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RHAS
26-08-13, 14:21
"There is a distinct association of ancient J2 civilisations with bull worship."
Eupedia.com, 2011.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml)

"There is a distinct association of ancient J2 civilisations with bull worship. The oldest evidence of a cult of the bull can be traced back to Neolithic central Anatolia, notably at the sites of Çatalhöyük and Alaca Höyük. Bull depictions are omnipresent in Minoan frescos and ceramics in Crete. Bull-masked terracotta figurines and bull-horned stone altars have been found in Cyprus (dating back as far as the Neolithic, the first presumed expansion of J2 from West Asia)."
The Sacred Bull.
http://aratta.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/the-sacred-bull/ (http://aratta.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/the-sacred-bull/)

RHAS
26-08-13, 14:26
Bull leaping, (taurokathapsia)

"Bull-leaping (also taurokathapsia, from Greek ταυροκαθάψια) is a motif of Middle Bronze Age figurative art, notably of Minoan Crete, but also found in Hittite Anatolia, the Levant, Bactria and the Indus Valley. It is often interpreted as a depiction of a ritual performed in connection with bull worship. This ritual consists of an acrobatic leap over a bull; when the leaper grasps the bull's horns, the bull will violently jerk his neck upwards giving the leaper the momentum necessary to perform somersaults and other acrobatic tricks or stunts."
Bull-leaping
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull-leaping

Minoan Bull-Leaping Fresco.

https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/184303_496342860423874_1076560344_n.jpg

Modern Recortadores


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8wYIARooEE

RHAS
26-08-13, 14:31
Zeus and Europa

"In Greek mythology Europa (Greek Ευρώπη Eurṓpē) was a Phoenician woman of high lineage, from whom the name of the continent Europe has ultimately been taken. The story of her abduction by Zeus in the form of a white bull was a Cretan story; as Kerényi points out "most of the love-stories concerning Zeus originated from more ancient tales describing his marriages with goddesses. This can especially be said of the story of Europa".
Europa (Mythology)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(mythology)

5998


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKg8Fv9ydRM



5997

RHAS
26-08-13, 14:37
The bull: symbol of power fertilizing, propagation vital. Associate for their horns with the moon and its influences. Connects with the mythical figure of the Minotaur, with the Egyptian Apis bull, bullfighting dance with ancient Crete, and the cult of Mithras.

El toro: símbolo de potencia fecundante, de propagación vital. Asociado por sus cuernos con la luna y sus influjos. Entroncado con la figura mítica del Minotauro, con el toro egipcio Apis, con las danzas taurinas de la antigua Creta, y con el culto de Mitra.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19cgZpcWARo

RHAS
26-08-13, 14:43
Mithras.

"The tauroctony scene is the cult relief (i.e. the central icon) of the Mithraic Mysteries. It depicts Mithras killing a bull, hence the name 'tauroctony', given to the scene in modern times possibly after the Greek ταυροκτόνος (tauroktonos) "slaughtering bulls", which derives from ταῦρος (tauros) "bull" + κτόνος (ktonos) "murder", from κτείνω (kteinō), "I kill, slay"."
Tauroctony
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tauroctony

5993

"The Mithraic Mysteries were a mystery religion practiced in the Roman Empire from about the 1st to 4th centuries AD. The name of the Persian god Mithra (proto-Indo-Iranian Mitra), adapted into Greek as Mithras, was linked to a new and distinctive imagery. Writers of the Roman Empire period referred to this mystery religion by phrases which can be anglicized as Mysteries of Mithras or Mysteries of the Persians; modern historians refer to it as Mithraism, or sometimes Roman Mithraism. The mysteries were popular in the Roman military."
Mithraic Mysteries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ5eeQ_XKyQ

RHAS
26-08-13, 15:09
"Bucranium, plural bucrania (Latin, from Greek βουκράνιον, referring to the skull of an ox) was a common form of carved decoration in Classical architecture used to fill the metopes between the triglyphs of the frieze of Doric temples. A bas-relief or painted decor consisting of a series of ox-skulls draped or decorated with garlands of fruit or flowers was a Roman motif drawn from marble altars, which have survived in some number; the motif was also later used on Renaissance, Baroque and Neoclassical buildings. The name is generally considered to be a reference to the practice of garlanding sacrificial oxen, the heads of which were displayed on the walls of the temples, a practice with a long history reaching back to the sophisticated Neolithic site of Çatalhöyük in eastern Anatolia, where cattle skulls were overlaid with white plaster."
Bucranium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucranium

"In the Roman Empire of the 2nd to 4th centuries, taurobolium referred to practices involving the sacrifice of a bull, which after mid-2nd century became connected with the worship of the Great Mother of the Gods; though not previously limited to her cultus, after 159 CE all private taurobolia inscriptions mention Magna Mater. Originating in Asia Minor, its earliest attested performance in Italy occurred in 134 CE, at Puteoli, in honor of Venus Caelestis, documented by an inscription."
Taurobolium.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurobolium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurobolium[video=youtube;ZXbz--mBAI4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXbz--mBAI4[/video)

"In the ancient Mediterranean region, bugonia or bougonia was a ritual based on the belief that bees were spontaneously generated from a cow's carcass, although it is possible that the ritual had more currency as a poetic and learned trope than as an actual practice."
Bugonia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugonia

"The worship of the Sacred Bull throughout the ancient world is most familiar to the Western world in the Biblical episode of the idol of the Golden Calf. The Golden Calf after being made by the Hebrew people in the wilderness of Sinai, were rejected and destroyed by Moses and the Hebrew people after Moses' time upon Mount Sinai (Book of Exodus). Marduk is the "bull of Utu". Shiva's steed is Nandi, the Bull. The sacred bull survives in the constellation Taurus. The bull, whether lunar as in Mesopotamia or solar as in India, is the subject of various other cultural and religious incarnations, as well as modern mentions in new age cultures."
Sacred Bull.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_bull

"The name comes from Greek Bosporos (Βόσπορος), which the ancient Greeks analysed as bous βοῦς 'ox' + poros πόρος 'means of passing a river, ford, ferry', thus meaning 'ox-ford', which is a reference to Io (mythology) from Greek mythology who was transformed into a cow and condemned to wander the earth until she crossed the Bosphorus where she met Prometheus."
Bosphoros.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosphorus

"Taurus is one of the constellations of the zodiac, which means it is crossed by the plane of the ecliptic. Its name is a Latin word meaning "bull", and its astrological symbol is a stylized bull's head: Taurus.svg (Unicode ♉). Taurus is a large and prominent constellation in the northern hemisphere's winter sky. It is one of the oldest constellations, dating back to at least the Early Bronze Age when it marked the location of the Sun during the spring equinox. Taurus came to symbolize the bull in the mythologies of Ancient Babylon, Egypt and Greece."
Taurus Constellation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus_(constellation)

"Bucephalus or Bucephalas (/bjuːˈsɛfələs/; Ancient Greek: Βουκέφαλος or Βουκεφάλας, from βούς bous, "ox" and κεφαλή kephalē, "head" meaning "ox-head") (c. 355 BC – June 326 BC) was Alexander the Great's horse and one of the most famous actual horses of antiquity.[1] Ancient accounts[2] state that Bucephalus died after the Battle of the Hydaspes in 326 BC, in what is now modern Pakistan, and is buried in Jalalpur Sharif outside of Jhelum, Pakistan. Another account states that Bucephalus is buried in Phalia, a town in Pakistan's Mandi Bahauddin District, which is named after him."
Bucephalus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucephalus

RHAS
26-08-13, 15:39
The First Eden: The Mediterranean World and Man is a BBC documentary series written and presented by David Attenborough, first transmitted in the United Kingdom from 8 March 1987. Attenborough explores the influence of the first Mediterranean civilisations, placing the symbolism of the bull at the centre of his narrative.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RoJLkHX_0o

RHAS
26-08-13, 17:22
Theseus and the Minotaur

"In Greek mythology, the Minotaur (/ˈmaɪnətɔː/, /ˈmɪnəˌtɔr/; Ancient Greek: Μῑνώταυρος [miːnɔ̌ːtau̯ros], Latin: Minotaurus, Etruscan Θevrumineś), was a creature with the head of a bull on the body of a man or, as described by Roman poet Ovid, "part man and part bull". He dwelt at the center of the Cretan Labyrinth, which was an elaborate maze-like construction designed by the architect Daedalus and his son Icarus, on the command of King Minos of Crete. The Minotaur was eventually killed by the Athenian hero Theseus."
Minotaur.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minotaur


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qrZ1clEp-Y

edao
26-08-13, 18:01
We still worship the money... I mean the Bull today.

