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View Full Version : New map of R1b-ht35 (L23, L51, L11, Z2103)



Maciamo
02-08-13, 20:16
Here is a new map showing the Proto-Indo-European R1b, as well Greek and Anatolian branches of Indo-European people, including the Hittites, Lydians, Phrygians and Armenians. The Trojans also probably belonged to this group. This branch of R1b is the first that emerged from the Pontic Steppe and therefore expanded from the Balkans and Carpathians. It includes R1b-L23/S141, its subclade L51/M412/S167, and its two subclades L11/S127/L151 (in central an northern Europe) and Z2103 (in Anatolia and Assyria). Altogether they are known as 'haplotype 35' (ht35), as opposed to the Western European 'haplotype 15', which comprises the Proto-Italo-Celtic P312/S116 and the Proto-Germanic U106/S21.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L23.gif (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#R1b-L23)

Sile
02-08-13, 22:13
Here is a new map showing the Proto-Indo-European R1b, as well Greek and Anatolian branches of Indo-European people, including the Hittites, Lydians, Phrygians and Armenians. The Trojans also probably belonged to this group. This branch of R1b is the first that emerged from the Pontic Steppe and therefore expanded from the Balkans and Carpathians. It includes R1b-L23/S141, its subclade L51/M412/S167, and its two subclades L11/S127/L151 (in central an northern Europe) and Z2103 (in Anatolia and Assyria). Altogether they are known as 'haplotype 35' (ht35), as opposed to the Western European 'haplotype 15', which comprises the Proto-Italo-Celtic P312/S116 and the Proto-Germanic U106/S21.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L23.gif (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#R1b-L23)

Too late for Colchians? or not

- seems like some type of maritime people from the Black Sea.
- The southern Italy, Peloponnese, albania fits with the Greek Corinthian settlements. Maybe carried along later with phoenicians ( but I see NO central and western North African numbers

LeBrok
03-08-13, 07:11
I hope it can unite Greeks and Albanians a bit. :)

Sennevini
04-08-13, 14:38
If the higher frequency along the mediterranean coast can be attributed to the Greek colonies, then I think chances are high this haplogroup spread along the Danube, thinning in frequency in favour of it's derived groups upstream.

MOESAN
04-08-13, 16:02
If the higher frequency along the mediterranean coast can be attributed to the Greek colonies, then I think chances are high this haplogroup spread along the Danube, thinning in frequency in favour of it's derived groups upstream.

I agree
without being sure, I think since a long enough time that 2 waves had entered Europe, one by South (Dardanelles: between Abatolia and Balkans) and one by North, and then north pontic region and Danau River - the difference with the present theory is that I thought the more northern branch took the eastern coasts of Caspian Sea rather than the Caucasus path...maybe was I wrong?

Luan
04-08-13, 18:06
Finally got to see this map, was very curious.

InukCanuck
04-08-13, 23:19
Do you have a version of the map showing the distribution of R1B-L11*? I am having a very hard time finding studies which explicitely differentiate my haplotype from the great sub-clades downstream (U106 and P312). There is a facebook group run by Adrian Ballard consisting entirely of L11* members. If you have this clade feel free to join if you want to learn more about our individual genealogy.

Eldritch
05-08-13, 01:36
Irregular but widespread distribution.

Maciamo
05-08-13, 10:00
Do you have a version of the map showing the distribution of R1B-L11*? I am having a very hard time finding studies which explicitely differentiate my haplotype from the great sub-clades downstream (U106 and P312). There is a facebook group run by Adrian Ballard consisting entirely of L11* members. If you have this clade feel free to join if you want to learn more about our individual genealogy.

Hardly any Y-DNA studies to date have tested the L11 marker, which explains why there is so little data at the moment. In general if you don't see a map made for one particular subclade it is because there is no enough data. Even combining L23, L51 and L11 together it was very hard to find the necessary data.

