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RHAS
22-08-13, 21:43
Correlations between Haplogroup J2 M172, the Roman Empire, Christianity and Viticulture.

Haplogroup J2 - Roman Empire.

https://sphotos-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/735130_476357865755707_1979767653_n.jpg

Haplogroup J2 - Spread of Christianity.

https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/555133_517420614982765_1576923373_n.jpg

Haplogroup J2 - Viticulture.

https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/561950_519419698116190_165014943_n.jpg

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RHAS
22-08-13, 21:59
Haplogroup J2 & Romans.

"It is important to note that at least four additional YDNA markers may have arrived with the Romans. What have been described as the Balkan group (E-V13), the Ancient Caucasians (G-S314), the Herdsman-Farmers (J-M172 – and a sub-group of this, M67, looks particularly Italian) and the Anatolian marker (R1b-M269*), when taken together, potentially add another 2.3 million Englishmen and Welshmen who could trace their fatherlines to the veterans of the II Augusta, the IX Hispana, the XIV Gemina, the XX Valeria Victrix and the other Italians who crossed to Britain in their wake."
BritainsDNA Press Releases - BritainsDNA finds the Lost Legions.
http://www.britainsdna.com/about/press-releases

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"Moffat said his colleagues had also discovered DNA originating from Roman-period Illyria, the area occupied by modern Croatia, which may relate to Roman occupation of lowland Scotland."
Guardian - Scotland DNA Study Project.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/aug/15/scotland-dna-study-project

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"In this study, we have detected a number of lineages that are prominent in the Balkans (I2*, I2b*, J2b1 and J2b2) at low levels throughout Ararat Valley, Gardman and Lake Van, the latter of which also contains haplogroups commonly associated with Bronze Age Greece (ie, J2a8-M319 (4.9%), and E1b1b1-M78 and its sublineages (3.9%)). While this may suggest genetic input from early Greek or Phrygian tribes, it is also possible that these low levels of Balkan lineages arrived in Armenia at a later time, such as during one of the many incursions into the area during the reign of the Macedonian, Roman and Byzantine empires."
Neolithic patrilineal signals indicate that the Armenian plateau was repopulated by agriculturalists.
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v20/n3/full/ejhg2011192a.html

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"One fourth of the Vlach people (isolated communities of Romance language speaking peoples in the Balkans) belong to J2, which, combined to the fact that they speak a language descended from latin, suggests that they could have had a greater part of Roman (italian) ancestry than other ethnic groups in the Balkans."
Eupedia.com, 2013.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

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"The J2 haplogroup can be found in today’s populations with notable frequency in Italy, Iberia, Turkey, Albania, Greece and even India, and most likely interacted with numerous cultures, including the Greeks and Romans."
Ancestry.com - Paternal Ancestry Certificate.
http://www.ancestry.com/

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"Haplogroups in Wallonia show the expected admixture of Gallo-Roman (R1b-S28, J2, G2a, E1b1b) and Germanic (R1b-S21,I1,I2b) haplogroups."
Eupedia.com - Ancient Ancestry Project, Benelux & France.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/benelux_france_dna_project.shtml

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"With respect to the Romans and the Visigoths, Romans appear not differ much genetically from the Iberians, particularly in relation to the Y chromosome, such that the gene frequencies of the population would not have changed much due to these invaders."
Searching the Peopling of the Iberian Peninsulafrom the Perspective of Two Andalusian Subpopulations: A Study Based on Y-chromosome Haplogroups J and E.
http://academia.edu/3067504/Searching_the_Peopling_of_the_Iberian_Peninsula_fr om_the_Perspective_of_Two_Andalusian_Subpopulation s

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"Research conducted by the administrators of the Border Reivers DNA Project has identified numerous haplotypes in persons of British descent that show Haplotype 35 markers. Moreover, most of these haplotypes appear to originate from areas of Britain near the Antonine Wall, Hadrian's Wall and other places of Roman fortification or settlement. These areas include Galloway, Dumfries, Ayrshire and The Borders in Scotland, and Cumbria, Yorkshire, Lancashire, Shropshire and Staffordshire in England. Many of the Roman troops stationed in these areas came from Southeastern Europe or Western Asia. They included Sarmatians, Dacians, Goths, Syrians, Mesopotamians, Thracians and Anatolians. The Capelli study has shown that these areas also exhibit higher than average frequencies of haplogroups E3b and J2, neither of which is native to Britain. E3b is found most commonly in North Africa, Iberia, the Mediterranean and the Near East, and J2 occurs most frequently in the Near East, the Mediterranean and Western Asia. The fact that all three groups - E3b, J2 and Haplotype 35 - have a similar origin in territories of the Roman Empire, and occur at comparable frequencies in parts of Britain with a known history of Roman settlement, suggests that they arrived in Britain through the same means."
Elliot (And border receivers) DNA Project (Haplogroup J2) - Haplogroup R1b (Haplotype 35).
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_r1b_ht35_analysis.htm

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"The members of this haplotype are found in high numbers in Anatolia and Armenia, with smaller numbers throughout Central Asia, the Middle East, the Balkans, the Caucus Mountains, and in Jewish populations. They are also present in Britain in areas that were found to have a high concentration of Haplogroup J, suggesting they arrived together, perhaps through Roman soldiers."
Wikipedia.org - Haplotype 35.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplotype_35

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"We could even go so far as to suggest he probably was a member of the J Haplogroup carrying the J2 (M172 subgroup) y-chromosome."
Roman Times - Roman Archaeology.
http://ancientimes.blogspot.nl/p/roman-archaeology_29.html

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"Romans surely helped spread haplogroup J2 across its borders, judging from the distribution of J2 within Europe (frequency over 5%) wich bears an uncanny resemblance to the borders of the Roman Empire."
Eupedia.com , 2013.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

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"Another relatively more recent mode for J2's entry into some parts of Europe from the Mediterranean areas could have been the Roman Legions and Roman settlements."
Kerchner.com - YDNA Haplogroup Descriptions & Information Links.
http://www.kerchner.com/haplogroups-ydna.htm

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"This lineage originated in the northern portion of the Fertile Crescent where it later spread throughout central Asia, the Mediterranean, and south into India. J2 is found in Britain, but rarely. It is most common in Eastern European countries, leading to speculation that it is either from gypsy background or, possibly, from Eastern European soldiers stationed in Britain during the Roman occupation in the first three centuries AD."
Scotland DNA Project.
http://www.ourfamilyorigins.com/scotland/j2.htm

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"Nog een aardigheidje voor Oost-Brabant: daar is een relatieve concentratie van haplogroep J gevonden. Volgens genetisch genealogen zijn die mensen waarschijnlijk nazaten van de oude Romeinen, gelegerd in Noviomagus (Nijmegen) of rond Locus Paludosus (De Peel)."
Eindhovens Dagblad - Veel DNA komt uit Spanje en Scandinavië. (Dutch)
http://www.ed.nl/regio/4449996/Veel-DNA-komt-uit-Spanje-en-Scandinavie.ece

Translated: One remarkable fact about this research is the concentration of J(2) found in the province of North Brabant, Genetic Genealogist believe these people are decended from Roman Soldiers stationed in Noviomagus (City of Nijmegen) and Locus Paludosis (De Peel)"

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"From about 700 BCE, the Etruscans settled around Tuscany and the Greeks in southern Italy. Etruscans probably came from Palestine and brought haplogroups J1, J2 and E with them. The Greeks in Italy were Doric and brought J2, E, G2a and probably more R1b (see above). The Romans progressively absorbed the Etruscans and Italian Greeks and mixed with them. By the time of Julius Caesar Roman citizens were probably composed of 45% of R1b, 20% of J, 15% of E, 15% of G2a and 5% of I2a."
Eupedia.com - Y-DNA haplogroups of ancient civilizations.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25163-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-ancient-civilizations

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"De verdeling der hoofdhaplogroepen met ruwweg hun plaats van ontstaan en de afgelegde weg: R1b: 145 57,31 % directe afstammelingen van de Cro-Magnons. I1: 030 11,86 % Balkan, Centraal Europa, Scandinavië. I2: 027 10,67 % Caucasus, Balkan, gebied van ex-Joegoslavië. E1: 016 06,32 % Noord-Afrika, Middellandse Zeegebied. J2: 011 04,35 % Mesopotamië, Feniciërs, Grieken, Zuid-Italië, (Romeinen)."
Familiekunde Vlaanderen - Jaarverslag 2009. (Dutch)
http://www.familiekunde-vlaanderen.be/system/files/Famvlaan%20Jaarverslag%202009.pdf

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"In deze studie wordt een tot nu toe niet bekende concentratie van de haplogroepen J in oostelijk Brabant aangetroffen. Het betreft hier voornamelijk J2 en oude, gevestigde families. Het is niet onmogelijk dat hier sprake is van families van nazaten van ´Romeinse´soldaten. Ook in het grensgebied van Engeland en Schotland is een concentratie van J2 families gevonden. In dat gebied zijn ook resten van tempels van de Iraanse god Mitras bekend en blijkt er een boogschuttereenheid uit het Midden/Oosten gelegerd geweest te zijn. Romeinse aanwezigheid in het land van Cuijck en aan de randen van de Peel (de naam is afkomstig van de naam die de Romeinen aan het gied gaven: Locus Paludosus ofwel moerassige streek) is bekend, zoals ook landmetingen van militairen die zich er gevestigd hadden en landbouw bedreven."
Project Genetische Genealogie in Nederland. (Dutch)
http://www.barjesteh.nl/DNAproject.htm

Translated: "In this study is an untill now unknown concentration of J haplogroups found in eastern Brabant. These mainly are old established J2 families. It is not impossible that these families are descendants of Roman Soldiers. Also in the border area of England and Scotland concentrations of J2 families are found. In these areas temples of the Iranian god Mithras are known to have excisted and there appears to be remnants of an archer unit stationed in the Middle / East. Roman presence in the country in that area of Cuijck and at the edges of the Peel (the name comes from the name the Romans gave to the area: Locus paludosus either swampy area) is known, as surveying of soldiers who had established and agriculture experts ".

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"J2 - This haplogroup originated during the Neolithic in Central Asia, and spread across the Mediterranean and the Middle East. It may have been brought to Britain by prehistoric farmers, Greek or Phoenician traders and Sephardic Jews among the Normans and the Flemish - as well as by Roman troops and settlers."
Elliot (And border receivers) DNA Project.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/

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"Het eerste jaar heeft tal van verrassingen opgeleverd. Via de gevonden DNA-profielen konden een aantal families aan elkaar gekoppeld worden, die voor het project nog niet van een onderlinge band wisten. Verrassend was voor tal van deelnemers ook de diepere oorsprong van de familie. Een oorsprong die bijvoorbeeld mogelijk te vinden is bij de zich in onze gebieden gevestigd hebbende soldaten uit het Romeinse leger."
Heemkundekring Weerderheem - Project Genetische Genealogie in Nederland. (Dutch)
http://www.weerderheemvalkenswaard.nl/pdf/webpublicaties-dna.pdf

Translated: The first year has yielded many surprises. A number of families could be linked together, which did not yet know of a mutual bond. Surprisingly for many participants were the discovery of deeper origins of the family. An origin that may be found for example in the areas were soldiers from the Roman army having settled.

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"The propagation of J2b and E V-13 correspond roughly to the ancient Greek and Roman spheres of influence."
Eupedia.com, 2013.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml

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"TONGEREN/ALKEN/WELLEN - Welke Tongerse families stammen echt af van de Romeinen? Onderzoekers van de KU Leuven zoeken dat uit aan de hand van DNA-stalen van tientallen mannen. Het Romeins DNA-project is een initiatief van het laboratorium van forensische genetica en moleculaire archeologie van de Leuvense universiteit en Familiekunde Vlaanderen."
Nieuwsblad - Romeins DNA van Limburgers onderzocht.
http://www.nieuwsblad.be/article/detail.aspx?articleid=DMF20121104_00357111

Translated: Which Tongeren families are really descendants of the Romans? Researchers of the University of Leuven are investigation the DNA samples of dozens of men. The Roman DNA-project is an initiative of the laboratory of forensic genetics and molecular archeology of the University of Leuven and the Genealogical Society of Flanders.

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"In 380, under Emperor Theodosius I, Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire by the decree of the Emperor, which would persist until the fall of the Western Empire, and later, with the Eastern Roman Empire, until the Fall of Constantinople."
History of the Catholic Church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Catholic_Church

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Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Iulius_Abdes_Pantera

Roman DNA Project.
http://romandnaproject.org/

https://sphotos-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1011016_557977024260457_2073484420_n.jpg

RHAS
22-08-13, 22:02
Haplogroup J2 & Viticulture.

"Wine making spread to Crete during the Minoan period and then later to Italy with the Etruscans and to Iberia with the Phoenicians. It was an integral component of the economy and social culture of the proto-greek civilizations and the phoenicians who both went on to settle other mediterranean coastal regions. And tracing the spread of Viticulture from its origins to its spread before the Roman period, we can see te highest levels of Haplogroup J2 today correlate with the geographical centres of all these civilizations. While viticulture may not represent the first wave of M172 migrants to Europe, M172 certainly played a strong role in bringing Viticulture to Europe with such civilizations as the Minoans, Greeks and Phoenicians."
M172 Blog - Correlations in the spread of Viticulture and Haplogroup J2, 2008.
http://m172.blogspot.nl/2008/10/corr...ticulture.html

"Ancient Rome played a pivotal role in the history of wine. The earliest influences on the viticulture of the Italian peninsula can be traced to ancient Greeks and the Etruscans. The rise of the Roman Empire saw both technological advances in and burgeoning awareness of winemaking, which spread to all parts of the empire. Rome's influence has had a profound effect on the histories of today's major winemaking regions in France, Germany, Italy, Portugal and Spain."
Ancient Rome and Wine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome_and_wine

"The influence of ancient Greece on wine is significant, not only to the Greek wine industry but to the development of almost all European wine regions and to the history of wine itself. The importance of viticulture in ancient Greek society is evident in a quote from the Greek historian Thucydides:“ The peoples of the Mediterranean began to emerge from barbarism when they learned to cultivate the olive and the vine. ” The ancient Greeks pioneered new methods of viticulture and wine production that they shared with early winemaking communities in what are now France, Italy, Austria and Russia, as well as others, through trade and colonization. Along the way, they markedly influenced the ancient European winemaking cultures of the Celts, Etruscans, Scythians and ultimately the Romans."
Ancient Greece and wine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece_and_wine

"The culture of the ancient Phoenicians was one of the first to have had a significant effect on the history of wine. Phoenicia was a civilization centered in the northern reaches of Canaan along the eastern shores of the Mediterranean Sea, in what is now modern-day Lebanon. Between 1550 BC and 300 BC, the Phoenicians developed a maritime trading culture that expanded their influence from the Levant to North Africa, the Greek Isles, Sicily, and the Iberian Peninsula. Through contact and trade, they spread not only their alphabet but also their knowledge of viticulture and winemaking, including the propagation of several ancestral varieties of the Vitis vinifera species of wine grapes."
Phoenicians and wine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicians_and_wine

"Occurrence of J2-M172 Y-chromosomes in Tuscany has been related to the Etruscan heritage of the region."
Uniparental Markers of Contemporary Italian Population Reveals Details on Its Pre-Roman Heritage.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0050794

"Romans surely helped spread haplogroup J2 across its borders, judging from the distribution of J2 within Europe (frequency over 5%) wich bears an uncanny resemblance to the borders of the Roman Empire."
Eupedia.com , 2013.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

"The ancient Greeks and Phoenicians were the main driving forces behind the spread of J2 around the western and southern Mediterranian."
Eupedia.com, 2013.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml

"The most frequent haplogroups among the current population on Crete were: R1b3-M269 (17%), G2-P15 (11%), J2a1-DYS413 (9.0%), and J2a1h-M319 (9.0%). They identified J2a parent haplogroup J2a-M410 (Crete: 25.9%) with the first ancient residents of Crete during the Neolithic (8500 BCE – 4300 BCE) suggesting Crete was founded by a Neolithic population expansion from ancient Turkey/Anatolia."
The Minoans, DNA and all.
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/the-minoans-dna-and-all/

"Both Early Christianity and Early Rabbinical Judaism were significantly influenced by Hellenistic religion and Hellenistic philosophy. Christianity in particular inherited many features of Greco-Roman paganism in its structure, its terminology, its cult and its theology. Titles such as Pontifex Maximus and Sol Invictus were taken directly from Roman religion. The influence of Neoplatonism on Christian theology is significant, visible for example in Augustine of Hippo's identification of God as summum bonum and of evil as privatio boni. Striking parallels between the New Testament account of Jesus and classical gods or demigods such as Bacchus, Bellerophon or Perseus were recognized by the Church Fathers and termed "demonic imitation" by Justin Martyr in the 2nd century."
Origins of Christianity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_Christianity

"Modern scholars such as Martin Hengel, Barry Powell, Robert M. Price, and Peter Wick, among others, argue that Dionysian religion and Christianity have notable parallels."
Dionysus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce5lrfQN0Bk

https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/602075_496308773760616_1899390364_n.jpg

LeBrok
22-08-13, 22:25
Correlations between Haplogroup J2, the Roman Empire, Christianity and Viticulture.
We have to keep in mind that Roman Empire had spread mostly over already intensely agricultural lands, over already civilized areas with big populations and big cities. It didn't spread north and north east where mostly wooded areas were, undeveloped poor barbaric lands.
It is most likely that J2 had spread with one of farmer waves from middle east, in pre IE times. The coincidental overlap of J2 and Roman empire is due to both of them liking same rich agricultural lands. Even less likely is any strong association J2 with Christianity.

RHAS
26-08-13, 19:39
Haplogroup J2 & Romans.

https://sphotos-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1234612_587696551288504_1044586635_n.jpg

Article from the Flemish Society of Genealogy. (Dutch Language) (2009)

(Translated: copyright VVF Bruges
DNA-PROJECT 2009-2010 (continued)
Results for the main haplogroups of the first 505 samples:
Group Number% Origin...
Rlb 298 59.01 direct descent from the Cro-Magnons
I1 61 17.08 Balkans, Central Europe and Scandinavia
I2 43 8.51 Caucasus, Balkans, the former Yugoslavia
E1 25 4.95 North Africa, Midde Lands region
J2 24 4.75 Mesopotamia, Phoenicians, Greeks, southern Italy (Romans)
R1a 20 3.96 Ukraine, Russia, Scandinavia
G2 17 3.37 Caucasus, Georgia, Armenia
J1 7 1.39 Mesopotamia, Arabs, Jews
L 4 0.79 India and Pakistan, Russia, North Europe
Q 3 0.59 Siberia, North and South America)

http://www.brugseverenigingen.be/_userwebspace/familiekundebrugge/PDF%20bestand/Krantje%2041%20jg%20nr%205%20september%20-%20oktober%202009.pdf

RHAS
26-08-13, 20:11
Viticulture.

"The earliest evidence of grape vine cultivation and winemaking dates back 7,000 years. The history of viticulture is closely related to the history of wine, with evidence that humans cultivated wild grapes to make wine as far back as the Neolithic period. Evidence suggests that some of the earliest domestication of Vitis vinifera occurred in the area of the modern country Georgia. There is also evidence of grape domestication in the Near East in the early Bronze Age, around 3200 BC."
Viticulture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viticulture

"Wine has a rich history dating back to around 6000 BC and is thought to have originated in areas now within the borders of Georgia. Wine probably appeared in Europe at about 4500 BC in what is now Bulgaria, and Greece, and was very common in ancient Greece, Thrace and Rome. Wine has also played an important role in religion throughout history. The Greek god Dionysus and the Roman equivalent Bacchus represented wine, and the drink is also used in Catholic Eucharist ceremonies and the Jewish Kiddush."
Cradle of wine - Georgia.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtMNyb1iEWE

Goga
26-08-13, 20:30
M172 Blog - Correlations in the spread of Viticulture and Haplogroup J2, 2008.
Sumerians were the first. Evidence for the World’s earliest Beer and Wine making in Kurdistan http://www.kurdistanica.com/?q=node/199 .

Goga
26-08-13, 20:31
Viticulture was believed to have been introduced to India by Persian traders sometime in the 4th millennium BC. Historians believe that these early plantings were used mostly for table grapes or grape juice rather than the production of an alcoholic beverage. During the Vedic period of the 2nd and 1st millennia, the Aryan tribes of the region were known for their indulgence in intoxicating drink and it seems probable that wine was a current beverage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_wine

RHAS
26-08-13, 23:34
Haplogroup J2 - Roman Empire

https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/285709_496832190374941_341618156_n.png

Haplogroup J2 M172 & Expansion Map of the Roman Empire.

https://sphotos-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1150305_591299907594835_72728669_n.jpg

Haplogroup J2 M172 - Roman Republic.

https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1236259_591804834211009_98755787_n.jpg

RHAS
27-08-13, 01:55
World Viticulture Zones

http://ethicalwine.com/gfx/world_viticulture_zones.jpg

LeBrok
28-08-13, 08:03
Why not include hg T? It surely shows high density in Italy and Greece, the centers of Roman Empire. Other centers fit RE borders almost perfectly too, like J2 maps.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-T.gif


and G hg fits Roman Empire well too.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif

Well, I could post all hg of early farmers and they would fit Roman Empire with not bad precision. As well RE could spread them all, and it did but in no substantial way.

Here is a spoiler for you and the proof that Roman Empire didn't spread these hg much. Romans and most of Italics were rich in R1b, so let's see how their specific hg correlate with borders of RE.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Celtic_Europe.gif
Considering that Italy is up to 60% rich in these hg, and that Galia and Hispania was conquered first out of the rest of Roman Empire, why these Italic and Celtic hg are missing from the rest of RE???!!! Well, in not higher amounts than 5%.
In contrast J2 is present everywhere around mediterranean from 10 to 30%.
Unbelievably, the most successful and most popular Italic R1b haplogroups failed to spread around RE.
By this we might conclude that 500 years of RE wasn't long enough for their dominant HG to grow over 5% in any place in the empire. Except the places where it was already present before the empire.
If it wasn't enough time for dominant R1b, it was surely not enough time for J, G or T to spread.

RHAS
28-08-13, 14:49
Why not include hg T? It surely shows high density in Italy and Greece, the centers of Roman Empire.


Because this is the J2 part of the Eupedia forum, and the topic is 'Haplogroup J2, Romans, Christianity and Viticulture'!

Goga
28-08-13, 16:01
LeBrok, you blocked me on another thread about J2a so I do answer your question here.

” Are you trying to confuse us on purpose?
According to you, Aryans originally were J2a (IE and came from steppe), conquered mesopotamia, populated it with high J2a, which later gave start to Jews, their main HG? Other words, proto Jews were Aryans.
Now, Hitler would really flip. “ Huh? You’re twisting my words. I never said that J2a is from Central Asia. J2a is native to the mountains of West Asia. J2a was born & evolved somewhere between the Taurus of Zagros mountains of West Asia. R1a-Z93 was native to (the north-western parts of) the Iranian Plateau & Central Asia, has been living there for thousands of years.
According to the Jewish scientists themselves, proto-Jews were J2a folks and came from the mountains

LeBrok
28-08-13, 18:21
Because this is the J2 part of the Eupedia forum, and the topic is 'Haplogroup J2, Romans, Christianity and Viticulture'!
Is this all your response to my critique? What about Italic R1b fenomenon? You can't answer (or even consider it) because it is J2 thread?

Noman
28-08-13, 23:06
Here is a spoiler for you and the proof that Roman Empire didn't spread these hg much. Romans and most of Italics were rich in R1b, so let's see how their specific hg correlate with borders of RE.

Considering that Italy is up to 60% rich in these hg, and that Galia and Hispania was conquered first out of the rest of Roman Empire, why these Italic and Celtic hg are missing from the rest of RE???!!! Well, in not higher amounts than 5%.
In contrast J2 is present everywhere around mediterranean from 10 to 30%.
Unbelievably, the most successful and most popular Italic R1b haplogroups failed to spread around RE.
By this we might conclude that 500 years of RE wasn't long enough for their dominant HG to grow over 5% in any place in the empire. Except the places where it was already present before the empire.
If it wasn't enough time for dominant R1b, it was surely not enough time for J, G or T to spread.

They would recruit local auxillaries and then move them to other sites, and by the time of the crisis even generals were largely non italic let alone legionaries. That's how english learned to constuct chain mail for instance.

And that's even assuming we should take that r1b as the main italic group. Was it the haplogroup of the patricians, too? Was it even haplogroup of the italics who moved there, or the substrate which was there already?

Sile
28-08-13, 23:25
They would recruit local auxillaries and then move them to other sites, and by the time of the crisis even generals were largely non italic let alone legionaries. That's how english learned to constuct chain mail for instance.

where you going with this?
note: that in the AD period of the Roman empire, the majority ( 80% ) of Roman Emperors where Dalmatians ( illyrian )

Noman
28-08-13, 23:46
where you going with this?
note: that in the AD period of the Roman empire, the majority ( 80% ) of Roman Emperors where Dalmatians ( illyrian )

I was just pointing out we don't expect to see a lot of italic DNA in the provinces, but that doesn't mean that they didn't have an effect on the provinces, due to moving people around all over the empire to make sure no one served in the area they were born in to keep them from rebelling.

LeBrok
29-08-13, 06:08
They would recruit local auxillaries and then move them to other sites, and by the time of the crisis even generals were largely non italic let alone legionaries. That's how english learned to constuct chain mail for instance.

And that's even assuming we should take that r1b as the main italic group. Was it the haplogroup of the patricians, too? Was it even haplogroup of the italics who moved there, or the substrate which was there already?
Ok, if not Italic, then where is Celtic R1b from France and Spain regions, moved around mediterranean with legions from conquered west europe? But somehow J2, G and T was spread around instead, in Roman Empire. It is a bit too selective, don't you think?

Maybe I missed Roman Senate's decree, allowing J, G and T move around and forbidding to emigrate all celtic R1bs?

Sile
29-08-13, 06:18
Because this is the J2 part of the Eupedia forum, and the topic is 'Haplogroup J2, Romans, Christianity and Viticulture'!

logic states that J2, T , G and any others who where in the same area at the same time traveled together for migrational ventures

Noman
29-08-13, 10:52
Ok, if not Italic, then where is Celtic R1b from France and Spain regions, moved around mediterranean with legions from conquered west europe? But somehow J2, G and T was spread around instead, in Roman Empire. It is a bit too selective, don't you think?
For large timeframes we know what legions were where, when, and where they came from, and the auxillaries. It's just a fact that J2 was spread around. I am sure rb was spread around too, but you are just spreading around r1b into more r1b for the most part.

For a lot of these areas the problem is we don't know what's "supposed to" be there. How about Illyrians? How about thracians? How about greeks? Well, I don't like/believe a lot of these answers in the first place, even the roman r1b version, I am not wholly sure of, though it does link back to anatolia so the origin makes sense.

For G I think it already spread around a lot before there was a rome, to all the civilized areas of farming in roman time. But it probably got spread around with the romans, too, and you will never be able to sort it out completely. Same with e1b, but to a much lesser extent.

T is more mysterious but I am guessing that it spread out even more early than G and while it might have been spread around a bit by romans, by that time it was already a completely scattered people.

Nobody1
29-08-13, 11:18
Pat Southern - The Roman Army: A Social and Institutional History (2006) [Oxford Uni. Press]
The two elements of the early Republican Roman army were first, the legions and the citizen cavalry, made up of homogeneous Romans from the city of Rome, and second, the non-Roman troops comprising the Latin and Italian allies. The latter were perhaps allowed to fight with their own weapons and equipment at first, but eventually their organization was brought into line with the Roman legions......which earned them the title Alae Sociorum, literally meaning “the wings of the allies”......For a long time Rome resisted granting full citizenship to the Latins and Italians, but after the Social War of 91 to 87 BC, all the inhabitants of Italy became Roman citizens and therefore eligible for service in the legions......The legions were theoretically recruited from Roman citizens, with a predominance of Italians in the early Imperial legions, superseded by a rising number of provincial Roman citizens toward the end of the first century.


Polybius - Battle of Telamon 225 BC / Roman Rep. army
The cavalry of the Sabines and Etruscans, who had come to the temporary assistance of Rome..... The military contingent of the Umbrians and Sarsinates inhabiting the Apennines amounted to about twenty thousand, and with these were twenty thousand Veneti and Cenomani;


Plutarch - Battle of Aquae Sextiae 102 BC / Roman Rep. army
to encourage one another or to terrify the Romans by this announcement. The Ligurians, who were the first of the Italic people to go down to battle with them;


The majority of the recorded centurions of the early Imperial-age (Legio X Fratensis) were also largely of Itlaic or veteran-Italic origin; Most of the Legions of Caesar and Octavian were Italic or veteran-Italic levied as well;
Auxiliaries were recruited from the local (whatever province) populous;

Cicero - Philippics III-IX
3.27. firmissimum ... exercitum comparavit:
Octavian conducted levies in Etruria and raised troops from Caesar's veterans in Campania, particularly in the towns of Capua, Calatia and Casilinum;


The largest Italic veteran colony was ITALICA in Baetica;
Now if the Romans are a source for Y-DNA Hg's than why is the amount of R1b-U152, J2a, E-V13 or G2a so extremely low in modern day Andalusia or that part of Andalusia?

At the end of the Empire commanders like Stilicho [Vandal/Italic] or Aetius [Scythian/Italic]
- best represent the shift that occurred;

Noman
29-08-13, 11:51
Now skip ahead to the marian reforms and the time of the actual roman empire, where there was somewhere besides italy to actually send people. Not to mention time of crisis and how claudius was the last mostly italic emperor of rome, and peoples like the alans and other allies of rome they settled in their borders. You can do it!

Like I said, this is not even an issue of theorizing. You can just read the answers in plain english, and if you don't know them then you should read a lot more about rome if you care about history at all. Or you can just deny the truth and give me a 0/1 people find this helpful like you do for every other post.

Nobody1
29-08-13, 12:12
Skip ahead?
Marian reforms was 107 BC - thats 5 years before the battle of Aquae Sextiae;
Marian reforms firstly had a massive impact on the Italic tribes after the Social war 91-88 BC and was the system that enabled Veteran colonies;
So what are you even implying with the Marian reforms?
Dont throw around with big words if you have no clue about the meanings;

I think the Oxford book by Pat Southern explain the recruitment of Imperial Rome (early & later) pretty good; Might want to read it; [posted a quote on post #21]

Apart from that my point was that ITALICA a colony of Italic Roman veterans (the largest and most prominent) had no impact on the Genetic (Hg) make-up of modern day Andalusia;
Now if thats the case and that is the case why should the Romans have had a bigger impact anywhere else?

PS: Try Trajan as the last Italic emperor;
Gens Ulpia and from the Veteran colony of Italica;

Angela
29-08-13, 20:51
Pat Southern - The Roman Army: A Social and Institutional History (2006) [Oxford Uni. Press]
The two elements of the early Republican Roman army were first, the legions and the citizen cavalry, made up of homogeneous Romans from the city of Rome, and second, the non-Roman troops comprising the Latin and Italian allies. The latter were perhaps allowed to fight with their own weapons and equipment at first, but eventually their organization was brought into line with the Roman legions......which earned them the title Alae Sociorum, literally meaning “the wings of the allies”......For a long time Rome resisted granting full citizenship to the Latins and Italians, but after the Social War of 91 to 87 BC, all the inhabitants of Italy became Roman citizens and therefore eligible for service in the legions......The legions were theoretically recruited from Roman citizens, with a predominance of Italians in the early Imperial legions, superseded by a rising number of provincial Roman citizens toward the end of the first century.


Polybius - Battle of Telamon 225 BC / Roman Rep. army
The cavalry of the Sabines and Etruscans, who had come to the temporary assistance of Rome..... The military contingent of the Umbrians and Sarsinates inhabiting the Apennines amounted to about twenty thousand, and with these were twenty thousand Veneti and Cenomani;


Plutarch - Battle of Aquae Sextiae 102 BC / Roman Rep. army
to encourage one another or to terrify the Romans by this announcement. The Ligurians, who were the first of the Italic people to go down to battle with them;


The majority of the recorded centurions of the early Imperial-age (Legio X Fratensis) were also largely of Itlaic or veteran-Italic origin; Most of the Legions of Caesar and Octavian were Italic or veteran-Italic levied as well;
Auxiliaries were recruited from the local (whatever province) populous;

Cicero - Philippics III-IX
3.27. firmissimum ... exercitum comparavit:
Octavian conducted levies in Etruria and raised troops from Caesar's veterans in Campania, particularly in the towns of Capua, Calatia and Casilinum;


The largest Italic veteran colony was ITALICA in Baetica;
Now if the Romans are a source for Y-DNA Hg's than why is the amount of R1b-U152, J2a, E-V13 or G2a so extremely low in modern day Andalusia or that part of Andalusia?

At the end of the Empire commanders like Stilicho [Vandal/Italic] or Aetius [Scythian/Italic]
- best represent the shift that occurred;

Well, one reason might be the subsequent Moorish invasion, which was followed by an 800 year occupation, following which we have the concerted effort by their most Catholic Majesties Ferdinand and Isabella to expel the Moors and the Jews, (an effort that I don't think was totally successful) which was followed by an also concerted effort to repopulate the southern areas with people from the north, which may indeed be why there isn't more substructure in Spain.

