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Maciamo
25-08-13, 18:07
I had meant to make this map one and a half years ago, but postponed it then forgot. The Gedrosian admixture of the Dodecad's K=12b is quite interesting because it probably represents an ancestral genetic component linked to the propagation of R1b lineages. In all likelihood haplogroup R originated in southern central Asia during the Upper Palaeolithic, where it split into three branches: R1a to the north, the R1b towards Iran and eastern Anatolia, and R2 towards the Hindu Kush. R1b lingered for many millennia around modern Iran and Armenia, before crossing over the Caucasus and bring bronze working to the Pontic-Caspian Steppe. R1b can therefore be seen as a lineage of "Gedrosian" origin.

What is amazing is that its distribution in Europe matches almost exactly that of R1b, although to a reduced proportion of roughly 1 to 5 (or up to 1 to 10 in eastern Spain). This can be explained by the progressive dilution of Gedrosian genes as R1b fathers got children with indigenous women as they moved from the Black Sea region to the Danube basin, then to Germany and ultimately to Western Europe.

Iberia has the lowest ratio of Gedrosian admixture to R1b percentage because it is the furthest from the source (along with Britain and Ireland) and the last part of Europe to be heavily settled by R1b (contrarily to Britain and Ireland). Indeed, the Bronze Age did not reach Iberia before 1800 BCE, and didn't spread to the whole peninsula until 1300 BCE, nearly one millennium after the British Isles. Most of Iberia took much longer to become truly Indo-Europeanised (something I have explained here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28933-New-map-of-R1b-DF27-%28SRY2627-M153%29?p=413565&viewfull=1#post413565)).

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Gedrosian-admixture.gif (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/autosomal_maps_dodecad.shtml#Gedrosian)


Note that I have had to guess that Bosnians had less than 1% of Gedrosian because they have the lowest percentage of R1b in Europe along with the Finns. There was no Bosnian sample listed, but if anybody knows a Bosnian who joined the Dodecad project that would be of great help to confirm this.

Goga
25-08-13, 20:37
Thanks! But Kurds (descendants of the ancient Iranic Medes) have as much of this so called Gedrosian autosomal admixture as Persians (descendants of the ancient Iranic Persians). Around 30%! So Kurdistan area is even more darker brown. Also there is a lot of this component in Pakistan. And there is not much of R1b in that area, but much more R1a and J2a. So according to me this component is linked to R1* (or even R*) that was influenced by West Asian J2a! Because the Gedrosia component is the descendant of the West Asian component.

Fire Haired
25-08-13, 23:41
This makes alot of sense thanks for making the map but i wish u could include more than Europe and small areas of north Africa and mid east. It seems like Gedrosian gets higher in Iran but we cant see how far it go's. Do u think this comes from the first R1b people in central Asia. Since R and R1 were orignalley Mongliod i guess they inter married with Caucasians in Iran area then it formed into R1b and Gedorsian is a Caucasian group which then formed with mongliod R1 into R1b so were ever R1b went Gedorsian went to. R1b L23 which is the father of Germanic Italo Celtic R1b L51 is pretty much the only R1b around Antolia, Caucasus, and northern Iraq and i think it is pretty popular like 10-20%. But Gedorsian it almost as popular in west Europe as in those areas.

Wouldnt the R1b people that migrated from north mid east to the Steppes or south east Europe have more mid eastern groups that are popular in that area than Gedorsian. Why dont we see those in western Europe. Some how probably in the early Bronze age a almost 100% R1b L23 people got into Europe probably the steppes. Then some how got to west Europe and formed into R1b L51. Some of this does not make sense if R1b in west Europe orignalley came from the caucus why is R1b in those areas less popular than in west Europe. Why would there be a almost 100% R1b people why did they not mix on the paternal side. Why did R1a1a1 M417 which had been seperated by the R1b lineage for over 20,00 years also spread with Indo European languages. Both R1a and R1b should be extremely rare why did two almost fully R1b and R1a groups from randomley around the late Neloithic and Bronze age then spread Indo European languages. I always thought that R1a and R1b were connected that is why they both spread with Indo European languages but i guess it was random.