Sile
05-08-13, 11:52
Hardly any Y-DNA studies to date have tested the L11 marker, which explains why there is so little data at the moment. In general if you don't see a map made for one particular subclade it is because there is no enough data. Even combining L23, L51 and L11 together it was very hard to find the necessary data.

this might help, it split L23 from L51 areas

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1RIQRMwAdjpVVZRRUhDTE91M1U/edit?pli=1

Tone
05-08-13, 18:51
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L23.gif (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#R1b-L23)

http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af129/txumi_ledauno/StelaePeople_zps24790e03.jpg

While correlation does not necessarily mean causation....

I see Stelae People.

Dubhthach
05-08-13, 19:31
Hardly any Y-DNA studies to date have tested the L11 marker, which explains why there is so little data at the moment. In general if you don't see a map made for one particular subclade it is because there is no enough data. Even combining L23, L51 and L11 together it was very hard to find the necessary data.

Busby paper on M269 had data for the following:

M269
L51 (S167)
M269 (L11-) -- S127-
L11+ (S127)
L11+ (U106-, P312-) -- S127+ (S21-, S116-)


You could use that to provide some data points for L11*

Mikewww
07-08-13, 21:51
Here is a new map showing the Proto-Indo-European R1b, as well Greek and Anatolian branches of Indo-European people, including the Hittites, Lydians, Phrygians and Armenians. The Trojans also probably belonged to this group. This branch of R1b is the first that emerged from the Pontic Steppe and therefore expanded from the Balkans and Carpathians. It includes R1b-L23/S141, its subclade L51/M412/S167, and its two subclades L11/S127/L151 (in central an northern Europe) and Z2103 (in Anatolia and Assyria). Altogether they are known as 'haplotype 35' (ht35), as opposed to the Western European 'haplotype 15', which comprises the Proto-Italo-Celtic P312/S116 and the Proto-Germanic U106/S21

Thanks for the map.

To what (which data) do you attribute the light frequency spot in Turkey right above Iraq? This looks like old Greater Armenia lands and we've found a lot of R1b-L23xL51 among Armenians.

Goga
08-08-13, 00:33
Thanks for the map.

To what (which data) do you attribute the light frequency spot in Turkey right above Iraq? This looks like old Greater Armenia lands and we've found a lot of R1b-L23xL51 among Armenians.The area you're talking about is NorthWest Kurdistan. Original land of the ancient Kurds (Sumerians, Mitanni etc.) and not Armenians. Kurdish ancestors like Sumerians who later became Mitanni (and proto-Iranic Mitanni became the Iranic Medes, direct ancestors of the Kurds) lived already there, before Armenian ethnicity existed. So, nothing 'Armenian' about this land..

LeBrok
08-08-13, 02:45
The area you're talking about is NorthWest Kurdistan Original land of the ancient Kurds (Sumerians, Mitanni etc.) and not Armenians.Either there were Sumerians or Mitanni, or ancient Kurds. What is the date we can read Kurd name?
Your statement doesn't make sense. There were no Kurds back then, no Kurdish culture either, and no Kurds name. There might be some continuity from Mitanni and Sumerians to Kruds, but let's stress "some". Exactly by same logic there might be some continuity from Sumerians to Armenians, and let's stick with "some".

Mitanni (and proto-Iranic Mitanni became the Iranic Medes, direct ancestors of the Kurds) lived already there, before Armenian ethnicity existed. And before Kurdish ethnicity existed, right?

Get off your Kurdish horse and try being objective for a change. Give other ethnicities some room to live too, because for the rest of us being Kurd is no more special that being Armenian.

Goga
08-08-13, 03:40
Yeah, I do agree with you that all ethnicities around South Caucasus have some degree of Sumerian DNA in them, since there's lots of J2a in that region. So, of course Kurds and Armenians share some (J2a) ancestors. Most folks in West Asia have Kurdish DNA.

