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View Full Version : Ordering a DNA test in France is a crime punishable by heavy fines and jail time



Maciamo
14-07-13, 09:08
This is not a joke. Read this article (http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/france-upholds-the-ban-on-paternity-tests/). I have had confirmation from official French websites that this was entirely true. If you order a paternity test via the Internet or by telephone in France, you risk a year in prison and a fine of € 15,000 (Article 226-28 of the Penal Code (http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006070719&idArticle=LEGIARTI000024325278&dateTexte=20130207)).

Practically any DNA test can be construed as a paternity test, even if it is not advertised as such. Anybody can disprove a man's paternity by comparing even very limited segments of DNA between two individuals. The only DNA test that wouldn't count as paternity test would be an mtDNA test (as mitochondrial DNA is only inherited through one's mother). Even an extremely basic test for a single mutation could in practice happen to disprove a paternity event, if the presumed father and son are homozygous for different alleles (e.g. the presumed father has the CC allele while the son has TT). The last example will only be conclusive in a minority of cases, but can still be regarded as a form of paternity test.

Since there is no probation possible for a paternity test (once you know, you know, and it cannot be undone), the jail sentence provided by the law cannot be converted into a suspended sentence. French judges also happen to have much less freedom to interpret the law as in countries using common law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law) (i.e. in most of the English-speaking world). A French judge has to enforce the law the way lawmakers enacted it. In other words ordering a DNA in France will inevitably land you in prison if you are found guilty.

With this ridiculous legislation, France, the so-called land of Human Rights, is breaching some of men's most fundamental modern rights:

- the right of knowing one's genome, knowing who one is.
- the right of knowing one's genetic risks for diseases.
- the right of knowing for sure that a man is the father of his children
- the right of knowing if one was adopted
- the right to search for one's biological parent(s)
- the right to use genetic genealogy to complete one's paper genealogy.
- the right to know one's genetic make-up from a population genetics's point of view (knowing one's "ethnic admixtures" and where one fits in the world's genetic landscape).


It is time that French lawmakers put an end to this absurdity. What I cannot understand is how the French people, known for going on strike and staging nationwide demonstrations at the drop of a hat for much less serious infringement of their rights, and sometimes even for necessary reforms, have never objected to this serious breach of rights. How can the French gather millions of demonstrators for or against gay marriage (which concerns only a small minority of the population), but not fight for the essential rights listed above. How can a man ever love and care about his children without knowing if they are truly his ? And how can you invest in a proper upbringing and education of your kids if you don't know for sure they are yours ? It may sound cynical, but the figures don't lie. In any country, whatever the culture, religion, or degree of sexual freedom, at least a few percent of all children born under wedlock are not the husband's biological children. France has long been one of the most libertine countries on Earth, so French men should be more concerned than others about their presumed paternity.

LeBrok
14-07-13, 17:14
As you put it, it is truly absurdity.
I wonder if this law extends to dead people, and tests on ancient bones will be allowed in France.

Maciamo
14-07-13, 20:02
As you put it, it is truly absurdity.
I wonder if this law extends to dead people, and tests on ancient bones will be allowed in France.

DNA tests are allowed for research purposes. Anyway, so as long as the DNA tested belongs only to a dead person it cannot be an issue since only a person alive taking a DNA test can go to jail. As there need to be at least two people tested for a paternity test, I wonder if both would be equally sentenced or only the person who ordered and paid for the test. And what if a third unrelated person is the one ordering and paying for the test ?

LeBrok
15-07-13, 04:12
As there need to be at least two people tested for a paternity test, I wonder if both would be equally sentenced or only the person who ordered and paid for the test. And what if a third unrelated person is the one ordering and paying for the test ?
I think you found a loophole. If third person is not french citizen it cannot be prosecuted. Well, at least if he never go to France.

BakodiP
15-07-13, 07:44
What about ordering from a nearby country? e.g. Belgium, UK, Germany?

Maciamo
15-07-13, 09:17
What about ordering from a nearby country? e.g. Belgium, UK, Germany?

AFAIK France is the only country in the world where DNA are prohibited. It is not just prohibited for French companies to sell paternity tests, but also for anyone in France (French citizen or foreign alike) to order such tests, even from another country.

In Germany only 'secret paternity tests' are illegal (meaning without the consent of the child or its mother). Personally I cannot see how a mother who refuses her partner to take a paternity test for their offspring can be trusted. If she doesn't have anything to hide, the mother should always agree to a paternity test.

France is also one of the few developed countries where artificial insemination or medically assisted procreation are illegal for single women as well as for some married women (namely lesbians, since gay marriage is now legal in France, but not IVF for gay people). I have recently pointed out a number of reasons (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28844-The-Dark-Side-of-France) why France could be regarded as backward in terms of system and legislation.

There is one essential flaw in those French bans. French people are actually free to go abroad to take a DNA test or conduct artificial insemination. They won't be prosecuted as long as these do not take place on French soil. That is not true of every country. For example Turkey has banned trips abroad for artificial insemination (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8568733.stm) and those who do face possible criminal charges.

It would be interesting to know whether Turkish immigrants to, say Germany, who have kept their Turkish nationality, could be prosecuted for conducting artificial insemination in Europe if they ever decide to visit Turkey, based on the fact that they are still Turkish citizens and should therefore respect Turkish laws, even if they have never lived there. After all, US citizens must respect US laws and even pay their taxes in the USA even if they were born outside the USA and never lived in the US in their life. Being the citizen of a country does not only have advantages.

Maciamo
15-07-13, 09:58
I think you found a loophole. If third person is not french citizen it cannot be prosecuted. Well, at least if he never go to France.

