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Maciamo
02-08-13, 16:44
I had been postponing the creation of this map until more data was available, especially for France and Central Europe. But as this could take years, I've decided to make the map anyway and update it later once new studies will be published. So please take it with a pinch of salt.

The map is mostly based on the data for SRY2627 (M167) and M153. I expect the overall frequency to be higher once other subclades will be brought to light.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-DF27.gif (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#R1b-DF27)

Mikewww
03-08-13, 00:56
I had been postponing the creation of this map until more data was available, especially for France and Central Europe. But as this could take years, I've decided to make the map anyway and update it later once new studies will be published. So please take it with a pinch of salt.

The map is mostly based on the data for SRY2627 (M167) and M153. I expect the overall frequency to be higher once other subclades will be brought to light.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-DF27.gif (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#R1b-DF27)

Thank you, Maciamo. One of my lineages is DF27+ Z220+, which will probably be the biggest new elements of DF27. It's the Ken Nordtvedt's old R1b-North-South Cluster and is quite heavy in Iberia and France but found its way to Scandinavia and Germany too.

Maciamo
03-08-13, 09:13
Thank you, Maciamo. One of my lineages is DF27+ Z220+, which will probably be the biggest new elements of DF27. It's the Ken Nordtvedt's old R1b-North-South Cluster and is quite heavy in Iberia and France but found its way to Scandinavia and Germany too.

Thanks. Do you know how to recognise this R1b-North-South cluster using STR's ? Is that the one with DYS437=14, DYS448=18, and H4=10 ?

Dubhthach
03-08-13, 14:16
Thanks. Do you know how to recognise this R1b-North-South cluster using STR's ? Is that the one with DYS437=14, DYS448=18, and H4=10 ?

DYS437=14, DYS448=18, GATAH4=10, DYS392=13, DYS531=11, DYS388=12, DYS426=12, and DYS454=11

Obviously your map at the moment shows two of the know clades of Z196. There however DF27+, Z196- men out there. For example men with native Irish surnames who are DF27+ often show up as Z196-


There's good probability that the P312* (L21-, U152-) in Iberia/Southern France in the following map are mostly DF27+, obviously as you go further north there would be possibility of DF19 and L238. (Britain, Benelux and Scandinavia)

http://www.u152.org/images/stories/P312_BB_Palmeta_Points_v001.png



http://www.u152.org/images/stories/P312_BB_Palmeta_Points_v001.png

Maciamo
08-08-13, 16:30
I have looked for the North-South cluster STR's in the data of the Iberian study by Adams et al., as well as in the FTDNA projects for Scandinavia, Ireland, Scotland and the Benelux. I have revised the frequencies accordingly for Iberia and Gascony. However the frequencies of DF27 do not seem to exceed 5% anywhere in northern Europe.

I wonder how Richard Rocca gets the same frequency of DF27 in Cantabria + Asturias, where there is 55% of R1b, and in the Basque country + Catalonia, where R1b exceeds 85% of the population. That would mean that DF27 makes up
a much higher proportion of R1b subclades in Cantabria and Asturias. I don't think that is the case.

Mikewww
08-08-13, 23:24
I have looked for the North-South cluster STR's in the data of the Iberian study by Adams et al., as well as in the FTDNA projects for Scandinavia, Ireland, Scotland and the Benelux. I have revised the frequencies accordingly for Iberia and Gascony. However the frequencies of DF27 do not seem to exceed 5% anywhere in northern Europe.

I wonder how Richard Rocca gets the same frequency of DF27 in Cantabria + Asturias, where there is 55% of R1b, and in the Basque country + Catalonia, where R1b exceeds 85% of the population. That would mean that DF27 makes up a much higher proportion of R1b subclades in Cantabria and Asturias. I don't think that is the case.

I don't know how Richard calculated these frequencies. It's probably over on the WFN forum about a year ago. I know his base was the Busby and Myres data sets and I think he used Adams and one other study for Iberia in addition.

In terms of the P312 project, we are getting that over 80% of the P312+ U152- L21- people are coming in at DF27. The old project administrator had a deal where people like that would test DF27 and and he'd pay for another test if they came out DF27- so he was putting his money where his mouth was.

In Iberia the rate is higher than 80% but that's probably picking up more SRY2627 people which are DF27+ by default.

However, keep in mind. That 80% is not 80% of P312 but 80% of P312+ that is confirmed L21- U152- which takes a bunch of people out in some places, like the Isles or parts of Italy and France.

Tabaccus Maximus
09-08-13, 02:33
I had been postponing the creation of this map until more data was available, especially for France and Central Europe. But as this could take years, I've decided to make the map anyway and update it later once new studies will be published. So please take it with a pinch of salt.

The map is mostly based on the data for SRY2627 (M167) and M153. I expect the overall frequency to be higher once other subclades will be brought to light.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-DF27.gif (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#R1b-DF27)


Thanks for posting this Maciamo. This is the first time I've seen a map like this that I can remember. It really puts DF27 into perspective.

Let add a little to it for whatever it is worth. Obviously I belong to the 2627 clade as shown on my profile and my male line originates in the southern part of the island of Britain.
I've been working deep ancestry for a number of years and I would 'guess' that a majority of the British and Irish male lines who are in the 2627 project have a recent origin in France within the last thousand years.
Deep ancestry is nearly impossible to prove, and most of my research on lines other than mine have been wags, but most of the names, even those with Anglo-Saxon or Gaelic surnames, appear to have a likely or possible origin with Doomsday male settlers.

