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peitho
28-07-13, 18:56
I am a student from South Germany. We are working on a European Citizen's Initiative for wich we need 7 people from 7 different European countries!
We urge the European Commission for the personal freedom and privacy of citizens to use and to oppose spying programs such as Prism, Tempora and others. The comprehensive and boundless monitoring of international traffic by domestic and foreign intelligence agencies not only violates our interest in privacy but also the essential principles of a liberal democracy.
The individual should develop freely and be able to express his or her opinion without any restrictions, without being exposed to repressive measures.
By storing the data and creating personal profiles, the foundation is laid for such measures.
Also, the comprehensive monitoring itself is a tremendous restriction of personal freedom, as every citizen must now be aware of give an opinion because he doesn’t only communicates it to his opponent, but also to the state. By storage, the fear that long-forgotten and ill-considered statements are used for one’s disadvantage gets presently.

We call for:
- Deletion of the already collected Data.
- general suspicion must be prevented.
-citizens who are being monitored should be informed.
- European companies must be protected against spying.


If you are interested in taking part, please feel free to write me here!

If you are not - what do you think about the latest monitoring scandals? Is it okay for the NSA to read our Emails? Is it okay that our own government doesn't protect us?


Greetings

LeBrok
28-07-13, 21:05
I am a student from South Germany. We are working on a European Citizen's Initiative for wich we need 7 people from 7 different European countries!
We urge the European Commission for the personal freedom and privacy of citizens to use and to oppose spying programs such as Prism, Tempora and others. The comprehensive and boundless monitoring of international traffic by domestic and foreign intelligence agencies not only violates our interest in privacy but also the essential principles of a liberal democracy.
The individual should develop freely and be able to express his or her opinion without any restrictions, without being exposed to repressive measures.
By storing the data and creating personal profiles, the foundation is laid for such measures.
Also, the comprehensive monitoring itself is a tremendous restriction of personal freedom, as every citizen must now be aware of give an opinion because he doesn’t only communicates it to his opponent, but also to the state. By storage, the fear that long-forgotten and ill-considered statements are used for one’s disadvantage gets presently.

We call for:
- Deletion of the already collected Data.
- general suspicion must be prevented.
-citizens who are being monitored should be informed.
- European companies must be protected against spying.


If you are interested in taking part, please feel free to write me here!

If you are not - what do you think about the latest monitoring scandals? Is it okay for the NSA to read our Emails? Is it okay that our own government doesn't protect us?


Greetings

I'm for all the freedoms, but till we live in perfect society or solitary, there always be restrictions to once freedoms and privacy. Just to keep people from killing each other.
Your ideas of freedom are pretty much utopien in todays world. Also human social nature is in opposition to your privacy. Young generation exposes themselves almost completely and voluntarily on Facebook. It is like in small village when everybody knows what anyone did.

Having said that, I'll find your initiative useful to swing the pendulum from Big Brother setting towards privacy, to restore some sort of balance. Governments and companies should know that we are not blind lambs led for a sloughter.


Is it okay for the NSA to read our Emails? Is it okay that our own government doesn't protect us? Well, that's how government protects us. Total paradox.

Keep in mind that there is no way government personnel can read even 0.0000001% of our daily correspondence. Only computers read, and only when suspect someone of antigovernment, the email is flagged for further investigation by people.
So if you're some sort of anarchist you might be on a list already. ;)

Yetos
28-07-13, 21:15
I'm for all the freedoms, but till we live in perfect society or solitary, there always be restrictions to once freedoms and privacy.
Your ideas of freedom are pretty much utopien in todays world. Also human social nature is in opposition to your privacy. Young generation exposes themselves almost completely and voluntarily on Facebook. It is like in small village when everybody knows what anyone did.

Having said that, I'll find your initiative useful to swing the pendulum from Big Brother setting towards privacy, to restore some sort of balance. Governments and companies should know that we are not blind lambs led for a sloughter.

Well, that's how government protects us. Total paradox.

Keep in mind that there is no way government personnel can read even 0.0000001% of our daily correspondence. Only computers read, and only when suspect someone of antigovernment, the email is flagged for further investigation by people.
So if you're some sort of anarchist you might be on a list already. ;)

No matter how many times we argue, debate and disscuss, never understand you,

in Greece we use a moto,

WHO WILL PROTECT US? FROM OUR PROTECTORS.

when you realize that,
then you have 2 choices.

either to be a protector.
either to organise and watch protectors when they overpass our rights.

Choose side, life is short



the video is a Mexican police officer (protector)
watch what he is holding in left hand.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ew16yHQsNPo


And I ask again,

who is protecting us from our protectors?

LeBrok
28-07-13, 21:23
No matter how many times we argue, debate and disscuss, never understand you,

in Greece we use a moto,

WHO WILL PROTECT US? FROM OUR PROTECTORS.

when you realize that,
then you have 2 choices.

either to be a protector.
either to organise and watch protectors when they overpass our rights.

Choose side, life is short



the video is a Mexican police officer (protector)
watch what he is holding in left hand.


That's because you have Greek mentality. Every Greek says we, and the rest of society or government is them.
In Canada we protect us.

Yetos
28-07-13, 21:45
That's because you have Greek mentality. Every Greek says we, and the rest of society or government is them.
In Canada we protect us.

Thank you you just answer my question, and certify my believes,

so WE must protect our shelves from THEM.

peitho
28-07-13, 22:05
Well, that's how government protects us.

You cant argue like that. This is only what government tells you.

Fact is, that our government is not only collecting our data but they also analyse it and create profiles.
They know who your friends are, they know what movies you like, they know that you search in google, they know all you passwords, your bankaccount - almost everything.
Well, you could say "its your own problem if you share all that data" but thats not true. It's clearly against right to obtain all our data.

Behavior and Personality-Profiles are a huge threat to liberty and democracy. What if your next government is repressive? What if they oppress people of a special policical party or ethnology?
Then they can use all that obtained data against you.

Even before second Worldwar Holland registered all of his citizens including informations like Ethnology in a huge database.
At the end of Worldwar two 73% of Hollands jews were dead.
In Frace it were only 25%.

Collecting and analysing Data is the first step to repressive Regime.

LeBrok
28-07-13, 23:20
You cant argue like that. This is only what government tells you.
Yes I can, because governments in democratic countries and their representatives were elected by majority of people. Therefore if government colects data on citizens it is by agreement of most citizens.
Collecting data is nothing new, government always collected date on where we live, work, how much we made, how much taxes we paid, family and marital status, what schools you finished, where you went abroad, your phone number, your religion. Collecting internet data is something new though and we'll soon learn how to set balance in this department. But generally speaking we already agreed, even deemed it necessary to collect a lot of data about ourselves.
Actually I can't wait for a day when I go to the store and computer recognizes me, calculates my grocery on a fly and charges my account, without stopping at cashier. All I would need to do is to say yes to computer on exit.
I don't give a squat if government knows how much potatoes I bough, I honestly nobody in government cares about that either, unless I bought 2 tons of potassium and amonium for "my garden".