This is not certain. After checking (http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006070719&idArticle=LEGIARTI000024325278&dateTexte=20130207), the French law actually says that it is illegal to search or divulge information about a person's identity through genetic fingerprints. So the interdiction is much wider than just taking or ordering a DNA test. Anybody who seeks to find genetic information about oneself or somebody else can be prosecuted, even if they fail. Anyone who helps in the search of identity or provides the genetic information (for example the testing company) will also be prosecuted. Not only is the law absurd, it is amazingly wide ranging in its implications.

You are right that a third person ordering the test cannot be prosecuted if they are not French and never set foot in France (even for transit at the airport), but the people whose DNA is tested will be prosecuted anyway because they are the one seeking the genetic information or trying to prove a paternity. So French people are fùcked no matter what. Unless, as I said above, they can prove that they did the DNA test while they were not in France (but they would probably need a proof of residence in another country if it is in the EU, as the open borders have removed the stamps on the passport proving that they have left France).

Templar
15-07-13, 11:07
Any ideas why the French government would want to restrict paternity tests?

ElHorsto
15-07-13, 12:21
Any ideas why the French government would want to restrict paternity tests?

Maternity is naturally obvious for the mother, whereas paternity is not for the father. By the way, this is the root cause of patriarchal societies, imho.
Until 2008 in Germany it was forbidden for a man to make a paternity test without consent of the mother, which is nonsense because exactly in case of justified doubt the mother would not comply. But 15%-50% of men who had doubts about their child's ancestry were right. It was changed in 2008 due to public pressure and it was claimed to have been an accidental legal gap since 1998, which I don't quite believe.

Templar
15-07-13, 13:28
Maternity is naturally obvious for the mother, whereas paternity is not for the father. By the way, this is the root cause of patriarchal societies, imho.

Im aware of all that, it still doesn't explain the French government's motives. Is it to protect women who had to lie to their husbands? Seems pretty ****** up.

ElHorsto
15-07-13, 13:48
Im aware of all that, it still doesn't explain the French government's motives. Is it to protect women who had to lie to their husbands? Seems pretty ****** up.

I don't know whether it is intentional, but it is effectively the result. It could have something to do with the financial child support in case of divorce.

hope
15-07-13, 15:42
I find this an extremely odd situation.
So, this would,no doubt mean, that a woman might simply prove she had an intimate relationship with a man and claim the offspring as his. The child would then be entitled to financial support from said father and also to inherit whatever resources he may have upon his death, be it money or estate.....that`s a bit off.

It seems the only reason the French have for this nonsense law is, paternity tests may cause friction within the family. Well if one is in doubt regarding being the father of the child his partner has had, there surely would already be ripples in that relationship I might think.

hope
15-07-13, 17:36
I don't know whether it is intentional, but it is effectively the result. It could have something to do with the financial child support in case of divorce.

I thought this also, but does it not apply to any couple, say a man and woman who just dated a while, or have I got that bit wrong? Is it only applicable to married couples? [ which doesn`t make it any better, naturally.] It just seems very peculiar.

Maciamo
15-07-13, 17:41
I find this an extremely odd situation.
So, this would,no doubt mean, that a woman might simply prove she had an intimate relationship with a man and claim the offspring as his. The child would then be entitled to financial support from said father and also to inherit whatever resources he may have upon his death, be it money or estate.....that`s a bit off.

It seems the only reason the French have for this nonsense law is, paternity tests may cause friction within the family. Well if one is in doubt regarding being the father of the child his partner has had, there surely would already be ripples in that relationship I might think.

Actually there is one exception to the law: when the paternity test is ordered by a court. That's the only case when it is allowed in France. In other words a man needs to sue his wife or threaten divorce in court if we wants to get a paternity test. No need to ask why the system is like that. It's good business for lawyers. That's all.

Maciamo
15-07-13, 17:47
I thought this also, but does it not apply to any couple, say a man and woman who just dated a while, or have I got that bit wrong? Is it only applicable to married couples? [ which doesn`t make it any better, naturally.] It just seems very peculiar.

In France the father of children born from a married woman is always assumed to be the husband. French law seems to be protecting men who have extramarital affairs from having to pay child support if one of their 'conquests' falls pregnant. The woman will never be able to prove the paternity since they are not married and cannot order a DNA test to prove who is the father. Married men and women have nothing to gain from this system. It only benefits and protects philanderers. It's a very medieval system.

ElHorsto
15-07-13, 18:04
I thought this also, but does it not apply to any couple, say a man and woman who just dated a while, or have I got that bit wrong? Is it only applicable to married couples? [ which doesn`t make it any better, naturally.] It just seems very peculiar.

Maybe the background in France is different than in Germany, Maciamo's explanations make sense to me.
In Germany it was the cheating wifes who were protected until 2008, because husbands could been sentenced to pay a lifelong support after divorce despite the wife was responsible, but they could not prove it.

ebAmerican
15-07-13, 18:13
"Any paternity testing without a court order is banned, due to the official desire to "preserve the peace" within French families, with the French government citing psychologists who state that fatherhood is determined by society rather than biology. French men often circumvent these laws by sending samples of DNA to foreign laboratories, but risk prosecution if caught. The maximum penalty for carrying out secret paternity testing is one year in prison and a 15,000 fine." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_testing

I doubt genetic testing for genealogical research and not specifically for a paternal test would be prosecuted. I think if the court found the genealogical test being used for purpose of paternity, then the subject could be prosecuted.

Does FTDNA allow geneologic testing in France? Will they send tests through the mail, and receive samples? If the law was for all genetic testing, then FTDNA would have a policy not to do business with France.

hope
15-07-13, 18:16
Maybe the background in France is different than in Germany, Maciamo's explanations make sense to me.
In Germany it was the cheating wifes who were protected until 2008, because husbands could been sentenced to pay a lifelong support after divorce despite the wife was responsible, but they could not prove it.

