are defined by German law, which one should abide to if he is living in Germany with their citizenship. It has nothing to do with smuggling the 'right of free sexual expression for sexual minorities' into the same basket with basic human rights. They simply are not.


Not sure quite what you are saying here..sorry :)

LeBrok
14-07-13, 19:10
There is no defeated position from my point of view. All sides here lost the war. Serbia even less than others, cause there was not much of a war here. Some other areas are just devastated.

I'm not blaming US for destroying Yugoslavia. I'm blaming US on supporting the fallout of Yugoslavia even though it was sure the war would break out in such a case. It may have been a wild guess back then, but now after Wikileaks and others, we know they US were perfectly aware of that fact, and lots of 'civilized' countries were involved in weapon smuggling. Saying that you want what's good for the people, that you're bringing them freedom, while in fact bringing death and destruction, while making profits is more than disgusting. Julius Caesar said "Divide and conquer". I guess it was Roman civilization that was brought to us back then...
Divide and conquer? And yet US supports EU, and I would like to stress the union part. Actions of US don't support your conspiracy theory. As we know, actions are stronger than words.





I don't hear them saying that they are. It's like it wasn't that important so they've forgotten? They are now Salvadorians, Panamians, Columbians - all autochthonous native American names. :sarcasm:
Go to Mexico and you will hear them. They are proud Azteks.


I'm not dissatisfied with my life. I have different impression from your posts.




I never said that I don't like the new technologies. You're turning my words around again. If anything, I ment that a man should not be a slave to technological progress, and that there are way more important things than what 'civilization' brings. Again, we have a very different perspective of civilization, and even though you're trying to make me look funny and awkward by presenting it all as in isolated set from which I have given up in it's entirety, there are some large intersections that you deliberately leave out. It is the same as if I would say that alphabet was invented on the East some 5000 years ago, and that you should give it up and go drive your 4000 cc car. Things just don't work that way. We've had hospitals here long before Columbus discovered America. Try addressing the things that are different, and try to understand the difference in perception, maybe then you'll be on the right track.
The problem of your thinking is that you disassociated understanding of social structures from economic progress of humankind.
Economic progress of agriculturalists brought us alphabets and arithmetics. It wasn't vice versa, but they added strength to societies.
Economic progress of bronze and iron smelting, brought us wheels, wagons, and strong axes to clear more forests for farming, also first empires. If you were still hunter-gatherer you would think of bronze and iron age culture as very greedy. (Likewise, you as current human, for bronze age people you would look greedy and materialistic). But it gave us first European civilizations with new techniques of building, tool making, first sciences and theatres, even invented democracy.
Next big jump was capitalism/free market economy that unleashed creative and inventive side of ordinary citizens. Brought us modern medicine, computers, new sources of energy, warm clean houses, transportation around the planet, etc. All materialistic you would say? Not all, but this materialistic wealth is the base of our modern social achievements. Capitalism, new production system and wealth gave work outside feudal/slave structure to millions of men and money for schools for ordinary citizens. Once they've become free and and educated, it was a short step to the fall of Empires (after WWI) and democratic system of today. This new production system and wealth gave work outside homes for women. Once they had their own money they could become independent from men, and demanded equal rights. Patriarchal social structure is history now in Western Culture.
This is in nutshell, how forces of invention and production (materialistic in nature), bring social and political changes. Gives power and freedoms to us simple citizens. Sure I would like to be rich and powerful, but I'll take my freedoms, comforts and quality of life over life as feudal peasant or disillusioned citizen in any dictatorship, even socialistic kind.
I know what I'm talking about, I've escaped from there.

Unlike capitalism (being evolutionary system), socialism is an artificial concept invented by few philosophers. Socialism/Communism was introduced by force and being artificial (not in tune with human nature) never gave good benefits to ordinary people. That's why it never worked, people were unhappy, and had to be kept with force by dictators all the time. Pretty much like newer version of feudalism. Any attempt of peaceful change to socialism, like in Sweden, wasn't successful either.
Here is a quick answer what works and why.