Fact is, that our government is not only collecting our data but they also analyse it and create profiles.
They know who your friends are, they know what movies you like, they know that you search in google, they know all you passwords,
I don't think they do. Do you have any proof?



your bankaccount - almost everything. They always knew my accounts for tax purposes. How otherwise government can do the tax audit properly? Are you afraid of your secret account in Switzerland? or perhaps you're too young to pay taxes?
It might be true in Greece, that's why barely anyone paid taxes.


Well, you could say "its your own problem if you share all that data" but thats not true. It's clearly against right to obtain all our data. Which human or constitutional rights are you referring to?


Behavior and Personality-Profiles are a huge threat to liberty and democracy. It is also true that transparency, order, justice, information and keeping terrorists away helps democracy and liberty a lot. All we need is healthy balance.

What if your next government is repressive? What if they oppress people of a special policical party or ethnology?
Then they can use all that obtained data against you.In case of tyranny and dictatorship of any sort they will introduce strict surveillance over every citizen regardless if we have it in place already or not. But if we have our democratic governments doing some surveillance it is only used against terrorism, psychopaths and pedofiles. It is a tool in our hands and so far we use it smart for benefit of societies.
We never going to get rid of it, we just need to set guidelines for it. That's yet to be done.


Even before second Worldwar Holland registered all of his citizens including informations like Ethnology in a huge database.
At the end of Worldwar two 73% of Hollands jews were dead.
In Frace it were only 25%.[/QUOTE]In Poland even without huge database, 95% of Jews were gone.


Collecting and analysing Data is the first step to repressive Regime.Absolutely not, it is first step for organized society to protect itself. There is not even one example from modern times to prove your point. On other hand, we know it was already useful in capturing terrorists and foiling terrorist actions in America and in Europe.

Let's look at China. Government is not democratic and repressive. They censor many parts of internet, and they collect even more data, especially on "difficult" citizens. But even there in China there is rarely (for that populous country) a case of arresting dissidents. The rest of society are very free to criticize government. My point is that having huge database as chinese have it doesn't lead to mass arrests, sort of North Korea style.

Another point that I would like to make, thanks to good economies of the west our countries are very peaceful and citizens are content. There is no need for tyranny and control to keep people in check, therefore there will be no need for using data against normal citizens in the west. This need exists only in N Korea and Cuba to keep poor unhappy people in check.
Even China, when got richer, liberalized control over population a lot, and can take critique and antigovernment jokes these days.

I conclude that your points against government and its control are vastly exaggerated.

LeBrok
28-07-13, 23:22
Thank you you just answer my question, and certify my believes,

so WE must protect our shelves from THEM.
No I didn't. I said you think and feel this way. I never said that they are against you.

Yetos
29-07-13, 00:45
No I didn't. I said you think and feel this way. I never said that they are against you.

http://www.maximumpc.com/files/u46173/snowden.jpg


He prove it.

nordicwarrior
29-07-13, 00:47
Snowden is not only a whistleblower, he's a hero. Put me on all the no-fly lists you want, I don't kowtow to any bullies whether individual, business, or big government. Exercise freedom of speech or be prepared to lose it.

nordicwarrior
29-07-13, 00:56
LeBrok, I'm going to give you some advice although you probably won't heed it. In the West, sometimes the situation requires that you speak truth to power. Unless you are in the top 1% (really the top .01%) then you don't have to pay attention. But if you're not, please know that the elites don't respect yes men, only those that publicly call them out on their nonsense. Quit worrying about securing a spot higher on the pyramid and worry about being a decent, fair, and kind human-being.

ElHorsto
29-07-13, 01:42
I guess US and UK will be very successful within the coming free trade zone and in general by knowing so many confidential data.

LeBrok
29-07-13, 02:17
Snowden is not only a whistleblower, he's a hero. Put me on all the no-fly lists you want, I don't kowtow to any bullies whether individual, business, or big government. Exercise freedom of speech or be prepared to lose it.
Please tell us what freedoms you recently lost in your country. With your anti establishment attitude you should have been first on the list for years. Once we on a subject, you can also tell us what freedoms, if not you personally, others gained. Smoking marihuana, gay marriage rings the bell?

LeBrok
29-07-13, 02:25
LeBrok, I'm going to give you some advice although you probably won't heed it. In the West, sometimes the situation requires that you speak truth to power. I always did. I came here from country where freedom of speech was broken every, prosecuted, jailed and replaced with propaganda. I know how it looks, smells and feels. You never experienced it. Let me be the sensor and the judge. I'll let you know when you need to worry about this in USA.

LeBrok
29-07-13, 02:54
I realize that US government and secret services are in state of paranoia. They are overdoing many things just to be sure they don't miss terrorism and won't be nailed to the cross if something happens. And yet, there is no need to worry of losing any freedoms for US citizens, unless they plan terror actions, mass shooting, drug smuggling, or other major catastrophes.
The question is why wouldn't we allow automatic computer bots to check the internet to keep us safe from bad guys?
With billions of emails every day, billions twitters and Facebooks, billions phone calls, billions posted messages, all together around 100 billion a day! Assuming that there is probably around 10 thousand agents checking this stuff out that's 10 million communicates to check per agent daily. It's obvious that without internet bots they would never catch a terrorist in this jungle.
Even with all the bots, government agents can only concentrate on biggest terror cases and giant villains.
And honestly, who the heck would care what Nordicquarrerel thinks about government. Unless you and your body plans to buy 2 tons of ammonium nitrate. Now this might be flagged by bots on the net, lol.

LeBrok
29-07-13, 02:59
He prove it.
Not it, he proved that they protect me from terrorists. There was no major terrorist attack in years in America and Europe, no electric grid sabotage or major company. I guess they are doing their job well, and I still have all my freedoms!
It is possible that without NSA actions we might be sitting for a week in darkness trying to restart electric grids in america, or get airplanes flying. Without defences it is easy to cripple all modern countries crashing all the computers with viruses and hacking.

LeBrok
29-07-13, 03:10
the video is a Mexican police officer (protector)
watch what he is holding in left hand.


And I ask again,

who is protecting us from our protectors?

Are you for child labour Yetos? Perhaps you should be criticizing his father or pimp, because he should be in school or playing with kids!

Yetos
29-07-13, 08:24
Are you for child labour Yetos? Perhaps you should be criticizing his father or pimp, because he should be in school or playing with kids!