You'll also note from the Didier's 2627 sub-clades that the TMRCAs of every group seems to fall in a range that can usually be best explained by doomsday in the B.I.'s, although I would also expect a smaller previous input during the Roman era in Southern Britain. Most of the little clades have a mix of French and English surnames.

Currently, you show most of British Islands in the 1-5% range total for DF27. I wonder if it were possible to peel away every root Norman ancestral family how much SRY2627 would be left in the British Islands if at all?

Also, are you aware of any other M153 or 2627 outside of Western Europe? Say North Africa, Middle East?

One last comment, the presence of DF27 in Central Europe is interesting. Does anyone know what its diversity is there?

Mikewww
09-08-13, 04:01
... Also, are you aware of any other M153 or 2627 outside of Western Europe? Say North Africa, Middle East?

The intriguing one is on the Old Norway Project map I posted at:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28947-Analysis-of-R1b-subclades-in-Scandinavia?p=413540&viewfull=1#post413540

For the R1b projected "smaller" pie you will see in the "NI" (Norway Inland) region there is a purple slice. The purple in the R1b pies is for M153 so there are a couple of M153+ people there. As you know, M153+ is purportedly "the Basque Marker". It is a subset of the North-South cluster which has Z220+ upstream.

Were these historic period Basque fisherman working their ways in the North Sea?
Or was this some clue, since M153 is not that old, of some late prehistoric or early classical period expansion of the North-South Cluster both north and south, with the bulk of the M153 going into Aquitania and eventually the Pyrenees?

I don't know. I'd love to get the haplotypes of those M153 people from Norway.


...One last comment, the presence of DF27 in Central Europe is interesting. Does anyone know what its diversity is there?

I keep a spreadsheet of all DF27 67 STR haplotypes or suspected ones that I can find since I'm a DF27 project admin.
I use to get that France and Germany had as high or higher variance for long haplotypes as Iberia, but it as pretty much evened out so I can't really say. There are many kinds of DF27 in Iberia so they may have gotten there relatively early if they didn't start out there.

LeBrok
09-08-13, 08:46
I had been postponing the creation of this map until more data was available, especially for France and Central Europe. But as this could take years, I've decided to make the map anyway and update it later once new studies will be published. So please take it with a pinch of salt.

The map is mostly based on the data for SRY2627 (M167) and M153. I expect the overall frequency to be higher once other subclades will be brought to light.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-DF27.gif (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#R1b-DF27)
Could this be a marker of first R1b in Europe of non-IE kind, the pre IE?

Tabaccus Maximus
09-08-13, 11:42
The intriguing one is on the Old Norway Project map I posted at:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28947-Analysis-of-R1b-subclades-in-Scandinavia?p=413540&viewfull=1#post413540

For the R1b projected "smaller" pie you will see in the "NI" (Norway Inland) region there is a purple slice. The purple in the R1b pies is for M153 so there are a couple of M153+ people there. As you know, M153+ is purportedly "the Basque Marker". It is a subset of the North-South cluster which has Z220+ upstream.

Were these historic period Basque fisherman working their ways in the North Sea?
Or was this some clue, since M153 is not that old, of some late prehistoric or early classical period expansion of the North-South Cluster both north and south, with the bulk of the M153 going into Aquitania and eventually the Pyrenees?

I don't know. I'd love to get the haplotypes of those M153 people from Norway.



I keep a spreadsheet of all DF27 67 STR haplotypes or suspected ones that I can find since I'm a DF27 project admin.
I use to get that France and Germany had as high or higher variance for long haplotypes as Iberia, but it as pretty much evened out so I can't really say. There are many kinds of DF27 in Iberia so they may have gotten there relatively early if they didn't start out there.

I see your point and it is interesting. For the most part, I would think the British, North Sea, Canary or Med archipelagos would generally tend to better capture relict populations that give us a snapshot of past population movements, especially those that are very isolated such as is the case in the North Sea. It is generally true throughout any division of biology to either find relict populations on islands or populations that diverged in isolation. I would be interesting to know more about the islanders in the North Sea. I doubt too many outsiders were jealous of poor quality soils that were frozen half the year. To be honest, the many thinly supported 'Basque theorizing' out there doesn't go too far with me. The Basque people probably have a heavy Indo-European male bias, no different from Cherokees, African Americans or other groups. You would think if the Basque language was spoken by any division of R1b people at an early time that you would find some similar language in the Canaries or on St. Hilda's or an island or in a desert. Going back to the North Sea, how do you think the colonization of Iceland and Greenland come into play? R1b is present there and that would eliminate any gene flow questions for the last thousand years??

Maciamo
09-08-13, 12:17
Could this be a marker of first R1b in Europe of non-IE kind, the pre IE?