You can't uncouple our wealth from our social life. That's why I spend so much time arguing our material achievements. They are the precursor of our social life and our freedoms.
Take away all our goods and products and in one generation we would end up in caves again chopping flint stone. Which in fact is a material object, our first invention.





Your opinion is just wrong. Don't know where the heck you got it?
What do you mean imperialistic? SFRJ brought down the Empire in 1945. Lots of people died for that. And broke away from communism in 1948. In fact letter S in SFRJ stands for Socialistic. There were no despots here. Only one who could have been categorized like that was Tito. But he died a long time ago, leaving his family with not a lot of money. His wife is still alive. Living in a same small flat since his death. His grandson owns a small resturant which he built by himself. What kind of Baronism or Despotism are you talking about? It seems to me that you've seen to much US movies, and have a very bad bias towards the eastern cultures. Anyway, we should not make this an East/West quarrel, because the US are weighing this cultural war on all ethnicities.
I was more referring to your character and dreams than to Yugoslavia.
To add to it, I'm finding you very conservative and traditional, afraid of any new changes or foreign ideas, or even people of different culture.


PS. Still waiting for one example how America forces you to do things.

Ike
14-07-13, 20:16
1. It`s all just playing with words and terms here. You gain citizenship of America, you are an American citizen..you gain citizenship of Netherlands, you are a citizen of Netherlands. Yes, now you are getting how it works!

Let me ask you this, if you should find you have an Irish ancestor, would that, according to your theory above, make it true for you to call yourself an Irish man? Can I say I am Norwegian, I had some Norwegian ancestors?.. although they did like to indulge in some pillaging, but then who hasn't got a few skeletons in the family closet.

First, I am answering YOUR points on America. Second, and more important..your last sentence is incredibly rude and not worthy of a member of Eupedia.

2. You will have to check the figures out for yourself, mine are quite out-dated, but here they are. NORWAY..approx 4 985 800
immigrants. DENMARK..no figures but quite large first and further generations...SWEDEN..approx 1.33 odd million. That is a lot of people living in "unwelcoming" Scandanavian countries. How many actually told you they did not feel welcome?

3. And..? As far as I know this is perfectly fine in the country we are not talking about!

4. Now when you say 20 million, is this one of your "likely" numbers?

5. Probably. Unfortunately a lot of money is made from this sort of thing. It might be hard to stop completely.

6.Not sure quite what you are saying here..sorry :)

1. I used China as an example that getting someones citizenship doesn't automatically make you same as them. You didn't want to understand this on examples from US and Europe, so I had to pull out a more contrasty example. I did use the term 'squinted eyes', don't know if it's correct but that's the only one I know from the internet and movies. English is not my mother tongue, if there is a proper term you should have pointed that out. If anyone feels insulted, it was really not my intention and I'm sorry . :ashamed2:

Anyway, don't know about Ireland, but we still track records of what tribe someone is belonging to, and those date back for centuries into the past.

I don't think one can say much about himself. Others would have to vouch for you. If Norwegians said that you are Norwegian I would believe them. They are the most competent ones on that subject. Yes, we can argue about this one...

Those are not my points on America, that is how Americans feel about themselves, and want all others to feel like that, but we don't. Is it really that you don't understand what I'm talking about, or you're just making a fun with me because you find it interesting to read my bad English trying to explain the same this subject over and over again? :angry:p.s. :cool-v:


2. The numbers are not representative in any way. They do not reflect the situation on the field and tension. There were millions of pilgrims in America in the 18th century, but they were not quite welcome there. Just now we've had a riots (http://www.pandorasfridge.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/safe_image.jpg) in Sweden, and it seems indicative of the situation.


3. I don't hear it is fine in the US. Have you ever seen a person giving his prayers (http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQpc4ZExZRtnPVqfB1-S9CYznOpDBTyjG29J96iGsQQ5OP74y2OyQ) in the streets of New York or wearing burqa (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/Burqa_Afghanistan_01.jpg/400px-Burqa_Afghanistan_01.jpg)? If I'm wrong, please correct me.