You learn to meander well.

but your manoeuvre is not helping you,

In the video the protector takes 'free' cigaretes from a 10 years old child. for not taking it to prison and then forced him to destroy his merchandise cause he is not having a lisence,

the boy is an orphan, that moved from mountains to Mexico city, and lives with his aunt.

I do not know in Canada where you live, if something like that is 'child labor' but in Video I see how the protector works.
I am certain that if you look around you, even in Canadian paradise where you say you live ,you will see many cases.

so indeed we need to organise the social WE against their fascistic THEM.

we vote someone to govern us under the laws of justice, and not under the laws of 'my will'

and in case o Snowden, since they 'hear' and 'know' all about you, then in one day they can destroy you.

with the excuse that they protect you, THEY BECOME THE TERROR OF MODERN WORLD.

search an ex-prime minister in Greece and Goldman Sachs economic killer,
and then you realize how 'powerull' they are.


and I ask you,
what if tomorrow, a big shark, buys the data from the protector, and destroy you, cause your free will and hope and bussinnes devlopent is dangerous for him?
then what?

FREE WORLD IS NOT 'eat burgers' and 'buy mobile phones',

and Snowden prove that even your Canada is not Free,


to be more specific

DO YOU AGREE WITH STALIN'S METHODS?
DO YOU AGREE WITH McCARTHY'S METHODS?

I am sure that you do not agree with first,
I ask you, do you agree with second?


They are the same

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4524555883120149&pid=15.1&H=160&W=135

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4569751840425065&pid=15.1&H=160&W=120

LeBrok
29-07-13, 08:42
and in case o Snowden, since they 'hear' and 'know' all about you, then in one day they can destroy you.

Why would they want to destroy me?!

Yetos
29-07-13, 08:54
I realize that US government and secret services are in state of paranoia. They are overdoing many things just to be sure they don't miss terrorism and won't be nailed to the cross if something happens. And yet, there is no need to worry of losing any freedoms for US citizens, unless they plan terror actions, mass shooting, drug smuggling, or other major catastrophes.
The question is why wouldn't we allow automatic computer bots to check the internet to keep us safe from bad guys?
With billions of emails every day, billions twitters and Facebooks, billions phone calls, billions posted messages, all together around 100 billion a day! Assuming that there is probably around 10 thousand agents checking this stuff out that's 10 million communicates to check per agent daily. It's obvious that without internet bots they would never catch a terrorist in this jungle.
Even with all the bots, government agents can only concentrate on biggest terror cases and giant villains.
And honestly, who the heck would care what Nordicquarrerel thinks about government. Unless you and your body plans to buy 2 tons of ammonium nitrate. Now this might be flagged by bots on the net, lol.

in Greece a farmer can buy dozens of tones of ammonium nitrate NH4NO2 for fields, each year.
Is he a terrorist?


in America you can accuse someone as terrorist for few kilos of fertile addings,
but everybody carries a weapon.
in Europe, a weapon is a mark of killer but not ammonium nitrate.

Yetos
29-07-13, 09:02
Why would they want to destroy me?!

you can find many reasons,


But why you are not answering about McCarthy?
are you afraid of net bots?

can tell us your opinion about?

peitho
29-07-13, 11:29
Why would they want to destroy me?!

That is exactly the point i wanted to show you. Maybe at this point of time they dont want to destroy you, but all the collected and analysed data of you could be used against you in the future. Especially political groups can be victims of this surveillance. 50 years ago the government had no chance to get information about the political opinion of nearly every citizen. Today they have it. Maybe they dont use it at this point of time, but can you tell the future?

Security through surveillance is not a strong argument. Through 100% Surveillance you would almost get 100% Security (like when every person would be watched by a governments agent) but its about the balance. You simply cant collect all data about every person without an suspicion. Thats why in most countrys of the world (not the USA since the patriot act) telefon surveillance has to be granted by a judge in every single case.

And to state it out again - This complete and unlimited surveillance is clearly against the right. I know you guys overseas have traded in most civil rights after 9/11 for "Security". But here in the European Union there is even a Fundamental Right in Datasecurity (means noone is allowed to obtain all your data without permission) in Artikel 16 AEUV. And as a law student i can tell you in Germany this kind of surveillance breaks not only this law.
- First of all its against our first fundamental right, the "human dignity" - means, that no person can be handled as an objekt, but this is what they are doing, when they collect all your data and store it (this is what our highest court says).
- Second its against our fundamental right of "free expression". Maybe you this may sound paradox to you guys overseas, but if all your data gets collected and all your political statements you make online get collected many people are scared to even make political statements (again this is exactly what our highest court states out).

The claim is to only monitor people who are suspicious in some way. There can be no general suspicion.
Yes and even without this kind of total surveillance terror acts have been prevented in the past. Even 9/11 could have been prevented - its clear that your secret services had hints about it.

In the last 10 years the died more people of getting slayn by downfalling televisions then by terrorists, but yes "Terrorism" is the biggest danger of human history. (Ask your government).

Just create fear and all the people will trade in their fundamental rights for "security".
This is the beginning my friend.

This Surveillance is not comparative

ElHorsto
29-07-13, 14:02
question is why wouldn't we allow automatic computer bots to check the internet to keep us safe from bad guys?
With billions of emails every day, billions twitters and Facebooks, billions phone calls, billions posted messages, all together around 100 billion a day! Assuming that there is probably around 10 thousand agents checking this stuff out that's 10 million communicates to check per agent daily. It's obvious that without internet bots they would never catch a terrorist in this jungle.


That's probably because catching tourists is not the actual goal but rather categorization of all humans into asset values, where evaluation is a more long-term task. To support this new industry the german government (and many others except France) introduced electronic ID-cards in 2008. Very few people truly understand what is already possible. Read about Big Data (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_data). The actual news is that silicon valley companies like google (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-Q-Tel) were lying.

nordicwarrior
29-07-13, 14:42
That is exactly the point i wanted to show you. Maybe at this point of time they dont want to destroy you, but all the collected and analysed data of you could be used against you in the future. Especially political groups can be victims of this surveillance. 50 years ago the government had no chance to get information about the political opinion of nearly every citizen. Today they have it. Maybe they dont use it at this point of time, but can you tell the future?... EXACTLY. Now LeBrok, I wasn't comfortable bringing it up but since you did first-- I will respond. We are all products of our varying environments to some degree. Your native country had serious issues of governmental abuses to be sure, however I think you are now overacting in the opposite direction. You think that by bowing deeply to your governmental agencies you will gain points or at least be left alone. Sorry to say, this isn't how it works. I am a product of what used to be the "most free" nation on the planet. It no longer is and hasn't been for some time. I can tell you what freedom looks like, and this ain't it.

nordicwarrior
29-07-13, 14:47
And you asked what freedoms have been lost. I look to the U.S. Constitution and our Bill of Rights for guidance here. I deal in rights rather than freedoms because a right is more concrete. Snowden proved a violation of probably the most basic right American citizens once had... the Right to Privacy. If you can't see this, I not sure you will understand anything else I say.