Very doubtful since it is a subclade of P312/S116. I think it represents the first migration of R1b Indo-Europeans from central Europe to south-west Europe, circa 2300 BCE. As I have explained in How did the Basques become R1b ? (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28386-How-did-the-Basques-become-R1b), this R1b migration was probably carried by a group of Indo-European men, adventurers mounted on horses and equipped with bronze weapons in search of easy conquest and loot in Neolithic western Europe. It took over 500 years for the Bronze Age to spread around all Iberia (from 1800 to 1300 BCE) because no proper Bronze Age culture emerged before the wider Atlantic Bronze Age (1300-700 BCE). Before that there were only isolated settlements where bronze weapons have been found, but no evidence of bronze producing societies making use of bronze technologies for everyday life. I believe that this is a sign that for this half millennium Iberia was ruled by warlords of Indo-European (R1b) origin, who had lost their Indo-European language and heritage after a few generations. It is likely that Indo-European languages did not really take hold in Iberia (in the north-west at least) during the Hallstatt expansion around 600 BCE. That doesn't mean that R1b wasn't present in Iberia before that of course. R1b had just become acculturated because of the lack of organised migration of whole tribes with women and children.

Maciamo
09-08-13, 12:20
The intriguing one is on the Old Norway Project map I posted at:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28947-Analysis-of-R1b-subclades-in-Scandinavia?p=413540&viewfull=1#post413540

For the R1b projected "smaller" pie you will see in the "NI" (Norway Inland) region there is a purple slice. The purple in the R1b pies is for M153 so there are a couple of M153+ people there. As you know, M153+ is purportedly "the Basque Marker". It is a subset of the North-South cluster which has Z220+ upstream.

Were these historic period Basque fisherman working their ways in the North Sea?
Or was this some clue, since M153 is not that old, of some late prehistoric or early classical period expansion of the North-South Cluster both north and south, with the bulk of the M153 going into Aquitania and eventually the Pyrenees?

I don't know. I'd love to get the haplotypes of those M153 people from Norway.


M153 (and other DF27 subclades) could have spread from Iberia to France, the British Isles and western Scandinavia during the Atlantic Bronze Age, when there were clearly well-established trade networks over all Atlantic Europe. That would explain why DF27 is only found at low frequencies outside Iberia and Gascony.

The DF27 around the Alps might be leftover of the original group that 'colonised' Iberia.

LeBrok
09-08-13, 16:46
Very doubtful since it is a subclade of P312/S116. I think it represents the first migration of R1b Indo-Europeans from central Europe to south-west Europe, circa 2300 BCE. As I have explained in How did the Basques become R1b ? (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28386-How-did-the-Basques-become-R1b), this R1b migration was probably carried by a group of Indo-European men, adventurers mounted on horses and equipped with bronze weapons in search of easy conquest and loot in Neolithic western Europe. It took over 500 years for the Bronze Age to spread around all Iberia (from 1800 to 1300 BCE) because no proper Bronze Age culture emerged before the wider Atlantic Bronze Age (1300-700 BCE). Before that there were only isolated settlements where bronze weapons have been found, but no evidence of bronze producing societies making use of bronze technologies for everyday life. I believe that this is a sign that for this half millennium Iberia was ruled by warlords of Indo-European (R1b) origin, who had lost their Indo-European language and heritage after a few generations. It is likely that Indo-European languages did not really take hold in Iberia (in the north-west at least) during the Hallstatt expansion around 600 BCE. That doesn't mean that R1b wasn't present in Iberia before that of course. R1b had just become acculturated because of the lack of organised migration of whole tribes with women and children.

It makes sense, elegant explanation.
Do we have corresponding places in West Asia with DF27, that could help finding starting point of first R1b going to Europe? It would be sweet if there were.

Maciamo
09-08-13, 20:52
I makes sense, elegant explanation.
Do we have corresponding places in West Asia with DF27, that could help finding starting point of first R1b going to Europe? It would be sweet if there were.

Why in West Asia ? DF27 is a branch of P312 that probably started expanding from Central Europe (Unetice culture).

Mikewww
09-08-13, 21:06
... I wonder how Richard Rocca gets the same frequency of DF27 in Cantabria + Asturias, where there is 55% of R1b, and in the Basque country + Catalonia, where R1b exceeds 85% of the population. That would mean that DF27 makes up a much higher proportion of R1b subclades in Cantabria and Asturias. I don't think that is the case.

Richard added the Martínez-Cruz (2012) data to Myres and busby to make the map.

He said, "It was for P312(xU152,L21) so in the case of Cantabria, all samples were P312(xU152,L21) so 55% "predicted" DF27 seems about right."

Mikewww
09-08-13, 21:36
... For the R1b projected "smaller" pie you will see in the "NI" (Norway Inland) region there is a purple slice. The purple in the R1b pies is for M153 so there are a couple of M153+ people there. As you know, M153+ is purportedly "the Basque Marker". It is a subset of the North-South cluster which has Z220+ upstream.

Were these historic period Basque fisherman working their ways in the North Sea?
Or was this some clue, since M153 is not that old, of some late prehistoric or early classical period expansion of the North-South Cluster both north and south, with the bulk of the M153 going into Aquitania and eventually the Pyrenees?

I don't know. I'd love to get the haplotypes of those M153 people from Norway.