I was just thinking if it applied across the board, then a man could after dating some girl for a time, be introduced to his "offspring" and be expected to help put the child through school..and on his death, even if he had no further contacts with woman or child, find his estate divide between this child and any future children he might have with a future wife.

That aside, I wonder we are only hearing about this law now. It is ridiculous that a person cannot know his DNA grouping or perhaps lineage, especially in these times when such things are so popular. Seems the French aren`t so avant-garde in this respect.

hope
15-07-13, 18:24
In France the father of children born from a married woman is always assumed to be the husband. French law seems to be protecting men who have extramarital affairs from having to pay child support if one of their 'conquests' falls pregnant. The woman will never be able to prove the paternity since they are not married and cannot order a DNA test to prove who is the father. Married men and women have nothing to gain from this system. It only benefits and protects philanderers. It's a very medieval system.

I see. That`s just absurd . However I wonder why the French themselves do not have more to say on the subject? Surely it can`t be case of.."we are French, and that`s all we need to know" ?

hope
15-07-13, 18:40
Actually there is one exception to the law: when the paternity test is ordered by a court. That's the only case when it is allowed in France. In other words a man needs to sue his wife or threaten divorce in court if we wants to get a paternity test. No need to ask why the system is like that. It's good business for lawyers. That's all.
I only just saw this reply. Of course, the lawyers...

Maciamo
15-07-13, 22:21
I doubt genetic testing for genealogical research and not specifically for a paternal test would be prosecuted. I think if the court found the genealogical test being used for purpose of paternity, then the subject could be prosecuted.

Does FTDNA allow geneologic testing in France? Will they send tests through the mail, and receive samples? If the law was for all genetic testing, then FTDNA would have a policy not to do business with France.

I checked and both FTDNA and 23andMe send kits to France.

Even if those tests are not specifically advertised as paternity tests, a person ordering it would still be prosecuted in France because the law prohibited any research regarding a person's identity through genetic testing. The law does not mention paternity test but "genetic fingerprints". That applies to any DNA test.

Maciamo
15-07-13, 22:51
I was just thinking if it applied across the board, then a man could after dating some girl for a time, be introduced to his "offspring" and be expected to help put the child through school..and on his death, even if he had no further contacts with woman or child, find his estate divide between this child and any future children he might have with a future wife.


Actually I think that with the present French system it is impossible for a woman to prove that her children are from anybody else than her husband. If she is not married then the father will be the first man who recognises the children as his. Otherwise the child will be considered fatherless ("natural child" as it is stated on French birth certificates).



That aside, I wonder we are only hearing about this law now. It is ridiculous that a person cannot know his DNA grouping or perhaps lineage, especially in these times when such things are so popular. Seems the French aren`t so avant-garde in this respect.

Exactly the way I feel.

Pi gman
16-07-13, 17:27
This law coupled with the recent revelations of NSA (and France) collecting all our communications has made it much more difficult for me to find my ancestors.

Before all of this became a focus I was making some headway winning the confidence of French internet friends who are also amateur genealogists. I was hopeful I could find someone of my surname who would do the y-DNA test which would help in my quest. As most of you probably know, the records of French (possibly) Huguenot are exceedingly difficult to find.

I now feel that most of that optimism I held is gone.

Maciamo
16-07-13, 21:43
This law coupled with the recent revelations of NSA (and France) collecting all our communications has made it much more difficult for me to find my ancestors.

Before all of this became a focus I was making some headway winning the confidence of French internet friends who are also amateur genealogists. I was hopeful I could find someone of my surname who would do the y-DNA test which would help in my quest. As most of you probably know, the records of French (possibly) Huguenot are exceedingly difficult to find.

I now feel that most of that optimism I held is gone.

The law isn't new. It dates from 1994.

Pi gman
16-07-13, 22:14
The law isn't new. It dates from 1994.

I've heard about this law before but I must admit I didn't really know the details of it until you posted it here. My mistaken assumption was that as long as a French citizen orders the test from another country they could still test their DNA. Boy was I wrong!

At any rate, in one conversation with a Frenchman I asked him about the French view of DNA tests and he replied that he did not really think it was worth it. I suppose, if you are French, the feeling is why look further!

Maciamo
17-07-13, 12:12
At any rate, in one conversation with a Frenchman I asked him about the French view of DNA tests and he replied that he did not really think it was worth it. I suppose, if you are French, the feeling is why look further!

I have also tried fro many years to stimulate interest in genetic genealogy among French speakers, but was confronted with the same kind of reaction. French speakers (in France, Belgium or Switzerland) have an incomprehensible lack of interest in genetics. It is not related to the ban on DNA tests in France since the tests are perfectly legal in Belgium and Switzerland. In both countries the gap in orders between French- and Dutch-/German- speakers is huge. The Brabant DNA Project, sponsored by the Flemish government, expanded its range to the whole of Belgium, but after several years they never managed to find enough participants from French-speaking Belgium. There were over 10 times less French-speakers ordering the test than Flemish speakers. That is utterly baffling. I have tried hard to convince relatives and friends to take DNA tests, either for ancestry or medical risks, but nobody cares, even those with a medical background !

LeBrok
17-07-13, 17:39
I have also tried fro many years to stimulate interest in genetic genealogy among French speakers, but was confronted with the same kind of reaction. French speakers (in France, Belgium or Switzerland) have an incomprehensible lack of interest in genetics. It is not related to the ban on DNA tests in France since the tests are perfectly legal in Belgium and Switzerland. In both countries the gap in orders between French- and Dutch-/German- speakers is huge. The Brabant DNA Project, sponsored by the Flemish government, expanded its range to the whole of Belgium, but after several years they never managed to find enough participants from French-speaking Belgium. There were over 10 times less French-speakers ordering the test than Flemish speakers. That is utterly baffling. I have tried hard to convince relatives and friends to take DNA tests, either for ancestry or medical risks, but nobody cares, even those with a medical background !