ElHorsto
29-07-13, 16:03
Yes I can, because governments in democratic countries and their representatives were elected by majority of people. Therefore if government colects data on citizens it is by agreement of most citizens.


Sorry LeBrok, but it might be an illusion:

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/07/money-nsa-vote/

"Lawmakers Who Upheld NSA Phone Spying Received Double the Defense Industry Cash"

But I admit, the US Lawmakers are probably more expensive than our EU lawmakers.

peitho
29-07-13, 16:28
So please if anyone here feels the same and lives an another EU-Country PM me so we can get this thing started!

We still need 5 people from different EU Countrys

LeBrok
29-07-13, 17:28
So please if anyone here feels the same and lives an another EU-Country PM me so we can get this thing started!

We still need 5 people from different EU Countrys
But it means you will collect data on them!
Watch out guys, they might be from government or business, and will destroy you! The FBI is fishing.

LeBrok
29-07-13, 17:32
That's probably because catching tourists is not the actual goal but rather categorization of all humans into asset values, where evaluation is a more long-term task. To support this new industry the german government (and many others except France) introduced electronic ID-cards in 2008. Very few people truly understand what is already possible. Read about Big Data (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_data). The actual news is that silicon valley companies like google (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-Q-Tel) were lying.
I agree, they collect and don't say anything because people are uneasy about this or wouldn't agree if they new.
I'm just not convinced that there will be a negative consequence for me from data collection.

LeBrok
29-07-13, 17:34
you can find many reasons,

I just want one reason why they want to destroy me.

peitho
29-07-13, 18:39
But it means you will collect data on them!
Watch out guys, they might be from government or business, and will destroy you! The FBI is fishing.

Is this the way you lead a discussion?


I just want one reason why they want to destroy me.

I tell you again: Ethnology, Political Opinions,
Political Statements,
Personal Relations or any other connections to People with certain political opinions,
Personal Relations or any other connections to People with personal relations or any other connections to People with special political opinions.

Let me add: Taking part on Demonstrations aginst the Government, releasing Press-articles against the Government, Expressing your personal opinion.

And then they go back in time and they will find something that can harm you.

Or are you the sort of guy "who has nothing to hide"?
Its like in the Bible where Jesus says "the one of you who is without sin should throw the first stone".
Everyone has something to hide and everyone has something that can be used against him. And there will always be people that make the government angry.

But maybe are you just too boring, so that Government will never want to harm you in any case.
No political opinion or even a "fallower" - YES, that are the people your government loves.

hope
29-07-13, 18:51
And then they go back in time and they will find something that can harm you.
Why don`t they just make something up? It would be cheaper and less time consuming.

peitho
29-07-13, 18:59
Why don`t they just make something up? It would be cheaper and less time consuming.

No it isn't... You already have all this data collected which they use to classify people.
Im not telling you, that our governments is already using this data.
What i say is that all this data is a huge lure for the abuse of power in the future.

Its not a secret that they already put journalists and p.e. nature activists on "Risk-lists"...

hope
29-07-13, 19:56
No it isn't... You already have all this data collected which they use to classify people.
Im not telling you, that our governments is already using this data.
What i say is that all this data is a huge lure for the abuse of power in the future.

Its not a secret that they already put journalists and p.e. nature activists on "Risk-lists"...

I agree with you, they do already have a lot of data. This type of thing has probably been going on for a while, it is not new I think. The ways in which it is obtained, due to our modern technology, may be new, but the practice is I feel, not.
May I ask a straight question, and excuse me if it sounds naive, perhaps I am looking at this in a skewif way, but what exactly do you, in all reality, think they intend to do with this information?
As you say, you are not saying your government is using this information,. If we agree it is nothing new in itself, then why might we suppose they will ever use it?


Also, welcome to Eupedia.

ElHorsto
29-07-13, 20:16
............

Yetos
29-07-13, 20:43
I just want one reason why they want to destroy me.

why in your ex-country they forbid you free speach?


for the same reason.

in Poland few decades before, free speach and some unions like solidarity were forbiden. why?

why in Poland they wanted to destroy you?

give us a reason?

the same reason is also in the other side.

McCarthism is not forbiding, is searching for 'witches'

peitho
29-07-13, 20:49
I agree with you, they do already have a lot of data. This type of thing has probably been going on for a while, it is not new I think. The ways in which it is obtained, due to our modern technology, may be new, but the practice is I feel, not.
May I ask a straight question, and excuse me if it sounds naive, perhaps I am looking at this in a skewif way, but what exactly do you, in all reality, think they intend to do with this information?
As you say, you are not saying your government is using this information,. If we agree it is nothing new in itself, then why might we suppose they will ever use it?


Also, welcome to Eupedia.

You are right, governments were always busy obtaining data. Not only because data means power but also order.
At the moment they really may use the data for "our security" but its really dangerous for us that they have this data.
You know its in the human nature to do everything what is possible.
Its like nuclear power - it can be good for creating electricity but it was always clear that humans will use this technology to harm each other.
The data may be the key to security but it is also the key to oppression.
Who tells you that there wont be a Regime which uses the data against you?

You can see it mathematical: There is a certain likelihood that a regime will use this data for oppression in the future. This likelihood may be small at the moment, but over a longer time it will get bigger. And if you set the time=infinite the likelihood is 100%.

Im not against collecting data, im not against surveillance.
Im only against a general suspicion of every citizen. As is stated out before, this is not comparative

Thank you for welcoming me to the Eupedia ; )

LeBrok
30-07-13, 02:00
Why don`t they just make something up? It would be cheaper and less time consuming.
What a brilliant response hope! That's exactly what happened during Stalinism. Most people who died were good citizens and many even dedicated communists.

I don't think we are going to escape data collecting or rampant surveillance. The only hope for us is to make sure we select good leaders who secure our freedoms and rights. Otherwise we are doomed.

LeBrok
30-07-13, 02:15
why in your ex-country they forbid you free speach?


for the same reason.

I know why communist regime wanted to destroy me. But we live in western capitalist world now, you and I.
Government and big business likes what I say, right?
So again, what is the reason they will destroy me?

nordicwarrior
30-07-13, 02:42
Nobody is going to destroy you anytime soon Lebrok. Big government/corporate elites may require you to serve them pitchers of lemonade or mow their enormous lawns (or more likely have your children fight their silly wars), but they won't come after you. You speak like someone who is intent not only staying low on the radar, but really almost like an eager servant. So they won't be coming after you. Not on this round anyway. :)

LeBrok
30-07-13, 03:21
You are right, governments were always busy obtaining data. Not only because data means power but also order.
At the moment they really may use the data for "our security" but its really dangerous for us that they have this data.
It's dangerous if they do and dangerous if they don't.
Big new today. 105 kids rescued from prostitution in US today, thanks to FBI.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/fbi-local-authorities-free-105-child-prostitutes-article-1.1411601
Do you think it would be possible without data collection?