According to me Sumerians belonged for a very important part to hg. J2a and probably R1a. Sumerians lived before Mitanni. So after Sumerians stopped calling themselves Sumerians they became known as Mitanni. I believe that Mitanni also belonged for a very important part to hg. J2a and R1a. Like Sumerians, also Mitanni were SUN worshipers. The Medes came later, right after the (ethnic) name of Mitanni vanished from Kurdistan. The first person that called himself a 'Mede' was born in the same area where the last Mitanni was disappeared (extinct). The Mitanni passed their haplogroups to the Medes. Later in history the Medes gave birth to modern-day Kurds. And Kurds still have those hg. J2a and R1a-Z93 of the ancient Sumerians.
There're many links between native Kurdish religions (Yezidism, Mithraism (Zoroastrians) etc.) and the religion of the Sumerians. All those people were/are the SUN 'worshippers'.
Kurdish culture, tradition is Iranic. Kurdish language is modern Iranic language. So at the time of the Mitanni and the Medes, there was already a 'proto-Kurdish' culture/tradition and a 'proto-Kurdish' language.

The Sumerians in Kurdistan became Mitanni, the Mitanni became Medes, and the Medes became Kurds. At the time when Armenia became known in Europe by the Roman Empire, parts of Kurdistan (NorthEast Anatolia) and proto-Kurdish people were vassal regions of Armenia. But the majority of the citizens in those vassal states were Kurds.
I believe that right after the name of the Medes disappeared from history their children became known as Kurds (KurManji = sons of Medes).

Mikewww
08-08-13, 04:36
To what (which data) do you attribute the light frequency spot in Turkey right above Iraq? This looks like old Greater Armenia lands and we've found a lot of R1b-L23xL51 among Armenians.

The area you're talking about is NorthWest Kurdistan. Original land of the ancient Kurds (Sumerians, Mitanni etc.) and not Armenians. Kurdish ancestors like Sumerians who later became Mitanni (and proto-Iranic Mitanni became the Iranic Medes, direct ancestors of the Kurds) lived already there, before Armenian ethnicity existed. So, nothing 'Armenian' about this land..

Sorry, I'm not trying to take land away from anyone. I was just looking at the map of the old Kingdom of Armenia which overlaps into the geo-cultural Kurdistan region (in different timeframes). There are other overlaps too.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Maps_of_the_Armenian_Empire_of_Tigranes.gif

Regardless, I still have the question - what is causing the lighter showing in the general vicinity of Eastern/Central Turkey on Maciamo's map?

Goga
08-08-13, 05:22
Sorry, I'm not trying to take land away from anyone. I was just looking at the map of the old Kingdom of Armenia which overlaps into the geo-cultural Kurdistan region (in different timeframes). There are other overlaps too.And I'm sorry for my overreaction.


Regardless, I still have the question - what is causing the lighter showing in the general vicinity of Eastern/Central Turkey on Maciamo's map?The relative high distribution of I2a & R1a (+ R2a) in North Kurdistan is pushing the average distribution of R1b down.

Mikewww
08-08-13, 06:08
The relative high distribution of I2a & R1a (+ R2a) in North Kurdistan is pushing the average distribution of R1b down.

Thanks. What study are you looking at to see this data?

Sile
08-08-13, 07:59
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Maps_of_the_Armenian_Empire_of_Tigranes.gif

Regardless, I still have the question - what is causing the lighter showing in the general vicinity of Eastern/Central Turkey on Maciamo's map?

The Cimmerians occupied cappodocia where this "spot " is, FROM anywhere between 700BC-600BC to later . They brought I2a1 into the area as this was their main marker.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians#cite_note-2

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians#cite_note-2)http://www.v-stetsyuk.name/en/Scythian/Cimmer.html

kostop
08-08-13, 15:48
Here is a new map showing the Proto-Indo-European R1b, as well Greek and Anatolian branches of Indo-European people, including the Hittites, Lydians, Phrygians and Armenians. The Trojans also probably belonged to this group.

Is there any ancient y-dna data that confirms this?
Which population brought ht35 to Greece? Was it the Mycenaeans, Arcadians, Ionians or the Dorians? Also, what about the Pelasgians? Little is known about them, and according to historians the Pelasgian population mixed with the subsequent waves of migrants, therefore it is hard to know who they were genetically. And if the Ionians or the Dorians brought R1b to Greece, then who brought J2? (which is carried by a huge part of the population, ancient and modern as indicated by its presence in most areas associated with ancient Greek colonisation).
I am not questioning or doubting your statement, just thinking out loudly, as I have been wondering about this for some time.