Now ban of testing makes better sense. French Law mirrors mentality and customs of society. It might be true to any democratic country.

Pi gman
17-07-13, 18:56
Now ban of testing makes better sense. French Law mirrors mentality and customs of society. It might be true to any democratic country.

Much more important to my French friend is how to reduce the amount of carbon emissions by using less fossil fuels. We have discussed the best possible ways for countries to produce electricity with minimum impact on the environment. He disagrees with nuclear power plants as a good option even though the majority of electricity in France is produced this way. In contrast to the U.S., French are much more interested in lowering world pollution. The solar impulse team from Switzerland and France recently completed a flight across America without using one drop of fuel by flying an experimental airplane powered only by solar panels. I watched it being streamed live every chance I had.

I have looked at houses for sale in France and they most always list the carbon footprint of the house.... something that is never done here. It would be a great place for me and my family to live except for the somewhat restrictive laws regarding home schooling and of course the law which forbids DNA testing. I do however like the environmentalist/minimalist approach to living and my wife and I think more like Europeans than Americans. We especially like the systems of trains and buses used in France and in Europe rather that what we have here. Living without a car would be something I would like to try again.

Some of the French are interested in genealogy and some are very keenly working on the records and have released a huge number of them dating back to the 16th and 17th centuries. These are mostly free on line. Now if I could just learn some more French! They are just not really interested in DNA.

LeBrok
18-07-13, 02:42
Much more important to my French friend is how to reduce the amount of carbon emissions by using less fossil fuels. We have discussed the best possible ways for countries to produce electricity with minimum impact on the environment. He disagrees with nuclear power plants as a good option even though the majority of electricity in France is produced this way. In contrast to the U.S., French are much more interested in lowering world pollution. The solar impulse team from Switzerland and France recently completed a flight across America without using one drop of fuel by flying an experimental airplane powered only by solar panels. I watched it being streamed live every chance I had.

I have looked at houses for sale in France and they most always list the carbon footprint of the house.... something that is never done here. It would be a great place for me and my family to live except for the somewhat restrictive laws regarding home schooling and of course the law which forbids DNA testing. I do however like the environmentalist/minimalist approach to living and my wife and I think more like Europeans than Americans. We especially like the systems of trains and buses used in France and in Europe rather that what we have here. Living without a car would be something I would like to try again.

Some of the French are interested in genealogy and some are very keenly working on the records and have released a huge number of them dating back to the 16th and 17th centuries. These are mostly free on line. Now if I could just learn some more French! They are just not really interested in DNA.

I gather that French are very romantic people. They dream and hope for good genealogy, descended from good families, than be disappointed by genetic tests. Their environmental views are more of romantic kind than pragmatic and based on statistics.

PS. I like French language too, but no time nor memory to learn fast.

Maciamo
18-07-13, 09:02
Now ban of testing makes better sense. French Law mirrors mentality and customs of society. It might be true to any democratic country.

I wasn't referring to paternity tests, which is the main target of the French ban. Most French lawmakers probably aren't even aware of what genetic genealogy is.

Maciamo
18-07-13, 09:08
Much more important to my French friend is how to reduce the amount of carbon emissions by using less fossil fuels. We have discussed the best possible ways for countries to produce electricity with minimum impact on the environment. He disagrees with nuclear power plants as a good option even though the majority of electricity in France is produced this way. In contrast to the U.S., French are much more interested in lowering world pollution.
...
I have looked at houses for sale in France and they most always list the carbon footprint of the house.... something that is never done here.

Europeans in general are more interested in lowering world pollution than Americans. It is not a French phenomenon. Actually the French are not at the forefront in the matter of eco-consciousness. That would be the Germans and the Scandinavians.



Some of the French are interested in genealogy and some are very keenly working on the records and have released a huge number of them dating back to the 16th and 17th centuries. These are mostly free on line. Now if I could just learn some more French! They are just not really interested in DNA.

What baffled me is that I have tried to promote genetic genealogy on French-speaking genealogy forums and even there the interest was almost inexistent.

nordicwarrior
18-07-13, 11:00
Could the "genetic avoidance" found in France have anything to do with their experiences in WWII (talk of "pure" Aryan race, etc.)? There are charged elements inherent the field of DNA-- maybe the French want nothing to do with it.

Pi gman
18-07-13, 15:05
Could the "genetic avoidance" found in France have anything to do with their experiences in WWII (talk of "pure" Aryan race, etc.)? There are charged elements inherent the field of DNA-- maybe the French want nothing to do with it.

That could be the real reason! The experience of the French going through WWII would have been horrible as I heard my parents and grandparents talk about it. I have often thought that could be the problem and much closer to home than for us. Even if the current generation did not experience the horrors of the war, their parents and grandparents in France did.

Have you ever seen the footage from that era when the Nazis were marching-parading through Paris? It would be something that would have terrified all of them to their very core.

Being able to identify certain ethnic groups would be a fearful thing especially if someone like Hitler or even J. Edgar Hoover had that information and used it against us!

Maciamo
18-07-13, 17:11
Could the "genetic avoidance" found in France have anything to do with their experiences in WWII (talk of "pure" Aryan race, etc.)? There are charged elements inherent the field of DNA-- maybe the French want nothing to do with it.

Very doubtful. French speakers are really the only exception in Western Europe. As I explained before, Belgians are very strongly divided along linguistic lines for DNA tests. Yet their experience of WWII was identical. Besides, if anybody should feel awkward about talks of genetic purity it is the Germans themselves. Yet there are plenty of DNA results from Germany.

nordicwarrior
18-07-13, 17:31
Very doubtful. French speakers are really the only exception in Western Europe. As I explained before, Belgians are very strongly divided along linguistic lines for DNA tests. Yet their experience of WWII was identical. Besides, if anybody should feel awkward about talks of genetic purity it is the Germans themselves. Yet there are plenty of DNA results from Germany. Well, it's a mystery either way. I'm surprised by the number of people here in the U.S. who want nothing to do with historical genetic testing.

