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Sandlapper
08-07-13, 15:32
Hello everyone. I just recently joined the site, and I posted a short note in the introduction forum. This site is fantastic, and I hope to join in on the discussions from here on out. Looking forward to it!

I recently participated in the Genographic Project's Geno2.0 DNA test.
My results were thus: mtDNA haplogroup H16b and Y-DNA haplogroup L-21

Could some of you shed some light on the mtDNA H16b result? I cannot find any information as to the geographic origin or the frequency of occurrence anywhere. I would love to know in which region that haplogroup is most common.

Also, I am curious about my Y-DNA L-21 result. While I have read much concerning its possible "Celtic" origins, I know that language/culture is not the same thing as genetics, and I would like to learn more.

As I stated in my introduction note, most of my ancestors were in the British Isles before immigrating to the American colonies, and, for what it's worth, my surname is probably of Norman place-name origin.

Thanks, All - Sandlapper

Fire Haired
09-07-13, 01:27
Hello everyone. I just recently joined the site, and I posted a short note in the introduction forum. This site is fantastic, and I hope to join in on the discussions from here on out. Looking forward to it!

I recently participated in the Genographic Project's Geno2.0 DNA test.
My results were thus: mtDNA haplogroup H16b and Y-DNA haplogroup L-21

Could some of you shed some light on the mtDNA H16b result? I cannot find any information as to the geographic origin or the frequency of occurrence anywhere. I would love to know in which region that haplogroup is most common.

My dad also took a national Genographic test i was too young to take one. we have been wondering if our family started in Scotland or England we are not sure yet it is probably england. i though teh national genographic test would finalley give answers it would tell us if we where r1b l21( Insular Celtic signature) or Germanic R1b s21(which is 30-40% in central and southern England). All they told us is wwe had R1b P310/L11 which is just teh western European type it could be German or italo celtic the P310 could mean we come from anywhere in the U.K. did u pay extra money or something for them to tell u your specfic subclade.

i am sorry i looked for any info i could about H16 i could find none so here is a ancient remains that had H16. most of the ancient samples can not tell subclade like H16 all they will say is H so there where probably many H samples that had H16. just because i only found one does not mean H16 was very rare.
Rossen culture central Germany 6,625-6,250ybp: H16

mtDNA H is estimated as 20,000-30,000 years old and it originated in the mid east but it is probably actulley over 40,000 years old. because two 25,000 year old mtdna samples from european russia had H17, one 28,000 year old sample from far southern italy had H. Here is a link which shows the total amount of all Human Paloithic and Mesolithic mtDNA H was 35% of European mtDNA dating from 37,985-10,00ybp http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28839-All-Human-Paleolithic-and-Mesolithic-DNA-ever-discovered

So H probably arrived in Europe 33,000-36,000ybp and originated in the mid east over 40,000ybp. Most mtDNA H in Europe is H1 and H3 which come from last ice age reseltment from Iberia unlike what some people say h in Europe is mainly not from the Neolithic some is i dont know if H16 would have come to Europe from the middle east in the Neolithic age or if it has been in Europe for over 20,000 years. It seems that H16 is very rare

At average over 50% of Europeans direct maternal line arrived in europe from 55,000-35,000ybp. Even though alot of Europeans y DNA like R1b and r1a did not become as popular as today till the bronze age 6,000-3,000ybp does not mean europeans ancestry goes back that far. in aus. dna which tells full ancestry their are differnt types of aust. dna tests national Genographic calls their one the who am i test. most tests call the unque european group north european because it is most popular in northern europe. north european is from the paloithic age at least its ancestral form arrived in Europe over 50,000 years ago. sure Europeans direct paternal lines are recent but Europeans full ancestry is not. we have aust, dna of a mesloithic 7,000 year old hunter gather in north spain he had more north european than almost any modern Europeans. This is more prove that europeans ancestors where the Mesolithic and Paleolithic hunter gathers not invading farmers from the middle east. Most of ur ancestors probably came to europe over 50,000 years ago.


also i have read some of the stuff spencer wells(leader of national genographic) says. do not trust him he simplifies things and romantize stuff and act as if y dna and mtdna arrived in one area 30,000 years ago and nothing changed after that his migration maps are extremly inaccurate. Spencer wells knows a ton about dna he is a total experts but he is a terribly investigator. When figuring out how dna haplogroups spread and when u need to be like a cop not a scientist.

another thing spencer wells in my opinon is a little afro centric he really loves to tell about how humans started in africa( which is true) he also stats that the first people looked black when that is a good guess but it is more complicated than a simply answer like that. he thinks of austrlien abrognals as more orignal human because they look more black than europeans which is very unaccruarte.





Also, I am curious about my Y-DNA L-21 result. While I have read much concerning its possible "Celtic" origins, I know that language/culture is not the same thing as genetics, and I would like to learn more.