You know its in the human nature to do everything what is possible. We also have huge inclination to do the impossible. People fly now, go to moon, people record everything with their phones, and maybe in future people will make peace on Earth. I think it is getting better than used to be, even much better. There is no international war right now. Not many ongoing revolutions, civil wars, if any. Also there are fewer dictators these days when compared to 20 years ago, which wasn't a long time. If this trend continue, one more generation or two and it might be really peaceful.


Its like nuclear power - it can be good for creating electricity but it was always clear that humans will use this technology to harm each other. Great analogy. Do you think we should give up nuclear power, cars, knifes because they can potentially harm people in the future?


The data may be the key to security but it is also the key to oppression.
Who tells you that there wont be a Regime which uses the data against you?
Absolutely right. Our priority should be to make sure our political and judicial system is in good health. That on top of these vital systems are the smartest and most honest people of us all. This will take care of the rest of problems.
Because if there is dictatorship, no amount of data or lack of it is going to make any difference. They will invent data like Stalin, or Khmer Rouge, or they will quickly implement system (E.German Stasi), very invasive system, and nobody won't dare to say anything against.


You can see it mathematical: There is a certain likelihood that a regime will use this data for oppression in the future. This likelihood may be small at the moment, but over a longer time it will get bigger. And if you set the time=infinite the likelihood is 100%. Not really. Dictatorships only exist in countries stricken by poverty and big political mess. As long as west is prosperous there will be no dictatorship and controlling of society. Look at china opening and becoming more liberal together with economic growth. I predict that in 10 years comunist of china will give up the power.


Im not against collecting data, im not against surveillance.
Im only against a general suspicion of every citizen. As is stated out before, this is not comparative That's why I think your position is overblown, but it's my point, I was always optimistic. :)
Having said that I believe there might be something good coming from your initiative. Maybe it is time to swing pendulum the other way.


But maybe are you just too boring, so that Government will never want to harm you in any case.
No political opinion or even a "fallower" - YES, that are the people your government loves

You almost guest well. I escaped from dictatorship country some time ago. I've chosen Canada as I fit this society very well. Here I don't need to fight for freedom of speech, democracy or good economic system. I guess, here I'm boring, lol.
But my history gives me a unique position, not to say privileged, to talk about freedoms or lack of them. I experienced both first hand.

On ending note, I wish you luck with your venture, although no amount of data or destroying it will protect us from dictatorship. Your initiative might save few soles, granted, or give people some privacy. Rather, I would love to see initiative to update our "ancient" political partizan system to implement new changes. Changes that will make sure that we always pick the smartest and most honest people to governments. That we are always led by best talent available. This and only this will assure our freedoms and prosperity.
You can call it utopian view, but think how many "impossible" things humankind achieved already.

LeBrok
30-07-13, 03:36
Nobody is going to destroy you anytime soon Lebrok. Big government/corporate elites may require you to serve them pitchers of lemonade or mow their enormous lawns (or more likely have your children fight their silly wars), but they won't come after you. You speak like someone who is intent not only staying low on the radar, but really almost like an eager servant. So they won't be coming after you. Not on this round anyway. :)
Yes they love me for my big loans. I was only arguing with Yetos against his generalizations and throwing everybody to the same bag.

PS. But I'm also grateful for these loans (available capital) to grow business and having a nice house. I like this system. It just needs to be polished from time to time, and call exterminator to remove really greedy elements. But these usually fall off by themselves, as self destructive.

nordicwarrior
30-07-13, 04:38
I can't think of a reason why "they" would love me, but I figure they respect me (grudgingly) for my big mouth. But you're correct, available capital/credit is an incredibly valuable tool for a successful nation. Canada has faired well during this downturn because of it's abundant natural resources and by having an commodity based economy. Not so much in the U.S though. Our greedy hogs at the top ate too much, then took a collective poop into the remaining financial pie. You can get available credit here, but at rates that qualify as usury.

Yetos
30-07-13, 06:59
I know why communist regime wanted to destroy me. But we live in western capitalist world now, you and I.
Government and big business likes what I say, right?
So again, what is the reason they will destroy me?


for the same reason.

told you.

the difference in thinking is big,

modern Europe was build in the principals of Free speech, starting from 1400 till today.

if no free speach, still Bishops and knights rule the people.
Gun time in Europe is over much before WW1,

In America every body has a gun, to expess his freedom.

the difference in Thinking is obvious,

ElHorsto
30-07-13, 09:38
Why don`t they just make something up? It would be cheaper and less time consuming.

The question makes no sense at all. Of course they would need the real data first to know whom to address at all. What's the point of making up something against a random person?

ElHorsto
30-07-13, 11:08
Government and big business likes what I say, right?
So again, what is the reason they will destroy me?

That's exactly the point. In order to answer both questions you need to disclose to us all your and your family's and friend's phone and internet activities. I hope you and your family is healthy and unsuspicious and never researched hot topics or diseases. Are you critical journalist? Then it will be increasingly difficult to find a job or insurance, your or your family's life might end up destroyed even without direct involvement of corrupt government. There was a reason why privacy was once protected in democracies. There are still laws today. But I understood, laws are obstacles for progress.

peitho
30-07-13, 11:10
The question makes no sense at all. Of course they would need the real data first to know whom to address at all. What's the point of making up something against a random person?

Exactly. When they already have the data of course its cheaper the use this against people. And its "waterproof".

peitho
30-07-13, 11:14
That's exactly the point. In order to answer both questions you need to disclose to us all your and your family's and friend's phone and internet activities. I hope you and your family is healthy and unsuspicious and never researched hot topics or diseases. Are you critical journalist? Then it will be increasingly difficult to find a job or insurance, your or your family's life might end up destroyed even without direct involvement of corrupt government. There was a reason why privacy was once protected in democracies. There are still laws today. But I understood, laws are obstacles for progress.

Edward snowden pointed out that only in USA Millions of people are on that "List of Persons who are a potentioal Threat"

nordicwarrior
30-07-13, 12:30
There's a video on youtube (and surely other sites) that almost perfectly encapsulates this topic. I can't provide the link, but type in "soccer fans security guards". The scenario is one that very much scares the world elites-- when the people-start-figuring-it-out. There's far more of us than there are of them. When the rich and powerful are cognizant of this number differential, hopefully their actions and intentions will reflect the situation.

ElHorsto
30-07-13, 13:04
Exactly. When they already have the data of course its cheaper the use this against people. And its "waterproof".