Very doubtful since it is a subclade of P312/S116. I think it represents the first migration of R1b Indo-Europeans from central Europe to south-west Europe, circa 2300 BCE. As I have explained in How did the Basques become R1b ? (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28386-How-did-the-Basques-become-R1b), this R1b migration was probably carried by a group of Indo-European men, adventurers mounted on horses and equipped with bronze weapons in search of easy conquest and loot in Neolithic western Europe. It took over 500 years for the Bronze Age to spread around all Iberia (from 1800 to 1300 BCE) because no proper Bronze Age culture emerged before the wider Atlantic Bronze Age (1300-700 BCE). Before that there were only isolated settlements where bronze weapons have been found, but no evidence of bronze producing societies making use of bronze technologies for everyday life. I believe that this is a sign that for this half millennium Iberia was ruled by warlords of Indo-European (R1b) origin, who had lost their Indo-European language and heritage after a few generations. It is likely that Indo-European languages did not really take hold in Iberia (in the north-west at least) during the Hallstatt expansion around 600 BCE. That doesn't mean that R1b wasn't present in Iberia before that of course. R1b had just become acculturated because of the lack of organised migration of whole tribes with women and children.

I'm not sure we are disagreement here but I do want to clarify something about M153. It is called the "Basque marker" but that doesn't mean it is the majority subclade in Basque people, just that it is a unique or diagnostic marker for identifying Basque populations. I don't like to give genes ethnic names so I would not use the term "Basque marker" but it is true that it is pretty much only found in known Basque populations. The Scandinavian M153 samples are new news, though. (I think they need verification, BTW).

The whole DF27, Z196, Z220 lineage down to M153 might be very instructive. Keep in mind that, apparently from Z220+ on down is the North-South cluster. While Z196 is a very, very broad multi-STR signature clade covering L176.2 as well as Z220.

I have the DF27 project people loaded in a spreadsheet and can easily calculate Sum of the Variance and Maximum GD to the modal for 67 STR (only) haplotypes. The below is the lineage down to M153.

R1b-DF27
Sum of Var: 21.77
Max GD to modal: 29

R1b-Z196>Z196
Sum of Var: 21.41
Max GD to modal: 29

R1b-Z196>Z196>Z209>Z220
Sum of Var: 18.71
Max GD to modal: 26

R1b-P312>DF27>Z196>Z209>Z220>Z216
Sum of Var: 13.85
Max GD to modal: 18

R1b-P312>DF27>Z196>Z209>Z220>Z216>Z278>Z214
Sum of Var: 12.31
Max GD to modal: 13

R1b-P312>DF27>Z196>Z209>Z220>Z216>Z278>Z214>M153
Sum of Var: 8.7
Max GD to modal: 11

TMRCAs and mutation rate discussions open their own can of worms so I just showed the variance in the data itself. At least relative to DF27, see how young M153 must really be? I don't think M153 was around in the Atlantic Bronze Age timeframe. This is what would be so exciting if any M153+ in Scandinavia was NOT some historic time period/global travel kind of thing.

It could potentially pin down the expansion of the North-South Cluster to some relatively late prehistoric or classical timeframe since M153 apparently was around to go both north and south.

LeBrok
10-08-13, 02:36
Why in West Asia ? DF27 is a branch of P312 that probably started expanding from Central Europe (Unetice culture).
I was hoping that by its age it started when R1b was all in Asia. Actually at the time of migration. When it is found in West Asia in one region only it would be easy to link and find the starting point of first R1b who moved to Europe.
I guess I wish for too much and too easy. :)

fdelangre
19-01-14, 17:57
Hello, I am SRY2627. I'm French, and I'm oldest known ancestor in direct male lineage was born in 1580 near Avallon (Yonne, Burgundy, North-Eastern France). My family name "delangre" takes its orgin in the french city of Langres (Haute-Marne, Chapagne, North-eastrn france) in the middle age (ca 13th century)

I don't think that SRY2627 is basque : it could have appear firstly in western France, and then moving north to the british isles, to the south along the french atantic coast (to reach the south-western France, the basque country and Northern Spain). Ad probably small backward moves to the north-east (easten France, Benelux, Germany)

martiko
19-01-14, 18:16
then it is not a card of DF27,
but it is a card of vascon influence M167 / M153 and it is a very interesting card of their expansion.

martiko
19-01-14, 18:21
could they have a card as whole DF27? and not only M153 / 167


R1b1a2a1a2a DF27/S250
• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a* -
• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1 S227/Z195, S355/Z196
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1a S230/Z209, S356/Z220
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1a* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1a1 Z216, S181/Z278
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1a1* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1a1a S348/Z214
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1a1a* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1a1a1 M153
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1b L176.2/S179.2
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1b* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1b1 Z262
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1b1* -
• • • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1b1a M167/SRY2627
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1b2 L165/S68
• • • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1b3 CTS4188
• • • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a1c DF17/S455
• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a2 L617
• • • • • • • • • • • R1b1a2a1a2a3 L881


I do not insist because I see that it would be colossal job ! Help !!

fdelangre
19-01-14, 19:29
map of diffusion of SRY2627 proposed by Victar mas in 2011. I quite agree with that, as it explains the presence of SRY2627 in the british isles, along the french atlantic coasts, northern France, and more rarely in Eastern France, Benelux and Germany (backward migration to the East)

martiko
19-01-14, 21:27
map of diffusion of SRY2627 proposed by Victar mas in 2011. I quite agree with that, as it explains the presence of SRY2627 in the british isles, along the french atlantic coasts, northern France, and more rarely in Eastern France, Benelux and Germany (backward migration to the East)

damage that the mapping is not enlivened with the chronology to show progress from the east towards ends of Europe, what for them was the search of the ends of the earth.