"Charging Bull, which is sometimes referred to as the Wall Street Bull or the Bowling Green Bull, is a 3,200-kilogram (7,100 lb) bronze sculpture by Arturo Di Modica that stands in Bowling Green Park near Wall Street in Manhattan, New York City." read more (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_Bull)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c9/Charging_Bull_statue.jpg

Abernathy
27-08-13, 13:12
Not sure all of these ancient people could easily be linked to hg J2.

J2 was probably the main haplo amongst Minoans, and this can explain references in both Europa's and Theseus' myths, since both of them are referring to Crete, but it was not a major haplogroup in Ancient Egypt, so I can't see how J2 people could have a role in the worship of Api.

Looking at ancient India, cattle has been worshipped (or, at least, respected and protected) for millennia: Indus Valley civilization shows huge evidence of this, and Toda people -the last pre-Hindu tribal group of India- still rely on dairy products for their survival and practice a cult revolving around the sacred buffalo (which probably is the ancestor of modern indan zebus).

Haplogroup J2, instead, is fairly common in India, but at far higher rates amongst people belonging to upper castes, who descend from later Indo-Aryan settlers, that arrived in the Indian subcontinent when cows were already addressed to as sacred animals.

Cattle might have had some importance in Indo-Aryan rites as well, since ritual sacrifice was common amongst related Iranian people before Zarathustra's religious reform (and would later be reprised in Mitra's cult), but this tradition and indigenous indians' beliefs can hardly be related.


So, the more reasonable explanation is that wherever people domesticated cattle, they introduced cattle itself in their ritual or religious system,whether they belonged to hg J2 or not.

adamo
27-08-13, 14:35
Think of it; bull worship was used both by Cretans and anatolians (Hittites). The Hittites where a well-respected adversary of the Egyptians, and the Egyptians may have been influenced by the middle eastern Hittites, just as ancient Cretans and Lydia's/Lycian's etc. shared religious beliefs and deities; some ancient Babylonian or Phoenician gods where adopted by Lydians and eventually by Greeks, with Greek versions of these ancient deities and their lost, mythical origins. Much of ancient roman mythology was simply a slightly romanized version of the Greek mythology and gods, another good example of adopting other customs.

Goga
27-08-13, 14:54
Looking at ancient India, cattle has been worshipped (or, at least, respected and protected) for millennia: Indus Valley civilization shows huge evidence of this, and Toda people -the last pre-Hindu tribal group of India- still rely on dairy products for their survival and practice a cult revolving around the sacred buffalo (which probably is the ancestor of modern indan zebus).

Haplogroup J2, instead, is fairly common in India, but at far higher rates amongst people belonging to upper castes, who descend from later Indo-Aryan settlers, that arrived in the Indian subcontinent when cows were already addressed to as sacred animals.

Cattle might have had some importance in Indo-Aryan rites as well, since ritual sacrifice was common amongst related Iranian people before Zarathustra's religious reform (and would later be reprised in Mitra's cult), but this tradition and indigenous indians' beliefs can hardly be related.

So, the more reasonable explanation is that wherever people domesticated cattle, they introduced cattle itself in their ritual or religious system,whether they belonged to hg J2 or not.
Here we can see a Sumerian Golden Bull. It has been said that there was a migration of 'farmers' from West into the Indus Valley. http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1788/PreviewComp/SuperStock_1788-14659.jpg

Goga
27-08-13, 14:58
Sumerian Bull Lyre
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4gJjolcLdU

Maciamo
27-08-13, 18:19
"There is a distinct association of ancient J2 civilisations with bull worship."
Eupedia.com, 2013.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml)

"There is a distinct association of ancient J2 civilisations with bull worship. The oldest evidence of a cult of the bull can be traced back to Neolithic central Anatolia, notably at the sites of Çatalhöyük and Alaca Höyük. Bull depictions are omnipresent in Minoan frescos and ceramics in Crete. Bull-masked terracotta figurines and bull-horned stone altars have been found in Cyprus (dating back as far as the Neolithic, the first presumed expansion of J2 from West Asia)."
The Sacred Bull.
http://aratta.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/the-sacred-bull/ (http://aratta.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/the-sacred-bull/)

I first wrote about the link between haplogroup J2 and bull worship in 2011, not in 2013. The other site that you quoted copied and pasted the content from Eupedia.

RHAS
27-08-13, 20:02
I first wrote about the link between haplogroup J2 and bull worship in 2011, not in 2013. The other site that you quoted copied and pasted the content from Eupedia. That is correct, the 2013 reference however means i read and documented the quote at that particular time. (not when it first was thought up, which credit obviously goes entirely to eupedia)

Abernathy
27-08-13, 21:06
Here we can see a Sumerian Golden Bull. It has been said that there was a migration of 'farmers' from West into the Indus Valley.


Actually, there's no evidence of a Sumerian/Near-Eastern-lead spreading of agriculture in the Indus Valley, nor genetically nor archaeologically.

Talking about genetics, haplo J2 in India is linked to bronze-age Indo-aryan newcomers: as I said above, it's major presence amongst brahmins and upper-castes individuals clearly shows it. People from Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro probably belonged to haplogroups L, H and possibly R2.

Even if we just consider archeological evidence, what we see is a civilization which strongly relied on buffalo herding, which seems to be the focus of their whole culture, whereas farming (although advancely practiced), at least initially, was a collateral activity. A farming-centred interpetation is merely the result of a ME-bias in modern archaeology, as it's suggested in a paper by Walter Fairservis you can find on the web (I'd link it, but my post count is too low).

Since buffaloes were autonomally domesticated in Southern Asia, there's no necessary intervention of supposed middle-eastern herders. So, a Mesopotamic origin of cattle worshipping in India (either related to hg J2 or not) is hardly reliable.

Obviously, this is not meant to disprove the existence of an ancient bull worship tradition in Anatolia, nor I'm trying to deny J2 people could have brought this cult to Crete or elsewhere.

What I men to point out is that when talking about basic beliefs and traditions (e.g. bull worship, Earth Goddess, corpses-related taboos), we shouldn't necessarily search for a common origin, since many aspects of different civilizations could have risen indipendently. Y-haplo's are a great discovery indeed, but we should remember Mayan farmers didn't belong to J1 nor G lineages :)

Goga
27-08-13, 23:24
Ok, thanks mate. You seem to know more about this topic than I do. So, I don't know man. But thanks for the input. And I do agree with you that we should stay critical about the origin of bull-worshiping. But I believe that proto-Indo-Aryans and proto-Iranians (Aryans) were J2a folks from West Asian that mixed with R1a-Z93 native to the Iranian Plateau and Central Asia! So It makes actually sense that bull-worshiping in Indus Valley is from West Asia, because West Asian/Caucasian y-DNA hg. J2a is present in Indus Valley. Also have you noticed that Indus Valley is very high withGedrosia autDNA component. And Gedrosia component is closely connected to West Asia/Caucasiancomponent.