Yes, but I mean the real data are required in any case to identify potential targets first.

hope
30-07-13, 13:09
The question makes no sense at all. Of course they would need the real data first to know whom to address at all. What's the point of making up something against a random person?

So then, you are saying they will not target random people. Okay, good to know.





And ElHorsto, thank-you for re-posting the question you began yesterday then deleted, settling instead to give me a negative response. I would have preferred if you had given me the chance to reply, as you have done to-day...no matter :)
On the up side, peitho, to whom the question was asked, had no trouble in understanding it and, replied well with a full answer.

ElHorsto
30-07-13, 13:53
So then, you are saying they will not target random people. Okay, good to know.

And ElHorsto, thank-you for re-posting the question you began yesterday then deleted, settling instead to give me a negative response. I would have preferred if you had given me the chance to reply, as you have done to-day...no matter :)
On the up side, peitho, to whom the question was asked, had no trouble in understanding it and, replied well with a full answer.

I apologize, I had a hard time to find a meaningful reply until I finally gave up because I thought your question was not serious. I really didn't know how to answer and got frustrated, therefore my negative reply. I'll try to be more careful in future.

LeBrok
31-07-13, 02:58
Yes, but I mean the real data are required in any case to identify potential targets first.
It is very useful, but not required. What real data was required for Khmer Rouge to kill a million people? It was enough if you happened to live in a village marked for extermination.
Josef Stalin has sent best generals and polit bureau members to gulags just because they held offices for too long, long enough to potentially plan something against him. Again no real data required just despotic leaders with neurotic personality.
Should we mention N Korea where internet doesn't exist, or any computer data collection, and yet as much as 10% citizens are locked in labour camps.

These are real life examples showing that data collection is not required for any tyrant to persecute or kill.

Have a good government and data is used for our protection. Have a bad one and nobody is safe, or data even needed.

LeBrok
31-07-13, 03:31
So, nobody here is to congratulate FBI on saving underage girls from prostitution? And yes, they were collecting data from pimp's websites.
I guess, the real life example wasn't as exciting as protecting us all from hypothetical dictatorship in the future.

Yetos
31-07-13, 07:45
So, nobody here is to congratulate FBI on saving underage girls from prostitution? And yes, they were collecting data from pimp's websites.
I guess, the real life example wasn't as exciting as protecting us all from hypothetical dictatorship in the future.

one out of many?

besides protectors are paid to protect,
and to protect our rights also.


simply you are not convicing.

LeBrok
31-07-13, 09:03
one out of many?

besides protectors are paid to protect,
and to protect our rights also.


simply you are not convicing.
Can't you say thank you for a good job? I guess it has to be greek culture.

peitho
31-07-13, 10:57
Can't you say thank you for a good job? I guess it has to be greek culture.

That statement is insulting, lacks any argumentation and one could see racism in it.
Please say thank you to them for breaking your most fundamental rights. Oh sorry i forgot, you dont see any broken rights. Saying thanks to the FBI Action is hard if they used obtained data which they get through breaking laws.
Saying thank you to them is like saying thank you for a guy that got imprisoned because of a confession through torture. But his torture doesnt even break your rights.

And you guys overseas are also OK with torture i guess. AS you are OK with the intentional kill of Bin Laden, which was not only against human right and international right, but it would also be murder in the US itself.

And you ment, there are less wars now? Is that a joke? In 2011 there were the most wars at once since 1945 just Google it.

hope
31-07-13, 15:12
So, nobody here is to congratulate FBI on saving underage girls from prostitution? And yes, they were collecting data from pimp's websites.
I guess, the real life example wasn't as exciting as protecting us all from hypothetical dictatorship in the future.

Yes, I`ll say well done and good result. I only read this properly last night or I could have felt pleased for these young girls much sooner.
I50 people who preyed upon young girls and used them in the way they did, are now arrested and 105 girls [ some very young indeed] released from the grasp of the manipulating people, who have made money through underage sex ...I can`t help but see the positive in that.
I also say well done to the earlier work, that now brings the total of young people rescued from similar positions over the past ten years ,to 2,200.

LeBrok
31-07-13, 19:07
That statement is insulting Yes I shouldn't have said that, sorry Yetos.


one could see racism in it. Really? Do Greeks seem to you, as German, as different race?



Please say thank you to them for breaking your most fundamental rights. Oh sorry i forgot, you dont see any broken rights. Saying thanks to the FBI Action is hard if they used obtained data which they get through breaking laws. Wow, you already convicted FBI without a proof that they broke any laws in this case. Case of freeing underage girls from slavery. Gods save us from future lawyers and lawmakers like you.


Saying thank you to them is like saying thank you for a guy that got imprisoned because of a confession through torture. But his torture doesnt even break your rights.
And you guys overseas are also OK with torture i guess. AS you are OK with the intentional kill of Bin Laden, which was not only against human right and international right, but it would also be murder in the US itself.
Are we changing subject from data mining to world morality?
How did your occupy movement went to save the immoral world? I'll give your initiative same chance of succeeding, sadly.


And you ment, there are less wars now? Is that a joke? In 2011 there were the most wars at once since 1945 just Google it. you must have your own special definition of war. Let's quantify it a little bit. Do you have statistics showing deaths from conflicts or number of dictators/regimes per year.

And honestly, get off your young and idealistic horse and smell the real life, which by any standards is not black and white.
You sound like you had easy life in your parents house, never worked or paid taxes, and knows life only from TV and few socialistic teachers. The life experience of almost 20 year old.

http://filipspagnoli.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/average-number-of-violent-conflicts-e1313935841485.jpg?w=696

http://filipspagnoli.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/humansecurityreport_number_of_battle-deaths1.jpg?w=696
http://filipspagnoli.wordpress.com/stats-on-human-rights/statistics-on-war-conflict/statistics-on-violent-conflict/

And keep in mind that number of people is growing every year, therefore probability of more people dying in wars is bigger than before. And in spite of it, number of deaths from conflicts and number of conflicts dropping down.

Templar
31-07-13, 20:19
And in spite of it, number of deaths from conflicts and number of conflicts dropping down.

What do you think is the reason/cause of this? I am guessing it is due to greater inter-connectivity between countries. If your country heavily invests in another country you are less likely to want to bomb the hell out of it. But I guess greater democratization and income increases also played a role.

Yetos
31-07-13, 20:30
Can't you say thank you for a good job? I guess it has to be greek culture.

that is why some people are born losers,

A job is not given neither by protectors, neither by state, neither by banks,

so I never say thank you, when i get a job,

only man without degnity say thank you for a job.

a job is like a trade, do you say thank at supermarket?

you buy consuming products you pay,
you sweat and get tired, you get payed,

Do you say thank you at super market?

