PDA

View Full Version : New migration map of haplogroup R1a1a



Maciamo
21-07-13, 11:45
After my new R1b migration map (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#migration_map), here is an illustration of the R1a history. The pattern of migration completes that of R1b. You will find all the explanations in the R1a history section (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#history).

Just one new thing. The chiefly Germanic L664 subclade is the only subclade of R1a that migrated alongside the bulk of the Indo-European R1b population, first invading the Balkans, then going up the Danube, then establishing the Unetice culture in Bohemia, eastern Germany and western Poland. After that it seems that R1a-L664 went along the R1b-U106 branch to found the Proto-Germanic culture in the Netherlands, North Germany and Scandinavia. It was redistributed around Western Europe (esp. British Isles) by the Germanic migrations during the Iron Age.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a_migration_map.jpg (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#migration_map)
Click to enlarge.

Fire Haired
21-07-13, 14:03
this defintley makes sense the indo iranien r1a1a1b2 did not just go striaght from russia to india and iran it first went to Kazakhstan and Siberia then it went to India and iran. Like the tarium mummies they where 4,000 year old indo iraniens in western china near south Siberia with R1a1a probably R1a1a1b2. The Adronovo culture remains they where 3,800 year old Indo Iranians in south Sibera with R1a1a before the Indo Aryans ever went to India.

The Afanasevo, Adronovo, Sintashta where early Indo Iraniens a group probably from central asia or Siberia or even china went down into india and iran. The Sytheins, Cimmermans, Sarmatiens, Tocherians kept traditional Indo Iranian culture and still lived in central asia. the mtDNA, Y DNA, hair color, and eye color of Sytheins and later Indo Iranians perfectly matches 3,800 year old adrnovo people so i know that Sytheins where like 100% Indo Iranien in blood.

What about the I2a1b in Kurdish they are Indo Iranian and have something like 20% I2a1b that must mean there is a eastern european connection maybe because Indo Iraniens and Indo europeans spread from Russia and Ukriane. Maybe there are traces of I2a1b with R1a1a1b2 u know they would not have had 100% R1a1a1b2.

Do u think Balto Slavic languages might be most related to Indo iranien because Balto Slavic is R1a1a1b1 and Indo iranien is R1a1a1b2. I think there is no doubt now that Corded ware culture is proto Balto Slavic two Y DNA remains from them had R1a1a but two dident but u cant expect all to have R1a. Corded ware also existed in south Scandinavia which is probably why Scandinavia has R1a Z284 a brother group to the Slavic and Baltic. Maybe there was a related language to Slavic and Baltic in Scandnavia 4,000-5,000ybp.

But what about Greek, Thracen-Dacen, Aremnian and Illyrian speakers what y DNA did they have did they have any R1a and R1b what pre historic Indo european culture do they come from. The Indo Iranien, Bato Slavic, and Germanic Italo Celtic has basically been figured out but there is still more to learn.

Goga
21-07-13, 14:17
Thanks, but I don’t agree with your map. R1a must be originally from the same are as R1b, since they have common ancestors. R1b is from the Iranian Plateau, that means that the origin of R1a is not far from it!

The OLDEST subclades and the bigger variety of R1a is in West Asia!

http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2013/05/r1a-tree.html (http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2013/05/r1a-tree.html)

Goga
21-07-13, 14:28
Oldest known branch of R1a is M420 and it's 8000 years old.
http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2013/05/r1a-tree.html (http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2013/05/r1a-tree.html)

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/3136/ejsz.jpg
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/4776/byeurogenes.png

Goga
21-07-13, 14:44
What about the I2a1b in Kurdish they are Indo Iranian and have something like 20% I2a1b that must mean there is a eastern european connection maybe because Indo Iraniens and Indo europeans spread from Russia and Ukriane. Maybe there are traces of I2a1b with R1a1a1b2 u know they would not have had 100% R1a1a1b2.Kurds have many different very OLD branches of R1a, older than in Europe! But the majority belongs to Z283 or Z93. 1 type is from the steppes and came to Kurdistan together with I2, R1a-Z283. And other type is native to the Iranian Plateau, R1a-Z93!

Also Scythians were a mix of 2 different populations. Iranians from the Iranian Plateau and natives of Central Asians / the Steppes.

Maciamo
21-07-13, 14:56
Oldest known branch of R1a is M420 and it's 8000years old.

M420 is not 8000 years old, but more like 20,000 years old.

Note that my migration map starts only from M417.

Maciamo
21-07-13, 14:59
Kurds have many different very OLD branches of R1a, older than in Europe! But the majority belongs to Z283 or Z93. 1 type is from the steppes and came to Kurdistan together with I2, R1a-Z283. And other type is native to the Iranian Plateau, R1a-Z93!

Also Scythians were a mix of 2 different populations. Iranians from the Iranian Plateau and natives of Central Asians / the Steppes.

The problem is that you calculate the age based on STR variances, which is terribly unreliable as it doesn't take into account historical population sizes. Only SNP's can show the true migrations. Z93 and Z283 simply cannot be older than M417, L664 or S224.

Goga
21-07-13, 15:10
Somebody else calculated it, not me. Also, according to this scientific study there was no migration of R1a from Europe into Central Asia: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288)

"The prevailing Y-chromosome lineage in Pashtun and Tajik (R1a1a-M17), has the highest observed diversity among populations of the Indus Valley [46]. R1a1a-M17 diversity declines toward the Pontic-Caspian steppe where the mid-Holocene R1a1a7-M458 sublineage is dominant [46]. R1a1a7-M458 was absent in Afghanistan, suggesting that R1a1a-M17 does not support, as previously thought [47], expansions from the Pontic Steppe [3], bringing the Indo-European languages to Central Asia and India."

"Furthermore, BATWING results indicate that the Afghan populations split from Iranians, Indians and East Europeans at about 10.6 kya (95% CI7,100–15,825), which marks the start of the Neolithic revolution and the establishment of the farming communities."

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288

Fire Haired
21-07-13, 15:32
Kurds have many different very OLD branches of R1a, older than in Europe! But the majority belongs to Z283 or Z93. 1 type is from the steppes and came to Kurdistan together with I2, R1a-Z283. And other type is native to the Iranian Plateau, R1a-Z93!

Also Scythians were a mix of 2 different populations. Iranians from the Iranian Plateau and natives of Central Asians / the Steppes.
R1a Z93 is younger than branches in europe or the same age. It descends from proto indo Iranians who migrated to central Asia from Russia about 6,000ybp. R1a Z283 is from proto Balto Slavic speakers who migrated to mainland eastern Europe from Russia 6,000ybp. It probably came to Kurdistan from eastern Europe because cimermans migrated there from Ukraine 2,700ybp. u should look at the R1a tree before claiming they have older R1a branches than Europe then saying it originated around the Iranian platue (click here (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml) for tree)

The proto Indo European branch is R1a1a1b Europe has many older branches like R1a, R1a1a, R1a1a1 that asia does not or at least it is more popular in Europe. Not all R1a in Europe is from Indo Europeans mainly in western Europe. R1a probably originated in Europe while R1b in the middle east. The first Indo European culture was a mix of European hunter gathers with probably R1a1a1 and mid eastern farmers and bronze makers with probably R1b L23 and R1b M269.

The Indo European culture really took off in Russia and Ukriane about 6,000-7,000ybp. The Indo European language spread from Russia and Ukriane. Some spread from the north caucus mountians but it is hard to say which ones. The Kurds language and most R1a and some R1b come from Russia and Ukrainen Indo European cultures i guess the R1b orignalley came from around the caucus and Iraq but Russia was the destnation right before it came to Kurdistan. Most R1b in Kurds probably is from the mid east and has nothing to do with Indo Europeans like i said before 7,000ybp or so mid eastern R1b mixed with European R1a and it gave borth to Indo European culture but alot of R1b stayed in the mid east.

the Cimmeriams who where Indo Iranian indo Europeans round the black sea migrated and conquered areas that perfectly match where Kurds live today. This could explain why Kurds have 20% I2a1b which is Paloithic eastern European and is over 30% in areas Cimmermans migrated to the middle east from.

Also early Indo iranien remains in central asia had mainly light brown/blonde hair and light eyes that is why some Kurds look that today which means there was a migration of Cimmerman European looking people into Kurdistan thousends of years ago. Kurds language and everything indo european about them came from Ukriane and Russia some parts possibly the lnaguage orignalley came from the caucus. The indo european language did not start around iraq or Iran if that is what u are trying to say.

Taranis
21-07-13, 15:41
Goga, with your idea for an Asian origin, I would really like to know how you do interprete the distribution of L664 (the northwestern European subclade) and the fact that it sits quite close to the "root" of the R1a "tree" (it sits outside of the respective major European and Asian branches). If R1a was originally wholly in Asia, how did L664 wind up there?

Goga
21-07-13, 15:50
Dude. Cimmerians were not Indo-Iranian at all. Indo-Iranians didn’t existed anymore during the times of the Cimmerians, the Medes and Persians. Indo-Iranians existed thousands of years before the so called Cimmerians. Some say that Cimmerians were Iranic speakers, influenced by Iranic nomad tribes from the east. That means that genetically Cimmerians were not Iranic at all.

Indo-European culture is from the West-Asia. Maykop folks Indo-Europized tribes in the Yamna horizon.

R1* is not from Europe! R1b was born from R1* somewhere around the Iranian Plateau. R1a was also born from R1* not far where R1b was born.


Light hair and light eyes can be native to Caucasus, to a West Asian component. Nations in the Caucasus are not Indo-European at all, but they’re very light! Light traits are just native to West Asian component like they’re native to West European component!


Also, Iraq (Babylon) is NOT Iranian Plateau, but South Mesopotamia!


Also, Kurds are the Iranic Medes. The Medes were much more powerful that the Cimmerians and Scytho-Sarmatians COMBINED! The Medes DESTROYED the Scythian kings in Kurdistan!

Fire Haired
21-07-13, 15:54
Somebody else calculated it, not me. Also, according to this scientific study there was no migration of R1a from Europe into Central Asia: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288)

"The prevailing Y-chromosome lineage in Pashtun and Tajik (R1a1a-M17), has the highest observed diversity among populations of the Indus Valley [46]. R1a1a-M17 diversity declines toward the Pontic-Caspian steppe where the mid-Holocene R1a1a7-M458 sublineage is dominant [46]. R1a1a7-M458 was absent in Afghanistan, suggesting that R1a1a-M17 does not support, as previously thought [47], expansions from the Pontic Steppe [3], bringing the Indo-European languages to Central Asia and India."

"Furthermore, BATWING results indicate that the Afghan populations split from Iranians, Indians and East Europeans at about 10.6 kya (95% CI7,100–15,825), which marks the start of the Neolithic revolution and the establishment of the farming communities."

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288

The oldest branches of R1a from what i have read are mainly found in Europe. Also Indo European culture took of in russia and Ukriane then spread to central asia. So it would make sense R1a spread with them. We have DNA from very early 4,000 and 3,800 year old Indo iranien cultures in south siberia and west china all had Y DNA R1a1a except one had Siberian C. They also had mainly light hair and eyes which means they came from Europe and their austomnal DNA was most related to northeast Europeans.

So we know R1a migrated to central asia from Russia. Indo European culture and language may have actulley started around the caucus with R1b mid eastern people, But r1a in central asia with out a doubt is Indo European and comes from russian (i dont mean modern slavic russians) migrations. Archaeology ancient DNA, modern DNA everything points to a Indo European migration from Russia that brought R1a to central asia.

Most R1a subclades in asia decend from proto Indo European R1a1a1b which is still found in Russia. Also Balto Slavic and Scandinavian r1a also descends from it and it migrated exactley when a culture in Russia spread into eastern Europe, Scandinavia, and central asia so we know for a fact it migrated from Russia there is no arguing it. we have Y DNA from both these cultures in europe and asia and they had R1a1a so like i said there is no doubt R1a spread to central asia from Russia with indo european language.

The whole diversty thing is because Indo Iraniens from i think Iran migrated and conquered the Indus valley civilization in the iNdus valley and they made themselves the leaders and high ranking in the caste system. India had already had a civlization and a hug population unlike Europe which had tribal society and a much smaller population. So the diversty is going to be higher in india just because they have had more people not because it originated there. the older subclades are in Europe and the indo european subclade migrated to India orignalley from Russia there is no arguing that u cant just look at diversty.

Goga
21-07-13, 15:59
'Evidence for the world’s earliest beer and wine making in Kurdistan
The disturbing, but not very surprising element in their report was to attribute the development of beer making technology to the far-off Sumerians. Several years earlier, the earliest known evidence for the grape wine making technology found at Godin had also been duly contributed to the Sumerians.'
http://www.kurdistanica.com/?q=node/199

'Viticulture was believed to have been introduced to India by Persian traders sometime in the 4th millennium BC. Historians believe that these early plantings were used mostly for table grapes or grape juice rather than the production of an alcoholic beverage. During the Vedic period of the 2nd and 1st millennia, the Aryan tribes of the region were known for their indulgence in intoxicating drink and it seems probable that wine was a current beverage.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_wine

Goga
21-07-13, 16:00
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/9219/c36l.jpg http://books.google.nl/books?id=ujn2fPCwaUAC&pg=PA178&lpg=PA178&dq=sumerian+farmers+harappa&source=bl&ots=i1bpNNAy98&sig=hayTmYud33uwJ74NDLfiDfsZXS8&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=QIzmUdfRKYXXPN3bgcAB&ved=0CEYQ6AEwAzgU#v=onepage&q=sumerian%20farmers%20harappa&f=false

Goga
21-07-13, 16:07
Sumerian GOLDEN Bull

http://www.atlastours.net/iraq/golden_harp.jpg

http://www.zwoje-scrolls.com/zwoje35/sh10.jpg


Maykop GOLDEN Bull

http://culturedallroundman.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/r3_2_2d_eneolith_bull.jpg

Fire Haired
21-07-13, 16:12
Dude. Cimmerians were not Indo-Iranian at all. Indo-Iranians didn’t existed anymore during the times of the Cimmerians, the Medes and Persians. Indo-Iranians existed thousands of years before the so called Cimmerians. Some say that Cimmerians were Iranic speakers, influenced by Iranic nomad tribes from the east. That means that genetically Cimmerians were not Iranic at all.

Indo-European culture is from the West-Asia. Maykop folks Indo-Europized tribes in the Yamna horizon.

R1* is not from Europe! R1b was born from R1* somewhere around the Iranian Plateau. R1a was also born from R1* not far where R1b was born.


Light hair and light eyes can be native to Caucasus, to a West Asian component. Nations in the Caucasus are not Indo-European at all, but they’re very light! Light traits are just native to West Asian component like they’re native to West European component!


Also, Iraq (Babylon) is NOT Iranian Plateau, but South Mesopotamia!


Also, Kurds are the Iranic Medes. The Medes were much morepowerful that the Cimmerians and Scytho-Sarmatians COMBINED! The Medes DESTROYED the Scythian kings in Kurdistan!

