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edao
13-08-13, 14:11
Who's right?

Is Spain breaking the law with excessive border checks and threatening border fees, or has the UK crossed a line building artificial reefs on what is rightfully Spanish territory:innocent:?
Is this just another crack in the EU.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23668589

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z74/IanTheCool/Loutherbourg-Spanish_Armada.jpg

loborasenna
13-08-13, 21:31
The problem is plain and simple. Controlling Gibraltar means controlling the commercial activity over the Mediterranean. If Spain manages to structure it railways through the rest of Iberia (Portugal) and get to the Atlantic, Gibraltar is obsolete. Knowing that, do you really think the recent tragedy of Santiago De Compostela was an "accident"? UK has been always near the US and against Europe. Always dividing and conquering. They managed to confront France with Germany, Poland with Germany, Spain with the Netherlands, he controls the resources of Malvinas in South America (what is UK doing down there?) and Gibraltar, like a parasite. I think Spain should recover itself leaving the EU for now and reconstructing its own industry and of course, develop a nuclear weapon that let that enter the G8. This is not about nationalism or who has the right, this is about geopolitics.

Coolboygcp
13-08-13, 23:45
First of all, they have held many sovereignty referendums over the past many decades. The citizens of Gibralatar has voted again, and again to be British! The Spanish are beating a dead horse!

The Treaty of Utrecht ceded Gibraltar to the British for eternity! It is British, and it will never be Spanish.

Britain let Hong Kong go to the Chinese, and they shouldn't have done that. They can't let Gibraltar go to the Spanish.

The British need to go and send an entire naval fleet to Gibraltar, as boost the number of soldiers there. Show the Spanish who their messing with. NATO should help them out too.

It is good that at least a warship is coming there.

:yeahh:
God save the Queen! Long Live Britannia!
:yeahh:

This is for Spain: :pfinger:

loborasenna
14-08-13, 00:05
It's easy to be democratic when you do not let non-british people to stay in those places. It's illegal for argentinians to stay in Malvinas, to raise a home or work or have a family there. Nice for a "Democratic" country like UK right? :). Nevertheless the british can be harsh with the now third-world Spain, but they have ran and hide behind the US since Putin made clear there's no place for intrigues in Eurasia. The russians won't let this half-african island keep going through the north of AFPAK. Russia-Iran-Syria/ China plus India-Brasil they are playing the right cards, they even made Obama leave Israel on its own last week :). I say the only problem in UE could be cause by false democracies which take advantages of their european "brothers".

edao
14-08-13, 12:19
Gibraltar row: Spain 'can't trust' UK, official says.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23694400


Glass houses stone throwing comes to mind.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceuta
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Localización_de_Ceuta.svg/690px-Localización_de_Ceuta.svg.png

loborasenna
14-08-13, 19:01
It's really simple, UK and US are today's Cartago. They are Sea powers, throughout history they've always tried to conquer the Sea to conquer the land. I am not saying they don't have the right, I am just saying that they are imperialists with no interest whatsoever in EUs, UNs or the European Brotherhood, they've always been against Europe and always will be, and that's not bad, because every country should stand for their right to conquer. I blame Spain for not been intelligent enough to grasp the idea that there's no "friends", "brothers, between nations, but competitors. They bought the old fairytale of Democracy. Movements like ETA for the País Vasco or Cataluña, they are all financed by english organizations.

Knovas
14-08-13, 20:31
I wonder who finances this loborasenna guy to post nonsensical theories with no basis LOL

People from Gibralatar don't want to be Spanish as Coolboygcp noted above. What is funny on the other hand, is that Castille/Spain renounced to keep Gibraltar to stop England's intervention in Catalonia 300 years ago. ¿And guess what? They are going to lose Catalonia anyways, that's why the Spanish politicians are so nervous lately.

loborasenna
14-08-13, 22:00
I am financed by the G8 and The Illuminatti :). No, seriously. My country, Uruguay, it's an invention of England to stop Argentina from get freely to the Atlantic. Also all those little states on Eastern-Europe like Estonia, Letonia, Lituania, are inventions to stop Russia to extend to Western-Europe and keep american missiles in their territory. By the way, Spanish politicians are not nervous at all about Cataluña, why should they? They've just get their independence and they are already broken XD. Thank that to MAS :). The truth about that is that Cataluña does not have an identity of its own, they have an invented history just to fulfill the purposes of English imperialism, but there's no point in talking about that right now. Again, there's no "people" in Gibraltar, nor democracy. When they allow spaniards to move there then they can talk about what the "people" of Gibraltar want or not. It's easy to be democratic when you don't let the opposition to stay in the room :).