DF Andrews
26-03-14, 00:22
Greetings All!
I am new to the forum. I am still working my way through the SNPs of P312. I reside in Pensacola, Florida USA.
DF Andrews

Robin_Perry
13-04-14, 18:06
Hello, I've recently been y-dna tested by Geno 2.0 and placed in the z198 (more or less equivalent to L176.2?) group under DF27. I am here trying to learn a bit more about my roots. I'm a Yank by birth and do not have a whole lot of family history to proceed with in my search. Thank you for the maps and information! Robin

Hauteville
04-12-14, 13:35
Sarno et al. founded DF27 in Enna (2,5%) and Catania (1,92%).

IberoAtlantid
14-12-14, 16:21
This map says that great part of Andalusia was restocked with Catalans and Basques, for example, I have 2/16 Basques surnames and 2/16 Catalan Surnames :smile:.

Twilight
02-07-15, 01:20
Very doubtful since it is a subclade of P312/S116. I think it represents the first migration of R1b Indo-Europeans from central Europe to south-west Europe, circa 2300 BCE. As I have explained in How did the Basques become R1b ? (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28386-How-did-the-Basques-become-R1b), this R1b migration was probably carried by a group of Indo-European men, adventurers mounted on horses and equipped with bronze weapons in search of easy conquest and loot in Neolithic western Europe. It took over 500 years for the Bronze Age to spread around all Iberia (from 1800 to 1300 BCE) because no proper Bronze Age culture emerged before the wider Atlantic Bronze Age (1300-700 BCE). Before that there were only isolated settlements where bronze weapons have been found, but no evidence of bronze producing societies making use of bronze technologies for everyday life. I believe that this is a sign that for this half millennium Iberia was ruled by warlords of Indo-European (R1b) origin, who had lost their Indo-European language and heritage after a few generations. It is likely that Indo-European languages did not really take hold in Iberia (in the north-west at least) during the Hallstatt expansion around 600 BCE. That doesn't mean that R1b wasn't present in Iberia before that of course. R1b had just become acculturated because of the lack of organised migration of whole tribes with women and children.

It appears that there was a Celtic trade route that went from Tartessos, Spain up into Cornwall; Tin Trade and Cornwall traded with the Irish Celtic Sea. Here is the source of the map below, sorry that I couldn't link the map to you for I couldn't find it anywhere else but here.

Source: Barnes, Ian, Dr. "Celtic Trade." The Historical Atlas of the Celtic World. Edison: Chartwell, 2009. 28-29. Print.

It also looks like Iberian Dna borders on the Irish mainland; this border seems to stretch from Ashford to Cork Harbor. Here is the map http://i1.wp.com/www.cjroots.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/AncestryDNA-Colleen-Greene-Iberian-Peninsula.png

Ron Lindsay
16-08-16, 19:23
I am a new DF27 subscriber to this forum and this is my first post. I am delighted to see the DF27 map and would like to know more about the specific academic studies that provided the support for the placement of DF27 in the geography of Gascon and Iberia. My sincere thanks to all the contributors for all the material that is posted at this site.

Promenade
16-08-16, 19:51
I am a new DF27 subscriber to this forum and this is my first post. I am delighted to see the DF27 map and would like to know more about the specific academic studies that provided the support for the placement of DF27 in the geography of Gascon and Iberia. My sincere thanks to all the contributors for all the material that is posted at this site.

Is Lindsay your surname? I would be curious as well if I my paternal ancestry was from the British isles and I had a predominately Iberian Y-DNA subclade. I don't know Maciamo's source for the map but I checked your Surnames group project on FTDNA and a large number of Lindsay's share your subclade, DF27.

There is also a large Lindsay surname DNA project you may want to look into, http://isogg.org/wiki/Lindsay_Surname_DNA_Project

Ron Lindsay
17-08-16, 02:44
Hi Promenade, thanks for your reply. I am the administrator of the International Lindsay Surname DNA Project which was initiated in 2002 and currently "housed" at the FTDNA web site, with over 290 current participants worldwide. Our Lindsay DNA Groups 2 and 3 are both DF27. I have been further tested positive for ZZ12.1 . You may also wish to take a look at the Lindsay International web site which I created in 2001. I am trying hard to determine who my Lindsays were before they became Lindsays.

Mikewww
25-08-16, 17:20
I had been postponing the creation of this map until more data was available, especially for France and Central Europe. But as this could take years, I've decided to make the map anyway and update it later once new studies will be published. So please take it with a pinch of salt.

The map is mostly based on the data for SRY2627 (M167) and M153. I expect the overall frequency to be higher once other subclades will be brought to light.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-DF27.gif (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#R1b-DF27)

These maps are great. I would like to include them on a couple of the R1b project overview pages so and am happy to cite Eupedia or Maciamo Hay directly as is desired. Is that okay to include this image on project web page, i.e. the R1b-DF27 project, or in the case of R1b overall, the R1b total map for that project?

razyn
29-08-16, 17:20
Is that okay to include this image on project web page, i.e. the R1b-DF27 project

I realize that Mike is an admin too, but as the admin who actually sorts the DF27 project on a day to day basis, I'd like to note that Maciamo's 2013 map of some portion of DF27 is badly out of date, and does not represent either the extent or the percentages of the haplogroup as a whole. His original caption clearly states that it is mostly SRY2627 and M153. Even if a bit more is shown from a couple of academic projects (such as Myres et al, and Busby et al), they were published before comprehensive NextGen sequencing data were available to their authors. Much more representative trees are now available, though maps based on them generally are not.