Indo Irainen culture is from Afanasevo, Adrnovo, Sinshta cultures not Maykop which existes as far ack as 6,000 years ago about thousand years before Indo iranien language began. The first Indo European cultre may have come from the caucus and those cacus people like Maykop may have had mix of a culture from the mid east and Russia and Ukraine.

All we know for sure is Indo European culture and language began around the Caucus, Russia, and Ukraine 6,000-8,000ybp. The Indo Iranians original ancestors came from a Russian culture named Yamna. You may be right i kind of think the same and there is alot of evidence for what u are saying about Maykop Indo Europeaiszing the Russians in Yamna horizon.

R1* is from 25,000-30,000ybp way way way way before Indo Europeans. Alot happens in 20,000 years also R1* is Mongoloid. Europeans and mid easterns are Caucasian. R1* orignally came from Siberian and native Americans ancestors so 50% of Europeans including myself trace their paternal line back to a native american looking person in asia 25,000- 30,000ybp. There are still some Native Americans and Siberians with the original form R1*

I guess there is DNA evidence R1* originated around the Iranian platue (it was still mongliods who where the first) it was so long ago it is much harder to say that than to say Indo European R1a1a1b orignated in Russia. Somhow Mongoloid inter married with caucasins then r1a started probably in Europe 18,000ybp and R1b started probably in the mid east 18,000ybp. That is still way way way before Indo Europeans.

So it is hard to figure out the history of R1a and R1b from 18,000-6,000ybp.

Goga
21-07-13, 16:19
Goga, with your idea for an Asian origin, I would really like to know how you do interprete the distribution of L664 (the northwestern European subclade) and the fact that it sits quite close to the "root" of the R1a "tree" (it sits outside of the respective major European and Asian branches). If R1a was originally wholly in Asia, how did L664 wind up there?As far as I know L664 is NOT the ancestor of European Z83 and Asian Z93. L664 is very old subclade in Europe and can be arrived in Europe in the much earlier waves of tribes from West Asia, like with the Neolithic farmers

Fire Haired
21-07-13, 16:21
Dude. Cimmerians were not Indo-Iranian at all. Indo-Iranians didn’t existed anymore during the times of the Cimmerians, the Medes and Persians. Indo-Iranians existed thousands of years before the so called Cimmerians. Some say that Cimmerians were Iranic speakers, influenced by Iranic nomad tribes from the east. That means that genetically Cimmerians were not Iranic at all.

Indo-European culture is from the West-Asia. Maykop folks Indo-Europized tribes in the Yamna horizon.

R1* is not from Europe! R1b was born from R1* somewhere around the Iranian Plateau. R1a was also born from R1* not far where R1b was born.


Light hair and light eyes can be native to Caucasus, to a West Asian component. Nations in the Caucasus are not Indo-European at all, but they’re very light! Light traits are just native to West Asian component like they’re native to West European component!


Also, Iraq (Babylon) is NOT Iranian Plateau, but South Mesopotamia!


Also, Kurds are the Iranic Medes. The Medes were much more powerful that the Cimmerians and Scytho-Sarmatians COMBINED! The Medes DESTROYED the Scythian kings in Kurdistan!

we dot know the origin of blonde hair and light eyes my guess is Paloithic Europe somehwere from 20,000-50,000ybp. But it may have orignated in the mid east 50,00ybp all we know for sure is it is either European or became way way way way way way way more popular in Europeans ancestors than mid easterns. Also the austomnal DNA (http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal_DNA) from 4,000 and 3,800 year old Indo iranien remains prove they where European and that their closest modern relatives are north east Europeans live Latviens who have 60% blonde hair.

People in the caucus are not very light sure about 1-10% have blonde hair and it is true they have almost no European blood but actulley the ones with blonde hair have a pretty good amount of european admixture in austomnal DNA i can show u specifics in another post if u would like. Also the austomnal DNA from Indo iranien remains and the fact they had majority blonde hair all points to a european origin no way do they come form the caucus possibly genetically they orignally came from north western russia 8,000ybp. Their culture spread from Russian yamna culture not Maykop.

Also Kurds do have 20% Paloithic eastern European i2a1b which only exists in eastern Europe. Also the Cimmermans who did conquer areas that match modern kurds terriotory

look at areas of the Urartu a people cimmermans helped Assyrians conquer in 714bc it matches modern Kurds and I2a1b and R1a in the mid east there might be a connection.
http://www.britam.org/picturesYair/urartu1.jpg

distributions of modern kurds
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTCP4wrtTCFgrLmICnKBUejTF_7RbJsG ZN9mmKnEU5VM5-0ohsy1g

also look at distrubutation of R1a and I2a1 formally I2a in the mid east it matches both maps.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a.gif
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

Goga
21-07-13, 16:26
Indo Irainen culture is from Afanasevo, Adrnovo, Sinshta cultures not Maykop which existes as far ack as 6,000 years ago about thousand years before Indo iranien language began. The first Indo European cultre may have come from the caucus and those cacus people like Maykop may have had mix of a culture from the mid east and Russia and Ukraine.WRONG! Afanasevo was Tocharian and NOT Iranian. Tocharian were different from Iranians. Also Afanasevo etc. was influenced by culture from YAMNA. And Yamna was influenced by Maykop!

Fire Haired
21-07-13, 16:31
As far as I know L664 is NOT the ancestor of European Z83 and Asian Z93. L664 is very old subclade in Europe and can be arrived in Europe in the much earlier waves of tribes from West Asia, like with the Neolithic farmers

well it seems experts who look at SNP's say L664 is the ancestor of European Z83 and asia Z93. also we have 6 Y DNA samples from 6,000 abnd 5,000 year old Indo Europeans in Russia i will not be surprised if they test it for L664 it will have it.

If it originated in west asia why is it more popular in Europe. U keep pushing for a west Asian origin of R1a when so far there is no strong evidence at all everything points to a European origin and a Russian origin of all Indo European R1a which makes sense because Indo iraniens and Balto Slavs came from a Russian culture aka Yamana 5,000-6,000ybp.

Just saying there are 31 y DNA samples of farmers in western Europe dating from 7,000-4,725ybp 26 had G2a, 4 had I23a1a, and one had E1b1b V13. LAter Indo European culture Corded ware remains from 4,600ybp had R1a1a and Bell Beaker in Germany which was conquered by Germanic Italo Celts its 4,600 year old remains had R1b. also early Indo Iranien remains in asia had R1a1a. So there is no doubt in the world ancient DNA totally agrees with out people are saying about Indo European migrations and Indo European cultures.

Goga
21-07-13, 16:33
People in the caucus are not very light sure about 1-10% have blonde hair and it is true they have almost no European blood but actulley the ones with blonde hair have a pretty good amount of european admixture in austomnal DNA i can show u specifics in another post if u would like. Also the austomnal DNA from Indo iranien remains and the fact they had majority blonde hair all points to a european origin no way do they come form the caucus possibly genetically they orignally came from north western russia 8,000ybp. Their culture spread from Russian yamna culture not Maykop.So what? There was some BACKmigration of tribes from Northern Caucasus /Yamna Horizon into Kurdistan. Those folks brought European ‘R1a-Z283’, ‘I2’ and maybe ‘E’ to Kurdistan. I’m not denying this migration wave!

But the fact is that there is NO I2a, R1a-Z283 and E in Central Asia.


You’re wrong again. Most NATIVES of Caucasian Mountains have fair feature. And they’re predominantly West Asian. So there is a correlation between fair features and a West Asian aDNA-component!

Fire Haired
21-07-13, 16:33
Sumerian GOLDEN Bull

http://www.atlastours.net/iraq/golden_harp.jpg

http://www.zwoje-scrolls.com/zwoje35/sh10.jpg


Maykop GOLDEN Bull

http://culturedallroundman.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/r3_2_2d_eneolith_bull.jpg

yes maykop had mid eastern connections and indo european language may have spread from caucus to russia. But how do u know if Maykop did not get their indo european parts like a kurgen burail from Ukriane and Russians who they traded with alot. Indo European culture boomed in Russia and Ukriaine 6,000-8,000ybp. almost all Indo European languages spread from russia and Ukriane.

Goga
21-07-13, 16:34
well it seems experts who look at SNP's say L664 is the ancestor of European Z83 and asia Z93. also we have 6 Y DNA samples from 6,000 abnd 5,000 year old Indo Europeans in Russia i will not be surprised if they test it for L664 it will have it.No! http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a-tree.gif http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

Fire Haired
21-07-13, 16:36
i meant to say S224 is the ancestor of asian Z93 and European Z283

Goga
21-07-13, 16:39
i meant to say S224 is the ancestor of asian Z93 and European Z283But there's no EVIDENCE for it, that S224 is from Europe at all! Taranis meant L664...

Fire Haired
21-07-13, 16:41
So what? There was some BACKmigration of tribes from Northern Caucasus /Yamna Horizon into Kurdistan. Those folks brought European ‘R1a-Z283’, ‘I2’ and maybe ‘E’ to Kurdistan. I’m not denying this migration wave!

But the fact is that there is NO I2a, R1a-Z283 and E in Central Asia.


You’re wrong again. Most NATIVES of Caucasian Mountains have fair feature. And they’re predominantly West Asian. So there is a correlation between fair features and a West Asian aDNA-component!

here is a map of light hair in europe and light eyes remeber that idno iranien remains in central asia had 60% light hair and 70% light eyes look how low the caucus area is.
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRGpd3_jDUTa2XKLwFLdtGRRIg9Ro5t3 vYShYGOCapMpw44nLUr6Ahttps://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRbC2vq0GGJjBXnuXkAfCpWXHeSqUkzF C3yq1Ew0C3K5I3lXujp

I never said Cimmeranis migrated from central asia. first about 5,000ybp indo iraniens migrated from russia then about 3,000ybp migrated back to russia and Ukraine. Cimmermans came from Ukriane that is why i think kurds have such high amount of Paleolithic eastern european I2a1b. i dont think the medes are a possible source of I2a1b in kurds.

Goga
21-07-13, 16:42
yes maykop had mid eastern connections and indo european language may have spread from caucus to russia. But how do u know if Maykop did not get their indo european parts like a kurgen burail from Ukriane and Russians who they traded with alot. Indo European culture boomed in Russia and Ukriaine 6,000-8,000ybp. almost all Indo European languages spread from russia and Ukriane.Once again, Maykop AND Yamna are much older that these cultures in Easter Europe. Also, according to me PROTO-IEans that migrated into the Caucasus (Maykop Horizon) were the same folks that migrated into the Central Asia/Indus Valley!

kamani
21-07-13, 16:49
also R1* is Mongoloid.

that is quite a conclusion, but at 25000 years ago, he definitely was very dark and probably had few mongoloid features, which makes him look more like an Indian from India today. Note that when Colombus met Native Americans, he thought he reached India.

Taken from Wikipedia:
North or south of 46 degrees latitude – e.g. in Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada), Mongolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolia), Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia), Scandinavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia), and Western Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe) – dark-skinned people could not produce enough vitamin D (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D), and humans settlement only occurred after the development of light skin pigmentation[61] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_skin#cite_note-61) Polar regions of the Northern Hemisphere receive little UV radiation and even less vitamin B producing UVB for most of the year. These regions were uninhabited by humans until about 12 000 years ago.

Goga
21-07-13, 16:50
here is a map of light hair in europe and light eyes remeber that idno iranien remains in central asia had 60% light hair and 70% light eyes look how low the caucus area is.
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRGpd3_jDUTa2XKLwFLdtGRRIg9Ro5t3 vYShYGOCapMpw44nLUr6Ahttps://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRbC2vq0GGJjBXnuXkAfCpWXHeSqUkzF C3yq1Ew0C3K5I3lXujp

I never said Cimmeranis migrated from central asia. first about 5,000ybp indo iraniens migrated from russia then about 3,000ybp migrated back to russia and Ukraine. Cimmermans came from Ukriane that is why i think kurds have such high amount of Paleolithic eastern european I2a1b. i dont think the medes are a possible source of I2a1b in kurds.I'm not denying that I2a is from the Cimmerians. But I'm just saying that Cimmerians were not really Iranic people. Also, who's saying that the mummies in Central Asia are (proto-)Indo-Iranian? And about which mummies are you actually talking about? If you mean those Scythian mummies, Scythians were NOT Indo-Iranian at all. Indo-Iranians lived thousands of years before the Scythians. Scythians were actually (modern) Iranic tribes HEAVELY mixed with the NATIVE Steppes peoples!

Fire Haired
21-07-13, 16:52
Once again, Maykop AND Yamna are much older that these cultures in Easter Europe.

I said that Yamna gave birth to Indo Iranien cultures Adrnovo, Afanasevo, and Sinishta which eventulley spread into india. Alo that proto Balto Slavic culture Corded ware also came from Yamna.


Also, according to me PROTO-IEans that migrated into the Caucasus (Maykop Horizon) were the same folks that migrated into the Central Asia/Indus Valley!

There is absoultly no evidence of that. Just because Indus valley seems mid eastern does not mean the indo iranien part of them is orignalley mid eastern plus i doubt they had much to do with mid eastern cultures. Like Hindus in india today are very diff from muslims but muslim culture has litte to do with sumerians so i dont know. There is no evidence of the indo iranien language migrating from the caucus how do u explain the sytheins. Indo Iraniens come from Afanasevo, Adronovo, and Sinshta cultures. just look at what wikpedia page on Indo iraniens says it says nothing of the caucus mountains http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranians.

Goga
21-07-13, 16:53
Proto-Indo-Europeans that mograted into the Maykop Horizon and Central Asia / Indus Valley belonged mostly to J2a (& G2a) folks !

Goga
21-07-13, 17:00
I said that Yamna gave birth to Indo Iranien cultures Adrnovo, Afanasevo, and Sinishta which eventulley spread into india. Alo that proto Balto Slavic culture Corded ware also came from Yamna.Maybe and maybe NOT. You don't have evidences about this either!
Once again, Afanasevo is NOT Indo-IRANIAN, but Tocharian ! There’re many indications that Tocharians (R1a-Z93) came actually from West Asia. I'm not sure about other cultures.

Wikipedia is not reliable. Wikipedia page on Indo-Iranians is written by a bunch of amateurs!

There's some of hg. J2a in Central Asia and the Indus Valley. According to me those folks from West Asia brought Indo-European language to Central Asia (the same folks that brought Indo-European language into the Maykop Horizon)..

Fire Haired
21-07-13, 17:06
I'm not denying that I2a is from the Cimmerians.

So the I2a Kurdish conversation is done we agree on where it came from.


But I'm just saying that Cimmerians were not really Iranic people.

true but they defintley could have been. They lived right next to the iNdo Iranien sythiens and had similar culture and where described as light haired like sythiens and tocherians and early indo Iranian remains and not like modern people in that area.


Also, who's saying that the mummies in Central Asia are (proto-)Indo-Iranian? And about which mummies are you actually talking about?