The same thing may have happened in many places that experienced a lot of migration and mixing during the Germanic and Slavic migrations.

Noman
29-08-13, 21:05
Skip ahead?
Marian reforms was 107 BC - thats 5 years before the battle of Aquae Sextiae;
Marian reforms firstly had a massive impact on the Italic tribes after the Social war 91-88 BC and was the system that enabled Veteran colonies;
So what are you even implying with the Marian reforms?
Dont throw around with big words if you have no clue about the meanings;

I think the Oxford book by Pat Southern explain the recruitment of Imperial Rome (early & later) pretty good; Might want to read it; [posted a quote on post #21]

Apart from that my point was that ITALICA a colony of Italic Roman veterans (the largest and most prominent) had no impact on the Genetic (Hg) make-up of modern day Andalusia;
Now if thats the case and that is the case why should the Romans have had a bigger impact anywhere else?

PS: Try Trajan as the last Italic emperor;
Gens Ulpia and from the Veteran colony of Italica;

Yes but you began back in early republican times. Everything you said is irrelevant because all that changed long before the empire split between east and west. it's alsready been said here it wasn't long til everyone but centurion was a foreigner, and most of the emperors and generals were foreigners.

Aside from legionaries and what angela said, again, look up the alans. They have their dna all over GB, case closed. They are not the only ones either, just the only ones I could think of off the top of my head.

Another example, Goths. Romans settled them in their boundariess originally as well. I think that had some effect on genes in europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foederati

Angela
29-08-13, 21:19
Skip ahead?
Marian reforms was 107 BC - thats 5 years before the battle of Aquae Sextiae;
Marian reforms firstly had a massive impact on the Italic tribes after the Social war 91-88 BC and was the system that enabled Veteran colonies;
So what are you even implying with the Marian reforms?
Dont throw around with big words if you have no clue about the meanings;

I think the Oxford book by Pat Southern explain the recruitment of Imperial Rome (early & later) pretty good; Might want to read it; [posted a quote on post #21]

Apart from that my point was that ITALICA a colony of Italic Roman veterans (the largest and most prominent) had no impact on the Genetic (Hg) make-up of modern day Andalusia;
Now if thats the case and that is the case why should the Romans have had a bigger impact anywhere else?

PS: Try Trajan as the last Italic emperor;
Gens Ulpia and from the Veteran colony of Italica;

I hope I'm not being too pedantic, but I think you can go further; that entire group of emperors until Commodus (192 A.D.), with the possible exception of Antoninus Pius, were of Italic origin, and most were connected with that same colony in Spain.

It's only with the disastrous third century that you get the Balkans emperors. Although one wonders how different they would have been...perhaps in terms of y dna...not all that U-152, but in terms of autosomal, over all genetic similarity? That paper cited by Dienekes maintained that a dna analysis of a Balkan from the Iron Age was "Otzi like".

Noman
29-08-13, 21:35
ah, nevermind.

Nobody1
29-08-13, 23:32
Yes but you began back in early republican times. Everything you said is irrelevant because all that changed long before the empire split between east and west. it's alsready been said here it wasn't long til everyone but centurion was a foreigner, and most of the emperors and generals were foreigners.

Every source whether Classical Historians or Modern-day Historians will inform you that only Roman citizens were recruited for the Legions; And its not that difficult to find out to whom Roman citizenship was granted - and when;

For example:
Marius granted all Italic allies who served at Vercellae the Roman citizenship [101 BC];
All Italic tribes were granted the Roman citizenship after the Social war [88 BC];
All of Cisalpine Gaul was granted the Roman citizenship by Caesar [49 BC];

The only other provinces with masses of Roman citizens were Gallia Narbonensis and Hispania
(mostly Baetica/Ulterior)
But the majority (vast majority) of those Roman citizens were Colonists or Veterans from Roman Italy;

The Italic dominance of the Legions only began to change during the reign of Claudius [41-54 AD]
when Auxiliary troops (foreigners) were granted Roman citizenship upon discharge;
This granted right allowed their Roman citizen children to serve in the Legions;
That was the beginning (Claudian reign) of a foreign domination within the Roman Empire;
which was further continued by Nero and Vespasian and ultimately by Caracalla (Granting all populous of the Roman world citizenship) 212 AD;

So only the Roman Republic and the early Roman Empire [Augustus/Tiberius] can truly be considered Roman (Italic/Etruscan) and it was during this time (Republic-Tiberius) that Rome became an ancient super-power and conquered its Empire;
And therefor that epoch is far from Irrelevant;

The foederati system was the final nail in the coffin
after the Claudius policies and the split to West/East
But everything comes to an end and the Carolingian Empire was its Germanic successor;

Sile
30-08-13, 21:47
I was checking if AuDna -Dodecad K12b listed moors as sub-saharan or african and it is different

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1002397


African auDna numbers in Europe are far older

Sile
30-08-13, 21:51
I usually don't engage in discussions on internet sites with some Spanish posters for precisely this reason. What is there to be so concerned about? Is it such a terrible thing to have North African haplotypes or 4-5% of the North African component, or a percent or two of SSA, which is really what it boils down to? Yes, some of it could have come in the Mesolithic or the Neolithic, but to pretend that there was absolutely no admixture during the Moorish occupation, and that old Isabella kicked out every last Moor and Jew or part Moor and Jew is silly. After all, and thank goodness, she didn't have AC or Countries of Ancestry to sniff them out. That doesn't mean that this is in any way a majority component of the genomes either.

And why always drag comparisons with Italy into the discussion? Who cares? I certainly don't.

Genetics is genetics...it is what it is...and false or misleading information or just misinformation should be corrected.

In that regard, if you're going to discuss genetics, please don't post an autosomal study that uses 52 Aims, as you did above. Is it the stone age on this site? That was an abominable embarrassment of a study. Both Italians and Spaniards should be ashamed that their compatriots could put out such garbage. Even the mt dna and y dna analysis didn't use subclades that are clearly available, and the charts were disastrously put together.

And please don't quote Moorjani et al 2011, either. That's a Reich group paper...they realized their mistakes almost as soon as they wrote it, I think, and quickly corrected things in their following Patterson et al 2012 and Lipson et al 2013 papers.

This is a fast moving field...you have to keep up with the latest research, and read things in sequence. You can't go hopping around trying to find things that support your point of view, when the data may have been disproved, or at least refined in subsequent studies.

You also don't really want to get into the pigmentation area, not based on the most recent study. It might induce a coronary in the faint of heart :smile:

Well said.

Do you known anything about the religious order from mauretania (pre islam) which settled in lombardy and veneto? I suspect it was early AD times when the Roman empire still existed.

Noman
30-08-13, 22:07
I agree in some sense because anything bad to come from outside will get purified out by selection and anything good will be retained by selection so long as the numbers coming in aren't so huge that can't happen, like it is today with more open borders and people fleeing countries en masse. The problem is some people of some groups are trying to put a claim onto the lands of other groups, and some people of other outside groups are trying to disavow their more southern cousins completely, when in reality all of western europe is mostly one big happy family.

Sile
30-08-13, 22:07
as per link below , for autosomal it seems K1 is the only one affiliated with the berbers

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/2012/01/egyptian-genetics-in-regional-context.html

Angela
30-08-13, 23:50
Well said.

Do you known anything about the religious order from mauretania (pre islam) which settled in lombardy and veneto? I suspect it was early AD times when the Roman empire still existed.

Do you mean the legends about San Zeno of Verona?
http://www.santiebeati.it/dettaglio/49300

I've always thought that some of these monks might actually have fled from the Vandal invasions of North Africa. At that time, the Church was flourishing there, and some of the earliest monastic centers developed there. (In Egypt first, of course.)

The Saracens from Spain (Andalucia, actually) did invade and occupy Provence, and from there made incursions into Liguria, up into Piemonte, reaching Lombardia, the mountain passes and Switzerland. Of course, we're not talking about big groups of people here.
http://www.academia.edu/1415577/The_Saracens_of_St._Tropez
http://cronologia.leonardo.it/storia/tabello/tabe1549.htm

Sile
31-08-13, 00:54
Do you mean the legends about San Zeno of Verona?
http://www.santiebeati.it/dettaglio/49300

I've always thought that some of these monks might actually have fled from the Vandal invasions of North Africa. At that time, the Church was flourishing there, and some of the earliest monastic centers developed there. (In Egypt first, of course.)

The Saracens from Spain (Andalucia, actually) did invade and occupy Provence, and from there made incursions into Liguria, up into Piemonte, reaching Lombardia, the mountain passes and Switzerland. Of course, we're not talking about big groups of people here.
http://www.academia.edu/1415577/The_Saracens_of_St._Tropez
http://cronologia.leonardo.it/storia/tabello/tabe1549.htm

yes thank you

my mother was born in San Zenone di Ezzelini

The Ezzelini being a bavarian nobility from Augsburg

San Zenone is east of Vicenza

Drac II
31-08-13, 02:20
I must have forgotten it; because i have no clue what your talking about;

Yes, it seems you have a case of very acute "selective memory". I am very sure you do know very well what I am talking about.


So Moorjani et al 2011 (Harvard Uni.) is also agenda driven, wrong and flawed;
Another one for the list;

And where exactly is Spain and Portugal lumped together ?

Sub-Saharan Africa admixture results;
Spain = 2.4%
S Italy = 2.7%
Portugal = 3.2%
N Italy = 1.1%
Greece = 1.9%

Im not sure what you are seeing;

Then you must be blind because you quoted the passage yourself in the other post. The only way the authors could get away with such a statement was by doing what you describe below: fragment Italy and lump Spain & Portugal together under the name "Iberia".


but im seeing the Portuguese with the highest level and N Italians with the lowest level;
S Italy 2.7% and Spain (all of it) 2.4%;
With Iberia (total) being the region of Europe with the highest overall;
And thats a Harvard study from 2011;

Once again, by adding two separate nations together as "one region". Considered singly, Italy is the region of Europe that has the highest level overall (all of Italy = south + north + Sardinia, all together, not separately)

Drac II
31-08-13, 02:25
You do know that MAP stands for Malaria Atlas Project and these predictions/estimates are based on their current data;

the Malaria Atlas Project .... maps the geographical contemporary distribution of sickle haemoglobin .... Our aim was to use available evidence-based epidemiological data from the literature combined with modern mapping and modelling methods to come up with the best maps and estimates.

I know it must be hard for you to actually read what you dont want to read and look at data maps you dont want to see;
But its a safe thing to trust in the Studies and resulting data from renown institutions like the Oxford University;

That's what it must be like for you, not me, since you are the one who did not even bother to read that your map is a "prediction" and is labelled as such by your very own source. You already made the same "mistake" before with a skin pigmentation map. It seems you make it a habit of not bothering to read what you post.


HemoglobinS (Sickle Cell) is nothing new to Spain;
Might want to read all about it In Serjeant 1985 studies;

Haemoglobinopathy Diagnosis - 2006
The Benin type has also spread to Spain, Portugal, Sicily (perhaps from Greece, perhaps from Sudanese soldiers in Arab armies) and southern mainland Italy, Greece (particularly Macedonia), Albania, Turkey, north-western Saudi Arabia and Oman;

As you can see from the data gathered by all those other universities and institutes, and even Italian researchers themselves, Spain hardly figures anywhere, while Italy is always present.

Drac II
31-08-13, 02:46
I usually don't engage in discussions on internet sites with some Spanish posters for precisely this reason. What is there to be so concerned about? Is it such a terrible thing to have North African haplotypes or 4-5% of the North African component, or a percent or two of SSA, which is really what it boils down to? Yes, some of it could have come in the Mesolithic or the Neolithic, but to pretend that there was absolutely no admixture during the Moorish occupation, and that old Isabella kicked out every last Moor and Jew or part Moor and Jew is silly. After all, and thank goodness, she didn't have AC or Countries of Ancestry to sniff them out. That doesn't mean that this is in any way a majority component of the genomes either.

And why always drag comparisons with Italy into the discussion? Who cares? I certainly don't.

Genetics is genetics...it is what it is...and false or misleading information or just misinformation should be corrected.

In that regard, if you're going to discuss genetics, please don't post an autosomal study that uses 52 Aims, as you did above. Is it the stone age on this site? That was an abominable embarrassment of a study. Both Italians and Spaniards should be ashamed that their compatriots could put out such garbage. Even the mt dna and y dna analysis didn't use subclades that are clearly available, and the charts were disastrously put together.

And please don't quote Moorjani et al 2011, either. That's a Reich group paper...they realized their mistakes almost as soon as they wrote it, I think, and quickly corrected things in their following Patterson et al 2012 and Lipson et al 2013 papers.

This is a fast moving field...you have to keep up with the latest research, and read things in sequence. You can't go hopping around trying to find things that support your point of view, when the data may have been disproved, or at least refined in subsequent studies.

You also don't really want to get into the pigmentation area, not based on the most recent study. It might induce a coronary in the faint of heart :smile:

Actually it's the other way around: it is tiresome to engage in discussions with some Italian posters for precisely this reason. What is there to be concerned about? Well you tell me. All those things you try to argue against some Spanish posters actually apply to such Italian posters, ironically. You want to accept any claim said in dubious/junky/agenda-driven genetic papers about Spain, but not those about Italy.

The study was written by Italian geneticists themselves, and 52 Aims autosomal is still a better and more informative genetic quantifier than any haplogroup, which is only a small part of the DNA, yet you want to give preference to the latter simply because it seems to support your wishes that Spain should be more "African" than Italy.

Moorjani et al. 2011 did not "realize" anything, as far as I know. They still stick to their results and their claims, even though some of them are indeed faulty (their autosomal results are not entirely in agreement with haplogroup results of previous studies, as they wished to pretend they were.)

You mean like that recent pigmentation study that showed Portuguese as lighter than Italians and that your pal Nobody1 has been trying to "spin" since day 1, as he usually does with anything that goes "against" Italy in these topics?

Drac II
31-08-13, 03:01
which elites where Arab, have you a link?

Ask any historian on the subject. It is well-known that the Arabs were the leaders of early Islam and they always established themselves at the top of the political ladder wherever they conquered, as is naturally done by all conquerors.


What does religion have to do with Genetics
, ?...........i find this absurd. So a special alleles was formed when either jewish, christian, islam, hindu or other religions was created? Please do not bring this stupidity up again...........................who cares about islam for Spain?

You should be asking those questions to the person who first brought it up as some sort of "counterargument" for a claim about a supposedly "Roman" genetic marker, and then ask the same question to yourself for trying to bring an agenda-driven Italian haplogroup study trying to make it look as if the genetic markers that they were using are really good indicators of medieval ancestry, which they aren't since they are thousands of years older.



So the paper was correct, it stated that Sicily was very similar to Spain , but the peninsula of Italy was relative minor at 1%. The query is here is that the heel of Italy has the most % apart from Sicily. I can only see it from a later ottoman incursion in the 15th century.

Once again, you are looking at an agenda-driven paper which not only tried to ignore the fact that the haplogroup markers they were using are thousands of years older than Islam itself, but also mysteriously "forgot" the fact that Italy already had Near Eastern and North African populations during Roman times, long before Islam even existed.


the 2010 paper , american journal stated.
MtDNA Haplogroup L (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macro-haplogroup_L_%28mtDNA%29) lineages are relatively infrequent (1% or less) throughout Europe with the exception of Iberia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberia) where frequencies as high as 22%[39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_Iberian_Peninsula#cite_note-39) have been reported and some regions of Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy) where frequencies between 2 and 3% have been found.

In Iberia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberia) the mean frequency of Haplogroup L lineages reaches 3.83% and the frequency is higher in Portugal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal) (5.83%) than in Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain) (2.90%) and without parallel in the rest of Europe. Furthermore, in western Iberia, increasing frequencies are observed for Galicia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_%28Spain%29) (3.26%) and northern Portugal (3.21%), through the center (5.02%) and to the south of Portugal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal) (11.38%).[40] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_Iberian_Peninsula#cite_note-40) Significant frequencies were also found in the Autonomous regions of Portugal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_regions_of_Portugal), with L haplogroups constituting about 13% of the lineages in Madeira (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeira), significantly more than in the Azores (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azores).[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_Iberian_Peninsula#cite_note-Brehm_A.2C_Pereira_L.2C_Kivisild_T.2C_Amorim_A_200 3_77.E2.80.9386-41) In the Spanish archipelago of Canary Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_Islands), frequencies have been reported at 6.6%.[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_Iberian_Peninsula#cite_note-Brehm_A.2C_Pereira_L.2C_Kivisild_T.2C_Amorim_A_200 3_77.E2.80.9386-41)

Now you are quoting from Wikipedia junk, not even a real study or a specialized site, which is heavily manipulated by all sorts of t-r-o-l-l-s with different interests and agendas. And the 22% says was found in "Iberia", not Spain. Iberia is Spain + Portugal. And it was found actually in a small town in Portugal (Alcacer do Sal.)

Nobody1
31-08-13, 03:05
Once again, by adding two separate nations together as "one region". Considered singly, Italy is the region of Europe that has the highest level overall (all of Italy = south + north + Sardinia, all together, not separately)

Really???

Sub-Saharan African admixture:
Average of Italy (North/South/Sardinia) = 2.2%
Thats lower than the average of Spain 2.4% and the average of Portugal 3.2% and the average of Iberia 2.8%;

N Italy = 1.1% (Moorjani et al 2011)
Tuscany = 1.5% (Moorjani et al 2009)
S Italy = 2.7% (Moorjani et al 2011)

The split is necessary since the Italians [North/Central/South/Sardinian] are all Genetically diverse from each other (do not cluster with each other);

North Italy (1.1%) and Tuscany (1.5%) are clearly below the Spanish value of 2.4% and the Portuguese value of 3.2%;

The South Italian value (2.7%) is closer to the Spanish value than to the North Italian or Tuscan;
And clearly below the Portuguese value;

This data is supported by the recent study of
Botigue et al 2013
http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2013/05/30/1306223110.DCSupplemental/sapp.pdf

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1Y6nfb7Ka8E/Uaz_N0WrLSI/AAAAAAAAI24/XYZxZo9yHUk/s1600/iberia.jpg



That's what it must be like for you, not me, since you are the one who did not even bother to read that your map is a "prediction" and is labelled as such by your very own source. You already made the same "mistake" before with a skin pigmentation map. It seems you make it a habit of not bothering to read what you post.

Your mistake is your illusion that those "predictions" are based on thin air;
In reality they are based on proper data;

Oxford Uni. 2012
http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_releases_for_journalists/121025.html

Dr. Fred Piel from Oxford University’s Department of Zoology, who led the research, said: 'Sickle cell disease has now been studied intensively for more than a hundred years but our knowledge about its current distribution and burden is really poor. Our aim was to use available evidence-based epidemiological data from the literature combined with modern mapping and modelling methods to come up with the best maps and estimates.

Plans for the future -

In the future, we hope that accessing additional data, including from national screening programmes, would help further refine these results.

And thats the result;
Oxford Uni. 2012 - contemporary distribution of sickle haemoglobin
http://www.ox.ac.uk/images/hi_res/15799_Sickle_cell_anaemia_MAP.jpg


Too bad that this data doesnt fit your wildest fantasies (far from it);
But have fun telling yourself that its all a Hoax - based on wild baseless "predictions";
If you dont want to get it - than dont get it; luckely the study stands for itself and is well explained your version is therefor not needed;

Drac II
31-08-13, 04:15
Really???

Sub-Saharan African admixture:
Average of Italy (North/South/Sardinia) = 2.2%
Thats lower than the average of Spain 2.4% and the average of Portugal 3.2% and the average of Iberia 2.8%;

N Italy = 1.1% (Moorjani et al 2011)
Tuscany = 1.5% (Moorjani et al 2009)
S Italy = 2.7% (Moorjani et al 2011)

Nope. This is not a haplogroup study, it's already "averaged".


The split is necessary since the Italians [North/Central/South/Sardinian] are all Genetically diverse from each other (do not cluster with each other);

So? There is genetic differences among Spaniards too, specially in this regard, but they did not extend the same "courtesy" to them.


North Italy (1.1%) and Tuscany (1.5%) are clearly below the Spanish value of 2.4% and the Portuguese value of 3.2%;

You are comparing isolated regional results to country-wide results.


The South Italian value (2.7%) is closer to the Spanish value than to the North Italian or Tuscan;
And clearly below the Portuguese value;

This data is supported by the recent study of
Botigue et al 2013
http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2013/05/30/1306223110.DCSupplemental/sapp.pdf

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1Y6nfb7Ka8E/Uaz_N0WrLSI/AAAAAAAAI24/XYZxZo9yHUk/s1600/iberia.jpg


Oh, wow, there go again those silly maps you like to plaster all over the place since they seem to agree with your agenda. Those are IBDs, by the way. I am sure you already know how they can be viewed with suspicion since they do not indicate the direction of gene flow:

http://livingbiology.com/ibd-sharing-between-iberians-and-north-africans-botigue-et-al-2013/

Oh, and take a look at one of the graphics from actual admixture analysis from the same study, showing no sub-Saharan in Spain (except only Basques) at k=6 level, while Italy still shows it.

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/7307/k36fig3.png

Funny how you don't like to plaster that one all over the place, isn't it, even though it comes from the exact same paper.


Your mistake is your illusion that those "predictions" are based on thin air;
In reality they are based on proper data;

Oxford Uni. 2012
http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_releases_for_journalists/121025.html

Dr. Fred Piel from Oxford University’s Department of Zoology, who led the research, said: 'Sickle cell disease has now been studied intensively for more than a hundred years but our knowledge about its current distribution and burden is really poor. Our aim was to use available evidence-based epidemiological data from the literature combined with modern mapping and modelling methods to come up with the best maps and estimates.

Plans for the future -

In the future, we hope that accessing additional data, including from national screening programmes, would help further refine these results.

And thats the result;
Oxford Uni. 2012 - contemporary distribution of sickle haemoglobin
http://www.ox.ac.uk/images/hi_res/15799_Sickle_cell_anaemia_MAP.jpg


Too bad that this data doesnt fit your wildest fantasies (far from it);
But have fun telling yourself that its all a Hoax - based on wild baseless "predictions";
If you dont want to get it - than dont get it; luckely the study stands for itself and is well explained your version is therefor not needed;


Once again trying to give it your usual spins, this time by trying to confuse what their mission statements are with the provided sample of a map clearly labelled as a "prediction". Plus the fact that southern England, the Netherlands and France are shown with more "blue" should already give you a clue that they are not talking exclusively about native inhabitants, but what the future distribution of this disease will be like given current population/immigration trends. If you look at the older maps, based on data from times before the modern levels of immigration, these areas (and Spain too) have so little of it that they do not even register:

http://itg.content-e.eu/Generated/pubx/173/mm_files/do_3427/co_68861/Cd_1093_038c.jpg

Sile
31-08-13, 04:22
Ask any historian on the subject. It is well-known that the Arabs were the leaders of early Islam and they always established themselves at the top of the political ladder wherever they conquered, as is naturally done by all conquerors.



You should be asking those questions to the person who first brought it up as some sort of "counterargument" for a claim about a supposedly "Roman" genetic marker, and then ask the same question to yourself for trying to bring an agenda-driven Italian haplogroup study trying to make it look as if the genetic markers that they were using are really good indicators of medieval ancestry, which they aren't since they are thousands of years older.




Once again, you are looking at an agenda-driven paper which not only tried to ignore the fact that the haplogroup markers they were using are thousands of years older than Islam itself, but also mysteriously "forgot" the fact that Italy already had Near Eastern and North African populations during Roman times, long before Islam even existed.



Now you are quoting from Wikipedia junk, not even a real study or a specialized site, which is heavily manipulated by all sorts of t-r-o-l-l-s with different interests and agendas. And the 22% says was found in "Iberia", not Spain. Iberia is Spain + Portugal. And it was found actually in a small town in Portugal (Alcacer do Sal.)

You are a road block in finding the truth of ancient Iberia, .....advise me who the Carthaginians annexed in Spain and what was the haplotype. Clearly there where people already in iberia before the Carthaginians arrived, agree?

Drac II
31-08-13, 04:28
You are a road block in finding the truth of ancient Iberia, .....advise me who the Carthaginians annexed in Spain and what was the haplotype. Clearly there where people already in iberia before the Carthaginians arrived, agree?

Yes, there were Iberians and Celts in Iberia before that. Haven't we been over this before? I think so. The Carthaginian armies in Europe (which ended up invading Italy through the Alps, BTW) were made up mostly of Iberian and Celtic mercenaries, not Carthaginians. They were a mercenary army. Carthaginians were not as nationalistic as their Roman foes at the time, when their armies were almost exlusively made up of Romans, not foreign conscripts.

Nobody1
31-08-13, 04:50
Nope. This is not a haplogroup study, it's already "averaged".

What?


So? There is genetic differences among Spaniards too, specially in this regard, but they did not extend the same "courtesy" to them. You are comparing isolated regional results to country-wide results

And?
Do those "isolated regions" not stand for themselves;
Yes they do (Genetically);


Oh, wow, there go again those silly maps you like to plaster all over the place since they seem to agree with your agenda. Those are IBDs, by the way. I am sure you already know how they can be viewed with suspicion since they do not indicate the direction of gene flow:

http://livingbiology.com/ibd-sharing-between-iberians-and-north-africans-botigue-et-al-2013/


Funny how you don't like to plaster that one all over the place, isn't it, even though it comes from the exact same paper.

Concerning the Sub-Saharan admixture; just take a look at p.8 & p.9

Botigue et al 2013 - p.8 / p.9
http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2013/05/30/1306223110.DCSupplemental/sapp.pdf

ITA is lower than SPA
ITA is the same as GAL (Galicia)
ITA is much lower than AND (Andalusia)
TSI (Tuscans) is far lower than anything in Iberia
SWZ_IT is far lower than anything in Iberia

POR (Portugal) tops the charts again - by far;

The map [post#61] from this study [Botigue et al 2013] of course represents these values exactly;


Oh, and take a look at one of the graphics from actual admixture analysis from the same study, showing no sub-Saharan in Spain (except only Basques) at k=6 level, while Italy still shows it.

Are you joking?
And have you noticed K=3/k=4/k=5

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/7307/k36fig3.png

And can you also provide the full study to that chart; and not just the bits and pieces;

Drac II
31-08-13, 06:20
What?

You know "what". This is not the "divide by x" case as with haplogroup frequency studies. Autosomal results are already averaged.



And?
Do those "isolated regions" not stand for themselves;
Yes they do (Genetically);

Not in the study they don't. They lumped all of Spain as one. So it is not possible to know what the results would have been for northern or western Spain, as opposed to southern or eastern Spain, had they decided to do something along the lines they did for Italy. Perhaps the majority of their autosomal "African" results was found more concentrated in the south or NW of Spain.


Concerning the Sub-Saharan admixture; just take a look at p.8 & p.9

Botigue et al 2013 - p.8 / p.9
http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2013/05/30/1306223110.DCSupplemental/sapp.pdf

ITA is lower than SPA
ITA is the same as GAL (Galicia)
ITA is much lower than AND (Andalusia)
TSI (Tuscans) is far lower than anything in Iberia
SWZ_IT is far lower than anything in Iberia

POR (Portugal) tops the charts again - by far;

The map [post#61] from this study [Botigue et al 2013] of course represents these values exactly;

The map is for IBDs. Their admixture results are another thing (the graphic I posted is a tabulation of these results.) Which takes us back to this:


Are you joking?
And have you noticed K=3/k=4/k=5

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/7307/k36fig3.png

And can you also provide the full study to that chart; and not just the bits and pieces;

Those results were tabulated from the exact same study (page 11)

And are you the one joking? K=6 is a better resolution than the lower Ks. At that higher level all the "sub-Saharan" in the non-Basque Spanish samples disappears, while in the non-Tuscan Italian samples there is still some visible.

Angela
31-08-13, 06:28
Actually it's the other way around: it is tiresome to engage in discussions with some Italian posters for precisely this reason. What is there to be concerned about? Well you tell me. All those things you try to argue against some Spanish posters actually apply to such Italian posters, ironically. You want to accept any claim said in dubious/junky/agenda-driven genetic papers about Spain, but not those about Italy.

The study was written by Italian geneticists themselves, and 52 Aims autosomal is still a better and more informative genetic quantifier than any haplogroup, which is only a small part of the DNA, yet you want to give preference to the latter simply because it seems to support your wishes that Spain should be more "African" than Italy.

Moorjani et al. 2011 did not "realize" anything, as far as I know. They still stick to their results and their claims, even though some of them are indeed faulty (their autosomal results are not entirely in agreement with haplogroup results of previous studies, as they wished to pretend they were.)

You mean like that recent pigmentation study that showed Portuguese as lighter than Italians and that your pal Nobody1 has been trying to "spin" since day 1, as he usually does with anything that goes "against" Italy in these topics?


Please don't lay all the blame on the Italian academics for that junk paper...there were Spaniards involved too :)

Also, I would totally agree that there are Italian posters on "anthrofora" who also don't know what they're talking about. There's a reason I don't frequent those sites. Furthermore, I don't speak for anyone but myself.

Did I ever say that y dna or mt dna is very informative about total genetic similarity? I think I'm on record all over this site saying the opposite.

Junk is junk no matter who does it...52 AIMS is ridiculous and totally outdated in terms of autosomal analysis. You are aware that autosomal studies today from internationally recognized universities use at least 500,000 autosomal snps, yes?

As for Patterson et al, and Lipson et al, it's the SAME exact people...the same group from Harvard and M.I.T. that produced Moorjani et al 2011. Honestly, I don't know how to make this any clearer...look at the authors of the Patterson et al paper (2012)...Moorjani is one of the authors of that and the subsequent Lipson et al.(2013) Moorjani et al 2011 was off because they didn't take into account the North Eurasian admixture which is higher in northern Europeans.

Moorjani et al 2011 was first. Dienekes explained why the methodology was wrong here...they used a two population model when they should have used a three population model (i.e. they didn't take into account the north east Asian shift in northern Europeans.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/04/sub-saharan-admixture-in-west-eurasian.html

Then, lo and behold, Patterson et al comes out, and then Lipson et al, which do use a three population model.
Patterson et al http://www.genetics.org/content/early/2012/09/06/genetics.112.145037.full.pdf
Lipson et al: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1212.2555v2.pdf
Lipson et al is discussed here:http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/12/efficient-moment-based-inference-of.html

It's very clear.

I don't see what the huge issue is...Look at Globe 13 dodecad analysis...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadF9CLUJnTUdSbkVJaDR2UkRtUE9ka UE#gid=2
All the Spanish populations are analyzed, as are the Italian populations.

The highest number for combined West African, Paleo African and East African for any Spanish population is 2.3, I think, in Galicians. Catalans seem to have about .3 West African. What's so terrible about that? As someone mentioned, for these alleles to be retained, perhaps they confer some sort of selective advantage in these environments.

By the way, the Sicilians have 1.7, the southern Italians have 1.2. In this particular analysis the Tuscans don't show any, but I've seen analyses, older ones, that show .5 or something. I'm sort of half Tuscan... should I get bent out of shape over this?

I truly regret bringing up the pigmentation study as it's so completely off topic...but no, I don't mean any comparison of people's skin tones...I mean actual snps for pigmentation.

The table I was thinking of is actually in the Lucotte et al 2011 study here:
http://www.academicjournals.org/JEBR/PDF/pdf2011/March/Lucotte%20and%20Yuasa%20pdf.pdf

The most recent study is Norton et al: http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/3/710.long

This is the pigmentation table from that study, which examines all five snps involved, but it's only of the HapMap populations.
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/suppl/2006/12/21/msl203.DC1/mbe-06-0529-File010_msl203.pdf

This is a graphic for all the populations:
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/3/710/F3.expansion.html
You can click on each map to see a larger version.

Of course, the only scientific purpose for this kind of study is to show that this trait is subject to selection based on the solar radiation of the location. There's no absolute value attached to having less pigmentation. You really shouldn't assume that everyone thinks there is...I, for one, quite prefer Mediterranean phenotypes. :)

(And, by the way, you're not understanding the importance of the lower "K" levels.)

And now, I'm out of this discussion. For one thing, all of this has been off-topic, and I apologize for my share in it. For another, there's no point in discussion if it's not going to be rational.

Noman
31-08-13, 10:48
Pigmentation is highly selected for so don't base ancestry on that. Meaning, yes, you don't have as much darnkness as you might because lightness is slected for by most mates. But that doesn't change the real ancestry of the person.

So we come back to what I said about looking at autosomal DNA for populations and how ridiculous it is. There's absolutely no such thing as a "neutral" marker that is homogenous in a population. They have to be selected on somehow for that to happen, and that completely invalidates ALL these nonsense studies.

I can't see how you can talk about rationality when you consistently say the y-dna and mtDNA in populations aren't indicative of anything but that skin color genes are.

Drac II
31-08-13, 11:07
Please don't lay all the blame on the Italian academics for that junk paper...there were Spaniards involved too :)

In cooperation with and approval of their Italian colleagues :)


Did I ever say that y dna or mt dna is very informative about total genetic similarity? I think I'm on record all over this site saying the opposite.

Junk is junk no matter who does it...52 AIMS is ridiculous and totally outdated in terms of autosomal analysis. You are aware that autosomal studies today from internationally recognized universities use at least 500,000 autosomal snps, yes?