Silesian
14-08-13, 16:18
Is there any ancient y-dna data that confirms this?
Which population brought ht35 to Greece? Was it the Mycenaeans, Arcadians, Ionians or the Dorians? Also, what about the Pelasgians? Little is known about them, and according to historians the Pelasgian population mixed with the subsequent waves of migrants, therefore it is hard to know who they were genetically. And if the Ionians or the Dorians brought R1b to Greece, then who brought J2? (which is carried by a huge part of the population, ancient and modern as indicated by its presence in most areas associated with ancient Greek colonisation).
I am not questioning or doubting your statement, just thinking out loudly, as I have been wondering about this for some time.

Yes there are links to show. Under ten post count will not allow me to show links. If you like I can pm you. However the map should be updated especially the Eastern regions, like Mede proper where no R1b L51 has been found. It is important to make this distinction as it is a different branch altogether found also in Africa at various elevated frequencies unlike R1b Z2103. R1b Z2103 is found in: Ancient Mede proper/Ancient Assyrians /Ancient Greece proper including Lashitti plateau, and Aegean Islands / Ancient Anatolia/Armenia proper /Albania/ Bulgaria/Moldavia/Ukraine(also called Trans-Dniestr or Transdniestria region)/Komi/Ossetian, Digor/Bashkir/Northern Pakistan.

kostop
18-08-13, 15:56
Yes there are links to show. Under ten post count will not allow me to show links. If you like I can pm you. However the map should be updated especially the Eastern regions, like Mede proper where no R1b L51 has been found. It is important to make this distinction as it is a different branch altogether found also in Africa at various elevated frequencies unlike R1b Z2103. R1b Z2103 is found in: Ancient Mede proper/Ancient Assyrians /Ancient Greece proper including Lashitti plateau, and Aegean Islands / Ancient Anatolia/Armenia proper /Albania/ Bulgaria/Moldavia/Ukraine(also called Trans-Dniestr or Transdniestria region)/Komi/Ossetian, Digor/Bashkir/Northern Pakistan.

That is very interesting. If you could pm the links it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Silesian
18-08-13, 21:53
That is very interesting. If you could pm the links it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Various studies have different size data sets. In order to see spikes you can compare multiple studies. For example.

Im not at 10 posts so it restricts me from posting links here is an example. Yes will p.m.

kostop
21-08-13, 11:26
Various studies have different size data sets. In order to see spikes you can compare multiple studies. For example.

Im not at 10 posts so it restricts me from posting links here is an example. Yes will p.m.










Thanks, much appreciated.

Silesian
24-08-13, 07:40
Thanks, much appreciated.

Working on it!

Silesian
27-08-13, 16:31
The place of Armenian in the Indo-European language family: the relationship with Greek and Indo-Iranian*

The material presented here, albeit not exhaustive, allows to preliminarily conclude that Armenian, Greek, (Phrygian) and Indo-Iranian were dialectally close to each other. Within this hypothetical dialect group, Proto-Armenian was situated between Proto-Greek (to the west) and Proto-Indo-Iranian (to the east).http://exadmin.matita.net/uploads/pagine/246390155_Martirosyan_PlaceArmen_JLR_2013_FINAL.pd f


(http://exadmin.matita.net/uploads/pagine/246390155_Martirosyan_PlaceArmen_JLR_2013_FINAL.pd f)Karabakh and Syunik-- (http://exadmin.matita.net/uploads/pagine/246390155_Martirosyan_PlaceArmen_JLR_2013_FINAL.pd f)


it shows a 15% concentration of R1b1a2a in a Northern swath of Anatolia - with a peak of 25% in the middle of the swath. The studies on which the map makers drew sampled broadly in the region including Turks, Kurds, Georgians and Azeris. If you sample only Armenians, you get a concentration of 30% of R1b1a2. If you sample only Armenians from Karabakh and Syunik you get concentrations of more than 40%.