Lebrok understand it, Communism has fall, its time to fall Capitalism.
Only Islam can save Capitalism, that is why Europe and USA are importing enough of it.

HUMAN RIGHTS ARE ABOVE ECONOMICAL SYSTEM.

I PAY WITH TAXES MY PROTECTOR TO PROTECT MY RIGHTS.
NOT TO DEPRESS THEM.

DID YOU EVER SAY THANK YOU FOR A GOOD JOB?
IT MEANS YOU ARE NOT WORTH IT.

Templar
31-07-13, 20:38
Only Islam can save Capitalism, that is why Europe and USA are importing enough of it.



What do you mean?

Yetos
31-07-13, 22:16
What do you mean?

did you ever heard a revolt in Islam for pure economical reasons? (like revolution Francais for example)
except the late Arab spring, which the results seems to act strange in some islamic countries like Egypt.

Templar
31-07-13, 22:41
did you ever heard a revolt in Islam for pure economical reasons? (like revolution Francais for example)
except the late Arab spring, which the results seems to act strange in some islamic countries like Egypt.

I think I know what you mean. Like religion is a tool of the 1% elite and they use it to oppress and control the poor. And since Islam is super demanding and centralized, it is more potent than other religions. As Napoleon said: "religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich"

LeBrok
01-08-13, 02:37
A job is not given neither by protectors, neither by state, neither by banks,
I don't want to say that, but it has to be a Greek economy. It would explain big unemployment. Nobody gives job to anyone in Greece.


so I never say thank you, when i get a job,

only man without degnity say thank you for a job. You should sign your avatar with this. This is priceless!


a job is like a trade, do you say thank at supermarket?

you buy consuming products you pay,
you sweat and get tired, you get payed,

Do you say thank you at super market?

Yes, yes and yes



I PAY WITH TAXES MY PROTECTOR TO PROTECT MY RIGHTS.
NOT TO DEPRESS THEM. And how is it working in Greece?


DID YOU EVER SAY THANK YOU FOR A GOOD JOB?
IT MEANS YOU ARE NOT WORTH IT.
Yes, and I thank customers, employees, neighbours, my wife, and I even thank a man who invented a shower, at least once a week. Wish he got the nobel prize for that invention.
But it all must feels sick for you Yetos.

LeBrok
01-08-13, 02:51
What do you think is the reason/cause of this? I am guessing it is due to greater inter-connectivity between countries. If your country heavily invests in another country you are less likely to want to bomb the hell out of it. But I guess greater democratization and income increases also played a role.
This all play role in global peace. The more people have the less likely they want to go and die in the war. If you have a job, a house, wife, kids, car, vacation, good life in general. Why would you go and risk your life? Well, it doesn't work with all people, but enough if it works with vast majority. Peace through good economy.
Also prosperous and well fed society never starts revolution.
Inter connectivity like turism, free news from other countries, or trade is important too. If you know people from other countries, that they want exactly the same peaceful life as you do, plus you have few friends there, it is less likely that you would vote for a president who wants war with them.

Yetos
01-08-13, 05:34
I don't want to say that, but it has to be a Greek economy. It would explain big unemployment. Nobody gives job to anyone in Greece.

You should sign your avatar with this. This is priceless!


Yes, yes and yes


And how is it working in Greece?


Yes, and I thank customers, employees, neighbours, my wife, and I even thank a man who invented a shower, at least once a week. Wish he got the nobel prize for that invention.
But it all must feels sick for you Yetos.


my friend,
ASK DNI NSA and their connections with VERIZON and X-Keyscore program.

and then go to phone company and Say thank you for recording my talks,
and then go to NSA and say again Thank you for observing my internet activity.

and then go to some Social sites and say thank you for my DATA send to Therion. etc etc.

DO YOU EXPECT ME TO SAY THANK YOU NSA and VERIZON FOR 'PARENTAL" OBSERVATION OF MY PERSONAL LIFE?????

Yetos
01-08-13, 05:40
I think I know what you mean. Like religion is a tool of the 1% elite and they use it to oppress and control the poor. And since Islam is super demanding and centralized, it is more potent than other religions. As Napoleon said: "religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich"

Yes, you target correct.

Yetos
01-08-13, 05:45
This all play role in global peace. The more people have the less likely they want to go and die in the war. If you have a job, a house, wife, kids, car, vacation, good life in general. Why would you go and risk your life? Well, it doesn't work with all people, but enough if it works with vast majority. Peace through good economy.
Also prosperous and well fed society never starts revolution.
Inter connectivity like turism, free news from other countries, or trade is important too. If you know people from other countries, that they want exactly the same peaceful life as you do, plus you have few friends there, it is less likely that you would vote for a president who wants war with them.

in such case your bellow the president make a 9/11 and create a foundamental movement, which is willing and demanding.

LeBrok
01-08-13, 06:44
Yes, you target correct.
What is stopping you?

Nobody1
01-08-13, 07:13
DO YOU EXPECT ME TO SAY THANK YOU NSA and VERIZON FOR 'PARENTAL" OBSERVATION OF MY PERSONAL LIFE?????

http://replygif.net/i/407.gif

Yetos
02-08-13, 22:25
Hey Lebrok

one day you might wake up like this

http://news247.gr/eidiseis/paraksena/article2356694.ece/ALTERNATES/w460/antitomokratiki.jpg




READ THE BELLOW, AND SEE WHAT YOU SUPPORT

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/01/government-tracking-google-searches


This is gonna have fun,

I am gonna send e-mails everywhere so to 'invite' antiterrorists :laughing: to my home,

its gonna have fun,


DO YOU A JOKE ABOUT A GREEK IMMIGRANT IN USA LEBROK AT DICTATORSHIP TIMES?


at 1960's NATO/OTAN was afraid a lot the communist party, so in Greece they make a Junda and an agents group (code name RED FLEECE), as in other European countries also.

a young boy migrate to USA and left his old man alone and old back to Greece,

at October time the boy goes to a publicphone calls his old man and say to him,
DAD plz watch the guns, I hide in the field above the church near the river,

After 1 week the boy takes again his father, who complains to boy,
Why you said about guns? Tanks came anδ plowed the field? they dig every where.

and the boy answer to his father,
SOW THE WHEAT DAD, SOW WHEAT, :grin:


That is what I am gonna do now,
I am gonna send emails everywhere, about BOMBS, and PRESIDENT, etc etc,
so antiterrists to come,
and I will useUSA tax payers to buy me a new door, windows, carpets etc,

you see, you might get lucky and change doors, windows, carpets, wall colours, etc, only by sending suspicious emails,

YEAH I LIKE THAT SYSTEM :grin:

BOMB BOMB BOMB BOMB :laughing:


At how many red light turns on? :angry:

ElHorsto
03-08-13, 20:11
It is very useful, but not required.