Pi gman
18-07-13, 22:33
Well, it's a mystery either way. I'm surprised by the number of people here in the U.S. who want nothing to do with historical genetic testing.

Nordic,

It may be similar to the huge indifference most people here in the U.S. have towards genealogy in general. My wife and I both love genealogy but we know very few family members or friends who enjoy our hobby.

Most people do not know past their grandparents what their heritage is. What makes it worse for some of us, we are just beginning to get hints of our immigrant's countries of origin. This seems to be vastly different from the majority of Americans as most can identify their ancestry to English, Irish, Italian, etc.

In both of our ancestral lines we cannot find any who came through Ellis Island. They were already here in the 1600's or earlier. Finding those records through the pre revolution history is almost impossible!

More records are appearing on line all the time, however, and we still have some hope!

ElHorsto
20-07-13, 22:16
Very doubtful. French speakers are really the only exception in Western Europe. As I explained before, Belgians are very strongly divided along linguistic lines for DNA tests. Yet their experience of WWII was identical. Besides, if anybody should feel awkward about talks of genetic purity it is the Germans themselves. Yet there are plenty of DNA results from Germany.

Why exactly should Germans feel more awkward than others when doing DNA test?

ElHorsto
20-07-13, 22:28
Could the "genetic avoidance" found in France have anything to do with their experiences in WWII (talk of "pure" Aryan race, etc.)? There are charged elements inherent the field of DNA-- maybe the French want nothing to do with it.

I also think it's possible, especially when thinking about eugenicidal tendencies and severe privacy violations. Since the French are known for having national pride, they are possibly a little bit more aware not to be controlled by foreign powers. Just my guess.

Maciamo
21-07-13, 09:11
Why exactly should Germans feel more awkward than others when doing DNA test?

I personally don't think they should feel awkard about it. I was replying to nordicquarreler who said that the French 'genetic avoidance' might be due to their experience of Nazi eugenics during WWII. My point was that if the French had any qualms about DNA testing because of that, then the Germans should too as their memory of Nazi eugenics is even stronger than in France.

Anyway I completely disagree with nordicquarreler that this is a reason why modern French people avoid DNA tests. It's a fanciful argument from someone who doesn't know much about France or French people.

ElHorsto
21-07-13, 16:30
I personally don't think they should feel awkard about it. I was replying to nordicquarreler who said that the French 'genetic avoidance' might be due to their experience of Nazi eugenics during WWII. My point was that if the French had any qualms about DNA testing because of that, then the Germans should too as their memory of Nazi eugenics is even stronger than in France.

Anyway I completely disagree with nordicquarreler that this is a reason why modern French people avoid DNA tests. It's a fanciful argument from someone who doesn't know much about France or French people.

Ok, but I was referring to the french laws not the people. I'm thinking that Iceland once got a lot of money from selling their genome to a US company back in 2000. Maybe France considers its genome like an asset too. If they would allow DNA tests then the neighbouring data octopussy would steal them easily, especially when done by foreign companies. Probably the french court ensures that the DNA tests are done by french companies only?

silkyslovanbojkovsky
21-08-13, 18:50
This is not a joke. Read this article (http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/france-upholds-the-ban-on-paternity-tests/). I have had confirmation from official French websites that this was entirely true. If you order a paternity test via the Internet or by telephone in France, you risk a year in prison and a fine of € 15,000 (Article 226-28 of the Penal Code (http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006070719&idArticle=LEGIARTI000024325278&dateTexte=20130207)).

Practically any DNA test can be construed as a paternity test, even if it is not advertised as such. Anybody can disprove a man's paternity by comparing even very limited segments of DNA between two individuals. The only DNA test that wouldn't count as paternity test would be an mtDNA test (as mitochondrial DNA is only inherited through one's mother). Even an extremely basic test for a single mutation could in practice happen to disprove a paternity event, if the presumed father and son are homozygous for different alleles (e.g. the presumed father has the CC allele while the son has TT). The last example will only be conclusive in a minority of cases, but can still be regarded as a form of paternity test.

Since there is no probation possible for a paternity test (once you know, you know, and it cannot be undone), the jail sentence provided by the law cannot be converted into a suspended sentence. French judges also happen to have much less freedom to interpret the law as in countries using common law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law) (i.e. in most of the English-speaking world). A French judge has to enforce the law the way lawmakers enacted it. In other words ordering a DNA in France will inevitably land you in prison if you are found guilty.

With this ridiculous legislation, France, the so-called land of Human Rights, is breaching some of men's most fundamental modern rights:

- the right of knowing one's genome, knowing who one is.
- the right of knowing one's genetic risks for diseases.
- the right of knowing for sure that a man is the father of his children
- the right of knowing if one was adopted
- the right to search for one's biological parent(s)
- the right to use genetic genealogy to complete one's paper genealogy.
- the right to know one's genetic make-up from a population genetics's point of view (knowing one's "ethnic admixtures" and where one fits in the world's genetic landscape).


It is time that French lawmakers put an end to this absurdity. What I cannot understand is how the French people, known for going on strike and staging nationwide demonstrations at the drop of a hat for much less serious infringement of their rights, and sometimes even for necessary reforms, have never objected to this serious breach of rights. How can the French gather millions of demonstrators for or against gay marriage (which concerns only a small minority of the population), but not fight for the essential rights listed above. How can a man ever love and care about his children without knowing if they are truly his ? And how can you invest in a proper upbringing and education of your kids if you don't know for sure they are yours ? It may sound cynical, but the figures don't lie. In any country, whatever the culture, religion, or degree of sexual freedom, at least a few percent of all children born under wedlock are not the husband's biological children. France has long been one of the most libertine countries on Earth, so French men should be more concerned than others about their presumed paternity.