Goga
27-08-13, 23:39
Solar Religion in Harappa is from the Sumerians! http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/9219/c36l.jpg from a book 'The Rise of Man in the Gardens of Sumeria" by Christine Preston

Goga
27-08-13, 23:41
" Viticulture was believed to have been introduced to India by Persian traders sometime in the 4th millennium BC. Historians believe that these early plantings were used mostly for table grapes or grape juice rather than the production of an alcoholic beverage. During the Vedic period of the 2nd and 1st millennia, the Aryan tribes of the region were known for their indulgence in intoxicating drink and it seems probable that wine was a current beverage. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_wine

Goga
27-08-13, 23:47
" Seal impressions have been found in the ancient city of Harrapan, in the Indus River valley (modern Pakistan), that had been made by seals found in Lagash in Sumeria (modern i-rack). From 3,600 B.C. in Sumer, and a little later in the Indus Valley, we can find seals made out of a rare high-quality stone, lapis lazuli. These stones could only have originated from rather distant and inaccessible mines in Afghanistan. " http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/4590/zxzo.jpg So we have got 5 indications that Sumerians (proto-Aryans) migrated into the Indus Valley! a) J2a, b) bull-worshiping, c) Solar Religion, d) viticulture and e) Sumerian stone seals!

Abernathy
28-08-13, 00:03
But I believe that proto-Indo-Aryans and proto-Iranians (Aryans) were J2a folks from West Asian that mixed with R1a-Z93 native to the Iranian Plateau and Central Asia! So It makes actually sense that bull-worshiping in Indus Valley is from West Asia, because West Asian/Caucasian y-DNA hg. J2a is present in Indus Valley. Also have you noticed that Indus Valley is very high withGedrosia autDNA component. And Gedrosia component is closely connected to West Asia/Caucasiancomponent.

Well, I respect your own opinion, but I have to say that most genetists are convinced that R1a was the original lineage of Indo-Aryan people (who, indeed, were IE nomads coming from present Turkestan -Adronovo/Sintashta cultures-, keen to proven R1a Tocharian folks), while J2a is thought to be a non-IE lineage that Indo-Aryans later incorporated during their journey to Hindustan through the Iranian plateau. Which seems to be exactly the opposite to what you said :smile:

I can't say who's right, but I haven't seen any evidence against the traditional R1a theory, so far.

Besides this, and much more important: Indus Valley civilization is not Indo-Aryan, since it rose much earlier, at about a thousand years before Vedic people reached India. So, even if we consider Aryans to be a middle-eastern J2a cluster, which just met R1a through its way (as you said), cattle worship in India can't be expained as a result of an Aryan invasion from the Tigris, simply because buffaloes were already worshipped in India (or at least had some sacred importance) when Aryans got there.

So, whether Indo-Aryans were J2a or R1a people, it gets unrelevant: cattle worshipping (of some sort) preceeded them of a millenium.

Goga
28-08-13, 00:32
I don't know who you mean by 'most genetics', I just hope you don’t mean the online amateur community. But according to many professional scholars and academics this was the case: http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/7673/50825574.jpg
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/9251/25565334.jpg

Noman
28-08-13, 00:40
" Seal impressions have been found in the ancient city of Harrapan, in the Indus River valley (modern Pakistan), that had been made by seals found in Lagash in Sumeria (modern i-rack). From 3,600 B.C. in Sumer, and a little later in the Indus Valley, we can find seals made out of a rare high-quality stone, lapis lazuli. These stones could only have originated from rather distant and inaccessible mines in Afghanistan. " http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/4590/zxzo.jpg So we have got 5 indications that Sumerians (proto-Aryans) migrated into the Indus Valley! a) J2a, b) bull-worshiping, c) Solar Religion, d) viticulture and e) Sumerian stone seals!

Except celts and a dozen other synonymous or similar groups all have these same things, and they aren't associated with all or even most J2J2. 3600 bc is far enough back to be pretty close to the origin point.

Basically the vedics are r1a, at least in current days and I am pretty sure, just always. There so many of them with R1a it's hard to deny that. J2 is in current day gedrosia but its not in india as heavily, and not as heavy as r1a.

I am pretty sure persia is the origin point, but who knows, maybe IVC itself.

Goga
28-08-13, 00:50
Except celts and a dozen other synonymous or similar groups all have these same things, and they aren't associated with all or even most J2J2. 3600 bc is far enough back to be pretty close to the origin point.

Basically the vedics are r1a, at least in current days and I am pretty sure, just always. There so many of them with R1a it's hard to deny that. J2 is in current day gedrosia but its not in india as heavily, and not as heavy as r1a.

I am pretty sure persia is the origin point, but who knows, maybe IVC itself.

As we know original proto-Celtic R1b lived not far from J2a in West Asia, and maybe even together with J2a in Southern Caucasus since we have got different lineages of J2a in Europe from different eras. I'm sure West European R1b got Centum Indo-Europeanized in West Asia, When R1b migrated from West Asia into Europe, R1b was already Centum Indo-European.

There’s a lot WestAsian J2a in Indus Valley and Central Asia, much more than in inland of Indian sub continent.

R1a-Z93 was is/was native to the Iranian Plateau, Central Asia etc. for a very long time. BEFORE the arrival of J2a!!!

Noman
28-08-13, 00:52
Well, I respect your own opinion, but I have to say that most genetists are convinced that R1a was the original lineage of Indo-Aryan people (who, indeed, were IE nomads coming from present Turkestan -Adronovo/Sintashta cultures-, keen to proven R1a Tocharian folks), while J2a is thought to be a non-IE lineage that Indo-Aryans later incorporated during their journey to Hindustan through the Iranian plateau. Which seems to be exactly the opposite to what you said :smile:

I can't say who's right, but I haven't seen any evidence against the traditional R1a theory, so far.

Besides this, and much more important: Indus Valley civilization is not Indo-Aryan, since it rose much earlier, at about a thousand years before Vedic people reached India. So, even if we consider Aryans to be a middle-eastern J2a cluster, which just met R1a through its way (as you said), cattle worship in India can't be expained as a result of an Aryan invasion from the Tigris, simply because buffaloes were already worshipped in India (or at least had some sacred importance) when Aryans got there.

So, whether Indo-Aryans were J2a or R1a people, it gets unrelevant: cattle worshipping (of some sort) preceeded them of a millenium.

The tribes that are called aryan today are r2. However they are probably not what is refered to, after all they talk about "aryans" in germany as well. Just like the romans called everyone celts for a while, too. Just kind of blanket terms.

And I don't htink you can say the cattle worshipping preceeded them. That's just the furthers back we have found them in that area. Since cattle worship worms all through the IE migrating people I don't think you can separate the two without some serious evidence.

Noman
28-08-13, 00:56
As we know original proto-Celtic R1b lived not far from J2a in West Asia, and maybe even together with J2a in Southern Caucasus since we have got different lineages of J2a in Europe from different eras. I'm sure West European R1b got Centum Indo-Europeanized in West Asia, When R1b migrated from West Asia into Europe, R1b was already Centum Indo-European.

There’s a lot WestAsian J2a in Indus Valley and Central Asia, much more than in inland of Indian sub continent.

R1a-Z93 was is/was native to the Iranian Plateau, Central Asia etc. for a very long time. BEFORE the arrival of J2a!!!

But there doesn't seem to be any j2a component in celts.

Goga
28-08-13, 00:58
The tribes that are called aryan today are r2. However they are probably not what is refered to, after all they talk about "aryans" in germany as well. Just like the romans called everyone celts for a while, too. Just kind of blanket terms.