The Andronovo, Afanasvo, and sintashta cultures where very very early Indo Iraniens. the Tarium mummies some are 4,000 years old they where a mix of European and east asian the european came from the first Indo iranien speakers because they came from russia. 4,000 years ago is before Indo Iranians ever came to India so why where they in west china before india if they migrated from the caucus through iran.


If you mean those Scythian mummies, Scythians were NOT Indo-Iranian at all. Indo-Iranians lived thousands of years before the Scythians. Scythians were actually (modern) Iranic tribes HEAVELY mixed with the NATIVE Steppes peoples!

Sytheins where Indo iranien this has been known from historian since like the 1800's. We know this because of some writting we have of their language., Their culture decends from Indo iranien cultures that existed in asia 2,000 years before them. Also we have Y DNA, mtDNA, hair color, and eye color from tagar sytheins and indo iraniens from 4,000 and 3,800ybp all of those actgories where a match so we pretty much know for a fact sytheins where indo iranien.

I dont now what u mean by modern Iranic tribes if u mean iran sytheins where nothing like modern iraniens. Phiscalley they where white and had mainly blonde hair and light eyes and where also known for red hair. There is no doubt in the world that they originally genetically came from Europe. They stayed did not inetr marry a whole lot with other people because DNA from Adrnovo culture from 3,800ybp had nearly identical Y DNA, mtDNA, hair color, and eye color to less than 2,000 year old Sythein remains so for about 2,000 years they almost did not inter marry at all.

But the ones in chian and siberia inter married a ton that is why tarium mummies had mtDNA C4 and alot of black hair(almost no European, mid easterns, and north africans have true black hair). Also why R1a still exists at over 40% in south siberia today. Also sytheins and other Indo Iranians where almost completely killed off by migrating Turkic trbes from eastern asia about 2,000-2,500ybp.

Fire Haired
21-07-13, 17:11
Maybe and maybe NOT. You don't have evidences about this either!
Once again, Afanasevo is NOT Indo-IRANIAN, but Tocharian ! There’re many indications that Tocharians (R1a-Z93) came actually from West Asia. I'm not sure about other cultures.

Wikipedia is not reliable. Wikipedia page on Indo-Iranians is written by a bunch of amateurs!

There's some of hg. J2a in Central Asia and the Indus Valley. According to me those folks from West Asia brought Indo-European language to Central Asia (the same folks that brought Indo-European language into the Maykop Horizon)..

why are u so stubborn about this. Experts have believed what i just said since th 1950's people who study the culture for a living. Now we have DNA from those cultures and they had R1a1a not a suprise. Also R1a Z93 is NOT I REPEAT NOT FROM WEST ASIA THE ONLY EVIDENCE IS POPULATION DIVERSTY WHICH IS NOT THE BEST WAY TO FIND WHERE A HAPLOGROUP ORIGNATED because if a population in west Asia or india is bigger than in europe then it will have more diversty even though it is younger.

the tocherians where Indo iranien we have ancient writting from Tocherians. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE WEST ASIA SPREAD INDO EUROPEAN LANGUAGES AT ALL. it was probably a mainly west asian group of indo iraniens who brought it to india but they got the indo iranien lnaguage from people from central asia who got it from russia.

How do u explain the sytheins they had nothing to do with west asia yet they where indo iranien and had nearly identical y dna, mtdna, hair color, and eye color to adrnovo remains.

Fire Haired
21-07-13, 17:13
Proto-Indo-Europeans that mograted into the Maykop Horizon and Central Asia / Indus Valley belonged mostly to J2a (& G2a) folks !

where is the J2a and G2a in central asia and areas indo iranien sytheins and tocherians lived.

Goga
21-07-13, 17:15
Scythians were NOT INDO-Iranian, dude. Iranians evolved from INDO-Iranian, like Indo-Aryans evolved from Indo-Iranians.

What I mean is that Scythians were NOT PROTO-Iranians at all. They were just simply Iranians mixed with the native population in the Steppes.

Tarim Basin Mummies DNA is actually closer to the Greeks than to the Eastern Europeans. And I'm actually sure that those mummies belonged to Asian R1a-Z93 and not to European R1a-Z283! http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/11/u7-in-rostov-scythians.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/11/u7-in-rostov-scythians.html)


Also modern Iranian populations are DIRECT descendatns of Ancient Iranic nations, like Sogdians, Parthians, Persians and the Medes.
Eastern Europeans have nothing to do with the Sogdians, Parthians, Persians and the Medes, period!

Goga
21-07-13, 17:20
where is the J2a and G2a in central asia and areas indo iranien sytheins and tocherians lived.There's LOTS of J2a in Central Asia & Indus Valley!
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TRDzeciDNRI/AAAAAAAADE8/DOUK_yoPIJ8/s1600/journal.pone.0015283.g003.png http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2010/12/y-chromosomes-and-mtdna-from.html

Fire Haired
21-07-13, 17:25
Of course they belonged to asia R1a Z93 because it was Indo Iraniens like them who brought it to asia. Indo Iranien IS A LANGUAGE it was named INdo Iranien by people in the 1800's because iraniens and Indians spoke it. The reason Indo European lanuages are called that is English figured out Indians spoke a related language to the ones in Europe and thought it was just Europe and India get it Indo European.

Sythiens spoke a Indo iranien language dont get it confused that u have to be Iranien or Indian to speak that type of language. Medes, Persians, Sogdians etc where later Indo iraniens they get their language from the same source as sytheins in CENTRAL ASIA AND SIBERIA NOT NOT WEST ASIA. I never said eastern Europeans had anything to do with those west asian speaking indo iraniens.

but pre historic russians have alot to do with them. Pre historic russians spoke the ancestral language of Indo iranien ten spread to central asia 5,000ybp. Many things happened and eventulley the language spread to around iran. This can also explain why Indo iraniens peaking people in the middle east and india have much higher amounts of european aust. DNA than Afro Asiatic speaking people in the mid east and north africa like arabs, egyptiens, or sarmartiens(decended from ancient Jews).

Fire Haired
21-07-13, 17:26
There's LOTS of J2a in Central Asia & Indus Valley!
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TRDzeciDNRI/AAAAAAAADE8/DOUK_yoPIJ8/s1600/journal.pone.0015283.g003.png http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2010/12/y-chromosomes-and-mtdna-from.html

i undertsand but not all indo iraniens had J2a. There is no connection with Y DNA J and the spread of Indo european languages in Europe and asia. the Indo Iranien marker is R1a1a1b2 later they inter married with J2a people and then may have spread it in later migrations in india.

Goga
21-07-13, 17:30
i undertsand but not all indo iraniens had J2a. There is no connection with Y DNA J and the spread of Indo european languages in Europe and asia. the Indo Iranien marker is R1a1a1b2 later they inter married with J2a people and then may have spread it in later migrations in india.No, true J2a Iranians (Aryans) intermarried in Central Asia with Central Asian R1a-Z93. True Aryans were actually Bactrians, Sogdians, Parthians, Persians and the Medes. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6gr3SLk1V8M/T5lOWmAJtSI/AAAAAAAAUVc/mJNvOT2bDDs/s1600/Plate-3a.jpghttp://lukferi.webs.com/ariana%20map.jpg

Fire Haired
21-07-13, 17:41
No, J2a Aryans intermaaried with Central Asian R1a-Z93 in Central Asia. True Aryans were actually Bactrians, Sogdians, Parthians, Persians and the Medes. http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/images/maps/eratosthenes.jpg

From what i know only Indo Iraniens in Iran and india called themselves Aryans so a good word to repsent all Indo iraniens including Sytheins is Indo Iranien. Where is the evidence Indo Iranien culture spread from iraq and Turkey. Once again how do u explain the sytheins who where as white as u can get they defintley where not a mix of central asia and west asian there was a european origin.

Here is basicalley how Indo Iranien languages spread. proto Indo Iranien was spoken in central and northern russia 6,000-5,000ybp. It spread east of the Caspien sea about 5,000-4,000ybp and kept spreading in central asia.

One branch migrated from central asia towards the area of iran about 4,000-4,500ybp and seem's to have traded and mixed alot with mid eastern civlizations around Iraq and Iran. They kept mainly Indo Iranien R1a1a1b1, Indo Iranien religion, and many Indo Iranian traditions like the war chariot. They probably lost most of their orignal Indo iranien blood. They conquered Iran then spread to India 3,500-4,000ybp and conquered the Indus valley civlization making themselves the upper caste and the leaders and changed the religion. They are the ones who wrote the Rig Veda which is a 3,500 year old Indo Aryan book, Oh yeah i forgot to mention it was the Indo iraniens who became civlized and mixed with mid easterns who called themselves aryans but i dont know sytheins may have also had a name like that too.

The other branch spread from central Asia to south siberia and west china 4,000-5,000ybp and some stayed in central asia. They mixed alot with the east asians which is why the 4,000 year old tarium mummies where a mix of east asian and European. Some where heavily influenced by Chinese civilization and left many of their tradition like Tocherians. But it seems they kept most of the orignal Indo Iranian blood and cultrally groups like Sytheins kept the original Indo Iranian culture. Sytheins and other Indo Iranians then migrated west into far eastern Europe and around the black sea.

Goga
21-07-13, 17:56
Arya Varta / Airyana Vaeja = URHEIMAT (original homeland) of Aryan race was a very MOUTNAINOUS Area, with high mountains. Russia/ Eastern Europe is not mountainous at all. Iranian Plateasu (Zagros and Elbourz) are very high!

https://www.elitenetzwerk.bayern.de/uploads/tx_templavoila/Text-Bild400x350.jpg


No, Iranian religions are from the (J2a & R1a) Sumerians. The Sumerians were the first known SUN worshippers!

http://genealogyreligion.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Supernatural-Zoroastrianism-Faravahar.jpg


Sumerian SUN god UTU

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/778/mcso.jpg

Goga
21-07-13, 18:00
Sumerian Samarra bowl, 7000 years old !http://starinthestone.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/sumer-samarra_bowl-swastika-cranes-fish.jpg?w=295&h=300

Fire Haired
21-07-13, 18:07
Arya Varta / Airyana Vaeja = URHEIMAT (originalhomeland) of Aryan race was a very MOUTNAINOUS Area, with high mountains. Russia/ Eastern Europe is not mountainous at all. Iranian Plateasu (Zagros andElbourz) are very high!

https://www.elitenetzwerk.bayern.de/uploads/tx_templavoila/Text-Bild400x350.jpg


No Iranian religion is from the Sumerians. The Sumerianswere the first known SUN worshippers



http://genealogyreligion.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Supernatural-Zoroastrianism-Faravahar.jpg


Sumerian SUN god UTU

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/778/mcso.jpg


sure the art and other things of indo iraniens in iran and i guess india too looked similar to mid eastern people. but the indo iranien religious bevies and Gods not art is in the same family as what Indo European people in Europe like Germans and Greeks had. Click here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion) it explains the Indo European relgion. I am pretty sure ancient Persians did not have a Indo European religion they kept the native iranien religion.

I think u are confused by words European historians in the 1800's created the idea the Aryan race. They saw that Indians had a similar language as Europeans and religion to ancient Europeans so they concluded a group of Europeans migrated to india. also since some Indo iranien ethnic groups like Pahsuten and Kalash where known for blonde hair and blue eyes. Germans connected that with them. So they thought a group of Germans or nordics went to India and where the Aryans then gave Aryan as the name for all europeans or ones known for blonde hair it was pretty much just Germans who did that. Then hitler who was a raciest towards jews and some other people i think also Slavic speakers mixed up alot of thing sin history. And somehow thought the Germans where the real Aryans and he made Germans angre at europe for punishing them after world war 1 and made them aryan proud even though they had no idea what it meant then that started world war 2.

All i know is Aryan is what the Indo Iranian speakers that spread to Iran and India from central asia and orignally russia called themselves i dont know if the original Indo Iranian speakers where called aryans. So sure Aryans came from iran that does not prove the origin of the Indo Iranian language is Iran.

Fire Haired
21-07-13, 18:14
Sumerian Samarra bowl, 8000 years old !http://starinthestone.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/sumer-samarra_bowl-swastika-cranes-fish.jpg?w=295&h=300

that really shocking i am suprised they had a swastika because that was a Aryan symbol. But there have been 12,000 year old swatikas found in austira and Russia so i dont think one symbol is strong evidence. The swastika has been used by even native Americans and chinese so it does not mean for a fact someone is indo Iranian if they have a swastika it is a symbol that can be recreated.

Also i think other indo Europeans used swastika in the same way as Aryans in iran and india did. I dont know how much they used the swastika anyways i think the swastika has been overrated because of the nazi's. I think u make some good points the indo iranien migration is probably not very smple maybe they did migrate through russia then iraq and then eventuley india but i really doubt it.

The 8,000 year old swatiska if it really is 8,000 years old may mean this type of swatiska spread from sumeria-maykop-stepppes and that is why many indo europeans used it. I think proto Indo European culture and language deifntley had influnces by Maykop which had mid eastern parts to it. The language was spread by central Russians and Ukrainians not Maykop people though.

Goga
21-07-13, 18:19
Huh??? Have you read the article. That article does actually mention a modern Iranic language Avesta (proto-Kurdish), Mithra (SUN) etc. The SUN and FIRE have a very important part in real Indo-European religions.

Zoroastrianism, dualism, daevas, Avesta language do all belong to Indo European religions. I know everything about Iranic religions. I'm an Yezidi Kurd. My religion, the Yezidism, is actually Iranic (Indo-European).

The SUN deity Mithra has Indo-Iranian roots. Mithra was a SUN deity of the Medes/Persians, Mitra is also the SUN deity according to the Vedic traditions.


Swastika represents the SUN! And the Sumerians were the FIRST known people that worshipped the SUN! Sumerian SUN god UTU (8000 years old) : http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/778/mcso.jpg

MOESAN
21-07-13, 18:25
So the I2a Kurdish conversation is done we agree on where it came from.



true but they defintley could have been. They lived right next to the iNdo Iranien sythiens and had similar culture and where described as light haired like sythiens and tocherians and early indo Iranian remains and not like modern people in that area.



The Andronovo, Afanasvo, and sintashta cultures where very very early Indo Iraniens. the Tarium mummies some are 4,000 years old they where a mix of European and east asian the european came from the first Indo iranien speakers because they came from russia. 4,000 years ago is before Indo Iranians ever came to India so why where they in west china before india if they migrated from the caucus through iran.



Sytheins where Indo iranien this has been known from historian since like the 1800's. We know this because of some writting we have of their language., Their culture decends from Indo iranien cultures that existed in asia 2,000 years before them. Also we have Y DNA, mtDNA, hair color, and eye color from tagar sytheins and indo iraniens from 4,000 and 3,800ybp all of those actgories where a match so we pretty much know for a fact sytheins where indo iranien.

I dont now what u mean by modern Iranic tribes if u mean iran sytheins where nothing like modern iraniens. Phiscalley they where white and had mainly blonde hair and light eyes and where also known for red hair. There is no doubt in the world that they originally genetically came from Europe. They stayed did not inetr marry a whole lot with other people because DNA from Adrnovo culture from 3,800ybp had nearly identical Y DNA, mtDNA, hair color, and eye color to less than 2,000 year old Sythein remains so for about 2,000 years they almost did not inter marry at all.