That's ridiculous, I had never heard of that. No wonder Gerard Depardieu is a Russian Citizen now.

silkyslovanbojkovsky
21-08-13, 18:52
I also think it's possible, especially when thinking about eugenicidal tendencies and severe privacy violations. Since the French are known for having national pride, they are possibly a little bit more aware not to be controlled by foreign powers. Just my guess.

If that's the case this political correctness needs to come to an end in Europe. That's complete Bull

Ike
21-08-13, 21:26
Could the "genetic avoidance" found in France have anything to do with their experiences in WWII (talk of "pure" Aryan race, etc.)?.

Nope. Their experience wasn't that bad considering some other countries.
My guess would be that the French government is aware of statistics on how much people practice sex out of marriage.

Noman
22-08-13, 21:38
That's a shame because french dna is potentially one of the most interesting groups.

I undertsand wanting to protect women, the injunction over actually testing yourself has got to be a mistake.

ElHorsto
25-08-13, 15:07
If that's the case this political correctness needs to come to an end in Europe. That's complete Bull

It has nothing to do with political correctness, women protection or sex outside marriage.

Noman
26-08-13, 09:54
It has nothing to do with political correctness, women protection or sex outside marriage.

Ok, so what's it about, then?

Sile
26-08-13, 12:39
Ok, so what's it about, then?

My cousin in Toulouse said to me, that its about not allowing tests for paternity issues unless ordered by blah, blah...............a part I did not understand.

He also said that tests for ancestry it was Ok

KenCalgary
11-10-13, 17:08
Well, it's a mystery either way. I'm surprised by the number of people here in the U.S. who want nothing to do with historical genetic testing.

I'm not surprised that many in the U.S.A. do not want genetic testing. There is a very traditional Christian element that believes strongly that God created Man in his image and do not condone evolutionary studies, beliefs or teachings. DNA testing and all the implications they bring would not be in favour with this group.

MOESAN
11-10-13, 18:39
If a can say something concerning France, I would say it is become a "jacobine" centralist state which always fear the regionalisms and has repulsion to teach and learn the multiform an somewhat different histories of its provinces (current borders of France are very young in front of History, indeed!!! nothing eternel in it!) - the "Jacobines" won the french revolution and dreamed a monolitic state where all citizens are "equal" and "interchangeable" (the result is an inequallist country concerning social classes spite the verbal affirmations but with uniformised culture, just the contrary of what was to hope, for I think - so, genetic studies that could destroy the myth of collective uniformity beside "richness" of individual variability is a danger for the Republic! the other reasons concerning indiviual private protection are just a pretext, I believe - when french politic people speak about "decentralisation" they think "délocalisation of centralised services" with always the same central power -

Maciamo
11-10-13, 19:21
If a can say something concerning France, I would say it is become a "jacobine" centralist state which always fear the regionalisms and has repulsion to teach and learn the multiform an somewhat different histories of its provinces (current borders of France are very young in front of History, indeed!!! nothing eternel in it!) - the "Jacobines" won the french revolution and dreamed a monolitic state where all citizens are "equal" and "interchangeable" (the result is an inequallist country concerning social classes spite the verbal affirmations but with uniformised culture, just the contrary of what was to hope, for I think - so, genetic studies that could destroy the myth of collective uniformity beside "richness" of individual variability is a danger for the Republic! the other reasons concerning indiviual private protection are just a pretext, I believe - when french politic people speak about "decentralisation" they think "délocalisation of centralised services" with always the same central power -

I agree. France is the only large country in Western Europe where the state does all it can to avoid recognising the unique ethno-cultural, linguistic and historical identities of its regions. Its ironic considering that France is the most diverse country in Europe in all these respects. The UK, Germany, Italy and Spain all have states or autonomous regions. Only France doesn't.

Alan
31-05-14, 12:59
I agree. France is the only large country in Western Europe where the state does all it can to avoid recognising the unique ethno-cultural, linguistic and historical identities of its regions. Its ironic considering that France is the most diverse country in Europe in all these respects. The UK, Germany, Italy and Spain all have states or autonomous regions. Only France doesn't.

This is the laicism of which Atatürk adopted his kemalism and which yet makes it so hard for Turkey to become a democratic country. And they ALWAYS use France as prime example for their absurd political system. It always swings between a kemalist to a radical islamistic system.

andrewqazx
13-01-15, 14:38
probably cause they dont want people to discover some illegitimate royalty

Maciamo
13-01-15, 15:56
probably cause they dont want people to discover some illegitimate royalty

Try illegitimate politicians and businessmen' kids.

Melancon
13-01-15, 16:04
This is a very weird article. I have found French people on 23andme who have done it DNA testing though. Don't know if it was before that law was enabled.

I think this "law" is absolutely ridiculous. France always has the most ridiculous laws IMO. France is basically a Marxist totalitarian state.

Melancon
13-01-15, 16:08
Try illegitimate politicians and businessmen' kids.I know the real reason why :) But I cannot state it here; as it is controversial and illegal.

I'll just say, in a subtler way; that France's laws are implemented with an agenda by Communist extremists who don't believe in "race".

Maciamo
13-01-15, 16:21
I know the real reason why :) But I cannot state it here; as it is controversial and illegal.

I'll just say, in a subtler way; that France's laws are implemented with an agenda by Communist extremists who don't believe in "race".