ElHorsto
14-08-13, 23:56
Also all those little states on Eastern-Europe like Estonia, Letonia, Lituania, are inventions to stop Russia to extend to Western-Europe and keep american missiles in their territory.

Few brief remarks: These three little countries are no inventions, they are old Baltic nations. And Russia did not extend to europe since many decades already, instead it shrinked and withdrew its armies back home after 1990.

loborasenna
15-08-13, 00:11
Obviously. With "extend" I meant, economically and commercially. With Poland (another invention after the genocide of the Prussian nation) being the biggest US/ UK satellite in that area. Nevertheless, Russia will, eventually drag all these little states under its influence. In the case of Spain, that country has a terrific railway project, they have the most modern and efficient train service of Europe and if they could reach Portugal then the Atlantic would be a commercial platform to stretch across the ocean to Brazil. If that happens, Gibraltar will be obsolete for Spain. The same with Russia, in that case, US/ UK managed to put Turkey in his way to avoid Eurasia to reach the Mediterranean. Also creating instability in Georgia.

LeBrok
15-08-13, 03:31
I am financed by the G8 and The Illuminatti :). No, seriously. My country, Uruguay, it's an invention of England to stop Argentina from get freely to the Atlantic. Also all those little states on Eastern-Europe like Estonia, Letonia, Lituania, are inventions to stop Russia to extend to Western-Europe and keep american missiles in their territory. By the way, Spanish politicians are not nervous at all about Cataluña, why should they?

With Poland (another invention after the genocide of the Prussian nation) being the biggest US/ UK satellite in that area. Nevertheless, Russia will, eventually drag all these little states under its influence
Where the hell did you get this stuff from???!!! Tell us who invented Polish language, Estonian, Lithuanian, etc? Was it US or Russia? These countries (unlike Uruguay) have their languages and distinct cultures for at least a thousand years.

I'm sorry, but from reading your post it looks like you are stuck in 19 century understanding of the world.

Ike
15-08-13, 04:27
I

People from Gibralatar don't want to be Spanish as Coolboygcp noted above.





Again, there's no "people" in Gibraltar, nor democracy. When they allow spaniards to move there then they can talk about what the "people" of Gibraltar want or not. It's easy to be democratic when you don't let the opposition to stay in the room :).

Exactly.

There has never been democracy. It is just about how much money are US and IMF allowed to print and to give to some country, so that their people would vote for a pro US government that would eventually lead to a NATO membership.

Knovas
15-08-13, 13:28
Loborasenna really amazes me. I am starting to think he is financed by Carlos xD.

Invented history and identity? what is the Catalan language then? did you even read something about the Catalan Constitutions? what happened with this after the war of succession? You obviously don't know anything about Catalonia, not to mention other nations as LeBrok says. You better make sure you have the knowledge before spreading lies and absurdities.

PD: The point of letting Spaniards stay in Gibraltar is by far the best one. Come on, let's put hundreds of thousands of Spaniards to reconquer the land. Very democratic, ¿why considering the people who lives and works there? By the way, to my knowledge, a lot of Spaniards move there every day, since it is impossible to find a job in Spain. Time to go guys...¬¬

LeBrok
15-08-13, 16:58
Loborasenna really amazes me. I am starting to think he is financed by Carlos xD.


His IP shows Uruguay.
It is obvious, he dreams about Spanish Empire, anything else doesn't matter.

loborasenna
15-08-13, 19:16
PD: The point of letting Spaniards stay in Gibraltar is by far the best one. Come on, let's put hundreds of thousands of Spaniards to reconquer the land. Very democratic, ¿why considering the people who lives and works there?