4. Yes. Do you think I'm wrong? Are the correct numbers really important here? Or you think I made a mistake of about 1000x and I'm going into a dead-end because of the wrong premise?

5. Yes, a lot of money that could be used for education, health care, and making living conditions better for people in those areas.

6. I said everything that I could without breaking the law. Anything more and I would probably get an Admin warning, so you'll have to settle with that. :innocent:

Ike
14-07-13, 21:10
1. Divide and conquer? And yet US supports EU, and I would like to stress the union part. Actions of US don't support your conspiracy theory. As we know, actions are stronger than words.

2. Go to Mexico and you will hear them. They are proud Azteks.

3. I have different impression from your posts.

4. The problem of your thinking is that you disassociated understanding of social structures from economic progress of humankind.
Economic progress of agriculturalists brought us alphabets and arithmetics. It wasn't vice versa, but they added strength to societies.
Economic progress of bronze and iron smelting, brought us wheels, wagons, and strong axes to clear more forests for farming, also first empires. If you were still hunter-gatherer you would think of bronze and iron age culture as very greedy. (Likewise for bronze age people you would look greedy and materialistic). But it gave us first European civilizations with new technics of building, tool making, first sciences and theatres, even invented democracy.

Next big jump was capitalism/free market economy that unleashed creative and inventive side of ordinary citizens. Brought us modern medicine, computers, new sources of energy, warm clean houses, transportation around the planet, etc. All materialistic you would say? Not all, but this materialistic wealth is the base of our modern social achievements. Capitalism, new production system and wealth gave work outside feudal/slave structure to millions of men and money for schools for ordinary citizens. Once they've become free and and educated, it was a short step to the fall of Empires (after WWI) and democratic system of today. This new production system and wealth gave work outside homes for women. Once they had their own money they could become independent from men, and demanded equal rights. Patriarchal social structure is history now in Western Culture.
This is in nutshell, how forces of invention and production (materialistic in nature), bring social and political changes. Gives power and freedoms to us simple citizens. Sure I would like to be rich and powerful, but I'll take my freedoms, comforts and quality of life over life as feudal peasant or disillusioned citizen in any dictatorship, even socialistic kind.
I know what I'm talking about, I've escaped from there.

5. Unlike capitalism (being evolutionary system), socialism is an artificial concept invented by few philosophers. Socialism/Communism was introduced by force and being artificial (not in tune with human nature) never gave good benefits to ordinary people. That's why it never worked, people were unhappy, and had to be kept with force by dictators all the time. Pretty much like newer version of feudalism. Any attempt of peaceful change to socialism, like in Sweden, wasn't successful either.

6. Here is a quick answer what works and why.

You can't uncouple our wealth from our social life. That's why I spend so much time arguing our material achievements. They are the precursor of our social life and our freedoms.
Take away all our goods and products and in one generation we would end up in caves again chopping flint stone. Which in fact is a material object, our first invention.

7. I was more referring to your character and dreams than to Yugoslavia.
To add to it, I'm finding you very conservative and traditional, afraid of any new changes or foreign ideas, or even people of different culture.


PS. Still waiting for one example how America forces you to do things.

1. Off course US supports everyone. It's like Mike Tyson asking for integration of all boxing categories (from 45 to 145 kg). So does the US want to make a deeper penetration into our societies to make a cultural assimilation easier. Nothing better than a union. A wife-beater likes nothing better than when his wife is with him.

2. This stuff about native Americans is getting hmmm. I say this, then you say that. I say Wikipedia says this, you say that they say that. I say that what you said about them saying this is wrong.... We have to get back to the start and consider facts. In fact, I've forgotten what the original issue was about. I said that US would be filled with hundreds of millions Indians right now, if there was not for us to bring them civilization?

3. Maybe you do, but these are just posts about US. It's not like I think about them the whole day. You're making a premature conclusions about me, based solely on this one subject.