It's true that the French government tries hard, through the media and education, to make its citizens believe that races and ethnicities don't exist. It is even illegal in France to make statistics about ethnic groups. Once immigrants have been naturalised, they are French and that's it. There are no statistics showing the actual percentage of people with this or that ancestry. That's the opposite of the USA where people are constantly asked to choose their racial group (Caucasian, Hispanic, African-American, Native American, etc.) when filling forms. The only way one can guess the number of people of Maghreban descent living in France, for instance, is to look at the total number of Muslim people (and deduct a few percent's for other ancestry).

But that's not the reason DNA are banned in France. The ban specifically targets paternity test and dates back from 1992, an age when it was impossible to predict a person's ancestry accurately through a DNA test (mind you it was still hard a few years ago).

Melancon
13-01-15, 16:33
I see what you're saying now. Still; I often wonder if these laws are more likewise to an extreme leftist Marxist agenda. Which is why the French haven't bothered to delete them.

I have loads of French ancestry myself; but I don't really like speaking the language very much; or even being in France. It just seems a bit demeaning to me. If I speak it, it would be the Cajun French version; which is very different from Standard French. And the Acadian accent is more appropriate to me than the Standard French one. I believe the Cajun French dialect is more archaic; and also evolved a little over time with slight few differences. So if I spoke to a French person from France with the Cajun French dialect; it would probably be like a Norwegian talking to a Swede somewhat.

Degredado
13-01-15, 17:52
It does seem bizarre that a Western European country, with a strong and deeply-rooted liberal tradition, would completely deny its citizens the right to learn more about themselves - not about other persons -, through the use of widely accepted, non-invasive, non-immoral scientific tests. It's a law that would be more fitting to the USSR, where the oppressive State always had an interest in blurring, if not downright erasing, all notions of ethnicity within such a huge and diverse country (it didn't matter if you were a Zoroastrian Martian, you were a Soviet and nothing more)

Angela
13-01-15, 18:11
As has been pointed out innumerable times, this law has nothing to do with ancestry testing...it has to do with paternity testing. There is nothing unusual in limiting the situations in which paternity can be contested. The problem is that the law is rather badly written and is thus susceptible to over-reaching on the part of the state.

Sile
13-01-15, 18:52
probably cause they dont want people to discover some illegitimate royalty

The french royalty became "illegitimate" once they made Napoleon Bonaparte emperor ...............

Degredado
13-01-15, 18:54
Even a prohibition on paternity testing seems nonsensical to me. Why can't someone know who their father is? It's entirely up to the State to decide who is the father of whom? Is it based on some kind of fear that DNA tests could start dissolving French families and make society collapse? I really don't get it.

Aberdeen
13-01-15, 19:15
Even a prohibition on paternity testing seems nonsensical to me. Why can't someone know who their father is? It's entirely up to the State to decide who is the father of whom? Is it based on some kind of fear that DNA tests could start dissolving French families and make society collapse? I really don't get it.

One thing government hates is insecurity of property rights, particularly real property rights. Questions about paternity would cause all kinds of lawsuits relating to wills and estates. If someone can't be sure that a person who offers property for sale is the rightful owner, the government does have the right to be concerned about that.

Melancon
13-01-15, 19:26
The french royalty became "illegitimate" once they made Napoleon Bonaparte emperor ...............Oddly enough; Napoleon Bonaparte had the Jewish subclade of haplogroup E1b1b. And he wasn't even "French"; and was also Corsican and Italian in origin.

Aberdeen
13-01-15, 19:38
Oddly enough; Napoleon Bonaparte had the Jewish subclade of haplogroup E1b1b. And he wasn't even "French"; and was also Corsican and Italian in origin.

Are you saying that Greeks and Albanians are Jewish? They seem to have about as high a rate of E1b1b as Jewish people do. It's less common in Corsica but about 8% of the population has it, and they're not all Jewish. E1b1b is scattered all around Europe at various levels and has probably been there since the Neolithic. Why would it matter if Napolean had a bit of Jewish ancestry anyway? He considered himself to be Corsican and Catholic.

Degredado
13-01-15, 19:40
One thing government hates is insecurity of property rights, particularly real property rights. Questions about paternity would cause all kinds of lawsuits relating to wills and estates.

Hmm, maybe. On the other hand, it basically allows men to evade all responsibility if they father an unwanted child. All he has to do is say, "well, the kid isn't mine", and then that's it? Unless French courts can determine paternity testing in such cases. The whole idea of this ban just seems like a heavy price to pay for a small gain.

Melancon
13-01-15, 20:15
Are you saying that Greeks and Albanians are Jewish? They seem to have about as high a rate of E1b1b as Jewish people do. It's less common in Corsica but about 8% of the population has it, and they're not all Jewish. E1b1b is scattered all around Europe at various levels and has probably been there since the Neolithic. Why would it matter if Napolean had a bit of Jewish ancestry anyway? He considered himself to be Corsican and Catholic.Yes but he was in no way French. At least, genetically.

Angela
13-01-15, 20:33
There are paternity proceedings in every modern jurisdiction, in so far as I'm aware, and paternity tests are routinely used in those proceedings.* (including France)The question usually arises in the context of support or custody proceedings. A mother directly, or Social Services on her behalf, sues to get child support from a putative father, and dna testing is used to prove paternity. (The state is not interested in using tax dollars to support children if it can be avoided.)

The more problematical situation is when a child is born in wedlock but the father either learns or suspects that he is not the biological father. Owing to the concern for family stability and the welfare of the child, there is, in every common law jurisdiction of which I'm aware, including the U.S., a presumption that a child conceived in wedlock is the child of the father. To defeat a claim for support or contest paternity a man must rebut that presumption. A dna test is one means, a new means, to overcome that presumption.