And I don't htink you can say the cattle worshipping preceeded them. That's just the furthers back we have found them in that area. Since cattle worship worms all through the IE migrating people I don't think you can separate the two without some serious evidence.
Aryan = different name for Iranian. According to the Histories of Herodotus: " The Medes were called anciently by all people Aryans ". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes

Goga
28-08-13, 01:03
But there doesn't seem to be any j2a component in celts.There's a lot J2a in Ukraine and Central Europe. It is possible that Proto-Celts that migrated out of West Asia first settled down in Central-East Europe. From that Central European region they (already evolved West European R1b Celts) invaded Western Europe.

RHAS
28-08-13, 01:15
Sacred Egyptian cows and bulls (Apis)

"In Egyptian mythology, Apis or Hapis (alternatively spelled Hapi-ankh), is a bull-deity that was worshipped in the Memphis region."
Apis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_(god)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXbz--mBAI4

Noman
28-08-13, 01:35
Just so you know I don't think r = all IE and is probably not origin of anything just spreader. But it seems more likely to be iran to me to originate it, though I guess that could be argued might have been mostly j2a at some point, I am not sure honestly.

In my mind the Rs were HG who are now settled farmers and J2a were farmers much sooner and became mobile later but maybe I am sketchy on j2a facts.

Goga
28-08-13, 02:30
R1b is a haplogroup of true warriors in the Western Europe, R1a is a haplogroups of warriors in the Eurasian steppes. But J2a is a haplogroup of (civilizations and) GODS!
The original Jews belonged to J2a and were from Northern Mesopotamia. The name of their God, YAHWEH, is from Northern Mesopotamia. Abraham and Noah were from Mesopotamia. The Jewish Golden Calf and the coming of the Messiah!
http://www.biblesearchers.com/hebrews/jewish/messiah2_files/image011.jpg

adamo
28-08-13, 02:54
J2 is found in 20% of Jews. It's also found in 15-30% of Syrians, 30% of Iraqis, Armenians, Iranians, Georgians,Turks,v35% of Lebanese, etc; it isn't only restricted to Jews in the Middle East; there are different Jewish and non-Jewish networks within J2; even some European and Indian ones. J2 has a high that covers everything from Israel and north-central Iraq in the south, to western iran and across the Caucasus, and onto the Anatolian peninsula and into the levant as well. What is known is that the Phoenicians of the levant, along with Anatolian groups, crossed into Europe and brought some of their J2 influence with them during the Neolithic period 10,000 years ago. From far, certain people classify these lineages as Assyrian/Mesopotamian; among the first successful middle eastern agriculturalists who would settle for thousands of years across Anatolia and the near east (the Fertile Crescent portion in particular.) During the Neolithic, prolonged prior agricultural success would propel the J2 lineage from turkey into a few rare parts of the Greek peninsula and the island of Crete. This would be the first steps of an upcoming Mediterranean dominance. Today, the highest J2 frequencies of all in Europe are in Crete, where 37% of men belong to J2 alone. Cyprus has very high levels as well (32-35%), which isn't surprising due to it's proximity to turkey/levant. Sicily has surprisingly high J2 values (30%) and southern Italy is close behind (20-25%). Overall, both Italy and Greece have about 20-25% J2 on a national level. These are by far the highest frequencies in Europe. Albania and Bulgaria have 10-15% as do Romania, Portugal and Spain.

Goga
28-08-13, 03:26
J2a is the only 4th or 5th haplogroup among Assyrians. Assyrians belong mostly to R1b and J1 (+ E, T etc) Assyrians are descendants of Akkadians and some Semitic tribes frorm the Levant, while the original proto-Jews came from North ( Kurdish populated areas ) and belonged mostly to hg. J2a. This is what the Jewish/Israeli scientists are telling us. Later, Jews from north mixed with E & J1 folks in Israel (/ the Levant)! So, it's possible that the original J2a Jews were not Semitic speakers at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss-g5lgv8n8

Goga
28-08-13, 03:26
Part 2: the Golden Calf and the coming of their Jewish Messiah.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfIMmMdS10c

LeBrok
28-08-13, 03:38
There's a lot J2a in Ukraine and Central Europe. It is possible that Proto-Celts that migrated out of West Asia first settled down in Central-East Europe. From that Central European region they (already evolved West European R1b Celts) invaded Western Europe.
Are you saying that Celts purposely left all J2a man in Ukraine when they left to the west? How did they know which one was J2a without DNA tests?

Goga
28-08-13, 03:49
Are you saying that Celts purposely left all J2a man in Ukraine when they left to the west? How did they know which one was J2a without DNA tests?Well, they also left most I2a and R1a men in that area. :grin: Maybe it was just a very homogeneous clan/tribe that left Central Europe and on their quest to invade Western Europe and were all leaders (males) of that tribe related by bloodline, were brothers, cousins etc of each other. But there's still some clades of J2a in Western Europe in Celtic areas: France, Southern Englnd, Italy. And J2a in Western Europe is not really that old and not from the ancient times, since they still never found pre-historic J2a in Europe to date!

LeBrok
28-08-13, 04:02
R1b is a haplogroup of true warriors in the Western Europe, R1a is a haplogroups of warriors in the Eurasian steppes. But J2a is a haplogroup of (civilizations and) GODS!
The original Jews belonged to J2a and were from Northern Mesopotamia. The name of their God, YAHWEH, is from Northern Mesopotamia. Abraham and Noah were from Mesopotamia. The Jewish Golden Calf and the coming of the Messiah!


But I believe that proto-Indo-Aryans and proto-Iranians (Aryans) were J2a folks from West Asian that mixed with R1a-Z93 native to the Iranian Plateau and Central Asia!
Are you trying to confuse us on purpose?
According to you, Aryans originally were J2a (IE and came from steppe), conquered mesopotamia, populated it with high J2a, which later gave start to Jews, their main HG? Other words, proto Jews were Aryans.
Now, Hitler would really flip. :D

adamo
28-08-13, 05:08
No, the indo-aryans (the Iranian indo-European branch) would have been primarily R1a. The same goes for much of Central Asia where R1a is found at high frequencies (Afghanistan,India,Pakistan,Nepal,Tajikistan,turke nistan Central Asia etc.) the indo-European anatolians on the other hand, (turkey,Armenia,north Iraqi rare instances) is R1b.

adamo
28-08-13, 05:10
So Central Asia has more R1a (including Iran), whereas Anatolia and the Caucasus region (Armenia) is where they where R1b L-23.

Noman
28-08-13, 05:12
In the bible most of the descriptions give blue eyes or ruddy hair or pale skin for almost everyone in the OT. They also claim to come from Ur.

So that part makes sense. The semitic look of some jews is probably just that, exposure to semitic influence further south. Guy in the video looks exactly like what I expect for messopotamians.

I think the golden calf, though, was the outside influnce that was rejected. Rejection of the probably r1b cultures.

But you have to realize too jews got enslaved by rome en masse and became a big part of urban life in europe from then on. That's probably where rome and greece in byzantine times picked up the huge amount of j2a. We know there were more jews than greeks in Constantinople before it fell! Dienekes is conviced greece is j2a but I suspect it's because he himself is. Classic greeks look nothing like the guy in the video.

adamo
28-08-13, 05:18
Jews are not the source of all J2. The J2 mutation took place LONG before the bible and Jews. You are wrong. Much J2 in Italy is of Neolithic origin from the Middle East, or from Cretans/Greeks that colonized southern Italy but that thousands of years before, found their origin in a wave of men that moved from western turkey into Greece and the Aegean world. (Note, J2 did not originate in western turkey, It's origins point to southern turkey/northern Syria, northwestern Iraq. Most of it in Italy is NOT because of middle eastern Ashkenazi / Sephardic Jewish groups; although undoubtedly, a smaller percentage of it is.

adamo
28-08-13, 05:23
Much of the J2 in Greece (j2b) seems to cluster in it Greek and albanian J, even 10% of north-central italian. J2. Italy is a different story, as most of it in Italy is J2a, linking it to Cretans and mainland middle easterners; who have a more middle eastern clade. So J2b is primarily restricted to the southern Balkans and north-central Italy, whereas J2a dominates Italy, and is found from western Iran across Armenia, turkey, northern Iraq, Lebanon etc. Crete is a sort of "treasure box of J2a", not only does crete have europes highest frequencies of the male J2 lineage, the vast majority of it is J2a, heavily linking Cretan populations to Turkish and nearby middle eastern ones.