Nice, because that's the main argument of fascism against immigration. They are invading us! They will take our jobs!. No wonder you're a catalanian nationalist. Funny, because your already-financially-broken heavy-bureaucratized nation that rejects the idea of been part of Spain and claims for its own non-existent identity (apart from language, and not that much taking in account the massive amount of other spaniards living in there talking their own language) is letting africans in and kicking spaniards out, letting Islam in and kicking catholics out. Nice way to affirm your identity! :good_job:

Knovas
15-08-13, 20:51
Again, the only thing you have proven, is that you're absolutely unaware of the Catalan and the Baltic countries history. You just reaffirmed.

The rest is nothing but a biased and dishonest interpretation (wrong), let alone the conspiracy theories you simply make up.

Really funny, I agree on that :D


PD: Wait for September 11, you'll see by yourself what is massive in Catalonia xDDD

loborasenna
15-08-13, 21:13
When I say the little states of the Baltic have been "invented", I am saying it geopolitically of course. For "Conspiracy Theories" you may have to take a look on the works of Sir Halford John Mackinder, he's the father of Geopolitics, you will have the chance of educate yourself.

Knovas
15-08-13, 21:26
I'll educate myself reading your comments, top class forumer ;)

At least I can correct a typo, that's something.

loborasenna
15-08-13, 23:28
No, that's nothing really. But, of course, there's always a place to correct spelling when you don't have any valuable argument right? ;)

Cambrius (The Red)
16-08-13, 16:22
I thought this was settled in a referendum some years ago. Gibraltar voted to remain under the U.K.

Knovas
16-08-13, 17:19
I thought this was settled in a referendum some years ago. Gibraltar voted to remain under the U.K.
No democracy according to him. Now it seems the valuable argument is explaining stories taken from american movies.

Love it.

Carlos
25-08-13, 02:15
It is important that the U.E. run an audit on Gibraltar. Ms. Merkel knows that you are cooking in Gibraltar against the EU and that behind is U.K. USA Canada and New Zealand is vital for Europe to end the tax haven representing the colony of Gibraltar.

Miss Merkel Gibraltar Rock hides a spy and intelligence center that severely handicap our European community a tax audit is vital at all levels of Gibraltar.


Gibraltar is a colony and from now will remember how uncomfortable it is to live in a colony.


There is much at stake and I hope someone will do to get my message.


To Ms. Merkel
(Germany)


PS: It's not crazy I have a lot of confidence in myself and I'm sure my letter will arrive.

Noman
25-08-13, 10:31
Obviously. With "extend" I meant, economically and commercially. With Poland (another invention after the genocide of the Prussian nation) being the biggest US/ UK satellite in that area. Nevertheless, Russia will, eventually drag all these little states under its influence. In the case of Spain, that country has a terrific railway project, they have the most modern and efficient train service of Europe and if they could reach Portugal then the Atlantic would be a commercial platform to stretch across the ocean to Brazil. If that happens, Gibraltar will be obsolete for Spain. The same with Russia, in that case, US/ UK managed to put Turkey in his way to avoid Eurasia to reach the Mediterranean. Also creating instability in Georgia.

Look up the partition of poland. Poland-lithuania was once a giant that make russia pee itself and got teamed up on and taken down by people who had no idea what a mistake it would be in the long run.

And prussia extended a lot further east and was gobbled by russia. Moving poland was no invention of the US or GB it was all about russia taking part of poland and all of east prussia.

Hmm, the crown of aragon was the real spain, and is how the conquista was won. It's the castillians who became traitors, after becoming ruled by tyrants from france and austria and finally teaming up with evil to take down a small but great nation that had humiliated giants time and again. Since then it's been nothing but tyrrany. Catalonia should be free, and cut loos aquitaine while you're at it, france is just as tyrannical and incompetent.

Madrid only hates on England because they are smooth enough to get things done without torturing people in the streets, it's sheer jealousy. They appeal to brotherhood of nations because now they have crushed down anyone with a brain and ran the whole country onto the rocks they have no hope to fight a power like morocco let alone GB or United States.