For example, Alex Williamson's "Big Tree" currently has 523 samples below DF27. 48 of them are SRY2627, and 8 are M153. The rest are neither, and most of them are not reflected in the stats underlying Maciamo's map. Even if we charitably include all of Z198 (near kin of SRY2627), that's only 113. So this 2013 map is missing somewhere between 77% and 89% of DF27 as known to Alex. He just sees what is made available to him, mostly by individual owners of NextGen sequenced kits (plus the 1000 Genomes Project). It is not a scientific sample; but the genetic diversity and geographical spread of DF27 that the Big Tree reveals is no less real, for having largely been volunteered by interested customers of FTDNA and FGC.

I should really like to see a realistic DF27 map, but I have not seen one. Personally, I would rather wait for improvements than to keep linking this early effort all over cyberspace. Improvements in the data are still coming in almost daily, so it's a moving target. It wasn't frozen in 2013, and if try we bring it up to date, it may yet be proven inadequate (when, for instance, France or Romania has a big NextGen project for YDNA).

Also, heat maps tend to make people assume that our contemporary hot spots are pointers to the haplogroup's place of origin. For most haplogroups, that is not the case. People don't normally stay in one area for 5,000 years; they move, now and then. This has happened many times among the subclades of DF27, several of which parted company from one another a few thousand years ago.

Mikewww
29-08-16, 20:29
These maps are great. I would like to include them on a couple of the R1b project overview pages so and am happy to cite Eupedia or Maciamo Hay directly as is desired. Is that okay to include this image on project web page, i.e. the R1b-DF27 project, or in the case of R1b overall, the R1b total map for that project?
The DF27 Pack is probably a bad example, but most of these frequency maps in R1b are fair representations of what scientific studies have surveyed. It's the best the we've got anyway.

Is there any problem with adding one of these graphic map images to a project page, given a a proper citation to Eupedia is included?

Maciamo
29-09-16, 13:23
I have updated the R1b-DF27 map based especially on the data from Valverde et al. (2016) (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n3/full/ejhg2015114a.html), and to a lesser extent Lucotte et al (2015). (http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?PaperID=53754)

The previous map involved a lot of guesswork based on R1b-S116 subclades that excluded L21, U106 and U152, and limited data on M153 and SRY2627. Now the situation is clearer, especially in Spain.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-DF27.png

berun
01-10-16, 14:38
Much caution needed with the Valverde paper; they tested people from Alicante, Madrid and Barcelona, and such cities have levels of 50-60% of people with a recent migratory past, so they are not representative of the regional genetics of lets say the XIX century. In fact Madrid was a little town till it was converted in the Spanish capital in the XVI century, attracting all time people and people from everywhere till reaching the actual 3 milions. For the Basques at least they got the results from those having Basque surnames, and this is a good alternative to obtain real regional DNA keeping out recent additions and admixtures (half of the Basque population and/or their fathers were born in other Spanish regions).

Hauteville
02-10-16, 19:12
There are some SRY2627 also in Italy, you can see it into Boattini, Sarno and Tofanelli studies. I've a contact from Piemonte who has got this haplogroup.

razyn
04-10-16, 02:21
I have updated the R1b-DF27 map

Thanks very much for the update, I'll link it in places that ought to know.

You should, in turn, be aware that within the past month there has been an aDNA breakthrough of sorts. The first, and so far the only undisputed, ancient DNA example of DF27 has been detected in sample I0806, a carbon-14 dated Bell Beaker burial (in a predominantly Corded Ware cemetery) in Quedlinburg, Germany. This is northeast of any pink area on your latest map; but it's just one middle-aged guy, born about 4300 years ago. That's several thousand years too old, and a few months too recently discovered, to have affected 21st century academic publications (or heat maps based on them) in any way. Probably the best place to read up on it is here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?827-Where-did-DF27-originate-and-when-and-how-did-it-expand&p=186674&viewfull=1#post186674

Some of the subsequent posting on that thread is off-topic; but it is where I (and others) try to paste in useful links to discoveries, publications, or posts elsewhere that are pertinent to this map and discussion.

A. Papadimitriou
04-10-16, 02:59
I have updated the R1b-DF27 map based especially on the data from Valverde et al. (2016) (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n3/full/ejhg2015114a.html), and to a lesser extent Lucotte et al (2015). (http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?PaperID=53754)

The previous map involved a lot of guesswork based on R1b-S116 subclades that excluded L21, U106 and U152, and limited data on M153 and SRY2627. Now the situation is clearer, especially in Spain.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-DF27.png

What study found it in Greece?

The guy from the Greek FTDNA project who has it must be Arvanite or Vlach but not from there supposedly.
Maybe Arvanite of Catalan origin. It would make sense for those who know Greek history, although it would seem weird.

Belmonde
25-10-16, 01:08
2016 results from Family Tree indicate a frequency of R-DF27 at up to 12% in England in certain districts.

In most English regions R-DF27 is above 5%.

Ron Lindsay
25-10-16, 05:04
Hi Belmonde,

When you state "Family Tree" ... I assume you are referring to Family Tree DNA laboratory in Houston ... will you tell me where you find this type information at FTDNA?

Hauteville
25-10-16, 10:11
What study found it in Greece?