But the ones in chian and siberia inter married a ton that is why tarium mummies had mtDNA C4 and alot of black hair(almost no European, mid easterns, and north africans have true black hair). Also why R1a still exists at over 40% in south siberia today. Also sytheins and other Indo Iranians where almost completely killed off by migrating Turkic trbes from eastern asia about 2,000-2,500ybp.

as a whole Iranians of Today are "white" people, not only 'caucasian' but 'white' for skin (the darker hues of white skin, it is true): always the same mistake with anglo-saxon people - look at their tin skin, not at their exposed parts! only a light influence of 'south-asian' ( from Pakistan-Indies) influence some darker skins, according to places, bit it remains a minority -
IT WAS JUST AN ANTHROPOLOGIC PRECISION

I do not believe all Scythians or old Iranians of Steppes were light pigmented (even the "pure europoids" without mongolid genes) but surely they were very lighter (mean) than today iranians; but in today Iran Lurs/Luri show lighter pigmentation as some afghan minorities - that does not exclude an I-E origin in "dark" Iran before a colonization of Steppes and N-Caucasus by them and subsequent mixture with blonds steppes tribes with the return of some mixed tribes to Iran with a different way of life, more warlike and more nomadic... here I do not agree nor disagree with you because my mind is not already made...
that said, I find some of your points are sensible, as Goga's ones too. Hard to give an at hand answer even if new surveys give us new interesting looks on History...

Goga
21-07-13, 18:30
I don't know much about light features etc., since I'm absolutely not interested in the PSEUDO-science, but as far as I know Y-DNA hg. J2a is a PURE Caucasoid haplogroup…

Fire Haired
21-07-13, 19:08
Huh??? Have you read the article. That article does actually mention a modern Iranic language Avesta (proto-Kurdish), Mithra (SUN) etc. The SUN and FIRE have a very important part in real Indo-European religions.

Zoroastrianism, dualism, daevas, Avesta language do all belong to Indo European religions. I know everything about Iranic religions. I'm an Yezidi Kurd. My religion, the Yezidism, is actually Iranic (Indo-European).

The SUN deity Mithra has Indo-Iranian roots. Mithra was a SUN deity of the Medes/Persians, Mitra is also the SUN deity according to the Vedic traditions.


Swastika represents the SUN! And the Sumerians were the FIRST known people that worshipped the SUN! Sumerian SUN god UTU (8000 years old) : http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/778/mcso.jpg

Sumerian civilization started only 4,900ybp so why are u saying 8,000ybp the people who spoke the Sumerian language are suppose to have arrived 6,500-6,000ybp. Also Sumerians spoke in the Semitic branch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_languages) of the Afro Asiatic language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afroasiatic_languages) which is unrelated to Indo European languages and is about 16,000 years old. So Sumerians defintley are not the source of Indo European languages. I had no idea there was a connection in their religion. In culture though Sumerians and semetics have nothing to do with Indo european culture.

Fire Haired
21-07-13, 19:31
The original Indo Iranian speakers would have been white. If u think white is not a good way to define european because i guess ethnic groups in the caucus like Georgians also have white skin. Their DNA proved they where European aust. DNA did and mtDNA they had specifically european subclades like U5 and U2. mtDNA U2 was found in 37,985 uear old mtDNA sample in European Russia and U5 was found in 31,155 year old mtDNA sample in Czech republic so there is no doubt they came form Europe geneticalley.

I never said people in the country iran are white or European because they are not. It is true that non european people who speak a European language have 6-10% north euro(orignal paloithci european aust dna group and define being european) unlike for example Samartiens(decended from ancient Jews Semetic speakers), and Assyrians(decended from ancient assyrains Semitic speakers) who live in the same area but have less than 1% north euro.

There is defintley a European thing going on in the genetics of indo Iranian speakers that does not exist in non indo Iranian speakers.

when i say aust. DNA i almost always am talking about the globe13 test. to see where i got my info click here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadF9CLUJnTUdSbkVJaDR2UkRtUE9ka UE#gid=2)

Iranien indo iranien (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranian_languages)(modern country Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran)) north euro=5.3%

Kurd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people) indo iranien (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranian_languages) north euro= 4.7%

Assyrian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_people) semetic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_languages) north euro=0%

Duze (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druze) Semetic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_languages) north Euro=0.6%

Pashuten (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtun_people) Indo iranien (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranian_languages) (biggest ethnic group in Afghanistan) north euro=14.5%(that is almost as much as what Greeks have)

Bengali (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal)Indo Iranien (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranian_languages) speakers in north east india north euro=5.3%

Bhunji (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhunjia) Draviden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dravidian_peoples) speakers in northeast india north euro= 0%

I think there is a obvious connection with Indo Iranien language and north euro in india and west asia. Also Indo iranien speaking indians have way way way more west asian than draviden speaking indians in the same area which makes me think thhey came from iran where west asian aust. DNA is most spread out and extremly popular.

here is a map of west Asian i have made it is not completely Finnish i got confused because the dravidens and indo iranien Indians have such different aust dna that i dont know if northeast and other areas of india should repsent dravidens or indo Iranians. it gives a basic idea how it is spread out u can see Iran is domninted by it it ranges from 44-55% in Iranien, afghan, and pakistani ethnic groups. I am almost done with my north euro map i have noticed a trend with indo iranien languages and high amounts of north euro compared to non indo Iranians. But not with west Asian because Assyrians have just as high west Asian as Kurds then southwest Asian becomes more popular around isreal, Arabia, and north Africa but their afro Asiatic languages are not the reason why west asian is less popular.

(IMG)http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5954&stc=1(/IMG)

Goga
21-07-13, 19:38
Sumerian civilization started only 4,900ybp so why are u saying 8,000ybp the people who spoke the Sumerian language are suppose to have arrived 6,500-6,000ybp. Also Sumerians spoke in the Semitic branch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_languages) of the Afro Asiatic language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afroasiatic_languages) which is unrelated to Indo European languages and is about 16,000 years old. So Sumerians defintley are not the source of Indo European languages. I had no idea there was a connection in their religion. In culture though Sumerians and semetics have nothing to do with Indo european culture.Huh??? Sumerians first settled in the South Mesopotamia (Babylon) between ca. 4500 BCE (Uruku period). That is 6500 years ago. Sumerians came from North, from the Mountains, they were NOT Semitic at all. They spoke a 'Language Isolate', maybe even an ancestor of Caucasian (Hurrian) and Indo-European languages!

Fire Haired
21-07-13, 19:45
Another example where aust. DNA helps tell the ethnic origins of a language. The Uralic language is spoken mainly by extremly white people in Russia, Finalnd, and northern Scandnavia. Well the Russians used to be indoe uropean but where conquered by uralic cultures 4,000-5,000ybp modern uralic russians have almost only brown eyes just like 5,000-6,000 year old remains of the indo europeans who where later conquered by uralics.

When u think of uralic speaker it is okay to think of a blonde finnish person but they where not the first Uralics. All Uralic europeans finnish have 4.8% siberian and 1`,2% artic non uralic europeans who live near them have les than 1% of both. Well i guess baltic have more because 5,000ybp they where uralic speakers then they where conquered by corded ware culture 4,500-5,000ybp.

Fire Haired
21-07-13, 20:05
I don't know much about light features etc., since I'm absolutely not interested in the PSEUDO-science, but as far as I know Y-DNA hg. J2a is a PURE Caucasoid haplogroup…

i think u should know this without having to be a expert i dont know what pseudo science is. I do know what experts thing are the genes that create pale skin in european and they also exist in north africans and mid eastern who are also caucasin but at a much lower rate. also that blonde hair is a european trait my guess is 20,000-50,000ybp somewhere in central europe. the 3,800 year old adronovo culture remains all had pale skin, nad mainly light hair and light eyes, also thier aust. dna proves they where european.

Another intersting thing is dravdiens have a caucasin skull and facial features, hair texture, body build but they are not caucasin. Their aust DNA group is called south asian in the globe13 test it is not in the caucasin family it is a little more related to oceania Mongoloid family than than caucasin family. Also they have no Caucasin Y DNA or mtDNA they have some mtDNA U that comes from caucain inter marraige. Their mtDNA and Y DNA is in the Oceania mongloid family or in its own family.

north africans, and mid eastern have like brown hair. Caucasins are the only people that have brown hair (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_hair) and i am pretty sure it is the most popular hair color. So when talking about Caucasins i dont mention dravidens anymore they must be close relatives probably split over 70,000ybp. what this means is the caucasin face, hair texture, and body build is older than the caucasin race.

Fire Haired
21-07-13, 20:10
Huh??? Sumerians first settled in the South Mesopotamia (Babylon) between ca. 4500 BCE (Uruku period). That is 6500 years ago. Sumerians came from North, from the Mountains, they were NOT Semitic at all. They spoke a 'Language Isolate', maybe even an ancestor of Caucasian (Hurrian) and Indo-European languages!

the oldest historical records of Sumeria go back to 2,900bc aka 4,900ybp. Sumerians ancestors or just the people who spoke the ancestral form of their loanguage arrived probably in 4,500-4,900bc aka 6,500-6,900ybp.

soryy i thought they where semetic but that does not matter they did not speak a indo european language. there are many many languages that have been sugessted to be realted and one of them are indo european. there might be a connection with indo european languages and sumerians if sumerians came from the north mayb the caucus mountains.

but that does not mean indo european languages spread from west asia we know they spread from almost only russia and ukriane. maybe orignalley proto proto proto indo european came from northern iraq then spread to the caucus then to russia but i dont know if there is alot of evidence for that.

Maciamo
21-07-13, 20:32
Somebody else calculated it, not me. Also, according to this scientific study there was no migration of R1a from Europe into Central Asia: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288)

"The prevailing Y-chromosome lineage in Pashtun and Tajik (R1a1a-M17), has the highest observed diversity among populations of the Indus Valley [46]. R1a1a-M17 diversity declines toward the Pontic-Caspian steppe where the mid-Holocene R1a1a7-M458 sublineage is dominant [46]. R1a1a7-M458 was absent in Afghanistan, suggesting that R1a1a-M17 does not support, as previously thought [47], expansions from the Pontic Steppe [3], bringing the Indo-European languages to Central Asia and India."

"Furthermore, BATWING results indicate that the Afghan populations split from Iranians, Indians and East Europeans at about 10.6 kya (95% CI7,100–15,825), which marks the start of the Neolithic revolution and the establishment of the farming communities."

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288

That's because this study was published by pseudo-geneticists who have not realised that M458 is the western Slavic branch, descended from the Corded Ware culture, and not the eastern Indo-Iranian branch descended from the Abashevo-Poltavka and Sintashta-Petrovka cultures. Don't cite idiots if you don't want to look like one.

Fire Haired
21-07-13, 20:52
That's because this study was published by pseudo-geneticists who have not realised that M458 is the western Slavic branch, descended from the Corded Ware culture, and not the eastern Indo-Iranian branch descended from the Abashevo-Poltavka and Sintashta-Petrovka cultures. Don't cite idiots if you don't want to look like one.

I know ur right and u know more than anyone on this website but Goga is just trying to figure stuff out. Sure he made a mistake he wont want to agree with u if u say dont cite idots if u dont want to look like one. i think u made a mistake on ur Germanic paternal lineages and combing all I1(except Uralic branches) and I2a2.

I have learned because i have argued and debated a ton since i could talk. Even if ur completely right if u insult the other person no matter how much u want to and how right u are they will never agree with u or learn. I try to use my words in a way i can still say what i want without saying it in a way that will turn people off from agreeing with me. When i am arguing with someone even when i know their right if they insult me i never listen or agree.

I am not saying u should be soft and say everyone is right. What i do is try to convince people in the way u say it not just ur reason for why ur right. I have seen u uselly do that.

Goga
21-07-13, 20:52
Sure, idiots affiliated to different universities in the world.

Marc Haber,
Affiliations: The Lebanese American University,Chouran, Beirut, Lebanon, Evolutionary Biology Institute, Pompeu FabraUniversity, Barcelona, Spain

Daniel E. Platt,
Affiliation: Bioinformatics and Pattern Discovery,IBM T. J. Watson Research Centre, Yorktown Heights, New York, United States ofAmerica

Maziar Ashrafian Bonab,
Affiliation: Biological Sciences, School ofBiological Sciences, University of Portsmouth, Portsmouth, United Kingdom

Sonia C. Youhanna,
Affiliation: The Lebanese American University,Chouran, Beirut, Lebanon X

David F. Soria-Hernanz,
Affiliations: Evolutionary Biology Institute,Pompeu Fabra University, Barcelona, Spain, The Genographic Project, NationalGeographic Society, Washington, D.C., United States of America

Begoña Martínez-Cruz,
Affiliation: Evolutionary Biology Institute, PompeuFabra University, Barcelona, Spain

Bouchra Douaihy,
Affiliation: The Lebanese American University,Chouran, Beirut, Lebanon

Michella Ghassibe-Sabbagh,
Affiliation: The Lebanese American University,Chouran, Beirut, Lebanon

Hoshang Rafatpanah,
Affiliation: Mashhad University of MedicalSciences, Mashhad, Iran X

Mohsen Ghanbari,
Affiliation: Mashhad University of MedicalSciences, Mashhad, Iran X

John Whale,
Affiliation: Biological Sciences, School ofBiological Sciences, University of Portsmouth, Portsmouth, United Kingdom

Oleg Balanovsky,
Affiliation: Research Centre for Medical Genetics,Russian Academy of Medical Sciences, Moscow, Russia XR.

Spencer Wells,
Affiliation: The Genographic Project, NationalGeographic Society, Washington, D.C., United States of America

David Comas,
Affiliation: Evolutionary Biology Institute, PompeuFabra University, Barcelona, Spain

Chris Tyler-Smith,
Affiliation: Wellcome Trust Genome Campus, TheWellcome Trust Sanger Institute, Hinxton, Cambridgeshire, United Kingdom

Pierre A. Zalloua,
Affiliations: The Lebanese American University,Chouran, Beirut, Lebanon, Harvard School of Public Health, Harvard University,Boston, Massach

Fire Haired
21-07-13, 21:04
Sure, idiots affiliated to different universities in the world.