Not just catalonia will split up, the whole thing will fall apart.

Carlos
25-08-13, 12:24
The real Spain is when it reaches the unification of all regions and Catalonia is now free to be a region of Spain that should everything and spent a few days in France and ran back again with Spain.


Now the important thing is to finish Gibraltar espionage that center serving USA U.K. New Zealand, Canada.

Knovas
25-08-13, 12:38
The real "Spain" (still didn't exist) was in fact composed by different countries. All territories had specific laws and FULL autonomy. So basically inside the crown of Aragon, we found different realms acting as states, where the Principate of Catalonia preserved its own language, culture, traditions and, of course, institutions. It is funny to see some Spaniards telling there's no similarity between Scottland and Catalonia, because the former was a kingdom while the later just a principate: the degree of autonomy was exactly the same, so whatever the tag was doesn't matter at all. Catalonia will be a free region when finally decides to recover its natural status.

And of course, Gibraltar won't never be part of Spain until Gibraltarians want to. Also, thanks to Gibraltar, lots of Spaniards have a job (work in Gibraltar) or a way to subsist (certainly thanks to the smuggling practice). But to make it short, the alternative is much better than the Spanish offer, since at least people can eat something everyday. It is not UK's fault if Spain is a complete disaster.

Carlos
25-08-13, 12:45
In the Treaty of decolonization of Gibraltar common interests prevail over the views of the people of Gibraltar, sorry the thing is well and Spain will not bow to 29. 000 settlers Gibraltarians.


To speak of Catalonia and there is another thread that is Gibraltar understand his obsession but can not drag the topic of Catalonia in all threads are the subject might be.

Knovas
25-08-13, 13:00
Thanks for your advice Carlos, but let me remind that you also mention Catalonia...¬¬

What really matters regarding colonies is the right to self-determination, which by the way is universal. Stop twisting things. Gibraltarians decided two times on referendum to remain in the UK.

End of discussion, forget about it because you lost Gibraltar to stop England's intervention in Catalonia. They don't want to be Spanish, neither the Catalans. Result: Epic fail!

Carlos
25-08-13, 13:12
Most Gibraltarians are not home are Spanish settlers arrived there from many parts of the world are foreign settlers and decolonization treaty prevails over view of a few settlers Gibraltarians.


And it's a shame to say that Catalonia is a colony, perhaps referring to the colony (perfume) or Baron nenuco dandy. At what point did you hate your own country is a personal question? Do you remember that time accoutrements and meaningless?

Knovas
25-08-13, 14:10
I never said is a colony, but you seem to identify some issues as for instance the settlers. Who do you think are mostly the ones who don't want independence in Catalonia? Right, you guessed: Spanish people working there or descendants from just one generation.

By the way, I love my country, Catalonia, and I don't hate Spain. I'm just tired of its politicians and intolerant individuals like you who deny evidence and history. May I remind you the wrong info you posted yesterday? lol

Like it or not, Gibraltar's populations is what it is thanks to the Spanish agreement with England 300 years ago. You wanted Catalonia, and now you see you have nothing. Your decision, your fault. Sorry

Carlos
25-08-13, 15:20
Gibraltar is a colony of one EU country to another EU country and that is something against the foundations of the EU There is a treaty of decolonization of Gibraltar where of course the opinion of settlers not supersede the interests of a European nation which is affected in this case Spain.


About the inhabitants of Catalonia who are not first generation of Catalan origin or whatever they are calling their country in a region of Spain do not forget that the Spanish Constitution provides for free movement of Spanish throughout the country as there Catalans living in the other Spanish regions.


PS: I see you as much as you would remove gastronomy thread lies and myths of Catalan nationalism will answer for education because it is the topic of the thread.

Wilhelm
25-08-13, 15:35
I agree that Gibraltar belonged to Spain in 1713, so it is a stolen territory.