LeBrok
28-08-13, 07:30
Jews are not the source of all J2. The J2 mutation took place LONG before the bible and Jews. You are wrong. Much J2 in Italy is of Neolithic origin from the Middle East, or from Cretans/Greeks that colonized southern Italy but that thousands of years before, found their origin in a wave of men that moved from western turkey into Greece and the Aegean world. (Note, J2 did not originate in western turkey, It's origins point to southern turkey/northern Syria, northwestern Iraq. Most of it in Italy is NOT because of middle eastern Ashkenazi / Sephardic Jewish groups; although undoubtedly, a smaller percentage of it is.
Exactly. J2 is early farmers HG from Fertile Crescent. They were in Europe and any farming lands around mediterranean long before Greek or Roman Empires.

Noman
28-08-13, 07:39
All right, I am convinced.

adamo
28-08-13, 07:49
J2, tiny amounts of J1 and G all entered europe during the Neolithic some 10,000-15,000 years ago. Then there are countless waves of J2 people's such as the Etruscans, followed by the Greeks who would have brought E-V13 with them etc.

adamo
28-08-13, 07:50
Maybe hg T shares a similar story as well.

LeBrok
28-08-13, 07:52
But you have to realize too jews got enslaved by rome en masse and became a big part of urban life in europe from then on. That's probably where rome and greece in byzantine times picked up the huge amount of j2a. We know there were more jews than greeks in Constantinople before it fell!
They didn't need to be enslaved to spread. Wherever they've gone they were successful. Before the WWII there were 6 million Jews in Poland and Russia alone (15% of population of Poland), and 10 million in whole Europe. Who knows how many millions of them were already assimilated in Europe during last 2000 years. I'm sure there is a little bit of Jewish blood in every European by now.

LeBrok
28-08-13, 07:54
Maybe hg T shares a similar story as well.
Looks like it does.

adamo
28-08-13, 08:08
True, we cannot confuse the two. Many European J and K mtdna lineages ARE evidence of Ashkenazi Jewish blood. Many male J1 and J2 or E3b lineages, even T, can be found in Jews, especially If the individual comes from east-central Europe near Germany/Poland/Belarus/Ukraine, lots of Jews. And then others are of much older Neolithic influence.

LeBrok
28-08-13, 08:09
J2, tiny amounts of J1 and G all entered europe during the Neolithic some 10,000-15,000 years ago.
Perhaps, but it is hard to prove at the moment.


Then there are countless waves of J2 people's such as the Etruscans, followed by the Greeks who would have brought E-V13 with them etc.I'm sure E-V13 entered Europe long before any people called themselves Greeks. Greeks became Greeks after IE invasions.

I think that if J, G, T and E dominated pre IE mediterranean Europe, they probably used Afro-Asiatic/Semitic language. The supposed language of farmers from Fertile Crescent. Modern Greek is IE language. IE brought big cultural and linguistic shift. Only after that we see creation of Greece as we know it.

adamo
28-08-13, 08:13
I doubt any E-V13 moved from the Balkans to Italy without it being of Greek origin. It would be E-M78 or E-M81 if it was still purely north-African maybe the middle eastern/Sinai E-V22? Greeks simply mixed with later incoming indo-europeans (the original middle eastern/north-African barbaroi). And that is when the barbarians wherein"hellenized" or almost in an interpretational sense, civilized. That is when the Greek ethnos was created.

Nobody1
28-08-13, 08:41
Doubt no more;

In 2007 Cruciani et al 2007 stated that E-V13 originated in the NearEast/Anatolia and spread during the Neolithic times to the Balkans and from there to rest of Europe;

Thus, the most parsimonious and plausible scenario is that E-V13 originated in western Asia about 11 ky ago.....As to a western Asia–Europe connection, our data suggest that western Asians carrying E-V13 may have reached the Balkans anytime after 17.0 ky ago, but expanded into Europe not earlier than 5.3 ky ago.

Cruciani placed the spread of E-V13 in the Neolithic however also to a much later date;


In 2011 it was revealed that E-V13 was found at a Neolithic site as far west as Spain [5th mil. BC]

Lacan et al 2011 - Neolithic Spain
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2011/10/24/1113061108.full.pdf+html
Cruciani et al 2007 -
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html

Noman
28-08-13, 09:02
It has to be because we have E before there were classic greeks, anyway, and a lot further in than italy.

RHAS
20-10-13, 23:39
Heracles and the Cretan Bull.

"Whistling merrily at his success so far, Heracles was then sent to capture the bull by Eurystheus as his seventh task. He sailed to Crete, whereupon the King, Minos, gave Heracles permission to take the bull away and offered him assistance, which Heracles denied because of pride,[1] as it had been wreaking havoc on Crete by uprooting crops and leveling orchard walls. Heracles sneaked up behind the bull and then used his hands to strangle it, and then shipped it back to Athens. Eurystheus, who hid in his pithos at first sight of the creature, wanted to sacrifice the bull to Hera, who hated Heracles. She refused the sacrifice because it reflected glory on Heracles. The bull was released and wandered into Marathon, becoming known as the Marathonian Bull.[1] Theseus would later sacrifice the bull to Athena and/or Apollo. Eurystheus then sent Heracles to bring back the man-eating Mares of Diomedes."
Cretan Bull - The Seventh Labour of Heracles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretan_Bull

"The most frequent haplogroups among the current population on Crete were: R1b3-M269 (17%), G2-P15 (11%), J2a1-DYS413 (9.0%), and J2a1h-M319 (9.0%). They identified J2a parent haplogroup J2a-M410 (Crete: 25.9%) with the first ancient residents of Crete during the Neolithic (8500 BCE – 4300 BCE) suggesting Crete was founded by a Neolithic population expansion from ancient Turkey/Anatolia."
The Minoans, DNA and all.
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/the-minoans-dna-and-all/

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/860635_500440700014090_1819551888_o.jpg
Heracles capturing the Cretan Bull. Detail of a Roman mosaic from Llíria (Spain).

"There is a distinct association of ancient J2 civilisations with bull worship"
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

RHAS
20-10-13, 23:42
Cretan/Minoan Bull

"When the moon has reached the constellation of Taurus, it has passed over an area that the ancients referred to as the sea - the region from Capricorn to the region containing Aries. It was referred to as the sea due to the high concentration of constellations identified as sea creatures within it, Aries being identified as a golden flying ram who flew over the sea. Crete is in a direct line from the natural harbor of Argo, a direction which due the shape of Argo's harbor, and surrounding coastline, requires that all ships initially take this course. Apart from being a bull, Taurus contains a very bright and red star (Aldebaran), meaning that many took it to be evil. Some forms of Greek mythology associated the constellation with the tame white bull, in some versions Zeus in disguise, that seduced Europa and took her to Crete (Minos), whereas others associate it with the white bull that fathered the Minotaur. The Cretan Bull which fathered the Minotaur was originally calm and sent from Poseidon, but king Minos whom it was sent to fell out of favor with Poseidon, and so in some versions of the story, Poseidon made the bull angry. The myth of Poseidon sending the bull (which seduced Minos' wife) may simply be an earlier version of the myth of Zeus seducing Europa, as in earlier Mycenean times, Poseidon had significantly more importance than Zeus. The change of gods was due to the replacement of the Mycenean culture and religion, with a later one favoring Zeus. Poseidon and Zeus, which have the same etymological origin (Poseidon deriving from Posei-Deion which means Lord God[citation needed], and Zeus deriving from Deus which also means God[citation needed]), may be the result of the parallel evolution of the same original god in separate cultures, one (Poseidon - who is also associated with horses) becoming associated more with the sea (due to change in the main source of trade), and thus eventually becoming noticeably different."
Cretan Bull
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretan_Bull