52 AIMS might not be the best, but it still doesn't change the basic results. All populations were analyzed using the same autosomal method, yet the Italians came up with a higher proportion of what the authors concluded was "sub-Saharan African" than any of the other Europeans sampled. You can argue that the 9.2% figure might be inflated and the actual value is lower, but then again so would it be for the other populations. Whatever the actual percentages are, the proportions remain.


As for Patterson et al, and Lipson et al, it's the SAME exact people...the same group from Harvard and M.I.T. that produced Moorjani et al 2011. Honestly, I don't know how to make this any clearer...look at the authors of the Patterson et al paper (2012)...Moorjani is one of the authors of that and the subsequent Lipson et al.(2013) Moorjani et al 2011 was off because they didn't take into account the North Eurasian admixture which is higher in northern Europeans.

Moorjani et al 2011 was first. Dienekes explained why the methodology was wrong here...they used a two population model when they should have used a three population model (i.e. they didn't take into account the north east Asian shift in northern Europeans.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/04/sub-saharan-admixture-in-west-eurasian.html

Then, lo and behold, Patterson et al comes out, and then Lipson et al, which do use a three population model.
Patterson et al http://www.genetics.org/content/early/2012/09/06/genetics.112.145037.full.pdf
Lipson et al: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1212.2555v2.pdf
Lipson et al is discussed here:http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/12/efficient-moment-based-inference-of.html

It's very clear.

The fact that some people have found faults with a given study does not mean that their authors have acknowledged any of them and recanted. Many of these geneticists can be incredibly stubborn and will not accept faults in their methodology or conclusions. For example, of all the people who participated in that infamous Adams et al. (2008) study about Iberians, only one (Calafell) sort of recanted some of their absurd claims (the one about estimates of supposed "Jewish" ancestry by using Neolithic markers like J and I, which Calafell admitted were dubious at best.) It's been 5 years, and despite all the pointed out flaws and criticism, even by some of their fellow geneticists (Stephen Oppenheimer, for example), and the rest of the authors still have not "officially" recanted. So I still have my doubts that anyone from Moorjani et al. 2011 has rejected any of their conclusions either, just like so many other claims in genetic studies of this nature. Show me if you know any paper or interview by any of its authors where any of their own claims are rejected.



I don't see what the huge issue is...Look at Globe 13 dodecad analysis...
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/04/sub-saharan-admixture-in-west-eurasian.html
All the Spanish populations are analyzed, as are the Italian populations.

The highest number for combined West African, Paleo African and East African for any Spanish population is 2.3, I think, in Galicians. Catalans seem to have about .3 West African. What's so terrible about that? As someone mentioned, for these alleles to be retained, perhaps they confer some sort of selective advantage in these environments.

By the way, the Sicilians have 1.7, the southern Italians have 1.2. In this particular analysis the Tuscans don't show any, but I've seen analyses, older ones, that show .5 or something. I'm sort of half Tuscan... should I get bent out of shape over this?

Where are these figures? The link you posted is just a commentary on the Moorjani et al. 2011 paper.


I truly regret bringing up the pigmentation study as it's so completely off topic...but no, I don't mean any comparison of people's skin tones...I mean actual snps for pigmentation.

The table I was thinking of is actually in the Lucotte et al 2011 study here:
http://www.academicjournals.org/JEBR/PDF/pdf2011/March/Lucotte%20and%20Yuasa%20pdf.pdf

The most recent study is Norton et al: http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/3/710.long

This is the pigmentation table from that study, which examines all five snps involved, but it's only of the HapMap populations.
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/suppl/2006/12/21/msl203.DC1/mbe-06-0529-File010_msl203.pdf

This is a graphic for all the populations:
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/3/710/F3.expansion.html
You can click on each map to see a larger version.

Of course, the only scientific purpose for this kind of study is to show that this trait is subject to selection based on the solar radiation of the location. There's no absolute value attached to having less pigmentation. You really shouldn't assume that everyone thinks there is...I, for one, quite prefer Mediterranean phenotypes. :)

"Mediterranean" phenotypes have nothing to do with pigmentation, and I think you already realize that such conjectures about SNPs mean little when it comes to measuring actual skin pigmentation. The already referred to study that found Portuguese samples to be lighter than Italian samples (Candille et al. 2012) also found more of these SNPs among Italians than among Portuguese, yet when the actual measurement took place (in unexposed parts of the body, to avoid effects of tanning) the Italians were found to have a higher frequency of darker skin tones. When it comes to pigmentation studies, actual physical measurements still have the final word. "The proof is in the pudding", as they say.


(And, by the way, you're not understanding the importance of the lower "K" levels.)

And now, I'm out of this discussion. For one thing, all of this has been off-topic, and I apologize for my share in it. For another, there's no point in discussion if it's not going to be rational.

If you have been around genetic discussion forums, you will see that more reliance is placed on the higher K levels than on the lower.

Sile
31-08-13, 12:32
Yes, there were Iberians and Celts in Iberia before that. Haven't we been over this before? I think so. The Carthaginian armies in Europe (which ended up invading Italy through the Alps, BTW) were made up mostly of Iberian and Celtic mercenaries, not Carthaginians. They were a mercenary army. Carthaginians were not as nationalistic as their Roman foes at the time, when their armies were almost exlusively made up of Romans, not foreign conscripts.

I took your advice and used K12b Dodecad and found what I wanted...thanks



Population
Source
N
Northwest_African


Portuguese_D
Dodecad
9
7.7


Sephardic_Jews
Behar
19
6.2


Castilla_Y_Leon_1KG
1000Genomes
12
6.1


Extremadura_1KG
1000Genomes
8
6


Murcia_1KG
1000Genomes
8
6


Andalucia_1KG
1000Genomes
4
5.1


Spanish_D
Dodecad
20
5.1


Galicia_1KG
1000Genomes
8
5


Ashkenazy_Jews
Behar
17
4.2


Sicilian_D
Dodecad
15
4.1


Baleares_1KG
1000Genomes
6
3.7


Castilla_La_Mancha_1KG
1000Genomes
6
3.5


Aragon_1KG
1000Genomes
6
3.4


Cantabria_1KG
1000Genomes
6
3.1


Spaniards
Behar
10
3


Valencia_1KG
1000Genomes
10
3


Sardinian
HGDP
24
2.6


S_Italian_Sicilian_D
Dodecad
10
2.5


Cataluna_1KG
1000Genomes
8
2.4


C_Italian_D
Dodecad
13
2.3


O_Italian_D
Dodecad
5
1.1


N_Italian_D
Dodecad
5
0.9


TSI30
Metspalu
21
0.8


North_Italian
HGDP
11
0.7


French_Basque
HGDP
21
0




northwest African which is berber is on the far right

BTW, I care little for nations in Europe because I currently favour the removal of all nations in the EU so that the EU can be saved.

Nobody1
31-08-13, 13:32
The map is for IBDs. Their admixture results are another thing (the graphic I posted is a tabulation of these results.) Which takes us back to this:

Botigue et al 2013 -
North African samples that have highest IBD sharing with Iberian populations also tend to have the lowest proportion of the European cluster in ADMIXTURE(Fig.1), e.g. Saharawi, Tunisian, Berbers and South Moroccans.
This suggests that gene flow occurred from Africa to Europe rather than the other way around.

So the map [post # 61] and the IBD sharing results from p.8/p.9 are not as insignificant as you claim them to be;
And with Portugal and Spain having the highest IBD sharing with Africa - clearly reveals the gene flow;

Botigue et al 2013 - p.8/p.9
http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2013/05/30/1306223110.DCSupplemental/sapp.pdf


52 AIMS might not be the best, but it still doesn't change the basic results. All populations were analyzed using the same autosomal method, yet the Italians came up with a higher proportion of what the authors concluded was "sub-Saharan African" than any of the other Europeans sampled. You can argue that the 9.2% figure might be inflated and the actual value is lower, but then again so would it be for the other populations. Whatever the actual percentages are, the proportions remain.

Those 52 AIMs (Brisighelli et al 2013) also revealed that North Spain and Portugal are 7.7% sub-saharan admixture;

Knovas
31-08-13, 13:57
Actually when dealing with components such as Northwest African or East African, which are not purely African at all, the results should be taken with a lot of caution. For instance, an individual showing less than 1% East African it is unlikely to have any Sub-Saharan ancestry, since the West Eurasian shift can easily produce the aforementioned result. Even 0.5% Sub-Saharan is ridiculously low to be taken seriously (as fact). I know to some extent all Europeans carry some sort of admixture, so keep in mind I refer to something significant, relevant and easy to quantify, which I don't see it is the case in both Italy and Spain (note the one who's posting does not consider himself Spanish).

Checking idividual Globe13 results, all Europeans have 0.3%, 0.8% (and so on) of something. Time to wonder why.

Being that said, it seems to me some individuals keep going on trying to give more relevance always to the same exact things. And that's not only biased, but also incredibly boring.

PD: Nobody, your last post it is not true at all, or at least the conclusions stated in the paper. What North Africans share the most with Iberias is their Sardinian-like ancestry, labeled as Mediterranean in Dodecad experiments. So the gene flow occured mostly the other way around, I don't see the point in denying such thing when North Africans are, obviously, overwhelmingly West Eurasian regarding genetics. So that's the answer to the IBD sharing issue, I think there's no doubt about it.

RHAS
31-08-13, 14:06
Note! : Eupedia forum rule nr. 4. STAY ON TOPIC

"Avoid posting messages that are out of context or irrelevant to a topic. While we encourage your participation, such posts will either be moved to another forum or deleted in order to ensure a thread`s consistency. If you do want to write a post that is to off topic you can always start a new thread."

Topic = Haplogroup J2, Romans, Christianity and Viticulture.

RHAS
31-08-13, 14:07
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8qGNPo4QMA

RHAS
31-08-13, 14:07
Aeneas and J-M92.

Just some funny myth in this J-M92 maps regard i just noticed. The red area in Anatolia is were Troy was situated. Aeneas and his family, when he fled Troy, eventually ended up in Cumae near Naples (the other red area in Italy) were he saw some priestes of Apollo. She told him his descendants would create the Roman Empire. (Romulus and Remus)

"In Greco-Roman mythology, Aeneas (/ɪˈniːəs/; Greek: Αἰνείας, Aineías, possibly derived from Greek αἰνή meaning "praise") was a Trojan hero, the son of the prince Anchises and the goddess Aphrodite. His father was the second cousin of King Priam of Troy, making Aeneas Priam's second cousin, once removed. He is a character in Greek mythology and is mentioned in Homer's Iliad, and receives full treatment in Roman mythology as the legendary founder of what would become Ancient Rome, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid."
Aeneas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas

"An earlier tradition that gave Romulus a distant ancestor in the semi-divine Trojan prince Aeneas was further embellished, and Romulus was made the direct ancestor of Rome's first Imperial dynasty. Possible historical bases for the broad mythological narrative remain unclear and disputed. The image of the she-wolf suckling the divinely fathered twins became an iconic representation of the city and its founding legend, making Romulus and Remus preeminent among the feral children of ancient mythography."
Romulus and Remus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus

Haplogroup J-M92

https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/539802_497512770306883_1591683737_n.jpg

Map Navigatio Troiani Aeneas

http://www.bergbook.com/images/17715-01.jpg

Map travels of Aeneas.

http://www.daviddarling.info/images/journeys_of_Aeneas.jpg

RHAS
31-08-13, 14:31
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJnHLdGxhlc

RHAS
31-08-13, 14:32
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wLelD6PfEQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wLelD6PfEQ)

RHAS
31-08-13, 14:33
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFm6GaNTmlE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrNOkZ_rS6U)

RHAS
31-08-13, 18:35
Romans, Christianity and viticulture.

"Now nearly extinct in the wild, grapes (vitis vinifera) grew throughout the ancient Mediterranean, the juice readily fermenting as the enzymes of wild yeasts that naturally collect on the waxy skin break down the sugar content of the grape into alcohol and carbon dioxide. In Italy, grape vines were cultivated both in the north by the Etruscans and in the south by Greek colonists. Wine growing was less important to the Romans, who, in the early years of the Republic, were fighting to expand their domination of the peninsula. By the middle of the second century BC, however, with the defeat of the Etruscans and the Samnites, Pyrrhus and the Greeks, Philip of Macedonia and the Carthaginians, Rome controlled the Mediterranean, and there were both the wealth and markets to invest in vineyards.The earliest work on wine and agriculture was written in Punic. After the destruction of Carthage in 146 BC, the Senate decreed that this treatise be translated into Latin, and it subsequently became the source for all Roman writing on viticulture. Ironically, it was Cato who had insisted on the destruction of Carthage in the Punic wars and who, about 160 BC, wrote De Agri Cultura, the first survey of Roman viticulture, which, significantly, also is the earliest surviving prose work in Latin. In it, he discusses the production of wine on large slave-based villa estates, which suggests how important vine cultivation had become in an agrarian economy that traditionally was subsistence farming."
Wine and Rome.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/wine/wine.html

"Roman villas illustrate the Christianization of Europe, since the country villa served as "pieces of cities broken off" and Christianity originated as an urban religion.[39] The Galois aristocrats benefited from conversion by closer ties to Rome (and the emperor's family) after Constantine’s conversion. Roman culture was flexible, so a multicultural blend (or sympathetic intermingling) was usually the result with many villas religiously ambiguous. The local peasants (and their pagan traditions) were ignored; pre-Roman religious sites evolved into Roman cult sites and (later) Christian pilgrimage destinations. Because the church kept all records throughout the fall of Rome and the Middle Ages, historians have little information about local non-Christian beliefs."
Roman Villas in Northwestern Gaul.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_villas_in_northwestern_Gaul

Sile
31-08-13, 21:44
Aeneas and J-M92.

Just some funny myth in this J-M92 maps regard i just noticed. The red area in Anatolia is were Troy was situated. Aeneas and his family, when he fled Troy, eventually ended up in Cumae near Naples (the other red area in Italy) were he saw some priestes of Apollo. She told him his descendants would create the Roman Empire. (Romulus and Remus)

"In Greco-Roman mythology, Aeneas (/ɪˈniːəs/; Greek: Αἰνείας, Aineías, possibly derived from Greek αἰνή meaning "praise") was a Trojan hero, the son of the prince Anchises and the goddess Aphrodite. His father was the second cousin of King Priam of Troy, making Aeneas Priam's second cousin, once removed. He is a character in Greek mythology and is mentioned in Homer's Iliad, and receives full treatment in Roman mythology as the legendary founder of what would become Ancient Rome, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid."
Aeneas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas

"An earlier tradition that gave Romulus a distant ancestor in the semi-divine Trojan prince Aeneas was further embellished, and Romulus was made the direct ancestor of Rome's first Imperial dynasty. Possible historical bases for the broad mythological narrative remain unclear and disputed. The image of the she-wolf suckling the divinely fathered twins became an iconic representation of the city and its founding legend, making Romulus and Remus preeminent among the feral children of ancient mythography."
Romulus and Remus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus

https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/539802_497512770306883_1591683737_n.jpg

http://www.bergbook.com/images/17715-01.jpg

http://www.daviddarling.info/images/journeys_of_Aeneas.jpg

Where did you find that Aeneas ( an Anatolian dardanian ) was J-M92 ?.......or even that the Trojans where J-M92.
If this is correct, then Antenor who took the other Trojans via the black sea, along the Danube to settle in the lands of the north Adriatic area must be the same marker ............would you agree

adamo
31-08-13, 22:09
Excellent post. J-M92 which is downstream of J-M67 (M-67) first radiated out from the caucasus, it's highest frequencies are associated with Nakh people's. About 87.4% of Ingush men in Malgobek are positive for M-67. Also found in 58% of Chechens from Dagestan and 55% of Chechens in Chechnya. It's also very heavy among the CHECHENS of Malgobek (Ingushetia) 50%. On a national level, 15% of Georgians are M67. Also, 10% of Cretans and north-central Italians are M-67. It can also be found sporadically across turkey,Armenia,Azerbaijan at 5-10% frequencies. As for J-M92, it is downstream of J-M67. It reaches it's highest frequencies in western turkey and southern Italy, indicating a general movement of certain particular J2 people's from the Caucasus region towards Italy. There are other subclades of J2 although in Italy as well.

MOESAN
31-08-13, 22:16
On Sub-saharan......this is correct. Even though the Portuguese "owned" the western and south-east African areas and bought many many slaves to Lisbon for selling purposes. The "berber" E1b1b1 marker must have been in iberia, southern france and Italy way before the iron-age as the many in swiss and tyrol areas are noted as very very old branches of it. IMO it was one of the original markers in Iberia from the bronze-age.

I would even say this "berber" Y-E1b is for me older than any metal age: it could have been carried into all these lands at early neolithical time and even at mesolithical time (mesolithic in Iberia, maybe neolithic in Switzerland/Tyrol (some skeletons in neolithical Switzerland showed phenotypes that could confirm it, showing connexions with types of ancient sardinia and others with spouth-mediterranea types (? grimaldoids'? in part)

adamo
31-08-13, 22:29
The Achaean Greeks, equivalent to the Danaans of Danaus (brother of aegyptus) are a tribe of Greeks that probably came from Egypt. The initial pelasgian Greeks (first autochtones of Greece) where probably the middle eastern Ionians, who where similar to the Medes and Anatolian groups. The Minoan era belonged to the middle easterners of Crete (J2), their fall came about when the incoming Danaans types would initiate the succeeding Mycenean era centred this time on mainland Greece (E3b). The Mycenaeans would in turn be dominated by the continental European Dorians (probably R1b but maybe even I2a or R1a.)

adamo
31-08-13, 22:32
The Dorians are probably the tribe that brought along "Hellenization" of the barbarians. As for the Aeolians, they where barbarians as well. It is this combination of very anciently ancestrally Egyptian, middle eastern and continental European mix that would bring about the fall of the Trojan west Anatolian middle easterners.

adamo
31-08-13, 23:28
The spread of J is very interesting. It is found in about 27% of Algerians, for example. 22% of it is J1 and 5% is J2. A whopping 78% of Chechens belong to J, of which 57% are J2 and around 20% are J1. Ingush are an incredible sample, 91% of them are J's, but 88% of it is J2, most of it M-67 I believe. In Yemen, 82% of men are J, the overwhelming majority of it J1 (73%) as is the case across the southern Middle East and North Africa. In Syria on the other hand, 55% of males are J2; 34% are J1 and 21% are J2. In Lebanon, 46% of men are J; 15-17% are J1, and 30% are J2, showing the opposite tren of Syria. Same for turkey, where J2 is 3 times more common than J1. Similar patterns continue in Mediterranean Europe, on crete for example, in the city of Heraklion J2 heavily outweighs J1. (45% J of that,44% is J2). Another study on the entire island found that 38% of Cretans where J, and 35% of that was J2. On mainland Greece, 20% of males are J. 2% of those are J1, and 18% are J2. In Italy, 22% of men are J, 2% J1 and 20% J2.

adamo
01-09-13, 01:13
The highest frequencies of J2 in Italy, and nearly in all Europe, is in Calabria, where 35% of males are J2 and western Marche in central Italy, where 35% of men are J2.

Angela
01-09-13, 02:37
The highest frequencies of J2 in Italy, and nearly in all Europe, is in Calabria, where 35% of males are J2 and western Marche in central Italy, where 35% of men are J2.

Calabrians are also very high in the non-L11+ R1b lineages...perhaps a movement from the Balkans?

adamo
01-09-13, 03:32
Yes, some Greeks must have brought some R1b L-23, the Dorians in particular, who where Hellenic Greeks must have brought the exotic R1b's to southern Italy, as they brought some J2 and E-V13 as well.

RHAS
02-09-13, 04:05
Haplotype 35

https://sphotos-b-vie.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/644589_519597904765036_1604809963_n.jpg

"Research conducted by the administrators of the Border Reivers DNA Project has identified numerous haplotypes in persons of British descent that show Haplotype 35 markers. Moreover, most of these haplotypes appear to originate from areas of Britain near the Antonine Wall, Hadrian's Wall and other places of Roman fortification or settlement. These areas include Galloway, Dumfries, Ayrshire and The Borders in Scotland, and Cumbria, Yorkshire, Lancashire, Shropshire and Staffordshire in England. Many of the Roman troops stationed in these areas came from Southeastern Europe or Western Asia. They included Sarmatians, Dacians, Goths, Syrians, Mesopotamians, Thracians and Anatolians. The Capelli study has shown that these areas also exhibit higher than average frequencies of haplogroups E3b and J2, neither of which is native to Britain. E3b is found most commonly in North Africa, Iberia, the Mediterranean and the Near East, and J2 occurs most frequently in the Near East, the Mediterranean and Western Asia. The fact that all three groups - E3b, J2 and Haplotype 35 - have a similar origin in territories of the Roman Empire, and occur at comparable frequencies in parts of Britain with a known history of Roman settlement, suggests that they arrived in Britain through the same means."
Elliot (And border receivers) DNA Project (Haplogroup J2) - Haplogroup R1b (Haplotype 35).
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_r1b_ht35_analysis.htm

"The members of this haplotype are found in high numbers in Anatolia and Armenia, with smaller numbers throughout Central Asia, the Middle East, the Balkans, the Caucus Mountains, and in Jewish populations. They are also present in Britain in areas that were found to have a high concentration of Haplogroup J, suggesting they arrived together, perhaps through Roman soldiers."
Wikipedia.org - Haplotype 35.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplotype_35

adamo
03-09-13, 17:56
Haplogroup J has an interesting distribution in Italy. In Reggio Di Calabria, for example, on the toe of Calabria not too far from Sicily, 3.6 out of every 10 men belong to y-DNA J; the vast majority of it J2. The city of Paola in north-central Calabria is a peak of J in all Italy. In this western coastal region 4.5 out of every 10 men belongs to J. In neighbouring Matera though, only 13% of men are J, and only 12% for Altamura as well (extreme lows). In southern Apulia, (Casarano city), about 25% of men are of the J family. Similar frequencies are observed in Brindisi (central Apulia) 24%. Northern Apulia (Foggia) near the gargano peninsula has the highest levels of J (along with Paola) 44% J. Cilento, southern Campania has 28% of J lineages. To the north, Benevento has 26% J. Also on the Molise/Apulia border (where Foggia connects with Campobasso) around 3.8 out of 10 men are J's. in central Italy, the town of Avezzano (Abruzzo region) has 20% J. L'Aquila was found to have 35% J in one study, and Pescara has 30% J. Frequencies In Verona (Veneto) are still present for some reason (27% J.) As for Genoa, Garfagnana, Val Di Non they have very low frequencies (9-10%) as the north (Gallic settlement areas) have less J obviously. In terms of the three islands (Sicily,Sardinia,Corsica) Sicily has, by far, the highest middle eastern Neolithic blood (30%), all of it J2. Whereas Corsica only has 3% J2 and Sardinia has 5%. Although, the opposite can be said in terms of E3b, as this peaks on the island of Corsica (15%), but also found in Sardinia (10%) as compared to Sicily (5%) in this study. When comparing J in Italy to frequencies in Iberia, for example, we can see that Italy peaks at 45% J, in two regions, northern Apulia, and central Calabria. Frequencies are relatively elevated though across Sicily, Apulia, campania, parts of Marche and Abruzzo, found in 20% of men across Lazio as well are J2 alone. Whereas the biggest peak in all Iberia is in Cadiz, where only 18% of men belong to J. Sicily also has abnormally high levels of y-dna F (12%) and much more J2 than E3b, insinuating a different point of arrival for these agriculturalists than the E3b ones.

RHAS
03-09-13, 18:26
Roman DNA

"Dennis Cleeton from Llandrindod Wells, Powys has spent 20 years tracking his ancestors back to the 16th Century - then a chance request to take a DNA test took him back even further to the invading Roman armies."
BBC News - DNA links pensioner with Romans
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/7804845.stm

"De komende maanden zullen wetenschappers van de KU Leuven DNA-stalen nemen in een aantal regio's om na te gaan of er een genetische band bestaat tussen de huidige inwoners van Vlaanderen en de Romeinse bezetters van 2.000 jaar geleden."
Leven er nog Romeinen in Vlaanderen?
http://www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/binnenland/1.1441551

Transated: The comming months researchers of the University of Leuven will collect DNA samples in a number of regions to see if there is a genetic link between the current inhabitants of Flanders and the Roman occupiers from 2000 years go.

"Bij 50 inwoners van Snellegem is een DNA-staal genomen. Dat gebeurde in het kader van een onderzoek van de KU Leuven. Wetenschappers willen nagaan of er in de regio nog mensen zijn met een genetische band met de Romeinse bezetters."
DNA-test gaat op zoek naar nakomelingen van de Romeinen in Snellegem
http://www.focus-wtv.be/nieuws/algemeen/dna-test-gaat-op-zoek-naar-nakomelingen-van-de-romeinen-in-snellegem/article-4000186010538.htm

Translated: DNA samples of 50 Snellegem inhabitants was collected. This happend in the light of the University of Leuven`s research project. Sientist are trying to determine of there is a genetic link between the current inhabitants and the Roman invaders.

"In hoeverre stammen de Vlamingen nog af van de Romeinen die onze gebieden 2000 jaar geleden bezetten? Dat proberen wetenschappers van de universiteit van Leuven te achterhalen. Ze doen daarvoor een groot DNA-onderzoek. Mannen op verschillende plaatsen in Vlaanderen staan vrijwillig een speekselstaal af om dat te laten analyseren."
Stammen we af van de Romeinen?
http://nieuws.vtm.be/binnenland/2013010828008-stammen-we-af-van-de-romeinen

Translated: To what extend are Flemish people descendant of Romans who occupied these areas 2000 years ago? Researchers of the Leuven University are trying to determine that. They will do this by means of a large DNA project. Men at different locations in Flanders are volunteering to have their DNA samples collected.

"Parys Mountain is one of only three sites in Wales which have evidence of copper mining during the Bronze and Roman Ages."
BBC News - DNA test to prove Bronze Age link.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/north_west/8007969.stm

http://www.deredactie.be/polopoly_fs/1.1441559!image/1019570329.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape670/1019570329.jpg

RHAS
04-09-13, 07:36
Romans, agriculture/viticulture.

"Agriculture in ancient Rome was not only a necessity, but was idealized among the social elite as a way of life. Cicero considered farming the best of all Roman occupations. In his treatise On Duties, he declared that "of all the occupations by which gain is secured, none is better than agriculture, none more profitable, none more delightful, none more becoming to a free man." When one of his clients was derided in court for preferring a rural lifestyle, Cicero defended country life as "the teacher of economy, of industry, and of justice" (parsimonia, diligentia, iustitia). Cato, Columella, Varro and Palladius wrote handbooks on farming practice. The staple crop was spelt, and bread was the mainstay of every Roman table. In his treatise De agricultura ("On Farming", 2nd century BC), Cato wrote that the best farm was a vineyard, followed by an irrigated garden, willow plantation, olive orchard, meadow, grain land, forest trees, vineyard trained on trees, and lastly acorn woodlands."
Roman Agriculture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_agriculture

http://www.whittinghams.me.uk/images/web/j2b-ds.png

RHAS
04-09-13, 18:38
So only the Roman Republic and the early Roman Empire [Augustus/Tiberius] can truly be considered Roman (Italic/Etruscan) and it was during this time (Republic-Tiberius) that Rome became an ancient super-power and conquered its Empire; And therefor that epoch is far from Irrelevant;

Haplogroup J2 M172 & Expansion Map of the Roman Empire.

https://sphotos-a-vie.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1150305_591299907594835_72728669_n.jpg

Haplogroup J2 M172 - Roman Republic.

https://sphotos-b-vie.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1236259_591804834211009_98755787_n.jpg

adamo
05-09-13, 14:43
The highest European frequencies of J are in Cyprus (36%), Crete (36%), Sicily (30%), Mainland Italy (25%) Mainland Greece (20%), Malta (20%), Albania (15%), Bulgaria (10%), Romania (10%), Spain (10%), Portugal (10%).

RHAS
08-09-13, 07:24
Romans & Haplogroup J2.

"J2a`s strong presence in Italy is owed in great part to the migration of the Etruscans from western Anatolia to central and northern Italy, and to the Greek colonisation of southern Italy. Immigration from the eastern Mediterranean to Rome during the Roman Empire, then from Anatolia, Thrace and Greece during the Byzantine period period (particularly in north-eastern Italy) further increased the incidence of j2 in the peninsula."
Eupedia.com - Haplogroup J2. (2013)
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

"The likely deep ancestry source of Haplogroup J2 as found along the Anglo-Scottish border is probably to be found with members of the Roman Legions which were stationed along Hadrian's wall."
Border receivers - DNA Report Nov 2005.
http://www.borderreivers.co.uk/DNA%2...20Nov%2005.htm (http://www.borderreivers.co.uk/DNA%20Report%207%20Nov%2005.htm)

RHAS
09-09-13, 18:07
The Achaean Greeks, equivalent to the Danaans of Danaus (brother of aegyptus) are a tribe of Greeks that probably came from Egypt. The initial pelasgian Greeks (first autochtones of Greece) where probably the middle eastern Ionians, who where similar to the Medes and Anatolian groups. The Minoan era belonged to the middle easterners of Crete (J2), their fall came about when the incoming Danaans types would initiate the succeeding Mycenean era centred this time on mainland Greece (E3b). The Mycenaeans would in turn be dominated by the continental European Dorians (probably R1b but maybe even I2a or R1a.)


The Dorians are probably the tribe that brought along "Hellenization" of the barbarians. As for the Aeolians, they where barbarians as well. It is this combination of very anciently ancestrally Egyptian, middle eastern and continental European mix that would bring about the fall of the Trojan west Anatolian middle easterners.

"The majority of the haplogroups (R1a-M17, G2a-P15, I2-M438, J1-M267 and J2b-M102) shows times since expansion which ranges from approximately 4,5Kya to 2,7Kya, compatible with Bronze Age and the development of the Helladic civilizations, more specifically with the spread of Mycenaean culture (Montjoy 1998)."
The Genetic Signature of Neolithic in Greece.
http://amsdottorato.cib.unibo.it/3628/1/Anagnostou_Paolo_tesi.pdf

RHAS
03-10-13, 22:17
Romans & Haplogroup J2.

"The Plantagenets are a bit more difficult to predict as some speculate that they are related to the Carpetian kings of France and descended from Roman citizens in the haplogroup J2 or G2."
Y-DNA of the British Monarchy.
http://www.surnamedna.com/?articles=y-dna-of-the-british-monarchy

Alan
03-10-13, 23:06
LeBrok, you blocked me on another thread about J2a so I do answer your question here.
[quote] ” Are you trying to confuse us on purpose?
According to you, Aryans originally were J2a (IE and came from steppe), conquered mesopotamia, populated it with high J2a, which later gave start to Jews, their main HG? Other words, proto Jews were Aryans.
Now, Hitler would really flip. “ [/quote
]
Huh? You’re twisting my words. I never said that J2a is from Central Asia. J2a is native to the mountains of West Asia. J2a was born & evolved somewhere between the Taurus of Zagros mountains of West Asia. R1a-Z93 was native to (the north-western parts of) the Iranian Plateau & Central Asia, has been living there for thousands of years.

According to the Jewish scientists themselves, proto-Jews were J2a folks and came from the mountains

Proto Jews if anything were a mix of E1b, J1 and J2 just like most Semites. Don't through arguments with no evidence into the room. J2a and Jewish origin is not even a theory but pure speculation.

RHAS
04-10-13, 20:18
Note! : Eupedia forum rule nr. 4. STAY ON TOPIC

"Avoid posting messages that are out of context or irrelevant to a topic. While we encourage your participation, such posts will either be moved to another forum or deleted in order to ensure a thread`s consistency. If you do want to write a post that is to off topic you can always start a new thread."

Topic = Haplogroup J2, Romans, Christianity and Viticulture.

RHAS
04-10-13, 20:21
Romans & Christianity


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om5SA6El3yA

RHAS
19-10-13, 00:56
Romans and Haplogroup J2.

"Attempts to ascertain Sicilian "ethnic" origins should be undertaken with caution because haplogroups do not correspond precisely to medieval or modern conceptions of nationality. At best, they are approximate. For example, J2 is identified with Greeks but also with some Germans. Speaking very broadly, the most frequent Y haplogroups of the world's most conquered island may be correlated most probably (albeit imprecisely) to the following peoples: • J2 - Greeks, Romans, Jews, Spaniards,"
Best of Sicily - Genetics
http://www.bestofsicily.com/genetics.htm

https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1235530_621418664582959_1325191331_n.jpg

RHAS
20-10-13, 05:40
Etruscans (J2) and Rome.

