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DejaVu
07-07-13, 21:38
The oldest Frankish kings the Merovingians were not Germans but Sarmatians. The Carolingians were of the same clan and perhaps the whole old nobility of France. This is written by the German historian Richard Schmoekel in his book: Deutschlands unbekannte Jahrhunderte, Geheimnisse aus dem Frühmittelalter. The book is hot off the press and I hope that this will be translated in French and English.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/q77/484697_160415887477055_1435290761_n.jpg

Maciamo
08-07-13, 14:50
I pointed out (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27015-Were-the-Goths-related-to-the-Scythians-or-Cimmerians) almost two years ago the resemblance between the Frankish/Lombard/Gothic and Scythian eagles. The Sarmatians were a branch of the Scythians. It is possible that they shared several cultural elements with Germanic tribes either due to their common Indo-European heritage or through their prolonged contact in Eastern Europe.

However I seriously doubt that the Merovingian kings were of (paternal) Sarmatian descent. That would mean that their Y-DNA was almost certainly an East Slavic or Central Asian branch of R1a1a. The Merovingians settled for many generations in the Roman city of Tornacum (modern Tournai in Belgium), where they had their capital until Clovis conquered Gaul and moved his capital to Paris. Since the Merovingians were polygamists and kings typically had dozens of children, we would expect to find a relatively high percentage of their Y-DNA around Tournai, Kortrijk and Lille. What is certain from the present data is that R1a is the lowest in Belgium in that region (about 2.5%) and equally low in adjacent French Flanders. What's more almost all this R1a is either the Western European L664 or the Scandinavian Z284. To my knowledge no Eastern European R1a has ever been found in the region. That fact alone is a potent argument against the thesis of this book. What exactly are the author's arguments ?

ebAmerican
08-07-13, 18:13
I believe the Ossetian genetic marker is hg G. They are the descendants of the Sarmations. I don't think the Sarmations were an Iranic tribe, but influenced and Iranitized (word?) by the Scythians. There are G2a Royals in France. If it could be connected to G2a, then there is a possibility.

ebAmerican
08-07-13, 19:10
I correct myself the Alan's were an Iranic tribe like the Sythians (culturally and linguistically), but I wonder how diverse genetically these people were?

Arnulf of Metz can not be directly connected to the Merovingians. We don't know what the DNA makeup of Merovech was, or his tribe. We know he helped Aetius defeat the Huns. The Huns used Alan mercenaries in their wars against Rome, and after their defeat were settle all over France. There are other tales of Alan tribes moving west into Germany and France. The Alan's (Sarmations) should represent a decent population in France (according to history). What was there genetic marker? Could the Alan's tribal system easily accepted new people into their ruling elite, and acquired many Germanic converts on their way to France? The question may be about the Gothic Alan's founding the Frankish Empire and loosely associated with their earlier Sarmation ties. If Alan elites took on local Germanic elites, then a west Germanic language may have been adopted by Alan chieftains. There many circumstantial dots that could be connected.

Maciamo
08-07-13, 19:31
I believe the Ossetian genetic marker is hg G. They are the descendants of the Sarmations. I don't think the Sarmations were an Iranic tribe, but influenced and Iranitized (word?) by the Scythians. There are G2a Royals in France. If it could be connected to G2a, then there is a possibility.

The Sarmatians are not (closely) related to the Ossetians. The Ossetians always claimed to be descended from the Alans.

Anyway Ossetians are G2a1, and the vast majority of Northwest Europeans are G2a3. The French Royal family belongs to G2a3b1a, a typically Indo-European subclade that is not common in Ossetia.

ebAmerican
08-07-13, 22:17
"The newsletter indicates (in descending order) in Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy) 20% of 156 G samples......Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain) 15% of 56 G samples.....Netherlands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands) 15% of 20 G samples......Switzerland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland) 8% of 51 G samples.....Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran) 6% of 34 G samples....Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland) 4% of 75 G samples......France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France) 4% of 46 G samples......Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland) 3% of 29 G samples.......India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India) 3% of 18 G samples." Wiki

"vast majority of Northwest Europeans are G2a3" Maciamo - 15% does not sound like vast majority in the Netherlands. It's pretty clear that G2a3 is rare every where, and G2a1 is most common in Europe. Turkey has the highest percentage of G2a3 people.

"In addition, a possible connection to the Alans was of interest because certain areas of Europe have a distribution of haplogroup G incorresponding to those to which large numbers of Alans and other Sarmatians migrated." Wiki

G2a has the best connection to a possible Marrivigean Sarmation connection, IMO. Georgia has similar population of G2a3 as other European countries, and it's in the right place for Sarmatian and Alan influence.

LeBrok
09-07-13, 04:09
Maybe it is time for nice maps of G2a1 and G2a3? They might tell us something.

Maciamo
09-07-13, 10:00
"The newsletter indicates (in descending order) in Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy) 20% of 156 G samples......Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain) 15% of 56 G samples.....Netherlands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands) 15% of 20 G samples......Switzerland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland) 8% of 51 G samples.....Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran) 6% of 34 G samples....Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland) 4% of 75 G samples......France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France) 4% of 46 G samples......Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland) 3% of 29 G samples.......India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India) 3% of 18 G samples." Wiki

"vast majority of Northwest Europeans are G2a3" Maciamo - 15% does not sound like vast majority in the Netherlands. It's pretty clear that G2a3 is rare every where, and G2a1 is most common in Europe. Turkey has the highest percentage of G2a3 people.