Also why did Balto Slavic and Indo Iranian languages spread with nearly 100% R1a1a1 M417 people then Germanic Italo Celts with nearly 100% R1b L51 people. Both were Indo Europeans at some point they had to interact and inter marry why did both stay pure on the paternal side. I think this is difinetly liget that the this was carried with R1b to west europe but we cant say for sure. When i was looking at the globe13 test i saw that the group they called med was more popular west of poland and was distributed very similar to this but it seems med was spread by Neolithic farmers with Y DNa G2a based on their results on the globe13 test compared to hunter gathers. What about red hair it seems it also is distributed in a similar way to R1b in west europe. Where the heck did the red hair come from if the R1b traveled through the Caucus to southern Ukriane to the Balkans were red hair is non existent today.

Carlos
26-08-13, 01:24
5990

In mainland Southeast millareses groups gave way to Argaric that developed mainly in the provinces of Almería, Granada and Murcia, but also in the border areas. Is characterized by raised above cabezos towns or inaccessible hills, many fortifications and larger than in the previous stage. Their homes are usually roughly rectangular floor and on the floors or walls the dead were deposited, becoming simultaneously in homes and cemeteries. Agriculture and livestock played a key role, as well as metallurgy, by which manufactured weapons and luxury items of copper, silver, gold and bronze social status granted to their holders. The control of raw materials and metallurgy led to a clear social stratification that led to the establishment of the headquarters, which, according to some authors, became nascent state.

Fire Haired
26-08-13, 02:37
Maciamo since ur map does not show this i would like to know were Gedrosian is most popular and where it probably originated. It seems like it is most popular around Iran which could mean R1b orignalley came from around Iran. I would guess it then migrated and became very popular around Eastern antolia, northern Iraq, and Caucus. Then some how got to western europe and it still kept Gedorsian genes everywere heavily R1b people settled. It would make the most sense that r1b went straight from Antolia, northern Iraq, Caucus area to west Europe. Because R1b L23 is so popular there and it is the father of west European specific R1b L51. I know that R1b L51 almost defintley were Indo Europeans probably proto Germanic Italo Celtic speakers. So saying they migrated out of Iraq or Anatolia 6,000ybp makes no sense because it does not seem anyone spoke a Indo European language there at that time. All the Indo European stuff was happening in Russia, Ukraine, and north Caucus.

I think that R1b L23 went straight from Antolia Caucus-Steppes or east Europe - west europe. I dont think R1b P297 went to the steppes then became R1b M269 then migrated to southeast Europe became R1b L23 then migrated to west europe from there like u say in ur R1b migration map. Because how do u explain that R1b L23 is almost the only R1b subclade around Anatolia, Iraq, and caucus and is pretty popular. I dont think it originated in southeast Europe. Maybe i got some of my facts wrong if u give me some strong evidence R1b L23 originated in southeast Europe i might change my opinion. R1b in west europe id efintley from a migration out of the north mid east into Europe just 6,000-8,000ybp then to west europe 5,000ybp. So if the R1b in west Europe has originally a mid eastern origin then why does it show such strong connections with red hair. Was it a group of Europeans they inter married with in the steppes or somewhere else in east Europe were the red hair is from that would probably make the most sense.

This reminds me on when i was looking at the globe13 results there were over 200 population examples they gave. I saw that Indo Iranian ethnic groups have higher amounts of north euro(Paleolithic European or just the European group) than non Indo Iranians like Assyrians and Samaritans. Not a surprise that Indo Iranians's R1a1a1b2 Z93 ancestors R1a1a1b and R1a1a1 both most likley originated in eastern Europe. Also very ancient remains with R1a1a in central asia like tarium mummies and adronovo people were obviously European all types of DNA and their features proved that. I bet we can do this with other people like Finnish and other Uralic speakers with N1c1 have much higher amounts of Mongliod aust dna than other Europeans.

I wonder since R and R1 were orignalley Mongliod or at least their father P was. If we can find some type of small Mongliod aust dna in all majorly hg R people. Then compare that Mongliod blood to modern Mongliod groups and we can get an idea of what type of Mongliod hg R comes from. I think it comes fro Native American-Artic type because R's brother Q is almost the sole haplogroup of Native Americans and is extremely popular in Arctic people in Canada and Greenland it is also very popular in central Siberia. Also i have seen many sources say some Native Americans and Siberians have R1*.

Silesian
26-08-13, 03:13
Maciamo since ur map does not show this i would like to know were Gedrosian is most popular and where it probably originated.
It peaks in Brahui and Baloche, Brahui are Dravidian and 39% R1a so there is no connection with autosomal and ydna.