"From about 700 BCE, the Etruscans settled around Tuscany and the Greeks in southern Italy. Etruscans probably came from Palestine and brought haplogroups J1, J2 and E with them. The Greeks in Italy were Doric and brought J2, E, G2a and probably more R1b (see above). The Romans progressively absorbed the Etruscans and Italian Greeks and mixed with them. By the time of Julius Caesar Roman citizens were probably composed of 45% of R1b, 20% of J, 15% of E, 15% of G2a and 5% of I2a."
Eupedia.com - Y-DNA haplogroups of ancient civilizations.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25163-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-ancient-civilizations (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25163-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-ancient-civilizations)

"A 2004 study by Semino et al. contradicted this study, and showed that Italians in North-central regions (like Tuscany and Emilia-Romagna) had a higher concentration of J2 than their Southern counterparts. North-central had 26.9% J2, whereas Calabria (a far Southern region) had 20.0%, Sardinia had 9.7% and Sicily had 16.7%. This could be because of the ancient Etruscans, who some think originated in the Near East."
Wikipedia.org - Genetic History of Italy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Italy

"Occurrence of J2-M172 Y-chromosomes in Tuscany has been related to the Etruscan heritage of the region."
Uniparental Markers of Contemporary Italian Population Reveals Details on Its Pre-Roman Heritage.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0050794

"Wine making spread to Crete during the Minoan period and then later to Italy with the Etruscans and to Iberia with the Phoenicians. It was an integral component of the economy and social culture of the proto-greek civilizations and the phoenicians who both went on to settle other mediterranean coastal regions. And tracing the spread of Viticulture from its origins to its spread before the Roman period, we can see te highest levels of Haplogroup J2 today correlate with the geographical centres of all these civilizations. While viticulture may not represent the first wave of M172 migrants to Europe, M172 certainly played a strong role in bringing Viticulture to Europe with such civilizations as the Minoans, Greeks and Phoenicians."
M172 Blog - Correlations in the spread of Viticulture and Haplogroup J2, 2008.
http://m172.blogspot.nl/2008/10/corr...ticulture.html

"J2a`s strong presence in Italy is owed in great part to the migration of the Etruscans from western Anatolia to central and northern Italy, and to the Greek colonisation of southern Italy. Immigration from the eastern Mediterranean to Rome during the Roman Empire, then from Anatolia, Thrace and Greece during the Byzantine period period (particularly in north-eastern Italy) further increased the incidence of j2 in the peninsula."
Eupedia.com - Haplogroup J2. (2013)
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml)

"The presence of J2 haplotypes in central Italy may be related to the debated hypothesis of an Anatolian origin of the Etruscan people, as suggested by mtDNA analysis on modern and ancient samples (Francalacci et al., 1996; Vernesi et al., 2004; Achilli et al., 2007), although it could be arrived in the region much earlier following the Neolithic expansion."
Phylogeography of Y-chromosome in Europe.
http://eprints.uniss.it/2783/1/Francalacci_P_Articolo_2008_History.pdf (http://eprints.uniss.it/2783/1/Francalacci_P_Articolo_2008_History.pdf)

"A certain occurrence of J2-M172 Y-chromosomes in Tuscany has been related to the Etruscan heritage of the region (Achilli et al., 2007)."
Phylogeography of Y-chromosome in Europe.
http://eprints.uniss.it/2783/1/Francalacci_P_Articolo_2008_History.pdf (http://eprints.uniss.it/2783/1/Francalacci_P_Articolo_2008_History.pdf)

Etruscan Origins of Rome and Italy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWudBCYO8ZE

RHAS
20-10-13, 07:48
Romans and Haplogroup J2.

"If J2b-Delta is a separate discrete lineage within J2b, this could have implications regarding when the lineage arrived in the British Isles. At present the two main hypotheses regarding the arrival of J2 in the British Isles that are commonly touted are 1) Neolithic farmers 2) Roman soldiers."
J2 Y-DNA Poject - J2 Cluster Analysis.
http://j2-ydnaproject.org/analysisphase3.html

RHAS
21-10-13, 00:05
Haplogroup J2, Britain, Romans and Viticulture.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1403555_622024857855673_177574294_o.jpg

"Rome's influence on Britain with respect to wine is not so much viticultural as it is cultural. Throughout modern history, the British have played a key role in shaping the world of wine and defining global wine markets. Though evidence of V. vinifera vines in the British Isles dates back to the Hoxnian Stage when the climate was much warmer than i...t is today, British interest in wine production greatly increased following the Roman conquest of Britain in the 1st century AD.

Amphoras from Italy indicate that wine was regularly transported to Britain at great expense by sea, around the Iberian Peninsula. The development of wine-producing regions in Bordeaux and Germany made supplying the needs of Roman colonists much easier at less cost. The presence of amphora production houses found in what is now Brockley and Middlesex indicates that the British probably had vineyards of their own as well.

There is clear evidence that the Roman cult of Bacchus, the wine god, was practiced in Britain: more than 400 artifacts depicting his likeness have been found throughout Britain. Included in the Mildenhall Treasure collection is a silver dish engraved with Bacchus having a drinking contest with Hercules. In Colchester, excavations have uncovered containers identifying over 60 different types of wines from Italy, Spain, the Rhine and Bordeaux."
Ancient Rome and Wine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome_and_wine

RHAS
21-10-13, 13:45
"Romans surely helped spread haplogroup J2 across its borders, judging from the distribution of J2 within Europe (frequency over 5%) wich bears an uncanny resemblance to the borders of the Roman Empire."
Eupedia.com, 2013.

-----------------------------------------

J2-M172 Y-DNA European Countries Population Estimate Top 25 + Civilisations.
(Top 25 of all countries included in this research & major civilisations/tribes they were part of.)

1. Turkey/Anatolia (8.966.912) - (Ancient Greece*, Thrace, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire)
2. Italy (5.513.513) - (Ancient Greece*, Etruscan, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Holy Roman Empire)
3. France (2.198.498) - (Ancient Greece*, Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Holy Roman Empire)
4. Russia (2.137.766) - (Ancient Greece*, Sarmatia, Scythia, Russian Empire)
5. Germany (1.829.382) - (Germania, Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Holy Roman Empire)
6. Ukraine (1.457.757) - (Ancient Greece*, Sarmatia, Scythia)
7. Romania (1.420.153) - (Ancient Greece*, Thrace, Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire)
8. Spain (1.417.960) - (Ancient Greece*, Phoenician, Roman Empire, Gothic Kingdom, Moors, Spanish Empire)
9. Greece (1.238.300) - (Ancient Greece*, Greek Seleucid Empire*, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman)
10. England (892.500) - (Roman Empire, British Empire)
11. Bulgaria (545.440) - (Ancient Greece*, Thrace, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire)
12. Portugal (512.119) - (Ancient Greece*, Phoenician, Roman Empire)
13. Netherlands (501.919) - (Germania, Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Holy Roman Empire)
14. Austria (493.185) - (Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Holy Roman Empire, Austria- Hungarian Empire)
15. Poland (480.192) - (Sarmatia, Polish Kingdom, Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Vlach & German Settlers)
16. Hungary (348.546) - (Roman Empire, Kingdom of Hungary, Austria- Hungarian Empire)
17. Czech Republic (305.319) - (Roman Empire, Holy Roman Empire)
18. Albania (292.779) - (Ancient Greece*, Illyria, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire)
19. Switserland (240.000) - (Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Holy Roman Empire)
20. Serbia (236.490) - (Ancient Greece*, Roman Empire, Austria- Hungarian Empire, Ottoman Empire)
21. Cyprus (203.378) - (Ancient Greece*, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire)
22. Sweden (143.101) - (Germanic, Nordic, Viking, Kingdom of Sweden, Swedish Empire)
23. Macedonia (FYROM) (124.942) - (Ancient Greece*, Macedon, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire)
24. Bosnia-Herzegovina (116.379) - (Illyria, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire)
25. Slovakia (108.906) - (Scytho-Thracian, Celts, Roman Empire, Kingdom of Hungary)

J2-M172 Y-DNA Countries Of All Regions Population Estimate Top 25 + Civilisations.
(Top 25 of all countries included in this research & major civilisations/tribes they were part of.)

1. Turkey/Anatolia (8.966.912) - (Ancient Greece*, Thrace, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire)
2. Italy (5.513.513) - (Ancient Greece*, Etruscan, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Holy Roman Empire)
3. Egypt (4.510.000) - (Ancient Egypt, Greek Ptolemaic Kingdom*, Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire)
4. Iran (4.508.980) - (Parthian Empire, Greek Seleucid Empire*, Greco-Bactrian Kingdom*, Persian Empire)
5. Iraq (3.035.099) - (Mesopotamia, Greek Seleucid Empire*, Roman Empire, Persian Empire, Ottoman Empire)
6. France (2.198.498) - (Ancient Greece*, Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Holy Roman Empire)
7. Russia (2.137.766) - (Ancient Greece*, Sarmatia, Scythia, Russian Empire)
8. Syria (1.915.113) - (Mesopotamia, Phoenician, Greek Seleucid Empire*, Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire)
9. Germany (1.829.382) - (Germania, Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Holy Roman Empire)
10. Ukraine (1.457.757) - (Ancient Greece*, Sarmatia, Scythia)
11. Romania (1.420.153) - (Ancient Greece*, Thrace, Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire)
12. Spain (1.417.960) - (Ancient Greece*, Phoenician, Roman Empire, Gothic Kingdom, Moors, Spanish Empire)
13. Azerbaijan (1.397.663) - (Scythia, Greek Seleucid Empire*, Roman Empire, Persian Empire)
14. Greece (1.238.300) - (Ancient Greece*, Greek Seleucid Empire*, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman)
15. England (892.500) - (Celtic, Roman Empire, British Empire)
16. Georgia (603.342) - (Ancient Greece*, Roman Empire)
17. Lebanon (549.120) - (Phoenician, Persian Empire, Greek Seleucid Empire*, Roman Empire, Ottoman)
18. Bulgaria (545.440) - (Ancient Greece*, Thrace, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire)
19. Portugal (512.119) - (Ancient Greece*, Phoenician, Roman Empire)
20. Netherlands (501.919) - (Germania, Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Holy Roman Empire)
21. Austria (493.185) - (Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Holy Roman Empire)
22. Morocco (489.666) - (Phoenician, Roman Empire)
23. Poland (480.192) - (Sarmatia, Polish Kingdom, Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Vlach & German Settlers)
24. Jordan (423.038) - (Greek Seleucid Empire*, Roman Empire, Persian Empire, Ottoman Empire)
25. Armenia (358.842) - (Kingdom of Armenia, Roman Empire, Persian Empire. Ottoman Empire, Russian)

Taken from: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28986-J2-Population-Size-Estimates
Original File: https://www.facebook.com/download/647485381934504/J2%20Y-DNA%20Population%20Size%20Estimates.docx

RHAS
21-10-13, 14:48
https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1395772_622326191158873_1248586073_n.jpg

BritainsDNA Press Releases - BritainsDNA finds the Lost Legions.
http://www.britainsdna.com/about/press-releases

RHAS
21-10-13, 14:49
https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/1380084_622325291158963_1434254641_n.jpg

BritainsDNA Press Releases - BritainsDNA finds the Lost Legions.
http://www.britainsdna.com/about/press-releases

RHAS
21-10-13, 14:50
https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1380679_622324627825696_904941909_n.jpg

BritainsDNA Press Releases - BritainsDNA finds the Lost Legions.
http://www.britainsdna.com/about/press-releases

adamo
21-10-13, 20:52
Really....only 400,000-500,000 j2 men in Lebanon and Georgia, I doubt that ; it should be more

RHAS
22-10-13, 06:34
Haplogroup J2, Romans & Britain.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1403681_622703424454483_2047931370_o.jpg

"Little is known of Aulus Plautius's early career. An inscription reveals he was involved in the suppression of a slave revolt in Apulia, probably in 24, alongside Marcus Aelius Celer.[1] He was suffect consul for the second half of 29, and held a provincial governorship, probably of Pannonia, in the early years of Claudius's reign: another inscription shows he oversaw the building of a road between Trieste and Rijeka at this time. Claudius appointed him to lead his invasion of Britannia in 43, in support of Verica, king of the Atrebates and an ally of Rome, who had been deposed by his eastern neighbours the Catuvellauni. The army was composed of four legions, IX Hispana, then in Pannonia, II Augusta, XIV Gemina, and XX Valeria Victrix, plus approximately 20,000 auxiliary troops, including Thracians and Batavians."
Aulus Plautius
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aulus_Plautius

"It is important to note that at least four additional YDNA markers may have arrived with the Romans. What have been described as the Balkan group (E-V13), the Ancient Caucasians (G-S314), the Herdsman-Farmers (J-M172 – and a sub-group of this, M67, looks particularly Italian) and the Anatolian marker (R1b-M269*), when taken together, potentially add another 2.3 million Englishmen and Welshmen who could trace their fatherlines to the veterans of the II Augusta, the IX Hispana, the XIV Gemina, the XX Valeria Victrix and the other Italians who crossed to Britain in their wake."
BritainsDNA Press Releases - BritainsDNA finds the Lost Legions.
http://www.britainsdna.com/about/press-releases

"Cruciani et al.’s E-V13 and J2-M12 coalescence times bear a striking similarity to carbon-14-based date calculations for certain archaeological sites in the Maritsa river valley and its tributaries, near the city of Nova Zagora, Bulgaria (Nilolova, 2002). These sites are associated directly with the proto-Thracian culture of the southern Balkans that came to dominate the region during the first millennium BCE. Sites surveyed included Ezero, Yunatsite, Dubene-Sarovka and Plovdiv-Nebet Tepe, all of which had deep associations with the developing EBA proto-Thracian culture of the region."
Haplogroup E3b1a2 as a Possible Indicator of Settlement in Roman Britain by Soldiers of Balkan Origin.
http://www.jogg.info/32/bird.htm

RHAS
22-10-13, 08:14
Haplogroup J2 and Romans.

"A recent DNA test was a bit of a surprise and has proven some of my family never made it home. J2 M172 is a very strange and rare YDNA for a English family to have. The best answer I have found was Syrian archers or others brought in from the middle east passed their genetic line onto my ancestors during the roman occupation of England."
A whole bunch of Ing's.
http://www.awholebunchofings.com/2012_04_01_archive.html (http://www.awholebunchofings.com/2012_04_01_archive.html)

"The J2 haplogroup can be found in today's populations with notable frequency in Italy, Iberia, Turkey, Albania, Greece and even India, and most likely interacted with numerous cultures, including the Greeks and Romans."
Whittingham Family Ancestry.
http://www.whittinghams.me.uk/DNA.htm (http://www.whittinghams.me.uk/DNA.htm)

"De haplogroep J is typerend voor de bevolking uit Zuid-Oost Europa, meer bepaald voor centraal en Zuid-Italië, Griekenland en Roemenië. Het wordt ook vaak teruggevonden in Frankrijk, Turkije en het Midden-Oosten. Deze haplogroep kan in verband worden gebracht met de oude Grieken, de Romeinen alsook de Pheniciërs."
The Sas Family - DNA en Genealogie. (Dutch)
http://thesasfamily.zsite.be/dna-en-genealogie (http://thesasfamily.zsite.be/dna-en-genealogie)

"Haplogroup J2, is associated with the Romans, who also invaded Britain much earlier in about 90 AD."
Clan Strachan Society.
http://clanstrachan.org/activities/Genealogy/articles/reading_y-dna.htm (http://clanstrachan.org/activities/Genealogy/articles/reading_y-dna.htm)

"The J2 haplogroup came to England either through middle Eastern Roman soldiers who were stationed on the island (most common explanation), through Sephardic traders (not many of those), or through the migration to the island of gypsies in the 16th century (only being thought of as a possible source very recently)."
Harvey Genealogy.
http://history.earthsci.carleton.ca/harvey/genealogy/dnatestingindex.htm (http://history.earthsci.carleton.ca/harvey/genealogy/dnatestingindex.htm)

"McGregor (5356) and the two brothers (7422 and 9338) belong to a DNA haplotype J2 that is found in Britain, but rarely. It is most common in Eastern European countries, leading to speculation that it is either from gypsy background or, possibly, from Eastern European soldiers stationed in Britain during the Roman occupation in the first three centuries AD."
The MacGregor DNA Project.
http://themacgregordnaproject.blogspot.nl/2005/08/where-are-we-now-update.html (http://themacgregordnaproject.blogspot.nl/2005/08/where-are-we-now-update.html)

"J2 has been well studied and can be split into several clades but whose mode of individual distribution is not well understood. Many influences such as Greek and Roman would have played a part."
Wells Family DNA Project.
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~wellsfam/dnaproje/haplogroupJ.html (http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~wellsfam/dnaproje/haplogroupJ.html)

"How our more recent ancestors ended up in England is still a mystery. It could have been a random migration of a single man. During the Roman occupation of Europe many people immigrated there from many areas of the world. Soldiers were sent there to serve military obligations. One of these might have been a man from the Mediterranean area. His descendants eventually took the surname Field and he might have been our earliest J2b2 ancestor."
Genetic Journey of our branch of the Field family.
http://www.luciefield.net/geneticjourney.html (http://www.luciefield.net/geneticjourney.html)

"Haplogroup J2b is most common in the Middle East and reaches its highest percentages in Turkey. In Europe, the largest J2b populations are in Greece, Albania and Italy. This haplogroup is rare in Britain where it could represent remnants of eastern Mediterranean troops stationed on the island during the Roman occupation."
Munley/Manley Surname Project.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Munley/default.aspx (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Munley/default.aspx)

"I've just had my DNA tested and it's coming up as a J2 Haplogroup, which probably means my ancient relation was most likely a Roman Legionaire garrisoned to the UK."
Genealogy: Jim Manley's Family Tree.
http://jimstree.blogspot.nl/ (http://jimstree.blogspot.nl/)

"Someone of J2a3d descent must have been living in Blacker Hill Yorkshire and acquired the Blacker name. They may well have descended from a Roman soldier or sailor from Lincoln or York who in turn must have been descended from the Phoenicians perhaps via Cantabria."
Lost Langtons.
http://www.lostlangtons.co.uk/HaplogroupJ2a4d.shtml (http://www.lostlangtons.co.uk/HaplogroupJ2a4d.shtml)

"One coat of arms firm claims that the Judkins actually originated in Suffolk, England in far ancient times. This is where the celtic Coritani tribe of Rutland, Leiceister & Lincolnshire originated so this would preclude a Scottish origin prior to 1500 if the Judkins/Blackard J2 DNA type is linked to the Coritani rather than Romans."
Blackard Family History Blog.
http://blackardfamilyhistory.blogspot.nl/ (http://blackardfamilyhistory.blogspot.nl/)

"The Mediterranean and Middle Eastern group consists of the the two Es, the G and the two J2s. Whit Athey and others have theorized that this group is associated with the Neolithic spread of agriculture from the Middle East into Europe. On the other hand, a more recent paper by Steven C. Bird argues for a Roman origin for J2 and E3b at least."
Francis Surname Project.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Francissurnameproject/ (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Francissurnameproject/)

"Sometime prior to that a Bretz ancestor must have come into Germany from the south, from Italy or Greece. Some researchers have suggested a family connection to Fabius Bretius, a Roman General, who came from the districts of Capua and Taranto in southern Italy to the town Trier, Germany around 224. Whether this connection is genuine or not, and it is impossible to know for sure, perhaps Roman conquests did bring Bretz DNA north 1,800 years ago as they did with so many other things. For some additional thoughts on the possible Latin origins of the family, also read the Genealogia Bretius."
Bretz Family, Haplogroup J2.
http://www.bretz.ca/GenWeb/html/dna/Y-bretz/ (http://www.bretz.ca/GenWeb/html/dna/Y-bretz/)

"The bulk of J2 may have been brought to Britain by mercenaries recruited by the Romans."
Family Banks DNA Project.
https://sites.google.com/site/banksprojectsite/the-j-p215-groups (https://sites.google.com/site/banksprojectsite/the-j-p215-groups)

"We now have two members of Haplogroup J1 and 6 members of Haplogroup J2 in the Fox Poject. This is a Mediterranean Haplogroup but exists all over Europe to some extent. The Romans are thought to have brought this Haplogroup to Britain."
Fox FamilytreeDNA Project.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/FoxDNA/ (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/FoxDNA/)

"In Europe, the largest J2b populations are in Greece, Albania and Italy. This haplogroup is rare in Britain where it could represent remnants of eastern Mediterranean troops stationed on the island during the Roman occupation."
Cotton/Cotten DNA Project.
http://home.comcast.net/~cottondna/haplogroups.htm (http://home.comcast.net/~cottondna/haplogroups.htm)

"The Greek and Phoenician presence also brought J2 into France and of course the Roman period also would have been a major contributor of Haplogroup J2 into what is today, France. So although, rare, Haplogroup J2 can be found in local populations throughout France and Spain."
Dugas Family.
http://dugas.weebly.com/dna.html (http://dugas.weebly.com/dna.html)

"J2 - This haplogroup originated during the Neolithic in Central Asia, and spread across the Mediterranean and the Middle East. It may have been brought to Britain by prehistoric farmers, Greek or Phoenician traders and Sephardic Jews among the Normans and the Flemish - as well as by Roman troops and settlers."
Elliot (And border receivers) DNA Project.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/ (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/)

"J2 has been traced back to the area between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea that comprises territory in northwestern Iraq and Iran, eastern Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia. One theory offered for the presence of J2 in northern England is the presence of Roman auxiliary soldiers stationed on Hadrian's Wall. It has been suggested that the original J2 ancestor of our Robson member may have been a Sarmatian horseman in the Roman legions."
Robson/Robeson/Robison Family DNA Project.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Robson/ (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Robson/)

RHAS
22-10-13, 08:46
Haplogroup J2 & Romans.

"Although Normandy has so far been established as the origin of this family, a family legend related in a poem places their origin earlier, perhaps, even to Roman times: "A noble Roman was the Root, from which Montgomeries came, Who brought his legions from the war, and settled the same. Upon a hill twixt Rome and Spain. Gomericus by name; From which he and his offspring do their sire name still retain.""
Montgomery Family Crest and History
http://www.houseofnames.com/montgomery-family-crest

FTDNA Montgomery DNA Results (J2)
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Montgomery/default.aspx?section=yresults

RHAS
23-10-13, 02:47
Greco-Roman spheres of influence and Haplogroup J2.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/1074318_623171751074317_1544350417_o.jpg
Left: The geographic space over which Classical Greek and Latin served as a lingua franca in antiquity. Right: Y-DNA Haplogroup Frequency map of J2-M172.

"Romans surely helped spread haplogroup J2 across its borders, judging from the distribution of J2 within Europe (frequency over 5%) wich bears an uncanny resemblance to the borders of the Roman Empire."
Eupedia.com, 2013.

"The propagation of J2b and E V-13 correspond roughly to the ancient Greek and Roman spheres of influence."
Eupedia.com, 2013.

"The ancient Greeks and Phoenicians were the main driving forces behind the spread of J2 around the western and southern Mediterranian"
Eupedia.com, 2013.

"Di Giacomo stressed the role of post-Neolithic migratory phenomenon, specifically that of the Ancient Greeks, as also being important in the dispersal of haplogroup J-M172."
Wikipedia.org - Haplogroup J2-M172, 2013.

RHAS
23-10-13, 03:33
Haplogroup J2 & Romans.

"The Minoans and Ancient Greeks very likely played an early role in the frequency and high diversity of L24(M530) haplotypes we see today in Apulia, Italy as found by Grugni et al (2012). Later the Roman armies and auxiliaries played a role. Possibly even the Carthaginians under Hannibal (Battle of Cannae) played a role. Later still the Byzantine Empire, over a period of about 1000 years, very likely played a role in the movement of L24(M530) Y-chromosomes."
J2 L24 Blogspot - More Comments on Grugni et al (2012).
http://the-j2-l24-clade.blogspot.nl/

"The Byzantine Empire was the predominantly Greek-speaking continuation of the Roman Empire during Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages. Its capital city was Constantinople (modern-day Istanbul), originally known as Byzantium. Initially the eastern half of the Roman Empire (often called the Eastern Roman Empire in this context), it survived the 5th century fragmentation and collapse of the Western Roman Empire and continued to thrive, existing for an additional thousand years until it fell to the Ottoman Turks in 1453. During most of its existence, the empire was the most powerful economic, cultural, and military force in Europe. Both "Byzantine Empire" and "Eastern Roman Empire" are historiographical terms applied in later centuries; its citizens continued to refer to their empire as the Roman Empire (Ancient Greek: Βασιλεία Ῥωμαίων, tr. Basileia Rhōmaiōn; Latin: Imperium Romanum), and Romania (Ῥωμανία)."
Byzantine Empire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/Justinian555AD.png

LeBrok
23-10-13, 04:58
Greco-Roman spheres of influence and Haplogroup J2.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/1074318_623171751074317_1544350417_o.jpg
Now it is a Greco-Roman thing. Keep expanding and keep going back in time. You're on good track now.

RHAS
25-10-13, 03:13
Ancient Roman Imperium.

"Y-DNA haplogroups in Turkey. Simplified information on Y-DNA haplogroups. Less than 10 % of population is related to Turkic tribes of Central Asia. As high as 90% of population in Turkey is left over grand children of Ancient Roman Imperium."
Youtube - Y-DNA haplogroups in Turkey.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxe-Hq0O9kg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/270883_531117423613084_1527967865_n.jpg

Sile
25-10-13, 09:37
Greco-Roman spheres of influence and Haplogroup J2.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/1074318_623171751074317_1544350417_o.jpg

"Romans surely helped spread haplogroup J2 across its borders, judging from the distribution of J2 within Europe (frequency over 5%) wich bears an uncanny resemblance to the borders of the Roman Empire."
Eupedia.com, 2013.

"The propagation of J2b and E V-13 correspond roughly to the ancient Greek and Roman spheres of influence."
Eupedia.com, 2013.

"The ancient Greeks and Phoenicians were the main driving forces behind the spread of J2 around the western and southern Mediterranian"
Eupedia.com, 2013.

"Di Giacomo stressed the role of post-Neolithic migratory phenomenon, specifically that of the Ancient Greeks, as also being important in the dispersal of haplogroup J-M172."
Wikipedia.org - Haplogroup J2-M172, 2013.

can you check your language map as I want to know what about greek influence in pontic black sea area ( eastern side) and the italian south?

RHAS
25-10-13, 13:29
can you check your language map as I want to know what about greek influence in pontic black sea area ( eastern side) and the italian south?

This map actually came from a website called, Center of Hellenic Studies from Harvard University.
It was featured in an article with the name, Greek, Latin and a Global Dialogue among Civilizations.
http://chs.harvard.edu/wa/pageR?tn=ArticleWrapper&bdc=12&mn=4827

Here is another image of the same thing:

Greco-Roman Spheres of Influence:

http://www.ict.griffith.edu.au/wiseman/Roman/GrecoRoman.gif

adamo
25-10-13, 21:13
I like it how J2b frequencies evidently peak in Greece, Albania and north-central Italy and near India; evidently showing a dispersal and origin pattern from the southern Balkans. J-M172 (xM102) on the other hand is associated with the spread of anatolians across the Mediterranean world. It peaks in the northern Iraq region but is heavily felt in nearby parts of turkey,Iran,Armenia,Georgia,Azerbaijan, Lebanon etc. in Europe it is most present in the southeast among Greeks and Italians in particular. (Cretans and Italians have the highest European levels, including Sicilians). J-M67 is most found among Caucasus Georgians,Turks,Armenians. In Europe it is clearly most present among Italians. J-M92, downstream of M67 is most present among men sampled in western turkey. It too is most present among italian (south) men.

Eldritch
25-10-13, 21:49
I like it how J2b frequencies evidently peak in Greece, Albania and north-central Italy and near India; evidently showing a dispersal and origin pattern from the southern Balkans. J-M172 (xM102) on the other hand is associated with the spread of anatolians across the Mediterranean world. It peaks in the northern Iraq region but is heavily felt in nearby parts of turkey,Iran,Armenia,Georgia,Azerbaijan, Lebanon etc. in Europe it is most present in the southeast among Greeks and Italians in particular. (Cretans and Italians have the highest European levels, including Sicilians). J-M67 is most found among Caucasus Georgians,Turks,Armenians. In Europe it is clearly most present among Italians. J-M92, downstream of M67 is most present among men sampled in western turkey. It too is most present among italian (south) men.
J2b according to some is linked to Alexander troops hence the presence in India.

adamo
25-10-13, 21:54
J2b maxes out at 14% of Albanian men. It's found in 10% of north-central Italians, 8% of Pakistan's Hunza people (hence your link), also found in 6.5% of Greeks, 6% of Nepal's Tharu people, 6% of Croatians, and in 6% of balkarian lineages.

adamo
25-10-13, 21:55
Seems linked to the Balkans spread.

adamo
25-10-13, 21:58
J-M67 on the other hand maxes out in 13% of Georgian men. It's also found in 10% of north-central Italians, 8% of Albanian Greek community members from Calabria, 6% of balkarians, 5% of Ashkenazi Jews, 4.5% of Greeks, 4.5% of Iraqis etc.

adamo
25-10-13, 22:01
J-M92 maxes out in 7% of Apulians, also found in 6.5% of Calabrian Albanians, 5% of Ashkenazi Jews, 4.5% of Turks from Konya, 4% of Turks from Istanbul, less than 3% of Greeks etc.

adamo
25-10-13, 22:11
Of the 10-20% of Moroccan Arabs/Berbers that are hg J virtually all of it is J1. Same for the 35% of Algerians and Tunisians that are J, it is all j1. All of the 35% of Amhara males from Ethiopia that tested positive for J are J1. Ethiopia's Oromo people on the other hand have only 3-4% J (all J1). Of the 51% of Iraqis that are J, 22% are J2 and 29% are J1. About 38% of Lebanese males belong to J, 27% are J2 and 11% are J1. Muslim Kurds are about 40% J; 10% J1 and 30% J2. Palestinians are 55% J; only about 15-17% is J2 and the other nearly 40% is J1. Bedouins of the Arabian peninsula are 65% J: 62% is J1. Ashkenazi Jews are 38% J: 23% is J2. Istanbul Turks have 25% J; 20% is J2 and Konya Turks had 31% J of which all is J2; Georgians have 33% J; 27% is J2.

RHAS
25-10-13, 22:45
Note! : Eupedia forum rule nr. 4. STAY ON TOPIC

"Avoid posting messages that are out of context or irrelevant to a topic. While we encourage your participation, such posts will either be moved to another forum or deleted in order to ensure a thread`s consistency. If you do want to write a post that is to off topic you can always start a new thread."

Topic = Haplogroup J2, Romans, Christianity and Viticulture. (And the relationship between them, ..... so no unsourced summaries of frequencies spread out over several posts that have no relation to the topic !)

RHAS
25-10-13, 23:00
Haplogroup J2 and Romans.

"Het onderzoek wees uit, dat het DNA profiel van de familie Lemmens uit de Sambeecksen Hoeck overeenkomt met Haplogroep J2. Deze Haplogroep J2 werd waargenomen bij enkele families (o.a. ook de familie van Kuppeveld) in en rond het Land van Cuijk. De oorsprong van Haplogroep J2 is het Midden Oosten. De onderzoekers stelden vast, dat de familie Lemmens vermoedelijk afstamt van de Romeinen die zich in het begin van de jaartelling ophielden in de Lage Landen, in het bijzonder in het Land van Cuijk en omstreken van Nijmegen."
Brabants Historisch Informatie Centrum - De herkomst van de familie Lemmens. (Dutch)
http://www.bhic.nl/site/popup.php?id=12872

"Een manlijke deelnemer van deze genealogie behoort tot de haplogroep J2a. Een Haplogroep die veel voorkomt in het Noord-Oostelijk deel van Noord-Brabant, vermoedelijk aldaar gekomen via de Romeinse nederzetting te Nijmegen."
Piet Verdonk Homepage - Genetische Genealogisch Onderzoek (DNA). (Dutch)
http://verdonk.home.xs4all.nl/DNA_Verbinding_stb_3.htm

"My paternal ancestors were mostly farmworkers or self-employed craftsmen of no great social standing. I can trace my line back to the 18th century (confirmed) and as far back as the late 1500s (conjectural). Our Y-DNA Haplogroup of J-M205 (J2b1, old J2b1b) would be considered, quite unambiguously, a potential “Roman Ancestry” DNA signature, being connected in earlier times to the Greek and Thracian Settlements in the Mediterranean basin. As a matter of fact, when confronted with the J2 haplotype by one of his British customers, even Dr. Bryan Sykes of Oxford Ancestors eventually suggested a Roman origin."
K. Pople, Pople Family Association.
http://poplefa.carbonmade.com/projects/4638348

RHAS
25-10-13, 23:31
Haplogroup J2 and Romans.

"The very name "Van Santen" means "from" or "of" Santen. The only Santen found (now known as "Xanten") is an ancient walled German town with a strong Roman history, at one time strategically located on the Rhine river (the river has since altered course somewhat). My genealogy is well-documented to the early 1500's from where my earliest known ancestor had settled by the 16th Century, near the mouth of the same Rhine river, and the furthest west one could have gone short of crossing the channel to England."
Van Santen DNA Project (Haplogroup J2).
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/van-santen/ (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/van-santen/)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjhDQu1YajM

RHAS
26-10-13, 00:23
Haplogroup J2 and Romans.