"In addition, a possible connection to the Alans was of interest because certain areas of Europe have a distribution of haplogroup G incorresponding to those to which large numbers of Alans and other Sarmatians migrated." Wiki

G2a has the best connection to a possible Marrivigean Sarmation connection, IMO. Georgia has similar population of G2a3 as other European countries, and it's in the right place for Sarmatian and Alan influence.

What are your sources ? What newsletter ? Who tested those members of haplogroup G ?

sparkey
09-07-13, 16:23
What are your sources ? What newsletter ? Who tested those members of haplogroup G ?

His source seems to be here (https://sites.google.com/site/haplogroupgproject/geographical-distribution), but it's only talking about M406+, not L30+ as a whole like you are.

DejaVu
09-07-13, 21:54
More information here
http://www.marres.nl/sarmatic_traces.htm

Were the leaders of the Franks Sarmatians?



The Frankish Cugerni, later called Sicambri, lived in the 1st quarter of the 5th century
Colonia Ulpia Traiana, now Xanten, on the Rhine upstream of Nijmegen, east of Venlo.
This Germanic people had a treaty with the Romans. They served as a buffer for
the even wilder eastern living barbarians.
In this region were also stationed Sarmatians. They came from the Danube Plain.
They and the Franks as well were by treaties associated with the Romans as foederati.
In the middle of the 5th century, they were retired to the south and had a great camp to
Fanum Martis, now Famars.
Childerik, ± 440-480, the first Frankish king, was in the same time by the Romans assigned
to a large area in Tournai. His tomb was discovered in 1652 in the church of Saint Brice and
therein were except Germanic also clear Sarmatian marks.


Childeric was a son or at least a descendant of the semi-legendary king Merovech.
From Merovech recounts a legend that he is the son of a princess and a sea monster.
This shows similarities with the Sarmatian Nart saga. The ancestor of the main gender
the Urismagsprung from the commitment of progenitor Achsartag with a sea nymph,
daughter of the sea godDonbettir.
Clodovech, called by the French Clovis, son of Childeric was leader of probably 500 Franks.
Him was given the command of Roman units of allies Sarmatians and Alemanni and he married
Clotilde Burgundian princess who had the catholic religion.
Clodovech and his entire court took the over the Christian faith, in that way he got the mighty
bishops on his hand. He lost however as a result the half his Frankish followers.
The conquest of the important city Soissons showed his growing power.
The military settlers of other origin assimilated unnoticed with the Franks.
An example of the assimilation of the Alans, mainly that in Armorica the later Brittany
is demonstrated by the disappearance of the tribal name Alan together with
the appearance of the first name Alain. That name is even very popular until now
also in the English territories. Even the name Goar remained. This suggests that the Alans
were a rather small group.
After the Christianization of the Alans, which took place about the same time as that of the Franks,
we see in the sixth century a bishop and a Saint Alanus and also a St. Goar.
A variant name is Eochar. This sometimes occurs alternately in the same person.
In the Ossetian, the language of the eastern Alans, the name Goar Changed to Iæukhar.
Another Goar was in 627 in Aquitaine Count of Albi and succeeded in 630 St. Arnulphus,
the oldest known ancestor of the Carolingians, as bishop of Metz.
This indicates at least a close relationship between the Alanian and French nobility.
The German historian Schmoeckel see much evidence that the Merovingians as well as
the Carolingiansare descendants of the Sarmatians.




The German historian Schmoeckel see much evidence that the Merovingians as well as the Carolingians are descendants of the Sarmatians.

Reinhard Schmoeckel, Die Sarmaten - Vergessene Väter des mittelalterlichen Europa 1, Sachshsen, Thüringer,
Schwaben - Einst vona Sarmaten beherrscht?, Das Frümittelalter in Deutschland neu gesehen. Bonn 2011.
- Reinhard Schmoeckel, Die Sarmaten - Vergessene Väter des mittelalterlichen Europa 2 Die Geheimnisse der
Merowinger, Die sarmatische Herkunft der Dynatie und eine folgenreiche Geschichtsfälsunh. Bonn 2011.
- Reinhard Schmoeckel, König Chlodwig war kein Franke: Frankreichs und Deutschlands sarmatische Wurzeln,
Bonn 2009.
- Forschungen zur Thidreksaga, Untersuchingen zur Völkerwanderungszeit im nördlichen Mitteleuropa, Band 3,
Die Wilkinensaga, Schlüssel zur unbekannten Frühgeschichte der Niederlande und Belgiëns? F. Die 'Franken'
zwischen Troja und Tournai 3. Die geheimnisvolle Verwandlung der Sarmaten in 'Franken' und ihrer Fürsten in
'Heilige Könige', Bonn 2006.

ebAmerican
10-07-13, 18:32
Maciamo you are right G2a3b P303 is most common in Europe

The numbers I posted are for M406 (which is not common and represent the numbers in post #6).

The whole G haplogroup is a bit confusing, lol. Most of the data I can find have only tested for P15 (G2a), but it seems if subclads were tested more P303 would dominate.

I read that most of the European G2a3 in the FTDNA database have most recent ancestor connected to Armenia.

It looks like it is connected to an Anatolian, Armenian or Levant exodus, but when is hard to tell. It could be Neolithic all the way to Medieval period. The ancient DNA is all G2a.

The Huns overran Armenia, and could have driven them north to ally with the Alans and Vandals.