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RHAS
29-08-13, 01:47
The Abduction of Europa: mosaic, Byblos, 3rd century A.D . National Museum of Beirut Collection. According to the Greek legend Europa’s brother Cadmus went looking for his kidnapped sister who is depicted on the mosaic being whisked away on the back of Zeus disguised as a bull. The story goes that in his search for Europe Cadmos transmitted the Phoenician alphabet to the Hellenes.

https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/577720_510383479019812_1389822478_n.jpg

"Cadmus or Kadmos (Ancient Greek: Κάδμος), in Greek mythology, was a Phoenician prince, the son of king Agenor and queen Telephassa of Tyre and the brother of Phoenix, Cilix and Europa. He was originally sent by his royal parents to seek out and escort his sister Europa back to Tyre after she was abducted from the shores of Phoenicia by Zeus. Cadmus founded the Greek city of Thebes, the acropolis of which was originally named Cadmeia in his honour. Cadmus was credited by the ancient Greeks (Herodotus is an example) with introducing the original Alphabet or Phoenician alphabet -- phoinikeia grammata, "Phoenician letters"—to the Greeks, who adapted it to form their Greek alphabet."
Cadmus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmus

"The authors found a weak – but significant – genetic signature among their samples that could not be explained by chance. Many of the samples belonged to a very specific branch of haplogroup J2, which the authors believe points back to distinct migrations by Phoenician traders from the Middle East into Europe and North Africa more than 3,000 years ago."
Ripples in the Mediterranean: Tracing the Genetic Origins of the Phoenicians.
http://blog.23andme.com/ancestry/ripples-in-the-mediterranean-tracing-the-genetic-origins-of-the-phoenicians/

"The ancient Greeks and Phoenicians were the main driving forces behind the spread of J2 around the western and southern Mediterranian."
Eupedia.com, 2013.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml

"In 2004, two geneticists educated at Harvard University and leading scientists of the National Geographic Genographic Project, Dr. Pierre Zalloua and Dr. Spencer Wells, identified "the haplogroup of the Phoenicians" as haplogroup J2, with avenues open for future research."
Familypedia.com - Phoenicia.
http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Phoenicia

"Occurrence of J2-M172 Y-chromosomes in Tuscany has been related to the Etruscan heritage of the region."
Uniparental Markers of Contemporary Italian Population Reveals Details on Its Pre-Roman Heritage.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0050794

"There is a distinct association of ancient J2 civilisations with bull worship."
Eupedia.com, 2011.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

RHAS
29-08-13, 01:49
Spread of the alphabet

https://sphotos-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/484321_510285402362953_1312221250_n.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_alphabet

"Phoenician became one of the most widely used writing systems, spread by Phoenician merchants across the Mediterranean world, where it was assimilated by many other cultures and evolved."
Phoenician Alphabet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet

"The Greek alphabet was developed by a Greek with first-hand experience of contemporary Phoenician script and, almost as quickly as it was established in the Greek mainland was rapidly re-exported, eastwards to Phrygia, where a similar script was devised, and westwards with Euboean or West Greek traders, where the Etruscans adapted the Greek alphabet to their own language."
History of the Greek Alphabet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Greek_alphabet

"The Latin alphabet is the main writing system in use in the Western world and is the most widely used alphabetic writing system in the world. It is the standard script of the English language and is often referred to simply as "the alphabet" in English. It is a true alphabet which originated in the 7th century BC in Italy and has changed continually over the last 2500 years. It has roots in the Semitic alphabet and its offshoot alphabets, the Phoenician, Greek, and Etruscan."
History of the Latin Alphabet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Latin_alphabet

RHAS
29-08-13, 01:54
The English word alphabet came into Middle English from the Late Latin word alphabetum, which in turn originated in the Greek ἀλφάβητος (alphabētos), from alpha and beta, the first two letters of the Greek alphabet. Alpha and beta in turn came from the first two letters of the Phoenician alphabet, and originally meant ox and house respectively.

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RHAS
17-05-14, 01:32
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1.0-9/10382817_749046828486808_4817964669708753458_n.jpg

See also:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29476-Haplogroup-J2-Greeks-Phoenicians-and-Mesopotamians/page3

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1611-Haplogroup-J2-and-the-spread-of-the-Alphabet

Salmon
21-09-15, 21:10
The Phoenicians and Carthaginians were traders originating from J2 dominated areas.

Writing began out of necessity. They had to count resources and keep track of them.

If the Greeks picked up the alphabet from the Phoenicians it was because Phoenician was a language of business.

I don't think the Greeks may have played a big role in spreading J2. It was just Phoenicians and people in J2 ethnic groups absorbed into Roman civilization.

LeBrok
21-09-15, 23:36
The Phoenicians and Carthaginians were traders originating from J2 dominated areas.

Writing began out of necessity. They had to count resources and keep track of them.

If the Greeks picked up the alphabet from the Phoenicians it was because Phoenician was a language of business.