The guy from the Greek FTDNA project who has it must be Arvanite or Vlach but not from there supposedly.
Maybe Arvanite of Catalan origin. It would make sense for those who know Greek history, although it would seem weird.

I guess for these ducats, they were not directly possessions of Kingdom of Aragon but of Kingdom of Sicily but in our army there were a sizeable number of Catalan and Aragonese soldiers and some Catalan merchants who settled in Neopatria too:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Neopatras

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Athens

Maciamo
25-10-16, 11:21
2016 results from Family Tree indicate a frequency of R-DF27 at up to 12% in England in certain districts.

In most English regions R-DF27 is above 5%.

You may be right. Data on DF27 was very sparse until recently. There hasn't been any academic paper testing it in the British Isles. So I went to FTDNA's R1b project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b?iframe=ymap) and counted all R1b subclades for each region and calculate frequencies myself. Here is what I got.

Scotland (n=272)

DF27 : 7.5%
L21 : 60.5%
U152 : 6.5%
U106 : 17%
Other R1b : 4.5%

Northern Ireland (n=134)

DF27 : 10.5%
L21 : 68.5%
U152 : 4.5%
U106 : 10.5%
Other R1b : 4.5%

Ireland (n=270)

DF27 : 5.5%
L21 : 81.5%
U152 : 2%
U106 : 9%
Other R1b : 2%

Wales (n=29)

DF27 : 10.5%
L21 : 48.5%
U152 : 3.5%
U106 : 27.5%
Other R1b : 10.5%

SW England (n=136)

DF27 : 15.5%
L21 : 23.5%
U152 : 6.5%
U106 : 37.5%
Other R1b : 17%

SE England (n=109)

DF27 : 15.5%
L21 : 25.5%
U152 : 13%
U106 : 34%
Other R1b : 12.5%

East Anglia (n=46)

DF27 : 13.5%
L21 : 21.5%
U152 : 19.5%
U106 : 27%
Other R1b : 8.5%

Midlands (n=142)

DF27 : 17.5%
L21 : 29.5%
U152 : 10.5%
U106 : 33%
Other R1b : 9%

Northern England (n=72)

DF27 : 16.5%
L21 : 23.5%
U152 : 14%
U106 : 33.5%
Other R1b : 12.5%


Keep in mind that these are only percentages within R1b, not the frequency in the total population. But anyway I will need to update the map again. The actual frequencies of R1b-DF27 should be approximately this:

Scotland: 5.5% (but very little of it in the Highlands)
Northern Ireland: 7.5%
Ireland: 4.5%
Wales: 7.5% (not representative considering the low sample size)
Northern England: 9-11%
Midlands: 11%
East Anglia: 7.5%
SE England: 10%
SW England : 11%

Maciamo
25-10-16, 12:02
I have now updated the map. I also revised the frequencies upward for northern and eastern France, the Benelux, southwest Germany, Switzerland and northern Italy, based on the FTDNA R1b Project. It might even be higher as southwest Germany and Switzerland show almost as much DF27 as U106 and U152! In Belgium, the Brabant DNA Project only tested U106 and U152 but found a remaining 21% of R1b-P312, and surely less than half is L21. Data for France is still despairingly sparse.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-DF27.png

Hauteville
25-10-16, 12:56
I think DF27 in Sicily came via mainland Italian repopulation (a significant number of the settlers moved from north west Italy too) after muslim expulsion more than with Aragonese and Catalan merchants and soldiers.

Maciamo
25-10-16, 13:00
I think DF27 in Sicily came via mainland Italian repopulation (a significant number of the settlers moved from north west Italy too) after muslim expulsion more than with Aragonese and Catalan merchants and soldiers.

Or from the Normans...

Hauteville
25-10-16, 13:03
Could also be possible and these mainland Italians came with Normans-Swabians indeed. Around 15 inland cities have also nowadays a typical North Italian influenced dialect and the Sicilian language has many words derived from gallo-romance (North Italiand and French) even if we are italo-romance speaking.

berun
25-10-16, 15:52
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_language

Local languages usualy reflect ancient superstrates, and maybe such influence could paralel the Y DNA influence, and if so the Norman DNA share would be scanty (as in time and vocabulary).

Hauteville
25-10-16, 16:01
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_language

Local languages usualy reflect ancient superstrates, and maybe such influence could paralel the Y DNA influence, and if so the Norman DNA share would be scanty (as in time and vocabulary).
There is more Provençal, Northern Italian and Tuscan influences in modern Sicilian than Norman or Germanic who are also present both as dialect and as Y-DNA, especially in the western part of the island, who has high I and Catania has one of the peaks of R1b U106 in Italy according to Sarno et al. The first mentioned together with other mainland Italians played a role in the repopoulation of the island. One of my surname's family is common in North Italy too, and my paternal surname is present all over Italy.

Aaron1981
25-10-16, 17:17
DF27+ is a wide ranging group that extends from Portugal to the highlands of eastern Armenia. Some of the Nordvedt so-called "N-S cluster" have a completely north European distribution, even though they are just a few steps upstream of the branches common amongst *modern* Basque speakers. To the best of my knowledge, M153, or Z214 (xM153) will be the common type of N-S cluster amongst these guys.

berun
25-10-16, 17:25
What study found it in Greece?