It seems like it is most popular around Iran which could mean R1b orignalley came from around Iran.

Some have placed it there.


All the Indo European stuff was happening in Russia, Ukraine, and north Caucus.
Is this personal opinion?



I saw that Indo Iranian ethnic groups have higher amounts of north euro(Paleolithic European or just the European group) than non Indo Iranians like Assyrians and Samaritans. Not a surprise that Indo Iranians's R1a1a1b2 Z93 ancestors R1a1a1b and R1a1a1 both most likley originated in eastern Europe.

What proof do you have that Z93 originated in Eastern Europe?





Also i have seen many sources say some Native Americans and Siberians have R1*.
What sources? Mtdna x2 is also found in Native Americans however it is not generally thought of originating from Siberia.

Maciamo
26-08-13, 09:42
Thanks! But Kurds (descendants of the ancient Iranic Medes) have as much of this so called Gedrosian autosomal admixture as Persians (descendants of the ancient Iranic Persians). Around 30%! So Kurdistan area is even more darker brown. Also there is a lot of this component in Pakistan. And there is not much of R1b in that area, but much more R1a and J2a. So according to me this component is linked to R1* (or even R*) that was influenced by West Asian J2a! Because the Gedrosia component is the descendant of the West Asian component.

You are right, the Kurds have around 28% of Gedrosian. I have corrected the map.

Sile
26-08-13, 12:47
You are right, the Kurds have around 28% of Gedrosian. I have corrected the map.

do you use this sheet...see attached or do you have something else to get all the dodecad
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE&hl=en_US#gid=0

Maciamo
26-08-13, 14:08
do you use this sheet...see attached or do you have something else to get all the dodecad
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE&hl=en_US#gid=0

I use that sheet + about 50 individual results with known place of origin.

Angela
26-08-13, 19:10
In looking at the K=12b spreadsheet, it appears that the TSI sample from Florence has 5% Gedrosia, which would bring the line down further into Italy, and which would actually coincide better with maps of R-L11 in Italy, and particularly with the high levels of U-152 in Tuscany. Even Tuscany is clinal in terms of genetics, and not a monolithic entity.

Also, I wonder if it would be possible to show the varying levels of Gedrosia in Spain, since all the regional values are provided in that spreadsheet.

It might be interesting in terms of comparing the graphic with one of the Indo-European languages in Spain, and also in terms of the Caucasus map you have provided from the same spreadsheet.

Maciamo
26-08-13, 19:22
In looking at the K=12b spreadsheet, it appears that the TSI sample from Florence has 5% Gedrosia, which would bring the line down further into Italy, and which would actually coincide better with maps of R-L11 in Italy, and particularly with the high levels of U-152 in Tuscany. Even Tuscany is clinal in terms of genetics, and not a monolithic entity.

There are two values for Tuscans in the spreadsheet: 4.8% and 5%. I suppose we could assume that north-west Tuscany has a little bit more of Gedrosian given the higher percentage of R1b. I will modify the map accordingly.

Didn't you say you had Corsican ancestry ? Would you happen to have any data on Corsica ?



Also, I wonder if it would be possible to show the varying levels of Gedrosia in Spain, since all the regional values are provided in that spreadsheet.

It might be interesting in terms of comparing the graphic with one of the Indo-European languages in Spain, and also in terms of the Caucasus map you have provided from the same spreadsheet.

Contrarily to the Caucasian admixture there is very little regional variation within Iberia for Gedrosian admixture. All the values are comprised between 5% and 7.3%, the highest being Catalonia. The French Basques have 9.8%, so I suppose Spanish Basques have a comparable level, logically the highest in Spain like R1b, but still under 10%.

Angela
26-08-13, 20:00
There are two values for Tuscans in the spreadsheet: 4.8% and 5%. I suppose we could assume that north-west Tuscany has a little bit more of Gedrosian given the higher percentage of R1b. I will modify the map accordingly.

Didn't you say you had Corsican ancestry ? Would you happen to have any data on Corsica ?

Contrarily to the Caucasian admixture there is very little regional variation within Iberia for Gedrosian admixture. All the values are comprised between 5% and 7.3%, the highest being Catalonia. The French Basques have 9.8%, so I suppose Spanish Basques have a comparable level, logically the highest in Spain like R1b, but still under 10%.