"Nog een aardigheidje voor Oost-Brabant: daar is een relatieve concentratie van haplogroep J gevonden. Volgens genetisch genealogen zijn die mensen waarschijnlijk nazaten van de oude Romeinen, gelegerd in Noviomagus (Nijmegen) of rond Locus Paludosus (De Peel)."
Eindhovens Dagblad - Veel DNA komt uit Spanje en Scandinavië. (Dutch)
http://www.ed.nl/regio/4449996/Veel-...candinavie.ece

Translated: One remarkable fact about this research is the concentration of J(2) found in the province of North Brabant, Genetic Genealogist believe these people are decended from Roman Soldiers stationed in Noviomagus (City of Nijmegen) and Locus Paludosis (De Peel)"

https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/560813_624791310912361_1467710557_n.jpg

Noviomagus (Nijmegen).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_1COdzfYOk

"Ulpia Noviomagus Batavorum is de naam van Nijmegen in de laat-Romeinse tijd; het voorvoegsel Ulpia verwijst naar keizer Marcus Ulpius Traianus hetgeen het mogelijk maakt de naam te dateren op 104 n.C. Voorheen stond de plaats bekend onder de naam Oppidum Batavorum. Of Batavodurum (versterkte stad van de Bataven) inderdaad dezelfde nederzetting aanduidt, is niet zeker."
Ulpia Noviomagus Batavorum (Dutch)
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulpia_Noviomagus_Batavorum

RHAS
26-10-13, 10:13
Locus Paludosis (De Peel)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJmNabYM2WI

This documentary explores not only the Roman helmet itself, but also the stories told about it over the past 100 years. How did a soldier's golden helmet end up in the marsh? Who was the mysterious knight of De Peel? And did the peat-cutters find the entire hoard of treasure? Over the past hundred years all these questions have received many different answers, some based on the facts and some on fiction. The helmet has stirred many people's imaginations. It was a magnificent find, one of the leading twentieth-century archaeological discoveries in the Netherlands. The gold of the helmet was analysed and showed to be comming from Roman workshops in Constantinople during the age of Christian Roman emperor Constantine.

RHAS
26-10-13, 10:22
Haplogroup J2(b2) and Romans.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1412764_628020043922821_2086965139_o.jpg

The small hotspot in North West Europe on the left in the J2b2 map seems to be situated around the now French town of Bologne-Sur-Mer, in Roman times known as Gesoriacum, the port Portus Itius was believed to be situated there. The bigger hotspot on the right seems to have its center between the river Meuse and the Rhine. This area was heavily Romanized with dozens of fortresses and/or towns (many are not shown on this map), most notably the Dutch city of Nijmegen (In Roman times called Noviomagus), the German city of Koln in Roman times know as Colonia Agrippina (which was the largest Roman city north of the Alps), the Belgian town of Tongeren in Roman times called Atuatuca, the modern German city of Xanten with its fortress Castra Vetera and the modern German City of Neuss in Roman times called Novaesium. The last 2 seems to be right in the center of the J2b2 Hotspot.

J2a members with Xanten derived surnames like Santen are also reported in these areas. While most agree that the name of the city is derived from an executed Roman soldier from the Theban legion who later became a saint, there are those who connect its name to the river god Scamandros/Xanthos who dwelled near the river Scamander in the vicinity of Troy. There is also a river named Xanthus in Anatolia.

All major Roman settlements north of Mainz (Britain excluded) are located in the 2 J2b2 areas. Many Roman legions were stationed in this area over the years, for instance; Legio V Alaudae, Legio XX Valeria Victrix, Legio X Gemina, Legio IV Macedonica and Ala I Thracum an auxiliary unit with Thracian Horsemen. It is known that the Romans used the Balkans as a major recruiting area for legionnaires and there are artifacts known that suggest some of these legionairs settled in the Rhineland after their military service was completed. Interesting also are the references to Troy in this region which include; The Trojan heritage claimed by the Dukes of Kleve, The Roman history writer Tacitus who tells of Greek inscriptions at the fortress of Asciburgium connected to Odysseus (just like the Portuguese city Lisbon), and the Frankish Trojan origin myth regarding the Sicambri tribe.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/704363_473217516068948_508554809_o.jpg

"De R1b-Nederlanders zijn waarschijnlijk vanuit het Iberisch schiereiland (Spanje/Portugal) in ons land terechtgekomen, terwijl haplogroep I Scandinavisch (Noormannen of Friezen?) bloed in de aderen heeft. Nog een aardigheidje voor Oost-Brabant: daar is een relatieve concentratie van haplogroep J gevonden. Volgens genetisch genealogen zijn die mensen waarschijnlijk nazaten van de oude Romeinen, gelegerd in Noviomagus (Nijmegen) of rond Locus Paludosus (De Peel)."
Artikel/Boekrecensie "Zonen van Adam in Nederland", Eindhovens Dagblad dinsdag 03 februari 2009.

"R1b3 komt vooral voor op de zandgronden in het binnenland en I aan de kust. Het voorkomen van J houdt mogelijk verband met de Romeinse tijd. Zij komen m.n. voor in Noord-Oost Brabant, waar het Romeinse leger nog lang aanwezig is geweest. Wellicht dat ook het voorkomen van de haplogroepen G en E hiermee verband houden."
Project Genetische Genealogie 2008, Website Nederlandse Genealogische Vereniging 2011.

"„Ceterum et Ulixen quidam opinantur longo illo et fabuloso errore in hunc Oceanum delatum adisse Germaniae terras, Asciburgiumque, quod in ripa Rheni situm hodieque incolitur, ab illo constitutum nominatumque; aram quin etiam Ulixi consecratam, adiecto Laertae patris nomine, eodem loco olim repertam, monumentaque et tumulos quosdam Graecis litteris inscriptos in confinio Germaniae Raetiaeque adhuc extare.“
Tacitus, Germania.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niederrheinischer_Trojamythos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanten
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limes
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skamandros

------------------------------

https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1395182_628104387247720_1078771643_n.jpg

Ancient Tartessos was an old harbor city/trading post mentioned first in Greek sources from about the middle of the first millennium BC. Greeks and Phoenicians competed to gain influence in the Tartessos region. The area was rich in metals. A Tartessian king with the name Arganthonios is known to have invited a Greek group of Phocaeans (close to Troy, Xanthus and Phrygia) to settle in his city. He also gave them large amounts of silver to pay for defensive measures for the Phocaeans homeland in Asia Minor. Greek trading posts are believed to have existed in this region, like Portus Menesthei which surprisingly enough is linked to a Trojan myth regarding the settlement of the Trojan king Menestheus in Iberia. Lisbon on the edge of the J2b2 heatmap area in Portugal has an origin myth connected to Odysseus, just like the Rhineland fortress of Asciburgium. Tartessos is believed by some to be the legendary city of Atlantis. It is in this region that the Pillars of Hercules are located and here Hercules/Heracles stole the Cattle of Geryon as one of his Ten Labours. It is the home of the Spanish cult of the Bull as much as Knossos, was the home of the Minoan cult of the Bull. Tartessos was probably destroyed by Cathagians, but recent finds also show a flood event at the time of its disappearance from history. The Conii or Cynetes are a group of people we find in the Algarve region in Roman times after the fall of Tartessos. While they lived in Celtic areas it is Herodotus who distinguished them from the Celts. The Conii were allied to Rome. Several Roman cities existed in the region. A retirement settlement for Roman legionnaires from the Legions V Alaudae (also present in Xanten, Rhineland and Dacia, Balkans) and X Gemina (also present in the Rhineland and the Balkans) was built at Merida (Emerito Augusta). Biblical archeologists often identify the place-name Tarshish in the Hebrew Bible with Tartessos, though others connect it to Tarsus in Anatolia (see Anatolia/Asia Minor Cluster) or other places as far as India. (See entry for Jonah in the Jewish Encyclopedia.) Tarshish, like Tartessos, is associated with extensive mineral wealth (Iberian Pyrite Belt)." While the origins of the Tartessians remains unknown, it is known they were in contact with ancient Greeks (Phocaeans) who even seem to have settled in the region, based on that fact it seems possible for the J2b2`s in the Portugal region to have Greek ancestry. Another origin possibility for the J2b2s in this region would be the settlement of Roman legionnaires with Thracian, Macedonian or Greek ancestry, from the same stock that would populate the Rhineland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartessian_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lissabon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerita_Augusta
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynetes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocaea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odysseus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arganthonios
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legio_V_Alaudae
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legio_X_Gemina

-------------------------------------------------

https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/996635_628107213914104_1173937926_n.jpg

The Northern hotspot in Anatolia on the J2b2 heatmap corresponds to the territory of the ancient Bithynians and Phrygians. The Bithynians are immigrants to Asia Minor from the Balkans, their original homeland is situated in Thrace were they were called the Thyni. Phrygians (ca. 1200 - 700 BC) are also ancient immigrants to Anatolia from the Balkans (Macedonia) were they were originally known as the Bryges. The Phrygians were allied to Troy and participated in the Trojan wars. Phrygians are also known for the Gordian Knot legend which together with their Macedonian ancestry links them to Alexander the Great and for their Phrygian Cap which would be the hat the god Mithras (popular with Roman Legionnaires) is wearing. Herodotus claims the Phrygians founded the Armenian Nation. Both areas were also Roman provinces. The origin history of the people/region in the south of Asia Minor is slightly harder to connect directly to the Balkans/Greece but it is situated roughly were we find the Hellenized Armenian Seleucid Kingdom(s) of Commagene and Sophene, and on a side note the ancient site of Gobekli Tepe wich by some is believed to be the original garden of Eden. The Commagene dynasty claimed ties with Alexander the Great (Macedonia) and Antiochus I Theos of Commagene was allied to the Roman general Pompey. Anatolia in general is also the place where we find the city of Troy, the river Xanthus and the city of Tarsus. Anatolia was part of the Roman empire for about 15 centuries. (Roman Empire + Byzantium) While it’s possible that the J2b2`s found in Anatolia, immigrated to Asia minor as Roman Soldiers (recruited from Thrace and/or Macedon) or have some form of Greek heritage, they seem to be especially linked to Bithynians and Phrygians whose origins are documented by Greek historians like Herodotus to be situated in the Balkans (Macedonia & Thrace).

"Several authors have proposed that the Indo-European language presently spoken by Armenians arose during the Bronze Age, when Indo-European speaking tribes from the Balkans and Greece invaded Anatolia and Transcaucasia, leading to the subsequent spread of their culture and language. In this study, we have detected a number of lineages that are prominent in the Balkans (I2*, I2b*, J2b1 and J2b2) at low levels throughout Ararat Valley, Gardman and Lake Van, the latter of which also contains haplogroups commonly associated with Bronze Age Greece (ie, J2a8-M319 (4.9%), and E1b1b1-M78 and its sublineages (3.9%)). While this may suggest genetic input from early Greek or Phrygian tribes, it is also possible that these low levels of Balkan lineages arrived in Armenia at a later time, such as during one of the many incursions into the area during the reign of the Macedonian, Roman and Byzantine empires."
Neolithic patrilineal signals indicate that the Armenian plateau was repopulated by agriculturalists.
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v20/n3/full/ejhg2011192a.html

"I-P37 and J-M12 are dated to 1,100BC and 1,200BC, at around the time that e.g. the Phrygians from the Balkans are believed to have migrated to Asia Minor. I-P37 and J-M12 reach their maxima in areas north of Greece where the Phrygians are said to have originated."
How Y-STR variance accumulates: a comment on Zhivotovsky, Underhill and Feldman (2006)
http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2008/07/how-y-str-variance-accumulates-comment.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bithynia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seleucid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commagene
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophene
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scamander
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarsus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthus

adamo
30-10-13, 05:58
1 And in those days, in the ninety-first year of the life of Abram, the children of Chittim made war with the children of Tubal, for when the Lord had scattered the sons of men upon the face of the earth, the children of Chittim went and embodied themselves in the plain of Canopia, and they built themselves cities there and dwelt by the river Tibreu.
2 And the children of Tubal dwelt in Tuscanah, and their boundaries reached the river Tibreu, and the children of Tubal built a city in Tuscanan, and they called the name Sabinah, after the name of Sabinah son of Tubal their father, and they dwelt there unto this day.

adamo
30-10-13, 05:59
It would seem the SABINES were the sons of Georgian Tubal and the Samnites derive from them.

adamo
30-10-13, 06:02
Both the Sabines AND their derived Samnites seem to be Georgians from the Caucasus region and a nearby people I suspect of being Etruscan were the "Kittim". The Kittim were Cypriots of Assyrian stock. They trace back to Hittites and are either represented by Ionian or Achaean Greeks.

adamo
30-10-13, 06:03
The mediaeval rabbinic compilation Yosippon contains a detailed account of the Kittim. As the peoples spread out, it says, the Kittim camped in Campania and built a city called "Posomanga", while descendants of Tubal camped in neighboring Tuscany and built "Sabino", with the Tiber river as their frontier. However, they soon went to war following the rape of the Sabines by the Kittim, who are correlated to the Romans. This war was ended when the Kittim showed the descendants of Tubal their mutual progeny. They then built cities called Porto, Albano, and Aresah. Later, their territory is occupied by Agnias, King of Carthage, but the Kittim end up appointing Zepho, son of Eliphaz and grandson of Esau, as their king, with the title Janus Saturnus. The first king of Rome, Romulus, is made in this account to be a distant successor of this line. A shorter, more garbled version of this story is also found in the later Sefer haYashar.

adamo
30-10-13, 06:04
It seems that when the sons of Tubal arrived in central Italy they built the city of Sabino and are the Sabines. The Etruscans may be of similar stock .

adamo
30-10-13, 06:06
Wether the Umbrians were celts or not (right now I feel they are Danube region celts) we have debunked the Celtic Sabine and Samnites mystery; these people were NOT celts...now to figure out the aedui, Volscian,etc...

adamo
30-10-13, 08:34
This though contradicts the Osco-Umbrian-sabellian language theories but with this direct evidence it may not matter for the ethnic/genetic groups.

adamo
30-10-13, 08:35
All we know is there are Kittim (Cypriots) and proto-Georgians, that at one point or another settled central Italy and still some few men descend from me today.

adamo
30-10-13, 08:37
And this is without counting the Etruscans, who spoke a language most similar to proto-Armenian. So the Sabines descending from Tubal it is thus correct to associate them with Tibarrenoi and the Sannoi (Samnites) of the northeastern turkey/Georgia region.

adamo
30-10-13, 08:47
20% hg T in Sabine regions....and I thought the Cretans that settled Apulia or calabria's Greeks where "exotic" element, the Etruscans descendants of Lydia would have came from western turkey whereas the Sabines where legitimate Georgians from the Caucasus establishing their little kingdom in central Italy. Their apparent Piceni offshoots would move to centralMarche and the Samnites poured into southern Italy at low densities.

RHAS
31-10-13, 20:21
Aeneas and J-M92.

Just some funny myth in this J-M92 maps regard i just noticed. The red area in Anatolia is were Troy was situated. Aeneas and his family, when he fled Troy, eventually ended up in Cumae near Naples (the other red area in Italy) were he saw some priestes of Apollo. She told him his descendants would create the Roman Empire. (Romulus and Remus)

"In Greco-Roman mythology, Aeneas (/ɪˈniːəs/; Greek: Αἰνείας, Aineías, possibly derived from Greek αἰνή meaning "praise") was a Trojan hero, the son of the prince Anchises and the goddess Aphrodite. His father was the second cousin of King Priam of Troy, making Aeneas Priam's second cousin, once removed. He is a character in Greek mythology and is mentioned in Homer's Iliad, and receives full treatment in Roman mythology as the legendary founder of what would become Ancient Rome, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid."
Aeneas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas

"An earlier tradition that gave Romulus a distant ancestor in the semi-divine Trojan prince Aeneas was further embellished, and Romulus was made the direct ancestor of Rome's first Imperial dynasty. Possible historical bases for the broad mythological narrative remain unclear and disputed. The image of the she-wolf suckling the divinely fathered twins became an iconic representation of the city and its founding legend, making Romulus and Remus preeminent among the feral children of ancient mythography."
Romulus and Remus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus

Haplogroup J-M92

https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/539802_497512770306883_1591683737_n.jpg

Map Navigatio Troiani Aeneas

http://www.bergbook.com/images/17715-01.jpg

Map travels of Aeneas.

http://www.daviddarling.info/images/journeys_of_Aeneas.jpg

"The J2f-M67 clade is localized to Northwest Turkey. It is well known that during this period, Northwest Anatolia developed a complex society that engaged in widespread Aegean trade referred to as "Maritime Troia culture," involving both the western Anatolian mainland and several of the large islands in the eastern Aegean, Chios, Lemnos and Lesbos (Korfmann 1996)."
Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia.
http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Cinnioglu2004.pdf

"2.1. The Maritime Troy Culture.The coastline of the North Aegean and the costal regions of the Marmara Sea were determined as the area of distribution of the “Maritime Troy Culture”, which encompasses the first three settlement phases of Troy from c. 2920 to 2200 BC (KORFMANN 2006:4). In more general terms this is the period of the Early Bronze Age (EBA)"
http://tobias-lib.uni-tuebingen.de/v...ss_Guendem.pdf

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1264211_598415363549956_1173191371_o.jpg

adamo
31-10-13, 22:49
Whoever disliked my comment on the Sabines, you'll see that I was correct.

adamo
31-10-13, 22:50
The Samnites and Sabines merged with Umbrians and Oscans; these were all different people's fused with one another.

Sile
03-11-13, 20:30
hittites in europe 1800BC

http://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.co.at/2013/10/hurrian-artifacts-in-istanbul-break-new.html?m=1

one of their groups surely entered Europe and headed north

adamo
04-11-13, 12:13
I must say that is very interesting.

adamo
04-11-13, 12:15
I like how RHs has clearly linked a maximum high of J-M92 not too far from Troy and how then again it peaks in southern Italy.

adamo
04-11-13, 12:16
I also link how he has eternally linked the Tartessians with hg J2 and with either (probably) Greeks or maybe even the Phoenicians. A professional and E-X-C-E-L-L-E-N-T post.

RHAS
24-11-13, 17:05
Haplogroup J2(b2) and Romans.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1412764_628020043922821_2086965139_o.jpg

The small hotspot in North West Europe on the left in the J2b2 map seems to be situated around the now French town of Bologne-Sur-Mer, in Roman times known as Gesoriacum, the port Portus Itius was believed to be situated there. The bigger hotspot on the right seems to have its center between the river Meuse and the Rhine. This area was heavily Romanized with dozens of fortresses and/or towns (many are not shown on this map), most notably the Dutch city of Nijmegen (In Roman times called Noviomagus), the German city of Koln in Roman times know as Colonia Agrippina (which was the largest Roman city north of the Alps), the Belgian town of Tongeren in Roman times called Atuatuca, the modern German city of Xanten with its fortress Castra Vetera and the modern German City of Neuss in Roman times called Novaesium. The last 2 seems to be right in the center of the J2b2 Hotspot.

J2a members with Xanten derived surnames like Santen are also reported in these areas. While most agree that the name of the city is derived from an executed Roman soldier from the Theban legion who later became a saint, there are those who connect its name to the river god Scamandros/Xanthos who dwelled near the river Scamander in the vicinity of Troy. There is also a river named Xanthus in Anatolia.

All major Roman settlements north of Mainz (Britain excluded) are located in the 2 J2b2 areas. Many Roman legions were stationed in this area over the years, for instance; Legio V Alaudae, Legio XX Valeria Victrix, Legio X Gemina, Legio IV Macedonica and Ala I Thracum an auxiliary unit with Thracian Horsemen. It is known that the Romans used the Balkans as a major recruiting area for legionnaires and there are artifacts known that suggest some of these legionairs settled in the Rhineland after their military service was completed. Interesting also are the references to Troy in this region which include; The Trojan heritage claimed by the Dukes of Kleve, The Roman history writer Tacitus who tells of Greek inscriptions at the fortress of Asciburgium connected to Odysseus (just like the Portuguese city Lisbon), and the Frankish Trojan origin myth regarding the Sicambri tribe.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/704363_473217516068948_508554809_o.jpg

"De R1b-Nederlanders zijn waarschijnlijk vanuit het Iberisch schiereiland (Spanje/Portugal) in ons land terechtgekomen, terwijl haplogroep I Scandinavisch (Noormannen of Friezen?) bloed in de aderen heeft. Nog een aardigheidje voor Oost-Brabant: daar is een relatieve concentratie van haplogroep J gevonden. Volgens genetisch genealogen zijn die mensen waarschijnlijk nazaten van de oude Romeinen, gelegerd in Noviomagus (Nijmegen) of rond Locus Paludosus (De Peel)."
Artikel/Boekrecensie "Zonen van Adam in Nederland", Eindhovens Dagblad dinsdag 03 februari 2009.

"R1b3 komt vooral voor op de zandgronden in het binnenland en I aan de kust. Het voorkomen van J houdt mogelijk verband met de Romeinse tijd. Zij komen m.n. voor in Noord-Oost Brabant, waar het Romeinse leger nog lang aanwezig is geweest. Wellicht dat ook het voorkomen van de haplogroepen G en E hiermee verband houden."
Project Genetische Genealogie 2008, Website Nederlandse Genealogische Vereniging 2011.

"„Ceterum et Ulixen quidam opinantur longo illo et fabuloso errore in hunc Oceanum delatum adisse Germaniae terras, Asciburgiumque, quod in ripa Rheni situm hodieque incolitur, ab illo constitutum nominatumque; aram quin etiam Ulixi consecratam, adiecto Laertae patris nomine, eodem loco olim repertam, monumentaque et tumulos quosdam Graecis litteris inscriptos in confinio Germaniae Raetiaeque adhuc extare.“
Tacitus, Germania.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niederrheinischer_Trojamythos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanten
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limes
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skamandros



"J2b2a-L283 was discovered by Family Tree DNA through its "Walk Through The Y" program, and is predominantly Middle-Eastern, Mediterranean and European. The M12/M241 frequency peak in the Balkan Peninsula and Italy observed by Semino et al. [35] and Cruciani et al. [45], may instead belong to sub-clade L283. A recent Z631 sub-branch expansion from east to west through the heart of Europe to the UK along with presence in Italy and Spain might be associated with Roman expansion using mercenaries and slaves acquired in the Balkans."
Generation of high-resolution a priori Y-chromosome phylogenies using "next-generation" sequencing data.
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2013/11/22/000802.1.full.pdf

RHAS
06-02-14, 13:21
Haplogroup J2 and Romans (Etruscans)

"Haplogroup J2: (Greco-Anatolian) Bronze Age immigrants – this haplogroup is reasonably common in southern Europe; it may be associated with the Etruscans, the Minoans and the Phoenicians. Its presence across European populations is theorised to have come about via Roman colonisation (including the stationing of Roman troops all over the empire). About 20% of Romans belonged to haplogroup J (probably via Etruscan and Greek ancestors). This haplogroup is apparently associated with bull worship – which was probably not common among early Indo-Europeans. Haplogroup J2 is most common in Turkey and surrounding regions."
Y-DNA Haplogroups of Europe.
http://romanpagan.blogspot.nl/2013/08/y-dna-haplogroups-of-europe.html

johnnycanuck
03-04-14, 06:26
Northern Italian from am area of a couple roman named towns- now living in canada. My Y chromosone came back with haplogroup R-L150, when researching the clusters of 1000+ or more, each of those areas had roman garrisons, roughly the same time period, throughout europe- only a few places in Italy, morocco, middle east and central europe, and a few surprising areas but again areas where romans were known to have had an outpost. A few anomalies can be explained by later migration. Also a surprise is that no clusters show up in present day Turkey, except for around Van. The question is what time frame do these haplogroups and subgroups cover? Or are we in early days of DNA research?

LeBrok
03-04-14, 06:55
Northern Italian from am area of a couple roman named towns- now living in canada. My Y chromosone came back with haplogroup R-L150, when researching the clusters of 1000+ or more, each of those areas had roman garrisons, roughly the same time period, throughout europe- only a few places in Italy, morocco, middle east and central europe, and a few surprising areas but again areas where romans were known to have had an outpost. A few anomalies can be explained by later migration. Also a surprise is that no clusters show up in present day Turkey, except for around Van. The question is what time frame do these haplogroups and subgroups cover? Or are we in early days of DNA research?
Exactly, early days of DNA research.

RHAS
03-04-14, 09:47
Haplogroup J2 and Romans.

"Based on the results from the Benelux Y-DNA Project it can be inferred that the Frank`s main paternal lineage was haplogroup R1b-U106, and that they belong overwhemingly the Z381 subclade. They also possesed other typical Germanic lineages like I1, I2a2a and R1a (L664 and Z283 subclades), although their ratio to R1b-U106 would have been 1:2, 1:6 and 1:7 respectivly. Like modern Scandinavians, the Franks also probably carried a substantial amount of R1b-P312 lineages, including the l21, U152 and DF27 subclades, as well as a minority of E-V13, G2a3b1 and J2. Since all these lineages are also typical of popultion of Celtic or Italic (including Roman) descent, is not clear at present what proportion of these lineages in the Benelux can be attributed to the Gauls and the Romans, as opposed to the Franks."
Eupedia.com - A brief history of the Franks.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/franki...n_europe.shtml (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/frankish_influence_modern_europe.shtml)

"The Frankish mythology that has survived in primary sources is comparable to that of the Aeneas and Romulus myths take in Roman mythology, but altered to suit Germanic tastes. Like many Germanic peoples, the Franks told a founding myth story to explain their connection with peoples of classical history. In the case of the Franks, these peoples were the Sicambri and the Trojans."
Wikipedia - Frankish Mythology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankish_mythology

"Between 600 BCE and 300 BCE the Greeks founded colonies along the Mediterranean coast of France, founding Agde, Mareille, Hyeres and Nice. The ancient Greeks would have brought chiefly haplogroups E1b1b and J2 with them, with also a minority of G2a, J1, R1b-L23 and T. Then came the Romans, who stayed for 500 years in Gaul. The Romans are thought have belonged essentially to R1b-U152, with substantial minorities of E1b1b (probably more E-M123), G2a (especially G2a3b1a), J1, J2 (both J2a and J2b2), and T."
Eupedia.com - Ancient Ancestry Project: Benelux & France.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/benelu..._project.shtml (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/benelux_france_dna_project.shtml)

RHAS
03-04-14, 10:52
Viticulture. (Mesopotamians, Iranians, Egypt, Greeks, Phoenicians, Phrygians, Romans. etc.)

https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/1236463_10151847273610944_1931030569_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1.0-9/1237589_10151847273645944_1598243303_n.jpg


"Wine making spread to Crete during the Minoan period and then later to Italy with the Etruscans and to Iberia with the Phoenicians. It was an integral component of the economy and social culture of the proto-greek civilizations and the phoenicians who both went on to settle other mediterranean coastal regions. And tracing the spread of Viticulture from its origins to its spread before the Roman period, we can see te highest levels of Haplogroup J2 today correlate with the geographical centres of all these civilizations. While viticulture may not represent the first wave of M172 migrants to Europe, M172 certainly played a strong role in bringing Viticulture to Europe with such civilizations as the Minoans, Greeks and Phoenicians."
M172 Blog - Correlations in the spread of Viticulture and Haplogroup J2, 2008.
http://m172.blogspot.nl/2008/10/corr...ticulture.html

(http://m172.blogspot.nl/2008/10/corr...ticulture.html)https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/602075_496308773760616_1899390364_n.jpg

RHAS
03-04-14, 14:58
"Romans surely helped spread haplogroup J2 across its borders, judging from the distribution of J2 within Europe (frequency over 5%) wich bears an uncanny resemblance to the borders of the Roman Empire."
Eupedia.com, 2013.

-----------------------------------------

J2-M172 Y-DNA European Countries Population Estimate Top 25 + Civilisations.
(Top 25 of all countries included in this research & major civilisations/tribes they were part of.)

1. Turkey/Anatolia (8.966.912) - (Ancient Greece*, Thrace, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire)
2. Italy (5.513.513) - (Ancient Greece*, Etruscan, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Holy Roman Empire)
3. France (2.198.498) - (Ancient Greece*, Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Holy Roman Empire)
4. Russia (2.137.766) - (Ancient Greece*, Sarmatia, Scythia, Russian Empire)
5. Germany (1.829.382) - (Germania, Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Holy Roman Empire)
6. Ukraine (1.457.757) - (Ancient Greece*, Sarmatia, Scythia)
7. Romania (1.420.153) - (Ancient Greece*, Thrace, Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire)
8. Spain (1.417.960) - (Ancient Greece*, Phoenician, Roman Empire, Gothic Kingdom, Moors, Spanish Empire)
9. Greece (1.238.300) - (Ancient Greece*, Greek Seleucid Empire*, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman)
10. England (892.500) - (Roman Empire, British Empire)
11. Bulgaria (545.440) - (Ancient Greece*, Thrace, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire)
12. Portugal (512.119) - (Ancient Greece*, Phoenician, Roman Empire)
13. Netherlands (501.919) - (Germania, Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Holy Roman Empire)
14. Austria (493.185) - (Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Holy Roman Empire, Austria- Hungarian Empire)
15. Poland (480.192) - (Sarmatia, Polish Kingdom, Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Vlach & German Settlers)
16. Hungary (348.546) - (Roman Empire, Kingdom of Hungary, Austria- Hungarian Empire)
17. Czech Republic (305.319) - (Roman Empire, Holy Roman Empire)
18. Albania (292.779) - (Ancient Greece*, Illyria, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire)
19. Switserland (240.000) - (Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Holy Roman Empire)
20. Serbia (236.490) - (Ancient Greece*, Roman Empire, Austria- Hungarian Empire, Ottoman Empire)
21. Cyprus (203.378) - (Ancient Greece*, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire)
22. Sweden (143.101) - (Germanic, Nordic, Viking, Kingdom of Sweden, Swedish Empire)
23. Macedonia (FYROM) (124.942) - (Ancient Greece*, Macedon, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire)
24. Bosnia-Herzegovina (116.379) - (Illyria, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire)
25. Slovakia (108.906) - (Scytho-Thracian, Celts, Roman Empire, Kingdom of Hungary)

J2-M172 Y-DNA Countries Of All Regions Population Estimate Top 25 + Civilisations.
(Top 25 of all countries included in this research & major civilisations/tribes they were part of.)

1. Turkey/Anatolia (8.966.912) - (Ancient Greece*, Thrace, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire)
2. Italy (5.513.513) - (Ancient Greece*, Etruscan, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Holy Roman Empire)
3. Egypt (4.510.000) - (Ancient Egypt, Greek Ptolemaic Kingdom*, Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire)
4. Iran (4.508.980) - (Parthian Empire, Greek Seleucid Empire*, Greco-Bactrian Kingdom*, Persian Empire)
5. Iraq (3.035.099) - (Mesopotamia, Greek Seleucid Empire*, Roman Empire, Persian Empire, Ottoman Empire)
6. France (2.198.498) - (Ancient Greece*, Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Holy Roman Empire)
7. Russia (2.137.766) - (Ancient Greece*, Sarmatia, Scythia, Russian Empire)
8. Syria (1.915.113) - (Mesopotamia, Phoenician, Greek Seleucid Empire*, Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire)
9. Germany (1.829.382) - (Germania, Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Holy Roman Empire)
10. Ukraine (1.457.757) - (Ancient Greece*, Sarmatia, Scythia)
11. Romania (1.420.153) - (Ancient Greece*, Thrace, Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire)
12. Spain (1.417.960) - (Ancient Greece*, Phoenician, Roman Empire, Gothic Kingdom, Moors, Spanish Empire)
13. Azerbaijan (1.397.663) - (Scythia, Greek Seleucid Empire*, Roman Empire, Persian Empire)
14. Greece (1.238.300) - (Ancient Greece*, Greek Seleucid Empire*, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman)
15. England (892.500) - (Celtic, Roman Empire, British Empire)
16. Georgia (603.342) - (Ancient Greece*, Roman Empire)
17. Lebanon (549.120) - (Phoenician, Persian Empire, Greek Seleucid Empire*, Roman Empire, Ottoman)
18. Bulgaria (545.440) - (Ancient Greece*, Thrace, Roman Empire, Byzantium, Ottoman Empire)
19. Portugal (512.119) - (Ancient Greece*, Phoenician, Roman Empire)
20. Netherlands (501.919) - (Germania, Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Holy Roman Empire)
21. Austria (493.185) - (Roman Empire, Frankish Empire, Holy Roman Empire)
22. Morocco (489.666) - (Phoenician, Roman Empire)
23. Poland (480.192) - (Sarmatia, Polish Kingdom, Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Vlach & German Settlers)
24. Jordan (423.038) - (Greek Seleucid Empire*, Roman Empire, Persian Empire, Ottoman Empire)
25. Armenia (358.842) - (Kingdom of Armenia, Roman Empire, Persian Empire. Ottoman Empire, Russian)

Taken from: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28986-J2-Population-Size-Estimates


https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t31.0-8/1926092_720050028053155_806363549_o.jpg

"Occurrence of J2-M172 Y-chromosomes in Tuscany has been related to the Etruscan heritage of the region."
Uniparental Markers of Contemporary Italian Population Reveals Details on Its Pre-Roman Heritage.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0050794

"DNA of men whose forebears probably were Etruscans show they weren't local, but migrated, study says. Genetic studies of Italians in Tuscany show that their forefathers, the ancient Etruscans, moved to Italy from what is now Turkey -- an origin that many archeologists have dismissed as unlikely. The Etruscans, who emerged about 1200 BC, reached their zenith in the 6th century BC, dominating Italy and the Mediterranean area until being assimilated into the Roman Republic about 200 BC. They provided many of the cultural underpinnings of Roman society. They were skilled metallurgists and masterful seafarers, but their origin has been a source of dispute for at least 2,500 years."
LA Times - Genetic tests: Italians were from Turkey
http://articles.latimes.com/2007/jun/18/science/sci-etruscans18

Hg J2-M172 & Roman Republic.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t1.0-9/1236259_591804834211009_98755787_n.jpg

Roman Empire: East & West.

http://fanack.com/uploads/pics/turkey_byzantine_map_318px.jpg

RHAS
03-04-14, 15:48
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t31.0-8/1926092_720050028053155_806363549_o.jpg

"DNA of men whose forebears probably were Etruscans show they weren't local, but migrated, study says. Genetic studies of Italians in Tuscany show that their forefathers, the ancient Etruscans, moved to Italy from what is now Turkey -- an origin that many archeologists have dismissed as unlikely. The Etruscans, who emerged about 1200 BC, reached their zenith in the 6th century BC, dominating Italy and the Mediterranean area until being assimilated into the Roman Republic about 200 BC. They provided many of the cultural underpinnings of Roman society. They were skilled metallurgists and masterful seafarers, but their origin has been a source of dispute for at least 2,500 years."
LA Times - Genetic tests: Italians were from Turkey
http://articles.latimes.com/2007/jun/18/science/sci-etruscans18

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh72/gundalilama/RomulusEtRemus.jpg

"An earlier tradition that gave Romulus a distant ancestor in the semi-divine Trojan prince Aeneas was further embellished, and Romulus was made the direct ancestor of Rome's first Imperial dynasty. Possible historical bases for the broad mythological narrative remain unclear and disputed. The image of the she-wolf suckling the divinely fathered twins became an iconic representation of the city and its founding legend, making Romulus and Remus preeminent among the feral children of ancient mythography."
Romulus and Remus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Aeneas'_Flight_from_Troy_by_Federico_Barocci.jpg
Aeneas Flight from Troy by Federico Barocci.