I don't think the Greeks may have played a big role in spreading J2. It was just Phoenicians and people in J2 ethnic groups absorbed into Roman civilization.
Migration of J2 started way earlier. We already recovered J2 in Balkans from Early Bronze Age, (or was it Late Neolithic?), 3,000 years before Roman Empire.

Yetos
22-09-15, 06:44
The Phoenicians and Carthaginians were traders originating from J2 dominated areas.

Writing began out of necessity. They had to count resources and keep track of them.

If the Greeks picked up the alphabet from the Phoenicians it was because Phoenician was a language of business.

I don't think the Greeks may have played a big role in spreading J2. It was just Phoenicians and people in J2 ethnic groups absorbed into Roman civilization.

J2 is much older.
J2b is found at Hungary milleniums before
and about J2a opinions divided among iron age and copper age,

Salmon
23-09-15, 09:50
I've read about J2s and Es in the Neolithic but these populations may not be responsible for the majority of J2s in Western Europe. They may have no connection to most J2s in Europe today, the middle ages, or those J2s that spread the alphabet. From some of the papers I've read, the J2s in some of these Neolithic populations were a very small percentage.

We also have to keep in mind that J2a outnumbers J2b in Western Europe and that J2b is still extant in the Middle East. J2a appears to outnumber J2b in Italy and Greece.

Any sort of population moving to Italy or Greece from a Phoenician, Carthaginian, or Levantine civilization could have carried J2a and J2b.

The Phoenicians/Carthaginians were around for a long time and founded settlements all over the Mediterranean, including Western Europe. The alphabet was their invention. They were incredibly mobile. The popularized the alphabet, spread it because of their importance to trade and life in the Mediterranean. The Carthaginians were absorbed by the Romans.

Looking at history we know that the Romans had campaigns deep into J2 dominated territory in North Africa and the Levant. The Roman Empire adopted a Semitic religion and may have drawn Semitic Christians into Italy and Greece carrying J2a and J2b from the Levant and North Africa. There have been J2 people throughout history that were affected by the Romans, changed by the Romans, and absorbed by the Romans.

As for the Greeks spreading J2? Doubt it. The Phoenicians spread out a lot and their descendants were absorbed by Romans. The other J2 populations from the Levant were affected by Romans. The Romans were responsible for moving J2s around due to their military campaigns.

LeBrok
23-09-15, 16:58
As for the Greeks spreading J2? Doubt it. The Phoenicians spread out a lot and their descendants were absorbed by Romans. The other J2 populations from the Levant were affected by Romans. The Romans were responsible for moving J2s around due to their military campaigns.
Nobody says that J2 didn't migrate during Roman empire, but claiming that majority did is just a pure speculation. Here is one example how you could overestimate population movements during Roman times.

Here is a map of Italo-Celtic Y DNA, a dominant as in legionaries and ruling elite of Romans and Western Europe. Can you tell us how much of it spread to Balkans and Middle East? Well, anything below 5% obviously, and not even few hot spots.
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Celtic_Europe.gif

Salmon
28-09-15, 20:01
Nobody says that J2 didn't migrate during Roman empire, but claiming that majority did is just a pure speculation. Here is one example how you could overestimate population movements during Roman times.

Here is a map of Italo-Celtic Y DNA, a dominant as in legionaries and ruling elite of Romans and Western Europe. Can you tell us how much of it spread to Balkans and Middle East? Well, anything below 5% obviously, and not even few hot spots.
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Celtic_Europe.gif

You're just focusing on one type of R1b but let's take a closer look...

This may have something to do with how the Romans divided up land and managed the provinces.

The Roman provinces in Gaul were important food producers that were not in the hands of highly civilized groups. Rome sent Roman citizens out to develop these lands, build irrigation, sow wheat, build infrastructure, etc. Roman soldiers were given land in Gaul as reward. Hispania was a popular destination for retired Roman soldiers. The relationship between Gaul and Rome was closer than those between Rome and other provinces. Rome had a bigger impact on Gaul than North Africa or the Levant. When Rome collapsed much of those J2 areas ditched much of the picked up Roman elements. Spain and France are dominated by speakers of Romance languages to this day.

You also have to take a look at the spread of R1b as a whole. Romans Romanized Germanic and Celtic groups all over Western Europe. They were integrated into the legions. The saturation of R1b all over Europe is very high. R1b is present in the middle east and North Africa.

As for J2 in Italy today. You can't underestimate the Phoenicians/Carthaginians, Edict of Caracalla, the lure of Roman citizenship, J2 migrations due to war, the Jewish diaspora, and several waves of Middle Eastern migration into Europe due to things like Christianization. There were likely J2 soldiers in the legion that gained citizenship and moved to Italy to take advantage of their Roman citizenship. If you were a subject of the Roman Empire outside of Rome you wanted to live there. If you grew up in Rome as a peasant, you probably wanted a plot of land in Gaul.