"It has been proposed that haplogroup subclade J-M410 was linked to populations on ancient Crete by examining the relationship between Anatolian, Cretan, and Greek populations from around early Neolithic sites in Crete."
Wikipedia.org - Haplogroup J2 M172.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172_(Y-DNA)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/901643_519990728059087_661792251_o.png

RHAS
20-10-13, 23:45
"The Mithraic Mysteries were a mystery religion practiced in the Roman Empire from about the 1st to 4th centuries AD. The name of the Persian god Mithra (proto-Indo-Iranian Mitra), adapted into Greek as Mithras, was linked to a new and distinctive imagery. Writers of the Roman Empire period referred to this mystery religion by phrases which can be anglicized as Mysteries of Mithras or Mysteries of the Persians; modern historians refer to it as Mithraism, or sometimes Roman Mithraism. The mysteries were popular in the Roman military."
Mithraic Mysteries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7uht5o1fJM

Alan
21-10-13, 03:45
Mithras.

"The tauroctony scene is the cult relief (i.e. the central icon) of the Mithraic Mysteries. It depicts Mithras killing a bull, hence the name 'tauroctony', given to the scene in modern times possibly after the Greek ταυροκτόνος (tauroktonos) "slaughtering bulls", which derives from ταῦρος (tauros) "bull" + κτόνος (ktonos) "murder", from κτείνω (kteinō), "I kill, slay"."
Tauroctony
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tauroctony

5993

"The Mithraic Mysteries were a mystery religion practiced in the Roman Empire from about the 1st to 4th centuries AD. The name of the Persian god Mithra (proto-Indo-Iranian Mitra), adapted into Greek as Mithras, was linked to a new and distinctive imagery. Writers of the Roman Empire period referred to this mystery religion by phrases which can be anglicized as Mysteries of Mithras or Mysteries of the Persians; modern historians refer to it as Mithraism, or sometimes Roman Mithraism. The mysteries were popular in the Roman military."
Mithraic Mysteries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ5eeQ_XKyQ

Mithra among Indo-Iranians and ancient Anatolians is the personification of the sun. But it is also often depicted with bulls.

adamo
21-10-13, 09:52
So Hercules is linked to bull worship...the Lydians had a heraklid dynasty....either the Cretans moved to Lydia and created the Carians, Lycians and such or vice-versa, or even from turkey to Crete and then back again from Crete to turkey; either way it's obvious the bull arrived from turkey (Chatal Hoyuk) and such places as bulls were first worshipped there and then from Crete which was also settled by Phoenicians according to that text, towards Mycenae and Peloponnesus....the first Cretan king "Minos", all this is proof of anatolians moving to Crete under Minoan culture and then expanding to the PeloponnesusPeloponnesus

adamo
21-10-13, 09:54
Seems rah a Greek god (Zeus) fell in love with a Phoenicians daughter, brought her to Crete,

RHAS
23-10-13, 23:00
Nandi.

"Nandi, is the name for the bull which serves as the mount (Sanskrit: Vahana) of the god Shiva and as the gate keeper of Shiva and Parvati, and in Hindu mythology. He is the chief guru of eighteen masters(18 siddhas) including Patanjali and Thirumular. Temples venerating Shiva display stone images of a seated Nandi, generally facing the main shrine. There are also a number of temples dedicated solely to Nandi."
Nandi Bull
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nandi_(bull)

"The J2 lineage originated in the northern portion of the Fertile Crescent where it later spread throughout central Asia, the Mediterranean, and south into India."
Kerchner.com - YDNA Haplogroup Descriptions & Information Links.
http://www.kerchner.com/haplogroups-ydna.htm

"Within India, J2a is more common among the upper castes and decreases in frequency with the cast level."
Eupedia.com, 2013.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gn9_ylNtnmM

http://www.dollsofindia.com/images/products/shiva-pictures/lord-shiva-sitting-on-bull-with-parvati-and-ganesha-QG46_l.jpg

RHAS
24-10-13, 01:41
"Çatalhöyük (Turkish pronunciation: [tʃaˈtaɫhøjyc]; also Çatal Höyük and Çatal Hüyük; çatal is Turkish for "fork", höyük for "mound") was a very large Neolithic and Chalcolithic proto-city settlement in southern Anatolia, which existed from approximately 7500 BC to 5700 BC, and flourished around 7000BC. It is the largest and best-preserved Neolithic site found to date. In July 2012, it was inscribed as a UNESCO World Heritage Site. Çatalhöyük is located overlooking the Konya Plain, southeast of the present-day city of Konya (ancient Iconium) in Turkey, approximately 140 km (87 mi) from the twin-coned volcano of Mount Hasan. The eastern settlement forms a mound which would have risen about 20 m (66 ft) above the plain at the time of the latest Neolithic occupation. There is also a smaller settlement mound to the west and a Byzantine settlement a few hundred meters to the east. The prehistoric mound settlements were abandoned before the Bronze Age. A channel of the Çarşamba river once flowed between the two mounds, and the settlement was built on alluvial clay which may have been favourable for early agriculture."
Çatalhöyük
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87atalh%C3%B6y%C3%BCk

"Bucranium, plural bucrania (Latin, from Greek βουκράνιον, referring to the skull of an ox) was a common form of carved decoration in Classical architecture used to fill the metopes between the triglyphs of the frieze of Doric temples. A bas-relief or painted decor consisting of a series of ox-skulls draped or decorated with garlands of fruit or flowers was a Roman motif drawn from marble altars, which have survived in some number; the motif was also later used on Renaissance, Baroque and Neoclassical buildings. The name is generally considered to be a reference to the practice of garlanding sacrificial oxen, the heads of which were displayed on the walls of the temples, a practice with a long history reaching back to the sophisticated Neolithic site of Çatalhöyük in eastern Anatolia, where cattle skulls were overlaid with white plaster."
Bucranium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucranium

"There is a distinct association of ancient J2 civilisations with bull worship. The oldest evidence of a cult of the bull can be traced back to Neolithic central Anatolia, notably at the sites of Çatalhöyük and Alaca Höyük. Bull depictions are omnipresent in Minoan frescos and ceramics in Crete. Bull-masked terracotta figurines and bull-horned stone altars have been found in Cyprus (dating back as far as the Neolithic, the first presumed expansion of J2 from West Asia)."
The Sacred Bull.
http://aratta.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/the-sacred-bull/

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Catal_H%C3%BCy%C3%BCk,_bull_heads.JPG

RHAS
24-10-13, 03:37
"Thus, it is possible to contemplate the existence of an ancient genetic trail represented by the Y-DNA J2 out of Near East to the Caucasus to the southern parts of Japan, Okinawa, where J2 haplotype 1 is found at 1.15%."
Japanese Mythology - Is there a deep sumerian connetion or layer to japanese history?
http://japanesemythology.wordpress.com/2011/10/26/is-there-a-deep-history-sumerian-connection-or-layer-to-japanese-history/

"Tōgyū (闘牛?) also known as ushi-zumo or Bull sumo, is a spectator sport native to Ryukyu Islands of Japan, especially in the Okinawa Prefecture. It is also held in other regions of Japan, such as Iwate Prefecture, Niigata Prefecture, Shimane Prefecture, Ehime Prefecture and Kagoshima Prefecture. Although sometimes known to Westerners as "Okinawan bullfighting", it is drastically different from the Spanish or Portuguese style of bullfighting where the matches are between a bull and a human, with blood being spilt. Tōgyū has more in common with northern Portugal's sport of chegas and the Swiss sport of cow fighting."
Tōgyū
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C5%8Dgy%C5%AB


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Fu_vT6njlw

Twilight
24-10-13, 07:21
Isnt the Egyption god Hathor depicted as a cow diety and well as a fertility god in this link source 11? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hathor , if yes since the ancient Egyptians unless otherwise were a mixture of Haplogroup.E and T, I am wondering if Haplogroup T helped spread the bull worshinping around. Afterall Haplogroup T is said to origionate in Mesopotamia.