The TSI value of 5 is for Florence. All samples were taken from a small village just outside of it.

Alas, no, I'm not Corsican and don't share with any Corsicans; I'm half Emilian (Parma) and half from La Spezia and northwest Tuscany, hence my interest in those areas.

Ziober
27-08-13, 12:55
Interesting thread...

Ziober
30-08-13, 07:27
But in the project, the european countrys have around 10 samples each. It is not enough to take conclusions neither to create maps.

Arround 200 countrys, arround 1000 samples... it is not serious.

Sile
30-08-13, 10:37
The TSI value of 5 is for Florence. All samples were taken from a small village just outside of it.

Alas, no, I'm not Corsican and don't share with any Corsicans; I'm half Emilian (Parma) and half from La Spezia and northwest Tuscany, hence my interest in those areas.

Portovenere is better than La Spezia :grin:
Cinque terre is a nice place, you live in the land of the rich

MOESAN
30-08-13, 18:50
But in the project, the european countrys have around 10 samples each. It is not enough to take conclusions neither to create maps.

Arround 200 countrys, arround 1000 samples... it is not serious.

I am not sure of the method employed with these autosomals poolings, but I think there is a great number of genes studied in every man so statistically the result is more reliable than a study of a few physical traits (few implied genes) or an haplogroup about these small samples (I agree with you the samples are very scarce taken in themselves) -
I say that because I compared some edited scores for individuals of different countries (Kurds by instance but not only) and I saw very few variation between the people of a same country (I mean: not to vaste countries) as a whole - only about some Yemeni I saw a difference in a comparison where the paternal and maternal ligneages were separated: when the majority of these Yemeni had mostly in they maternal heritage some light Subsaharian components, one of them had a HUGE Subsaharian maternal part: surely a recent crossing (African mother?)
I regret I did not enregistered the links! (I am not doing a scholar work and as I have an already heavy heap of papers to burn so... I keep some traces, not all)
surely for large countries like Spain, France, an others, with complicated history it would be better to have more regionally specified samples - not only greater samples from the same region.

MOESAN
30-08-13, 19:00
Thanks! But Kurds (descendants of the ancient Iranic Medes) have as much of this so called Gedrosian autosomal admixture as Persians (descendants of the ancient Iranic Persians). Around 30%! So Kurdistan area is even more darker brown. Also there is a lot of this component in Pakistan. And there is not much of R1b in that area, but much more R1a and J2a. So according to me this component is linked to R1* (or even R*) that was influenced by West Asian J2a! Because the Gedrosia component is the descendant of the West Asian component.

I agree - we can say the current center for 'gedrosian' is in Pakistan - concerning the link with HGs (Y), we can say that Y-R1b as well as Y-R1a are descendants of Y-R1*, and are not obliged to be firstable born far from the core area -
AND the 'gedrosian' component in some population could have been obtained by crossings ('gedrosia' << females) as already said by ones here - the first downstreams SNPs of Y-R1b are not far from these regions too... - I'm almost sure of two ways for Y-R1b expansion(s), a S-Caucasus-Anatolian one and a N-Caspian one, went very far North before descend again in Europe (a bet of mines) - for Y-J2a I rather see components closer to the 'caucasian' part of 'west-asian' -
buena suerte! (hum! my spanish is very short)

MOESAN
30-08-13, 19:02
Sorry Goga: too much sugar in my 'punch' drink! I was yet with Ziober I wrote a post to just before!

Angela
02-09-13, 17:52
Portovenere is better than La Spezia :grin:
Cinque terre is a nice place, you live in the land of the rich

Sorry I missed your post. We go there for hiking (although there's great hiking in the Lunigiana as well) and boating and swimming (along with what sometimes seems to be the whole population of the U.S on holiday)....Portovenere is our preferred wedding location! Next time you go, try hiking in the area around Montemarcello and walk down to the beach below it. If you go upstream on the Magra in high summer you can also do some fishing...unpolluted waters, and lovely landscapes.

And don't forget the great eating!

I sound like a tourist ad!:laughing:

You've inspired me. I'm going to post a few things on the appropriate thread.