However, despite any test showing that he is not the biological father, a man can still be held to be the "legal" father and be required to pay child support. This is based on the common law principle that the welfare of the child is the primary concern. Absent specific legislation, judges have a great deal of discretion, and they are allowed to look at things like the length of the relationship, whether the man acted in loco parentis etc. Of course, some of these outcomes can seem very unfair to the man. See the following article for real life situations in which this plays out.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/22/magazine/22Paternity-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

It should be noted that French courts can and do order paternity testing. They don't, however, allow individual men to acquire and administer the test themselves.

*Edited for clarity

Aberdeen
13-01-15, 22:23
Yes but he was in no way French. At least, genetically.

Genetically, 7.5% of the total French population is E1b1b. The percentage varies dramatically from one part of the country to another, with the figures being higher for those parts of the country that probably still have a lot of Neolithic ancestry and lower in those areas where Indo-Europeans from the Eurasian steppes probably had more of a population replacement effect. So I suppose one could say that E1b1b is "more French" than R, since it's been in France longer.

Melancon
13-01-15, 23:00
Genetically, 7.5% of the total French population is E1b1b. The percentage varies dramatically from one part of the country to another, with the figures being higher for those parts of the country that probably still have a lot of Neolithic ancestry and lower in those areas where Indo-Europeans from the Eurasian steppes probably had more of a population replacement effect. So I suppose one could say that E1b1b is "more French" than R, since it's been in France longer.There are different subclades of E1b1b though. E-V13 is the only one I know of that developed in the European/Caucasian race. I believe the one Napoleon Bonaparte has; E-M34 is actually the most common haplogroup in Ashkenazi Jews. But I don't know if you would consider them Europeans.

Angela
13-01-15, 23:16
There are different subclades of E1b1b though. E-V13 is the only one I know of that developed in the European/Caucasian race. I believe the one Napoleon Bonaparte has; E-M34 is actually the most common haplogroup in Ashkenazi Jews. But I don't know if you would consider them Europeans.

There is no way of knowing when a specific line of E-M34 arrived in a particular area. It could have been any time from the Neolithic to the twenty years ago.

As for the Jews, they carry a specific subclade of E-M34. Unfortunately, they don't seem to have tested the Buonaparte family lineage to a more specific subclade. Jews also carry lots of what used to be called J1e, J2a, R1a, R1b, and other y lineages.

At any rate, a single uniparental marker does not determine ethnicity. Autosomes determine that, and if phenotype is any indication, Napoleon and his entire family have a great deal of Tuscan and Ligurian ancestry, as we indeed know from their documented family tree.

brianco
16-06-15, 22:02
Update!
Maybe it is OK for the government to do it, but not individuals?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/16/hunt-for-viking-dna-among-normandy-residents-riles-anti-racism-activists


This is not a joke. Read this article (http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/france-upholds-the-ban-on-paternity-tests/). I have had confirmation from official French websites that this was entirely true. If you order a paternity test via the Internet or by telephone in France, you risk a year in prison and a fine of € 15,000 (Article 226-28 of the Penal Code (http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006070719&idArticle=LEGIARTI000024325278&dateTexte=20130207)).

Practically any DNA test can be construed as a paternity test, even if it is not advertised as such. Anybody can disprove a man's paternity by comparing even very limited segments of DNA between two individuals. The only DNA test that wouldn't count as paternity test would be an mtDNA test (as mitochondrial DNA is only inherited through one's mother). Even an extremely basic test for a single mutation could in practice happen to disprove a paternity event, if the presumed father and son are homozygous for different alleles (e.g. the presumed father has the CC allele while the son has TT). The last example will only be conclusive in a minority of cases, but can still be regarded as a form of paternity test.

Since there is no probation possible for a paternity test (once you know, you know, and it cannot be undone), the jail sentence provided by the law cannot be converted into a suspended sentence. French judges also happen to have much less freedom to interpret the law as in countries using common law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law) (i.e. in most of the English-speaking world). A French judge has to enforce the law the way lawmakers enacted it. In other words ordering a DNA in France will inevitably land you in prison if you are found guilty.

With this ridiculous legislation, France, the so-called land of Human Rights, is breaching some of men's most fundamental modern rights:

- the right of knowing one's genome, knowing who one is.
- the right of knowing one's genetic risks for diseases.
- the right of knowing for sure that a man is the father of his children
- the right of knowing if one was adopted
- the right to search for one's biological parent(s)
- the right to use genetic genealogy to complete one's paper genealogy.
- the right to know one's genetic make-up from a population genetics's point of view (knowing one's "ethnic admixtures" and where one fits in the world's genetic landscape).


It is time that French lawmakers put an end to this absurdity. What I cannot understand is how the French people, known for going on strike and staging nationwide demonstrations at the drop of a hat for much less serious infringement of their rights, and sometimes even for necessary reforms, have never objected to this serious breach of rights. How can the French gather millions of demonstrators for or against gay marriage (which concerns only a small minority of the population), but not fight for the essential rights listed above. How can a man ever love and care about his children without knowing if they are truly his ? And how can you invest in a proper upbringing and education of your kids if you don't know for sure they are yours ? It may sound cynical, but the figures don't lie. In any country, whatever the culture, religion, or degree of sexual freedom, at least a few percent of all children born under wedlock are not the husband's biological children. France has long been one of the most libertine countries on Earth, so French men should be more concerned than others about their presumed paternity.

Rethel
16-06-15, 22:18
Do they really are so stupid
that they banned genetic? :petrified:

And this is the graetest achievement
that freewoldism+equality=stupidity :thinking:

Maciamo
17-06-15, 07:58
Update!
Maybe it is OK for the government to do it, but not individuals?


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/16/hunt-for-viking-dna-among-normandy-residents-riles-anti-racism-activists

Obviously the government has all the rights. The law clearly stipulates that DNA tests are allowed, even for individuals, upon court order. The government does not need this court authorisation.