4. I appreciate your writings, but .... I don't have anything against progress, I just don't like people who are obsessed with money and call that civilization. It's just a plain, old 'wolf in sheep's clothing'. They want to make money and they need workers, oil and other natural resources. If some kind of progress is a consequence of that process, it's of no concern to them. It's just a bypass product.

5. Both systems are artificial and you don't need to try to be persuasive cause I know everything about all of them. Since Rousseau's concept of modern state, people were trying to reach a better compromise among themselves and configure a better form of social contract. Some worked better, some worse. Imperialistic countries which relied on slaves and colonies went the way which is perfectly logical for them. Some other societies hadn't felt comfortable with that kind of agreement and went the other way.

6. Exactly that is problem with US. They are based solely on the material wealth, and once it is gone they'd descend into anarchy. That's exactly what I'm talking about! They just don't understand that not all the people in the world are like that, but they want to make us be like that by pretending that they are giving us freedom, while instead making us a money dependent.

I'm not saying (nor do I remember using the term) that US is literally forcing me to do something. US is making constant political, cultural and social propaganda to embrace small societies and nations into their system of belief. And of course as #2 said, not always peaceful methods, they use wars.

7. Maybe you fell like that, but it is not the truth. You're really welcome to come here to see where we live, what we do, how we behave, conduct to foreigners, etc. Maybe you'll be surprised.

LeBrok
15-07-13, 05:28
1. Off course US supports everyone. It's like Mike Tyson asking for integration of all boxing categories (from 45 to 145 kg). So does the US want to make a deeper penetration into our societies to make a cultural assimilation easier. Nothing better than a union. A wife-beater likes nothing better than when his wife is with him.
Well in this case you should have said "Unite and conquer".


2. This stuff about native Americans is getting hmmm. I say this, then you say that. I say Wikipedia says this, you say that they say that. I say that what you said about them saying this is wrong.... We have to get back to the start and consider facts. In fact, I've forgotten what the original issue was about. I said that US would be filled with hundreds of millions Indians right now, if there was not for us to bring them civilization? No it wouldn't be filled with hundreds of millions, because US and Canadian Natives were either hunter-gatherers or small scale farmers. Their food production was limited, not enough for the numbers you said. Population of the past was always limited and adequate to food production.
And no, those days there was no Red Cross, US or any international help, sending bags with food to starving populations.


3. Maybe you do, but these are just posts about US. It's not like I think about them the whole day. You're making a premature conclusions about me, based solely on this one subject. Without quoting me I'm not sure what you are referring to.


4. I appreciate your writings, but .... I don't have anything against progress, I just don't like people who are obsessed with money and call that civilization. It's just a plain, old 'wolf in sheep's clothing'. They want to make money and they need workers, oil and other natural resources. If some kind of progress is a consequence of that process, it's of no concern to them. It's just a bypass product.
If my freedoms, equality and good life is a byproduct of invention and production combine with free market economy, I'll take it. Who cares how we call it and where it cames from. If it is for improvement and betterment of society, and I love it. I like the natural way of things. They work for us and I embrace it, so do other people, that's why capitalism stays with us. This is evolutionary way, and like in nature successful species live on.



5. Both systems are artificial and you don't need to try to be persuasive cause I know everything about all of them.
Capitalism/big manufacturing/free market started about 500 years ago with invention of better and faster machines, capital investments in manufacturing, stock markets, steam engines, etc. After 500 years it is somewhat different, but live and kicking in most prosperous countries on this planet, and even embraced by "communist" China. We should mention that during last 25 years 400 million Chinese escaped poverty and became middle class, not mentioning hundreds of millions in other Asian nations. That's the vitality and power of capitalistic economy.
It started small in England 500 years ago, it evolved, got adopted (mutation/adaptation) to all races, cultures and nations (environment), and is a prime engine of economic growth of today's world (successful species).
Please, could you remind us the definition of evolution (as per natural selection)?
Think about people, societies or nations as environments. Economic or political systems operate in these environments, therefore they are susceptible to natural selection laws. If something exists for long time (money, production, capitalism, religion) it means it works, if something vanishes quickly like socialism, means it didn't work. Simple like that.
It doesn't mean capitalism or religion is the best ever. It means that it is the best what we have right now. In future new things will be invented and only time will tell if they replace capitalism in production, or religion in spirituality. Only time will test them in people environment and will give us the right answer, was it good or was it bad.
I'm not the judge, I'm just an observer of natural forces in action.