RHAS
06-11-13, 03:30
Io

"Io /ˈaɪ.oʊ/ (Ancient Greek: Ἰώ [iːɔ̌ː]) was, in Greek mythology, a priestess of Hera in Argos, a nymph who was seduced by Zeus, who changed her into a heifer to escape detection. His wife Hera sent ever-watchful Argus Panoptes, with 100 eyes, to watch her, but Hermes was sent to distract the guardian and slay him. Heifer Io was loosed to roam the world, stung by a maddening gadfly sent by Hera, and wandered to Egypt, thus placing her descendant Belus in Egypt; his sons Cadmus (Cadmus was also named as a son of Belus' brother Agenor) and Danaus would then "return" to mainland Greece."
IO Mythology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Io_(mythology)

"The name comes from Greek Bosporos (Βόσπορος), which the ancient Greeks analysed as bous βοῦς 'ox' + poros πόρος 'means of passing a river, ford, ferry', thus meaning 'ox-ford', which is a reference to Io (mythology) from Greek mythology who was transformed into a cow and condemned to wander the earth until she crossed the Bosphorus where she met Prometheus."
Bosphoros.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosphorus

"Haplogroup J-M12 was associated with Neolithic Greece (ca. 8500 - 4300 BCE) and was reported to be found in modern Crete (3.1%) and mainland Greece (Macedonia 7.0%, Thessaly 8.8%, Argolis 1.8%) (King 2008)."
Wikipedia.org - Haplogroup J2 M172.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M172_(Y-DNA)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/Hermes_Io_Argos_Staatliche_Antikensammlungen_585.j pg/800px-Hermes_Io_Argos_Staatliche_Antikensammlungen_585.j pg

RHAS
12-11-13, 08:47
Attalids & Bullworship

"Timur Serdar and Demircin Sema authored a recent study on the Y chromosomes of Antalya, which is located on the southern coast of Anatolia. Haplogroup J2 was most frequent in this study of 75 unrelated males found at a frequency of 26.6%. The J2 data was consistent with an earlier study by Cinnioglu et al which found 24% J2 in southern Anatolia. Haplogroup T (K* in the study) was next most frequent at 13.3% and this data differed from Cinnioglu's data which found only 3.3% Haplogroup K in southern Anatolia. The first record of Antalya was as Attalia, a greek city founded approximately 150BC by Attalos II, King of Pergamon."
M172 Blog - Haplogroup J2, M172 in Antalya, Turkish Republic, 2009.
http://m172.blogspot.nl/2009/06/haplogroup-j2-m172-in-antalya-turkish.html (http://m172.blogspot.nl/2009/06/haplogroup-j2-m172-in-antalya-turkish.html)

He was the second son of Attalus I Soter and queen Apollonis, and ascended the throne first as co-ruler alongside his ailing brother Eumenes II in 160 BC, whose widow Stratonice of Pergamon he married in 158 BC upon Eumenes' death.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attalus_II_Philadelphus

"The victory brought Attalus legendary fame. A story arose, related by Pausanias, of an oracle who had foretold these events a generation earlier:
Then verily, having crossed the narrow strait of the Hellespont,
The devastating host of the Gauls shall pipe; and lawlessly
They shall ravage Asia; and much worse shall God do
To those who dwell by the shores of the sea
For a short while. For right soon the son of Cronos
Shall raise a helper, the dear son of a bull reared by Zeus
Who on all the Gauls shall bring a day of destruction."
Attalus I
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attalus_I

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Phrygians & Bullworship

"Several authors have proposed that the Indo-European language presently spoken by Armenians arose during the Bronze Age, when Indo-European speaking tribes from the Balkans and Greece invaded Anatolia and Transcaucasia, leading to the subsequent spread of their culture and language. In this study, we have detected a number of lineages that are prominent in the Balkans (I2*, I2b*, J2b1 and J2b2) at low levels throughout Ararat Valley, Gardman and Lake Van, the latter of which also contains haplogroups commonly associated with Bronze Age Greece (ie, J2a8-M319 (4.9%), and E1b1b1-M78 and its sublineages (3.9%)). While this may suggest genetic input from early Greek or Phrygian tribes, it is also possible that these low levels of Balkan lineages arrived in Armenia at a later time, such as during one of the many incursions into the area during the reign of the Macedonian, Roman and Byzantine empires."
Neolithic patrilineal signals indicate that the Armenian plateau was repopulated by agriculturalists.
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2011192a.html

"I-P37 and J-M12 are dated to 1,100BC and 1,200BC, at around the time that e.g. the Phrygians from the Balkans are believed to have migrated to Asia Minor. I-P37 and J-M12 reach their maxima in areas north of Greece where the Phrygians are said to have originated."
How Y-STR variance accumulates: a comment on Zhivotovsky, Underhill and Feldman (2006)
http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2008/07/...s-comment.html

"It was the "Great Mother", Cybele, as the Greeks and Romans knew her, who was originally worshiped in the mountains of Phrygia, where she was known as "Mountain Mother". In her typical Phrygian form, she wears a long belted dress, a polos (a high cylindrical headdress), and a veil covering the whole body. The later version of Cybele was established by a pupil of Phidias, the sculptor Agoracritus, and became the image most widely adopted by Cybele's expanding following, both in the Aegean world and at Rome. It shows her humanized though still enthroned, her hand resting on an attendant lion and the other holding the tympanon, a circular frame drum, similar to a tambourine. The Phrygians also venerated Sabazios, the sky and father-god depicted on horseback. Although the Greeks associated Sabazios with Zeus, representations of him, even at Roman times, show him as a horseman god. His conflicts with the indigenous Mother Goddess, whose creature was the Lunar Bull, may be surmised in the way that Sabazios' horse places a hoof on the head of a bull, in a Roman relief at the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston."
Phrygians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygians

adamo
12-11-13, 12:58
Clearly more studies need to be done on hg T. Considering it's found at 13% in the city of Antalya, 20% in samsoun, 13% of eastern Anatolian Kurds, 13-16% of Assyrians towards Anatolia; it's clearly present around turkey.

RHAS
12-11-13, 20:30
"Several authors have proposed that the Indo-European language presently spoken by Armenians arose during the Bronze Age, when Indo-European speaking tribes from the Balkans and Greece invaded Anatolia and Transcaucasia, leading to the subsequent spread of their culture and language. In this study, we have detected a number of lineages that are prominent in the Balkans (I2*, I2b*, J2b1 and J2b2) at low levels throughout Ararat Valley, Gardman and Lake Van, the latter of which also contains haplogroups commonly associated with Bronze Age Greece (ie, J2a8-M319 (4.9%), and E1b1b1-M78 and its sublineages (3.9%)). While this may suggest genetic input from early Greek or Phrygian tribes, it is also possible that these low levels of Balkan lineages arrived in Armenia at a later time, such as during one of the many incursions into the area during the reign of the Macedonian, Roman and Byzantine empires."
Neolithic patrilineal signals indicate that the Armenian plateau was repopulated by agriculturalists.
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2011192a.html

"I-P37 and J-M12 are dated to 1,100BC and 1,200BC, at around the time that e.g. the Phrygians from the Balkans are believed to have migrated to Asia Minor. I-P37 and J-M12 reach their maxima in areas north of Greece where the Phrygians are said to have originated."
How Y-STR variance accumulates: a comment on Zhivotovsky, Underhill and Feldman (2006)
http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2008/07/...s-comment.html