The guy from the Greek FTDNA project who has it must be Arvanite or Vlach but not from there supposedly.
Maybe Arvanite of Catalan origin. It would make sense for those who know Greek history, although it would seem weird.

The most simple explanation is that the Greek spot would be the product of the Almogàvers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Company)(Catalan mercenaries); the Byzantine emperor Andronicus II hired such mercenaries to fight against the Turks, but with such success that his son Michael IX feared the treaty that the mercenaries would get the half of his empire, so that he did a complot to kill them... but the surviving soldiers got a punitive vengeance and massacre. After such actions they founded a military republic (like that of the Crusaders but in Orthodox territory), people there remembered them as wrongdoers.

https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venjan%C3%A7a_Catalana

Belmonde
25-10-16, 18:06
There is the data of FTDNA that was published a few months ago


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d1/09/43/d109434a9e66aad55a8b10c4677dbba3.png

Maciamo
31-10-16, 09:45
There is the data of FTDNA that was published a few months ago


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d1/09/43/d109434a9e66aad55a8b10c4677dbba3.png


Thanks for sharing. The DF27 frequencies are a bit lower in this table than what I calculated above because I excluded all R1b results that were not tested for subclades.

Cyrano37
19-04-17, 09:07
Hello DNA-world. My name is Vic van Lijf and my family comes from Maastricht, since 1670. (Where d'Artagnan died outside the walls) The name Lijf is the dialect form of Leuven, the Belgian University town. My DNA is R1b-cts4549, what I found in a few steps testing. I started genealogy because of the strange name: Lijf in Dutch means body but all names with "van" are toponyms. And, indeed, ultimately is was Leuven. I am still having tested 2 other members of my ancestry-tree. Waiting for results.

Olympus Mons
03-05-17, 22:20
@maciano,Not that it really matters. But when is it going to happen that drawing maps of R1B in Portugal is it going to be correct and show the most southern region of Portugal as over 70% r1b? Actually the two most higher R1b percentages in Portugal are south of Tagus river (setubal) and in the most southern region (algarve). True that 100 km region of Alentejo is only 40% r1b and has almost all haplos. But this maps of yours should be correct. Sort of as on purpose to tell "they never get there"... see the visual impact?

DuPidh
03-05-17, 23:02
What study found it in Greece?

The guy from the Greek FTDNA project who has it must be Arvanite or Vlach but not from there supposedly.
Maybe Arvanite of Catalan origin. It would make sense for those who know Greek history, although it would seem weird.
Catalan! Albanians don't appear on this map having this subclade! Interesting how mixed Greece is! how long did Catalans stay in Greece?

suebiking
03-05-17, 23:47
@maciano,Not that it really matters. But when is it going to happen that drawing maps of R1B in Portugal is it going to be correct and show the most southern region of Portugal as over 70% r1b? Actually the two most higher R1b percentages in Portugal are south of Tagus river (setubal) and in the most southern region (algarve). True that 100 km region of Alentejo is only 40% r1b and has almost all haplos. But this maps of yours should be correct. Sort of as on purpose to tell "they never get there"... see the visual impact?


Interesting, I never would have thought of those percentages for the Algarve region. Do we have enough samples to get a good resolution, if so then what could account for that? I am very well versed in portuguese history and the supposed R1b bearers would have settled mostly in the "Entre-Douro-e-Minho"(Galacians) and the Alentejo region (Celtici). In my long-held opinion, the southernmost areas of Portugal were massively depopulated and settled by christians from the north. That could be the reason for such high proportion of r1b, a kind of founder effect where the men that came to the algarve were mostly R1b. Still very interesting.

PS: The Lusitani are still a debated issue but I think that if not celtic they were indo-european at least.

PunhetaDeBacalhau
04-05-17, 00:05
Interesting, I never would have thought of those percentages for the Algarve region. Do we have enough samples to get a good resolution, if so then what could account for that? I am very well versed in portuguese history and the supposed R1b bearers would have settled mostly in the "Entre-Douro-e-Minho"(Galacians) and the Alentejo region (Celtici). In my long-held opinion, the southernmost areas of Portugal were massively depopulated and settled by christians from the north. That could be the reason for such high proportion of r1b, a kind of founder effect where the men that came to the algarve were mostly R1b. Still very interesting.

PS: The Lusitani are still a debated issue but I think that if not celtic they were indo-european at least.

I think he took the percentages from the paper Beleza et. al 2006. These:

"https://s26.postimg.org/4pjmadr2x/y-dna_Portugal.png"

Olympus Mons
04-05-17, 10:50
@Punhetadebacalhau,
Correct.

@suebiking,
with 76 in Algarve and 78 in Setubal, and both not having at all later R1b3f (later Val d'Aran type) to me its obvious. They were in Algarve for a very long time. The result of the Turduli tribes. Portuguese are most Turduli (even tough turduli could be later also called Lusitanians). Turduli were the remaining of the arrival population from 3300bc that blocked the passage to the left bank of Guadiana and hence made the birth of Portugal. That moment defined Portuguese history (or pre-history) Portuguese own their existence to whomever settled in Mercador, Paraiso, juromenha, and blocked passage to big places such as Porto Torrão, Perdigoes, etc.

Well see http://r1b2westerneurope.blogs.sapo.pt/ and to a very ancient dive http://shulaveri2bellbeaker.blogs.sapo.pt/

Great read for summer this here at the beach. :)