(http://exadmin.matita.net/uploads/pagine/246390155_Martirosyan_PlaceArmen_JLR_2013_FINAL.pd f)http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx?section=news




(http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx?section=news)

Silesian
27-08-13, 16:47
http://www.wall-maps.com/classroom/history/earlyeurope/greek&phoeniciancolonies.jpg






Areas in Anatolia where Greek colonies were also had Hittites and Phrygians.

Southwestern Anatolian languages

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Anatolian_03.png



The Hittites (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites) called it the Maraššantiya. It formed the western boundary of Hatti, the core land of the Hittite empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_empire).


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Turkey-kizilirmak.svg

Silesian
27-08-13, 17:20
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0056775

Table S6 you can get a broad sample data set of R1b L23[51] and then parse results with other studies showing elevated results among groups or in general regions.

For example you can parse data set by comparing 2 or more studies,in Arabian Peninsula showing 1.67% R1b-L23 Rib in A.P. column and compare with recent Grugni et al study, in North Western Iran.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252

Groups like Azeri/Gilaki/Lurs some located in same region as Armenian R1b. and Talysh in Roewer et al study.

Bakht 46 7% Indo-Iranian (IE) Luri Roewer et al.
S_Tlsh 18 44% Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh Roewer et al.
Gilak 43 23% Indo-Iranian (IE) Gilaki Roewer et al.
Mazan 46 15% Indo-Iranian (IE) Mazandarani Roewer et al.
N_Tlsh 43 19% Indo-Iranian (IE) Talysh Roewer et al.

Ike
27-08-13, 19:10
There is no area with 30-40 %

MOESAN
12-10-13, 17:42
MACIAMO, I would like a map of percentages of Y-R1b-L51* and L-51 downtreams compared to Y-R1b-L23* and upstreams: it would be even more striking, would not it?

MOESAN
22-10-13, 10:09
Too late for Colchians? or not

- seems like some type of maritime people from the Black Sea.
- The southern Italy, Peloponnese, albania fits with the Greek Corinthian settlements. Maybe carried along later with phoenicians ( but I see NO central and western North African numbers

what link with Phoenicians??? look at the Lebanon %s!

adamo
22-10-13, 18:45
Looks to me like L23 was spread by an R1b form of proto-Armenians or something....I'm surprised by the frequencies across Craq and Iran....can anyone tell me more about the origins of R1b-L23?

Hauteville
30-11-14, 12:23
An italian page is collecting samples from all Italy and this subclade is founded in Reggio Calabria and Catania (and one case near Foggia). Greek heritage?

ballardgen
30-11-14, 14:53
L11* is too old and undefined for my purposes of Genetic Genealogy BUT I have been "Name Origin" mapping with a group under P311+ CTS4528/DF100 the results have been mapped on my project site. So far the results show a young Flemish group and an older group that splits between British Isles and Germany - this study is ongoing and dynamic so may change as we gather more samples but is interesting nonetheless.

DF100 & CTS4528 & S14328 Private Genetic Genealogy Project Manager

sites.google.com/site/cts4528/

Meazzano
01-12-14, 11:39
An italian page is collecting samples from all Italy and this subclade is founded in Reggio Calabria and Catania (and one case near Foggia). Greek heritage?

I'm the case near Foggia. But there is a question: Northern Apulia wasn't colonized by greeks. The only greek colony in Apulia is Taranto, quite far from Cerignola and Andria (homeland of Montingelli, my surname). Any answers? than kyou

Hauteville
01-12-14, 11:44
Yes i would expect this subclade more common in Taranto and the Salento (Gallipoli, Otranto, Santa Maria di Leuca was also greek colonies and in Salento there are today 10.000 greek-speaking http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoranza_linguistica_greca_d%27Italia) perhaps (it's my opinion eh) your ancestor on paternal side was from Taranto or Salento. It's difficult to say but expect other opinions.

Meazzano
02-12-14, 11:34
Yes i would expect this subclade more common in Taranto and the Salento (Gallipoli, Otranto, Santa Maria di Leuca was also greek colonies and in Salento there are today 10.000 greek-speaking perhaps (it's my opinion eh) your ancestor on paternal side was from Taranto or Salento. It's difficult to say but expect other opinions.