Marc Haber,
Affiliations: The Lebanese American University,Chouran, Beirut, Lebanon, Evolutionary Biology Institute, Pompeu FabraUniversity, Barcelona, Spain

Daniel E. Platt,
Affiliation: Bioinformatics and Pattern Discovery,IBM T. J. Watson Research Centre, Yorktown Heights, New York, United States ofAmerica

Maziar Ashrafian Bonab,
Affiliation: Biological Sciences, School ofBiological Sciences, University of Portsmouth, Portsmouth, United Kingdom

Sonia C. Youhanna,
Affiliation: The Lebanese American University,Chouran, Beirut, Lebanon X

David F. Soria-Hernanz,
Affiliations: Evolutionary Biology Institute,Pompeu Fabra University, Barcelona, Spain, The Genographic Project, NationalGeographic Society, Washington, D.C., United States of America

Begoña Martínez-Cruz,
Affiliation: Evolutionary Biology Institute, PompeuFabra University, Barcelona, Spain

Bouchra Douaihy,
Affiliation: The Lebanese American University,Chouran, Beirut, Lebanon X

Michella Ghassibe-Sabbagh,
Affiliation: The Lebanese American University,Chouran, Beirut, Lebanon

Hoshang Rafatpanah,
Affiliation: Mashhad University of MedicalSciences, Mashhad, Iran X

Mohsen Ghanbari,
Affiliation: Mashhad University of MedicalSciences, Mashhad, Iran X

John Whale,
Affiliation: Biological Sciences, School ofBiological Sciences, University of Portsmouth, Portsmouth, United Kingdom

Oleg Balanovsky,
Affiliation: Research Centre for Medical Genetics,Russian Academy of Medical Sciences, Moscow, Russia XR.

Spencer Wells,
Affiliation: The Genographic Project, NationalGeographic Society, Washington, D.C., United States of America

David Comas,
Affiliation: Evolutionary Biology Institute, PompeuFabra University, Barcelona, Spain

Chris Tyler-Smith,
Affiliation: Wellcome Trust Genome Campus, TheWellcome Trust Sanger Institute, Hinxton, Cambridgeshire, United Kingdom

Pierre A. Zalloua,
Affiliations: The Lebanese American University,Chouran, Beirut, Lebanon, Harvard School of Public Health, Harvard University,Boston, Massach

but they where wrong they did not look at SNP tree. Which shows the older branches are in Europe. Also that Indo European languages are the obvious source of R1a1a1b in Europe and Asia. i dont need to explain what maciamo already said about the cultures. One thing i want to add is Y DNA from Adronovo and Afanasevo had R1a1a same with Corded ware. So ancient DNA totally backs up the whole Indo European think.

Yamna cultue is most likley the source since Corded ware culture and Abashevo-Poltavka, Sintashta-Petrovka, Afanasevo, Adrnovo cultures descend from Yamna. It all connects also German scientist have a bunch of mtDNA and 6 y dna samples from yamna culture but have not made it public which is annoying. The 6 y dna samples where buried in Kurgens traditional Indo European burial which means they probably where not forigners. They may have had a diff y dna haplogroup but since all Indo Iranien remains had R1a1a except one had C i think they will have R1a1a. I am sure if they test them for R1a1a1b they will have that.

So far ancient Y DNA totally backs up the idea Indo Europeans spread R1a and R1b but not all of it. i wonder if Balto Slavic languages and Indo Iranien languages are most related to each other. Since both decend from Yamna culture and both decend from R1a1a1b.

Goga
21-07-13, 21:13
Whatever, just show me 1 (just one !!) TRUE current academic anno 2013 (and not racist (East) European amateur bloggers) that supports your WILD fairy tales! The FACT is that there's no MODERN academic paper at all that supports this fantasy!

Also, Corded is probably European R1a-Z283 and R1a branches in Central Asia belong to R1a-Z93.

Fire Haired
21-07-13, 21:40
Why do u keep on arguing obvious stuff. I am not eastern European neither is Maciamo. These are not wild ferry tales what evidence do u have. Besides just listning to diversty rate. The oldest r1a subclades ARE NOT IN WEST ASIA they are in Europe the ancestor to the Indo Iranien clade is in eastern Europe. R1a1a1b was spread to asia by Indo iraniens. the earlest Indo Iranien speakers lived in cental asia.

many experts agree with us about the spread of Indo iraniens maybe not the spread of R1a. well R1a1a was found in y dna of those cultres so it is pretty obvous. It is a fact Indo Iranien speakers have north euro aust. dna in glob13 test while non indo iranien speakers in the same area rarelly have 1%. The first Indo iranien speakers maybe not the first Ind Aryans where European genetically i am not being raciest it is in ancient remains. i am using that to figure out their origin and as evidence they migrated out of Russia.

central asia R1a Z92 is the brother to European R1a Z283 they come from the same source. The cultures u say where not Indo Iranian their remains had R1a1a and are believed by most experts to be the first Indo Iranians. Those cultures come from the same ancestor culture in Russia as Corded ware so it makes sense that Corded ware remains have R1a1a to and that yamna culture had the eastern european and Asian ancestral form R1a1a1b.

Indo European culture bommed in Russia, Ukraine, and caucus. In my opinon the language and most of the culture migrated from the north caucus with R1b M269 maciamo is the one who thought of that. The languages spread from mainly russia and Ukriane. I am willing it was mid easterns who spread the language to Russia and Ukraine and that is where my y dan and language originally came from, it seems u are not willing to admit that it was white people who where the first to speak a Indo Iranian language or spread Y DNA R1a1a1b in Asia.

I know it seems i am trying to make everything about Indo Europeans white but i am not i am willing to say they where east asian or whatever. Maciamo at first being Celtic and Germanic was willing to say that Italo Germanic languages and their R1b spread from Turkey/Anatolia.

Goga
21-07-13, 22:04
I don’t mean you or Maciamo. I do really like Maciamo, he's truly a very great European fella. I like this informative site very much. But I'm sick of Eastern European bloggers especially from Poland that distort historic facts and genetic data. Those East Europeans do engulf us with lies and pure propaganda.

I want to be convinced and If you just show me 1 academic paper that can change my mind I'll be very grateful. I want to see the evidence. Proof me that you're right!

No matter how long you wait the real truth comes always to the surface!

The thing is that all the current MODERN academic papers I read confirm my ideas.

It's all about quality and NOT quantity!

I'm sorry if I insulted somebody,

Bye

Fire Haired
21-07-13, 23:44
Goga

The Kurgen theory which started in the 1950's totally agrees with what me and Maciamo have been saying. here is a link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis.

Did u notice those academic papers said it look like the older belives that R1a was spread from Pontiac Caspian steppes. This means other experts agree with us. We are not just going off of our own idea we go off of SNP DNA tree's, ancient DNA samples, and modern DNA samples.

Te fact that Sumerians where did not speak a Afro Asiatic language when almost everyone in the middle east and north Africa not counting Indo Iranians speaks a Afro Asiatic language. Also that u said they come from the north makes me think they originated north of Afro Asiatic territory.

here is a map of afro asiatic languages
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/24/Hamito-Semitic_languages.jpg/300px-Hamito-Semitic_languages.jpg

Afro Asiatic languages are about 16,000 years old. They probably originated in southwest Asia around Israel and southern Iraq. They reason east Africans speak a afro Asiatic language. Is the same reason they have mainly mid eastern Y DNA J1, over 30% southwest Asian aus. DNA in globe 13 test, and why some have caucasin skull shapes and paler skin than other Africans. The bible mentions east Africans mainly Ethiopians Moses wife was Ethiopian Moses who lived over 3,000 years ago most likely had Y DNA J. East Africans where connected with the civilized world which originally was just around the middle east. Also 9,000ybp mtDNA in syria all but 2 had sub sharen African L2a which is Ethiopians most popular mtDNA haplogroup and extremely surprisingly one had Mongoloid C1 same with 7,500 year old mtDNA in north west Russia. So basically i am saying they had alot of contact with southwest Asians for well over 10,000 years. Arabs and north africans also have high amounts of east African.

So if ur right sumerians migrated from the north they probably came from northern Iraq and caucus and possibly more east around Iran. Indo European languages may have started around Armenia and north Iraq which could explain why Armenians speak the oldest indo european language and they are their own branch.

Since people in eastern Ukriane and central russia 8,000ybp where hunter gathers just becoming farmers. And the indo european language was started by farmers, with advanced clothing, and possibly bronze. And that Bronze and other things would have spread to ukriane and russia through the caucus moauntins maybe the Indo European language came with. Or the ukriaens and russian hunter gathers spoke proto proto Indo Europeans which formed into Indo Europeans after becoming more advanced. And that Maykop culture learned the krugen burail and other indo european cultrall things from the Ukraine and Prussian people. Which is waht most experts have believed since the 1950's

Goga
22-07-13, 00:06
??? Native tribes on the Iranian Plateau and in Kurdistan NEVER spoke Semitic languages. Sumerians came from an area where Semitic languages are and never have been spoken.

Old dated Kurgan theory from the 50s is pretty much dead. We live in the year 2013 and not in 1950, lol. Even Maciamo’s R1b theory destroys Kurgan theory. According to the Kurgan theory proto-Indo-Europeans came from North Europe. But that’s impossible because native haplogroups of that area are hg. N1c and I.

Maciamo’s theory that Indo-European R1b came from the Iranian Plateau DESTROYS the Kurgan theory.

Also the theory that Maykop Culture from West Asia, Indo-Europized the Yamna Horizon folks destroys the Kurgan theory.

R1b theory of Maciamo & Maykop Culture is in favor of the ANATOLIAN Model!

If Maciamo’s theory about R1b is right then you like it or not proto-Indo-Europeans possessed mostly of West Asian aDNA component. Proto-Indo-Europeans were not Northeast Europeans at all. NorthEast European foragers were actually Mongoloid people.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3GlNx4Idu0I/Tthou3nJX7I/AAAAAAAADYc/X1ZPDOFnAzM/s1600/indoeuropeanlanguagemigationArmenianHypothesis.jpg

Fire Haired
22-07-13, 04:23
??? Native tribes on the Iranian Plateau and in Kurdistan NEVER spoke Semitic languages. Sumerians came from an area where Semitic languages are and never have been spoken.

[QUOTE=Goga;412358]Old dated Kurgan theory from the 50s is pretty much dead. We live in the year 2013 and not in 1950, lol. Even Maciamo’s R1b theory destroys Kurgan theory. According to the Kurgan theory proto-Indo-Europeans came from North Europe. But that’s impossible because native haplogroups of that area are hg. N1c and I.

show me evidence their dead because what i have seen almost every expert agree's. and R1a and R1b found in these cultures totally backs up those very intelligent theory's of the 1950's. They had bones and art just like we do just a little more and they where just as smart. Actulely according to the krugen theory Indo europeans started around eastern Ukraine and central russia possibly the caucus because of maykop 6,000 year old kurgen burail but their was also a 6,000 year old kurgen found in southeastern poland(near Ukraine). The kurgen burail spread with Indo European languages.

Y DNA N1c came to northeast europe with urlaic languages and Kunda culture 8,000ybp Y DNA N is a mongloid haplogroup. y DNA I is native to europe.


Maciamo’s theory that Indo-European R1b came from the Iranian Plateau DESTROYS the Kurgan theory.

no it does not he clearly shows R1b L51 later R1b L11 migrating from southern Russia and Ukriane to western Europe and R1b M73 migrating from central russia to central asia with Indo iranien languages. He does have some pre Indo European R1b.


Also the theory that Maykop Culture from West Asia, Indo-Europized the Yamna Horizon folks destroys the Kurgan theory.

R1b theory of Maciamo & Maykop Culture is in favor of the ANATOLIAN Model!

Actulley not really the reason why people think maykop was indo european is because they had a kurgen burail, but like i said before a 6,000 year old kurgen was also found in southeast poland. So it is hard to say if it was Ukrainiane and russia whowhere the first Indo European speakers or north caucus people they where probably orignalley from west asia but may have gooten their indo european side from niflunce by urkianen and russians.

Caucus is not Anatolia. There is no strong evidence of Indo European r1a and R1b branches spreading from Anatolia and the first Indo European people in Anatolia where the Hittites in 1,800bc. Maykop seems to have a west asian origi besides maybe the indo european parts that does not mean Anatolia. that is like saying because Germanic languages where in northern Germany 4,000ybp that the German language originated in France.




If Maciamo’s theory about R1b is right then you like it or not proto-Indo-Europeans possessed mostly of West Asian aDNA component. Proto-Indo-Europeans were not Northeast Europeans at all. NorthEast European foragers were actually Mongoloid people.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3GlNx4Idu0I/Tthou3nJX7I/AAAAAAAADYc/X1ZPDOFnAzM/s1600/indoeuropeanlanguagemigationArmenianHypothesis.jpg

wait a second where is the evidence of a west asian component and indo european languages. No Indo European languages spread from west asia except maybe proto Indo European. Indo Iranien spread with R1a1a1b2 from Yamna- Sintashta culture etc. Balto Slavic spread with R1a1a1b1 with Yamna-Corded ware culture. Germanic Italo Celtic spread from Russia Unknown culture- conquering Bell Beaker and forming into Nordic Bronze age culture for Germanic and Unetice culture for Itao Celtic.

There is a sign of a north euro aust. DNA component in indo iranien speaking ethnic groups that people in the same area who dont speak indo iranien dont have. Also remains from very very early Indo Iranians show they are European and had mainly light hair and eyes and closest relatives are north east Europeans(that does not mean the language originated there they may have been conquered by earlier Indo Europeans from Russia). there is no west asian connection with European Indo European languges. Once again they most likely spread more north euro aust dna because aust. DNA from neloithic european farmers had over 59% med and less than 29% north euro while modern europeans in the same area have usuelly over 50% north euro. aust. DNA from european hunter gathers in the nelothic age had over 71% north euro which could just mean eventulley hunter gathers became the dominte group genetically.

but sardine people who have been isolated genetically on that island for over 5,000 years have 71% med and modern Iberian have over 50% they faced indo european invasions only 2,700-2,500ybp and non indo european basque have 59%.

also from 6,000 and 5,000 year old indo european yamna culture reamins in southern russia almost all had brown eyes they also had pale skin same genes as modern Europeans. theyw here conquered by Uralic cultures 5,000-4,000ybp non Slavic Uralic ethnic groups in that area of Russia have almost only brown eyes unlike Slavic Russians so they most likely mainly decend from yamna culture. also they have some of the highest amount of north euro in Europe at over 70% so Yamna had at least or more.

only R1b M173 on maciamo's map has to do with Indo Iranians and it obliviously shows it spreading from russia
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-migration-map.jpg
also he shows in his R1a map indo iranien r1a Z93 taking the same route.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1a_migration_map.jpg

He shows R1b M343 originated in iran 18,000 years ago well before Indo european languages. honestly i think proto proto indo european was spoken by caucus or people in Armenia 7,000-8,000ybp possibly sumerians spoke a related language or they spoke another non afro Asiatic lanuage. with high amounts of r1b m269. maciamos maps explain so much which i have been trying to shape in my head it helps alot.

Sennevini
23-07-13, 19:43
It's really remarkable that a large amount of Indians are part of such a subbranch.

Goga
23-07-13, 20:56
show me evidence their dead because what i have seen almost every expert agree's. and R1a and R1b found in these cultures totally backs up those very intelligent theory's of the 1950's. They had bones and art just like we do just a little more and they where just as smart. Actulely according to the krugen theory Indo europeans started around eastern Ukraine and central russia possibly the caucus because of maykop 6,000 year old kurgen burail but their was also a 6,000 year old kurgen found in southeastern poland(near Ukraine). The kurgen burail spread with Indo European languages.