Of course real data are required. It is reasonably obvious that they are required for doing any kind of selection, i.e. victim selection. How this can be even questioned is beyond me.



What real data was required for Khmer Rouge to kill a million people?


If they really killed randomly without any pre-selection (I don't know) then you are right, they needed no data.



Josef Stalin has sent best generals and polit bureau members to gulags just because they held offices for too long, long enough to potentially plan something against him. Again no real data required just despotic leaders with neurotic personality.


These are very good examples for such data (held office for too long, having red hair (suspected zionist), having relatives in US or Israel, ...) which exactly prove my point. These data provided suspicions and Stalin deliberately killed also the false positives for safety reasons. The internet and phone data provide mostly that: false positives.

Wouldn't Stalin have spied and backed-up the Internet if he could?



Should we mention N Korea where internet doesn't exist, or any computer data collection, and yet as much as 10% citizens are locked in labour camps.

These are real life examples showing that data collection is not required for any tyrant to persecute or kill.


These are merely examples showing that this happened already before the internet. That's really not a big insight. Stasi, Gestapo and Inquisition had no internet obviously. They tried to find the data by other means. Would they have not spied phone and internet if they could?


Have a good government and data is used for our protection. Have a bad one and nobody is safe, or data even needed.

First, governments can change (EU, Hungary, soon Greece, maybe other crisis shattered countries too).
Second, war or invasion can happen. The laws forbid excessive violation of privacy because of such potential misuse.

ElHorsto
03-08-13, 20:54
http://filipspagnoli.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/humansecurityreport_number_of_battle-deaths1.jpg?w=696
http://filipspagnoli.wordpress.com/stats-on-human-rights/statistics-on-war-conflict/statistics-on-violent-conflict/

And keep in mind that number of people is growing every year, therefore probability of more people dying in wars is bigger than before. And in spite of it, number of deaths from conflicts and number of conflicts dropping down.

Don't what to argue much about this topic, but want to note that there seem to exist some controversies regarding these statistics:

Global War Deaths Have Been Substantially Underestimated, Study Shows
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080619194142.htm

"They estimate that 5.4 million deaths occurred as a result of war in the 13 countries studied between 1955 and 2002, from 7000 in the Democratic Republic of Congo to 3.8 million in Vietnam.
The researchers point out that these estimates are on average three times higher than those obtained from previous reports. For example, they estimate that 378 000 people died a violent death as result of war each year between 1985 and 1994, compared to previous estimates of 137 000 people during this time."

A weakness of both statistics is that they end at 2002.

LeBrok
03-08-13, 23:36
Don't what to argue much about this topic, but want to note that there seem to exist some controversies regarding these statistics:

Global War Deaths Have Been Substantially Underestimated, Study Shows
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080619194142.htm

"They estimate that 5.4 million deaths occurred as a result of war in the 13 countries studied between 1955 and 2002, from 7000 in the Democratic Republic of Congo to 3.8 million in Vietnam.
The researchers point out that these estimates are on average three times higher than those obtained from previous reports. For example, they estimate that 378 000 people died a violent death as result of war each year between 1985 and 1994, compared to previous estimates of 137 000 people during this time."

A weakness of both statistics is that they end at 2002.
So what, if casualties in all wars are higher than estimated then we still see positive fall of kills and positive decline in conflicts (by positive I mean fewer). Still inspite of growing world population. I was arguing the positive trend not the true number of casualties.

LeBrok
03-08-13, 23:41
Of course real data are required. It is reasonably obvious that they are required for doing any kind of selection, i.e. victim selection. How this can be even questioned is beyond me.

Looks like you questioned yourself:

If they really killed randomly without any pre-selection (I don't know) then you are right, they needed no data.




These are very good examples for such data (held office for too long, having red hair (suspected zionist), having relatives in US or Israel, ...) which exactly prove my point. These data provided suspicions and Stalin deliberately killed also the false positives for safety reasons. The internet and phone data provide mostly that: false positives.

Wouldn't Stalin have spied and backed-up the Internet if he could?



These are merely examples showing that this happened already before the internet. That's really not a big insight. Stasi, Gestapo and Inquisition had no internet obviously. They tried to find the data by other means. Would they have not spied phone and internet if they could?

Exactly. If you let "bed" government to run the country, nothing is going to stop any kind of surveillance.



First, governments can change (EU, Hungary, soon Greece, maybe other crisis shattered countries too).
Second, war or invasion can happen. The laws forbid excessive violation of privacy because of such potential misuse.
Governments are known to break their own laws. Make sure you pick the best to run your country.

LeBrok
03-08-13, 23:49
Bib brother is going to look how we drive soon!


By 2015 all cars must have black boxes if a transportation bill before Congress passes, as it’s likely to. The goal is to help investigators understand more about crashes.

Some insurance companies offer carrot-and-stick discounts that lower your rates if they can install a different black box that records when, how fast, and sometimes where you drive, in order to give or take away insurance discounts. These are essentially always-on, always-tracking recorders. To many motorists they smack of big brother. But they also provide a financial lifeline for a driver with a lousy record; it may be the only way he or she can get

ElHorsto
04-08-13, 00:59
Looks like you questioned yourself:


It looks like this because you skipped to highlight the phrases 'selection' and 'without any pre-selection' which make the crucial case distinction. It was me who responded to Hope that the lack of any data would imply lack of selection thus random killing/persecution/making-up/whatever. If the Red Khmer really killed randomly without being selective (which I doubt), then this would be exactly what I meant: irrational and pointless. If a government or group wants to act rationally even in the slightest it requires a minimum of real data (at least for distinguishing friend and foe).
Actually one selection criterion used by the Red Khmer was the presence of contacts to foreigners, so basically suspicious communication data.

LeBrok
04-08-13, 03:07
Actually one selection criterion used by the Red Khmer was the presence of contacts to foreigners, so basically suspicious communication data.
Yes, and they have killed whole village to give example to others. So yes data selection, if you must, was that they found you in this village. Who cares what your name is, innocent or not.
Data selection in N Korea was relationship to "counterrevolutionary". Mother, fathers, kids, husbands are sent to camps too. It creates great responsability for people questioning dictators. It is not only your life in stake.
I'm not questioning usefulness of data for regimes, it is very useful. I'm showing you examples that data is not always required for bad tyrants to kill people. Many random people die as example to keep others in check. Many are sent to camps on suspicion only, just to keep camps full for slave labour.

ElHorsto
04-08-13, 23:44
So, nobody here is to congratulate FBI on saving underage girls from prostitution? And yes, they were collecting data from pimp's websites.


That means the FBI had a Reasonable_suspicion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_suspicion) according to the fourth amendment. Congratulations, well done.