"In Greco-Roman mythology, Aeneas (/ɪˈniːəs/; Greek: Αἰνείας, Aineías, possibly derived from Greek αἰνή meaning "praise") was a Trojan hero, the son of the prince Anchises and the goddess Aphrodite. His father was the second cousin of King Priam of Troy, making Aeneas Priam's second cousin, once removed. He is a character in Greek mythology and is mentioned in Homer's Iliad, and receives full treatment in Roman mythology as the legendary founder of what would become Ancient Rome, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid."
Aeneas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas

http://www.bergbook.com/images/17715-01.jpg
Map Aeneae Troiani Navigatio

http://www.daviddarling.info/images/journeys_of_Aeneas.jpg
Travels of Aeneas.


"The J2f-M67 clade is localized to Northwest Turkey. It is well known that during this period, Northwest Anatolia developed a complex society that engaged in widespread Aegean trade referred to as "Maritime Troia culture," involving both the western Anatolian mainland and several of the large islands in the eastern Aegean, Chios, Lemnos and Lesbos (Korfmann 1996)."
Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia.
http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Cinnioglu2004.pdf

"2.1. The Maritime Troy Culture.The coastline of the North Aegean and the costal regions of the Marmara Sea were determined as the area of distribution of the “Maritime Troy Culture”, which encompasses the first three settlement phases of Troy from c. 2920 to 2200 BC (KORFMANN 2006:4). In more general terms this is the period of the Early Bronze Age (EBA)"
http://tobias-lib.uni-tuebingen.de/v...ss_Guendem.pdf

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1264211_598415363549956_1173191371_o.jpg

"J2a-M92 is a well-defined J2a-M67 sub-lineage, with a distribution restricted to Asia Minor, the Balkans and the north-eastern Mediterranean coasts. Frequency and variance maps make plausible an origin in north-western Turkey, where the highest variance is registered, and a subsequent migration to the Balkans and then to the Italian Peninsula."
Ancient Migratory Events in the Middle East: New Clues from the Y-Chromosome Variation of Modern Iranians.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...e-0041252-g002 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252#pone-0041252-g002)

https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/539802_497512770306883_1591683737_n.jpg

RHAS
04-04-14, 04:12
Haplogroup J and Romans.

"Y-DNA haplogroep. Vaak voorkomende haplogroepen in West-Europa. J. Typerend voor Zuid-Oost-Europa, meer bepaald Centraal en Zuid-Italië, Griekenland en Romenië. Ook teruggevonden in Frankrijk, Turkije en het Midden-Oosten. Kan in verband worden gebracht met de oude Grieken, de Romeinen en de Pheniciërs."
Gent University, Heemkring Ansfried - Genetica als hulpwetenschap bij het historisch onderzoek naar de oorsprong van de Kempische bevolking. (Dutch)
http://www.heemkringansfried.be/down...g_mechelen.pdf (http://www.heemkringansfried.be/download/lezing_mechelen.pdf)

RHAS
04-04-14, 06:24
Etruscans (J2) and Rome.

"A 2004 study by Semino et al. contradicted this study, and showed that Italians in North-central regions (like Tuscany and Emilia-Romagna) had a higher concentration of J2 than their Southern counterparts. North-central had 26.9% J2, whereas Calabria (a far Southern region) had 20.0%, Sardinia had 9.7% and Sicily had 16.7%. This could be because of the ancient Etruscans, who some think originated in the Near East."
Wikipedia.org - Genetic History of Italy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_Italy

"J2a`s strong presence in Italy is owed in great part to the migration of the Etruscans from western Anatolia to central and northern Italy, and to the Greek colonisation of southern Italy. Immigration from the eastern Mediterranean to Rome during the Roman Empire, then from Anatolia, Thrace and Greece during the Byzantine period period (particularly in north-eastern Italy) further increased the incidence of j2 in the peninsula."
Eupedia.com - Haplogroup J2. (2013)
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml)

"The presence of J2 haplotypes in central Italy may be related to the debated hypothesis of an Anatolian origin of the Etruscan people, as suggested by mtDNA analysis on modern and ancient samples (Francalacci et al., 1996; Vernesi et al., 2004; Achilli et al., 2007), although it could be arrived in the region much earlier following the Neolithic expansion."
Phylogeography of Y-chromosome in Europe.
http://eprints.uniss.it/2783/1/Francalacci_P_Articolo_2008_History.pdf (http://eprints.uniss.it/2783/1/Francalacci_P_Articolo_2008_History.pdf)

"A certain occurrence of J2-M172 Y-chromosomes in Tuscany has been related to the Etruscan heritage of the region (Achilli et al., 2007)."
Phylogeography of Y-chromosome in Europe.
http://eprints.uniss.it/2783/1/Francalacci_P_Articolo_2008_History.pdf (http://eprints.uniss.it/2783/1/Francalacci_P_Articolo_2008_History.pdf)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/t1.0-9/428377_529844790407014_802592639_n.jpg
Image: Artist depiction of Etruscans by Milo Manara as featured during Rome’s Museum of Etruscan Civilisation - Museo Nazionale Etrusco di Villa Giulia - unique exhibition of Etruscan themed comic books conceived by the archeaological services of southern Etruria (northern Lazio). The show had the backing of the Lazio region and was realized with the assistance of Civita, a cultural association and Comicon, one of Rome’s biggest comic expos.)

MOESAN
06-04-14, 17:26
Haplogroup J2 and Romans.

"Nog een aardigheidje voor Oost-Brabant: daar is een relatieve concentratie van haplogroep J gevonden. Volgens genetisch genealogen zijn die mensen waarschijnlijk nazaten van de oude Romeinen, gelegerd in Noviomagus (Nijmegen) of rond Locus Paludosus (De Peel)."
Eindhovens Dagblad - Veel DNA komt uit Spanje en Scandinavië. (Dutch)
http://www.ed.nl/regio/4449996/Veel-...candinavie.ece

Translated: One remarkable fact about this research is the concentration of J(2) found in the province of North Brabant, Genetic Genealogist believe these people are decended from Roman Soldiers stationed in Noviomagus (City of Nijmegen) and Locus Paludosis (De Peel)"

https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/560813_624791310912361_1467710557_n.jpg

Noviomagus (Nijmegen).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_1COdzfYOk

"Ulpia Noviomagus Batavorum is de naam van Nijmegen in de laat-Romeinse tijd; het voorvoegsel Ulpia verwijst naar keizer Marcus Ulpius Traianus hetgeen het mogelijk maakt de naam te dateren op 104 n.C. Voorheen stond de plaats bekend onder de naam Oppidum Batavorum. Of Batavodurum (versterkte stad van de Bataven) inderdaad dezelfde nederzetting aanduidt, is niet zeker."
Ulpia Noviomagus Batavorum (Dutch)
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulpia_Noviomagus_Batavorum

it is amazing nobody remarked the name NOVIOMAGUS ("new market"?) is a celtic name, what could prove the previous settlement or group of settlements was of celtic origin...

MOESAN
06-04-14, 17:34
What is not to say Y-J2 's are of celtic origin!!!

Angela
06-04-14, 18:12
This is all very interesting, and even suggestive, (even if some of it is woefully out of date. )

However, the facts are these:

1) There is no ancient yDNA of any Roman or any Etruscan.

2) There is no complete mtDNA sequence for any ancient Roman or Etruscan. All we have are some incomplete HVRI sequences for some Etruscan samples. Trying to draw conclusions from them is highly problematic, especially when comparing them to modern populations.

3) The scientists who first proposed that the mtDNA samples which they stated proved that the elite, at least, among the Etruscans came from Anatolia have since said that the lineages are so old that it is impossible to tell if they arrived on the peninsula during the Bronze Age or the Neolithic thousands of years before.

I've posted about this many times on this forum, and provided the documentation for all the above. You just need to search within the site.

Ed. As per post #140, all we have are some incomplete mtDNA results from Etruscans and from Pompeii.

Nobody1
06-04-14, 18:40
2) There is no complete mtDNA sequence for any ancient Roman or Etruscan. All we have are some incomplete HVRI sequences ...

Not really
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2009.00520.x/full

Angela
06-04-14, 20:30
Not really
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2009.00520.x/full

Are we reading the same study? I believe you've raised this issue before. I don't see any complete FGS mtDNA results in this paper, which is what I've said is lacking.

An FGS is what they've been doing with the ancient samples from Central Europe for example. You really can't draw conclusions about mtDNA without it, in my opinion. The time depths are just too huge.

Ed. Perhaps you meant that we do have some coding region results from Pompeii. I've edited my post to reflect that.

RHAS
21-04-14, 20:22
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/t31.0-8/1926092_720050028053155_806363549_o.jpg

"DNA of men whose forebears probably were Etruscans show they weren't local, but migrated, study says. Genetic studies of Italians in Tuscany show that their forefathers, the ancient Etruscans, moved to Italy from what is now Turkey -- an origin that many archeologists have dismissed as unlikely. The Etruscans, who emerged about 1200 BC, reached their zenith in the 6th century BC, dominating Italy and the Mediterranean area until being assimilated into the Roman Republic about 200 BC. They provided many of the cultural underpinnings of Roman society. They were skilled metallurgists and masterful seafarers, but their origin has been a source of dispute for at least 2,500 years."
LA Times - Genetic tests: Italians were from Turkey
http://articles.latimes.com/2007/jun...ci-etruscans18

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh72/gundalilama/RomulusEtRemus.jpg

"An earlier tradition that gave Romulus a distant ancestor in the semi-divine Trojan prince Aeneas was further embellished, and Romulus was made the direct ancestor of Rome's first Imperial dynasty. Possible historical bases for the broad mythological narrative remain unclear and disputed. The image of the she-wolf suckling the divinely fathered twins became an iconic representation of the city and its founding legend, making Romulus and Remus preeminent among the feral children of ancient mythography."
Romulus and Remus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Aeneas'_Flight_from_Troy_by_Federico_Barocci.jpg
Aeneas Flight from Troy by Federico Barocci.

"In Greco-Roman mythology, Aeneas (/ɪˈniːəs/; Greek: Αἰνείας, Aineías, possibly derived from Greek αἰνή meaning "praise") was a Trojan hero, the son of the prince Anchises and the goddess Aphrodite. His father was the second cousin of King Priam of Troy, making Aeneas Priam's second cousin, once removed. He is a character in Greek mythology and is mentioned in Homer's Iliad, and receives full treatment in Roman mythology as the legendary founder of what would become Ancient Rome, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid."
Aeneas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas

http://www.bergbook.com/images/17715-01.jpg
Map Aeneae Troiani Navigatio

http://www.daviddarling.info/images/journeys_of_Aeneas.jpg
Travels of Aeneas.

"J2a-M92 is a well-defined J2a-M67 sub-lineage, with a distribution restricted to Asia Minor, the Balkans and the north-eastern Mediterranean coasts. Frequency and variance maps make plausible an origin in north-western Turkey, where the highest variance is registered, and a subsequent migration to the Balkans and then to the Italian Peninsula."
Ancient Migratory Events in the Middle East: New Clues from the Y-Chromosome Variation of Modern Iranians.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...e-0041252-g002 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252#pone-0041252-g002)

https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/539802_497512770306883_1591683737_n.jpg

"Working with linguistic evidence and etymogical "method" Georgiev asserts that the Etruscans were none other then the Trojans, the legendary founders of Rome." (Philip Baldi, The foundations of Latin, Walter de Gruyter, 2002. p. 111)"
Etruscans - Ancient Mediterranean Türks of Eurasia (proto-Hungarian - proto-Türkic)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKFCs5m19pQ

"Genetic research made public at the weekend appears to put the matter beyond doubt, however. It shows the Etruscans came from the area which is now Turkey - and that the nearest genetic relatives of many of today's Tuscans and Umbrians are to be found, not in Italy, but around Izmir......The latest findings confirm what was said about the matter almost 2,500 years ago, by the Greek historian Herodotus. The first traces of Etruscan civilisation in Italy date from about 1200 BC.......But the latest conclusions may add weight to a rival, apparently more fanciful, theory that links their name to Troy, the "city of towers" and a part of the Lydian empire. The most likely date for the fall of Troy, as described by Homer, is between 1250 and 1200 BC. The Etruscans' contribution to Roman civilisation is still debated. They provided Rome with some of its early kings, and maybe even its name."
The Guardian - The enigma of Italy's ancient Etruscans is finally unravelled DNA tests on their Italian descendants show the 'tuscii' came from Turkey.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/jun/18/italy.johnhooper

RHAS
09-05-14, 00:34
"Nice, France: The long-running controversy about the origins of the Etruscan people appears to be very close to being settled once and for all, a geneticist will tell the annual conference of the European Society of Human Genetics today (Sunday June 17). Professor Alberto Piazza, from the University of Turin, Italy, will say that there is overwhelming evidence that the Etruscans, whose brilliant civilisation flourished 3000 years ago in what is now Tuscany, were settlers from old Anatolia (now in southern Turkey)."
European Society of Human Genetics - Ancient Etruscans were immigrants from Anatolia (now Turkey) - geneticists find the final piece in the puzzle
https://secure.medacad.org/eshg.org/13.0.html

The mystery of Etruscan origins: novel clues from Bos taurus mitochondrial DNA
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/274/1614/1175.abstract


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNbhVFdC_Qc

Subtitled version:
http://dotsub.com/view/5978f5f8-ba84-401b-af6f-84d06e261684

"There is a distinct association of ancient J2 civilisations with bull worship."
Eupedia.com, 2011.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

http://www.maravot.com/Etruscan_mural_bull.gif
Etruscan mural depiction of a Bull, from the Tomb of the Bulls in Tarquinia.

"Another fresco is situated horizontally between the two doorways, in the center of the wall. It portrays the ambush of Troilus by Achilles, which is described in the Cypria. The event precedes the pursuit and slaying of Troilus by Achilles at the altar of Apollo. .... He identifies the rider as Troilus because he wears a Phrygian cap and has a large knot of hair."
Wikipedia - Tomb of the Bulls.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_of_the_Bulls

RHAS
09-05-14, 01:04
Haplogroup J2 Romans. (Aeneas, Trojans, Phoenicians, Carthage, Rome)

"The results regarding my paternal genetics were identified as belonging to Haplogroup J2 (M172). This genetic marker dates back to roughly 15 000 yrs ago and is found predominately in the Fertile Crescent. Most prevalent in Southern Italy, Turkey, Greece, Lebanon, Cyprus and several other countries around the Mediterranean and Caucasus region, some sources claim that these are the genes of the ancient Phoenicians who may have settled in the Roman Empire long ago."
Livelearngrow.ca - My Roots.
http://livelearngrow.ca/category/my-roots/

"The excess of haplogroup J2, and PC1+ to PS3+ in coastal Tunisia, the site of Carthage, compared to inland Tunisian populations is exceptionally significant, and suggests that the Roman destruction of Carthage did not eliminate the Carthaginian gene pool."
Anthropology.net - The Y-Chromosomal Footprint Of Phoenicians Throughout The Mediterranean.
http://anthropology.net/2008/10/30/the-y-chromosomal-footprint-of-phoenicians-throughout-the-mediterranean/

"By a.d. 193 Rome had an emperor from North Africa, Septimius Severus, and he spoke with a strong Phoenician accent. That was the revenge of Carthage. The Phoenicians also persisted genetically."
National Geographic - Who were the Phoenicians?
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/features/world/asia/lebanon/phoenicians-text/5

"Carthage also became a centre of early Christianity."
Wikipedia - Carthage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthage

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Gu%C3%A9rin_%C3%89n%C3%A9e_racontant_%C3%A0_Didon_ les_malheurs_de_la_ville_de_Troie_Louvre_5184.jpg
Aeneas recounting the Trojan War to Dido, a painting by Pierre-Narcisse Guérin. This scene is taken from Virgil's Aeneid, where Dido falls in love with, only to be left by, the Trojan hero Aeneas.

"Dido (/ˈdaɪdoʊ/ DY-doh) was, according to ancient Greek and Roman sources, the founder and first Queen of Carthage (in modern-day Tunisia). She is best known from the account given by the Roman poet Virgil in his Aeneid. ...... The person of Dido can be traced to references by Roman historians to lost writings of Timaeus of Tauromenium in Sicily (c. 356–260 BC)."
Wikipedia.org - Dido (Queen of Carthage)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dido_(Queen_of_Carthage)

RHAS
09-05-14, 01:49
J2a and Jewish origin is not even a theory but pure speculation.

"EEJ are Europeans probably of Roman descent who converted to Judaism at times, when Judaism was the first monotheistic religion that spread in the ancient world. Any other theory about their origin is not supported by the genetic data. Future studies will have to address their genetic affinities to various Italian populations and examine the possibility of other components both European and Non-European in their gene pool."
The origin of Eastern European Jews revealed by autosomal, sex chromosomal and mtDNA polymorphisms.
http://www.biologydirect.com/content/5/1/57#B10 (http://www.biologydirect.com/content/5/1/57)

"Many people new to Genetic Genealogy think the J2 haplogroup is synonymous with having male Jewish ancestry. One should note that having a J2 haplogroup assignment does not necessarily indicate Jewish ancestry. The J2 haplogroup is far more ancient than the Jewish religion and is found in many lines with Mediterranean region ancient ancestry. Another relatively more recent mode for J2's entry into some parts of Europe from the Mediterranean areas could have been the Roman Legions and Roman settlements."
Kerchner.com - YDNA Haplogroup Descriptions & Information Links.
http://www.kerchner.com/haplogroups-ydna.htm

RHAS
09-05-14, 02:14
Haplogroup J2, Romans, Britain & Viticulture.

"The Tree 11 MITCHELMORE belongs to Haplogroup J2 or J-M172. This group migrated westward from the Middle East about 25,000 years ago, travelling along the north and south Mediterranean coastlines. One hypothesis is that this haplogroup was introduced into the British Isles by Roman soldiers; certainly Italy is one of the European countries with the highest frequency of haplogroup J2 today."
M*CH*MORE one name study - DNA Results
http://www.mitchelmore.info/join/dna-results.htm


Haplogroup J2, Romans & Britain.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1403681_622703424454483_2047931370_o.jpg

"The findings so far indicate that the imperial Italians of the early first millennium AD did not introduce their British subjects only to legionaries, villas and togas, but to the delights of cheap plonk as well."
The Independent - Veni Vidi Viticulture.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/veni-vidi-viticulture--remains-of-roman-vineyards-found-in-uk-738723.html


Haplogroup J2, Britain, Romans and Viticulture.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1403555_622024857855673_177574294_o.jpg


https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1.0-9/10363492_748230801901744_8152338352413016755_n.jpg

'In Vino Veritas'

RHAS
09-05-14, 03:22
North Mediterranean, J-M172 and Romans.

"The first axis accounted for 43.71% of the haplogroup frequency variation and clearly separated east European populations from north Mediterranean groups. The second PC encompassed 34.60% of the observed variance and separated most of the north Balkan samples from the rest of European samples. Vector analysis demonstrates that the north Mediterranean cluster is most associated with haplogroups J-M172, E-v13 and R-M269."
Paleo-Balkan and Slavic Contributions to the Genetic Pool of Moldavians: Insights from the Y Chromosome.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0053731 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0053731)

"7.2 North Mediterranean. Overview. From Spain to Greece, the North Mediterranean cluster defines an arc from Gibraltar to Bosphorus. Ancient and robust, this group is dominant in Southern Europe. Its strongest source is from the first farmers to migrate out of Western Eurasia. They absorbed those who were there before, holdovers from the Ice Age. A long history of traveling merchants and seafarers shaped this cluster. The great empires of Rome and Greece carried it away to distant lands. They also brought a second wave of Western Eurasian influence into the cluster. Its modern geography speaks to the history of those who moved, either willingly or in chains, under the Roman Empire. Because of this, the cluster’s signature is strongest in the western part of the Mediterranean. It is particularly strong on the isolated island of Sardinia. It reaches also upwards to the British Islands as well as east into modern Turkey. The politics of empire and of a later Rome may explain why the cluster is part of many Southern European and non-European Jewish Diaspora populations."
FamilytreeDNA - MyOrigins Methodology.
https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/family-finder-pages/myorigins-methodology/

RHAS
15-05-14, 18:58
A professional and E-X-C-E-L-L-E-N-T post.

Thank you!

RHAS
18-05-14, 12:50
Haplogroup J2 and Romans (Netherlands/United Kingdom).

https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/10268700_749968678394623_6319617964394007202_n.jpg

Fragment taken from the book 'Zonen van Adam', regarding Hg J2-M172.
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zonen_van_Adam
http://www.barjesteh.nl/omslag.JPG

NL "Een opvallende, oud cluster is te vinden noord-oostelijk Branbant. Hier stuiten we wellicht op een erfenis van de in en nabij Nijmegen gelegerde Romeinse troepen, waarin veel huurlingen uit het Midden-0osten te vinden waren. Een soortgelijke verklaring wordt gegeven voor een cluster J2 bij de muur van Hadrianus in Groot Brittanie."

UK "A remarkable old cluster can be found in North east Brabant (Netherlands). Here we see a possible heritage from the Roman soldiers who were stationed in and around Nijmegen (Noviomagus) among which were many mercenaries from the middle east. The same explanation is given for a cluster of J2 near Hadrians wall in Great Britain."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQHmbN5-914

RHAS
20-05-14, 07:44
"The likely deep ancestry source of Haplogroup J2 as found along the Anglo-Scottish border is probably to be found with members of the Roman Legions which were stationed along Hadrian's wall."
Border receivers - DNA Report Nov 2005.
http://www.borderreivers.co.uk/DNA%20Report%207%20Nov%2005.htm

"Moffat said his colleagues had also discovered DNA originating from Roman-period Illyria, the area occupied by modern Croatia, which may relate to Roman occupation of lowland Scotland."
The Guardian - Scotland DNA Study Project.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/aug/15/scotland-dna-study-project (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/aug/15/scotland-dna-study-project)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNoa9hwbW9M

RHAS
22-05-14, 05:32
Haplogroup J2 Romans. (Aeneas, Trojans, Phoenicians, Carthage, Rome)

"The results regarding my paternal genetics were identified as belonging to Haplogroup J2 (M172). This genetic marker dates back to roughly 15 000 yrs ago and is found predominately in the Fertile Crescent. Most prevalent in Southern Italy, Turkey, Greece, Lebanon, Cyprus and several other countries around the Mediterranean and Caucasus region, some sources claim that these are the genes of the ancient Phoenicians who may have settled in the Roman Empire long ago."
Livelearngrow.ca - My Roots.
http://livelearngrow.ca/category/my-roots/

"The excess of haplogroup J2, and PC1+ to PS3+ in coastal Tunisia, the site of Carthage, compared to inland Tunisian populations is exceptionally significant, and suggests that the Roman destruction of Carthage did not eliminate the Carthaginian gene pool."
Anthropology.net - The Y-Chromosomal Footprint Of Phoenicians Throughout The Mediterranean.
http://anthropology.net/2008/10/30/the-y-chromosomal-footprint-of-phoenicians-throughout-the-mediterranean/

"By a.d. 193 Rome had an emperor from North Africa, Septimius Severus, and he spoke with a strong Phoenician accent. That was the revenge of Carthage. The Phoenicians also persisted genetically."
National Geographic - Who were the Phoenicians?
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/features/world/asia/lebanon/phoenicians-text/5

"Carthage also became a centre of early Christianity."
Wikipedia - Carthage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthage

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Gu%C3%A9rin_%C3%89n%C3%A9e_racontant_%C3%A0_Didon_ les_malheurs_de_la_ville_de_Troie_Louvre_5184.jpg
Aeneas recounting the Trojan War to Dido, a painting by Pierre-Narcisse Guérin. This scene is taken from Virgil's Aeneid, where Dido falls in love with, only to be left by, the Trojan hero Aeneas.

"Dido (/ˈdaɪdoʊ/ DY-doh) was, according to ancient Greek and Roman sources, the founder and first Queen of Carthage (in modern-day Tunisia). She is best known from the account given by the Roman poet Virgil in his Aeneid. ...... The person of Dido can be traced to references by Roman historians to lost writings of Timaeus of Tauromenium in Sicily (c. 356–260 BC)."
Wikipedia.org - Dido (Queen of Carthage)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dido_(Queen_of_Carthage)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/R%C3%B6merhalle%2C_Bad_Kreuznach_-_Tiberius_Iulius_Abdes_Pantera_tombstone.JPG
The Roman tombstone in Bingerbrück, Germany

Tib(erius) Iul(ius) Abdes Pantera Sidonia ann(orum) LXII stipen(diorum) XXXX miles exs(ignifer?)coh(orte) I sagittariorumh(ic) s(itus) e(st)

Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera from Sidon, aged 62 years served 40 years, former standard bearer(?) of the first cohort of archers lies here.

"It was one of the most important Phoenician cities, and may have been the oldest."
Wikipedia - Sidon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidon

"The YDNA Haplogroup of the ancient Phoenicians is J2, also identified as the signature of human migration via the Mediterranean in the Neolithic or New Stone Age around 6,000 BC, from the Levant into Europe."
Ancientmed.org - The Mediterraneans.
http://www.ancientmed.org/TheMediterraneans.htm

"Was im ersten Moment exotisch erscheint, ist auf den zweiten Blick gar nicht so aussergewöhnlich. Rund jeder achte Europäer stammt aus der Linie J2."
Tages Anzeiger - Für 300 Franken auf den Spuren der eigenen Vorfahren. (German)
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/leben/ge...story/28960496 (http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/leben/gesellschaft/Fuer-300-Franken-auf-den-Spuren-der-eigenen-Vorfahren/story/28960496)

"J2 Orientalide West. Ihr Verbreitungsgebiet ist der europäische Mittelmeerraum."
Die Haplogruppen des Y-Adams nach Ländern Europas verteilt. (German)
http://www.manfred-hiebl.com/Y-Adam-...ung_Europa.pdf (http://www.manfred-hiebl.com/Y-Adam-Verteilung_Europa.pdf)

RHAS
22-05-14, 05:34
Haplogroup J2 and viticulture.

"Wine making spread to Crete during the Minoan period and then later to Italy with the Etruscans and to Iberia with the Phoenicians. It was an integral component of the economy and social culture of the proto-greek civilizations and the phoenicians who both went on to settle other mediterranean coastal regions. And tracing the spread of Viticulture from its origins to its spread before the Roman period, we can see te highest levels of Haplogroup J2 today correlate with the geographical centres of all these civilizations. While viticulture may not represent the first wave of M172 migrants to Europe, M172 certainly played a strong role in bringing Viticulture to Europe with such civilizations as the Minoans, Greeks and Phoenicians."
M172 Blog - Correlations in the spread of Viticulture and Haplogroup J2, 2008.
http://m172.blogspot.nl/2008/10/correlations-in-spread-of-viticulture.html

"King et Al noted a strong correlation in precipitation levels and associated levels of J2a (M172+ M410+) within the Middle East, stating:The genetic memory retained in the extant distributions of Y-chromosome haplogroups J1-M267 and J2a-M410 within the FertileCrescent significantly correlates with regional levels of annual precipitation in a reciprocal manner. The statistically significant correlations of Y-chromosome haplogroups, precipitation levels and domestic lifestyle are pronounced. The spatial frequency distribution of haplogroup J2a coincides closely with regions characterised by >400mm of annual precipitation capable of supporting settled agriculture, while haplogroup J1-M267 distributions correlate inversely with semi-arid regions characteristically used by pastoralists. Thus, King et al have established that M410's spread seems to correlate with rainfall. It would then make sense that viticulture would likely mirror this spread since about 400 mm is also the level of annual precipiation required to support the farming of Wine Grapes (General Viticulture, Albert Julius Winkler p 395). And this is what we see; that viticulture mirrors the proposed spread of M172, M410 through the Near east during the bronze age."
M172 Blog - Correlations in the spread of Viticulture and Haplogroup J2, 2008.
http://m172.blogspot.nl/2008/10/correlations-in-spread-of-viticulture.html

https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1.0-9/10330406_751855728205918_5751958829207471782_n.jpg

"In the time of the Roman Empire, grapevine varieties assumed such great importance that many of the indigenous varieties were brought to the colonies or later imported."
VinetoWinecircle - The time of Roman Empire.
http://www.vinetowinecircle.com/en/history/the-time-of-the-roman-empire/

"Earlier studies have concluded that the J-M410 sub-clades, J-DYS445-6 and J-M67, are linked to the spread of farming in the Mediterranean Basin, with a likely origin in Anatolia."
Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of agriculture in southeast Europe.
http://www.unipv.eu/on-line/Home/AreaStampa/documento2986.html

https://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1.0-9/10363492_748230801901744_8152338352413016755_n.jpg

Aberdeen
22-05-14, 08:23
It really doesn't matter how much fanciful material you post. Until you have old DNA results from Phoenician sites, none of this proves that the Phoenicians were J2. And the Phoenician theory certainly doesn't explain the high levels of J2 in central Italy or the Balkans. I think a Neolithic expansion out of Anatolia explains the J2 distribution better.

Sile
22-05-14, 08:52
It really doesn't matter how much fanciful material you post. Until you have old DNA results from Phoenician sites, none of this proves that the Phoenicians were J2. And the Phoenician theory certainly doesn't explain the high levels of J2 in central Italy or the Balkans. I think a Neolithic expansion out of Anatolia explains the J2 distribution better.

Its because I was told he is J2b which is most frequent in the Balkans (Albanians have 10%, Greeks 10%, Ionian Greeks 6%, Sicilian Greeks and Cretans have around 4%) while, J2a on the other hand is most frequent among Cypriots, Greek S/Italians, Armenians, Georgians, Iranians, Lebanese (all have above 20%) .
Seems he is trying to say that J2a which are from the levant are related to J2b which is from Anatolia and they formed the basis of the Romans prior to Empire building.

So J2a pushed west from the Caucasus into Levant to form J2a and into Anatolia to form J2b. .........that's basically the idea of the story. Throw in the Roman story that they are trojans etc etc

Angela
22-05-14, 16:46
As far as the Neolithic goes, we've got lots of G2a, some (absorbed?) I2a and E-V13. We might find some Neolithic era J2 in the Balkans if those darn results ever come out, but so far yDNA "J2" doesn't look very Neolithic to me.

Based on the current evidence, I'm inclined to think that J2 is a Metal Ages entrant into Europe and perhaps carried a dose of ANE along with it.

That doesn't mean it was necessarily Phoenician, however. J2a is also present all through Anatolia and the Greek islands. The clades in Italy have multiple other possible sources, including Crete and the other Greek islands, Greek colonists from Ionia, and possibly some late migration from Anatolia itself.

In that regard, I'd also just like to state for probably the tenth time, in relation to the posts about the Etruscans upthread that it isn't helpful to post very old studies. Some of the authors of the original papers postulating a Bronze Age Etruscan origin in Anatolia based on mtDNA have since published papers saying that the mtDNA is so old it could just as well have arrived in central Italy during the Neolithic. We aren't going to know until those bones are subjected to in depth high resolution testing.

Aberdeen
22-05-14, 17:22
As far as the Neolithic goes, we've got lots of G2a, some (absorbed?) I2a and E-V13. We might find some Neolithic era J2 in the Balkans if those darn results ever come out, but so far yDNA "J2" doesn't look very Neolithic to me.

Based on the current evidence, I'm inclined to think that J2 is a Metal Ages entrant into Europe and perhaps carried a dose of ANE along with it.

That doesn't mean it was necessarily Phoenician, however. J2a is also present all through Anatolia and the Greek islands. The clades in Italy have multiple other possible sources, including Crete and the other Greek islands, Greek colonists from Ionia, and possibly some late migration from Anatolia itself.

In that regard, I'd also just like to state for probably the tenth time, in relation to the posts about the Etruscans upthread that it isn't helpful to post very old studies. Some of the authors of the original papers postulating a Bronze Age Etruscan origin in Anatolia based on mtDNA have since published papers saying that the mtDNA is so old it could just as well have arrived in central Italy during the Neolithic. We aren't going to know until those bones are subjected to in depth high resolution testing.