Y DNA N1c came to northeast europe with urlaic languages and Kunda culture 8,000ybp Y DNA N is a mongloid haplogroup. y DNA I is native to europe.


Actulley not really the reason why people think maykop was indo european is because they had a kurgen burail, but like i said before a 6,000 year old kurgen was also found in southeast poland. So it is hard to say if it was Ukrainiane and russia whowhere the first Indo European speakers or north caucus people they where probably orignalley from west asia but may have gooten their indo european side from niflunce by urkianen and russians.

wait a second where is the evidence of a west asian component and indo european languages.The oldest Kurgan has been found in West Asia, Göbekli Tepe! Also there's lots of hg. J2a in Ukraine and other east European countries north of the Black Sea. Also there’s more West Asian component in Central Asia and SouthCentral Asia than other components that are not native to that area.

Goga
23-07-13, 20:59
There're 5 theories about the origin of Haplogroup R-M17: South Asian origin hypothesis,West Asian origin hypothesis, Central Asian origin hypothesis, Early(pre-Holocene) Eastern European migration hypotheses and Later (Bronzeage) Steppe culture hypothesis.

West Asian origin hypothesis makes most sense to me, also this theory is still considered to be consistent with known data, while other theories getting less and less support!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA))

Fire Haired
23-07-13, 21:02
The oldest Kurgan has been found in West Asia, Göbekli Tepe! Also there's lots of hg. J2a in Ukraine and other east European countries north of the Black Sea. Also there’s more West Asian component in Central Asia and SouthCentral Asia than other components that are not native to that area.

there was also a 6,000 year old kurgen found in southeastern poland. R1b P297 migrated from the caucus to the steppes probably 10,000ybp R1b M269 maybe wa not born in russia but it lived most of its live there. Even indo european R1b all comes from the steppes. Now i think the Indo European language defintley comes from the steppes and the kurgen theory was correct.

also there is no evidence was so ever that Indo Europeans have anything to do with J2a. Also there is no evidence of a branch of the Indo European language spreading from west asia to anywhere it all came from the steppes. I dont think there is alot of J2a in Ukriane and that does ot mean it is from Indo Europeans where is the high amount of J2a in ireland or south Siberia(where there was heavy Indo iranien settlment for 3,000 years).

U keep [ushing for west asia but there really is not that much evidence but u could be right at somepoints. i have noticed a weird amount of west Asian in siberia. I think Indo European language probably started in the steppes and spread from the steppes.

Goga
23-07-13, 21:05
there was also a 6,000 year old kurgen found in southeastern poland. R1b P297 migrated from the caucus to the steppes probably 10,000ybp R1b M269 maybe wa not born in russia but it lived most of its live there. Even indo european R1b all comes from the steppes. Now i think the Indo European language defintley comes from the steppes and the kurgen theory was correct.

also there is no evidence was so ever that Indo Europeans have anything to do with J2a. Also there is no evidence of a branch of the Indo European language spreading from west asia to anywhere it all came from the steppes. I dont think there is alot of J2a in Ukriane and that does ot mean it is from Indo Europeans where is the high amount of J2a in ireland or south Siberia(where there was heavy Indo iranien settlment for 3,000 years).

U keep [ushing for west asia but there really is not that much evidence but u could be right at somepoints. i have noticed a weird amount of west Asian in siberia. I think Indo European language probably started in the steppes and spread from the steppes.Göbekli Tepe is 12000 !!! years old!!!

About Later (Bronze age) Steppe culture hypothesis:

"However, in recent discussions of this theory it is considered only to apply to a part of R-M17, making this theory no longer incompatible with other origins theories for R1a more broadly defined (Underhill 2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA)#CITEREFUnderhill2009))."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA)

Fire Haired
23-07-13, 21:06
There're 5 theories about the origin of Haplogroup R-M17: South Asian origin hypothesis,West Asian origin hypothesis, Central Asian origin hypothesis, Early(pre-Holocene) Eastern European migration hypotheses and Later (Bronzeage) Steppe culture hypothesis.

West Asian origin hypothesis makes most sense to me, also this theory is still considered to be consistent with known data, while other theories getting less and less support!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA))

the southasia and west Asian theory are based on diversity because those populations historical have been bigger than in Europe. but the oldest subclades are found in Europe and the indo european ones ancestry to R1a in India and asia are found in the steppes same with ancestral version to indo european r1b. so there is no way it began in west Asia because they have subclades descended of steppe subclades.

also these people dont consider archaeology and other stuff all they look at is diversity and rarely look at the SNP r1a tree. to figure out where DNA came from its history and stuff like that u need to be like a detective not a scientist.

Fire Haired
23-07-13, 21:09
Göbekli Tepe is 12000 !!! years old!!!

About Later (Bronze age) Steppe culture hypothesis:

"However, in recent discussions of this theory it is considered only to apply to a part of R-M17, making this theory no longer incompatible with other origins theories for R1a more broadly defined (Underhill 2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA)#CITEREFUnderhill2009))."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA)

i think u are confused with a 6,000 year old maykop culture kurgen there is nothing about a kurgen at Gobekli tepe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

http://www.gobeklitepe.info/who_how_why.html

Goga
23-07-13, 21:11
the southasia and west Asian theory are based on diversity because those populations historical have been bigger than in Europe. but the oldest subclades are found in Europe and the indo european ones ancestry to R1a in India and asia are found in the steppes same with ancestral version to indo european r1b. so there is no way it began in west Asia because they have subclades descended of steppe subclades.

also these people dont consider archaeology and other stuff all they look at is diversity and rarely look at the SNP r1a tree. to figure out where DNA came from its history and stuff like that u need to be like a detective not a scientist.No, 'from the SNP distribution of the "FTDNA R1a1a and subclades project" we know that the oldest branches of R1a were also found in West Asia, although the Asian side of R1a is heavily underrepresented in public data sets.' http://kurdishdna.blogspot.nl/2013/05/r1a-tree.html

Goga
23-07-13, 21:16
i think u are confused with a 6,000 year old maykop culture kurgen there is nothing about a kurgen at Gobekli tepe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

http://www.gobeklitepe.info/who_how_why.htmlGobekli Tepe is the oldest Kurgan to date and it was deliberately buried, like Kurgans in the steppes. Do you know actually what a Kurgan is, lol?
"Scientists Confirm Gobekli Tepe Was Buried On Purpose in Ancient Times" - http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2013/05/scientists-confirm-gobekli-tepe-was-buried-on-purpose-in-ancient-times-2654994.html

Goga
23-07-13, 21:20
About Later (Bronze age) Steppe culture hypothesis: "However, in recent discussions of this theory it is considered only to apply to a part of R-M17, making this theory no longer incompatible with other origins theories for R1a more broadly defined (Underhill 2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA)#CITEREFUnderhill2009))." : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA)

About West Asian origin: "A Middle Eastern origin for R-M17 has long been considered a possibility, and is still considered to be consistent with known data (Underhill 2009, Regueiro 2006, Kivisild 2003, and Semino 2000)" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA))

Fire Haired
23-07-13, 21:23
ur article never mentions a kurgen burail trust me maciamo the head of this website and a complete generous would know about this he would be huge news. there is no 12,000 year old kurgen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan) in Anatolia. a kurgen is a special type of burail not just a burial the oldest human remains are buried but not in a kurgen.

Fire Haired
23-07-13, 21:24
About Later (Bronze age) Steppe culture hypothesis: "However, in recent discussions of this theory it is considered only to apply to a part of R-M17, making this theory no longer incompatible with other origins theories for R1a more broadly defined (Underhill 2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA)#CITEREFUnderhill2009))." : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA)

About West Asian origin: "A Middle Eastern origin for R-M17 has long been considered a possibility, and is still considered to be consistent with known data (Underhill 2009, Regueiro 2006, Kivisild 2003, and Semino 2000)" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA))

u keep ignoring the simple fact is that mid eastern R1a is found in the steppes and the oldest forms are found in Europe. If they originated there why are the oldest forms found in Europe. that simple thing proves all of that wrong.

also there is a huge connection with R1a and Indo Europeans and kurgens. why from 31 Neolithic european y dna non had r1b or r1a. then y dna from the first indo european cultures in central Europe two have r1b two have r1a. then the first idno european cultures in asia what do u know they have r1a and they descend from the same culture as the european one with r1a.

why do u think r1a is so popular in the indus valley area because indo Iranians conquered it 3,500-4,000ybp. why do people ignore that the indus valley r1a subclades trace back to the steppes.

Fire Haired
23-07-13, 21:28
u have a clear biased u want everything to be west asia. no matter how much evidence u ARE SO STUBBORN.

Fire Haired
23-07-13, 21:32
here is a map this is according to one study to other resources i have seen they all say the oldest are in europe.

http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l625/ft-d/1O-R1a.jpg

This is where the guy got his info from. U can see the R1* is found in Europe and west asia just they found more in west asia. Also R1a1a* which is ancestral to the Indo European branch was only found in Europe. I would not trust these small studies as much they dont have as much info plus they have way more european samples than any other area. U cant ignore that Indo iranien culture originated in the steppes and Idno iranien R1a orignated in the steppes also Indo European culture spread from the steppes.

u could be right about R2a starting in west asia but i still doubt. But Indo European languages did not spread from west asia possibly started there and then spread to the steppes but after that it all came fro the steppes.

Goga
23-07-13, 21:33
ur article never mentions a kurgen burail trust me maciamo the head of this website and a complete generous would know about this he would be huge news. there is no 12,000 year old kurgen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan) in Anatolia. a kurgen is a special type of burail not just a burial the oldest human remains are buried but not in a kurgen.Dude, are you in denial? Gobekli Tepe is a ritual BURIAL made with an intention = KURGAN. It predates all another Kurgans = ritual BURIALS made with an intention by at least 7000 years. Ofcourse unsophisticated burials/Kurgans in the steppes differ a little bit with ancient Kurgans in West Asia.

Foragers were influenced by a highculture from West Asia, but even 8000 years later they couldn’t improve Kurgans in Gobekli Tepe!

http://www.mundus-reizen.com/pages/Gobekli-Tepe/images/gobekli_tepe_tempel.jpg

Goga
23-07-13, 21:34
here is a map this is according to one study to other resources i have seen they all say the oldest are in europe.

http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l625/ft-d/1O-R1a.jpg

This is where the guy got his info from. U can see the R1* is found in Europe and west asia just they found more in west asia. Also R1a1a* which is ancestral to the Indo European branch was only found in Europe.
dude, light blue line is the OLDEST.

Fire Haired
23-07-13, 21:39
i looked at eupedia all they mentioned was diversity they ignored the fact that the oldest from what i have seen are almost always found in Europe. Also the west asian they used kurds who are indo Iranian as their example for R1a diversity well of course their indo European plus they have indo european subclades from what i know. They say indus valley but do they realize indus valley was dominated by indo Europeans for 3,500ybp they keep ignoring those facts.

Fire Haired
23-07-13, 21:42
Dude, are you in denial? Gobekli Tepe is a ritual BURIAL made with an intention = KURGAN. It predates all another Kurgans = ritual BURIALS made with an intention by at least 7000 years. Ofcourse unsophisticated burials/Kurgans in the steppes differ a little bit with ancient Kurgans in West Asia.

Foragers were influenced by a highculture from West Asia, but even 8000 years later they couldn’t improve Kurgans in Gobekli Tepe!

http://www.mundus-reizen.com/pages/Gobekli-Tepe/images/gobekli_tepe_tempel.jpg

a indo european krugen is diff. those are not like indo european kurgen.

Burial mounds are complex structures with internal chambers. Within the burial chamber at the heart of the kurgan, elite individuals were buried with grave goods and sacrificial offerings, sometimes including horses and chariots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot). Kurgans were used in the Ukrainian and Russian Steppes but spread into eastern, central, and northern Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe) in the 3rd millennium BC.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/LYablonskyFilipovkaKurganR1.jpg/300px-LYablonskyFilipovkaKurganR1.jpg

u war the only one saying its a kurgen non of those experts said that i would know the world would know that there is a 12,000 year old kurgen in turkey. thatwowuld change the whole idea of indo europeans. on wikpedia but of course this time u will say it is not a good source it says the oldest krugens are 6,000 years old one in the north caucus one in southeastern poland. ur picture is not a kurgen.

Fire Haired
23-07-13, 21:44
dude, light blue line is the OLDEST.

i know but the red is R1a1a proto Indo European had R1a1a1b so this is its grandpapa and its in europe. also what suprises me what the heck is it doing in spain. look at what maciamo says and other people the oldest are found in Europe i trust thyat it totally makes sense with the indo europeans in the steppes. r1b went through the caucus from the mid east and r1a was already in the steppes.

Goga
23-07-13, 21:50
i know but the red is R1a1a proto Indo European had R1a1a1b so this is its grandpapa and its in europe. also what suprises me what the heck is it doing in spain. look at what maciamo says and other people the oldest are found in Europe i trust thyat it totally makes sense with the indo europeans in the steppes. r1b went through the caucus from the mid east and r1a was already in the steppes.First of all R1a islike R1b from Central Asia OR the maybe the Iranian Plateau. Because the ancestor and sister clade R2* also have been found in that area. Eupedia doesn't deny that the orginal R1a is from that area. The point is that according to Eupedia a specific clade of R1a, R-M17 was evolved somewhere in the Steppes. But Eurpedia seems to forget that they're also other 4 theories about the origin of that subclade. Eupedia doesn't know that Later (Bronze age) Steppe culture hypothesis of R-M17 is no longer incompatible with other theories.

About Later (Bronze age) Steppe culturehypothesis: "However, in recent discussions of this theory it isconsidered only to apply to a part of R-M17, making this theory no longerincompatible with other origins theories for R1a more broadly defined (Underhill 2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA)#CITEREFUnderhill2009))." : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA))

About West Asian origin: "A Middle Eastern origin for R-M17 has long beenconsidered a possibility, and is still considered to be consistent withknown data (Underhill 2009, Regueiro 2006, Kivisild 2003, and Semino2000)" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA))


Light hair can be also come from mtDNA (females) and NOT Y-DNA at all. My uncle (full Kurdish) is married 2 times. He has got brown hair. Children from his first wife all have brown to dark blond hair, but the son from his second wife has got RED hair.

Fire Haired
23-07-13, 21:50
i do agree it seems to that one source r1a* is in the mid east. I defintley consider its origin there it posibly migrated there with r1b to the steppes juust other stuff i have looked at says it is from Europe. The iNDo European language though spred out of the steppes throughout Europe and asia.

Goga
23-07-13, 21:56
a indo european krugen is diff. those are not like indo european kurgen.Kurgans in the Steppes are different because another a less sophisticated ethnic group (foragers) build those Kurgans.