Ziober
03-09-13, 18:03
I am not sure of the method employed with these autosomals poolings, but I think there is a great number of genes studied in every man so statistically the result is more reliable than a study of a few physical traits (few implied genes) or an haplogroup about these small samples (I agree with you the samples are very scarce taken in themselves) -
I say that because I compared some edited scores for individuals of different countries (Kurds by instance but not only) and I saw very few variation between the people of a same country (I mean: not to vaste countries) as a whole - only about some Yemeni I saw a difference in a comparison where the paternal and maternal ligneages were separated: when the majority of these Yemeni had mostly in they maternal heritage some light Subsaharian components, one of them had a HUGE Subsaharian maternal part: surely a recent crossing (African mother?)
I regret I did not enregistered the links! (I am not doing a scholar work and as I have an already heavy heap of papers to burn so... I keep some traces, not all)
surely for large countries like Spain, France, an others, with complicated history it would be better to have more regionally specified samples - not only greater samples from the same region.

Thanks for the answer Moesan. It could be an aproximation, and could be real good representative in any cases (countrys). I don't want to disregard the Maciamo's work. I'm saying to take carefully with conclusions.

adamo
03-09-13, 18:07
"I don't want to disregard "the" Maciamo's work".......wow. I don't even want to comment on that.

Goga
04-09-13, 13:03
What about the mtDNA that's correlated to the Gedrosia component? The possibilities are great that mtDNA hg. U7 contains lot's of Gedrosia components.

Iranian people from Kurdistan to Tajikistan have high percentages of mtDNA hg. U7!

Ziober
04-09-13, 14:14
"I don't want to disregard "the" Maciamo's work".......wow. I don't even want to comment on that.

Is that your best contribution Adamo? I think this is not a chat, but a forum whith a thread to talk about...
Thanks.

Albania
08-09-13, 21:18
30.22% Atlantic_Med
30.05% Caucasus
23.33% North_European
8.96% Southwest_Asian
5.89% Gedrosia


My K12b

MOESAN
21-09-13, 17:06
I made a first bet concerning 'gedrosia' and a first wave of Y-R1b's taking a North way to go to Europe (non -IE) -
a bet = a wish!
I would make a second bet (before put my third one and my "joker") -
spite it is not the very same (Y-R1b lost or never had strength in today Pakistan and surroundings), the gedrosian %s map in Europe is not too far from a Y-R1b map - and not too far also from the Bell Beaker world as a whole - I was thinking too in the 'long barrows' people I see as the founders of megalithical colonisation: but the inland presence in W-Europe confuses me a little bit - that said, a first maritime colonisation could have been followed by an inland one (the S-France megaliths are posterior to the N-W Atlantic shores ones... all the way whatever the origin and the route, the less presence of 'gedrosia's in E-Europe could be the result of erasing by Near-Easterners or-Anatolia people ('caucasians') + other steppic tribes more Y-R1a...('NE-european') -
in few words: very boring fleeing history!!!

Ziober
23-09-13, 19:44
I made a first bet concerning 'gedrosia' and a first wave of Y-R1b's taking a North way to go to Europe (non -IE) -
a bet = a wish!
I would make a second bet (before put my third one and my "joker") -
spite it is not the very same (Y-R1b lost or never had strength in today Pakistan and surroundings), the gedrosian %s map in Europe is not too far from a Y-R1b map - and not too far also from the Bell Beaker world as a whole - I was thinking too in the 'long barrows' people I see as the founders of megalithical colonisation: but the inland presence in W-Europe confuses me a little bit - that said, a first maritime colonisation could have been followed by an inland one (the S-France megaliths are posterior to the N-W Atlantic shores ones... all the way whatever the origin and the route, the less presence of 'gedrosia's in E-Europe could be the result of erasing by Near-Easterners or-Anatolia people ('caucasians') + other steppic tribes more Y-R1a...('NE-european') -
in few words: very boring fleeing history!!!

You let me intriged Moesan....

ToBeOrNotToBe
14-05-18, 11:26
So is this the source of the CHG in Yamnaya? Why is this component preserved in North Western Europe much better than West Asian? That's what I don't understand with this pre-proto-IE of the Caucasus or Anatolia or in between hypothesis - why so little West Asian? Isn't CHG based on West Asian (or vice versa)?

raspberry
14-05-18, 18:23
I am far below my regional average apparently.

New Englander
15-05-18, 05:20
I think it has something to do with paleolithic migration, and the fact the UK is an island.