Maybe..but in Northern Apulia greeks didn't settle...any other influences? Roman bring only R1b-U152?

Hauteville
03-12-14, 19:41
I've noticed that L23 seems to be more common where the people from Chalkis founded colonies in Magna Grecia.

Meazzano
03-12-14, 23:45
I've noticed that L23 seems to be more common where the people from Chalkis founded colonies in Magna Grecia.

Chalkis?

(Hai facebook? così ne parliamo di là)

Hauteville
03-12-14, 23:48
This city. http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcide

Meazzano
05-12-14, 00:14
This city


Understood, but there is no greek colony in northern apulia.

Orillion
17-12-14, 15:57
Thank you for this ht35 map!
When looking for R1b haplotype in Western Europe, you usually find ht15 maps, but not ht35, so this one is very useful.
Thanks to the others for the insight on Anatolian history, it's very interesting.

Dorianfinder
18-02-15, 10:37
this might help, it split L23 from L51 areas

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B1RIQRMwAdjpVVZRRUhDTE91M1U/edit?pli=1

On page 7 of this article there are a number of haplotypes. I am particularly interested in haplotype 2 which was discovered in 8 study participants. Do you perhaps know where these participants were from? I assume Armenians are the first two modal haplotypes (1 & 2) as they are the majority. But this is mere speculation on my part.

Twilight
30-03-15, 02:45
http://www.wall-maps.com/classroom/history/earlyeurope/greek&phoeniciancolonies.jpg







Areas in Anatolia where Greek colonies were also had Hittites and Phrygians.

Southwestern Anatolian languages

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Anatolian_03.png





https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Turkey-kizilirmak.svg


I think the Carians and Lycians Are apart of he Arzawaian complex that rivaled the Hittites but I could be wrong.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arzawa

On a speculative note I'm sure that the Hittites homesteaded in Western Anatolia but not in mass numbers since the Arzawians and the Hittites didn't get along all that good.

Unless if the Hittites killed all of the Arazawian men and sold all of woman and children into slavery, doubt the R1b Z103 Hittites would have made it as far as Spain and Ireland without getting Petered out if the Hittites had kids with the Lydians a Carians

I'm quite curious to see how the ancient Greeks and Hittites viewed the origins of the Carian and Lydians.

noUseForAname
17-06-15, 16:06
Here is a new map showing the Proto-Indo-European R1b, as well Greek and Anatolian branches of Indo-European people, including the Hittites, Lydians, Phrygians and Armenians. The Trojans also probably belonged to this group. This branch of R1b is the first that emerged from the Pontic Steppe and therefore expanded from the Balkans and Carpathians. It includes R1b-L23/S141, its subclade L51/M412/S167, and its two subclades L11/S127/L151 (in central an northern Europe) and Z2103 (in Anatolia and Assyria). Altogether they are known as 'haplotype 35' (ht35), as opposed to the Western European 'haplotype 15', which comprises the Proto-Italo-Celtic P312/S116 and the Proto-Germanic U106/S21.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L23.gif (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#R1b-L23)


Maciamo, i think you might need to update a map a bit?.....Kosovo has a bit more R1b than Albania





Population
--------------------------


Albanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians)(Kosovar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovar_Albanian))
Language
------------

IE (Albanian)
N
------


114
R1b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA))
-------


21.10
R1a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a_(Y-DNA))
-------


4.42
I
-----------

I1=5.31
I2a2=2.65
E-V13
---------


47.37
J
---------


J2=16.7
G
-----


0
N
---


0
T
---


0
Others
----------------


P[xQ,R1]=1.77
Reference
----------------------


Pericic2005[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Pericic2005-3)

















Albanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians)
IE (Albanian)
55
18.2
9.1
I1=3.6
I2a=14.5
I2b=3.6
27.5
J1=3.6
J2=20.0
1.8
0.0
0.0

Battaglia2008[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Battaglia2008-5)





Region/Haplogroup
I1
I2*/I2a
I2b
R1a
R1b
G
J2
J*/J1
E1b1b
T
Q
N
Sample size


Albania
2
12
1.5
9
16
1.5
19.5
2
27.5
1
0
0




Kosovo
5.5
2.5
0
4.5
21
0
16.5
0
47.5
0
0
0



http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Silesian
22-06-15, 18:31
There is no area with 30-40 %
Yes and it's called Yamnaya!