Okay, valid point, there isn't the evidence so far to support the idea of J2 being Neolithic, and only a lack of data allows me to make that assumption at this point. But what are the alternatives, given the wide distribution of J2 and the places where it's most common? By "Metal Ages", do you mean Copper Age, Bronze Age or Iron Age? That covers a huge time span, so could you be more specific? If you mean Copper Age, are you associating J2 with Bell Beaker? If you mean Bronze Age, are you associating J2 with the Indo-European invasions?

As far as J2 not being present in Italy or the Balkans during the Neolithic, lack of data is not proof of anything. I said Neolithic (and should have specifically said late Neolithic) because none of the alternatives seem to fit, IMO. The only thing I feel confident in saying is that I don't think the distribution of J2 matches the Phoenicians very well.

Angela
22-05-14, 20:21
Okay, valid point, there isn't the evidence so far to support the idea of J2 being Neolithic, and only a lack of data allows me to make that assumption at this point. But what are the alternatives, given the wide distribution of J2 and the places where it's most common? By "Metal Ages", do you mean Copper Age, Bronze Age or Iron Age? That covers a huge time span, so could you be more specific? If you mean Copper Age, are you associating J2 with Bell Beaker? If you mean Bronze Age, are you associating J2 with the Indo-European invasions?

As far as J2 not being present in Italy or the Balkans during the Neolithic, lack of data is not proof of anything. I said Neolithic (and should have specifically said late Neolithic) because none of the alternatives seem to fit, IMO. The only thing I feel confident in saying is that I don't think the distribution of J2 matches the Phoenicians very well.

I totally agree that the distribution of J2 requires a lot more than the Phoenicians to explain it.

In terms of J2 and the Neolithic, it's not just that we don't have any evidence yet of J2 in a Neolithic context; it's that if it were early or even mid-Neolithic I would expect to see more of it in Central Europe. However, as you often note yourself, modern distributions have been proven to be poor indicators of ancient presence time and time again, so we could find localized J2 in Neolithic contexts in Anatolia or Greece or southern Italy tomorrow and it wouldn't be a great surprise to me.

Even were that to happen, however, I think J2 frequency today is probably the result of numerous different layers of migration from the direction of the southeast, many of which took place during the Metal Ages. I think one obvious source is the Iron Age colonization of southern Italy and Sicily by the Greeks. Many of the founders of these colonies were from Ionian city states on the western coast of Anatolia, or from the islands.

There was also influence from this direction, which could have entailed actual gene flow, earlier in the Bronze Age.
See, Philip Baldi, The Foundations of Latin, for an English language source.
http://books.google.com/books?id=afsDrP9K3pQC&pg=PA99&lpg=PA99&dq=apennine+culture&source=bl&ots=wWTc2LG8ek&sig=NVgQLkgMBoa3OhEkYj8pq2xK7JM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nCJ-U9XuH5bJsQT-woLYDg&ved=0CCgQ6AEwADgU#v=onepage&q=apennine%20culture&f=false

I'll try to find some relatively short Italian articles that can be google translated for the same proposition.

I also think it looks like there was a definite movement of J2b directly across the Adriatic from the Balkans into Italy. The question is when. Since it doesn't seem to have been accompanied by I2a, that has implications for the timing of the move into Italy and also for analyses of I2a in the Balkans.

Aberdeen
22-05-14, 20:45
I thought about the possibility of Greece being the source of the J2 in Italy, and was put off that idea by the fact that modern central Italy has approximately as much J2 as Sicily and more than southern Italy and Greece itself. Of course, there are all sorts of ways to explain that away, given the various population shifts that happened in those areas over the centuries, so I still can't rule it out. And Greece doesn't have nearly as much I2 as other Balkan countries, which would be an argument in favour of I2 being a Slavic import, even though I've been assuming that I2 was probably ancient in the Balkans.

On the other hand, if we use current DNA results to tell us something about the past (which I'll admit I've argued against), the massive quantity of J2 in central Italy might suggest that the non-Latin population of central Italy was strongly J2. The involvement of such populations in the armies of imperial Rome could explain why J2 is found at low levels everywhere in Europe that the legionnaires went. Of course, that argument also works if the source of J2 in central Italy was Greek colonization, but I'm not sure the levels of J2 would be that high if the source was the colonization of Magna Grecia. And of course if I2 did arrive in the Balkans later than I've been assuming, the J2 could have migrated from somewhere in the Balkans other than Greece. In which case, we're back to considering the possibility of late Neolithic migration of J2 into Italy, IMO.

kamani
22-05-14, 22:12
In terms of J2 and the Neolithic, it's not just that we don't have any evidence yet of J2 in a Neolithic context; it's that if it were early or even mid-Neolithic I would expect to see more of it in Central Europe. However, as you often note yourself, modern distributions have been proven to be poor indicators of ancient presence time and time again, so we could find localized J2 in Neolithic contexts in Anatolia or Greece or southern Italy tomorrow and it wouldn't be a great surprise to me.


Yea, nothing from Neolithic Central Europe survived very well the arrival of R1a/R1b. But what if J2 was a branch of Bronze-Age Indo-Europeans? We still don't know what haplogroup brought Latin to Italy...

Aberdeen
23-05-14, 16:45
Yea, nothing from Neolithic Central Europe survived very well the arrival of R1a/R1b. But what if J2 was a branch of Bronze-Age Indo-Europeans? We still don't know what haplogroup brought Latin to Italy...

I'll admit that we can't rule out that possibility until we get the old Y DNA results we need from various sources. I'm inclined to think that J2 is too common in some parts of Italy to have arrived there that late, but the same argument would obviously apply to R1b and most people on this forum seem to think that R1b was in fact brought to western Europe by Bronze Age invaders. Maybe J2 was as well. That isn't what I think, but I can't say I can disprove the idea.

LeBrok
23-05-14, 17:42
In some other thread I was musing about J2 standing behind copper age of Varna and Cucuteni cultures. Chalcolithic started very early in Balkans.

Aberdeen
23-05-14, 19:37
In some other thread I was musing about J2 standing behind copper age of Varna and Cucuteni cultures. Chalcolithic started very early in Balkans.

Okay, but how did it get to Italy in such quantities? I think you mentioned in another thread that the distribution of J2 at low levels in other parts of western Europe seemed similar to the limits of the Roman Empire and that seems plausible, but are you saying that the reason J2 is so high in Italy is because it was brought to Italy by Copper Age people from the Balkans?

Angela
23-05-14, 21:29
Just looking at Maciamo's map, the argument could be made for both a Neolithic or a Metal Ages spread, which makes sense because the Bronze and Iron Age migrations from Greece and/or Anatolia come from the same part of the world which was the source of the Neolithic.

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg

As for frequency within Italy, the Boattini data is better sourced in that it is surname based, which is very important in a country that has experienced massive amounts of internal migrations relatively recently, but on the other hand the sample numbers are very small, so I'm not sure of the accuracy of a 22% or so frequency in Umbria and the Marche, which would bring those east of the Apennines, more Adriatic leaning provinces close to or even surpassing some of the levels in southern Italy and parts of Sicily.

My personal feeling is that some of it may indeed have a late Neolithic source from the Balkans, or at least that wouldn't surprise me, but I would find it extraordinary if all of the Bronze Age and Iron Age movements from Crete, the other islands and Greece proper into the mainland and Sicily did not impact those levels significantly, and that doesn't even take into account any possible movement involved in the formation of the Etruscan culture in the Bronze Age by migrants from Anatolia or the eastern Aegean directly into Tuscany, should that ever be proven. (Although interestingly enough, Tuscany itself, based on the Boattini data as well as the composite data put together by Maciamo, is rather low.) Then there are Byzantine era influences to be considered.

I think, as Maciamo pointed out, that it's interesting that the Apennine area in central and southern Italy is a yDNA "G" heavy, but a yDNA "J" light area. Perhaps the mountains served as a refugia for Neolithic peoples, with later emigrants having more impact on coastal areas? I think that heavy coastal pattern for "J" is also apparent in areas like Liguria and the northeast, where "J2" in some frequency maps seems to peter out as you go inland. (Then again, in the north, the entrance of R1b may have changed the proportions of the yDNA haplogroups.)

Ancient DNA will be the most probative, obviously, but if modern distributions are going to be used, you need very high resolution scans as well as much larger samples.

FWIW, the Boattini papers do give more resolution than we usually have, so we can see different clades of J2, which might very well have formed parts of different migration movements. I think it's a mistake to think J2 is any more monolithic than some of the "R" clades. One thing that I did learn from those papers is that there is very little "Semitic" J1 in Italy. Most of the J1 that is present is of the northern near East, presumably older, Neolithic variety. Maybe some of the J2 will fall into that category as well. However, as I said, I think much of it will also be of the Cretan, generally Greek islander and Ionian Greek variety, as an example.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28670-Distribution-of-J2-subclades-in-Italy-%28Boattini-et-al-%29?highlight=Boattini

The latest Boattini paper on southern Italian markers also provides TMRCA dates for J2 of between 1700 and 1250 B.C., which is, of course, Bronze Age. I'm a bit of a skeptic myself about this kind of dating, so I certainly don't find it definitive, and in addition, that doesn't mean that's when it came, but it's an indication, I think, that these markers don't have a really ancient presence in Italy.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29842-southern-Italian-paper-2014?highlight=Boattini+-+southern+Italy

LeBrok
24-05-14, 05:52
Okay, but how did it get to Italy in such quantities? I think you mentioned in another thread that the distribution of J2 at low levels in other parts of western Europe seemed similar to the limits of the Roman Empire and that seems plausible, but are you saying that the reason J2 is so high in Italy is because it was brought to Italy by Copper Age people from the Balkans?
Looking at this wide distribution of J2 and in substantial number, and practically all over Europe, it makes it entrance not later than IE bronze age. It doesn't correlate with R1a or R1b IEs and later big population movements from South to North are not known. From Bronze Age on all migrations went from West to East and from North to South. It looks like J2 distribution went from South to North, or rather from South East. This is the way of Neolithic Farmers, or Copper Expansion.
Now, assuming that copper age started in Balkans in Farmers communities, it means that J2 had to show up earlier, perhaps on a wave of one of farming improvements. Unless Chalcolithic started in Near East and was brought to Balkans with J2.

There are possibilities however that big disasters, like 3,000 BC population collapse in Balkans or Bronze Age collapse creates demographic void and opportunity for tribes from far away for a quick and deep entrance. Sort of like Slavic expansion.

RHAS
30-08-14, 18:33
Haplogroup J2 and Christianity (and Mithraism, Zoroastianism, hebrew).


Correlations between Haplogroup J2 M172, the Roman Empire, Christianity and Viticulture.

Haplogroup J2 - Spread of Christianity.

https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/555133_517420614982765_1576923373_n.jpg

Diffusion of religions;

https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/10574476_795718893819601_7691432219553642064_n.jpg ?oh=c1a60b44af93a25bba0ebe544c5992d2&oe=5462F8FC
Source (MIT): http://web.mit.edu/course/21/21h.580/www/timesatlas/p26_1.jpg

https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1/1379310_623171751074317_1544350417_n.jpg
(Left: The geographic space over which Classical Greek and Latin served as a lingua franca in antiquity. Right: Y-DNA Haplogroup Frequency map of J2-M172.)
Source of Language Map (Harvard University): http://chs.harvard.edu/wa/pageR?tn=ArticleWrapper&bdc=12&mn=4827

http://www.ict.griffith.edu.au/wiseman/Roman/GrecoRoman.gif
Greco-Roman Spheres of Influence: Source Griffith University.

RHAS
30-08-14, 18:38
Haplogroup J2 and the Roman Empire.

"Yeah, it`s just that J2 isn`t really found in the modern Irish population," says Adam. "it is found in very small percentages in England, mostly areas that used to have a large Roman presence during the Roman conquest of Britain."
Silver Alert - A Florida Story.
http://books.google.nl/books?id=-qLxAwAAQBAJ

"Roman Empire (150 BC – 400 CE): very likely this era imported most of the modern European J2a, especially to Northwestern Europe. Probably also J2b expanded out of the Balkan to Western Europe mainly in this period. The migration was probably driven by commerce, trade, military movements and (re)settling of free land."
J2-M172 Haplogroup Research - Cultural History
http://j2-m172.info/links/cultural-history/

"J2 has been well-studied and can be split into several subgroups, although the modes of individual distribution for those subgroups are not well understood. Many influences, such as Greek and Roman societies, would have played a part."
Gerardi/Gelardi Family History.
http://gelardifamily.net/gerardigelardi_dna


Hg J2-M172 & Roman Republic.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t1.0-9/1236259_591804834211009_98755787_n.jpg

"Il DNA greco/etrusco. L'aplogruppo J2, presente in tutta Europa, è di chiara origine neolitica e mediorientale. Fenici, Etruschi, Grecie da ultimo Romani (e, a nostro parere, anche i Bizantini), contribuirono a diffonderlo in Europa, fermo restando il fondo derivante dall'invasione neolitica. I confini della maggior diffusione di J2 presentano una notevole somiglianza con quelli dell'Impero romano, in accordo con quanto detto in precedenza. Tuttavia, per quanto riguarda la Padania, la sua presenza è piuttosto messa inrelazione con l'influenza etrusca. Un esame della distribuzione di J2 mostra come tale aplogruppo, in Padania, abbia una consistenza relativamente alta solo in una ristretta fascia attorno alla costa adriatica. Nel resto della Padania le percentuali sono paragonabili a quelle dell'area centro europea (ad est) ed iberica (ad ovest). Il pensiero, a nostro parere, non può non andare alle colonie greco-etrusche di Adria eSpina ed anche all'influenza bizantina a Venezia. Ricordiamo che già gli studi di Cavalli Sforza avevano messo in luce una (minoritaria) influenza greca nelle zone considerate. Ci sembra quindi che J2, in Padania, derivi principalmente dal fondo neolitico e, sulla costa adriatica, dal ben noto contributo greco ed etrusco (e bizantino)."
DNA barbarico (e non) in Padania.
http://www.academia.edu/7391890/DNA_Barbarico_e_non_in_Padania

"J2: essenzialmente è un aplogruppo originario della Mesopotamia. E’ l’aplogruppo principale delle società che hanno dominato il Mediterraneo. Esso si divide a sua volta in due ramificazioni principali J2A e J2B. La prima ramificazione si è diffusa nel mediterraneo grazie all’espansione dei Greci, dei Romani, dei Fenici, degli Ebrei e degli Etruschi. Ed è quello presente anche come aplogruppo maggioritario in regioni come l’Inguscezia e la Cecenia. L’aplogruppo J2B è meno diffuso, ed è comune nei balcani, soprattutto tra l’Albania, la Macedonia e nel nord dell’India. Quindi probabilmente, l’aplogruppo J2B può al pari di alcune ramificazioni dell’aplogruppo G, far parte delle tribù indoeuropee ariane che invasero l’India. Alcuni ipotesi dicono come questo aplogruppo sia quello degli antichi macedoni di Alessandro Magno, dato che si ritrova nel percorso di conquista nella truppe macedoni."
Hescaton.com - L’Europa genetica.
http://www.hescaton.com/wordpress/leuropa-genetica/

Aberdeen
30-08-14, 19:11
Okay, but when and how did so much J2 end up in Europe? It hasn't been found in Neolithic sites, and yet the levels of J2 in Italy and it's distribution pattern suggests that it must have been present in Europe since at least the Bronze Age, if not before. Why is there so much J2 in northern Italy? Except for an ambiguous finding among the Corded Ware folk which was probably actually I rather than J, no J has been found in early Europe.

Angela
30-08-14, 21:17
Okay, but when and how did so much J2 end up in Europe? It hasn't been found in Neolithic sites, and yet the levels of J2 in Italy and it's distribution pattern suggests that it must have been present in Europe since at least the Bronze Age, if not before. Why is there so much J2 in northern Italy? Except for an ambiguous finding among the Corded Ware folk which was probably actually I rather than J, no J has been found in early Europe.


Ed. Most of the attachments are not working, so I have substituted direct links.

I haven't changed my mind since my post above. :) I still think J2 in Italy is at the earliest very late Neolithic, but most probably Bronze Age and later and mediated through the Balkans and Greece, including the Greek Islands.

If the Etruscan elite were from the eastern Aegean, that would have made an impact in Toscana/northern Lazio, and through the Etruscans into central northern Italy, while the coastal regions of Liguria/Venezia would have been impacted by Greek and Etruscan traders in the west, and Greek traders and Balkanites in the east. Liguria and Venezia(and south along the coast) were also the northern Italian regions that held out the longest against the Barbarian tribes and were part of the lingering presence of Byzantium. (This is the briefest of sketches about the history, but I don't want to drone on about the history for those members who might be interested.)

I'm sure this is old news to you, and some of our Greek members may know of more accurate representations, but these can give a general idea, I think.
Greece and its colonies in 550 B.C.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/AntikeGriechen1.jpg

This groups the Greek settlements of southern Italy by area of origin in the original Greek lands:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Magna_Graecia_ancient_colonies_and_dialects.svg/1088px-Magna_Graecia_ancient_colonies_and_dialects.svg.pn g
The orange areas are Doric, the brown NW Greek, the grey is Achaean, and the purple is Ionian.

These are the corresponding areas in the homeland:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/AncientGreekDialects_%28Woodard%29.svg/1218px-AncientGreekDialects_%28Woodard%29.svg.png

This shows the various colonizations of the late Metal Ages, all of them probably bearing some J2:
It's an excellent map, imo, but too large to load directly. However, you just need to click on the link.
(Could an administrator load it?)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Ancient_colonies.PNG

The Etruscan League:
http://www.roebuckclasses.com/102/maps/etruscancities.jpg

Then you can add in some slaves from Greece (highly prized as they were very civilized) and from Asia Minor, some of whom must have left their genetic trace, although one must always deal with the IBD analysis of Ralph and Coop that anything after about 400 B.C. had a minimum impact, at least in most of Italy. (See Ralph and Coop et al)

The Byzantine empire in Italy at its height under Justinian:
http://blossomingbyzantine.yolasite.com/resources/byzantine-empire.gif


Italy after the Lombard invasions. The Lombards first entered Italy in 568AD.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/99/Alboin%27s_Italy.svg/855px-Alboin%27s_Italy.svg.png

It lasted much longer in a sliver near Venice and in the south, coming to an end in the south only with the Muslim invasions.

Byzantine territorial losses:
6590

Sile
30-08-14, 21:50
Okay, but when and how did so much J2 end up in Europe? It hasn't been found in Neolithic sites, and yet the levels of J2 in Italy and it's distribution pattern suggests that it must have been present in Europe since at least the Bronze Age, if not before. Why is there so much J2 in northern Italy? Except for an ambiguous finding among the Corded Ware folk which was probably actually I rather than J, no J has been found in early Europe.

I agree, J2 is present in north-italy and alpine areas from ancient times. We see this from studies and Ftdna ALPGEN project

His language map is also wrong , it has no greek in southern Italy

Aberdeen
31-08-14, 03:43
I haven't changed my mind since my post above. :) I still think J2 in Italy is at the earliest very late Neolithic, but most probably Bronze Age and later and mediated through the Balkans and Greece, including the Greek Islands.

.......



I guess that's the only explanation that makes sense to me. Although J2 in Greece as a whole is only 19%, I notice that it's 34% in Crete, which probably has a population that's closer to the DNA profile of pre migration period Greece than modern mainland Greece is. So, if Greece used to be higher in J2, all that colonization of the Italian peninsula for centuries would have resulted in a lot of J2 in Italy, and particularly in the most Greek colonized parts of Italy. But, as you suggested, the muslim invasions of southern Italy would have somewhat decreased the J2 in some of those areas of southern Italy that were previously heavily colonized by Greeks, reducing the J2 level in those areas as compared to other heavily Greek colonized parts of Italy. I guess it all fits.

John Doe
31-08-14, 08:26
I guess that's the only explanation that makes sense to me. Although J2 in Greece as a whole is only 19%, I notice that it's 34% in Crete, which probably has a population that's closer to the DNA profile of pre migration period Greece than modern mainland Greece is. So, if Greece used to be higher in J2, all that colonization of the Italian peninsula for centuries would have resulted in a lot of J2 in Italy, and particularly in the most Greek colonized parts of Italy. But, as you suggested, the muslim invasions of southern Italy would have somewhat decreased the J2 in some of those areas of southern Italy that were previously heavily colonized by Greeks, reducing the J2 level in those areas as compared to other heavily Greek colonized parts of Italy. I guess it all fits.
Hey, don't forget that at least legally, Crete is part of Greece (correct me if I'm wrong). Also, I wouldn't be surprised if mainland Greeks were influenced by populations that Greek islanders weren't influenced by (such as the Mycenaeans or the Slavic migration). However, according to Anthropol Anz. 2014 the craniofacial morphology in modern and ancient Greeks indicates elements of ethnic group continuation within the unavoidable multicultural mixtures.
Link: http://dienekes.blogspot.co.il/2014/08/craniofacial-morphology-of-greeks.html

Angela
31-08-14, 17:17
Hey, don't forget that at least legally, Crete is part of Greece (correct me if I'm wrong). Also, I wouldn't be surprised if mainland Greeks were influenced by populations that Greek islanders weren't influenced by (such as the Mycenaeans or the Slavic migration). However, according to Anthropol Anz. 2014 the craniofacial morphology in modern and ancient Greeks indicates elements of ethnic group continuation within the unavoidable multicultural mixtures.
Link: http://dienekes.blogspot.co.il/2014/08/craniofacial-morphology-of-greeks.html


The history of Crete and the Greek mainland are inextricably intertwined. I don't think it's much of an exaggeration to say that there would have been no Mycenaean civilization without the influence of Crete, for one thing. Specifically to your point, however, the Mycenaeans around the middle of the 15th century BC conquered Crete, marking the end of Minoan thalassocracy.

I am personally quite sceptical about a lot of this internet chatter trying to draw hard and fast distinctions between different parts of Greece based on an extremely small number of samples, particularly when some of those samples seem to be drawn from perhaps not terribly representative areas of Greece. A study gathering uniparental and more importantly autosomal data from all areas of Greece, and controlled so that each person tested has all four grandparents from that specific geographic area has yet to be done, to my knowledge.

Until then, all these comments about how different islanders (and which islanders?) are from "mainland" Greeks is rather premature in my opinion. Not to mention that it's important to know what areas of the "mainland" are being discussed. Are the areas in the far north different from the Peleponessus? What about the areas in the north heavily colonized by returning Anatolian and Pontic Greeks? Greeks from Athens, given that they are drawn from all parts of Greece would have to be heavily screened for regional background it seems to me. (That's why Italian samples are never drawn from Rome or Milano, for example.)

Angela
31-08-14, 18:02
I guess that's the only explanation that makes sense to me. Although J2 in Greece as a whole is only 19%, I notice that it's 34% in Crete, which probably has a population that's closer to the DNA profile of pre migration period Greece than modern mainland Greece is. So, if Greece used to be higher in J2, all that colonization of the Italian peninsula for centuries would have resulted in a lot of J2 in Italy, and particularly in the most Greek colonized parts of Italy. But, as you suggested, the muslim invasions of southern Italy would have somewhat decreased the J2 in some of those areas of southern Italy that were previously heavily colonized by Greeks, reducing the J2 level in those areas as compared to other heavily Greek colonized parts of Italy. I guess it all fits.

I think I was more cogent in post #163. :)

As I said there, it wouldn't at all surprise me if a Neolithic European sample turns up that bears a J2 lineage. However, as more and more time passes without one turning up, (as also indicated by the rather cryptic notes that have turned up about upcoming papers about Varna and other parts of the Balkans) I do think it looks like, for whatever reason, it is probably at the earliest Copper Age, and probably Bronze Age and later. Or, more likely, different clades arrived at different times. (All the interest has been in the "R" lineages, so we have very little data about specific J2 lineages.)

The vector for Italy has to be, in my opinion, the Balkans and Greece. As for the fact that in the Boattini study some of the central Italian areas, notably Umbria, have levels even a bit higher than some areas in the south, I think that may in part be a function of the fact that good as it is, the authors used very small samples. It's also helpful to look at the Eupedia map, which has the benefit of drawing on many studies.

6591

You can see that the percentages in some areas of the south are very similar to those of Crete, while others are similar to those of the Peleponessus. (In this regard, if I said somewhere that I think that the Moorish invasions left even enough y lineages to significantly change the distribution pattern in the south, then I was wrong, or at least not sufficiently precise. To the best of my recollection the specifically Berber lineages and the "Semitic" J1 lineages combined account for at most 4-6% of the total, even in Sicily, depending on the area.)

I've given some thought to that unusual amount of J2 on the Adriatic side of Italy even into the center, and I think the explanation lies in gene flow not only directly from Greece, but also from the coastal Balkans. The fact that it has been so diminished in Slovenia and Croatia, for example, may be due to the Slavic migrations, (R1a and probably I2a) which are obscuring the pattern of the flow. A similar thing is happening in northwestern Italy, where that mass of U152 is like a wedge changing prior patterns. (Of course, this is all rather imperfectly correlated with autosomal dna.)

The following is sheer speculation. However, I think it is interesting to consider these y lineages in terms of their correlation with the EEF/ANE/WHG formulation of Lazaridis et al based upon ancient genomes. If I had to guess, I would say that the J2 bearing people might have been a combination of EEF and ANE, and that what ANE exists in southern and central Italy is in part a result of those migrations. For one thing, J2 seems to have a Kurdish or Iranian or at least eastern Anatolian origin, and they are an ANE bearing people.

Yetos
31-08-14, 18:19
from an old search in a mountain clan in Greece seems I1 as palaiolithic, sardenian like etc etc.
.
G2a3a seems to be neolithic with J2, yet in Greece we do not have neolithic but epipalaiolithic.



could the difference among Neolithic and epipalaiolithic means something?

could Varna be a I1 culture?

Angela
31-08-14, 19:26
from an old search in a mountain clan in Greece seems I1 as palaiolithic, sardenian like etc etc.
.
G2a3a seems to be neolithic with J2, yet in Greece we do not have neolithic but epipalaiolithic.



could the difference among Neolithic and epipalaiolithic means something?



could Varna be a I1 culture?

I think perhaps you mean I2?

At any rate, somewhere on our site texts were published from someone in the audience during a presentation on ancient dna recovered from Varna and surrounding cultures, and it seems it was once again G2a. I apologize, but I don't remember the precise thread. Perhaps someone else can provide a link.

Of course, it's best if we wait for the actual paper.

joeyc
01-09-14, 14:14
I guess that's the only explanation that makes sense to me. Although J2 in Greece as a whole is only 19%, I notice that it's 34% in Crete, which probably has a population that's closer to the DNA profile of pre migration period Greece than modern mainland Greece is. So, if Greece used to be higher in J2, all that colonization of the Italian peninsula for centuries would have resulted in a lot of J2 in Italy, and particularly in the most Greek colonized parts of Italy. But, as you suggested, the muslim invasions of southern Italy would have somewhat decreased the J2 in some of those areas of southern Italy that were previously heavily colonized by Greeks, reducing the J2 level in those areas as compared to other heavily Greek colonized parts of Italy. I guess it all fits.

What muslim invasions are you talking about? Muslims barely left any Y-DNA beyond few spots here and there. Anyway most of J2 in Italy is non Greek. The dominant J2 subclade in Greece is almost completely absent in Italy, excluding for areas which were colonized by Greeks and Albanians (Eastern Sicily, Salento, Southern Calabria).

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b.gif

joeyc
01-09-14, 14:45
You can see that the percentages in some areas of the south are very similar to those of Crete, while others are similar to those of the Peleponessus. (In this regard, if I said somewhere that I think that the Moorish invasions left even enough y lineages to significantly change the distribution pattern in the south, then I was wrong, or at least not sufficiently precise. To the best of my recollection the specifically Berber lineages and the "Semitic" J1 lineages combined account for at most 4-6% of the total, even in Sicily, depending on the area.)

If you are talking about this study, no semitic J1 linage were sampled at all. All J1 linages are counted as "moorish" although they most likely predated Moors, Greeks,... by thousands of years.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/full/ejhg2008258a.html

Angela
01-09-14, 21:18
If you are talking about this study, no semitic J1 linage were sampled at all. All J1 linages are counted as "moorish" although they most likely predated Moors, Greeks,... by thousands of years.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/full/ejhg2008258a.html


You can take a look at the tables in the Supplementary Data section of Boattini et al, which divides the J1 in Italy into "J1e" and non J1e. One table also provides the strs. That one is by area.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441#pone.0 065441.s012

I agree that the presence of J1 in Italy has been misinterpreted. The vast majority of it is, from more recent data, Neolithic era. The erroneous conclusions were partly based, imo, on very glib interpretations of Italian history, as well as the fact that J1 was treated as a monolithic clade. It wasn't until it was more resolved that it became clear that there is extremely little "Semitic" ydna J1 in Italy.

That, of course, means that interpretations of the extent of Moorish genetic influence in Italy must be re-examined, as it would imply that it has either been vastly over estimated, or there were very few Arabs involved and it was mostly a Berber phenomenon.

Given that the levels of E-M81 (the so called "Berber" clade) in southern Italy are in the low single digits, my personal take away is that the Moorish influence has been over-estimated, and that what influence there was stemmed mainly from Berber settlement drawn from the coastal areas, although there was, according to historical analysis, an elite "Arabic" layer, which from the almost non-existent traces remaining, must have been very small, and/or went into exile. If you're interested in the history of Sicily, or southern Italy in general in terms of the Moorish conquests, I highly recommend the book, A History of Muslim Sicily, by Leonard C. Chiarelli, 2011. It's very long, but it is groundbreaking in its analysis.

Btw, I don't make any claims about how many of them actually settled in Sicily, in particular, because the historical evidence is extremely sketchy. It may be that they came in rather substantial numbers but that most of them were indeed expelled.

As to your comment to Aberdeen about J2, I would point out that J2b is not the only J2 y lineage. Grugni et al 2012 Figure 2 shows, in the first column, the distribution of a J1 clade as well as various J2 clades. (The second column shows variance)
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252#pone-0041252-g002

As to the topic of J2 in Italy generally, I think, as I speculated above (which is all any of us are doing) that some of it may indeed have a late Neolithic source from the Balkans, including Greece, and from Crete, or at least that wouldn't surprise me, but I would find it extraordinary if all of the Metal Ages movements from Crete, the other islands, and Greece proper into the mainland and Sicily did not impact those levels significantly, and that doesn't even take into account any possible, and I emphasize possible movement involved in the formation of the Etruscan culture in the Bronze Age by migrants from Anatolia or the eastern Aegean directly into Tuscany, should that ever be proven. (Although interestingly enough, Tuscany itself, based on the Boattini2 data as well as the composite data put together by Maciamo, is rather low in J2 compared to other areas.) Then there are inputs from Greek maritime trading on the coasts of Liguria and Venezia, and possible Byzantine era influences to be considered, although their input may have been extremely minor. There are also the population movements engineered by the Romans through the creation of veterans colonies in the north, which may have spread the J2 into those areas.
,
Therefore, as I said above, I think J2 frequency in Italy today is probably the result of numerous different layers of migration from the direction of the southeast, some perhaps from the late Neolithic, and some, perhaps more, which took place during the Metal Ages, a flow which also spread from the northern Mediterranean coastline into France and Iberia. Those Grugni graphics are pretty informative in that regard.

It's a mistake in my view to look at even J2a as a monolithic clade. Different sub-groups were, in my opinion, doubtlessly brought or spread at different times.

Only ancient dna will bring us closer to the answers. Modern distributions provide only hints, and are very difficult to interpret in any precise way.

joeyc
01-09-14, 22:45
Personally I fail to see how those haplogroups can be connected with Moorish settlements in mainland Italy.

Eupedia map of Y-Haplogroup E-M81.

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-M81.gif

Eupedia map of Y-Haplogroup J1.

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J1.gif



Frequency of Y-chromosome haplogroup J1e from Boattini et al. Table S1.

Area I = 0.6%
Area II = 0%
Area III = 6.9%
Area IV = 1.6%
Area V = 1.3%
Area VI = 1.5%
Area VII = 4.3%
Area VIII = 2.4%

http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/previews.figshare.com/1070124/preview_1070124.png

Also Albania/Greece and Southern Italy/Sicily have similar frequencies for the J2 haplogroup, but they mostly belong to 2 different subclades (J2b in the Balkans and J2a in Italy).

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg

RHAS
02-09-14, 21:07
Note! : Eupedia forum rule nr. 4. STAY ON TOPIC

"Avoid posting messages that are out of context or irrelevant to a topic. While we encourage your participation, such posts will either be moved to another forum or deleted in order to ensure a thread`s consistency. If you do want to write a post that is to off topic you can always start a new thread."

Topic = Haplogroup J2, Romans, Christianity and Viticulture. (And the relationship between them.)

RHAS
17-05-15, 04:07
Haplogroup J2, Romans, Christianity and Viticulture. (Italic Tribes)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/1236259_591804834211009_98755787_n.jpg?oh=943b5310 97c74b4976771304af2b552d&oe=55FE7BF7&__gda__=1439552283_84f12c94011895bc3e2c6a705e1ae09 9
Haplogroup J2 - Roman Republic.