Actulley the Celts where a ethnicity not just a language and culture. let me explain the celts mainly decend from what i call the invading R1b L11 Indo Europeans they spoke proto Germanic Italo Celtic about 6,000 years ago and lived in central Russia. I know this sounds funny but the signature of Celtic people and the R1b l11 Indo Europeans is extremely high amounts of red hair. Today red hair almost only exsists in western Europe in the territory of R1b l11 subclades the more R1b the more red hair except for the Udmurt people in central Russia who probably get red hair from the same ancient source. i am not teh only one that thinks red hair is contented to R1b L11 indo Europeans http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/origins_of_red_hair.shtml.

The R1b L11 indo europeans who spread to western Europe where not teh only indo europeans who had alot of red hair. The Indo Iraniens who stared to spread to asia from central russia about 5,000ybp tehy reached sibera by 4,500ybp and the around India and Iran by 3,500-4,000ybp. I know when u hear the name Indo Iranien u think of middle eastern people but the first Indo Iranian speakers lived in Russia.The famous 4,000 year old tarum mummieshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarim_mummies in western China they are famous because they where european people in china 4,000 years ago they had Y DNA r1a1a and from what i have heard some had red hair but i do know that later tarium mummies from 3,400 and 3,000ybp had red hair.

we also have DNA from 3,800 year old Indo Iraniens in south siberia they had Y DNA r1a1a they have European and Caucasin mtDNA U, H, and T and the majority had blonde hair and light eyes but no redheads where found. the famous sythiens who dominated central asia from 3,000-2,000ybp they where Indo Iranians most peopel think they came from eastern Europe actulley they migrated from asia to europe. We have DNA from sythiens they had teh same hair color eye color, y dna, and mtdna of earlier indo Iranians this means sythiens came 100% from teh first indo iraniens. sythiens where known for red hair same with other indo iraniens like cimmerians.

just in case u think all the stuff i am saying is a lie here are examples of modern redheads in indo iranien speaking areas of the middle east.
Pashuten redhead in Afghanistan. descended from chariot riding Indo Iraniens who migrated in the area from 4,000-3,500ybp.
5948
Kurdish redhead in Syria decended from Cimmerians who migrated out of the black sea to that area 2,600-2,800ybp
5949
Kalash redhead in Pakistan descended from Vedic Indo Iraniens who rided chariots and worshiped Indra who conquered the Indus valley civilization 3,500-4,000ybp
5950

i know for people who have grown up with other people who are mainly of western european decent (Irish, English, German, French, Danish) which is what most white americans are. we assume red hair is spread out in all of europe but is actulley is not and the fact indo Iranian speaking ethnic groups in Asia still have red hair is very significant in my opinon it is proof indo iraniens had red hair well i guess ancient writting from Chinese and Greeks also proves it.

So Celtic people where apart of a ethnic group that ethnic group was teh r1b l11 indo europeans technically ancient Germanic tribes where also apart of that group but they had les amounts of orignal r1b l11 indo european blood than celts. U have R1b l21 which is insular celtic the insular Celts conquered Britain and Ireland from 4,000-3,000 years ago. the Insular celts had teh most orignal r1b L11 indo european blood that is why modern Irish, Welsh, highlander scottish, Cornish, and Britannys have the highest amount of R1b 90-100% that is also why they have the most red hair 10-15%. The insular celts where not excatley close relatives to Gaulic celts their only relation was the R1b L11 indo european blood.



As I stated in my introduction note, most of my ancestors were in the British Isles before immigrating to the American colonies, and, for what it's worth, my surname is probably of Norman place-name origin.

Thanks, All - Sandlapper

Since u have Insular Celtic R1b L21 that means ur direct paternal ancestry is Celtic not Norman. Since a Y DNA haplogroup is the same as a surname it is passed down from father to son ur surname might not be norman. to figure out ur full ancestry it depends what part of the British isles is ur ancestry from. If it is central and southern England u have mainly Anglo Saxon/ Germanic ancestry with some Insular Celtic. If it is from highlands of Scotland, Ireland, or Wale u have by far mainly Insular Celtic ancestry. If u are from lowlands of Scotland then u have more insular Celtic but still alot of Anglo Saxon/ Germanic.

Sandlapper
09-07-13, 04:04
Thanks, Fire Haired, for the well thought out and very informative response. I really appreciate you taking the time to try to dig up some information on the H16b mtHaplogroup. I'll just have to keep at it. It seems that that lineage needs more research and more individuals to share their results.
As to the L-21 result, I only wonder if my ancestor was in Ireland/Great Britain and migrated to Brittany due to Anglo-Saxon pressure and, eventually, migrated back to England with the Normans about 500 years later. I know that I will never know, but it's fun to ponder. Also, I realize that a particular surname can become attached to an individual under many diverse circumstances - just part of the mystery!

Thanks again for the response!

- Sandlapper

Sandlapper
09-07-13, 07:21
I actually found the complete genetic sequence of H16b on the NCBI GenBank site. I can't post a link here until I have reached 10 posts on Eupedia - so I am using this note to add 1!
I don't have the necessary skills to decipher the content of the link, but perhaps some of you would be interested in the science. I will add the link when I can.

Sandlapper
14-07-13, 00:48
Just wanted to add a couple of links concerning mtDNA haplogroup H16b:

Complete genome of H16b: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/nuccore/JX423390

Sequence H16 group: http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_by_group/h16_genbank_sequences.htm