Ike
24-06-15, 21:29
Yes and it's called Yamnaya!

But not on the map. The only place where you can see that color is inside that black square.

Silesian
25-06-15, 15:49
But not on the map. The only place where you can see that color is inside that black square.
Yes your right; good catch:good_job:

Twilight
03-11-16, 03:23
Interesting talk about R1b-ht35 However I'd like to turn my attention to this subclade uniformically spread throughout Northern Europe; Celto-Germanic/Slavic territory I might add. Was there ancient trade going on between Greek/Anatolian deep into the Forested "Barbarian lands" or was there an archeological culture that spread R1b-Ht35 into Northern Europe; for instance Urnfield Culture or Corded Ware Culture?

MOESAN
11-11-16, 16:01
Based on %s this map shows the H35 % among Y-R1b; not an absolute percentage - and the less H35 zone is labelled between 1 and 5%; in strong density lands for R1b with, say, 1 àr 1,5%, this H35 can be a "local" old upstram part (unmutated or supposed so, ancestral), not an intruder from South or South-East? Try to know...

MOESAN
11-11-16, 16:02
I will say: not a MORE RECENT intruder.

Ownstyler
03-07-18, 02:29
I'm the case near Foggia. But there is a question: Northern Apulia wasn't colonized by greeks. The only greek colony in Apulia is Taranto, quite far from Cerignola and Andria (homeland of Montingelli, my surname). Any answers? than kyou

It could be a line from BA Central Europe, spreading with Italic peoples. Otherwise, maybe Illyrian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapygians#/media/File:Illyrian_colonies_in_Italy_550_BC_(English)_( simple_map).svg.

Do you know which exact sublclade you belong to?

noUseForAname
07-01-20, 13:32
Here is a new map showing the Proto-Indo-European R1b, as well Greek and Anatolian branches of Indo-European people, including the Hittites, Lydians, Phrygians and Armenians. The Trojans also probably belonged to this group. This branch of R1b is the first that emerged from the Pontic Steppe and therefore expanded from the Balkans and Carpathians. It includes R1b-L23/S141, its subclade L51/M412/S167, and its two subclades L11/S127/L151 (in central an northern Europe) and Z2103 (in Anatolia and Assyria). Altogether they are known as 'haplotype 35' (ht35), as opposed to the Western European 'haplotype 15', which comprises the Proto-Italo-Celtic P312/S116 and the Proto-Germanic U106/S21.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L23.gif (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#R1b-L23)

@Maciamo can you shed light a bit more on the below please?...

1. According to this source your R1b M269-L23 would be the same as
R1b-M269 (xL23) ?

11719

2. Here on this study the spread goes from the central Balkans dont know about the timeframe though...you also mention ''This branch of R1b is the first that emerged from the Pontic Steppe and therefore expanded from the Balkans and Carpathians",
You also mention quote Z2103 could have descended from Albania or Macedonia during the Dorian invasion (see below), thought to have happened in the 12th century BCE.

THIS WOULD BE EXACTLY AS ON THE ABOVE MAP

Which haplogroup do you think mainly belonged to this group?


Source from:
Data used is mainly from Myres et al. (2011) (https://doi.org/10.1038/ejhg.2010.146). For DF27, newly reported data includes reports by Solé-Morata et al. (2017) (https://indo-european.eu/2017/08/analysis-of-r1b-df27-haplogroups-in-modern-populations-adds-new-information-that-contrasts-with-steppe-admixture-results/). Both have been reviewed, including more recent papers, in data reported by Hernández et al. (2018) (https://doi.org/10.1080/03014460.2019.1587507).
https://indo-european.eu/maps/haplogroup-r1b-m269/