6. Exactly that is problem with US. They are based solely on the material wealth, and once it is gone they'd descend into anarchy. From poverty every country will go into anarchy, revolution or other mess. That's why wealth of citizens is very important.
And please, don't make statements like this. Americans are more religious than most European countries. Americans are more proud than most Europeans. America, and many rich Americans, are biggest philanthropists on Earth. Americans can sacrifice and die for freedoms and many other causes, never mind if right or wrong. For 150 years they didn't attack their neighbours (unlike Serbs). They have the longest lived democratic system of modern times.
Well, it is not all about money, wouldn't you say?


That's exactly what I'm talking about! They just don't understand that not all the people in the world are like that, but they want to make us be like that by pretending that they are giving us freedom, while instead making us a money dependent.[/QUOTE]
Wow, that's what they forcing you to? Use your strong will, spit on money and throw them away. Don't be the slave of money!
But seriously.
If you referring to some loans that foreign banks gave to Serbia and now Serbia has to pay with interest, did you find out what banks is Serbia mostly indebted to? I don't know the details, but I would be surprised if these banks are mostly American. I also doubt that US is biggest investor in Serbian real estate.
Anyway most banks are international these days, or at least have international shareholders. And I'm sure you will find Serbs among shareholders of all banks on this planet.


I'm not saying (nor do I remember using the term) that US is literally forcing me to do something. US is making constant political, cultural and social propaganda to embrace small societies and nations into their system of belief. And of course as #2 said, not always peaceful methods, they use wars.
You said this

U.S. have a very strong opinion that only they know what is right and that everyone should be living the way they do, because - It is the right way. Therefore, I asked, what exactly they're forcing you to do? From previous paragraph I finally learned that they forcing you to use (their) money.


cultural and social propaganda to embrace small societies and nations into their system of belief
I thought we agreed that they want to unite Europe into one big EU to have only one enemy? Now the big bad US kicks small guys again, geez.


7. Maybe you fell like that, but it is not the truth. You're really welcome to come here to see where we live, what we do, how we behave, conduct to foreigners, etc. Maybe you'll be surprised.
Thanks for invite, I will. In mean time try traveling more and talking to natives of all countries. You will find they are mostly good people wanting exactly the same. Home, family, car, computer, internet, smartphone, vacation, peace, good health, find god or purpose of life, etc. Even Americans and Canadians.

PS. Please, try quoting us with your answer underneath, it is more transparent and understandable. I know it might be something new for you, but it is worth it. :)

Yetos
16-07-13, 23:44
a strange history, that fits to thread.

'cryptocides primordiales'

discovered by Raymond Rife at 1930,
follows koch theory demans when HIV does not,
can resist from absolute zero to 400 C
by using Koch's theory he manage to cure 400 cases of cancer,
yet he was sent to judges by AMA suporters,
they steal his microscope and burn down his lab,
they destroy the machines he created that can kill cryptocides primordiales
and finally they also burn Barnett Lab in NJersey
and poison a fan of his work Dr Milibank Johnson
co-insidence
Dr Nemes that doubled the worked also burned alive when his lab got fire
but his partner took 200 000 $ as grant and just disapear


no need to write about Jimmy Hoffa case.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xTYmZ33SKS8/TqQP63YSlgI/AAAAAAAACOc/6gk1SVedFj4/s1600/Jimmy+Hoffa.JPG


or how UNICEF traped Osama Bin Landen.

the last case is now in Moscow airport, in the neutral zone asking for an asylon, a refugee.