Knovas
25-08-13, 15:59
If you post lies in the forum you are exposed to face the consequences, that's what happened with the so called "Myths and Lies of the Catalan nationalism", which I proved it is rather "Myths and Lies of the Spanish nationalism. So be careful and maybe you stop embarassing yourself.

For the second time, you're not fooling anyone. The EU is founded first of all under the precepts of democracy, so what really matters the most is the opinion already given by the Gibraltarian people. The EU will never force the Gibraltarians to be something they don't want to or change their lifes completely, never. It maybe could happen in your parallel universe, not in real world I'm afraid.

For me a Catalan is someone who lives and works there, no problem with that. Doesn't matter because it is all about majorities, and the vast majority realised it is impossible to go on hand by hand with Spain. It never worked, the last oportunity was after Franco's dictatorship and you simply failed because of your arrogance. With or without constitution, the same you cannot force Gibraltarians, you no longer can force the Catalan people. Take it easy.

PD: Not stolen, it was an agreement with England to serve Castillian interests. They could choose to keep Gibraltar, but the choice was another. When the Gibraltarians claim their will to be part of Spain, then I will agree.

Carlos
25-08-13, 16:00
And besides being a tax haven and live in Spain with smuggling have a plant there espionage and intelligence that is a danger to the EU I hope that Ms. Merkel to step forward and think that the EU not only are cucumbers, it is time to put more than one in your site.


Spain is of interest to U.S.A. We are in the middle of the world for that reason have the Rota naval base. Gibraltar to Rota Naval Base is a strategic point is all that serves to damage the EU


I have my hopes for Ms. Merkel to an international conflico Europe would be the first to go are too hot around us. And do not forget that before we went to Spain USA power us with many more millennia back so it is you who are interested in the strategic situation of Spain is not in you and let us already in the movies paint us as indigenous phenotypes that we try and shame are the nation that gave them being.

They've been sniffing around our altar what are you looking for?

Noman
26-08-13, 03:07
E1b1b1a1c*+ J1C.

So, are you an obscure habsburg offshoot or some other royal then, Carlos?

Suddenly your crazy ranting makes some sense.

Carlos
26-08-13, 03:23
E1b1b1a1c*+ J1C.

So, are you an obscure habsburg offshoot or some other royal then, Carlos?

Suddenly your crazy ranting makes some sense.


It's possible I have a cousin who knows paternal lower jaw with a span now operated and good and I was saved because a tooth was in the correct position and served to stop the growth of the lower jaw after me and I have made ​​a dentition orthodontics perfect.


And my father has a strong resemblance to the King Juan Carlos I of Spain that starting now call the indivisible Spain because Spain is indivisible.


I can not really know because I am the paternal origin of a population created by Carlos III and its policy of new populations of Andalusia and also the files were burned by the Communists in the preambles of the Spanish Civil War. The only legend in my father's family is that we came from a deserter from Napoleon's troops but with the passage of time may have been confusion between a Spanish deserter or a deserter from Napoleon's troops so possibly never know, although I have always intuited that I have a good Spanish royal blood always aspires to nobility.

Noman
26-08-13, 03:30
It could even be lowland wars or something. Hmm, would be quite excited to find lines of more royals so if you ever find more don't keep it secret.

Carlos
26-08-13, 10:32
It could even be lowland wars or something. Hmm, would be quite excited to find lines of more royals so if you ever find more don't keep it secret.


But are things one senses or has somehow intuited but without any scientific proof or documentary for that reason it is difficult to go around saying: I think I have I can be related to a King people would think that this is really pedantic or an intuition that something.

Noman
26-08-13, 10:37
Yeah, I know. We could both be related for that matter, but maybe you have an aunt who will track down some of it at some point like mine has been doing and get some solid info. But records get hard to find if you go back a couple centuries and hop a few countries, so I think she is pretty well stuck now. But when I get my whole genome sequenced I will put the whole thing up online, see what matches are out there in fine detail.

Carlos
26-08-13, 14:30
Yeah, I know. We could both be related for that matter, but maybe you have an aunt who will track down some of it at some point like mine has been doing and get some solid info. But records get hard to find if you go back a couple centuries and hop a few countries, so I think she is pretty well stuck now. But when I get my whole genome sequenced I will put the whole thing up online, see what matches are out there in fine detail.