"Romans surely helped spread haplogroup J2 across its borders, judging from the distribution of J2 within Europe (frequency over 5%) wich bears an uncanny resemblance to the borders of the Roman Empire."
Eupedia.com, 2013.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

https://scontent-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/10330406_751855728205918_5751958829207471782_n.jpg ?oh=4180e7daeb3c34bbeff924e8b868470d&oe=55C57666

"Wine making spread to Crete during the Minoan period and then later to Italy with the Etruscans and to Iberia with the Phoenicians. It was an integral component of the economy and social culture of the proto-greek civilizations and the phoenicians who both went on to settle other mediterranean coastal regions. And tracing the spread of Viticulture from its origins to its spread before the Roman period, we can see te highest levels of Haplogroup J2 today correlate with the geographical centres of all these civilizations. While viticulture may not represent the first wave of M172 migrants to Europe, M172 certainly played a strong role in bringing Viticulture to Europe with such civilizations as the Minoans, Greeks and Phoenicians."
M172 Blog - Correlations in the spread of Viticulture and Haplogroup J2, 2008.
http://m172.blogspot.nl/2008/10/corr...ticulture.html

Latini, Piceni, Grecani.

Latini 22.8%, Piceni 36.9%, Grecani Sal. 25.5% J2.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10917314_874262845965205_1727308394999232082_n.png ?oh=a04d70111d3e281c3f26078fdd590650&oe=55D16041&__gda__=1438742941_e1c1e1f31d36bde893db477d0f5bafd b

"The Latins (Latin: Latini) were an Italic tribe which included the early inhabitants of the city of Rome. From about 1000 BC, the Latins inhabited the small region known to the Romans as Old Latium (Latium Vetus), that is, the area between the river Tiber and the promontory of Mount Circeo 100 kilometres (62 mi) SE of Rome. The Latins were an Indo-European people who probably migrated into the Italian peninsula during the late Bronze Age (1200–900 BC). ... The Latins belonged to a group of Indo-European ("IE") tribes, conventionally known as the Italic tribes, that populated central and southern Italy during the Italian Iron Age (which began around 900 BC). The most common hypothesis is that the Italic peoples migrated into the Italian peninsula some time during the Italian Bronze Age (1800–900 BC). The most likely migration route was from the Balkan peninsula along the Adriatic coast"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latins_(Italic_tribe)

"The Picentes or Picentini (Ancient Greek: Πίκεντες, Πικεντῖνοι) were an Italic tribe who lived in Picenum in the northern Adriatic coastal plain of ancient Italy. The endonym, if any, and its language are not known for certain."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picentes

"Grecani Salentini is a Hellenic-speaking linguistic island of Salento, situated in southern Puglia, and consisting of nine municipalities in which a neo-Greek dialect, also known as Grecanic or Griko, is spoken. The origins of this linguistic island in Salentine Greece are uncertain. The German linguist G. Rohlfs proposed its origin in the Magna Graecia region; while O. Parlangeli suggests a Byzantine derivation of the Griki of Salento. Greek researchers (e.g. A. Karanastasis) claim the input of Byzantine elements in the pre-existing Magna Graecia matrix. The Greek arrival in the Salentine Peninsula occurred both in the Magna Graecia, and posterior Byzantine dominations."
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0050794

https://scontent-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10933932_874261305965359_6491772734791198150_n.jpg ?oh=a070fadc8494c03f0e5cdd44799e6ce5&oe=55D11AA0
Uniparental Markers of Contemporary Italian Population Reveals Details on Its Pre-Roman Heritage.http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0050794

"Gascony, at the opposite end of France, has unsurprisingly the lowest percentage of haplogroups associated with Greco-Danubian Neolithic farmers. Only J2 is present in relatively high number there, and the near absence of E, G and T suggest an early colonization from southern Greece (Crete?), or possibly by Romans from Central Italy."
Eupedia.com - Ancient Ancestry Project: Benelux & France.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/benelux_france_dna_project.shtml

https://scontent-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1910113_814943031897187_5769182610102820682_n.jpg? oh=97a8f0e60c34f5467502fc3ecf60d516&oe=55CC0EB7
Source: Tipologie europidi ©

"Under the ever-growing influence of the Italiote Greeks, the Romans acquired their own national origin-legend sometime during the early Republican era (500-300 BC). It was centred around the figure of Aeneas, a supposed Trojan survivor of the destruction of Troy by the Achaean Greeks, as related in the poet Homer's epic the Iliad (composed c. 800 BC)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latins_(Italic_tribe)


http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh72/gundalilama/RomulusEtRemus.jpg

"An earlier tradition that gave Romulus a distant ancestor in the semi-divine Trojan prince Aeneas was further embellished, and Romulus was made the direct ancestor of Rome's first Imperial dynasty. Possible historical bases for the broad mythological narrative remain unclear and disputed. The image of the she-wolf suckling the divinely fathered twins became an iconic representation of the city and its founding legend, making Romulus and Remus preeminent among the feral children of ancient mythography."
Romulus and Remus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Aeneas'_Flight_from_Troy_by_Federico_Barocci.jpg
Aeneas Flight from Troy by Federico Barocci.

"In Greco-Roman mythology, Aeneas (/ɪˈniːəs/; Greek: Αἰνείας, Aineías, possibly derived from Greek αἰνή meaning "praise") was a Trojan hero, the son of the prince Anchises and the goddess Aphrodite. His father was the second cousin of King Priam of Troy, making Aeneas Priam's second cousin, once removed. He is a character in Greek mythology and is mentioned in Homer's Iliad, and receives full treatment in Roman mythology as the legendary founder of what would become Ancient Rome, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid."
Aeneas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas

http://www.bergbook.com/images/17715-01.jpg
Map Aeneae Troiani Navigatio

http://www.daviddarling.info/images/journeys_of_Aeneas.jpg
Travels of Aeneas.

"J2a-M92 is a well-defined J2a-M67 sub-lineage, with a distribution restricted to Asia Minor, the Balkans and the north-eastern Mediterranean coasts. Frequency and variance maps make plausible an origin in north-western Turkey, where the highest variance is registered, and a subsequent migration to the Balkans and then to the Italian Peninsula."
Ancient Migratory Events in the Middle East: New Clues from the Y-Chromosome Variation of Modern Iranians.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...e-0041252-g002 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252#pone-0041252-g002)
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/1484149_625721860818512_1220889084_n.jpg?oh=c1f148 a3b966110d0f5c8b6f5c38e61b&oe=55C6D8F8

LeBrok
17-05-15, 05:01
https://scontent-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1910113_814943031897187_5769182610102820682_n.jpg? oh=97a8f0e60c34f5467502fc3ecf60d516&oe=55CC0EB7
Sorry, but this map is pathetic. First of all these haplogroups could be called Mesolithic or even Paleolithic. Secondly, Mesolithic is a time period, Mediterranei is a geographical location, and Indoeuropei is a cultural aspect. These shouldn't have been mixed together to represent population genetics.
The funniest thing is that just 2 samples from Sardinia makes it totally "Mesolithic", though we know by now that Sardinians are most Neolithic farmers like, therefore most "Mediterranei". I'm surprised that a person like you, with years of experiance around this subject, posts ridiculous map like this one. You should know better by now.

RHAS
17-05-15, 05:05
J2b and J2a1 Found in Roman Villa and Merovingian Graves Research.

"In addition, we attempted to characterize the Y haplogroupfor all (possible) male individuals, including the previous study. This was only possible for individuals 15 and 20, for who haplogroup J2 could be granted. With our method J2 can not be further subdivided. For individual 15 haplogroup J2a1 is predicted in the previous investigation on the basis of the Y-STR profile. Meanwhile, it can be refined to J2a1b (99% probability). For individual 20, based on the Y-STRprofiel haplogroup J2b is predicted (100% probability). In both cases the predicted haplogroups confirm typed haplogroups. Y-haplogroup J2 is carried by 2.7% of Dutch men and is relatively rare in the Netherlands."
Cultureel Erfgoed - Merovingers in een Villa 2.
http://cultureelerfgoed.nl/publicaties/merovingers-in-een-villa-2

https://scontent-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/1800276_920774417980714_3022873764887341363_n.jpg? oh=5ac7af681defb45c53910eadd37b1175&oe=55C2AC5A
http://cultureelerfgoed.nl/publicaties/merovingers-in-een-villa-2

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/11061681_10205108763251075_7903136601261774961_n.j pg?oh=688bd9a7483b865a06bb73a11c6e6907&oe=55D6494B&__gda__=1443511694_04c9ad9f955d081816cee2076a6e7df 0
http://cultureelerfgoed.nl/publicaties/merovingers-in-een-villa-2

Clues to their origins are the artifacts found in the graves. (late Roman early Merovngian pottery, Venus Aphrodite hangers, Avar like horse equipment that seems to be found in europe along the Danube and Rhine, allot of weaponry, Roman/Byzantine glass beads comparable tomodern day turkish ones, seashells from the mediteranean, red sea and indian ocean used for Apotropaeon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apotropaic_magic) The paper also mentiones one site at Daalderveld and the one at Pasestraat. The first one seems to be a site for foreigner and the latter one seems to be a site for locals. The J2`s are found in the local area. The paper mentiones that these people including individual 15 (j2a1b) come from an area geographically similar to Southern Limburg and that ultimatly their familyline may go back to outide europe. But at the time they were consdered locals. They also mention that these people were from areas in the Netherlands know as "dekzand gebieden". They also found non local horse remains who were given a warriors grave/ending with a sword stab throgh the hearth. The earliest found artifact from the site rare from 3400 B.C to 2500 B.C, on top of that a Roman Villa was build, in the rubblefield of the Roman Villa the grave field was created. (5th-6th A.D). There is evidence that the site was continualy inhabited from the Roman Villa era to the grave field construction. After the Merovingian period in the Karolingian period they stopped using the site.

The researchers state that the positioning of the burial field right on the main building of the Roman complex is meaningfull, for instance to make a claim of ownership on the land (considered to be from their ancestors) through a claim of ancestry of the previous inhabitants. (in this case romans) The villa was probably build in/around the 2nd century AD. it probably belonged to the Vicus of Maastricht (Mosa ad Trajectum)

More here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31121-Ydna-quot-J2-quot-found-in-Merovingian-era-graves-in-the-Netherlands

http://maastrichtvestingstad.nl/images/artikelfotos/mosa_ad_trajectum.jpg
Mosa ad Trajectum

The Roman Research Project of Leuven University reported last month;

"De allerhoogste genetische diversiteit vonden de onderzoekers in Tongeren. En dat heeft toch met Romeinse roots te maken, zij het meer praktisch: “Dankzij de goede wegen, de Romeinse heirbanen, had Tongeren veel contact met het Rijnland, Maastricht en Keulen.”"

"The highest genetic diversity the researchers found was situated in Tongeren. And that has to do with the Roman Roots, the reason is practical: "Thanks to the good roads, the roman via`s, Tongeren had allot of contact with the Rhineland, Maastricht and Koln."
Catholic University Leuven.
http://nieuws.kuleuven.be/node/14793?utm_source=Niet-onder-de-kerktoren&utm_medium=CKmail&utm_campaign=CKFeb-alumni

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/3394_473217516068948_508554809_n.jpg?oh=84c09865a2 04f4f18290ede65e603a37&oe=55C04520&__gda__=1443710057_a6828afdaf921d0920e25b3ba9b110a e
J2b2 Geno 2.0 Heatmap Comparison with Roman Settlements and Roads.

More here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29229-Phylogeographical-Analysis-of-the-J2b2-M241-Geno-2-0-Heatmap

"J2b2a-L283 was discovered by Family Tree DNA through its "Walk Through The Y" program, and is predominantly Middle-Eastern, Mediterranean and European. The M12/M241 frequency peak in the Balkan Peninsula and Italy observed by Semino et al. [35] and Cruciani et al. [45], may instead belong to sub-clade L283. A recent Z631 sub-branch expansion from east to west through the heart of Europe to the UK along with presence in Italy and Spain might be associated with Roman expansion using mercenaries and slaves acquired in the Balkans."
Generation of high-resolution a priori Y-chromosome phylogenies using "next-generation" sequencing data.
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2013/11/22/000802.1.full.pdf

https://scontent-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/v/t1.0-9/1150305_591299907594835_72728669_n.jpg?oh=1d4f6612 b33d48ae9970be7e7102ac78&oe=560476FD

"Romans surely helped spread haplogroup J2 across its borders, judging from the distribution of J2 within Europe (frequency over 5%) wich bears an uncanny resemblance to the borders of the Roman Empire."
Eupedia.com, 2013.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Aeneas'_Flight_from_Troy_by_Federico_Barocci.jpg
Aeneas Flight from Troy by Federico Barocci.

"In Greco-Roman mythology, Aeneas (/ɪˈniːəs/; Greek: Αἰνείας, Aineías, possibly derived from Greek αἰνή meaning "praise") was a Trojan hero, the son of the prince Anchises and the goddess Aphrodite. His father was the second cousin of King Priam of Troy, making Aeneas Priam's second cousin, once removed. He is a character in Greek mythology and is mentioned in Homer's Iliad, and receives full treatment in Roman mythology as the legendary founder of what would become Ancient Rome, most extensively in Virgil's Aeneid."
Aeneas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas

"The Frankish mythology that has survived in primary sources is comparable to that of the Aeneas and Romulus myths take in Roman mythology, but altered to suit Germanic tastes. Like many Germanic peoples, the Franks told a founding myth story to explain their connection with peoples of classical history. In the case of the Franks, these peoples were the Sicambri and the Trojans. An anonymous work of 727 called Liber Historiae Francorum states that following the fall of Troy, 12,000 Trojans led by chiefs Priam and Antenor moved to the Tanais (Don) river, settled in Pannonia near the Sea of Azov and founded a city called "Sicambria". In just two generations (Priam and his son Marcomer) from the fall of Troy (by modern scholars dated in the late Bronze Age) they arrive in the late 4th century AD at the Rhine. An earlier variation of this story can be read in Fredegar. In Fredegar's version an early king named Francio serves as namegiver for the Francs, just as Romulus has lent his name to Rome. .............. In contrast to many other Germanic tribes, no Merovingians claimed to be descended from Wodan. Instead, the sacred tradition of a cart pulled by bulls seems to be present from the early Merovingians on. The bulls that pulled the cart were taken as special animals, and according to Salian law the theft of those animals would impose a high sanction. In the grave of Childeric I (died 481) was found the head of a bull, craftily made out of gold.""
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankish_mythology

"There is a distinct association of ancient J2 civilisations with bull worship."
Eupedia.com, 2013.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/35/Quinotaur.jpg

"The Quinotaur (Lat. Quinotaurus) is a mythical sea creature mentioned in the 7th century Frankish Chronicle of Fredegar. Referred to as "bestea Neptuni Quinotauri similis", (the beast of Neptune which resembles a Quinotaur) it was held to have fathered Meroveus by attacking the wife of the Frankish king Chlodio and thus to have sired the line of Merovingian kings. The name translates from Latin as "bull with five horns", whose attributes have commonly been interpreted as the incorporated symbols of the sea god Neptune with his trident, and the horns of a mythical bull or Minotaur. The suggested rape and subsequent family relation of this monster attributed to Frankish mythology correspond to both the Indo-European etymology of Neptune (from PIE '*nepots', "grandson" or "nephew", compare also the Indo-Aryan 'Apam Napat', "grandson/nephew of the water") and to bull-related fertility myths in Greek mythology, where for example the Phoenician princess Europa was abducted by the god Zeus, in the form of a white bull, that swam her to Crete."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinotaur


Zeus and Europa

"In Greek mythology Europa (Greek Ευρώπη Eurṓpē) was a Phoenician woman of high lineage, from whom the name of the continent Europe has ultimately been taken. The story of her abduction by Zeus in the form of a white bull was a Cretan story; as Kerényi points out "most of the love-stories concerning Zeus originated from more ancient tales describing his marriages with goddesses. This can especially be said of the story of Europa".
Europa (Mythology)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(mythology)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKg8Fv9ydRM

Trojan Origin Myth.

https://scontent-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/v/t1.0-9/1003498_628020043922821_2086965139_n.jpg?oh=4b60c2 75745adeac13a62d541759d262&oe=55D004FD
"The Frankish mythology that has survived in primary sources is comparable to that of the Aeneas and Romulus myths take in Roman mythology, but altered to suit Germanic tastes. Like many Germanic peoples, the Franks told a founding myth story to explain their connection with peoples of classical history. In the case of the Franks, these peoples were the Sicambri and the Trojans. An anonymous work of 727 called Liber Historiae Francorum states that following the fall of Troy, 12,000 Trojans led by chiefs Priam and Antenor moved to the Tanais (Don) river, settled in Pannonia near the Sea of Azov and founded a city called "Sicambria". In just two generations (Priam and his son Marcomer) from the fall of Troy (by modern scholars dated in the late Bronze Age) they arrive in the late 4th century AD at the Rhine. An earlier variation of this story can be read in Fredegar. In Fredegar's version an early king named Francio serves as namegiver for the Francs, just as Romulus has lent his name to Rome."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankish_mythology

"Der niederrheinische Trojamythos schließt an die Schilderung Homers vom Ende des Trojanischen Krieges an. Das besagt, dass die von den Griechen besiegten Trojaner fliehen, und in mehreren Gruppen über Asien und Europa versprengt werden. Hier gründen sie neue Städte und werden zu Stammvätern neuer, ruhmreicher Völker. Die bis heute existente niederrheinische Variante des Trojamythos indes spiegelt die Gründungssage des Frankenreichs, die Origio francorum wider. Als Vorbild diente der römische Trojamythos, wie er in Vergils Aeneis überliefert ist."
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niederrheinischer_Trojamythos

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asciburgium

"The two earliest sources that describe the origin of the Franks are a 7th-century work known as the Chronicle of Fredegar and the anonymous Liber Historiae Francorum, written a century later. Neither of these works are accepted by historians as trustworthy, compared with Gregory of Tours's Historia Francorum, which was written in the 6th century. The author of the Chronicle of Fredegar claimed that the Franks came originally from Troy and quoted the works of Vergil and Hieronymous, but the Franks are not mentioned in those works, except in a general way by Hieronymous.[14] The chronicle describes Priam as a Frankish king whose people migrated to Macedonia after the fall of Troy. In Macedonia, the Franks then divided. The European Franks reached Francia under King Francio, just as Romulus went to Rome. Another branch, under King Turchot, became the Turks. Fredegar stated that Theudemer, named king of the Franks by Gregory, was descended from Priam, Friga and Francio. Another work, the Gesta, is nowadays acknowledged by serious scholars as a fantasy. Its author described how 12,000 Trojans, led by Priam and Antenor, sailed from Troy to the River Don in Russia and—with a total disregard of geography—to Pannonia, which is on the Danube, settling near the Sea of Azov. There they founded a city called Sicambria. The Trojans joined the Roman army in accomplishing the task of driving their enemies into the marshes of Mæotis, for which they received the name of Franks (meaning "savage"). A decade later the Romans killed Priam and drove away Marcomer and Sunno, the sons of Priam and Antenor, and the other Franks."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks

"An anonymous work of 727 called Liber Historiae Francorum states that following the fall of Troy, 12,000 Trojans led by chiefs Priam and Antenor moved to the Tanais (Don) river, settled in Pannonia near the Sea of Azov and founded a city called Sicambria. In just 2 generations from the fall of Troy (by modern scholars dated in the late Bronze Age 1550-1200 BC) they arrived in the late 4th century AD at the Rhine. A variation of this story can also be read in Fredegar, and similar tales continue to crop up repeatedly throughout obscure, mediaeval-era European literature. ... In Roman and Merovingian times, it was a custom to declare panegyrics. These poetic declarations were held for fun or propaganda to entertain guests and please rulers. Those panegyrics played an important role in the transmission of culture. One of the ritual customs of these poetic declarations is the use of archaic names for contemporary things. Romans were often called Trojans, and Salian Franks were called Sicambri."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicambri


"The J2f-M67 clade is localized to Northwest Turkey. It is well known that during this period, Northwest Anatolia developed a complex society that engaged in widespread Aegean trade referred to as "Maritime Troia culture," involving both the western Anatolian mainland and several of the large islands in the eastern Aegean, Chios, Lemnos and Lesbos (Korfmann 1996)."
Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia.
http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Cinnioglu2004.pdf

"2.1. The Maritime Troy Culture.The coastline of the North Aegean and the costal regions of the Marmara Sea were determined as the area of distribution of the “Maritime Troy Culture”, which encompasses the first three settlement phases of Troy from c. 2920 to 2200 BC (KORFMANN 2006:4). In more general terms this is the period of the Early Bronze Age (EBA)"
http://tobias-lib.uni-tuebingen.de/v...ss_Guendem.pdf

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1264211_598415363549956_1173191371_o.jpg


Two J2a and one J2b in Limburg. There is a much higher chance that these are Roman rather than Frankish.

LeBrok
17-05-15, 05:11
J2b and J2a1 Found Roman Villa and Merovingian Graves.


I know why! Because it was a Roman villa and obviously there was a Roman vineyard too. As you know Roman J2 guys planted this vineyard thousand of years before, lived there and died there. It is so obvious that whoever is found there by this Roman Villa must be J2. It makes so much sense!

Sile
17-05-15, 06:45
https://scontent-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/v/t1.0-9/1150305_591299907594835_72728669_n.jpg?oh=1d4f6612 b33d48ae9970be7e7102ac78&oe=560476FD





The bottom map is wrong, the alps where not conquered by the Romans until 15BC ..................Gaul was conquered and Britain invaded before the Romans entered the Alps.

Middle Illyrian was not taken until 9BC , another error

who gives you these maps?

RHAS
17-05-15, 07:19
The bottom map is wrong, the alps where not conquered by the Romans until 15BC ..................Gaul was conquered and Britain invaded before the Romans entered the Alps.

Middle Illyrian was not taken until 9BC , another error

who gives you these maps?



Greco-Roman spheres of influence and Haplogroup J2.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/1074318_623171751074317_1544350417_o.jpg
Left: The geographic space over which Classical Greek and Latin served as a lingua franca in antiquity. Right: Y-DNA Haplogroup Frequency map of J2-M172.

"Romans surely helped spread haplogroup J2 across its borders, judging from the distribution of J2 within Europe (frequency over 5%) wich bears an uncanny resemblance to the borders of the Roman Empire."
Eupedia.com, 2013.

"The propagation of J2b and E V-13 correspond roughly to the ancient Greek and Roman spheres of influence."
Eupedia.com, 2013.

"The ancient Greeks and Phoenicians were the main driving forces behind the spread of J2 around the western and southern Mediterranian"
Eupedia.com, 2013.

"Di Giacomo stressed the role of post-Neolithic migratory phenomenon, specifically that of the Ancient Greeks, as also being important in the dispersal of haplogroup J-M172."
Wikipedia.org - Haplogroup J2-M172, 2013. can you check your language map as I want to know what about greek influence in pontic black sea area ( eastern side) and the italian south?


This map actually came from a website called, Center of Hellenic Studies from Harvard University.
It was featured in an article with the name, Greek, Latin and a Global Dialogue among Civilizations.
http://chs.harvard.edu/wa/pageR?tn=ArticleWrapper&bdc=12&mn=4827

More Roman Republic here: https://www.google.nl/search?q=expansion+roman+republic&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=QBZYVcRC66nsBrLzg4AL&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=623

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/1236259_591804834211009_98755787_n.jpg?oh=943b5310 97c74b4976771304af2b552d&oe=55FE7BF7&__gda__=1439552283_84f12c94011895bc3e2c6a705e1ae09 9

"Romans surely helped spread haplogroup J2 across its borders, judging from the distribution of J2 within Europe (frequency over 5%) wich bears an uncanny resemblance to the borders of the Roman Empire."
Eupedia.com, 2013.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

Sile
17-05-15, 08:51
More Roman Republic here: https://www.google.nl/search?q=expansion+roman+republic&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=QBZYVcRC66nsBrLzg4AL&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=623

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/1236259_591804834211009_98755787_n.jpg?oh=943b5310 97c74b4976771304af2b552d&oe=55FE7BF7&__gda__=1439552283_84f12c94011895bc3e2c6a705e1ae09 9

tell them to go to school again.........Augustus did not conquer the 45 alpine tribes until 15 BC

They are putting out a propoganda map, hoping people will believe the following maps for the area they produce .....OR they are TOO lazy to investigate what tribes where in the alps while the Romans where to the south

either way, they are idiots

RHAS
17-05-15, 10:33
Greco-Roman spheres of influence and Haplogroup J2.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/1074318_623171751074317_1544350417_o.jpg
Left: The geographic space over which Classical Greek and Latin served as a lingua franca in antiquity. Right: Y-DNA Haplogroup Frequency map of J2-M172.

"Romans surely helped spread haplogroup J2 across its borders, judging from the distribution of J2 within Europe (frequency over 5%) wich bears an uncanny resemblance to the borders of the Roman Empire."
Eupedia.com, 2013.

"The propagation of J2b and E V-13 correspond roughly to the ancient Greek and Roman spheres of influence."
Eupedia.com, 2013.

"The ancient Greeks and Phoenicians were the main driving forces behind the spread of J2 around the western and southern Mediterranian"
Eupedia.com, 2013.

"Di Giacomo stressed the role of post-Neolithic migratory phenomenon, specifically that of the Ancient Greeks, as also being important in the dispersal of haplogroup J-M172."
Wikipedia.org - Haplogroup J2-M172, 2013.

https://scontent-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/10574476_795718893819601_7691432219553642064_n.jpg ?oh=d69a973b275513d299e808341db02624&oe=55D4289E

Source: Massachusetts Institute of Technology - MIT.edu © (http://web.mit.edu/course/21/21h.580/www/timesatlas/p26_1.jpg)

LeBrok
17-05-15, 17:42
More Roman Republic here: https://www.google.nl/search?q=expansion+roman+republic&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=QBZYVcRC66nsBrLzg4AL&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1366&bih=623



"Romans surely helped spread haplogroup J2 across its borders, judging from the distribution of J2 within Europe (frequency over 5%) wich bears an uncanny resemblance to the borders of the Roman Empire."
Eupedia.com, 2013.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

It seems, but perhaps only seems. We need to explain why Italo-Celtic Y DNA failed to spread around Roman Empire, the way J2 did, supposedly.

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Celtic_Europe.gif

RHAS
30-06-15, 02:29
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/11200810_919185741472121_4916757383376213045_n.jpg ?oh=a5c9d0cd485236d75359a1b6b8e6a2ce&oe=561BA111

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/11403269_919186008138761_5681263096566334429_n.jpg ?oh=201831a70f9a081c5793324eb096327f&oe=562875B0

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11698566_919186331472062_2454085159394221803_n.jpg ?oh=36a2f32eeab9d1ca42fce297feb7f51d&oe=56259871

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11698788_919188094805219_430935400820252298_n.jpg? oh=e970b528a7002f3f053216056759f2e4&oe=562131D7

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/11329936_900750209982341_8811654036335289256_n.jpg ?oh=cb2f85b31cd7c638473821c962741e3f&oe=56146842

LeBrok
30-06-15, 02:46
Could you explain why Roman Empire was so great spreading J2 but faild to spread Celto-Iralic hgs? I din't catch you the first time...
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Celtic_Europe.gif

Vukodav
30-06-15, 09:57
ROFL that map. Iberia is rich in Vasconic DF27, which is almost non existent north of the Spain. Maciamo and its theories is very funny.

LeBrok
30-06-15, 18:29
ROFL that map. Iberia is rich in Vasconic DF27, which is almost non existent north of the Spain. Maciamo and its theories is very funny. The map is based on scientific data.

Salmon
20-09-15, 08:18
J2's in Italy arrived a long time after the founding of the Roman Empire. Before the Punic Wars the Romans weren't great sailors.

The Italian peninsula was attracted a lot of people from all over the Empire. The Romans had civil wars once in a while and the Romans would Latinize non-Etruscan/non-Italian people.

The Christianization of Rome could have attracted Christian converts to the Middle East and North Africa to Rome.

There was also Hannibal and Roman relations with Carthiginians. Romans did absorb Carthage and vast parts of the middle east. Carthage was very important, specially in the Christian era. The Carthiginians were descendants of Phoenicians, in modern day Lebanon. This is where some J2s in Italy may come from, ancient sailors who went back and forth from North Africa to Italy.

After the Romans conquered Carthage, they probably didn't let those experienced North African J2 sailors go to waste and absorbed them into the merchant fleets and navy.

RHAS
22-01-16, 05:30
"Here we report nine ancient genomes (~1 ×) of individuals from northern Britain: seven from a Roman era York cemetery, bookended by earlier Iron-Age and later Anglo-Saxon burials. ... Strikingly, one Roman skeleton shows a clear signal of exogenous origin, with affinities pointing towards the Middle East, confirming the cosmopolitan character of the Empire, even at its northernmost fringes. ... Sample 3DRIF-26, on the other hand, despite belonging to the same burial context, presented a lineage consistent with haplogroup J2-L228, which has a modern distribution centred on the Middle East, but which is also present in the Caucasus region, the Balkans and Italy."
Genomic signals of migration and continuity in Britain before the Anglo-Saxons.
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/160119/ncomms10326/full/ncomms10326.html

"Sample 3DRIF26 is clearly an exception, both in terms of autosomal variation as in the Ychromosome lineage it presents (J2), common in the Middle East, Caucasus, Balkans and Italy and attributed to neolithic demic migrations or to seafaring Phoenicians."
Genomic signals of migration and continuity in Britain before the Anglo-Saxons - Supplementary Figures.
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/160119/ncomms10326/extref/ncomms10326-s1.pdf

"The fact that multiple isotopic proxies (Sr, O, C, N) for 3DRIF26 appear consistent with the same general area, Lower Egypt, should not be misunderstood as a secure assignation of origin, however, especially given that reference values used are not from the Roman period and comparative data from other regions (such as arid parts of the Levant or Eastern Syria) that would provide a good fit on theoretical grounds, are not currently available. The similarities should therefore rather be taken as evidence for the kind of environment in which 3DRIF26 spent his childhood than as a positive identification of the area of origin."
Genomic signals of migration and continuity in Britain before the Anglo-Saxons - Supplementary Figures.
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/160119/ncomms10326/extref/ncomms10326-s1.pdf

"Scientists reveal that headless men believed to be gladiators have descendants in Wales – and one hailed from Middle East"
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/19/origins-of-yorks-decapitated-romans-traced-by-genome-technology

"The savagery of gladiatorial battles was depicted as Channel 4 investigated the discovery of 80 skeletons at a York archaeological dig. As reported in The Press, the 80 skeletons, the majority of large, powerfully-built men dating from Roman times, were found at a dig in Driffield Terrace, Holgate."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-LpbKyhBC4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-LpbKyhBC4

Full documentary: http://watchdocumentary.org/watch/gladiators-back-from-the-dead-video_13d4008d0.html

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Jean-Leon_Gerome_Pollice_Verso.jpg

RHAS
12-05-18, 12:02
"The lineage defined by rs779180992, belonging to J2b-M205, and dated at 4–4.5 kya, has a radically different distribution, with derived alleles in Continental Italy, Greece and Northern Turkey, and two instances in a Palestinian and a Jew. The interpretation of the spread of this lineage is not straightforward. Tentative hypotheses are linked to Southward movements that occurred in the Balkan Peninsula from the Bronze Age, through the Roman occupation and later."
A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-25912-9

RHAS
08-11-19, 15:41
Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6466/708
https://ibb.co/bzQ8XS1
https://ibb.co/bzQ8XS1https://i.ibb.co/BqcSBXL/Image2.jpghttps://ibb.co/bzQ8XS1

We generated whole-genome data for 127 ancient individuals from 29 archaeological sites in Rome and central Italy Fig. 1 (https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6466/708.full#F1) and table S1).

A 10,000-year transect of Roman populations
Rome wasn't built (or settled) in a day. Antonio et al. performed an ancestral DNA analysis to investigate the genetic changes that occurred in Rome and central Italy from the Mesolithic into modern times. By examining 127 Roman genomes and their archaeological context, the authors demonstrate a major ancestry shift in the Neolithic between hunter gatherers and farmers. A second ancestry shift is observed in the Bronze Age, likely coinciding with trade and an increased movement of populations. Genetic changes track the historical changes occurring in Rome and reflect gene flow from across the Mediterranean, Europe, and North Africa over time. … Ancient Rome was the capital of an empire of ~70 million inhabitants, but little is known about the genetics of ancient Romans. Here we present 127 genomes from 29 archaeological sites in and around Rome, spanning the past 12,000 years. We observe two major prehistoric ancestry transitions: one with the introduction of farming and another prior to the Iron Age. By the founding of Rome, the genetic composition of the region approximated that of modern Mediterranean populations. During the Imperial period, Rome’s population received net immigration from the Near East, followed by an increase in genetic contributions from Europe. These ancestry shifts mirrored the geopolitical affiliations of Rome and were accompanied by marked interindividual diversity, reflecting gene flow from across the Mediterranean, Europe, and North Africa.
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6466/708

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/suppl/2019/11/06/366.6466.708.DC1/aay6826_Antonio_SM.pdf

17 J2 and 3 J-M304 possibly J2 of 78 samples with Y-chr data! (J2a, J2b, J, J1 etc. About 50% of total samples in the Roman Imperial Age.)

https://www.facebook.com/cultural.anthropology.of.haplogroup.j2/photos/a.472518266139667/2653341351390670/?type=3&theater

https://i.ibb.co/x7ZbmsH/12901214-1064198103637550-3101639088340998938-o.jpg