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4883872812108885&pid=15.1&H=110&W=160


just to sharp some people memmory to judge correct
it is for you to decide where is truth and freedom and where the illusion

Ike
17-07-13, 01:41
@LeBrok

Message entering screen's functionality and visibility is not good enough, for me to try to quote your quotation of my quotation. I can't see my message in it's entirety, and I'm not sure what am I typing. Even that much (which I've tried in first two answers) is real pain in the eggs.

Anyway, in the last thread couple of threads I've explained you what I dislike about US.
It's not about the lawns, it's not about Serbia (you have opened some subjects here which are far beyond this topic but I don't want to reply now, just to tell you that I disagree on many of your inputs). It's about making the whole world one big US. They are making every possible kind of effort to make it happen (and I gave my theories why they want it so). They are offensive and annoying, and if they can't make it happen they are aggressive (they've been in war with like half of the world).

I'm already repeating myself, and don't want to dissolve my arguments more.

LeBrok
17-07-13, 07:03
@LeBrok

[QUOTE]Anyway, in the last thread couple of threads I've explained you what I dislike about US.
It's not about the lawns, it's not about Serbia (you have opened some subjects here which are far beyond this topic but I don't want to reply now, just to tell you that I disagree on many of your inputs). I addressed your inputs, but you didn't address mine. For example:
You said that US is only about money. In response I listed many great things about US that is not about money. You didn't dispute my points at all. Does it means you agreed with them?
Furthermore, I posted my proof of evolutionary character of capitalism/free market economy. Did you agree?


It's about making the whole world one big US. They are making every possible kind of effort to make it happen (and I gave my theories why they want it so). They are offensive and annoying, and if they can't make it happen they are aggressive (they've been in war with like half of the world).
Exactly like Serbia to other Yugoslavia ethnic groups? It wouldn't be hypocritical if you criticized Serbia first for being aggressive and annoying, or started a thread about Serbia aggression, before you started mouthing other countries.



It's about making the whole world one big US If it is the truth, I'd like it much better than whole world like China, Russia, Serbia or Greece.

nordicquarreler
18-07-13, 00:55
Here's a fun question for everyone-- to whom do you place your highest allegiance... the United Nations or the country where you claim citizenship? I'm interested in hearing as many answers as possible. I have very little use for the U.N. personally. The more I learn of almost any governing body, the less use I seem to have for them.

nordicquarreler
18-07-13, 01:24
Please don't bump this question to another thread... it relates directly to the illusion of freedom in the U.S. Plus all of the budding globalists should have a chance to announce their loyalties!

LeBrok
18-07-13, 02:56
Here's a fun question for everyone-- to whom do you place your highest allegiance... the United Nations or the country where you claim citizenship? I'm interested in hearing as many answers as possible. I have very little use for the U.N. personally. The more I learn of almost any governing body, the less use I seem to have for them.
The question is not clear.

nordicquarreler
18-07-13, 03:42
Sorry, I'm seeing if anyone on Eupedia puts the dictates of the U.N. over their own nation. In your case, would you consider Canada or the United Nations decisions/goals/ideals more binding?

LeBrok
18-07-13, 04:12
Canada. I've never treated UN in serious way.

ElHorsto
18-07-13, 23:20
Sorry, I'm seeing if anyone on Eupedia puts the dictates of the U.N. over their own nation. In your case, would you consider Canada or the United Nations decisions/goals/ideals more binding?

The power of the UN has continuously decreased, so I guess only very few will consider the UN as binding.

LeBrok
19-07-13, 06:40
The power of economy (that I'm an apostle of) is much stronger than artificial and bureaucratic institution of UN. Having said that, UN still have some useful functions in today's global village, but only if everybody can agree (and that's the problem). Overall it is huge wasteful and corrupt institution. Even without UN world would go on pretty much the same way.
Without capitalism and free market economy we still would have been stuck in 17th century.

alibaz
19-07-13, 09:39
Just an observation - on every occasion I have been in the US, I have been astounded to see how censored the US news is. American citizens really are kept in the dark about what is happening in the rest of the world and how the US is being viewed by the rest of the world.