"It was the "Great Mother", Cybele (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybele), as the Greeks and Romans knew her, who was originally worshiped in the mountains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain) of Phrygia, where she was known as "Mountain Mother". In her typical Phrygian form, she wears a long belted dress, a polos (a high cylindrical headdress), and a veil covering the whole body. The later version of Cybele was established by a pupil of Phidias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phidias), the sculptor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sculpture) Agoracritus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agoracritus), and became the image most widely adopted by Cybele's expanding following, both in the Aegean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_civilization) world and at Rome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome). It shows her humanized though still enthroned, her hand resting on an attendant lion and the other holding the tympanon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timpani), a circular frame drum, similar to a tambourine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambourine).
The Phrygians also venerated Sabazios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabazios), the sky and father-god (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_(male_deity)) depicted on horseback. Although the Greeks associated Sabazios with Zeus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus), representations of him, even at Roman times, show him as a horseman god. His conflicts with the indigenous Mother Goddess, whose creature was the Lunar Bull (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Bull), may be surmised in the way that Sabazios' horse places a hoof on the head of a bull, in a Roman relief (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_sculpture#Relief_sculptures) at the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museum_of_Fine_Arts,_Boston)."

adamo
12-11-13, 21:04
Hg F is found in 12% of Indian males; a global high. Sicily has the exact same F frequency.

adamo
12-11-13, 21:06
Tuscany oddly has 7-8% of it and previous studies had found a whopping 20% for northern Asturias (Lol).

RHAS
04-04-14, 02:55
Franks and Bull worship.

"Based on the results from the Benelux Y-DNA Project it can be inferred that the Frank`s main paternal lineage was haplogroup R1b-U106, and that they belong overwhemingly the Z381 subclade. They also possesed other typical Germanic lineages like I1, I2a2a and R1a (L664 and Z283 subclades), although their ratio to R1b-U106 would have been 1:2, 1:6 and 1:7 respectivly. Like modern Scandinavians, the Franks also probably carried a substantial amount of R1b-P312 lineages, including the l21, U152 and DF27 subclades, as well as a minority of E-V13, G2a3b1 and J2. Since all these lineages are also typical of popultion of Celtic or Italic (including Roman) descent, is not clear at present what proportion of these lineages in the Benelux can be attributed to the Gauls and the Romans, as opposed to the Franks."
Eupedia.com - A brief history of the Franks.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/franki...n_europe.shtml (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/frankish_influence_modern_europe.shtml)

"In contrast to many other Germanic tribes, no Merovingians claimed to be descended from Wodan. Instead, the sacred tradition of a cart pulled by bulls seems to be present from the early Merovingians on. The bulls that pulled the cart were taken as special animals, and according to Salian law the theft of those animals would impose a high sanction. In the grave of Childeric I (died 481) was found the head of a bull, craftily made out of gold."
Wikipedia - Frankish Mythology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankish_mythology

"The Quinotaur (Lat. Quinotaurus) is a mythical sea creature mentioned in the 7th century Frankish Chronicle of Fredegar. Referred to as "bestea Neptuni Quinotauri similis", (the beast of Neptune which resembles a Quinotaur) it was held to have fathered Meroveus by attacking the wife of the Frankish king Chlodio and thus to have sired the line of Merovingian kings. The name translates from Latin as "bull with five horns", whose attributes have commonly been interpreted as the incorporated symbols of the sea god Neptune with his trident, and the horns of a mythical bull or Minotaur. The suggested rape and subsequent family relation of this monster attributed to Frankish mythology correspond to both the Indo-European etymology of Neptune (from PIE '*nepots', "grandson" or "nephew", compare also the Indo-Aryan 'Apam Napat', "grandson/nephew of the water") and to bull-related fertility myths in Greek mythology, where for example the Phoenician princess Europa was abducted by the god Zeus, in the form of a white bull, that swam her to Crete."
Wikipedia - Quintotaur.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinotaur

https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/1555549_677488842309274_930101075_n.jpg
(Image: Quinotaur)

RHAS
15-05-14, 03:55
Etruscans and cattle (Bulls).

"Occurrence of J2-M172 Y-chromosomes in Tuscany has been related to the Etruscan heritage of the region."
Uniparental Markers of Contemporary Italian Population Reveals Details on Its Pre-Roman Heritage.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0050794

"Nice, France: The long-running controversy about the origins of the Etruscan people appears to be very close to being settled once and for all, a geneticist will tell the annual conference of the European Society of Human Genetics today (Sunday June 17). Professor Alberto Piazza, from the University of Turin, Italy, will say that there is overwhelming evidence that the Etruscans, whose brilliant civilisation flourished 3000 years ago in what is now Tuscany, were settlers from old Anatolia (now in southern Turkey)."
European Society of Human Genetics - Ancient Etruscans were immigrants from Anatolia (now Turkey) - geneticists find the final piece in the puzzle
https://secure.medacad.org/eshg.org/13.0.html

The mystery of Etruscan origins: novel clues from Bos taurus mitochondrial DNA.
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/274/1614/1175.abstract


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNbhVFdC_Qc

Subtitled version:
http://dotsub.com/view/5978f5f8-ba84...f-84d06e261684

"There is a distinct association of ancient J2 civilisations with bull worship."
Eupedia.com, 2011.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

http://www.maravot.com/Etruscan_mural_bull.gif
Etruscan mural depiction of a Bull, from the Tomb of the Bulls in Tarquinia.

RHAS
17-05-14, 04:58
Taurus (constellation), Bull worship & Farming
http://img.bhs4.com/CE/B/CEBD18723DC2CBFA8F45B1D16EF2AAC9CE0D4B2E_large.jpg
"Taurus is one of the constellations of the zodiac, which means it is crossed by the plane of the ecliptic. Its name is a Latin word meaning "bull", and its astrological symbol is a stylized bull's head: Taurus.svg (Unicode ♉). Taurus is a large and prominent constellation in the northern hemisphere's winter sky. It is one of the oldest constellations, dating back to at least the Early Bronze Age when it marked the location of the Sun during the spring equinox. Taurus came to symbolize the bull in the mythologies of Ancient Babylon, Egypt and Greece. .... Taurus marked the point of vernal (spring) equinox in the Chalcolithic and the Early Bronze Age, from about 4000 BC to 1700 BC, after which it moved into the neighboring constellation Aries"
Taurus (constellation).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurus_(constellation)

Farmers Almanac - Here comes the spring equinox.
http://www.farmersalmanac.com/astronomy/2012/03/19/here-comes-the-spring-equinox/

"23andMe has a Y chromosome marker on its custom chip, rs34126399, which captures the spread of agriculture from the Near East to Europe. The G state at rs34126399 is found in most individuals carrying paternal haplogroup J2a, whose origin can ultimately be traced to Turkey 15,000 to 20,000 years ago."
The Origin of Farming in Europe: A View from the Y Chromosome.
http://blog.23andme.com/23andme-and-you/genetics-101/the-origin-of-farming-in-europe-a-view-from-the-y-chromosome/

"Although the overall age of J2a Y-microsatellite variation exceeds the appearance of agriculture in the Indus Valley (~6 KYA), the current lack of informative subdivision within HG J2a in southwestern Asia prevents analysis of such potential layers, which are currently more evident in Anatolia, southeastern Europe, and the Mediterranean. In these regions, HGs J2a1b-M67(xM92) and J2a1b1-M92 have spatial and temporal characteristics consistent with the spread of early farmers and Bronze Age cultures (Di Giacomo et al. 2004)."
Polarity and Temporality of High-Resolution Y-Chromosome Distributions in India Identify Both Indigenous and Exogenous Expansions and Reveal Minor Genetic Influence of Central Asian Pastoralists.
http://repository.ias.ac.in/21283/1/308.pdf