Goga
23-07-13, 22:04
i do agree it seems to that one source r1a* is in the mid east. I defintley consider its origin there it posibly migrated there with r1b to the steppes juust other stuff i have looked at says it is from Europe. The iNDo European language though spred out of the steppes throughout Europe and asia.R1a subcladesin Europe are MUCH older than subclades of R1b. According to me it's possible that some ancient R1a in Europe arrived in Europe with the Neolithic farmers.
Also, it's possible that SouthAsia (North India) was Indo Europized by tribes from CentralAsia, but my point is that we still don't know by whom those (R1a) Central Asians were Indo-Europized.
PS, you can have the last word. Such discussions are exausting!

Yetos
23-07-13, 22:14
ur article never mentions a kurgen burail trust me maciamo the head of this website and a complete generous would know about this he would be huge news. there is no 12,000 year old kurgen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan) in Anatolia. a kurgen is a special type of burail not just a burial the oldest human remains are buried but not in a kurgen.

first you must answer this 4 questions,

1) Layla teppe is the mother civilisation of Maykop?
2) Tocharians were they Anatolians?
3) why in IE we find Summerian vocabulary similar to most IE languages? (even in Irish)
4) In Varna we find the first Gold Mettalurgy and burial rituals much before than in Kurgans? why?

The suggestion of Macciamo that R1b enter Eurasian steppe from Anatolia solves many questions, but still lucks in Balkans.

Fire Haired
23-07-13, 22:23
First of all R1a islike R1b from Central Asia OR the maybe the Iranian Plateau. Because the ancestorsand sister clade R2* also have been found in that area. Eupedia dean;t denythat the orginal r1a os from that are. The point is that according to Eupedia aspecific clade of r1a, R-M17 was evolved somewhere in the Steppes. But Eurpediaseems to forget that they’re also other 4 theories about the origin of thatsubclade. Eupedia doesn’t know that Later (Bronze age) Steppe culture hypothesis of R-M17 is no longer incompatible with other theories.


Ur right R2 is in around pakistan and iran. R1 seems to have originated there. U know R1* today is still found in native Americans and siberians it is in the mongloid family Caucasins got it through inter marriage probably 25,000ybp. Eupedia say orignal proto Indo European R1a1a1 M417 is in northeast Europe also that German speakers have a son R1a1a1a which spread there from the steppes while Balto Slavs and Indo iraniens have R1a1a1b which also spread there from the steppe.

also there is about 5% north euro aust DNA in indo iranien spekers that non Indo Iranien speakers around them dont have. Also the oldest indo Iranian remains where european.


About Later (Bronze age) Steppe culturehypothesis: "However, in recent discussions of this theory it isconsidered only to apply to a part of R-M17, making this theory no longerincompatible with other origins theories for R1a more broadly defined (Underhill 2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA)#CITEREFUnderhill2009))." : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA))

there only evidence is diversty we have ancient DNA modenrn DAn in indo european speakers they for some reason ignore our evidence.honestly it is like those guys like to be boring and agree with whatever seems most unlikley.

About West Asian origin: "A Middle Eastern origin for R-M17 has long beenconsidered a possibility, and is still considered to be consistent withknown data (Underhill 2009, Regueiro 2006, Kivisild 2003, and Semino2000)" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M17_(Y-DNA))



Light hair can be also come from mtDNA (females) and NOT Y-DNA at all. My uncle (full Kurdish) is married 2 times. He has got brown hair. Children from his first wife all have brown to dark blond hair, but the son from his second wife has got RED hair.

light hair and eyes is not passed down through mtdna or y dna. also Kurdish having red hair is huge evidence of european origin of the indo Iranian language also i told u about 3,800 year old indo Iranians they mainly had light hair and eyes which is why it exists in modern indo irniens in Asia. also indo Iranians like Sytheins where known for red hair and we have two over 3,000 year old indo Iranian redhead mummies in west china.

Herodotus wrote about an enormous city, Gelonus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelonus), in the northern part of Scythia[49] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians#cite_note-49)
The Budini are a large and powerful nation: they have all deep blue eyes, and bright red hair

chinese paintgs of tocherian buddhist monk in 6 century ad we have tocherian writting they where for a fact indo iranien.
http://www.irishoriginsofcivilization.com/miscimages/Tocharians-in-China.JPG

tocherians where conquered by a turkish tribe in 700ad but still many people from that trukish tribe today look european here is a example
http://i.io.ua/img_su/large/0010/03/00100363_n9.jpg
kalalsh redhead pakistan
http://unsafeharbour.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/young-kalash-boy.jpg

Fire Haired
23-07-13, 22:37
first you must answer this 4 questions,

1) Layla teppe is the mother civilisation of Maykop?
2) Tocharians were they Anatolians?
3) why in IE we find Summerian vocabulary similar to most IE languages? (even in Irish)
4) In Varna we find the first Gold Mettalurgy and burial rituals much before than in Kurgans? why?

The suggestion of Macciamo that R1b enter Eurasian steppe from Anatolia solves many questions, but still lucks in Balkans.

1. Layla teppe was made by hunter gathers in central trukey 11,000-12,000ybp. maykop where farmers and bronze makers in the north caucus many miles away and existed from 5,700-4,500ybp after the being of indo european languages and way way after Layla teppe no way can u assume they are related they are not.

2. There is no evidence of Tocherians being Antolian they where very well known for red hair and light eyes.
tocherian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharians) buddhist monk 600ad he is the one with red hair
http://www.irishoriginsofcivilization.com/miscimages/Tocharians-in-China.JPG

Also Indo Iranian languages culture ancestral culture is Yamna which was in the steppes we have 6,000 year old DNA from yamna scientist have not released full results all they said is they where white and had mainly brown eyes. also 3,800 year old indo Iranian remains had mainly light hair and eyes there is no doubt geneticalley they had a European origin meaning they came from the steppe not Anatolia. Also there is a trace of European aust dna in indo Iranian speakers that does not exist in their neighbors like Kurdish have 5% north euro in globe13 aust dna test Assyrians who live right next to them have 0%.

3.I dont know how true what ur saying is but i wonder if that mean sumerian is related to Indo European. Because they did not speak a semetic language possibly they came north from there near the caucus where R1b spread to the steppes from. Possibly this also means Indo European language began around the caucus with R1b P297.

4. so what it is still not a kugren.

no maciamos new map makes alot more sense it swent through the southern steppe to the balkens to western europe and turkey which is where hittites come from.

also the strong connection with red hair and r1b l11.p310 in western europe points to a european origin not antolian. also since red hair was popular in indo iraniens who migrted from the steppe. also red hair today is 15-20% in udmurts who live in volga Russia a area where yamna culture existed. also udmurts speak a uralic language yamna culture was conquered by uralic cultures 5,000-4,000ybp their remains ahd mainly brown eyes just like udmurt so they most likely mainly decend from very early indo european yamna culture and steppe people spread red hair with indo european languages.

also maciamo oriignally said it went from the steppe to turkey but it first came from the steppe.

Yetos
24-07-13, 04:49
1. Layla teppe was made by hunter gathers in central trukey 11,000-12,000ybp. maykop where farmers and bronze makers in the north caucus many miles away and existed from 5,700-4,500ybp after the being of indo european languages and way way after Layla teppe no way can u assume they are related they are not.

2. There is no evidence of Tocherians being Antolian they where very well known for red hair and light eyes.
tocherian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharians) buddhist monk 600ad he is the one with red hair
http://www.irishoriginsofcivilization.com/miscimages/Tocharians-in-China.JPG

Also Indo Iranian languages culture ancestral culture is Yamna which was in the steppes we have 6,000 year old DNA from yamna scientist have not released full results all they said is they where white and had mainly brown eyes. also 3,800 year old indo Iranian remains had mainly light hair and eyes there is no doubt geneticalley they had a European origin meaning they came from the steppe not Anatolia. Also there is a trace of European aust dna in indo Iranian speakers that does not exist in their neighbors like Kurdish have 5% north euro in globe13 aust dna test Assyrians who live right next to them have 0%.

3.I dont know how true what ur saying is but i wonder if that mean sumerian is related to Indo European. Because they did not speak a semetic language possibly they came north from there near the caucus where R1b spread to the steppes from. Possibly this also means Indo European language began around the caucus with R1b P297.

4. so what it is still not a kugren.

no maciamos new map makes alot more sense it swent through the southern steppe to the balkens to western europe and turkey which is where hittites come from.

also the strong connection with red hair and r1b l11.p310 in western europe points to a european origin not antolian. also since red hair was popular in indo iraniens who migrted from the steppe. also red hair today is 15-20% in udmurts who live in volga Russia a area where yamna culture existed. also udmurts speak a uralic language yamna culture was conquered by uralic cultures 5,000-4,000ybp their remains ahd mainly brown eyes just like udmurt so they most likely mainly decend from very early indo european yamna culture and steppe people spread red hair with indo european languages.

also maciamo oriignally said it went from the steppe to turkey but it first came from the steppe.


1) Leyla teppe in arts , technology, burial rituals is considered as mother of Maykop.
Leyla teppe people moved to Maykop, is a fact.

2) I speak about Tocharian Mummies, they were R1a, but Tocharian language belongs to the Anatolian branch with Hettit. Tocharians were an Anatolian/ minor-Asian south-West of Layla teppe population that moved to Steppe, is a Fact. just search the time.

3) Summerian is an isolated language, probably a language of farmers. yet in IE, even in far enough we see some connectivity, that is either cause due to farming Booming in Neolithic times, either cause IE before the entrance to Maykop pass from fertile crescent, (combine it with Gedrosian component,)

4) Burring the dead with Arms, daily things, in position with crossed hands is a Varna culture, a balkanic one,
the Gold in Tomps starts from Varna/Vinca passes to Anatolia / minor Asia. and passes to steppe.
Before 10 years we all believe that Golden burial masks was an Egyprian custom, and Myceneans took it from them today we know that went from Balkans (Vinca/Varna) to Egypt. is a fact


As you see the only evidence of IE language being a North of Caucasos steppe language is just the arsenic bronze road. is a fact, that passes from Caucas to North of Black sea to Cotofeni Vatin Vucocar.
But the fracture does not quide us in Steppe of Eurasia, but in Maykop Caucasos (Gibutas).
but considering Maykop as a Layla teppe colony we solve all previous questions even the Gedrosian component, in far away IE speaking populations.

your only answer is that if IE speakers were steppe people, they learn all their techonology, rituals, way of life and took Gedrosian comp. from Maykop and spread it to Europe and India, meaning that kurgans is not a IE culture mark, but only Arsenic bronze.


BESIDES IE WERE NOT HUNTERS GATHERRERS, BUT ROAMING STOCK BREEDERS.

A good spark to start thinking is R1a diversities in Aimos peninsula (Balkans),
We all admit that is sink phenomenon,
but if it is not? how many scenarios can be done, and how many collapse?

things are more simple, yet more complicated,
after the discoveries of leyla teppe, varna, and linguistics of tocharian, Kurgan theory is not enough, to find the origin of IE speakers, and Arsenic bronze road is just an indicator of Europe's comquer by IE speakers.

Yet we do not know the language of Vinca or varna speakers, we asume that did not spoke IE by working the changes of IE language, (glottochronology)

Fire Haired
24-07-13, 05:18
1) Leyla teppe in arts , technology, burial rituals is considered as mother of Maykop.
Leyla teppe people moved to Maykop, is a fact.

Leyla teppe culture existed 6,350-6,000 years ago in the central caucus many Russian archilogist have suggested it is ancestral to maykop culture. Indo European like cultures where in the steppes by that time like i said 6,000 year old kurgen in southeast poland.


2) I speak about Tocharian Mummies, they were R1a, but Tocharian language belongs to the Anatolian branch with Hettit. Tocharians were an Anatolian/ minor-Asian population that moved to Steppe, is a Fact. just search the time.

then why where the tarium mummies a mix of white european and east asian. they had no signs of a west asian origin. also the indo european kurgen cultures that migrated to asiai 5,000-4,000ybp which they came from came from Russia not antolia. Sinishta culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture) or Afanasevo culture (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FAfanase vo_culture&ei=O0bvUfyOJ-ONygGSy4GQCQ&usg=AFQjCNEICQOVrlq2nh1JDLI0tUgdsUjIcw)

the full blooded European R1a people from near by south Siberia and from a similar culture had mainly light hair and eyes proving they are not Anatolian also they had specifcalley european mtdna haplogroups like U5 and U2(found in 31,155ybp remains czech republic, U2 found in 37,985ybp remains russia). plus how much r1a is there in Anatolia anyways.

No one knows what language family their in they may be more related to Anatolian languages. also they where known for red hair just like Indo Iranians in Asia like Sycthiens also there where heavy Indo iranien settlements in that area for about 4,000-4,500y years. they where most likely indo Iranian or a brother language to indo iranien.


3) Summerian is an isolated language, probably a language of farmers. yet in IE, even in far enough we see some connectivity, that is either cause due to farming Booming in Neolithic times, either cause IE before the entrance to Maykop pass from fertile crescent, (combine it with Gedrosian component,)

i have heard about this Gedrosian component i would like to learn more. Indo Iranien language and Balto Slavic languages are traced from Yamna culture which could expplain why they have brother R1a subclades also why Cporded ware culture remains had R1a and why early Indo iranien cultures remains had R1a they did not come from antolia or west asia they came from russia.


4) Burring the dead with Arms, daily things, in position with crossed hands is a Varna culture, a balkanic one,
the Gold in Tomps starts from Varna/Vinca passes to Anatolia / minor Asia. and passes to steppe.

As you see the only evidence of IE language being a North of caucas steppe language is just the arsenic bronze road. is a fact, that passes from Caucas to North of Black sea to Cotofeni Vatin Vucocar.
But the fracture does not quide us in Steppe of Eurasia, but in Maykop (Gibutas).
but considering Maykop as a Layla teppe colony we solve all previous questions even the Gedrosian component, in far away IE speaking populations

can u explain more

zanipolo
24-07-13, 07:58
i have heard about this Gedrosian component i would like to learn more. Indo Iranien language and Balto Slavic languages are traced from Yamna culture which could expplain why they have brother R1a subclades also why Cporded ware culture remains had R1a and why early Indo iranien cultures remains had R1a they did not come from antolia or west asia they came from russia.





Gedrosian is eastern Iran ( Persia) on the coast..............part of west-asian admixture

Fire Haired
24-07-13, 08:05
Gedrosian is eastern Iran ( Persia) on the coast..............part of west-asian admixture

how is it connected with indo europeans

Maciamo
24-07-13, 09:59
It's really remarkable that a large amount of Indians are part of such a subbranch.

And it's not remarkable that over 80% of Irish, ancient Britons (before the Germanic migrations), Atlantic French and northeast Spaniards descend from an even deeper branch of R1b ?

Sennevini
25-07-13, 13:31
And it's not remarkable that over 80% of Irish, ancient Britons (before the Germanic migrations), Atlantic French and northeast Spaniards descend from an even deeper branch of R1b ?

That's even more awesome ;p

MOESAN
27-07-13, 16:24
But there's no EVIDENCE for it, that S224 is from Europe at all! Taranis meant L664...