LeBrok
19-07-13, 10:03
Just an observation - on every occasion I have been in the US, I have been astounded to see how censored the US news is. American citizens really are kept in the dark about what is happening in the rest of the world and how the US is being viewed by the rest of the world.
American news is very consumer based. It shows mostly what average American is interested in, and it is about America. Well, America is almost big as continent.
Can you tell me what happened yesterday in Zimbabwe?
There is probably not enough hours in day to listen to news from every country.

What a most Brits interested in these days? New royal baby?

Ike
19-07-13, 19:12
I addressed your inputs, but you didn't address mine. For example:
You said that US is only about money. In response I listed many great things about US that is not about money. You didn't dispute my points at all. Does it means you agreed with them?
Furthermore, I posted my proof of evolutionary character of capitalism/free market economy. Did you agree?


You're trying to make it all look black and white, but it isn't. Capitalism is as same is communism, the only difference is where the borders are put. Communist decided to categorize oil, bread and couple of other products as of 'vital importance' so that they could control their prices, because they were afraid that some opportunists and monopolists would use advantage of it in a postwar apocalyptic environment. A big deal.

Everything is defined by the law, and you can't do much even in a capitalist country. Real 'evolutionism' would be a Conan Barbarian society. The only difference between capitalism and socialism is where they put the final boundaries, and it depends on how much are they afraid on loosing their ground. US is full-mouthed with human rights all around the world, but when their ass is at stake, then Guantanamo is totally OK. Same as Gulag if you ask me. So did Soviets did with their 'enemies', so do Americans, and so do everyone, and always will. In fact I'm sure US did that before Guantanamo came out in public. So, there is no need to lie ourselves about it.

It's really sad, but lately I have a feeling that all the progress that was done by our 'civilized' world was done for war purposes, and that only after surpassed, those technologies were given to the commoners.



Exactly like Serbia to other Yugoslavia ethnic groups? It wouldn't be hypocritical if you criticized Serbia first for being aggressive and annoying, or started a thread about Serbia aggression, before you started mouthing other countries.


If you had looked at the demographic composition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Serbia#Composition_of_Serbia) of Serbia, you would have noticed that there was about 20% of minorities here since 1948, and that number never significantly drop down. Only time there was a major refugee crisis was during the NATO bombing.

If you cared to take a look on Kosovo demographics by ethnic group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kosovo#Ethnic_groups), you would have noticed the rise of Albanian minority from 500.000 up to 1.5 million in a period from 1948-1991. Those numbers say everything about how they were treated in Serbia.

And I really don't know what are you talking about Serbian aggression. I don't remember Serbian troops in other countries.

You're constantly diverting this conversation and trying to address me, my feelings, my country, my mental state or whatever. I don't think it's a good thing to make a rhetoric attack on a person or bygone deeds of some of his friends/compatriots just because you don't agree/like his opinion on some subject.

BTW, you're news agencies are indeed so biased and censored that you would need to break away from it, and read some literature that could give you a real info about the situation in the region.




If it is the truth, I'd like it much better than whole world like China, Russia, Serbia or Greece.
Well, I wouldn't like it any other way than this. I'd like to have China, and Russia and Greece, and Norway, and Brazil, and everyone else the way that they want to be.

Yetos
19-07-13, 21:18
some people here try to tell us that 'free world' still exist,

YES IF I EAT MC-DONALDS AND DRINK COLA I AM FREE, AND HAVE iPhone5 I AM FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE YEAHHHHHHHHHH.

only for those who are interested,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-m5HULV2Fw

ElHorsto
20-07-13, 14:44
No wonder you don't like iPhone, its because your music only shows message "music-content is not available in Germany". You don't like McDonalds but you never tried. You should really try McDonalds, it works great with iPhone.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_mol6B9z00

Yetos
20-07-13, 16:59
I guess he never tried Mcdonanlds and iphone5
so probably he was not 'free' in the land of the Free.


http://media.philly.com/images/20130611_inq_snowden11z-a.JPG