According'll be in touch.

Coolboygcp
08-02-14, 00:20
Gibraltar is not a colony, it is a territory. Gibraltar is British. The people who live there are not settlers. They are Gibraltarians. Several hundred years ago, their ancestors were settlers. That is like saying that if someone had a relative from France, several hundred years back, that they are French. It makes no sense.

Additionally, regarding Catalonia, the Catalan people want independence. And, they shall most likely get it within a few years.

Carlos
04-05-14, 22:49
Settlers of Gibraltar must know that it is very uncomfortable to live in a colony.

Ua'Ronain
20-05-14, 07:36
You can say that Gibraltar is a stolen territory but to do so is in my opinion simplistic and the easy way out of really thinking. If we went by that logic all land is stolen land from one group to the next. Over the course of history there have been countless population movements, migrations, conquests and more; but they all have the same thing in common. And that is in the end one group takes the land another group called their own. Point anywhere on the globe and the story is the same just with different actors, motives and whatnot. It may be crude or immoral in our modern society to take land from someone by force but none of us living here today can change what happened in the past.


It is part of who we are as a race. In the past war was common and might made right and of course to the victor goes the spoils of war. Try to deny it all you want but we are/were a warlike people no matter where you hail from. It is something every civilization shares in common and our ancestors no matter where they hail from did the same; it is in our nature the instinct to survive.

But we should agree that it is unjust and wrong to do so today but we cannot let the misdeeds of the past divide us; it is our duty to overcome the tribulations and atrocities of the past that our generation has inherited. It is easy to blame one another or another nation for the issues we face today. It is simple and easy to put blame on what is different or something you really don’t understand or even agree with but it does not help cure the problem. It creates a situation where hate and blind nationalism turns to violence and in extreme cases death. To overcome these issues we all must learn to compromise and at least have an open and objective mind. Remember just as we inherited a multitude of problems from our ancestors that we did not want; we run the risk of repeating the same mistakes as them and could leave the world worse for our children and those who come after us. Let me be clear here we must break the same cycle that got us here in the first place.

Debate, dialog, compassion and mutual respect are what is needed to solve complicated problems. Don’t fall into the same trap as those who made history before us and make an enemy out of someone because they are different or because you envy what they have or are slighted at what you think is wrong. It solves nothing, creates animosity and prevents all of us from focusing on the more important issues that we all face on a global level. In the end we are all but one people regardless of the language you speak, the color of your skin or how you worship. If you want to be a lesser man and go the easier path; the path that lead us to where we find ourselves today then know that you are part of the problem. These issues are complex and are a real challenge but it is something we can overcome if we are willing to compromise and learn from one another. We can accomplish great things if we would quit letting things divide us and tax our collective energy as a society.

But let me get off of my soapbox and return to the issue of this topic; Gibraltar. Perhaps my view of the matter is different to a native European; but to me Spain and the UK are both members of the European Union. They belong to something greater, a league of nation united “or trying to be” under the same Umbrella and at the end of the day it really does not matter what state claims it as the people who reside there enjoy the same rights and privileges regardless of what state gets to fly the flag. They share freedom of movement, access to travel, live and study where they please. To put it in an American perspective that would be like one state fighting with another state over who controls a chunk of land when in the end it really does not matter as they both belong to the same union of states. So let me ask you all this, are you all so bitter and divided over this issue of the past that we will sit here and wax philosophy about the morals of whom owns what when we could focus on more pressing issues? I guess I dont understand what the EU really is; because if it really is a union of nations then the members should be united and equally a part of something more than themselves and if that is the case it should be a moot point as no matter who owns what they still belong to the same government at the end of the day.

Carlos
21-10-14, 21:34
I believe that Europe or the European Union does not have to consent gaps British bands playing two or three, is a rock, little land, but what they do? we know what they do in Gibraltar, I do not consider it a future European-style places like Gibraltar, and neither is going to buy from supermarkets bare in foreign countries, here we will not have that.