I am tempted to follow the thesis of a central asian origin of the most modern R1a at calcholithical times (at that time, but not the last SNPs born later) and a split among descendants of this stage, a Eastern Europe branch and a South Asian branch, brothers spite of that - the high variance among S-Asiatics R1a could very well be explained (as already said) by demic explosion, so by number and not by old age (the very very downstream position of the majority of S-Asiatics ones points at that too) - very hard to be sure but I think for now that AND geography AND /history linguistic point at this direction...
I would be very glad if someone could tell me the comparative diversity of R1a in Europe and central-south asia locations (Indies-Pakistan-Afghanistan-Kirghizistan etc...) CONCERNING SNPSs and NOT STR VARIANCE ONLY

MOESAN
27-07-13, 16:30
GOGA
by the way, Caucase populations are on the dark side for pigmentation, even if variable (no dominantly fair population, rather dark ones, but as a whole not as dark as some mediterranean populations -
some females exchanges having taken place between neighbouring population at old times, autosomals cannot check to closely the Y-DNA distributions, but autosomals poolings show something as 7-8% of northern europe component in Georgians and 30-34% of northern europe componant among Lezghins, so... (I believe that as a whole, this component is in reality stronger among Georgians: (what sample from where?) -I think first Caucase populations were not that fair pigmented...
Armenians show differences in pigmentation according to region(I have not the DNA distribution corresponding to these regions, helas)

Yetos
27-07-13, 21:14
Leyla teppe people moved to Maykop, is a fact.

Leyla teppe culture existed 6,350-6,000 years ago in the central caucus many Russian archilogist have suggested it is ancestral to maykop culture. Indo European like cultures where in the steppes by that time like i said 6,000 year old kurgen in southeast poland.



then why where the tarium mummies a mix of white european and east asian. they had no signs of a west asian origin. also the indo european kurgen cultures that migrated to asiai 5,000-4,000ybp which they came from came from Russia not antolia. Sinishta culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture) or Afanasevo culture (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FAfanase vo_culture&ei=O0bvUfyOJ-ONygGSy4GQCQ&usg=AFQjCNEICQOVrlq2nh1JDLI0tUgdsUjIcw)

the full blooded European R1a people from near by south Siberia and from a similar culture had mainly light hair and eyes proving they are not Anatolian also they had specifcalley european mtdna haplogroups like U5 and U2(found in 31,155ybp remains czech republic, U2 found in 37,985ybp remains russia). plus how much r1a is there in Anatolia anyways.

No one knows what language family their in they may be more related to Anatolian languages. also they where known for red hair just like Indo Iranians in Asia like Sycthiens also there where heavy Indo iranien settlements in that area for about 4,000-4,500y years. they where most likely indo Iranian or a brother language to indo iranien.



i have heard about this Gedrosian component i would like to learn more. Indo Iranien language and Balto Slavic languages are traced from Yamna culture which could expplain why they have brother R1a subclades also why Cporded ware culture remains had R1a and why early Indo iranien cultures remains had R1a they did not come from antolia or west asia they came from russia.



can u explain more



for first there is a thread in forum,

Gedrosian component is something found in high numbers in most R1b populations with IE origin,
while lucks in R1a population


for second find the Varna Necropolis archaiology founds and results,

Vinca/ Varna is the place that Gold mettalurgy started ever,
Vinca/Varna/Mycenae (pre IE) burial ritual is the first who used golden mask to cover face (Not Egyprtians) and the first who put dead with crosshands and burry him with his arms,

It was from Balkans that went to Egypt and Anatolia, meaning that some rituals in Kurgans in Asia were not steppe culture but transmited by Vinca to Anatolia to Kurgans


to conclude,

Tocharian R1a carriers spoke Anatolian IE (Indo-Hettit theory? not Greco-Aryan, neither Armenian hypothesis)
IE R1b carriers carry also Gedrosian component,
means Yamnaa is not the homeland of IE languages.

in an ancient post before start to think like today,
I said that only by watching the map of IE speakers, and concerning that Tocharians were R1a, what we need R1b?

but after Gedrosian component, seems like R1b's role is important, while we can speak also about J2 HG.

From Ireland to East parts of Iran in IE R1b populations we find gedrosian, but not in r1a.
the role of J2 is under search and discuss.

Just imagine an Irish with R1b to have Gedrosian while a R1a from geographical of Yamnaa to have not,
would you still be so fanatic with Yamnaa as homeland of IE language? when Gedroian component road to Europe passes from Leyla teppe?

Vedun
18-05-14, 15:51
It is clearly visible from genetic maps (i can not post any links yet on this forum), how the western R1b population literally wiped out / stopped spread of Slavic Y patrimonial haplogroup R1a and its subclade R1a1a, which is today mostly frequent among current Russians, Polish, Slovak, Slovene men (Slavs). The same thing happened in Germany under the Teuronic Christian Ordo, which started a genocide against all old Slavs. The only remain, memory from the old past are current Sorbs. The rest of the men were assimilated (Gothicized) into the new community.

Vedun
18-05-14, 15:57
The origin of R1a haplogroup is in current Ukraine, around the Black sea (source: A.A. Klesov), but the origin of the R1b could be in central Africa

h ttp://shrani . si/f/3k/fF/4iK0QLTj/r1b . jpg

srbo
07-07-14, 17:22
Are there any new evidence or papers which supports Maciamos migration map?
Are there any new papers about the splitt of indo-european and indo-aryan branch?

LeBrok
07-07-14, 17:28
Are there any new evidence or papers which supports Maciamos migration map?
Are there any new papers about the splitt of indo-european and indo-aryan branch?
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29705-Corded-Ware-Iranic-Aryan-split-of-IE

oriental
07-07-14, 22:17
http://shrani.si/f/3k/fF/4iK0QLTj/r1b.jpg

Removed the gaps.

Athiudisc
01-08-14, 20:54
...but the origin of the R1b could be in central Africa

This seems highly unlikely, to put it mildly.

Sile
01-08-14, 21:19
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29705-Corded-Ware-Iranic-Aryan-split-of-IE

with the recent Karafet paper ( 2 months ago ) finding the origins of P haplogroup in modern Malaysia
P is the parent of R

And having to waiting nearly 30000 years between P and R

I can only see a logical place for creation of R on the modern borders of nepal, india and bangladesh ........making R a south-asia marker.

from there one main body headed in a NW direction , most likely forming R1a...and the other body heading through Iran to form R1b

since the same paper stated markers H, I, J, L, T and G all basically formed in Iran 30000 years before R formed, the logical first markers into Europe would have been H, I, J, L, T and G.
Since they all formed with 5000 years , I see no reason why they would not have migrated into Europe together

oriental
01-08-14, 23:12
It could have been the Persian Gulf as it was land 30,000 years ago.

The younger sons and daughters would have to move one or two miles out as the oldest son or daughter would inherit the parents' lands or hunting grounds in a hunter-gather culture. So with each generation moving one or two miles out spreading along water routes or sources of water would be the non-violent solution to overcrowding as humans multiplied. So 30,000 years later the group spread 30 to 60,000 mile radius area from the source point (rough idea).

Wrong: Assuming one generation = 15 years as people in those days matured early and died early.

So area spread would be 2 - 4,000 mile radius area.

LeBrok
02-08-14, 00:54
This seems highly unlikely, to put it mildly.
Welcome to Eupedia Athiudisc.

FrankN
03-08-14, 00:33
here is a map this is according to one study to other resources i have seen they all say the oldest are in europe.

http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l625/ft-d/1O-R1a.jpg

This is where the guy got his info from. U can see the R1* is found in Europe and west asia just they found more in west asia. Also R1a1a* which is ancestral to the Indo European branch was only found in Europe. I would not trust these small studies as much they dont have as much info plus they have way more european samples than any other area. U cant ignore that Indo iranien culture originated in the steppes and Idno iranien R1a orignated in the steppes also Indo European culture spread from the steppes.

u could be right about R2a starting in west asia but i still doubt. But Indo European languages did not spread from west asia possibly started there and then spread to the steppes but after that it all came fro the steppes.
If that map is accurate (it doesn't appear to include that many samples), it tells the following story:

R1a* originated (matured?) somewhere around the fertile crescent. It participated in the assembly of the "Neolithic package" in Central Anatolia (9,000 BC) and the subsequent spread of this package along the Mediterranean coasts (from 7,000 BC). It spread further along the Rhone valley into central France, where it participated in the Michelsberger Culture (4,600-3,600 BC) that spread from the Paris Basin via the Rhine to the Weser and Western Bavaria, and from 3,800 BC on colonised the British Isles.
R1a1* originated somewhere NW of the fertile crescent, either on the Armenian Plateau or in areas that are now submerged by the Black Sea. It was constituting (though not the dominating) part of the Neolithic expansion along the Danube that from 6,000 BC on established the LBK in Central Europe. Two LBK samples from the Middle Elbe have been determined as P* (too deteriorated for further breakdown). From 4,100 BC, they participated in colonialisation of the Lower Elbe and Southern Scandinavia (Funnelbeaker culture). Another part spread around the Northern Black Sea, participated in the Cucuteni, Maykop and Yamna cultures and ultimately re-joined the distant LBK cousins north-west of the Carpathians (Globular Amphora Culture, from 3,100 BC). Celtic and East Germanic migrations then spread them further into France, Northern Italy and Northern Spain.
R1a1a* originated near the old LBK heartland on the Central Danube (Vienna-Budapest) and took part in colonising the Alps (Mondsee Culture 3,900 BC, Baden Culture from 3,600 BC). They formed part of the Urnfield, Hallstatt and La Tene Cultures; Celtc migrations brought them to Gaul, Celtiberia, Britain, Northern Italy and Northern Greece.

I have no idea whether that story fits to TMRA dates - if not, feel free to correct me.



Burial mounds are complex structures with internal chambers. Within the burial chamber at the heart of the kurgan, elite individuals were buried with grave goods and sacrificial offerings, sometimes including horses and chariots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot). Kurgans were used in the Ukrainian and Russian Steppes but spread into eastern, central, and northern Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe) in the 3rd millennium BC.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/LYablonskyFilipovkaKurganR1.jpg/300px-LYablonskyFilipovkaKurganR1.jpg

That view is outdated. Recent Danish and German excavations have re-dated (pre-)Funnelbeaker Kurgan type burial mounds (wooden burial chambers, individual burials of males, together with stone axes and arrowheads) to the early 5th millennium BC. They spread from the Danish isles southward, by some 100-150 km/ century. Below is the Baalberge burial mound, which lent its name to the central TBK Baalberge Culture (3,800-3,100 BC) around the Elbe north of the Harz mountains.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Schneiderberg_Baalberge_10.JPG/320px-Schneiderberg_Baalberge_10.JPG5

The first Central Euopean finds of domesticated horses and wagon burials (ox-drawn) date to the Salzmünde Culture (3,300-3,100 BC) on the Middle Elbe. The burial context (earth pits filled with large numbers of ceramic sherds) is similar to the contemporary Baden culture on the central Danube. The Salzmünde Culture (Horse & cart) was violently destroyed by the Baalberge Culture (Kurgans). Subsequently, a mix of various burial styles emerged in the Elbe-Saale region that included "French-style" elongated stone cists, "Totenhütten" (dead huts) with wooded or slate-covered roofs, earth graves, urnfields, and re-cycling of older TBK Dolmen.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/Gro%C3%9Fsteingrab_Langeneichst%C3%A4dt_05.JPG/320px-Gro%C3%9Fsteingrab_Langeneichst%C3%A4dt_05.JPG http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/Megawal45.jpg/320px-Megawal45.jpg
Burial mounds reappear in Eastern Central Europe with the Corded Ware (2,800-2,200 BC). They have parallels, but also significant differences to Pontic Kurgans:

No wagons / traction animals,
Only individuals, no "chief with subordinates"
Female graves equally represented (with jewellery & pottery)
W-E orientation of the corpses, instead of N-S orientation as in Eastern Europe.

There may have been some cultural exchange with the Steppes, but significant population turnover is unlikely for the a/m differences, and also as CV continued to use many of the older grave sites described above.

Goga
03-08-14, 03:22
Most probably it went like that: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oibl2LJE9p0/UzcexFkeZ0I/AAAAAAAACd0/duzTuAcI-P4/s1600/R1a+spread.jpeg http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.tr/2014/03/y-dna-r1a-spread-from-iran.html

LeBrok
04-08-14, 08:30
Most probably it went like that: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oibl2LJE9p0/UzcexFkeZ0I/AAAAAAAACd0/duzTuAcI-P4/s1600/R1a+spread.jpeg http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.tr/2014/03/y-dna-r1a-spread-from-iran.html
How does this map agrees with Mal'ta boy from Siberia who was R? Actually this is the only pure R ever found from ancient times and yet this map claims it started in India.

Goga
04-08-14, 10:58
We're talking about R1a1a here, and not about R*, right? And how many ancient samples were researched in India/Pakistan to come to decisive conclusions? All we know for sure is that R* is not from Europe, where they found very different ancient Y-DNA. Also, as we speak here about R1a, the oldest types of R1a* has been found in West Asia.

nr9
03-09-14, 23:42
I believe the maps will be updated with time because new Y-DNA samples from the archeological works will make everything more clear.

Tomenable
07-09-14, 15:43
Interesting thanks.

/Serg/
09-03-18, 02:01
I would like to add something about milk lactation: R1A here in Russia can drink fresh milk and yesterday's milk, a risky adventure not available for those of Russians, who has U, I, G or J2 haplogroup.

I often drink a morning or yesterday's milk byuing it from farmers and immediately return the bottle to them.

The girl on the picture is my sister, Anne, and I remember the time in a village, when she drank a fresh 10-minute milk from a cup of an iron water-can, it was in august. Three days a week.

According to an article in "Science and Life", Dnieper-Donets and Khvalynsk cultures began to move to the North when Black Sea joined with Mediterranean Sea, https://www.nkj.ru/archive/articles/6957/ and not only after but because of this event.

"Science and Life" is a peer-reviewed journal. You can use Google Translator to read the article from our archaeologists.

983298339834https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Early_Middle_Neolithic_map.png

qtr
13-03-18, 14:51
We're talking about R1a1a here, and not about R*, right? And how many ancient samples were researched in India/Pakistan to come to decisive conclusions? All we know for sure is that R* is not from Europe, where they found very different ancient Y-DNA. Also, as we speak here about R1a, the oldest types of R1a* has been found in West Asia.

Not true. At least, according to this source http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/the-beast-among-y-haplogroups.html
Locations are in Europe - in Black Sea steppe zone.
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SF74a3xkvg4/WdDa0l5addI/AAAAAAAAGH0/BM8SEreRWfMF_tpH2pfEpd20-68zOE90gCLcBGAs/s1600/R1a-M417_The_Beast.png

Also it seems, that early R1a1 were already present in Northern part of Europe, before they spread to India and Iran, so any maps, that show Iran or anything else that has anything as a source to R1a prior Z-93 are discardable.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/late-pie-ground-zero-now-obvious.html